For those watching the CSPAN2 kabuki where Kit Bond questions Saxby Chambliss about the complete perfect awesomeness of the Intelligence Committee FISA bill that would only be tarnished by the consideration of any Democratic amendments (all of which must now require 60 votes), you might find this link helpful.
Durbin wants to know if they are actually saying that all votes in the Senate must now require 60 votes.
Kit Bond says…well yeah, kinda. Because if we don’t, the terrorists win.
DURBIN: I’ve been here for 10 years, and somehow the republic survived without needing 60 votes to pass any amendment. If that’s what you’re suggesting, let’s vote on a rules change. Let’s see if you have the votes to do this, beeatch.
(Note to K.J. Lopez — I think it’s "nutroots," not "nutsroots" — jh)
jayt: "Why is Kit Bond still speaking? Happy Hour started an hour ago."
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Hail Jane.
‘allo?
Make the GOP object to the amendments, and then they get the 60 vote margin they seek.
why do most of the republican senators sound drunk and make no sense?
We won’t vote on anything the Prezdinent won’t sign into law, so take your amendments and shove it.
The Dems should just walk out. Shut the place down, let the FISA bill revert back, and don’t set foot in there until 1/20/09.
FU KITT
No roll call votes to be had tonight.
Nap time.
Works for me.
STFU KITT
Durbin – I ask for UC that “morning business” be extended to 6:30 (P.M.).
Who says that Congress lives in another
time zoneworld?Leave the Pukes blowing in the wind…enough is enough.
you are a very sensible person!!!!!yes you are
Because they make no sense for reasons including but not limited to that they’re drunk?
This has been another episode of…
Bond is really being sarcastic, “glad to take a break from the frenetic pace of voting.”
At any rate, morning business until 6:30, and no votes for the rest of the day. We may hear the arrangement for handling FISA (amendments, time agreements, vote margins, etc.) later tonight, or not. The 15 day extension will not be offered for passage today. Not a big deal, that, I see the extension as standing alone and separate at this point, from negotiating S.2248.
Aye.
Bond back to US-person-abroad-to-non-US-person-abroad. What’s up with that?
KIT YOU ARE a gasbag…sit down already
Aw never mind, he’s just jawboning. All over the map now.
How about we schedule the vote for extending PAA until Monday? ;-)
beeatch? is that B*tch? Seriously, with Durbin talking procedure we are beginning to sound like a majority.
Why is Kit Bond still speaking? Happy Hour started an hour ago.
What a patriot… (or is he just a guy with a flask?)
Kit your fullve it…Benedict Arnold was the first
Forgive me for prolonging the prior thread:
In response to cboldt @ 174
following regular order would get to the same end-point.
Cboldt, this is where I think you are ahead of the rest of us. You have been very forthcoming about not believing in much of government and not liking politicians. I hope you are not suggesting that there is no point to our fighting this fight.
Why does “regular order” mean we are going to lose anyway? Because fewer than 50 Senators currently are willing to vote against retroactive immunity? We have identified the 15 Blue Dogs. How many votes do we need out of those 15 to get past the 50-vote threshold? Isn’t it possible that in the next five days we can move at least enough to get past 50?
BEEATCH; YAY Jane
ok Kit needs his Aricept,he is drifting
I do hear some hiccups in the back of Bond’s throat. And some of that slurring on his Rs, like “geogafical . . . geogarphical.” Can’t even get out “protracted,” came out “protacted.” Lush.
This from over at http://www.discourse.net Michael Froomkin (Dan’s brother)
Would Telco Immunity Be a Takings Clause Violation?
Prof. Anthony Sebok has a really interesting article up at Findlaw: in Is It Constitutional for the Senate to Retroactively Immunize From Civil Liability the Telecoms That Provided the Government with Information About Customers’ Communications? he argues that the proposal to give retroactive immunity to telecom companies who illegally wiretapped their customers may be an unconstitutional uncompensated taking as regards plaintiffs in currently pending claims.
Without doing some research, I don’t know the law well enough in this area to form an opinion, but it’s intriguing and I’d welcome comments from those who know the area.
Posted by Michael at 03:54 PM | Permanent Link | post to del.icio.us
Add your comment: Acquiescence (0) | TechnoLinks
Law: Constitutional Law
It’s been a long time since I studied the Constitution, or civics. But I thought one of the “jobs” of the VP was to preside and cast a vote to break a tie when Senatorial vote-casting was evenly split. Requiring a 60-vote minimum for passage of legislation, including amendments, pre-empts the duties of the VP, doesn’t it? Looking for some educational insight. Thanks.
PAck up your KIT lier go home asshole sucker
i just hope the dems keep their resolve a little bit longer
NO UC!!! Wake up Chris. Don’t let this airhead get away with anything.
because we dont need to move foward
without WHAT ,you mendacious piglet
Merciful heaven. Bond has shut up.
Shorter Bond: This delay is unreasonable. We must destroy American civil liberties now!
Amen.
…airhead…
you’re such a kind soul…
Why did Bond threaten to make a UC request on 60 votes for amendments when obviously there will be objection?
Ahh…Salazar talking about bipartisanship…
has salazar not noticed that the stim package doesn’t actually help the homeowners of colorado?
He is not and never has been that smart.
Hi, Pups!
Wow, Jane. You and the front-pagers and the mod-squad and the back-stagers are workin’ like Sherpas this week. THANK YOU!
Oh, and the video on good faith negotiations? Priceless. 707 stuff.
FunnyD
Thanks everyone for watching CSPAN so I don’t have to…
cboldt, thank you for your answer to my run-on question, downstairs @186
bottom line, cboldt thinks Feingold cannot get 50 votes for his amendment to strip amnesty (retroactive immunity), so we would have an even enough tougher time to get 60 votes to end GOP obstructions and force a vote on Feingold’s amendment.
you can tell he loves pontification,and the sound of his own voice
I think there are several things he’s missed
Okay I’m using that.
jeez a look at that Senate is very sad…these are Americas best? oy
Do we have a rundown of where the votes may be on his amendment?
don’t they all?
Occupational hazard. (mine suffers from the same malady)
the idiot son asked them….oh wow…get a life Salazar
Kit is another undead
A duplicate from the earlier thread …
I hope you are not suggesting that there is no point to our fighting this fight.
