It’s being reported in the comments that Hoyer announced on CSPAN1 that a 15 day extension on the Protect America Act has been agreed upon by the House, Senate and Bush:
The House is done dealing with FISA for now. It took up a bill providing a 30 day extension (HR 5104), amened the extension from 30 days to 15 days, debated it briefly, then passed with a 2/3rds majority (waiving all rules requires a supermajority of this size) on a voice vote – no roll call.
Announcement of passage will occur in the Senate forthwith.
Meanwhile, enjoy this exclusive video of Republicans negotiating in good faith with Democrats to give Dick Cheney and the telecoms retroactive immunity. (h/t Avedon)
Related posts:
- Extension and Delay in al-Haramain
- House Judiciary Committee to Propose PATRIOT and FISA Reforms
- Breaking: House Passes Waxman-Markey Energy Legislation
- Lieberman-Graham Threaten to Shut Down Senate, Add Detainee Photo Suppresion Amendment to FDA Tobacco Regulation Bill
- Can Skittles help fix the PATRIOT Act and FISA?
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Among other things, Dick Cheney makes me angry.
So, what do we need to do now to help Dodd? Fifteen days will pass quickly.
Another 90 minutes of “Morning Business”.
Must not be a done deal on the extension in the Senate!
Moving Rockefeller seems unlikely but we shold try to separate Mikulski and McCaskill from their chairman on this. That won’t be easy either but we need to find more votes for Dodd.
I was just saying in the prior thread that we probably need to start planning to relaunch our FAX-a-Thon (TM) on Monday, Feb. 11, unless somebody thinks Reid might calendar Round II of the train-wreck for Super Tuesday week (which is NEXT week).
cspan was saying that without passage of the 15-dat extension, the FISA act would expire. It’s a Gooper TP and goopers were on the floor saying Democrats dont care about protecting Americans they are more concerned about the civil liberties of terrorists.
CSPAN cant even get the screen crawler right–it was the PAA that would expire and surveillance could continue under FISA as it has for more than 40 years.
Of all this bullshit, the “Patriot Act” kills me the most.
make that 30 years.
And there are “Patriot Missiles” too.
from Glenns place
On the other hand, we have Judge Andrew Napolitano in his book ‘A Nation of Sheep’ (p. 175) tells us what real freedom lovers should know:
“As I write this, Congress has just voted . . . to change the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) so as to purport to give the president the legal authority to spy on Americans by listening to our telephone conversations and monitoring our computer keystrokes when we communicate with persons outside the United States, without a warrant issued by a judge . . . . I wrote above ‘purport to give’ because Congress lacks the authority to enable the president to spy on Americans without a search warrant. The Constitution prohibits such behavior, and Congress can not change the Constitution. Period.”
they CHOSE not to get it correct
The Senate will probably deal with FISA substantively, starting tonight or, more likely, tomorrow. The deal on number of amendments, debate times, allowances for cloture motions and so forth are being negotiated now.
It’ll be hard to prevent a 60 vote margin. Too many DEM Senators approve of the “not really immunity” sham that Rockefeller crafted.
My lady has come in from work and wants to know if I’m hungry. I know what that means. ;0) We are having fresh bbq’d oysters tonight.
I wrote above ‘purport to give’ because Congress lacks the authority to enable the president to spy on Americans without a search warrant.
Not totally true, but true in spirit. Regardless of the Congress passing (yet another) unconstitutional infringement of individual rights, on protection of privacy, there’s no remedy — especially not if the snooping is done in secret.
We live in a surveillance state. Soon to be an enforcement state. And, mistakes WILL be made. Humans being human and all.
phred:
That was Reid I called an imbecile and an idiot and a cretin. not you.
Jane is that the theme song of the Wingnuts?? :< )</p>
It would be a good idea for Democratic leaders to begin to explain to the public on teevee the real deal on FISA, PAA and telco immunity in a way that Joe Sixpack can understand. It appears that Democrats led by Reid wanted to capitulate and got called out by FLD, Greenwald, Marcy, and other netroots types. They will now need to put their cards on the table with the public. The smokescreen and acquiescence to Repugnant terra talking points needs to end now!
Incredibly, that guy is the FoxNews legal expert. That is how bad this crap really is; even the FoxNews legal expert knows…..
another clip of democrats and republicans bargaining in good faith
Mmmmmmmm. . . brains!
Sounds great what time are they ready??? I will be right over :>)
I was almost positive that was the case, and created quite the dustup in making sure…. My apologies.
And here’s the rest of Dan Quayle’s arsenal
Yes.
Judge Andrew Napolitano
Always good to be reassured that there are still many good judges out there…
I think extending the law AT ALL is idiotic, un-American, and abysmally stupid. To hell with all of them for stooping once again to debasement of the Constitution instead of standing up for it. In the end, the Dems will cave, as they always do, and once again, the emails will fly, urging all the progs to more useless action.
