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REID: Hey GOP — agree to some extension, or the burden of the expiration of the PAA this Friday is on your shoulders. The House is not going to be in session after today, so unless we can work something out in the next hour, it’s on you.
MC CONNELL: We’ve known we need to extend this FISA law for six months. Six months. The GOP blocking a vote on any amendment last week with an unprecedented level of stonewalling had nothing to do with it. Our enemies are watching so give us everything we want or we’ll call you soft on terror. You just don’t understand how serious this is.
REID: Yes, we understand. Terror terror terror, booga booga booga. Why can’t we just have an extension?
DURBIN: The President and the GOP have some damn nerve blaming the Democrats for the expiration if they’re the ones blocking an extension.
REID: I don’t know if we can work anything out on these amendments, but we’ve seen this train wreck coming. We’ve been asking for an extension for a long time.
DORGAN: It seems to me it takes two sides to compromise. McConnell says we’re "ready to move forward" — so why did you decide to block everything last week, ‘cos we probably would have been done with all the amendments if we’d been able to consider them?
REID: Russ Feingold hates the PAA but even he thinks it should be extended. Shouldn’t pissing Russ off be enough for the Republicans?
McCONNELL: This is the kind of legislative finger pointing that turns the public off on politics, so stop telling people what we’ve done. The Preznit won’t sign a 30 day extension so its lapse is your fault if you pass one.
Also, how dare the House leave and drop this in our laps like we did to them in August.
This is a "bipartisan" bill, because a Democrat (Jello Jay Rockefeller) gave the GOP and the Preznit everything they want. It’s bipartisanship at its best!
(Note: Congressional Quarterly [sorry no link] is reporting that the House Republicans may be passing a 15 day extension to the PAA — jh)
SNOWE: It’s gonna be tough to pull off my "moderate" act and vote like an extreme corporatist hack at the same time, but let me give it a shot. Maybe if I say "bipartisan" often enough….
I’ll admit that the stronger language in the Judiciary bill regarding exclusivity (FISA being the exclusive means by which the government conducts surveillance — also considered to be a "poison pill" that Bush won’t sign) was actually superior to the Intel bill.
Okay. Now that I’ve established my "moderate" bona fides by expressing admiration for a dead bill that has no chance of passing, lemme tell a few lies about how poor telecoms can’t defend themselves against these lawsuits (is that her nose growing?) You can’t blame them after they were presented with appropriate certification from the government in the wake of 9/11. Never mind that they weren’t presented with that certification, and their cooperation started before 9/11. Details, details.
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Hello!….
Let the damned thing expire. Seriously. The Repugs don’t want an extension? Don’t give em one. Let it expire.
Cheney needs to floss…just sayin’
Just let it go.
Hey, leinie!
-S
STRAT! I *miss* you!
Hilarious recap Jane. Thanks for all you do.
That’s right, Chimpy wants it this way, he can have it.
yes, let it expire and bring on the telecom trials.
Goopers wont even allow a vote on the bad-idea Feinstein amendment let the FISA court rule on telecom liability in secret; they want a 100% guarantee that there will be no leakage of what they during tapgate from a court case.
I would dearly love to see the GOP minority punked for a change! Please let it happen. So far they seem to be playing their cards right. All you really have to do is ask yourself, “What would the Rethugs do?”
That classic Cheney expression…it’s like Lex Luthor trying to sing “Love Me Tender.”
Mitch, Mitch, Mitch…
My brain hurts.
Wonderful translation into plain English, Jane. :)
“Let the damned thing expire. Seriously. The Repugs don’t want an extension? Don’t give em one. Let it expire.”
I agree. All the essential stuff that the new law was designed to fix will be extended anyway. Let it expire!
Bob in HI
Yesterday in California after a long time dealing with bitter rainstorms we had a break in the rains and enjoyed a beautiful sunset in our neck of the woods…..
I would like to hope it was synchronicity considering the events that happened regarding the PAA….
Harry:
Invite your Democratic colleagues out for an afternoon of martinis.
Just leave.
You know what else? Let them scream terrah terrah ugga bugga after it expires.
Cuz they Chicken Littled that into irrelevance ages ago. Raise the terror alert, people yawn.
Stand for the Rule of Law.
I was wondering where Teddy is today? Supposedly he was to be on the campaign trail for Barack for the next eight days? Is it true that they will not be in session after today? For how long; is it until after Super Tuesday?
I much prefer your version.
I wish real politics was like that.
What’s the fucking rush? Right now, today, Michael Mukasey can approve any program he pleases and however broad he pleases for the duration of the Bush presidency. So, Senator McConnell, stop your cowardly snivelling!
then isn’t it the prez’s fault?
I just made a few calls. The nice young fellow in McCaskill’s office didn’t even know if she is in DC this afternoon. Anyone have more information on that?
I couldn’t resist letting Mel Martinez’s office know I was ashamed to live in Florida after hearing his mischaracterization of the FISA situation on the Senate floor this morning.
Reid is an insipid jackass for pushing this mindless extension junk as a political stunt. An extension is unnecessary and weakens our overall position. Why not just use the time and effort to explain how we got here (fraud and deception) as to the PAA, where the country really stands on the FISA issues, what is heinously wrong with immunity and offer to work on sensible legislation? This schticht is maddening.
With little plunder to gather right now, all that’s left is cowardly sniveling.
The real Democratic response to SUTU
http://www.therealstateoftheun…..nt/winner/
should I listen on C-SPAN2, or will it just make me crazy?
The Senate appears to back in session on CSPAN 2.
aaaaah, quorum call . . . . such relaxing music
From DNI’s April 2007 presentation of its proposed FISA revisions, it explains why removal of certain actions should be to the FISA Court. To be fair, an earlier section advocates immunity, but DNI didn’t argue that the FISA Court is incompetent or leaky, as some in the Senate are asserting recently.
It’s pretty funny, the Democrats actually sort of have the Republicans boxed in if they choose to press their advantage. The GOP is trying to act as a firewall and keep Bush from having to veto an extension (which is pretty funny, since their reason for not voting for one is that — he’ll veto it). Their argument is prima facia bullshit.
ugh, Kick out the Jams MOFO’s!
And that stopped them when? :)
Hehehe. After being on C-SPAN for awhile, I switched to C-SPAN2 and mistakenly thought, for awhile, that it was live. It wasn’t live, it was Memorex. No wonder it sounded familiar.