Not at all. I just think that the outcome is foregone, and what remains to be negotiated between the elite Senators is which of them will vote which way. Like any clique, there’s some alliances, and some backstabbing. And, all of them crave reelection, so they are somewhat susceptible to public pressure.
Why does “regular order” mean we are going to lose anyway?
I was just using that as shorthand for forcing the Senate to use the “objection – cloture” tool, instead of the expedient “60 vote margin on the amendment” agreement on the front end.
In order to strip immunity from the bill, an outcome that I think is proper, correct, and would represent a glimmer of honesty in government, the anti-amnesty faction needs to have 60 votes to pass the Feingold amendment. Otherwise, the phony remedy set up by Rockefeller/Bond will pass the Senate.
The reason it needs 60 votes to pass it, is that if there is NOT an agreement to 60 votes up front, then there will be objection to voting on it. And it takes cloture to get around that objection, and to the simple majority up or down vote.
I’m not sure the Feingold amendment would get 50 votes.
—
And just to “add” or clarify, I think the Feingold amendment has fewer than 50 proponents. That’s tough to swallow, but I think it’s true.
My comment about needing 60 votes to surmount objection, and then majority to pass, was just a clinical description of the regular process, not a prediction as to outcome.
Salazar is teh stooooooooooooooooooooopit
What was that quote from The Talented Mr. Ripley again?:
mini darth?
What can be so damning that these GOPS would sacrifice their careers for this? Have they been a party to something so heinous that they know they will never be elected again, or perhaps even free to walk the streets again if it is discovered?
It must be a great crime. One beyond being an agent of another country like Joe LieberIsraelUberalles representing Israel first, his state, fourth, maybe 10th on the list. Denny has a problem with Turkey, both consumption and bribery involving state secrets.
It does appear these “patriotic manly men” have sold their holes to the people they claim we are fighting, and don’t want anyone to know. There is little else that they could think they were hiding at this point, unless martial law is in our future.
Salazar wasn’t aware of the House bill containing a 15 day extension (or maybe he was, and was just testing the opposition), and asked UC to pass S.2556, which IIRC, is a 30 day extension. S.2557 is an extension to July 2009.
inbreds all!
The Dems should just walk out. Shut the place down, let the FISA bill revert back, and don’t set foot in there until 1/20/09.
This statement is interesting me more and more. I don’t agree that it can be done per se but I think that it does bring forth the question of what Harry Reid *could* do…
Why doesn’t he constrict the business of the Senate to the business of the majority – and let the Repub’s pound sand?
As I understand it, the Majority leader has a whole *shitload* of power. How about using it, Harry, you old (supposed) boxer you?
Hey Harry – pick a fight – be somebody!
No, Salzar, the innocence of America was “broken” way before 9/11.
what the hell is he talking about?
They don’t care if they get reelected. They have all been cashing in along the way and will continue to do so thanks to wingnut welfare as long as they play by the wingnut rules. Ergo . . .
Teh talking points are hurting my head more than “the innocents” were hurt!
One minute he sounds like Bushco, the next minute someone slips something from here into his speech…
Harry could have scuttled this long ago had he wanted to.
He didn’t.
if only that were the explanation/excuse
tell Ken chimp/darth killed a cool million in eyerak
We know Rockefeller is opoosed to the Feingold amendment, and sill all the GOP Senators, likely Lieberman too. Add in a few others, Nelson (NE), Nelson (FL) who will at least be fooled into believing the Rockefeller approach “works justice,” won’t reject the Rockefeller approach.
I don’t see a bare majority. So, demanding 60 votes seems like piling on, and that sort of attitude has a way of becoming payback.
Durbin: way to step up doood.
Salazar is inspiring me.. Apparently it is still possible to be elected to be a United States Senator with no discernible personality whatsoever…
Jane, I’m sure it gets old, but you are a Goddess in all the best senses of the word, and your translations in Parts III and IV drew snot, both of them. STILL LOLing.
All the best to you and yours.
so what is he advocating?
Embarrassingly basic question: If a given vote is not under a 60 vote rule, then is it a 50 vote threshold, vs. is it a simple majority of those Senators present?
hey you can be pretzledent with far less
OT – Jane – thanks again for all your work on Fisa
OT-2. Rasmussen has Connecticut at 40% Obama and 40% Clinton (I don’t know the breakdown of Edwards and undecdeds.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/
I like the way the Dems are venturing out onto the treacherous, thin ice of opposition, only to find themselves on firm footing, with lots of sunlight and fresh air. Maybe it hasn’t been necessary to hide in the underbrush for the past six years…
Hi folks…
I believe Salazar is selling PAA and the way he is doing is by boring his audience to the point of a hypnotic coma by his flat monotone descriptive tones….
If a given vote is not under a 60 vote rule, then is it a 50 vote threshold, vs. is it a simple majority of those Senators present?
Simple majority of Senator present and voting, in order to pass.
Salazar hearts Feinstein amendment.
Ugh.
DiFi’s sell-out carefully disguised.
Now Salazar is moving on to amendments he supports, Cardin’s (ok), DiFi’s (crap), not sure what else he likes. Notably absent: Feingold’s.
I tend to agree with others here that we should do nothing with this current FISA bill & just let it sunset.
What happens is that the original FISA bill goes back into enforce & bushco needs to get a warrant from the FISA court 72 hours from his initial eavesdropping.
What is wrong with that???? Unless you are creating such a massive data base on all of us that they couldn’t turn it around in 72 hours.
I say do nothing. This bill has no impact on the war on terror.
The reason for talking about having 50 votes is that, if a faction has that strength, then it can’t be overcome (in the Senate) on a simple majority vote. If a faction is short of 50 votes, it is at risk of being beat.
Question for Ken Salazar? What part of the Fourth Amendment is unclear to you?
On Connecticut -11percent for Edwards. And this is a post SC poll. Pretty amazing shift and remember the NYT came out for Hillary. If this is happening in Ct., I am sure things are shifting in NY and Ma.
Thanks, CB.
So… if enough of our guys stick around, and enough of their guys wander off for retreats or Happy Hour, then…
well another long winded ass
Salazar wants a “good faith belief” standard applied to the telecoms as to whether or not they should be immune.
As a criminal defense lawyer, I heartily applaud, and hereby move that the same standard be applied to every single allegation of criminal activity, on every level and in every state, from this day forward.