Been there, done that.
at least he KNOWS the law…funny dat
The House is the only thing standing between us and the loss of the 4th Amendment. We have to really impress upon our Reps that the 4th Amendment is NOT optional. They must stand resolute in conference: NO immunity. NO basket warrants. Maximum minimization.
The Senate is all but a lost cause.
They pass this shit (and they will) and I truly will vote against the Dems in November (at least against Senate dems). I certainly will never again give any money to these fascist dickwads.
My guess as to when the immunity issue will hit the Senate “hard” is late this week, Friday. This is a deliberate timing move by Reid to limit public outrage. He’s put the “Title I” stuff as “first,” and “Title II” (immunity) after all the Title I battles are done. Pretty good bet that all day tomorrow can be on Title I amendments, there are a dozen or so. The Title II debate may involve a cloture motion (but I doubt it, another capitulation in the back room — Dodd included — to agree to 60 vote margins on amendments the front end), and final passage will certainly involve a cloture motion.
The important vote on Title II will be a Feingold amendment. Specter/Whitehouse substitution is a sham, Feinstein’s “do it in the FISA Court” is a sham too. If I’m guessing right, there will a 60 vote margin vote to pass the Feingold amendment, stripping Title II from what is otherwise the SSCI version of snooping.
That’s the one that matters, and the Senators need to be “moved” by the time that vote is conducted. IMO, it’s a foregone conclusion. But I do enjoy the dramatic circus known as the Senate.
yes let it be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67J_66hdN-I
I wonder how all this FISA business will shake out in the election cycle…
Reid is an abomination…tiresome his connivance…we SHOULD NOT BE HERE because of him
Is that code for something else?
That’s a point that should be shouted from the rooftops! Congress cannot change the Constitution without going through the process of Amending the Constitution. Period! (I think?!!)
you know… its not like they haven’t been snooping all along….. COINTELPRO anyone?
I wonder how all this FISA business will shake out in the election cycle…
I think it’s irrelevant to the voting public.
A fukkin men….will somebody scream it??????
HARRY needs to get it off the floor ,since he put it there
RIght, it hardly appears at all in the MSM.
“Homeland Security” is the term I despise. I was in the Charlotte airport on Sunday and was brought to tears when TSA chose the little elderly Indian woman walking with the aid of a cane in front of me to search more thoroughly.
its not like they haven’t been snooping all along
The debate on FISA circa 2007-8 is very similar to the debate involved in the Church hearings. One side said COINTELPRO was too important and sensitive, and the public had no need or right to know. Damage to national security, etc. New blowhards, new day.
Maybe a Pera and Donna Edwards victory will shake the Bush Dogs into voting against immunity, knowing that there political lives are on the line….
And yes, I’m talking to you Senator Ken Salazar!
What office is Britney running for again? Better watch some more TV to make sure….
OBAMA from Kos
A grassroots movement of Americans has pushed this issue to the forefront. You have come together across this country. You have called upon our leaders to adhere to the Constitution. You have sent a message to the halls of power that the American people will not permit the abuse of power – and demanded that we reclaim our core values by restoring the rule of law.
It’s time for Washington to hear your voices, and to act. I share your commitment to this cause, and will stand with you in the fights to come. And when I am President, the American people will once again be able to trust that their government will stand for justice, and will defend the liberties that we hold so dear as vigorously as we defend our security.
15 days…hmmmm…let’s call that a “Dodd Unit”. If we can stall this for only 23 more “Dodd Units” then Bush will be out of office.
death of shame
It may be a new day, but it is the same blowhards behind all of this.
What I don’t get (and maybe I’m stupid) is how the Senate honestly does not share in the 4th Amendment concerns of the DFH’s out here in Blogtopia. I get why the republicans don’t…they’re brain-dead ass-lickers, but I would think that “our side” would at least get be able to sustain the Constitution.
Oh, yeah. They can’t even put out a press release clarifying the fact that the “Protect America Act” is not the same thing as FISA. Dopey moi.
First off the idea that gaining acces to the telcom data will prevent terrrists is just crazy. Telecom data is shit for one. Add to that, the fact the terrrists, especically with the major marketing and resulting revenue created by bush himself, can spoof data be it telephone or data, faster than they can figure out its spoofed. Especially international data. Too many standards to many variables to lead to concrete information. Lots of dead ends, lots of opportunity for them to misrepresent their “saved the world” senario but no real results. Its just a bogus bullshit reason bush continues to give. Without legal access to the data, they can’t float their millionth “saved the world” senario with any “ligitimacy”.
There’s something else they want to do with it. Something else they’ve already done with it. Perhaps they want to cover up their own tracks by doing some spoofing of their own? Bushco has already paid the telecoms for their “services” and we don’t even know what those services were…. passing it makes sure we will never have the ability to find out just what they’ve already done. If it was during the 9/11 initial aftermath is one thing, so come clean about it. Just say what the fuck was done, go to court, get a decision. To ask for immunity in the Congress itself is to preclude the judicial branch and by even including it in a bill is unconstitutional. Isn’t it?