Wayne Kramer ROCKS!
I can’t comment very quickly ‘cuz I’m icing down my mouse hand — too much responding yesterday. But on prior thread we were trying to figure out why Reid has finally insisted on regular order. How can we keep him on regular order from now on if we don’t understand why he changed tactics?
At some point, the GOP in the Senate will realize that it’ll be either THEM preventing an extension, or the president. I think they’ll toss the issue to the WH.
Yes. If Reid had any cajones he would just not schedule it at all and let it revert to the 1978 FISA law. Much better all around and calls Mitch’s and Chimpy’s bluff.
so let bush veto it.
IRST a comment yesterday, I would like to know how many reps have staffers that keep an eye on the progressive blogs and comments sections during debates like this one?
smart lady.
they could do the same thing on war funding and any number of other items.
here we go again!! chimpy boosted repug hopes last night by demanding his way….. oh HELL NO!!!
When AMERICA finds out they lived under a dictatorship, they will be mad .
The r’s
Bring on the lawsuits that what AMERICA WANTS TRUTH
Cspan2 sounds like “Silly Symphonies” today….
Okay, where’s Bugs Bunny?….
Back to “morning business.” What a sham.
Morning business for the next 2 hours…
Here we go Harkin is up….
thanks, is there a rule for that? the bullshit, i mean
Shouldn’t they do their ‘morning business’ before they get to work?
When I was a kid, I wanted to play in an orchestra that did the music for cartoons.
2 more hours of debate?
De Novo Prima Facia Bullshit; but, underneath it is still the same old oowey-goowey, rich and chewy Republican core, circling the wagons to protect one of their own (as long as he’s not openly gay). The wonder is that ANYONE in on the Republican side of the fence sees any reason to protect the Chimporer. They will invariably need to face re-election; what possible value could there be in protecting a lame-chimp? Wait…legal action against telecoms you say…what could they possible have of any value to protect…?
Yeah
Let the pathetic fuckwad president veto his own god forsaken program…double dog dare ya dickhead!
I love my good Senator Harkin. Makes me proud!
What was that I heard? It sounded like a backfire! Yes, yes I believe it was a backfire!
sounds like a great career plan.
what do you do?
They can’t afford the t-paper at home… they don’t make enough $$$ Re the pay raise they voted themselves….
Two more hours of killing time, while the big boys figure out what they’re going to do…
so is FISA done for the day?
Actually, I thought it was pretty inspiring too…
I’m hoping the Dems act more like Bugs Bunny today…
& not like Yosemite Sam or Daffy Duck….
We lived without this shit head law for bout 200 years– we could live without it for 11 months. Let the fucker expire. Is Bush sayin he’d stop spyin if congress lets the law expire- lyin sack of shit!!
OT – AP via Boston globe Margaret Truman RIP
I would take that bet if somebody could answer my #34.
CYA and denial. None of them want to be in the firing line of their beloved K Street friends, nor do they want to be a target for the domestic Blackwater sturm troops.
Has Nancy Pelosi made any comment about the 950+ lies leading up to the illegal invasion of Iraq?
By pressing for the extension, Reid:
— lends credence to the lie that the end of PAA is the end of surveillance.
— undercuts our claims that the PAA is a horrible evil.
— makes McConnell squirm in a most delightful way.
I can’t help but enjoy it.
Just listened to Glenn Greenwald on Democracy Now! Great!
No. Nancy is too busy keeping impeachment off the table to comment.
looks like whatever they are going to do they might try to do in the middle of the night while “no one” is watching. That’s how they do things in a fascist state.
ohhh! how sad
FiberCon?
I wanted to know that, too. Good question.
Hope we end up with someone in the White House who investigates and reports on all the bullshit this dickwad accomplished while stinkin the place up.
We lived without this shit head law for bout 200 years– we could live without it for 11 months.
The president has (correctly) noted he has Article II authority to gather foreign intelligence information, and has no need for a statute for this authority. I have no problem with eliminating FISA altogether. Let the courts handle snoops on a case by case basis – before the fact, after the fact, whatever the snooper chooses.
He could test FISA in a case/controversy, and have it ruled an impermissible impingement on executive authority.
Stop and think. This IS calling the GOP bluff. From all these miles away from the action, looks to me as if Reid’s playing a blinder. Immediately McConnell said the President wouldn’t sign a 30 day extension the yawning gap between fact and fiction showed. The president does not want to be bipartisan he said. He wants it all. Shorter McConnell, I’m a powerless cipher.
Aerospace Engineer.
The squirm part is the best, no?….
LET IT EXPIRE!
question- Where the hell is the house going? Is the Senate going out also and if so- is Reid gonna use Pro forma again?
Larry Kissell sent an e-mail out with this story linked to it. This ties in so well with what Sen. Harkin is talking about this moment.:Richmond County Daily Journal
Surrounding counties are in the same boat as Richmond County.
Hi all, just got in from teaching Freshman Seminar “Science and the Citizen”. Not a single Bush supporter among them. Whew, we got that out of the way.
When does FISA debate resume?
And thank again Jane for your wonderful translations of the action.
I hate to say it, but I want to see him leave office in disgrace, like Nixon. If we can’t impeach him we ought to force his and Cheney’s resignations somehow. I pray every day for whistleblower who can open up the mother of cans of worms.
Thats what the FISA court is SUPPOSED to do.
You know, making a threat and then ultimately following through on it is two different things, especially when faced with an expiration of legislation you, yourself want!
Thats what the FISA court is SUPPOSED to do.
And that what the courts did, before FISA came into existence.
If the administration finds FISA and its court to be such a pain, Congress has the power to disband it.
2 hours from now.
I’d say more like a power tool. Won’t venture which one.
Where the hell is the house going?
House Democrats will meet in Williamsburg for retreat, from Wednesday through Friday.
Meaning that the public would be more likely to see what the government is up to in a regular court proceeding rather than the secret FISA court? Sounds good to me…
They better sweep the joint for electronic and digital listening devices.
Better employ the bullshit police for security.
it’s great to hear Harkin, but if Reid & Durbin are negotiating w/GOP during lunch, shouldn’t we be pounding them & all the reliable Dems to stand firm, tell them PAA sucks & was based on fraudulent threats. Remember Trent Lott’s bullshit about the Capitol Bldg. being targeted?
