This caught my eye (via Yglesias):
Clinton and Obama’s divergent views on the troop surge in Iraq, however, were plainly visible.
When Bush proclaimed, “Ladies and gentlemen, some may deny the surge is working, but among terrorists there is no doubt,” Clinton sprang to her feet in applause but Obama remained firmly seated. The president’s line divided most of the Democratic audience, with nearly half standing to applaud and the other half sitting in stony silence.
I don't understand why half of the Democrats are applauding that. The point of the surge, as Bush made very clear last January:
A successful strategy for Iraq goes beyond military operations. Ordinary Iraqi citizens must see that military operations are accompanied by visible improvements in their neighborhoods and communities. So America will hold the Iraqi government to the benchmarks it has announced.
To establish its authority, the Iraqi government plans to take responsibility for security in all of Iraq's provinces by November. To give every Iraqi citizen a stake in the country's economy, Iraq will pass legislation to share oil revenues among all Iraqis. To show that it is committed to delivering a better life, the Iraqi government will spend $10 billion of its own money on reconstruction and infrastructure projects that will create new jobs. To empower local leaders, Iraqis plan to hold provincial elections later this year. And to allow more Iraqis to re-enter their nation's political life, the government will reform de-Baathification laws, and establish a fair process for considering amendments to Iraq's constitution.
How's all that going?
The surge was designed to give the Iraqi government breathing space for reconciliation, and so far, there has been little of that. The legislation which the president sought and the "benchmarks" that he called for last year have largely not been met. There is no oil law. There have been no provincial elections. In his speech, the president noted that the Iraqi parliament recently passed a de-Baathification law; but he failed to mention that the measure is far more restrictive than the one the Bush administration had wanted.
Since the surge was announced, 937 Americans have been killed in Iraq. Last month, more Americans were killed than in June, 2003. For...what exactly? So that Iraq may at some point get around to getting some of the things on Bush's laundry list done, so that may in turn lead to some form of government that's possibly functional at some point in the future. Great.
A reduction in violence to 2003 levels was not the goal of the surge. Political reconciliation was. BushCo doesn't need our help in rewriting history. And we sure as hell shouldn't be applauding a failed policy that has taken the lives of 937 more Americans and who knows how many Iraqis just so Bush could pass the buck to the next President.
Enough.
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Hey BT
Is there coffee here?
Good afternoon fellow texan.
One American life for every lie they told to get us into this war.
Hiya BT
Shorter SOTU: “Aren’t I wonderful? Catch!”
Crap, I should have quoted the whole thing. let me fix that.
One American life for every lie they told to get us into this war.
Mo’ betta.
A little Peet’s Sumatran…. mmmm good and hot…. cream & sugar maybe?? It is available on line… now you can enjoy the west coast’s best coffee :>)
http://www.peets.com/shop/coff.....e4-_-Image
Try Jittery Joe’s in Athens!
Thanks a latte!
Hello Blue Texan -
Not only have we lost 937 Americans since the surge began but the Iraqis have lost more in their police and military forces. Ethnic clensing continues. Millions of Sunnis have become refugees fleeing to border countries.
Amen. Truth, not revisionism.
you know, usually I don’t mind if a democrat agrees with a republican in contradiction to party line
IF that contradiction has a legitimate foundation and a gray line in reasoning
however the surge is a clear failure and there is no gray, it has failed at every single aspect promised or hoped
the one area the surge has worked however is the goal to force future administration to stay in Iraq
for that goal it has been quite the success
epu-ed — try hot dark chocolate. If it’s not caffeinated, it should be. Health food, too….
Great post, Blue Texan, as usual. I don’t understand why some people call themselves Democrats when they vote with Rethugs more often than not. Landrieu, for instance, seems to think she can betray Democratic principles and curry favors with Rethugs, even when the Dem majority is on its way up, and still do right by her district. That formula doesn’t seem to have worked out very well so far, but she remains seemingly convinced that betraying her constituents will get her re-elected. Obviously she thinks nobody is watching or that nobody cares. Interesting, but it sucks all the same.
Now let me see. If I have crimes happening on my block and the police sends in fifty cops and the National Guard to quell crime, that will work. As long as they are there crime is reduced. When they leave, it’s business as usual. The surge works.
Java Jive
One applauding Senator I can think of voted to authorize the war, never apologized for the vote, has been a hawkish cheerleader for years, is friends with and has supported Joe Lieberman politically, and is, after all, the preferred Democratic candidate of the Military Industrial Complex.