I’ve got a lot of clients who could develop some “good faith belief” in a fuckin’ heartbeat…
Legalize Regulations
i have sad for years……open the prison gates…laws ,what laws?
Murkowski is actually making a decent suggestion, to eliminate the 5-month waiting period for Social Security disability for persons diagnosed with terminal illnesses. I actually know about Social Security disability, used to be my law practice.
What is wrong with that???? Unless you are creating such a massive data base on all of us that they couldn’t turn it around in 72 hours.
The massive database relates to international calls, the TSP if you will. The TSP either isn’t workable with court oversight, or the minimization rules (eliminating from the database, all calls that don’t raise suspicion) aren’t being followed.
If PAA sunsets, the administration will howl that the Democrats want the government to get warrants for foreign-to-foreign communications.
So… if enough of our guys stick around, and enough of their guys wander off for retreats or Happy Hour, then…
Heheh. No, not likely. The Senate (rightly) makes a practice of insuring each Senator has an opportunity to vote. All votes are scheduled, none happen by surprise.
as expected but a little sooner then I thought, they are letting the “terror” dogs out again withut a leach;
what a maggot
“Why is Kit Bond still speaking? Happy Hour started an hour ago.” ~ Jayt
LMAO!
to which the democrats have to respond;
“what a moron, the terrorists have been fulfilling every fantasy they’ve had because the republicans were in office
the LAST thing they want to see is the party will do something about terrorism instead of pillaging the treasure of the middle east”
that will shut that maggot’s pie hole pronto
I emphasize that I have no direct knowledge of this, but: If they’re just hoovering-up all the foreign communications and then later extracting from that database with targeted filtering, then there is no minimization occurring at all. They would have to redefine minimization to apply to the extraction process, not the gathering process, in order to become compliant.
The longer this has gone on, the stronger Dodd’s position is. They are clearly trying to put pressure on the Senate, but I think that delay is good.
OT Which Senator/s are proposing lifting the cap on the tax rebate? Just heard Sen. Conrad blasting…saying $1000 in Bill Gates pocket, in Donald Trump’s pocket will not stimulate the economy. As usual, the media reports not enough….
i swear… if the lake is THE PLACE!!! its sooo amazing here – and this slow one is learning quite a bit of legal stuff ;o} someone stop me before i hang out a shingle hehehehehe
fractal would you email me please
texbetsy at g mail
did you see the tile of his book?
Bwahashahahahahahaa…….at the bottom it says Defending America at the United Nations
he is so very insanely delusional
Is that what Bolten is saying? Well, that’s interesting, because America’s terrorists are going after town officials in Brattleboro, Vermont in defense of Bush and The Dickster…
http://www.timesargus.com/apps…..003/NEWS02
expect to hear of that… al-qaeda rooting for dems…. its fear all over again….
Brown and Dorgan playing the game that the 30-Somethings like to do late at night on the House floor. Kabuki, yes, but our kabuki.
We could spin this to mean: al-Qaida wants peace in the world, the Dems do too, but the American republicans do not.
See? ;-)
Bless his heart, Dorgan needs a Hollywood rug maker.
ooops – left out the word more
the man was never confirmed and he has the gumption to write a book about his time there
god the news is unwatchable
AND he’s still angry about it… that chip on his shoulder is HUGE!
OT – Does anyone know more about this?
GOP Legislator Predicts Bond Resignation
Submitted by Howard Beale on Wed, 01/23/2008 – 10:59am. Blunt-Kinder Administration GOP Infighting MO’s Congressional Delegation
‘Buried halfway down in a St. Joseph News-Press story today about reaction to the Blunt announcement comes this bold gem of a prediction:
Rep. Jim Guest, R-King City, predicts that U.S. Sen. Kit Bond, R-Missouri, also will step down soon for health reasons. If U.S. Rep. Roy Blunt, Matt Blunt’s father, is appointed to the senatorial post, Mr. Guest said he believes the current Missouri governor will go after the congressional seat.
Perhaps Kit Bond himself would care to comment on the record about the nature of the “health reasons” that have fellow Republicans speculating openly in the newspaper that he will “step down” from his United States Senate seat?’
http://www.firedupmissouri.com
if he were delusional then I would possibly forgive his insane depravity, he’s not delusional, he knows he is a lying sack of feces and he knows his policies facilitate the terrorists and the enemies against our country
he is an insane sociopath, not an insane delusional
i know ,but i wont nit pick this very good man
shadenfreude FOR EVAH…he is a cretin
Somebody should call Bolton on his apparent shewed vision of the apparent Mullahs in the Middle East love affair with the possibility of a Democratic President….
Damn….
Maybe we should also take some sort of survey of the type of effective diplomat Bolton was at the United Nations by individuals who worked with him there during his tenure…
Anonymously, of course…
Oops, coorect link
http://www.firedupmissouri.com…..esignation
you are correct!upon reflection
to which each and every democrat has to laugh in the face of whoever says it and they have to give it back ten fold squared
Probably published by Regnery. They run a wingnut publishing outfit that prints books for wingnut donors to buy in bulk that no one reads.
i am off to swim. back later.
NBOBODY WANTED the staple throwing psycho there….why write a book about your UNPOPULARITY?
Wow, Floridians are voting for more wars and more bombing…unbelievable.
I’m probably misunderstanding you but I think looseheadprop has covered this and that they have had the ability for years
And if there’s any question about the technical details involved in having a database and being able to filter through it (datamining) I can assure you they do have the ability – don’t have time to dig up the links right now
as an ex floridian,im not surprised….extremely ill informed shallow peeps,their cars,their tans their McMansions ,screw the Everglades or the enviorment!
Hmm, I came to the Lake via Steve Clemons (TWN) when he was leading the fight against Bolton’s confirmation. Thankfully, Bolton’s time has come and gone. What a pathetic figure he was…and still is.
Firedoglake is still here…and going strong.
If they’re just hoovering-up all the foreign communications and then later extracting from that database with targeted filtering, then there is no minimization occurring at all. They would have to redefine minimization to apply to the extraction process, not the gathering process, in order to become compliant.