Why would any member of congress be afraid of a veto threat? Just veto. Let it stand. It’s accurate. Veto again and again and again.
Olympia Snowjob now up to lie about FISA.
Snowe talking about FISA now. Is she alive?
Gotta fly off from the lake now…
Loved that Classic Cheney pose…
Looks somebody forgot the muzzle on that mad dog…
See you pups in a couple….
Snow: Act with firm resolve to make sure the telecoms have immunity.
N
Snowe may be turning? . . . . SSCI version is not “ideal” but is an improvement . . . .
If you don’t have the link here is Dood’s website with links to call your senators:
http://chrisdodd.com/filibuster/call
Snowe will vote for retroactive immunity. She’s reading from a script somebody else prepared for her on the need for Congress to enable the president to gather foreign intelligence information.
CSPAN says its live- ??? Snowe
Snowe is at least admitting the Bushies stretched things to justify warrantless spying.
The 2006 Act that she mentions had no provision for retroactive immunity.
some of these democrats are such fools they don’t even know it’s them who cheney has been spying on
Is the debate back early?
Jeebus Cripes, Jane, yer KILLIN’ me with these summaries *ROFL*
Good thing for the Hollywood writers that you’re pro-union…
Bolton was doing it too. While he was on that recess appointment.
It’s still officially “Morning Business” but they can talk about FISA.
OMG: Snowe said “rule of law and constitutional principles”. Are Republicans allowed to say that? Shouldn’t she get struck by lightning?
The first Jane worked with them those hollywood writers.
Heh heh, as we have discussed before, I am not sure FISA holds up in such a real test. Also as we have discussed and (I think) agreed on in the past, the foreign foreign and legitimate national security issues were never in doubt; the government flat has the power to deal with that; and if a minor tweak is required to make that clear for the newer modalities, that is rather simple and uncontroversial. This currently is ALL about questionable (an likely improper domestic) snooping and laziness on the part of the government.
I’ll settle for having the next Attorney General (my first pick would be Gov. Spitzer of New York) sic the hounds on Bush and whoever he doesn’t pardon before leaving office. If I were the President-Elect, I would issue a statement upon being declared the winner to the effect that Bush will reap the accumulated wrath of the new administration if he dares pardon anyone in his administration, past or present.
This currently is ALL about questionable (an likely improper domestic) snooping and laziness on the part of the government.
Congress and the executive working in tandem to strip privacy protection from individuals.
In fact, Snow is accusing the telcos of criminal behavior. The innocent don’t beg and plead for immunity.
The time and effort spent on a bill is not proof of its goodness.
They need to stop talking about the heroic effort and craftsmanship that went into this bill.
It doesn’t signify anything.
there is no executive authority the president has that is not granted by congress, none, especially when it specifically violoates the constitution
the presidency is an after thought, congress has all the power
Can anyone do a Jane-esque translation of what Snowe is saying?
uh, no, the PEOPLE have all residual power, that they haven’t granted to the Executive or Legislature through the constitution
Top of the afternoon to you, Jane…
Very few Senators have come out with clear statements on the subject of retroactive immunity, in whatever flavor they may prefer.
Here’s Snowe’s position — she will give immunity following the model of SSCI.
oooh, shit, I was wrong again. Snowe likes retroactive immunity.
Oh, goodie, here it comes: what Snow thinks about immunity.
Fuck you Snowe NO NO NO IMMUNITY for breaking the law in violation of the 4th admendment
Okay, I have a question (not unusual, you say?) What would happen if the telecoms brought suit against the President and the DOJ for falsely representing those letters as an affirmation that they were doing nothing wrong, immoral or illegal?
uh oh, pro-amnesty
Good news: 22nd retiring HR Rethug.
Rep. Hulshof Joins List of GOP Retirees. will run for gov. now that the gov. [Blunt’s son} wants to spend more time with his family after only one term. and lots of legal bills for we don’t know what just yet.
Bad news: his district in MO is Bush country. carried 59% of the votes.
But since the gov. wants to spend more time with his family after only one term etc. and the MO people at Kos are sure the corruption goes deep down down down, perhaps there is a chance.
any MO people here?
back to work.
Her rationale is BS. State Secret gets the telecom out of the case.
Isn’t the president immune from law suits while in office? Clear this up for me.
hypothetically my ass just look at the the fibre optic splitter in San Francisco…. She is fucking holding the Rethuglian line … asserted by cronies of bushco and shit heads
She’s an idiot in general. I’ve had detailed exchanges with her on various issues when she was on Armed Services, and her detailed (not boilerplate at all) answers were never responsive.
Not totally or we wouldn’t have had Paula Jones v Wm J Clinton in the ’90s.
not criminal prosecution, that was the whole reason Clinton got set up.
First, it’s nice to see.
Second, probably Reid had to leave a long, detailed record of cooperating with the WH. Now, no matter how hard the wingnuts bleat, there’s no way in hell they can legitimately claim that Harry and the Dems didn’t give them every, single opportunity to be reasonable.
Harry holds all the cards; they weren’t all dealt out at once. He had to wait and collect, hold his good ones, trade out his bad ones for better ones, collect, hold, collect,.
He’s got the hand he needs now.
I’m loving it!
What a condescending bitch!
Good point. What law suits are the administration immuned from?
Isn’t the president immune from law suits while in office?
No. See Clinton v. Jones and a number of cases behind that. Of course, “it depends” on the case, but absolute immunity is not to be found. Qualified immunity for official acts, yes.
Doh!
Collins is the Maine GOP Senator who is up for reelection, right? Snowe has another two years to go in her term? Or is it the other way around?
Yes. Collins will be challenged by Tom “the gap-toothed goober” Allen in 2008.
cboldt- are you a Mainer?
Thanks. Not immuned from criminal investigations or law suits but is immuned from policy and state official acts.
That would prolly be admitting their culpability. “The white house told us to spy and we did it, but we didn’t know it was illegal” Do you see any telecoms fighting for immunity? You bet you don’t. They are keeping quiet. The whole immunity push is coming from the Bush white house.
Shorter Snow: patriotism trumps legality.
Another knee-jerk patriot.