Does that mean Obama will do something *now*? Or is this just another “trust me, baby, I’d never lie to you”?
it is THE reason to let it die…hold it up Senator Dodd…hold it up Keith …everybody get your copy and hold it up
who the hell knows…..this is a NOBRAINER
$$$$$ from telecom lobby trumps 4th Amendment for Blue Dogs.
Because he is showing that he at least acknowledges us and (at least for now) is pledging to stand with us, I voted for him today in the Florida primary. If we can continue to keep the pressure on him, I hope that we can keep him in a position where he has to incorporate the progressive view into his actions. Kennedy’s endorsement also helped me get there.
Images of J. Edgar Hoover . . .
in tafetta.
OT:
What is up with no mention of Katrina in the SOTU…or the Democratic weak tea response? I mean the response even mentioned how great they fixed up the counties in Kansas from the twisters…nothing about glittering casios and poor people turned out on their ear.
Exactly. That statement sounds good, but what the hell does it really say? Nothing that I can tell. Will he make FISA and the lies of the Administration and GOP a part of his stumping? Will he show up to his day job to do the heavy lifting? What?
Okay, this is the new framing: The Republicans need to hear (over and over) that the PAA will give the next POTUS, Hillary Clinton, the right to spy on them.
Does Mitch McConnell really want that?
what other laws will they violate ?
The Republicans in the Senate are in a fix, at least for now, and have little choice but to agree to the House-passed fifteen day extension. That is because the House is adjourning for a long planned retreat. Any substantive legislation on this out of the Senate would have to await the return of the House next week, meaning that the PAA would expire Friday at midnight. The Senate Republicans will agree to the short extension. They just wanted a dramatic background for Bush’s nine sentences on FISA last night. That moment has passed. So will the House’s fifteen day extension.
Our worries shold be focused on: what then?
i e….. same ole shit – new wrapper……
I love it! mcjoan said on Kos that Obama gave that statement to FIRE DOG LAKE! And there is a LOT more in it, including that he is co-sponsoring Dodd’s amendment to strip retroactive immunity.
Um, all of them.
jeeebus in a Ferrari……we have a serious recession….we shoulda bopped over the head with this till they were down and out…most important OUT
I’m kind of surprised that we haven’t seen some kind of amendment that would allow the lawsuits to proceed, but cap the damages so that it wouldn’t “bankrupt the telecomms”, thereby removing one of the Admin’s talking points.
IIRC – isn’t that what they basically did with the tobacco settlement?
All of this effort will lead to Bush issuing a signing statement making things the way he wants anyway. There will not even be a whisper from the Deomcrats when he does that.
THIS IS FOR JANE and/or science gurus on this list [Left a slightly less informative note on earlier list]
A new paper is soon to be published by IEEE by a group of computer scientists from Penn, Princeton, SRI, Sun and Columbia on vulnerabilities put into place by PAA that have yet to be addressed.
a PDF was put up in advance of publication, at
http://www.crypto.com/papers/paa-ieee.pdf
[Alert on this tech paper went out from one of the authors to a listserve run by a former admin tech adviser to FCC who has been a CS Prof at Penn & Carnegie Mellon] I am not a computer scientist [I’m on the list only bc the hubby is & I used to be a congr aide] but URGE those among us who are savvy in such tech issues to review this and send along a cogent summary of these scientists’ fears to your state’s senators, as I am doing. THANKS
Here’s Jane’s post on the statement from last night.
What is up with no mention of Katrina in the SOTU…or the Democratic weak tea response?
Katrina? I remember hearing something about that – as for the pol’s however, seems that it done slipped their minds.
some days I just find myself wondering why I haven’t hung a heavy-bag in the living room….
Here’s my guess: Reid will schedule the Title II votes for next Tuesday, and try to bury the story in the primary coverage. Once the big primaries are done, then there’s a chance for Clinton and Obama to get back to the Senate and (yeah, yeah) take a stand beyond press statements. The best option, I think, is to try and push any Cheney amnesty vote back past Feb 5.
the fuhrer is at it again
Ahh butm the tobacco companies weren’t breaking an existing law and violating the constitution… a little different situation.
That seems to be the elephant in the room. Reid and Company are putting on a show for the people, while working the levers in favor of the telcos (and Bush/Cheney) . They wouldn’t have even bothered with a dog and pony show, were it not for the heat applied by the netroots.
Great idea!
Can’t imagine the Republics sitting quietly on their hands for a Democratic President’s signing statements the way the Democrats do for this Preznit guy.
He was a state court judge in NJ. Good judge. Very well respected, well liked, popular. Knows his stuff.