Best espresso blend is at Tom and Dave’s
http://www.tomanddaves.com/
Hi, BT…
The math:
Baghdad = 250 square miles.
640 acres per square mile.
Surge = 30,000 troops.
That equates to (250×640/30,000) =
The “surge” equates to an average of 5.3 ACRES PER ONE ADDITIONAL TROOP.
Now what the hell effect is one additional troop going to have in 5.3 acres?
NONE.
So: Violence has therefore temporarily quelled for other reasons. But Hillary believes the surge has worked. She’s not only a hawk but too lazy to do the math.
Even if it “worked” — why would this be good? More troops were killed and maimed and put in harm’s way in the process. Iraqis go into hiding and pop back out if they so wish when we leave.
Hillary appears amazingly naive at best. Can’t have that in a Prez.
OK caffeine kicking in.
It was disturbing to hear some say on the radio yesterday that the American people are moving on to talk about Pakistan, the economy, etc., and away from Iraq. I am not sure if I agree with that. But I am concerned that the priorities will change before Nov.
Enough. Yes Blue Texan
Landrieu is Repug-lite. She’s facing a tough Repug opponent in the next election. Howie Klein has said to let her sink…
My cynicism says we’re keeping troop levels at a minimum not out of incompetency but as political cover for Blackwater to hold onto the oil. Bushco doesn’t care about democracy in Iraq or even “winning”. Oil only.
It’s not being naive. IT’s the old Clinton triangulating. Either way, it’s not good.
Is she getting primaried?
Meanwhile here’s a little about Mike Huckabees ability to deal with with homegrown terrorism.
Arkansas Teenage Mass Murderers released on their 18th Birthdays rearrested
Faith-based sentencing?
From AFSC on their campaign to Defund the war on Iraq and Re-Fund human needs at home and in Iraq.
For what we have spent for just ONE DAY of the Iraq War, we could have funded:
• 95,364 Head Start Places for Children or
• 12,478 Elementary School Teachers or
• 163,525 People with Health Care or
• 34,904 Four Year College Scholarships or
• 6,482 Families with Homes
Bush told his biographer, Draper, that it is his goal to induce his successors to keep troops in Iraq indefinitely. His actual words were to the effect of making them feel comfortable doing so. In fact, what he is doing is to attempt to make them uncomfortable bringing the troops home. So Petraeus is attempting to make sure that the civil war that would ensue if U.S. troops were withdrawn would be a lethal as possible, i.e., he is arming and training both sides, the Sunnis (aka Awakening Brigades) and the Shiites (aka “Iraqi government) independently. Clever shit!
After 3 cups of Eight O’Clock, now working on a watermelon cream slush.
In America, as in the rest of the world, Poliicians are allowed and even encouraged to think of themselves as different from everyone else.
As a result, they often develop colossal egos, sometimes reaching the loftiest standard of meglomania. Actually, this is quite common a malady in the sub-species.
The drearily predictable result of such cultural proclivity is a George W. Bush, a Hitler, or a Caligula …
‘Politicians’ believe it their DESTINY to make ‘HISTORY’; which raises hell for other people, one way or another.
The ‘good’ news is that the ‘people’ of the world are becoming ever more weary of this costly and destructive pattern.
The ‘bad’ news is that the earth is growing weary of people …
If we continue to behave as we have in the past, then our future looks grim.
‘Change’ anyone? Or shall we continue to look to ‘Politicians’ for ‘leadership’?
CNN breaking: Maxine Waters to endorse Clinton
yeah they paid off the insurgents to stop killing Americans.. I think it would cost the American people a lot less if we just brought our home where they belong and stop the war for oil….
maybe this illustrates something–maybe it says that HRC is a great tactician and studier of govt and policy, but that she has a tin ear for politics. she works hard, but she doesn’t catch the wave.
I mean healthcare was all worked out down to the tiniest detail but it failed not as policy–it never got there–it failed on politics and clicking with people.
Clapping for the surge and standing. that is nuts. but is a calculation based on fear of being targeted as not supporting the war; but wait–most Americans think it was a mistake to go and a mistake to stay.
Blue Texan–you can add $120 billion wasted a year to the 1000 dead Americans and further destruction.
I believe she knows she will not get re-elected - guess she has given up any democratic principles. Katrina did her in.
I always wonder why, if having troops there is so important, Bush can’t get anyone from his family to serve. It makes it seem like Bush is trying to pull a fast one. Someone from a pious, honest family like the Bush family would never do that, would they?