She doesn’t know what a splitter does… ALL all traffic is sent in both directions one to the true recipients of the communication and one to the NSA… In violation of the 4th again no way to tell the tape is being made and no telling what propriety info they get for their own personal profit…. again root of every thing GREED and contempt for the rule of law!
They can’t. They knew all along they were breaking the law. It would be trivial for the government to prove it. The telcos and BushCo still need each other. They won’t be ratting each other out any time soon.
I buy it. I thought I read somewhere that Reid is a poker player. I’m just not sure I know what all the cards are. And I guess, if your explanation is right, then we don’t have any guarantee we can make him stick to regular order from now on.
not an Allen fan?
Jr. Casey up next and back to morning busyness.
not an Allen fan?
Nope. Not a Collins fan either, nor Snowe. I’m a radical righty trapped in liberal land.
“Goober” isn’t necessarily a bad thing, is it? At least not in Georgia.
Or are you a GOP person, that’s why you don’t like Allen?
Reid is from NV alright, but my understanding is that he’s Mormon. What do they have to say about gambling? Or does it matter?
There have been lots of analogies about Reid and poker since he took over but I don’t know if it is our poetic license or reality.
Exactly. The fervor with which they (GOP) have fought this is indicative of the depth and breadth of their illegal involvement. Hey doesn’t AT&T, Verizon, etc. have very well paid and knowledgable lawyers to determine what is legal and what is not?
Now I get where your excellent legal analysis is coming from — you’re a Libertarian!
Or are you a GOP person, that’s why you don’t like Allen?
I like him as a person. Have chatted with him from time to time. I don’t like his political positions. I generally don’t like big government, for a variety of reasons, and I really don’t like snoopy nannies.
That’s what the judge said who ruled against them. IIRC.
Well, if they are ever held liable for anything, that is exactly what they will do as part and parcel of an indemnification/subrogation type of claim either under a formal or informal agreement already existing (but that we don’t know about) or under a Tucker Act claim. the telcos will not suffer.
Victoria@79; I agree with you. I don’t want him slinking out of office, to head off to some corporate boardroom sinecure, to open up his 4-volume “Presidential Library” in Bumfuck, Texas.
But if we want him driven, then the only chance for it, is to NOT nominate Hillary Clinton. She is his, and their, life preserver. She’ll be worth 15-18 points to them in the general.
If she runs, the “issues” will be nearly meaningless. SHE will be the issue. She can turn McCain or Romney from nothing more than charter members of team-troll, into Reagan clones, for a TON of voters.
It will be all Hillary (and Bill), all the time. And if you think Bubba cranked up a backlash against her in the DEMOCRATIC primary in South Carolina; if she tries to use him in the general, the reaction to that, among independents and even some democrats, will be like tacking a “to the 5th power” exponent on what happened in S. Cackalack.
I cannot believe that there are people who, after watching her enthusiastically applaud the surge-centerpiece of bush’s bullshit claims last night, are still defending her.
At this point, it’s becoming obscene.
People, it’s not rocket science; without her to run against, bush and the GOP will get HAMMERED.
Victoria; if we nominate Obama, or if John Edwards can pull a rabbit out of a hat next Tuesday, then, the GOP will know that their last, best, chance went down with Hillary, and george bush’s value as a retiring “elder statesman” president will instantly begin to decrease, and his value to the republican party as a sacrificial pig-entree for a “Y’all come!” barbecue on the white house lawn for american voters, will go up accordingly. I’m not saying it will happen for certain, but I’d bet money that the Goldwater Swat Team has already quietly been practicing search and evict ops for Cheyney and Bush.
Cheyney will go first, for “health reasons” and he’s junior’s insurance policy. After he goes, bush has no chance of staying. My 2c, the next president of the United States may very well be Dick Lugar. Rather temporarily.
Think about it; if this scenario plays out, Lugar could come in, serve a few months, and, relatively speaking, clean as a whistle, run for the office…instead of the trolls who’ve been exposing each other’s mediocrity for the entire campaign.
If I were a republican running for re-election this year, I’d give Cheyney and bush up like they were D.C. crack dealers. Which, in a sense, they are.
But none of this has a chance if we nominate Hillary. She’s mainline Viagra for the miserable, bloody-handed geezers who’ve dragged us to this precipice.
Her applause for bush’s surge-crap last night, as Obama sat like the Sphinx, spoke volumes about what her campaign positions in the general would be. They’ll ruin us.
As old Jerry Lee said: ” ‘hink about it…”
you’re a Libertarian!
Probably small “L,” but generally correct. I’m sure government, even big government has many legitimate roles. But I think our society is making error on top of error by pushing solutions “up” the chain to a mess of elitist pricks in government.
Jane! Thanks for adding Snowe translation to post above. Hilarious. Hard refresh, all.
Harry converted to Mormonism, he was recruited by missionaries.
Lunch break!
What have we come to when righty’s in favor of upholding the Constitution are radical? ; )
You may be trapped with us lefties, but we still enjoy your company : )
He’s a converted Mormon…
Said like a true Maineniac … Leave me the fuck alone I will take care of myself and I don’t want none of your government bullshit… I used to live ther and I met many of a true down easterner… great people!
That says a lot. Further comment by me would be in bad taste and not worthy of my calling.
“He’s a converted
Mormon” moron…Surely, government is not the sole province of elitist pricks.
Especially since the Corporate Elitist Pricks have acquired the government.
So — class action suit: The People vs. George Walker Bush and Richard Darth Cheney. Why not, please and thank you?
cboldt- where are you in Maine? geographically I mean?
You may be trapped with us lefties, but we still enjoy your company
Thanks, and LOL. I was talking about my “political influence” as a voter living in Maine. Doesn’t much matter what my vote is, I’m vastly outnumbered in these (geographic) parts.
He has not converted from moronism!
Shit, try living in Georgia!
where are you in Maine?
Somewhere around Sebago Lake (southern part of the state, not too far from Portland)
I like that! Bush, et al are trapped and about to stumble onto their own petard. I smell impalement. Blood, guts, and gore to abound! Let the show begin!
[Mod Note; let’s be careful where we let this lead.]
It’s funny that you say that… I would dearly love to call up Sununu and Gregg and give them a piece of my mind, but I live on the MA side of the border. It’s not like I can call Teddy up and chew him out — where’s the satisfaction in that? Oh to be a political irritant ; )
Hey cbolt I lived in Limerick not too far from Sebago…. do any Ice fishing on the lake??