I agree. I doubt they are retaining 100% of the Hoover in the database, but you can bet your bottom dollar that a significant fraction of the retained communications contents is RANDOM, and snooped as a sort of “precrime” activity, to look for foreign intelligence activity where there isn’t any preexisting suspicion whatsoever.
But even at that (which I think most people would not object to), I doubt that the RANDOM stuff is dumped at an aggressive pace. I think a significant, but smaller fraction is retained long term. This is targeted: defense attorneys, press, airline pilots, chemists, biologists, physicists, security firms, etc. are all natural targets for suspicion, due to their skills and abilities. Looking for patterns, some things are more interesting to hold onto.
I also thing there have been purely domestic extensions of the snoop, driven by calls of interest, where the purely domestic extension (not TSP by definition, but related) are also conducted under the guise of seeking foreign intelligence information – no warrant required.
I’m sympathetic to the difficulty of the chore, and have thought about how one might carry “precrime” surveillance out, most efficiently.
But I recoil at a promise of catching all the bad guys before they act, because I sense that this promise has a privacy tradeoff that just bugs me in a serious way.
And in the other direction, think it through — what is to be done with the non-boring information that is obtained? Is it to be used in a criminal prosecution? To set up personal, eyes-on surveillance? Is there a risk of fruit of the poison tree, for when a bad guy IS uncovered, in a warrantless snoop? Stretching the rules carries a risk in that direction too, but one rarely reads or hears concerns about THAT. It isn’t just about privacy, it’s also about being able to carry the knowledge through to action. What, we listen to the bad guys, so we can keep listening to them? Sheesh.
Lots of old people down here on too many meds. Makes ‘em paranoid and buy Republican snake oil. I voted for Edwards. I was tempted to vote for Kucinich or Dodd. They are still on the ballot as is Joe Biden and Grinell(sp).
BINGO!!!!
Keith is on in Tweety’s spot. What’s up? Florida?
the repukes ,neocons especially are a grotesque rogues gallery,starting with pic on top of this post
Am I the only one excited about watching the Repub primary numbers come in tonight? Perhaps I’m just addicted to these things. :) I’m really hoping Romney pulls it out to keep the battle going.
florida coverage – KO is on fire
SHERROD BROWN ….want change …strengthen the middle class
psst juslin,
I can’t find you on FB, would you poke me?
I love it when common sense is displayed on the floor of the Senate, Dorgan and Brown are singing in two part harmony… ;-)
Okay, so where is the Senate on PAA now?…. Quorum Call anyone?…
oh oh tweetz in love with a photo now
Tweety is such a tool. “America’s Daughter”. Please.
I’m really appreciating your commentary and sitting on the edge of my seat hoping the dems do right. When I click on the link in the first paragraph I get a Tums commercial and can’t get past it. Dumb question, but is that the intention?
Blog Goddess Appreciation Break!
Sweet Jane – Cowboy Junkies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHRFZFmEq9o
well shit. I had figured that tonight, since it’s a Repub only primary in Florida. I would at least be spared the hissing dissing of Mrs. Greenspan, still inexplicably tied to the Clinton campaign…
But NOOOOO. Mrs. Greenspan will be making her poisonous appearances…
yes it has been all too rare
Kit Bond/Saxby Chambliss aka the Rethug version of Ab Fab.
Saxby Chambliss is the pride of Moultrie Georgia. His son “Bo” aka little Sax–aka Sax Junior is risking his life every day defending you with a job daddy got him in a Washington law firm, when he’s not risking his life at the beer bong at “Swine on the Vine” at the Patomic Polo Club. This is the typical Republican White Elite serving their country, and chickenhawking a frenzie for the Dover Coffins from Iraq.
Sax was elected on the strength of a moronic Confederate Flag issue on the ballot, in the state whose Republican governor has addressed a critical water crisis for the city of Atlanta by praying–(no one’s listening) and making politically carved “water districs” that have no relevance to water conservation whatsoever.
Chambliss ran in a campaign orchestrated by Karl Rove, funded by RNC, that emphasized that his opponent Max Cleland, a decorated war veteran who lost both his legs and an arm to a land mind in Nam, had a “gay agenda”, and flooded the airwaves using DNC money with pictures of Cleland between Sadam Husein and Osama bin Ladin–literally.
Chambliss keeps the world informed of Iraq with the folowing insights:
“Every time I go over there the improvements in the conditions are truly amazing,” Chambliss said after a visit to Iraq, “It’s very encouraging to me to see the progress.”
And yesterday: “The surge is doing a great job.”
If he is pressed to explain how, he gets angry and walks away–reflecting that he can only hold a few ideas in his head at once.
she is a jealous HARPIE…(wiki it)
if there’s any question about the technical details involved in having a database and being able to filter through it (datamining) I can assure you they do have the ability
That’s one of the things that so bizarre about the whole argument against probing the snooping policy. Everyone knows that the signals can be obtained by “tapping the line.” Many people have a good handle on how much data can be grabbed and processed this way. CALEA specifies a rate of capture capability (in percentage of bandwidth), for goodness sakes, and CALEA is public law.
As a matter of “ability,” I think everyone knows or assumes that their communications CAN be acquired by and unintended government recipient.
The law is SUPPOSED to represent the agreement between the people and the government as to the circumstances that justify exercising that ability. IOW, the snooper is supposed to use RESTRAINT, in the form of reasonable suspicion or similar — rather than “snoop as far and wide as capability permits.” I say the law grossly misrepresent the truth — it is a lie to the public, because it purports to represent RESTRAINT, when in fact there is unbridled gusto.
Dems primary today also, just no delegates.
If Hershey increases the price of its candy bars 13% will social security finally get a REAL cost of living increase? Congress gets a cost of living increase. SS was/is supposed to get one also.
Great interlude—need a break—the classical thing wasn’t cutting it for me—
Ms. Greenspin
http://www.museehistoriqueveve…..i-1786.jpg
Floridian s choked on the koolaide,im not surprised
oh pumkinhead is opining
Timmeh wants more data
66% of GOP exit poll voters positive about Bush….Hopeless…
told ya so….hopeless sun damaged brains
Russerts face gets redder and rounder each time I see it. Maybe my teevee is bad. ; )
WASHINGTON — The Bush administration is sending strong signals that U.S. troop reductions in Iraq will slow or stop altogether this summer, a move that would jeopardize hopes of relieving strain on the Army and Marine Corps and revive debate over an open-ended U.S. commitment in Iraq.
little boots is FLIP FLOPPING
Just Florida, right? Floridians on drugs (prescribed by doctors).