This is so totally true, dov12348. And its even more of a joke when you add in the square miles of other provinces where combat battalions surged, like Anbar. Petraeus made a big show out of Anbar quieting down, but said nothing about Diyala blowing up at the same time. Ground commanders (Colonels, Majors, Captains) admit it’s just a goddam “whack a mole” out there in the desert.
I hear ya, but at some point triangulating doesn’t work anymore — you might gain one but you lose the other(s). Or you lose everybody.
So if she thinks hailing the “success” (gotta keep a straight face, man) of the surge is part of a triangulation strategy, then maybe she’s naive about that as well — this would actually support my point.
Hi folks….
“Political reconciliation was.” (Goal of surge).
Isn’t this reconciliation based on monetary means?…
(Throwing money at all factions to ease tensions. What happens when the money dries up?…)
Sad, but true: Landrieu and others are reflections of their states’ politics. Dem voters in Louisiana are moderate to conservative. When that changes, Landrieu or her successors will reflect the new politics.
Yeah, I can see that. But you know what I’d rather do? Let her win and then ask her to leave the party; let her feel like a man with no country, so to speak. Let her know we have no further use for her, we don’t trust her, we don’t trust her judgment. Let her know that there are consequences to being a turncoat. We are going to need a serious number of new Dem Senators, because I would do the same to Lieberman. That means we need a majority of at least 62 Senators. Is that even possible?
Bush looks at acreage through the eyes of a successful brush rancher. One troop can clear 5 acres in not time, just like Bush does.
I know…it’s like they hope there are enough low-IQ-types in the listening audience that this “surge success” bullshit might actually sell.
Don’t have time to read all the comments, so forgive me if some one has made this point already, but regarding
“getting some of the things on Bush’s laundry list done,”
many of the things on Bush’s laundry lists concern turning Iraq into a US military base and energy resource colony, and these were not the advertised goal of the invasion and occupation. If they were, the vast majority of US citiznes would have opposed the whole misdadventure. So even giving Bush Cheney that amount of credit goes too far.
heh heh. ‘cept that “brush” has guns & ammo & IEDs & lots of Baathist army training how to use them.
She was clapping in an effort to portray that she supports the troops, not the war. Her clapping to support the war would be political suicide. Regardless, Camp Clinton will say she was clapping to support the troops.
Please, please, please….can we Impeach Now????!!!:
http://dailykos.com/story/2008...../32/445408
Bush and the Republicans create narratives and they know how to replace one narrative with another. Iraq was all about WMD and the Twin Towers. When that didn’t pan out it was about Saddam being a bad man. Rose petals, became deadenders, then an insurgency, and finally a civil war. The story changed from a cheap and glorious victory to leaving would cause a complete and absolute collapse. 4 years into the conflict, Bush decided it was time to have a Plan, one to replace all the little plans that had gone on before. The surge was born and trotted out for all the world to see. The surge has now run its course. It can not be sustained. It never accomplished its goal and never followed the Plan set out for it. No problem. The goals were rewritten. That the surge had to end is recast as that it was so successful that troops can be brought home.
Each narrative is introduced, repeated often, and then treated as if it is the one and only narrative that has ever been. Older narratives simply cease to exist. If the current narrative is contested with facts, these are denied. The narrative is repeated. Meanwhile the next new narrative is prepared and the cycle repeats itself.
This just makes me want to curl up in a ball and cry. Bush wants the world to remember him as a peacemaker? But really wants to keep the war going. He is surely crazy.
New Thread upstairs folks—-Aloha!…..
it’s just like it was in Vietnam–eventually we gotta go home and let them run their own country.
I mean the Romans arent still in France and England and Germany, are they?
Nancy Pelosi considers your request:
“Ummmm……………………..no.”
Amen, Tex!
Is it okay if someone asks Clinton if she thinks we’re “winning” in Iraq?
I’d like to hear her respond to that.
And if her response happens to be “Yes”, or anything remotely close to it, I’d like to ask her supporters if Hillary plans to out-support John McCain on Iraq, instead of hanging THAT giant issue-turd around their necks.
(Which, incidentally, we HAVE to do, to win this election.)
The real state of the union:
http://www.therealstateoftheun.....nt/winner/
HRC is what the French call a ‘bonne eleve’. This translates into ‘good student,’ but it is actually a put-down. It means someone who got where they are by hard study, but no imagination. She’s earnest and able, but she doesn’t have and never will have the touch her husband had, not to mention her two chief opponents in the primaries.