Surely, government is not the sole province of elitist pricks.
Of course it’s not. But since the general discussion here is on subjects political, and the power of legislatures, presidents and courts to impose their will, I figured “government pricks” was an appropriate focus. I can deal with the private pricks one by one — mostly I ignore ‘em.
Just spitballing here…but if the Senate murders the 4th Amendment is there any way that a class-action lawsuit can be brought against specific Senators for violating our rights and violating their oaths of office? Or perhaps for obstruction of justice?
I want people to PAY for it if they give the telecoms a pass on illegality (and by extension, Bush and Cheney).
What did I miss? Bush did not mention the ban on permanent military bases in Iraq last night. For years Bush has insisted the US has no intention of building permanent bases in Iraq. He signed legislation prohibiting the US from building permanent bases. I take this to mean he plans to lock in his successor into a long-term occupation of Iraq. Thus, a couple of weeks ago the War College spoke of a hundred years in Iraq.
I understand the ban was in his speech last night and he used his red pen to X it out.
C-SPAN 1 breaks news that Hoyer has announced extension has been agreed between House Senate and Bush for 15 days.
do any Ice fishing on the lake?
I get a license every year, mostly to support DNR, because I don’t do any fishin’ Have hiked and skied out on the ice a few times, but prefer going up in the mountains.
You fail to realize that you’re a subject of the Inverted Soviet.
I’m a Missouri resident and I can tell you I am one of very few Democrats in my city. Things are tough for us liberals here. :0(
Hoyer has announced extension has been agreed between House Senate and Bush for 15 days.
That means Dodd agreed with it too.
Shit foot brain is up…. more wingnut lying… man this sucks… doesn’t any one tell the truth any more??
F*%CK
Bush blinks. HA!
A passing:
KANSAS CITY, Mo. – Margaret Truman, the only child of former President Harry S. Truman who became a concert singer, actress, radio and TV personality and mystery writer, died Tuesday. She was 83.
You fail to realize that you’re a subject of the Inverted Soviet.
Well, I know that big money interests pull the strings of the politicians. But it’s the people, the general public, that tolerates and asks for more government, when less government would do.
Ok, so Dodd goes along with the extension. Then what? Back to square one with the Intel version or do we get to start over?
Yeah, well, it has it’s downside for you too. It means you, me and all the other taxpayers pay for what has gone on as a result of the Bush/Cheney illegality. For instance, say immunity is rejected and EFF gets a 2.5 billion dollar judgment against AT&T (fairly conceivable) and AT&T incurred $50 million in attorney fees defending the suit (probably low). They are then, under what I am describing, going to be reimbursed out of Federal coffers in the amount of 2.55 billion dollars. We are going to lose as a result of Bush’s actions no matter what we do.
House just bought 30 day extension to floor. Conyers talking. Maybe Hoyer had an agreement amongst himself.
I respectfully disagree. The more sunlight and attention the more we wake sombnolent Americans. This will become a rallying cry to unite the progressive blogswarm.
House just bought 30 day extension to floor. Conyers talking. Maybe Hoyer had an agreement amongst himself.
Now
Maine is a beautiful state but I had to leave for health reasons… the cold the dam fucking cold… Check out Long Pond sometime in the warm weather it is stocked with land locked Salmon every year… great on the barbie with a little OJ and butter while cooking…
cboldt- any thoughts about the ME-01 race? Is there a Dem you even like a little bit?
OK switched to Span 1. Jerkoff Smith from TX defending the poor telcos and wants to grovel and thank them for spying on us all.
Feh.
not a converted moron – A MORON!!! and a spineless one at that…….. jus sayin….
Jane Harmon now up in the House.
Hmmm. I’d be really careful thinking that any deal cooked up by the House and Bush is a done deal. The Senate gets pissy when it’s left out of the loop, and this is exactly the kind of thing that gets their dander up.
Shorter Lamar Smith: thank you, thank you, thank you telecoms for breaking the law.
15 or 30 days, it’s just more time for those faxes, emails, and phone calls to keep flooding in.
I think I’m going to give my stimulus check to our local animal shelter. That will make a difference, and maybe save a few lives.
This blithering idiot in the Senate is blaming Clinton for the Russians having a new Firefox jet. I suppose he thinks we should get Clint Eastwood to go steal it. I’m not sure what his point is, he is all over the map and making little sense. I think he is just trying to justify feeding the military/industrial complex whatever they want. And he gets to speak for 35 minutes??? I’m changing channels….
Oh I agree. But I wanted it either to lapse or I wanted the 30 day extension. I just went back to Glen’s piece. Bush kept emphasizing that it was a 30 day extension that he would veto. He is now off the hook.
Who is this jackass talking?
Jane seems to have had her come to jeebus moment when Marcy Winograd tried to primary her butt. She’s figured out a lot since then.
Primaries. Good.
So we get to do this every two weeks?
so Dodd goes along with the extension. Then what? Back to square one with the Intel version or do we get to start over?
I’d only have been surprised at Dodd going along with a 15 day (new) extension, not the 30 day one. He can’t stop a 30 day bill originated in the House with any parliamentary move.
As for what an extension does, nothing but buy time. The substantive issue of retroactive immunity in S.2248 remains as it stands. I’m doing some basic nose counting and have a pretty strong (sinking) sense that the Senate easily has 60 votes for retroactive immunity.
Anyone still listening to the Senate – this is getting pretty graphic & gross, itemizing Saddam’s crimes.
I’ve tried to contact his office and let him know that not every constituent is brain dead but it doesn’t matter since he’s brain dead.
The population of salmon in Florida is going down fast—Rudy’s been hanging out in Cohens, The Rascal House and all sorts of bagel cafes all day. The salmon are scared.
Come on folks help out DIGG this thread… gotta help out our great writers!
Is there a Dem you even like a little bit?
I can think of few politicians I like, even a little bit. Right up there with used car salesmen. I don’t like the DEM tendency to impose government solutions – but there’s nothing I can do about it.
if the jackass you are watching is in the senate, I think he is Inhofe from OK or wherever .