Nothing like a big screen with Russerts face plastered across it—
Damn….
I think it’s fair to say that Reid has been subjected to BONDage.
He so wants the dems to self destruct
Nope, he looks like that on my tube too.
Now we know why his approval rating was so high. The concentration of followers are in Florida.
arggggggggggggggg wheres Rachel…they are tripleteaming KO
roflmao…hahahahaha
And I believe that the total GOP numbers in FL add up to about 45-50% so what is 66% of 50%?
I believe the figure would be near the national polling of positive for Bush.
Russert does not look healthy to me.
as a nonMSNBC person, I sure appreciate the live bloogin reports.
I’m really hoping Romney pulls it out to keep the battle going.
I think Romney was selected to be next president. I mean, he wants it on his own, sure, but hidden forces are going to hand him the seat. I first had that feeling 18 or so months ago. He has the looks, not much dirt in his background, experience as a governor, no time as a legislator, not well known (contra Hillary!). That ALL it takes. The media and string pullers take care of molding the public into perceiving a fight with an element of uncertainty, culminating in an “independent” public choosing its own leaders.
The US taxpayer funds international equivalents of the GOP and DEM parties in many foreign countries. We export a two party system, and teach politicians, media, etc. in other countries how to conduct “democracy.”
Search out “International Republican Institute,” “National Democratic Institute”
See Senator Kennedy Remarks at P8473, relating top S.Amdt.1299. Putin kicked these operations out of Russia last year, or maybe 2006.
Anyway, that’s pretty far afield from how FISA is apt to play out. I still see retroactive immunity in the future, unless the House sticks to its guns, or unless a court says retroactive immunity can’t be used to cut off an allegation of a constitutional offense.
You would think that with all of the millions he’s made off 9/11 9iu11ani could afford better-fitting and better-looking teeth.
just over indulgence at the cocktail weenie table
i think he asked for the overbite…it scares away the competition
McCain/Romney neck and neck per KO 29% and 28%…
it realloy is almost unwatchable…what did we do before KO?
Rude-y
http://farm2.static.flickr.com…..16ee_o.jpg
Russert does not look healthy to me.
Comes with dealing in bullshit all day long.
dropped it! *g*
Well back when I was a girl, during the War of 1812, we had folks who actually, you know, did a thing called “reporting news.” I’m sure Teh Google can tell us about it. There were names like Murrow and Cronkite… but that was a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away…
uhhh you must tell me how….. as i said – i am the slow one….
McCain/Romney neck and neck
Just like a horse race. And at some point (in this race, a primary other than the FL primary), the media will announce one of the candidates has a clear lead, with the finish line in sight. That (having a lead) is enough to cause most voters to swing that way – just to vote for the winner, no [further] inquiry needed. “If that’s what most people are having, it must be good.”
he’s always had that Nosferatu glow
With 0% of precincts reporting… Ooh, there’s my sweetie, finally… ;-)
click on my little blue f and from there you can poke me, then I can find you!
That’s always confused me. I thought vampires couldn’t go out in the sun and get that tan look. Sun lamps? Spray on?
It’s bad for McCain. He won’t be able to bring in any money with that close of a margin…if he holds onto it.
I still think the nominee will be Romney.
Judy finds him very handsome ,sexy and TALL standing on top of all his money lol
I thought they said 12% reporting.
ROTFLMAO!
Nosferatu… that’s perfect. It gives me chills.
see 176 for likeness
30
30
18
I still see ‘0% in’ on the scroll on MSNBC….
“Hey Harry – pick a fight – be somebody!”
I think what he should do is yank the whole FISA mess off the table, claiming that it is taking too much time, and asserting the need to deal with the looming economic crisis.
Please those who can track such things, keep an eye on the Senate schedule and give us enough warning of upcoming critical votes so that we can rally the troops!
Bob in HI
Can’t wait to hear Rudy’s speech. His War on Terra expertise is as good as his campaign strategy.
Red Russert should retire and enjoy his money. His weight and his blood pressure are working hard against him. Surely, he has enough millions to live a happy retirement. By my account, Timmeh has done his level GE best to help the one percenters stick a shard in the neck of the common man. Cheney controls Tim Russert.
I see that too….hmmmm…they “said” 12%…but it’s not posted there…
CNN is saying 1% w/ 54% Hill, 26% Obama, and 17% for Edwards…
Harry’s not on the side of the angels on FISA/PAA. Barring some secret soul-shaking conversion, don’t expect him to do more than he must.
Just for you: Separated at birth.
McCain 11,986 (29%)
Romney 11,645 (28%)
Huckabee 7,261 (18%)
9ui11ani 7,561 (18%)
Paul 1,288 (3%)
Clinton 18,199 (58%)
Obama 6,567 (21%)
Edwards 5,364 (17%)
From Dailykos front page
oh spewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww alert!
KO:
31
31
17
Cboldt can you distinguish between current existing criminal code and its “exigent circumstances or emergency” provisions, what could be continued for as much as a year after the current PAA expires and what gets substantively added with either the SJC or SSIC version of S. 2248 besides the stumbling block of Telcom/Comcom immunity?
I remember LHP pointing out in an article on EW that there is existing criminal code to do much of what Cheney and Addington are trying to ram through now–and with this administration the concept of exigent circumstances is probably the same as Jimmy Buffett’s concept of Margaritaville. I gathered from LHP’s comment and one from bmaz earlier that USC offers pretty wide latitude for what Bush wants to do now, but perhaps isn’t updated to use some of the new wiretapping tools/technology that they want to deploy. There may be other major prevision in both SJC and SSCI versions of FISA revison.
I’m throwing in these quotes because I’m trying to frame what I want to differentiate:
From bmaz:
From Cboldt:
Also a factor that has to be considered in this mix is the new darling of the federal appellate and trial courts, State Secrets which is used to boot a lot of these cases.
I’d love to see a TIE between Romney and McCain. :)
Stepping in for a moment, what still a quorum call at the Senate?….
What’s up, anyway?….