The Clinton’s are so badly scarred by what the Right Wing did to them, that they can no longer take chances, and her not standing up would have been a very small chance. I think that says it all about this talented, misused woman.
I don’t believe for a minute that this is a grand indication of divergant views on the war. The candidates are roughly equal. Via David Sirota.
Perris@12 nails it. Packing those 30K troops into what already amounted to the world’s largest hostage sitution, had two purposes:
To try to give bush and the petro-turds time to get out of Dodge and toss the grenade–sans pin–to the democrats, and to try to lock the dems into having to stay and keep pouring out troops’ blood, and our money, into the clusterfuck.
Of course, the former purpose is the important one, since if the latter one fails and Iraq implodes, then, the NANO-second it starts to happen, it will all be the dems fault.
And; SENATOR CLINTON; any democrat who applauds any aspect of that bloody Hobson’s choice that you so unapologetically helped create, is nothing but one more warpimp, and as far as I’m concerned, you can join Joe Lieberman on the podium at the Republican convention, and in so doing, finally take one honest position.
How can you call HRC talented except at taking speed tests and “doing well in school”.
The Clintons never had any real opposition until they had to deal with Obama and where are their heads? In an undeveloped position, that is for sure.
David Sirota: Obama on Iraq. Laudable or Damnable.
This “talented misused” woman has been crapping on progressive heads for the past 5 years. Because of her huge negatives with a TON of american voters, if she goes down, bush and the GOP will be standing on the deck of the Titanic, horrified as their single, large, lifeboat, heads for Davey Jone’s locker, right along with them.
That she applauded bush’s idiot assertions about the surge working, while Obama refused to join in the “mission accomplished” redux bullshit, should tell all we need to know about which candidate deserves our support.
If we’re insane enough to nominate her, will her supporters and defenders beam proudly as she agrees with John McCain that the surge is working?
tanbark. Didn’t get a chance to respond to the Hillary flag burning question. Hillary voted against the Hatch legislation. But sponsered an alternative:
Rollcall indicates Obama voted yes for that amendment. So the differences in position on this issue between those two candidates?
Dont know how many others are as incensed as I am about these chain emails being sent to religious groups and others that question Sen. Barack Obamas patriotism and religious beliefs. (See press link to last weeks open letter from Jewish groups being bombarded with these emails: http://www.adl.org/internet/Letter_obama.asp)
The use of the Internet to spread false information about a political candidate— and thus to affect the outcome of an election— is particularly abhorrent to me.
We cannot regress to old-style dirty tricks. In the public interest, we need to get behind these emails—and identify who originated them.
If you have received such an email, please forward it to me.
negemail53@gmail.com
Letting her sink is exactly what we should do with Mary Landrieu, though perhaps in light of what has happened to Louisiana we should re-phrase that to let her go to Hell.
The only way Mary Landrieu can be useful to progressive Democrats is by our demonstrating that we will not lift a finger to save her, even though it means that we’ll lose the seat. Then other DINOs can contemplate the cost of their continual breach of faith with the Democratic voters and donors who put them in office. By making a public sacrifice of Landrieu, who’s likely to lose anyway, we may inspire Salazar, Pryor, Bill Nelson, Stabenow, and others, who at present see no downside to abandoning the party whenever it’s convenient, to save themselves.
Mui, Sorry. I have no interest in splitting hairs about Clinton’s support for the notion that flagburning should be a federal crime.
She co-sponsored the damnmeasure with Bob Bennett, one of the worst and farthest-right republicans in the Senate.
If she’d have been on our side, when he came to her and talked getting her support, she’d have told him to go shit in his hat.
You need to stop trying to whitewash her sucking up to the republicans.
One more time; if she were a male Senator named “Smith”, and was doing things like this, you and the rest of her defenders would have been all over “his” ass.
But, good point on Obama. I didn’t knon that. Let’s take him down a notch, too. But you wouldn’t have brought up either one of them, if I hadn’t pointed out to you that she was a co-sponsor of it with one of the biggest ‘tards in the Senate.
BTW, Obama had the temerity to NOT wear a lapel pin in that photo, for which he gets a point back, I think.
And if you think that Hillary and Obama’s reaction to bush’s alpine redoubt bullshit about the surge working is the same, then you’re very mistaken.
But, let’s talk about Bill for a moment. I think he’s gonna have a leash on for Super Tuesday. How about you?