FYI — Jane originally got that statement from Obama. That’s why McJoan’s link is to here when she quotes it. Jane’s been working her butt offf pinning folks down on this issue, so I wanted to be certain folks knew.
I wrote above ‘purport to give’ because Congress lacks the authority to enable the president to spy on Americans without a search warrant.
Not totally true, but true in spirit. Regardless of the Congress passing (yet another) unconstitutional infringement of individual rights, on protection of privacy, there’s no remedy — especially not if the snooping is done in secret.
We live in a surveillance state. Soon to be an enforcement state. And, mistakes WILL be made. Humans being human and all.
—
I am not an expert, but I thought the SCOTUS could strike down un-constitutional laws. Of course they will not…
D’OH! Thank you.
So, whats a suggested strategy to keep the netroots moving on this? A snail mail movement along with continued faxes? I imagine Jane and Christy will post a “strategy session”.
We have to continue the pressure no matter the “back-room plan”…
I was just thinking the same thing. We need to get the phones and faxes going to Harry as soon as (if) the Senate passes the extension, asking him to delay taking any of the bill up until Wednesday of next week. Then we can really ratchet up the pressure on the frontrunner(s) to take a real stand.
I’m on my way to vote. Is a vote for Edwards a wasted vote? IOW, will that vote benefit Clinton or Obama?
I am not an expert, but I thought the SCOTUS could strike down un-constitutional laws.
They absolutely can, and often do. The practical problem with obtaining a remedy to a secret action is proving the action is taking place. Who has the right to stand before the court? Is your privacy violated if you can’t prove somebody is snooping?
CSPAN-2: “The Senate is waiting for a member to come to the floor to speak” … Don’t think I’ve ever seen that before.
Oh, now I see why I missed the Obama statement last night. It was posted at 1 AM east coast time, past my bedtime.
All three Dem Presidential candidates have issued statements formally opposing retroactive immunity. But the fifteen g-d Blue Dogs will kow-tow to the White House to let it pass (according to cboldt). Almost makes me wonder whether the Blue Dogs would even support Obama if he wins the nomination. Stop me before I get profane . . . .
no. do it.
A vote for Edwards will NOT be wasted because the Dem primaries are proportional, not winner take all, so Edwards is bound to win delegates in every primary if he continues scoring at his 19-20% rate.
I’m on my way to vote. Is a vote for Edwards a wasted vote? IOW, will that vote benefit Clinton or Obama?
I very much liked what someone else said here earlier today:
“In the primaries, vote your heart – in the general, vote your head.”
jeeebus in a Ferrari……we have a serious recession….we shoulda bopped over the head with this till they were down and out…most important OUT
—
Good point. For me the speaking style and cliches made it hard to even hear the words coming out of her mouth.
On topic:
Well….I guess Obama hearing the US Citizens kinda sorta like the Constitution is a good thing…
So, whats a suggested strategy to keep the netroots moving on this?
Whatever you’ve been doing seems to be effective. Being aware of action in advance of votes being cast, knowing enough details to make a credible and accurate request, and then knowing which Senators are amenable to public pressure on this issue.
I think ALL of the DEM Senators need to be bombarded, but only a few of them are in a position of maybe changing their votes. Most are either firmly pro-immunuity (e.g., Rockefeller) or anti-immunity (e.g., Dodd, Feingold). None of the GOP Senators is anti-immunity. Not a one. They are the surveillance state party, big government party, etc.
Ten Reasons to Vote for Edwards:
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/1/29/155546/479
And I think it is quite possible that one of the two front-runners may stumble badly after Super Tuesday. Hillary almost self-destructed in NC by letting Bill go all loudmouth.
oh yea, I remember that!
bush gave a concert on guitar while katrina drowned so he could claim his spot next to nero playing fiddle while rome burned
LOL!
I can’t believe it’s already 5 PM on the east coast. Where did the day go?
yep, it ain’t over till it’s over.
Thanks for the clarification, all. I’m gonna vote for Edwards.
How many intelligence agencies does one country need? One is enough. It should be lean and mean. It takes a “shoot first and ask questions later” mentality to qualify. No sound mental person would work for an intelligence agency.
it’s moving on to the other side of the world.
You guys are the heavy lifters
How Edwards could win the nomination, but probably won’t, The Edwards Scenario:
http://politicalinsider.com/20…..nario.html
one half hour for beer thirty
I dunno. I think both Valerie Plame and Larry Johnson have shown themselves to be quite sound mentally.
I’m kind of surprised that we haven’t seen some kind of amendment that would allow the lawsuits to proceed, but cap the damages
Schumer’s S.Amdt.3866 does this. There may be others, that’s the first one I bumped into.
FISA Amendment and Debate Links … handy focal point to the Congressional Record.
1984 George Orwell hanging in the US AG office…
Lights out time.
—
I’m on my way to vote. Is a vote for Edwards a wasted vote? IOW, will that vote benefit Clinton or Obama?