McCain. He won’t be able to bring in any money with that close of a margin…
McCain won’t get the GOP nomination. Too many negatives, too much negative and loose-cannon history. He’s vindictive and petty, and it shows plenty enough.
oh that is TEH creative thinking…yes i like it
Stepping in for a moment, what still a quorum call at the Senate?….
Who knows, They could come back in with just closing business for the night, or they could come back with an announcement of an agreement of how the S.2248 passage is going to be managed. No need to close shop, it’s not the weekend.
This (quorum call, nobody around, into the evening) isn’t unusual, FWIW.
roflmao!
Seriously, chills.
poke sent elliot ;o}
cboldt you’ve been very informative about Senate procedure last few days. Want to say this, (and no need to reply) ( and you gotta picture with the voice of Inigo, the Spanish swordsman of Princess Bride)
Who are you?
Am I the only person, or one of the OUTER OUTER fringe who wonders if the Democrats give in so much because they’re scared of a “false flag attack”?
I’m not saying that’s the case, but I wonder about it often.
Me too. I think of that scenario as a hostage situation, where the American people are the hostages. It would help explain the otherwise nearly totally inexplicable inertness of D leadership. And in a way that the threat of leaking compromising personal info would not.
… can you distinguish between current existing criminal code and its “exigent circumstances or emergency” provisions, what could be continued for as much as a year after the current PAA expires and what gets substantively added with either the SJC or SSIC version of S. 2248
I’m not really clear on what your wondering about, so I’ll blabber about a couple different things.
bmaz and I were talking about the effect of letting the PAA lapse. In my mind, this question didn’t involve “exigent circumstances” or “emergency warrants” at all. The government has some sort of snooping going on now, “existing orders.” If these orders are phrased in general enough terms, and capturing all that can be captured, then a lapse of PAA has no effect on snooping … existing orders continue. OTOH, if the orders really are narrowly tailored, then getting new orders becomes relevant. Under the PAA, a new order is a do it yourself proposition by the DOJ, with simple paperwork and zero meaningful oversight. But under FISA, a new order has some amount of oversight, and a greater number of specific desireable snoops are swept in. (PAA, if the call is international, it’s not electronic surveillance, no warrant, period. FISA, international calls are electronic surveillance.)
Separately, on the subject of “emergency orders,” FISA and the PAA carry different baggage. The baggage associated with an emergency order under FISA is unacceptable to the administration. A target that bears no fruit has to be informed he was snooped on, if the snoop was an emergency snoop. There are time frame differences too, 72 hours, one week, etc. between initiation of a snoop and filing paperwork with the court.
A third subject is the differences between the SJC and SSCI snoop/oversight arrangements. I haven’t got a concise summary of those differences in my head, so have to beg off on an answer. In general, the differences have to do with the Alice-in-Wonderland redefinition of electronic surveillance (or not), and the extent of reporting to Congress and the courts.
Who are you?
LOL. Just some engineer/lawyer dude who happens to enjoy certain philosophical/social aspects of politics and government/individual relationships as a hobby. I got interested in the Senate a few years ago, trying to figure out “filibuster” and why they don’t talk. Also got sucked into cloture wars on judicial nominations.
Before that, I followed the FL election contest pretty closely. You’d hate my view on that. I’m obviously independently minded, I don’t care to join either the GOP or DEM clique, and I try to avoid persuading people to my view of the world. Each of is, and everyone should be encouraged to take that chore on for themself.
clap clap clap
You don’t think he’s had a come to Jeebus moment about the time he received all our faxes? What, we can’t influence the thinking of the Majority Leader? Why?
yeah, copy that.
60 vote threshold…methinks the Rethugs are trying to set up for the next Congress after the election where they lose their shorts….
Well, we’ll just have to work a little harder on how many Rethugs get replaced…..
8:22 Reid is back in the Senate
8:26, Reid just passed the 15 day extension, standing solo in the well of the Senate.
I wouldn’t say it’s impossible. But I also wouldn’t assume it’s happened just because his hand’s been forced. I certainly wish he’d fly right.
You sure?
For real? I just came back from a meeting on a local issue and am trying to catch up. How can he do that?
Reid predicts a need to vote on Monday (which is unusual in the Senate), and recognizes that the Senate would rather not have votes on Tuesday because Senators like to be in their home states on that day.
Senate will open tomorrow at 10:00. No time set for resuming consideration of S.2248. Reid is talking more about the stimulus package, H.R.5140, and he’s hoping for that to obtain quick and uncontroversial passage. Fat chance!
C-SPAN voiceover lady sez they take up the 15-day extension tomorrow. And I didn’t hear a UC request on it from Reid.
You sure?
Positively sure. I have an MP3 of the closing actions (sometime use that to check hot action, rather than wait for the Record to come out the next day), and would upload it if I knew a place that took stuff like that.
How can he do that? He obtained unanimous consent, without gimmicks, before he came to the floor. He also passed 5 Senate Resolutions.
This sort of stuff is REALLY funny when a solo senator passes a treaty, with 2/rd of the senators standing to indicate “for” and “against,” they (the ONE Senator in the chamber) sits and stands. I’ve heard some funny things that never make it into the record.
Bad eyes and evil times. I thought I read ‘Heil Jane’.
What times we live in.
Ah. It’s my shorthand for a sort of “Hail, Muse!” thing, from lyric poetry. Invoke and praise the Muse for the flow of words that will follow. But replacing the Muse with the poster’s name. (Not a “zed!” fan, am I.)
H.R.5140, economic stimulus package was also subjected to a “motion to proceed” which passed on UC. There will be three bills pending on the Senate’s legislative calendar for tomorrow. S.1200, S.2248, and S.5140. Indian Health Care, FISA, and Economic Stimulus all pending at once. Quite a menu to pick from.
And I’ll reconfirm passage of the extension, I just heard it on recording. “Appreciate the cooperation of my colleagues, esp. McConnell, We’re going to best to have agreement shortly, goal is to get it done quickly, get it to the House in time for conference …”
He had more “thanks” in there.
I’ll nail it down, but parts of 18 USC if I remember correctly give broader latitude to the gov to wiretap in an emergency.
Both you and bmaz, I believe, have pointed out that there are considerable tools allowed in the PAA which can be extended and applied (I think) for a year after expiration on Friday, by one of its provisions.
Bmaz also said:
I meant that there is existing 18USC–I’ll try to pull it–that allows for wiretapping powers and I think it has an emergency period where the period for obtaining warrants is significantly delayed.