The Democratic Leadersheep: You can’t love and respect them, and you can’t kill them…. Just stuck with blithering idiots; weak, timid and fearful ones too.
does it matter?? it is just more wingnut blather…
I much prefer a 30 day extension because I want to see Bush faced with the same false choice he tried to stick Congress with. He said he’d veto 30 days, well, here it is, take it or leave it.
Insult Watch:
Hoekstra: “held up by liberal activists.”
I guess not but this asshole is stupid as dirt.
Kucinich up
I think Inhofe is getting off on this.
House Debate on Legislative Program … that has some funny banter where the House is complaining about the Senate sitting on its hands, and the Senate sticking the House with “take it or leave it” legislation. The subject is the RESTORE Act (and Senate failure to take it up), as well as an extension of the PAA. The debate was last week.
Aw come now dirt at least has the decency to just lie there on the ground and just shut up!
This idiot Inhofe relishes in the graphic. He takes to the floor once in a while to continue his anti-choice rants and describe, in the most graphic terms possible, abortion procedures. He is an ahole
Yeah. What a pile of crap. Another day of yeoman’s work by craven pansy morons. They managed to grab defeat out of victory once again. In a maximum way. They not only weakened themselves by ratifying the prior malfeasance of the Administration and GOP, they didn’t even take advantage of pulling a good tactical stunt in the process. Fucking insane; what is wrong with them?????
Aw come now dirt at least has the decency to just lie there on the ground and just shut up!
be very scared: Terra, terra, terra!
Shorter Issa: the American people must never know what the telecoms have done.
insane; what is wrong with them?
Calculated action by elites to disenchant the common man. They work on both ends of the political spectrum, leaving the uneducated manipulative mass of public in the middle as their tool.
how did the House switch from a 30 day extension to a 15 day one?
cboldt- when I first started going to ME, there was no 911 service in the area. But then there was, and roads had to be given official names. Some of the new names were amusing- like “Purple Haze Lane”. What is your view on having to name roads for the sake of having 911 service?
In response to bmaz @ 222
What’s wrong with them? Simple. They really just aren’t that into the Constitution, liberty, the People, etc.
This punk is going to threaten people?
Reid blew it yesterday when he made that off the cuff remark on the floor that they were willing to give the Repubs whatever extension they wanted, it didn’t have to be 30 days. Way to stick it too ‘em Harry. I choked when he said it. This is why. He has now given the Rethugs and Bush political cover and completely blown a huge tactical advantage. Moron.
Well, in his defense – he did say the terrorists should not find out. Oh wait, to him we at the site are the terrorists. Never mind.
Interesting stuff. I will chime in later after I get home from work.
how did the House switch from a 30 day extension to a 15 day one?
As far as I know, that’s still unconfirmed rumor, put out by C-SPAN. I’m listening to Hoyer now, as he’s at least on the subject.
cboldt- btw, are you a real Mainer, as in born and bred?
the title CSPAN displays says 15-day extension
I am stunned. As cynical as I am, I didn’t see this coming (I am a freaking moron there admittedly) I thought we were arguing over tough/smart and political stunt. Reid surpassed expectations and wrangled neither out of it. Crikey, just shoot me.
What is your view on having to name roads for the sake of having 911 service?
I don’t have a problem with that. Lots of roads here known as “Fire Lane No. XXX” so the firefighters and other can get there. Our neighbors house had an illegible number on it, and when rescue would come (heart trouble), they’d sometime hunt around awhile. Road was named fine, no ID on the house. We put up a nice attractive house number for them.
Well this is interesting..(and forgive me if it’s already been posted)
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/ar…..5.php#more
House Dem Opposes Extension to PPA
Exerpt:
Over in the House, Rep. Rush Holt (D-NJ), a member of the House intelligence committee, took to the floor this afternoon to urge others to vote against any extension to the Protect America Act. His reasoning: 1) the administration’s bill was bad law in the first place and brought home the lesson to never pass legislation under “duress brought on by propaganda, misinformation, and fear mongering,” 2) surveillance authorized under the PAA would continue even if the law lapsed, and 3) it wouldn’t improve the Dems’ negotiating position.
I’m ok with a 15-day extension…and then another…and another.
are you a real Mainer, as in born and bred?
Transplant. Grew up in Indiana, Michigan mostly. Moved here as an adult, about 25 years ago.
Al Quieda has retreated to the Horn of Africa, like the one’s that killed 5 GI’s yesterday?
I am sooo stimulated! “House passes economy stimulus package”
AP – The House, seizing a rare moment of bipartisanship to respond to the economy’s slump, overwhelmingly passed a $146 billion aid package Tuesday that would speed rebates of $600-$1,200 to most taxpayers.
The State of the Union blows. And rt’s gonn a get worse before it gets better.
Heh. Good for him. The sole guy that seems to get it. Shame it doesn’t appear to matter.
Kucinich opposes the extension for the same reason
Are we gonna invade Hornistan?
Shorter Lungren: Spying on Americans is your patriotic duty
Inhofe, who claims every chance he gets that global warming is a figment of our collective imagination. The ignorant son-of-a-bitch who called Gore a liar (essentially) when Gore last testified. This is one of the stupidest Senators I have ever seen. Usually they would keep the likes of Inhofe down in the House. He must have some seriously corrupt ties with money to be able to afford to keep this dumb sucker in office, because I can’t believe ordinary people would elect him otherwise.
easy
I’m thinking the Senate isn’t gettin’ as stimulated as the House
Imbecile.
Yea, he must be the prezidential speech coach.
Idiot.
That was in reference to bmaz’ “just shoot me” — didn’t mean to offend.
Somebody shut Inhofe up. “the God of liberty”????
I am sooo stimulated! “House passes economy stimulus package”
The Senate will make a spectacular show with this legislation. It’s going to be a real mess.
is this Inhofe idiot praying in the Senate? “we don’t fight alone, there is a God watching over us” Iraqi freedom fighters? Aren’t they fighting us?
Didn’t offend me, I just know how we like to limit those kinds of expressions since they are easily taken out of context.
Senator Webb up now in the Senate.
Okay. Webb calling BS on Bush’s statements about Vet benefits. You go, Jim!
been away from tv and computer… do i understand correctly that there will be a 15 day delay on the PAA sunset?