— I do not think it is a wasted vote. But if it was unlikely the delgates get counted (and he is not going to win FLA) I think it would benefit Clinton (who plans to pretend to have “won”).
Good point. But I’m wondering if it would be the type of compromise that might allow some senators to say that they were anti-immunity, but that they didn’t want the telcos to suffer too much? I’m thinking of the 12 Dems who voted for cloture on Thursday and who still might vote for immunity…
I think AJ from Americablog would disagree with you there as well. Along with a number of other folks that I know…
I kknow it’s only Tuesday, but I never heard of Jonathan Coultan before last week and now this is the second reference.
The first was and XKCD comic referencing Still Alive which was in Heavy Rotation chez Mack this weekend.
The guy is a full on nutter (and I mean that in the kindest possible way)
Great quote!
Senate’s back… Teddy Stevens, ick.
I am not an expert, but I thought the SCOTUS could strike down un-constitutional laws.
They absolutely can, and often do. The practical problem with obtaining a remedy to a secret action is proving the action is taking place. Who has the right to stand before the court? Is your privacy violated if you can’t prove somebody is snooping?
—
Good point. Could an opposition party or group take this to SCOTUS as a mis-use of Congressional power (that they passed a law the violates the Constitution). This goes to the whole secret secretes problem we have going on. “Hope” Obama does a little something about that wrt the Constitution.
So, is it true that they will not be meeting again for like a week?
My point exactly. I don’t know about Larry but look what happened to Valerie. She just wans’t baaad enough.
Senator Toobz now wasting the taxpayers’ time and money blathering on the floor of the Senate.
He can’t even read from a prepared script. Pitiful.
Great quote!
Thanks. Stole it fair and square…
someone could fall on their face…I harken to dean and contrary to the left blogs I actually believe that should have lost him the nomination
if oboma falls on his face edwards gets those votes not hillary
if hilary falls on her face then edwards would have a harder time but there would still be a race
aw shucks
WRT damages cap, “huge damages” is a total red herring by the pro-immunity faction. The real issue is political fallout, IMO. The administration is attempting to hide a policy of circumventing law, circumventing Congress, and circumventing transparency. The secret cowboy, as a matter of design and intention, acting that way as a rule, not as an exception. The public should be pissed at being kept out of the loop.
When the government had mail censoring during WWII, it was a public effort.
No, she just was a professional, unlike the clowns who outed her in the OVP, who were NOT professional members of the Intel community.
And Larry Johnson was a “classmate” of Valerie Plame (CIA recruiting class) and I believe is on record as saying that she was the best of the class.
Last I looked, neither works for an intel agency any longer
^_^
Bush blacked out (I think red inked) the “ban on permanent bases in Iraq” in his speech. He threw that out.
That is my problem with Obama in a nutshell.
Thanks for the links. Your blog is a good jumping off point.
True but it doesn’t make them any less of sound mind when they WERE working for the CIA.
I know we’re not getting OT because the mentality of some of the folks who work in intelligence is the reason we are rightly suspicious of giving them unfettered access to our private communications. But she IS a Quaker, she is morally opposed to any and all wars, so I can totally understand that she thinks intelligence agencies are inherently immoral because their primary purpose is to facilitate war.
I agree – from the Admin’s standpoint, this is more about CYA than the “poor telcos acting in good faith”. However, when I think about my Senator (McCaskill), I think she is caught between a rock (Sprint HQ in Kansas City, AT&T – major presence in St. Louis) and a hard place (us).
Could an opposition party or group take this to SCOTUS as a mis-use of Congressional power (that they passed a law the violates the Constitution)
They need to have a case. McConnell tried to sue to have parts of McCain/Feingold “tie your hands” law invalidated on constitutional grounds, and was told he should have dealt with it in the Senate.
But on the same law, Wisc Right to Life (IIRC) was able to get before a court and plead its case, as it had actually be prevented from airing position and maybe candidate advertisements. McConnell wasn’t prevented from “speaking,” but Wisc Right to Life was. That’s how they got into court.
State secrets is an independent barrier to fact finding and remedy. There are bills in Congress now that aim to reign the assertion of state secret in.
I just work to kick all the bums out of Congress. They don’t trust me, and I don’t trust them, so there is a mutual desire for separation of the current relationship.
In all seriousness, there is a need for VERY sharp VERY analytical types at the CIA in particular. Then there are the Ops types.
Not all cut from the same mold.
Analysts are CPA types.
Not certain what’s up with the NSA.
Used to stand for No Such Agency.
Mostly geeks thare – I think they grew out of cryptology and code.