I assumed he meant the existing provisions of the criminal code, and I’ll find the ones I’m referencing later, and the provisions of the PAA that allow for a one year’s extension–before it would finally “sunset.”
You wrote:
I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, that I saw a provision in PAA to extend for a year from Feb. 1 2008 and NSA counsel has acknowledged that.
As to differences between SJC and SSIC this helps some–and I suspect the tech law blogs have a comprehensive article I need to find:
FISA Comparison Chart House, SJC, SSCI
Insider’s Guide to Senate Floor Consideration of FISA Amendments
Nice to see Senator Bill Nelson, staunch supporter of the Senate Intelligence Bill and Stuanch fighter for Immunity–one of the Crossover to do Republican bidding 4 yesterday, grinning like a cat supporting Senator Clinton, in a state where she got zero delegates.
Senator Clinton is the one who wants to tell Marcy Wheeler and the Democrats in Michigan how to use their delegates.
I think the idea is to have secret arrests, secret trials and secret prisons. No problem with poisoned fruit or tree there-of. None of this stuff was ever expected to go through an ordinary court. We are looking at Gulag, up front and personal. Cheney-land.
I dunno for sure if this will work. Good luck. MP3 is about 2 Mb in size, Lots of front end stuff, but you’ll hear Reid pass the 15 day extension.
MP3 of Senate Closing – Jan 29, 2008
I believe, and correct me if I’m wrong, that I saw a provision in PAA to extend for a year from Feb. 1 2008 and NSA counsel has acknowledged that.
What I meant by “illusion” was based on the purely speculative hypothesis that the government has existing orders that empower full and “unlimited” surveillance, that no new orders are necessary to surveil all that they intend to. I was saying that even if this was the case, the government would LIE, and say there was going to be a massive GAP in intelligence gathering capability if the PAA were permitted to lapse. The “illusion” is the gap itself, not the fact that orders are in effect for one year, regardless of the state of the law that enabled the order in the first place.
I think the idea is to have secret arrests, secret trials and secret prisons.
Not far fetched. All of those things have been done in fact. There has been a radical evolution in what constitutes a criminal offense triable to a military court, too.
Thanks very much! …but the link’s not working for me, not sure why. It says: http://static.boomp3.com/playe…..8;noinfo=1
Thanks, cboldt. The link worked for me. I hope I wasn’t too presumptious in posting links to your comments over in the comments at Glenn Greenwald’s blog.
Try Senate Jan 29, which is an embedded player at cboldt.blogspot
The file served up has a SWF file wrapper.
I hope I wasn’t too presumptious in posting links to your comments over in the comments at Glenn Greenwald’s blog.
Heh. My 15 seconds of fleeting fame. No problem. The only time I get huffy about that stuff is when somebody pawns the words off as their own. I get frustrated sometimes when people misconstrue what I’m trying to say, but then it dawns on me that their misunderstanding doesn’t change what’s in my own head.
Yes, that one works. (I’m in Safari, maybe that’s why.)
“HR5104, 15-Day Extension…” right you are. Wow. Thanks much for going to all the trouble.
Thanks much for going to all the trouble
You’re welcome. At some point, I was going to figure out how to post audio anyway, because some of the material just doesn’t get to the record, or misses almost all of it’s impact in print. I have to find a tool to trim the audio too.
I’ve done some trimming with a demo version of Goldwave. It was pretty easy to use and you can do quite a bit before you have to pay. Not terribly expensive once you buy as I recall. This was a little over a year ago, so there may be something better out there now.
Believe me I appreciate your time and insights, and if I misconstrued anything, it’s not intentional.
But if you follow enough of the FISA follies, it gets a little complicated. I don’t think there are many people in the U.S. Senate who have a very good grip on this, and I know many of them are issuing cascades of false statements.
I would be absolutely refusing immunity under any circumstances, and it’s axiomatic if a backroom deal is worked out for S. 2248, or if it goes to conference committee we’re never going to find out what’s horse traded and promised down the road for whatever concessions.
I’m equating a deal, if that’s what’s happening now or tomorrow with the same situation as a Conference Committee.
I have never believed a Conference Committee serves us at all. It’s secret; the deals are secret and much of the worst legislation on some of the most important bills gets birthed there.
Hard cases often make bad law, and that’s occuring with more frequency in the appellate courts right now. Conference Committees nearly always do, and their process is the antithesis of a democracy.
Cboldt my http://firedoglake.com/2008/01…..nt-1237355">last post was directed to you. Sorry I didn’t click the link.
Pete – can you try that link again? Or maybe it’s me…
I’ve done some trimming with a demo version of Goldwave.
Thanks for the tip, but I’m not sure if I can use it.
I run linux (gentoo, if anybody wonders) and mostly console applications. I’m sure I can find an application to trim, split, and otherwise mangle the audio I’m getting. Never had a need to, or at least not enough of one to motivate me to go searching. Next time I record some really oddball SEnate event, I might get motivated, now that I know how to get the audio on the web.
No I screwed up. Sorry. Trying to fix Office that’s never given me trouble until today, fix another Beta that went South (getting what I deserve for putting so many betas on this box–(it comes back to bite you sometimes), listen to KO and figure out still why the hell Reid put the wrong bill (SSIC) on the floor. I never hear any speeches on the Senate floor about that.
Hopefully this is the correct link to my comment @246
Believe me I appreciate your time and insights, and if I misconstrued anything, it’s not intentional.
I haven’t noticed any misconstruction — at least none that causes me any frustration. I’m far from a clear, unambiguous communicator — so a certain amount of misconstruction is inevitable and my fault. It gets frustrating when people assign motives or beliefs to me, that I know I don’t have; or if, after I’ve produced a substantial volume of prose around an issue, expressing my view, a person who has provoked the extended production decides to cherry pick one statement (ignoring the rest) and claiming that’s a complete picture of my “argument” or point of view.
There are other variations on the theme. If you’ve blogged around I’m sure you’ve seen examples of bad faith back and forth.
On the FISA and legislative process comments you made in that post, I agree. AFAIK, conference committees are open to the public (mostly), and like any other process aren’t per se good or bad. But Congress uses them to legislate in secret.