That sounds like a Democratic thing to do… help your neighbor :>) the Rethugs would never do anything remotely like that… it might be helping one of those lazy poor bastards! Not on there dime!Q
Yep. 15 day extension. Rep. King says he’s in favor of it, other have said in favor of this “modest” extension. Face saving to President Bush is all it is. Any Senator (Dodd comes to mind) has the ability to object to this being brought up, and then object to voting on it (two back to back cloture maneuvers) but to do so at this point would make HIM solely responsible for a PAA lapse. He won’t object.
Fair enough, I’ll be more careful to include the quote next time, so the tongue-in-cheek reference is clear. Sorry ’bout that.
That is the rumored settlement, but there has been no vote in the Senate. I don’t think the House has voted yet, either, but I’m watching the Senate.
House GOP all blithering about terra terra terra for generations . . . .
Lets see now. $15,000,000,000 a month for losing wars. Is that what’s termed more Bush bang for the buck. The old “idiotem” of, if you want to cure a bad economy; start a war has been proven to be incorrect thinking.
The Senate can debate FISA from this point. Then whatever it passes goes to conference, unless the House agrees to pass S.2248 as passed by the Senate.
I didn’t hear how the 30-day bill, which I thought already existed, got replaced by the 15-day extension.
I assume this comment, and that at 251, refers to Reid and not to Phred? Cause otherwise we are going to have an issue….
cboldt- thanks for indulging me in my OT questions. Yes, same as I know, Fire Lane XXX. Having grown up in CA, I was surprised to learn that the Fire Depts where I visit are totally Volunteer Fire depts. We really are such a diverse nation in so many ways.
Shorter King: Surveilling isn’t invasion of privacy, it’s protection!
Shorter Gohmert: Be afraid, very afraid.
“Tell the terrorists not to call them at home”? WTF?
Shorter Shays: That kiss! I will never forgit it.
This is not a government by and for the people. Obviously. And not incidentally. Just who are “the people”?
You just threw me into a tangent thought with that comment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8mse0CsrGY
anyone know why or how we can fix this:
CSPAN off and on is running a screen tag that says:
The measure would extend for 15 days the FISA act, which is set to expire.
I thought this was the Patriot Act and that FISA would continue.
Chris mathews is still thinking about the stimulus package that paraded around the deck of the USS Lincoln (”Mission Accomplished”).
Hey, I’m just one of the troops but I like to get Christy and Jane’s back. . .since they have to tell me to STFU now and then!
House will vote on whether to give a 15-day extension, nobody can “object” in the House as they can in the Senate, there’s no “cloture” in the House as there is in the Senate. I’m afraid it may be correct that Dodd would not be willing to single-handedly torpedo the extension, but he could at least force the GOP & Blue Dogs to override him with 60 votes. But as cboldt and others have explained, they probably don’t have enough time to deal with cloture in the Senate and send it back to the House, because the House is going on recess tomorrow.
there has been no vote in the Senate. I don’t think the House has voted yet
The House won’t have time to debate and pass one extension, then another with a different duration, before the day is done. The House is debating a 15 day extension, and CSPAN reports that the Senate will pass it as well.
Brand new bill, probably entered today. Once this is passed by the House, the Senate will get it out of the way. it stands more or less separately now, from S.2248.
And they’re still scared to death and convinced that GWB is doing all this just to protect them and that it’s effective and working. I think there are a lot of people out there that have never lived under a dictator, (even a benevolent dictator is not what I’ve bargained for) and can’t imagine ever having to. They see no relationship between the over-reactions of a President and a power grab that is a weird sort of coup, almost completely taking out the powers of our most direct representatives and disrupting our judicial system to the point we’re not sure it’s essentially reparable. Lord help us, I hope our fellow citizens wake up before it’s too late.
You’d have to be an idiot to call Beerfartliberal and idiot!
The GOP aren’t very good at math. They failed to employ the other 1/2 of the equation: War + increased taxes = invigorated economy. But, you know, the US economy is of no concern when all ‘their’ money is in Dubai or China or anywhere but here.
Thanks for the clarification.
Maybe now Congress will get serious about defending it’s constitutional powers
They read the WaPo and that’s the kind of nonsense they’ve been printing and sending out on the wires all week.
To any with enough energy to read this and forward to science-minded Dems in the Senate and House – information sent to me today via a computer science list-serve [”IP” listserve appears to tag me -perhaps erroneously - as an ‘Interesting Person] appears to discuss some very problematic vulnerabilities yet to be addressed in PAA. Email was forwarded to list members by list originator Prof Dave Farber of Penn and Carnegie Mellon – [former tech adviser to the FCC and a god of computer science] Issue discussed is by scientist Matt Blaze re a paper, “Risking Communications Security: Potential Hazards of the Protect America Act” to be published by IEEE this month. Matt’s science blog discusses both his paper [apparently a huge joint effort] and the issue:
http://www.crypto.com/blog/wiretap_risks/
As expected, the House is the only thing standing between us and no more 4th (or even 5th) Amendments.
We have to focus, and pound on, the House of Reps to NOT go along with immunity, etc. They are truly the only hope.
Obviously what we need in this country to cure our ills, such as education failure, health care collapse, the forclosure and debt crisis, among many other things, is more intensive domestic spying. Can’t you people see that?
Conyers is right, the extension just prevents rushing headlong. H.R.5104 was amended from 30 days to 15 days.
Just passed on a voice vote. Off to the Senate now.
No worries Raven. Just trying to be clear that I meant to be humorous. People sometimes tease me about my use of smileys, but I get myself in trouble when I leave them out ; )
watching the house vote….. whats going on?? i’m lost at this point….. absolutely no clue
thanks for the update folks. you’re the best.
we cool
Here’s a graphic showing Words used in the SOTU, weighted.
Two things I love. Math and English. Both not evident during the last seven or so years. That’s only… my perspective though. ;0)
What the hell does that mean? *G*
” The executive order will tell agencies not to obligate or expend funds from a nonstatutory source, including requests in committee reports, other congressional documents, or communications from or on behalf of lawmakers, according to a White House briefing paper on the upcoming mandate.”
SOB
Whoa,
the House just passed 15 day extension on voice vote only?!
Each member voted individually on recognizing LSU nat’l champions, but FISA extension passes on voice vote?
Tell me I’m wrong.
My understanding is that some comments shouldn’t even be made in jest as not everyone can understand the humor, even if there is a smiley face attached.
watching the house vote….. whats going on?