The point is any ethical person of conscience does not qualify for the secret services unless they are willing to play dirty. If the SS agencies thought so highly of the Plame types, they would dominate the agencies. They don’t.
aw shucks
Was that yours? Well, look at it this way – I only steal lines that I consider to be of the highest quality…
I don’t think it has anything to do with those employers. It is her assignment as a freshman to the Senate Intelligence Committee and is part of her effort to build a relationship with her chairman. Rockefeller has asked for her vote on this and as a frosh she finds it nearly impossible to say no. If Mikulski cannot say no, how can McCaskill?
Not everyone working for the various intel agencies is a war monger. Many of them are working for these agencies in the hope that their efforts can actually help to forestall a war. Same as with many members of the active and reserve military.
Not everyone wearing a uniform or working for intel worships at the alter of the Darth Cheney and Neo-cons.
MSNBC reporting that Choate dumped KKKRove’s commencement speech. heh. Hope they give it to Colbert…
So why does my idiot (Salazar) want immunity? Qwest didn’t participate, so the local telco isn’t in danger. What’s his angle?
Oh, to be a fly on the wall right now in whatever smoky Senate meeting room the negotiations are being made…
When done properly, the point of an intel agency is to prevent war. The Bush Administration’s misuse and perversion of their purpose notwithstanding. We have lost a lot of very decent and honorable people who worked in our intel agencies and kept them on a proper path over the last 8 years — they quit in disgust or were forced out wholesale (like Valerie). This has an enormous long-term impacton all of us. No agency is perfect, not an intel one or a law enforcement one, any more that the EPA or the FDA may be perfect. But without committed, decent people walking the halls and fighting for a more just cause, we all lose. All of us.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/1/29/155546/479
10 Reasons to Vote for Edwards
Reward and advance progressivism.
We can argue about candidates’ voting records and try to gauge their instincts, but there’s no question that Edwards has run the most progressive campaign. The proof is plentiful. He’s embraced unions, the blogosphere, and the progressive movement as a whole. The stated and demonstrated rationale is to fight economic injustice; rhetorically and substantively, he’s run the most populist presidential campaign in years. On every major issue–taxes, climate change, health care, foreign policy, trade, you name it–he’s embraced policies more progressive than his rivals…
—-
Thanks for the link.
Florida Senator talking FISA on C-SPAN 2.
Sexby now up spouting the know-nothing talking points about PAA
i always try to imagine the horse trading that goes on there
Fantastic article!!!!! Thanks for posting that up. Great read.
I believe I read in the Hartford Courant that the school administrator who invited Rove in the first place is now going to make the commencemnt address.
And that Rove will be speaking there sometime in February instead.
Christy Hardin Smith January 29th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Hear hear! It’s a shame all the repair required in Intel as WELL as the Justice Department too. It’s going to take so long and so much effort to attract qualified and committed people BACK.
from the Admin’s standpoint, this is more about CYA than the “poor telcos acting in good faith”.
While the demand for immunity is driven, I am convinced, from CYA, I really don’t object to the judicious use of warrantless surveillance. Clinton had Aldrich Ames’s home entered and bugged without a warrant, but he had darn good evidence to suspect Ames was a double agent.
My basic objections are insisting on an opaque process, and Congress’s willingness to gut its own laws. The pro-immunity side is using such bad arguments that I can’t help but conclude some of them are lying for their own ends. Others, like Snowe, are too dumb to recognize illogical argument.
I haven’t watched McCaskill close enough to figure out her angle or her skills.
Sexby focusing on the US-person-abroad-to-non-US-person-abroad case. Wonder why.
I believe I read in the Hartford Courant that the school administrator who invited Rove in the first place is now going to make the commencemnt address.
And that Rove will be speaking there sometime in February instead.
The guy seems incapable of growing a pair, huh?
” Asked by the magazine if debate over U.S. counterterrorism techniques was hampering its effort in a “war of ideas,” Negroponte said, “We’ve taken steps to address the issue of interrogations, for instance, and waterboarding has not been used in years.”
Negroponte served from 2005 to 2007 as the first director of national intelligence, a position created by President Bush in the wake of the Sept. 11 attacks. Negroponte is now deputy secretary of state. He spoke in an interview published in the National Journal’s Jan. 25 issue.
“It (waterboarding) wasn’t used when I was director of national intelligence, nor even a few years before that,” he said. “I get concerned that we’re too retrospective and tend to look in the rearview mirror too often at things that happened four or even six years ago.”
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0129.html
Kit Bond as foil to Sexby. Kabuki at its very lamest. Is this a dogwhistle to somebody?
Aha, I did it again, I see. Sincerest apologies to all, I’m merely having a rotten day. Have sworn off nihilistic self-aggrandizement for the duration, in any case, now allowing only pure, immaculately conceived doom to pass my sensors.
In the meantime, I’m stunned. Maybe some part of all this does work. After all, the spineless jellyfish generated sufficient solidity to accomplish a purpose. Possibly for all the wrong reasons, but never mind. They also indicted themselves by proving that they could have done this years ago and altered the course of history like they were mandated to do but failed. I doubt I’ll ever forgive them that.