CBoldt my comment @ 246 was directed at you; sorry for mangling the link.
I don’t think I’ve asked these, and if I’m dense about it so be it.
1) Why do you think Reid brought the SSIC version of S. 2248 to the floor instead of the SJC version? It sure as hell has made things tougher for immunity.
2) When Bill Frist kept rattling the “Nuclear Option” (The maneuver was brought to prominence in 2005 when then-Majority Leader Bill Frist (Republican of Tennessee) threatened its use to end Democratic-led filibusters of judicial nominees submitted by President George W. Bush in case there is anyone who doesn’t remember it) to end fillibusters by majority vote, I never understood why it had much leverage, since if the Democrats got power, they could have reversed it the same way Frist imposed it?
I also thought the Dems came out hugely on the short end of the stick because so many Federalist society robocops got onto the bench after the “gang of 14″.
You’ve done a very good job IMHO of straight shooting your interpretations accurately with no political agenda whatsoever.
Why do you think Reid brought the SSIC version of S. 2248 to the floor instead of the SJC version? I
The real question is why didn’t he force splitting immunity from the snooping oversight protocol. Senate leaders have the power to combine and split issues at will. Last time around, there was a move by Frist to combine Military Commissions with FISA. FISA got split off and never handled.
I think he put up the DNI/SSCI bill as he was “told” to do, by people he’s not sure he can argue around in case he doesn’t do what he’s told. Shorter version: he’s stupid, and rather than thinking creatively when confronted with the DNI bill, he just assumed the material had to be combined. Alternative: He knows what’s going on, and is a willing pawn.
As a procedural point, if the combination of snoop oversight and immunity ARE destined to be attached at the hip, then protocol as between competing committee versions is, best I can tell, indefinite. Neither committee has priority over the other, they are peers. The basic/bottom/first bill presented has the advantage, because amendments can be denied or forced into 60 vote thresholds.
But I think it bears repetition, a majority of the Senators appear to be in favor of immunity, by their votes. If so, it’s not inappropriate for Reid to “stack the deck” in favor of the likely outcome, if he’s truly trying to have the Senate express its will.
When Bill Frist kept rattling the “Nuclear Option” …
I studied that closely as it was going down. I agreed with it then and do now, but I do so because I view the context of nomination confirmation as very different from legislating. The language of the nuclear option was VERY narrowly tailored (yes, there was precise language) and IMO, was appropriate to the stalemate.
The “nuclear option” had leverage because a minority of senators were stalling executive, not legislative action. It failed because individual Senators (both parties) crave the power that accompanies “I object.” In the end, Frist capitulated the principle of “nominees deserve up or down votes,” as most of the contentious judicial nominees were, after the gang of 14, put on the shelf and never voted on. 4 or 5 of them withdrew their nominations a year later.
To those who say its up to the senate to make its own rules, I counter that the balance as between the executive and senate (concerning appointments of judges in particular) would be RADICALLY altered, if the Senate could set the threshold for confirmation anywhere it wanted to, say 75 or 90 vote supermajority. There was a period of time in Senate history where the was no cloture, and no means to force a vote. Literally, unanimity would be required to pass a nominee.
And on this subject, I am well aware that others hold exactly the opposite view to mine. I studied the question, and pondered how the system was intended to work, and obviously I think my conclusion is correct. But the issue certainly isn’t settled. It takes 60 (or more) votes to get a nomination through the Senate. Check out the “Treaties” rule sometime — cloture does NOT play there.
Yes but…
There you get into the majority of 51-49 votes versus starting to require 60 votes for legislation the (in my perception) skewed logic that Kit Bond and Chambliss tried to sell in their nutty tag team presenatation today.
There you get into the majority of 51-49 votes versus starting to require 60 votes for legislation the (in my perception) skewed logic that Kit Bond and Chambliss tried to sell in their nutty tag team presenatation today.
In general principle, their stance makes sense. They don’t want to be seen as obstructionist, which is what they’d be labeled if they objected to voting on the Feingold amendment. So, they make a plea for the not-unusual expedient shortcut of agreeing to 60 vote margins on the front end of taking up a series of amendments.
It’s all part of the usual political posturing via parliamentary procedure.
Notice my above too, where I said having the SSCI bill as the starting point rather than as an amendment amounts to “stacking the deck” in favor of the starting point. Further evidence of his bias toward the SSCI bill is where Reid encouraged opposition to use the nuclear option of “tabling” (where 60 votes can’t come into play) the SJC version.
Even if a majority of Senators is in favor of the SSCI bill, Reid could have stacked the deck the other way, and required immunity to be added in via amendment. Then, instead of needing 60 votes to get it out, it would take 60 votes to get it in. As a general rule, the leader will stack in favor of the majority – that’s what is thought of as “fair.” And taking the nominal purpose of cloture, which is to permit objection in order to become informed enough to cast an informed vote, the use of cloture to force a supermajority is essentially parliamentary abuse. Not that the Senate isn’t a chronic and experienced abuser — but at bottom, the way the SSCI/SJC conflict came up was “fair” to the legislative body, being biased in favor of the majority.
That a majority of Senators are agreeable with retroactive immunity is the real travesty here.
Even if a majority of Senators is in favor of the SSCI bill, Reid could have stacked the deck the other way, and required immunity to be added in via amendment. Then, instead of needing 60 votes to get it out, it would take 60 votes to get it in.
Repeated for emphasis. Reid’s decision here makes all the difference between immunity passing this time around (as opposed to after a presidential veto of a good surveillance bill), and Congress standing up the president with a ”NO” to immunity.
I’m positive it was a deliberate, thought-out decision, being mindful of the advantage that accrues to particular language being in the base bill.
He can point to the DEM Senators in the SSCI for a bit of cover, as they appear to have endorsed immunity on a 13-2 margin. The SSCI vote is being thrown up frequently as misrepresented (I think) as overwhelming committee support for immunity.
OTOH, maybe the SSCI and other senators feel the Rockefeller version of ”court review” isn’t immunity at all. Piercing the Rockefeller immunity sham requires a more complex argument, and is a more nuanced situation than outright ”throw it out of court.” See Feinstin’s and Specter/Whitehouse options (also amounting to immunity shams, IMO) to complete the picture of deep Senate support for a legislative solution to keeping the administration’s bogus legal logic from seeing the light of day.