The House is done dealing with FISA for now. It took up a bill providing a 30 day extension (HR 5104), amened the extension from 30 days to 15 days, debated it briefly, then passed with a 2/3rds majority (waiving all rules requires a supermajority of this size) on a voice vote – no roll call.
Announcement of passage will occur in the Senate forthwith.
Levin up in Senate, C-SPAN2, talking about some Armed Services Committee issue, not about the PAA extension. Oh, and it’s the PROTECT AMERICA ACT, not the Patriot Act, that is being extended. Patriot Act created Dept. of Homeland Security, all that consolidation of customs & immigration, etc. Nothing to do with FISA.
Kagrox explains what Bush did with that bill we thought he had pocket vetoed.
http://www.dailykos.com/
Looks like permanent bases in Iraq. Bush says so.
How can we keep fighting these things? Pelosi…This has to stop.
Since I didn’t do that, then that should not be an issue eh? My question was whether or not BFL was describing Phred that way; so I am not really sure what your point is here. I have no truck with you and don’t wish to with BFL or anyone else, but I do protect my friends; especially if they are being attacked wrongfully under a misunderstanding.
I believe Dick Cheney is the nastiest politician I have encountered in my lifetime.
This dope Inhofe says they have retreated from Iraq but they are the ones, by reports, who set the ambush in Mosul yesterday. I was just pointing out how fucking stupid he is.
One of his last stabs at relevance.
the House is the only thing standing between us and no more 4th (or even 5th) Amendments.
Congress or the Courts.
Actually what he was talking about was hugely important — yet another example of Bush’s abuse of signing statements on the defense authorization bill. Remind me why impeachment is off the table?
Ah, if only I spoke clearly!
Defeat the Republicans next November!
Considering what we’re already paying for GWB’s ego trip in Iraq, that’s a small price to pay for redeeming the integrity of our Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the separation of powers and the rule of law.
So, time to get out our calendars. Fifteen-day extension means fifteen days from the sunset date in PAA, which was when, Feb. first? So, the PAA dies at midnight between Feb. 16th & Feb. 17th, meaning midnight on Saturday night the 16th? So our FAX-a-Thon needs to start up again on Monday, Feb. 11, or thereabouts? Or will Reid calendar this train-wreck for the week of the Super Tuesday primaries?
Well it made me laugh since everybody knows that Al Qaeda is basically everywhere, so the idea of them retreating to the Horn of Africa is ludicrous.
OMG…if this is true that you will need DHS documentation to return to the US if you are traveling anywhere…:
http://dailykos.com/storyonly/…..887/445578
Or will Reid calendar this train-wreck for the week of the Super Tuesday primaries?
The Senate will deal with it this week. Then off to the House for “whatever,” either they take it up, or demand a conference. If a conference and there are changes, then the amended bill comes before each body for yet another vote.
Oh, I agree; just didn’t want to engender any misperception that it still didn’t hurt. We have all, as a collective, enabled this, despite a few of our strenuous objections (i.e. people like are here), and ultimately we reap what we have collectively sewn.
CSPAN contact number: (202) 737-3220
I called and spoke with the receptionist(?) and passed along the correction. Whether they apply it and how long it will take, I haven’t a clue.
Thanks bmaz : ) Not everyone reads upthread to understand the intentions, so misunderstandings occur.
Always glad to hear it when someone talks sensibly.
Bob in HI
How can (or will) the courts do ANYTHING if any and all lawsuits are killed because of immunity? The entire point of this is to kill the lawsuits and kill any inquiries. How do the courts do anything?
LOL! I’m anxious for Reid’s strategy to be revealed. Good money says 2/6 or 7.
“I’m ok with a 15-day extension…and then another…and another.”
I can’t agree. What you’re OK with is extending a bad bill indefinitely. Its lingering effects are bad enough even if it sunsets. Its better to let the thing die.
Bob in HI
Yeah, well, I guess I did cause this misunderstanding; but I know the restrictions here, and certainly didn’t violate any of them and you should not be attacked for responding to what I said….
It’s the difference between criminal suits and civil suits.
Philisophically and emotionally, I agree with you, but, logically, it’s the next best thing until a all-out win can be figured out.
my spelling sucks!
holt has been awesome on fisa – best in the house
Agreed; and boy did I misunderestimate (great Bushism) how lame Reid was. Here I was arguing he should not play a political stunt as opposed to just doing the right thing. He outdid himself and managed to pull off accomplishing neither.
Holt should have been made chair of Intel instead of Reyes.
Of course. Someone called Reid a maron. I tossed in idiot and imbecile to cover the i.q. scale some more. I forgot cretin.
That’s fine but how do you even go about that if you cannot acquire any evidence (and the Congress has gone out of its way to deny you access to any evidence) that they are spying on you?! That is the entire Kafkaesque nature of this shit. They are violating everyone’s 4th Amendment rights but you cannot prove it because the evidence is secret and will not be released to courts…and courts therefore deny you standing because you have no proof.
I think that’s what they mean when they say that elections have consequences!
thx…. its a lil clearer lol – if they would only speak in more people friendly terms we’d be the better for it…..
Yup. And, sometimes you (meaning we the people) just don’t win. It’s not fair, I know. While some of us were up in arms about inconsequential things, ‘they’ were behind the scenes quietly but effectively dismanteling the peoples’ rights and basically creating a quasi-dictatorship. If you can look at it from outside of it (I realize how hard that is!), without any emotional investment, what ‘they’ have done is remarkable…in a sick, twisted, hitler-like kinda way. I don’t like what I’ve witnessed, but it is what we have to deal with now.
a-fucking-men!
that he wasn’t is, to me, evidence that the people making the decision were not that concerned with competent intelligence oversight.
It means more wild spinning of truth into oblivion. Before our invasion, the entire Al Qaeda force in Iraq could have held a meeting in a phone booth. Now they’re all over the place. “On the run” means “they have enough sense not to congregate in large numbers anywhere.”
Its all doublespeak.
Bob in HI
I agree with this. Remember, these are not private conversations. People who are not familiar with Firepup conversation style drop in unannounced, and have no idea who knows who, what the “in” jokes are, and may not even have any idea what a “troll” is. Stuff that we consider banter may be taken at face value.
Bob in HI