Nonetheless, the times demand we act as well as reflect. I will cast a ballot for John Edwards here in New Mexico on Tuesday and assume I get to vote for Obama in the fall. Even if the election is relatively meaningless in terms of effecting the required transformation of the death culture, the demonstration of an overwhelming rejection of this administration will have enormous symbolic power. Great inner change could come of it. Señor Obama seems well-positioned to surf this wave. If people REALLY want change, elect a black man with a name a pedicab operator in Karachi or a washerwoman in Rio will never forget.
This could even turn out to be fun. But see, I had to change the topic to get into a better mood.
MSNBC reporting that Choate dumped KKKRove’s commencement speech. heh. Hope they give it to Colbert…
all in due time: it’s an inchoate movement away from rethuglicanism…
Agreed. I kind of like him. That is why I have always been a bit perplexed he worked for FoxNews. Heh heh, Like I should talk, I have represented people you don’t even want to know about; I hope he is soaking Roger Ailes for a lot of dough….
Saxby: It was classified, but everyone has had the opportunity to ask questions, why are we still debating?
The crap is overflowing my hip waders.
I just checked. McCaskill is not on SSCI. However, as a junior senator, she may be a bit under the influence of our senior senator Kit Bond.
http://intelligence.senate.gov/memberscurrent.html
I agree with you and with dakine01 @133 but from the point of view of a Quaker, the war-supporting facet of intelligence agencies trumps everything else. I’m not a Quaker but I grew up among a ‘million’ of ‘em in the Philly suburbs and got to know them very well during Vietnam war protests. Quakers have a very strict moral code about this, I was just sticking up for QuakerGirl. I assume she IS a Quaker, just like RevDeb is really a minister, judging from the very honest nicknames some people give themselves over here.
Schumer’s S.Amdt.3917 is another that caps damages. It also creates a right to a civil cause of action “if that individual has refrained or is refraining from communications because of a reasonable fear that such communications would be the subject of electronic surveillance conducted without an order issued in accordance with title I of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.”
Those two Schumer amendments (3917, and whichever one I posted above) are the only two that use the word “damages.”
15 days. Almost Valentines day so there will be a lot of ass kissing. 15 days is certainly after the Feb 5th “super” primary may even be 2 days after invading Iran or Syria. These bastards will not go down without a fight.
Sounds like a good question for a Salazar staffer… :)
Almost Valentines day so there will be a lot of ass kissing.
You really ought to consider getting a different calendar…
Actually they’re still doing it, at least as far as a few years ago.
The link in the story’s dead but the story is true
This colloquoy between Bond and Chambliss, on its face, to any person who doesn’t realize what skeevy weasels they are, makes the GOP look good: like they actually are concerned to explain their really, really good law to worried civil liberties advocates. Why can’t we get a Dem in there to shut them up?
OK, so Sexby + Kit are really talking about minimization. They say it’s good. Huh. Why are they emphasizing minimization — the deliberate, selective destruction of some collected intelligence data — in the US-person-abroad-to-non-US-person-abroad case?
Now they’re on to reverse targeting in the same case, emphasizing that requires a FISA warrant.
These are not strong R points. What gives? I don’t get it.
Distraction from the immunity issue?
Hmmm.
OK, I guess. But MAN is it TRANSPARENT!
But don’t forget cboldt’s prediction, the Senate will continue working on all amendments tomorrow, Reid might get to votes on Title One by Friday and might schedule votes on Title Two (retroactive immunity) for right in the middle of the Feb. 5 Super Tuesday voting.
AH, the punchline: Well, we’re ready to pass this now. So it was just to distract from immunity. They still want 60 votes to strip immunity.
Dickwads.
Actually they’re still doing it, at least as far as a few years ago.
Thanks — I’d never seen that story. I got a big kick out of Senator Collins getting on the floor of the Senate to reassure the public that the mail in the USPS was treated with respect for the law regarding personal privacy. This was in reaction to disclosure of the secret TSP. She said that warrants (or other reasonable cause) had to be obtained to open the mail.
My thought was that she protests too much. I.e., it’s a giveawway that mail is being snooped too.
As for international mail, the rules for snooping are completely different. Just the same, the public is entirely too trusting of assurances from the government.
Yea… like Valerie Plame and Larry Johnson…
is a traitor and a coward… what he did to Max Cleland is inexcusable.. He should drummed out of this country never mind the senate to even broach the subject that a veteran who gave three of his limbs in service to our country could be doubted as to his patriotism … I wish that Georgia wakes up and removes him from office via the ballot box. I am ashamed that he allowed on the senate floor to speak. He has never even served in our military… he got a deferment for education and then claimed he had a bad knee 4f I bet.. I wonder if he went to the same school as Bush??