And, here’s good ol’ Toles:
http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoo.....rTqJAxvTYC
:o)
I don’t understand why half of the Democrats are applauding that.
Is very distressing. Gonna be hard enough to combat the Rethugs spouting taht bullshit when the msm is passing it off as fact. But that’s waht our party-the whole damn party- should be doing. “The Surge” isn’t gonna work and isn’t gonna end unless there is some bullshit declaration of success. No democrat should be associated with this. Especially one (listenin HRC) who professes to be shocked and horrified with Bush’d conduct of the war. She’s gonna do the same? Hillary, you help yourself less and less every day with me.
If she’d have been on our side, when he came to her and talked getting her support, she’d have told him to go shit in his hat.
My mom used to say that all the time. Is that favored by the Irish?
The violence has been quelled largly by paying, arming, and training the Sunni in addtion to the the other groups there.
An AK, $20 a week, and military training aint a bad way to spend a year heading into a civil war.
Iraq War II is frozen but deadly.
—
TrueBlue @ 17
One applauding Senator I can think of voted to authorize the war, never apologized for the vote, has been a hawkish cheerleader for years, is friends with and has supported Joe Lieberman politically, and is, after all, the preferred Democratic candidate of the Military Industrial Complex.
-
Any Democratic support of Clinton and the Wars is not fooling others, any support for her on “globalization” is even pushing credibility (Obama has only a moderate edge on the war, being right from the begining but of course funding it anyway). The best we have is a debate where they are “all the same” and leaves one to choose between non-policy issues: gender, race, “experience” -v- speaking ability & “hope”, “the roaring 90’s” -v- “the future”, “moderate” -v- “uniter”. It sickens me to puke that I have to waffle between who is my #2 choice Clinton or Obama based on who did the least worse thing that day. With the endorsement of Ted yesterday I am leaning to Obama now and hope if Edwards does not win he keeps his delegates in case super delegates try to play any games with their votes. Is Al showing up to the convention? I am not really pro-Gore as he is not going to get into it, is a family dynasty man himself - but as I feel with Edwards he has likely have been enlighted over the last few years. Clinton seems to have forgone elightenment for tactics (some would perefer tactics), and Obama I am just not sure. I will be honest as well - the race just decides who’s lies we are going to experience (Edwards could be lying through his teeth and does not have the voting record).
Where has all the truthiness gone?
This time I will add the standard disclaimer that any D is better than any R in the president race (although if you could take 1/2 Ron Paul you might have something). That being said I will not necessarily vote for ANY D, though if an R wins I am going to set sail east or west.
I know this thread is drying up but what do people “expect” out of the different Presidents should they reach office (running more to the right and governing more to the left, doing exactly what they say, ruling more from the right even than they are saying, etc).
Shorter SOTU: “Aren’t I wonderful? Catch!”
–
Wanted to reply to this one as well. More like Hail Mary time:
“Go long!”
Oh, and the response to the SOTU was a snore - I listened to the entire thing and barely a word registered.
Beerfart; could be. I’m half Irish. :o)
But I first heard it from one of my D.I.’s at Parris Island. They all had Ph.D’s in profanity. :o)
(Maybe he was Irish, too, but I’m not sure. His last name was “Arnold”.)
You got that right! I considered voting for Edwards, but no more. Obama’s keeping his seat in that situation says it all. If there’s any chance for change, it’s him.
Anyone who is “surprised” at SHillary’s cheering applause for Bush’s lies that the “surge” (escalation) is working. She’s 100% pro-war, a tool of A*P*C and profiteer like the Bush family w/whom her hubby is so cozy.
If a warmonger like SHillary gets the Dem. nomination, why even pretend there’s an “opposition” party? 70% of the public belatedly realizes the war was a “mistake” (crime against humanity a better term) but the Demo. elite keep cheering
The only reality that Bush acknowledges is political. And the Surge has worked to take the political heat momentarily off the Republicans. That is all that matters.
Since when does doing a little legislative research count for ”whitewash?” Dick Durbin introduced the amendment to neutralize Hatch’s res. Bennett was the only Rethuglican to vote against the original flag burning proposal(he gets a gold star for that one, not a praise for his entire career). And Obama voted yea along with Bennett, Hillary and Lieberman and Durbin.
I wish you wouldn’t try to think you know my motives. I like truthiness as opposed to changiness. I would not for instance, applaud Clinton’s vote on Kyl/Lieberman. Nor would I applaud Obama’s absenteeism on that day.