Her is a taste of his character… bastard:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..Jun19.html
Distraction? Absolutely. When the time is so short, its time to hold the mock inquiries that focus entirely on the few strong points of the bill to drown out the gaping flaws. Its like trying to talk a child into following along with a parental suggestion disguised in a dialogue between the parents.
YAY! Durbin is up!
I wonder about the people that go into the CIA. You have to accept alot of crazy shit to join the company.. a world view that the world is out to get us and we need to spy and do dirty ops.
Then you get the Frank McGovern types who seem to be so sensible so who knows what these people are like.
Answer Durbin’s questions you butthead, Bond!
Durbin is sweetly sarcastic, I love it.
good let it sunset
They still want 60 votes to strip immunity.
One way or the other, it’ll take 60 votes. One way is that the GOP objects to vote on the amendment, and getting around that takes cloture (60 votes); or agree to 60 votes on the front end.
Bond is making the same tactical error that got the GOP in a jam earlier. Insisting on the 60 vote front end deal is just making fodder for the anti-immunity side; but following regular order would get to the same end-point.
go Durbin!
Weeeeeeeee! Durbin calls BS on the 60 vote requirement! Put up or shut up time!
Durbin: “I’m new here, I’ve only been here 10 years.” Heh heh.
Durbin and Bond going head to head. I’ll take Durbin.
Kittens as opposed to mittens…hasnt hit the bottle yet today
Bit late to the party, sorry, but aren’t the repugs squirming that lacking the 60 vote bar their hole pile of shit might be exposed?
Am I close?
Yes, Thanks for the link too.
I’m voting for Edwards on Tuesday, come what may. Its the right thing to do for me. There are so many Edwards voters and it is a little jangling of the nerves at this point. But I intend to stand firm on that choice, for many of those reasons. I hope everyone does too….. unless, Edwards himself says different.
funny you should mention that he works for faux news… he hasnt been on in a while….i think he made someone there angry…. jus sayin…….
Cboldt, this is where I think you are ahead of the rest of us. You have been very forthcoming about not believing in much of government and not liking politicians. I hope you are not suggesting that there is no point to our fighting this fight.
Why does “regular order” mean we are going to lose anyway? Because fewer than 50 Senators currently are willing to vote against retroactive immunity? We have identified the 15 Blue Dogs. How many votes do we need out of those 15 to get past the 50-vote threshold? Isn’t it possible that in the next five days we can move at least enough to get past 50?
truth must NOT be told
We would need every D plus Liarman and Sanders. No way will Liarman vote against immunity.
I hope you are not suggesting that there is no point to our fighting this fight.
Not at all. I just think that the outcome is foregone, and what remains to be negotiated between the elite Senators is which of them will vote which way. Like any clique, there’s some alliances, and some backstabbing. And, all of them crave reelection, so they are somewhat susceptible to public pressure.
Why does “regular order” mean we are going to lose anyway?
I was just using that as shorthand for forcing the Senate to use the “objection – cloture” tool, instead of the expedient “60 vote margin on the amendment” agreement on the front end.
In order to strip immunity from the bill, an outcome that I think is proper, correct, and would represent a glimmer of honesty in government, the anti-amnesty faction needs to have 60 votes to pass the Feingold amendment. Otherwise, the phony remedy set up by Rockefeller/Bond will pass the Senate.
The reason it needs 60 votes to pass it, is that if there is NOT an agreement to 60 votes up front, then there will be objection to voting on it. And it takes cloture to get around that objection, and to the simple majority up or down vote.
I’m not sure the Feingold amendment would get 50 votes.
I’m not sure the Feingold amendment would get 50 votes.
Just to make a point from there, this is why I think the GOP made a tactical blunder by insisting on 60 votes. Why bother? Bring the amendment up and beat it on simple majority. That would be an example of an honest process of legislation.
Thank you (Avedon, Jane) for the link to the Jonathan Coulton vids. Awesome stuff.
Re: graduation speaker opening: Perhaps a campaign to urge this school to invite the Nobel Laureate climate scientist /member of the Intl Climate Change group, whose appearance was just canceled in [Wyoming?] after angry calls from parents who thought discussing climate change was ‘too liberal’ ? He’s probably free… stunned at how malleable to FAUX News are some public school kids’ parents in that part of the USA – but free…
There’s a master list. It’s been compiled. Most of us are on it.
At some point millions can be moved and relocated easily.
Our republic was signed into Corporate Statehood by this admin, and the final papers were inked in the SOTU last night. Immunity is in place, regardless of how FISA ever turns out.
And yes, Bill Clinton, in his eight years, helped to move the Presidency into a single most important branch, and BoyKing And Shooter have finished the job. The Presidency is now the ONLY real ruling body.
And IT still answers to The Board Of Directors Of The United Corporate States Of AmeriKa.
It’s all been building for 30 or more years, this unitary presidency concept. While we slept, the nation was sacked.
Time now to cope with it, and deal with it. And survive in it. Period. Game Over.