Posted early by mistake? Zed.

Kohl needs to be contacted too. He’s been tight lipped about this whole deal in all contacts I’ve had with him.

Phone: (202) 224-5653
Fax: (202) 224-9787

new zed!

This reposting thing is like the two-headed hydra!

digg it! Fax for Facts!

Two zeds; one post!

CHS! I am updating a post on my blog from earlier today to link to this one.

Short, sweet and to the point. Music to my ears.

i shall simply fax this

http://www.archives.gov/nation.....oom_1.html

In re: Liddy Dole, if this were a matter of removing make-up from cosmetic counters, she’d be all over it. But wiretapping and Consitutional issues? Not so much.

im heading to Kinkos now

Bayh phone number sounds like a fax. I’ll try the fax number…

i gave wrong …link my eyes very bad this am

http://www.archives.gov/nation.....oom_1.html

this is the Constitution…sorry about that

Oh, and the truly funny part is that while “conservatives” like Nooners whine about how Beloved Leader has “destroyed” the GoOPer Party, they still won’t take a half-step away from him even as he continues to lead them in a fully-developed, out-of-control spin. Too funny.

Bayh phone and fax numbers should be reversed. Thanks.

FISA talking points:

— Immunity for the telecos entails immunity for Bush and his henchmen.

— It’more honorable to fight and lose than capitulate to evil.

— The place to try federal crimes is in federal court, not in Congress where corporate fortunes can buy a verdict

— Per Benjamin Franklin: “Those who would trade essential liberties for a bit of safety deserve neither liberty nor safety and will lose both.”

— Per William Pitt: “Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”

— The claims of great urgency are totally bogus. The current law, which sunsets February 2, allows the Attorney General to authorize programs for up to a year. Thus, he can now authorize the current surveillance programs to continue for the duration of the Bush administration. Don’t let the bastards stampede Congress like they have so often in the past.

— Per Glenn Greenwald:

“Rockefeller’s claim that telecoms can’t submit exculpatory evidence to the court is flat-out false, an absolute lie. There is no other accurate way to describe his statement.

“Under FISA (50 USC 1806(f)), telecoms are explicitly permitted to present any evidence in support of their defenses in secret (in camera, ex parte) to the judge and let the judge decide the case based on it. That section of long-standing law could not be clearer, and leaves no doubt that Rockefeller is simply lying when he says that telecoms are unable to submit secret evidence to the court to defend themselves:

[W]henever any motion or request is made by an aggrieved person pursuant to any other statute or rule of the United States or any State before any court or other authority of the United States or any State to discover or obtain applications or orders or other materials relating to electronic surveillance or to discover, obtain, or suppress evidence or information obtained or derived from electronic surveillance under this chapter, the United States district court or, where the motion is made before another authority, the United States district court in the same district as the authority, shall, notwithstanding any other law, if the Attorney General files an affidavit under oath that disclosure or an adversary hearing would harm the national security of the United States, review in camera and ex parte the application, order, and such other materials relating to the surveillance as may be necessary to determine whether the surveillance of the aggrieved person was lawfully authorized and conducted.

“How much clearer could that be? Directly contrary to Rockefeller’s claims, federal courts are not only able, but required (”shall”), to review in secret any classified information — including evidence over which a “states secrets privilege” has been asserted — in order “to determine whether the surveillance of the aggrieved person was lawfully authorized and conducted.” Federal courts already have exactly the power that Rockefeller dishonestly claims they lack.”

Thank you for putting all this together.

Carper phone and fax numbers are reversed. Obama is correct, but the voice box is full.

before i head out into the cold ,i just want to post this,about the hyporicy,of the pukes,…they want to WIRE TAP your phones,but when they get specific,and irrefutable evidence,they DONT listen or CARE

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/....._0126.html

(psst…that weird WordPress thingy is coming up again, like last night.)
Just in case you were aware.)

FDL is there and then it is gone to the WordPress login…. like a blinking light

Hello.

CNN reporting that TED KENNEDY will endorse Obama.

It took me a long time to get back in and to get the comments.

(psst…that weird WordPress thingy is coming up again, like last night.)
Just in case you weren’t aware.)

– Retroactive immunity on FISA is designed to immunize the Bush/Cheney Administration. Once immunity is given, it cannot be taken back.

that’s a good point

along those lines I believe this one is powerfull as well;

If they’ve aquired information

WOW!! That’s a big one.

sorry it posted twice…it was the flukey thingy.

OT/EPU’s

Typhoid Liz to endorse Team Romney.

I’d rather get the O. J. Simpson seal of approval.

-G

Yes indeed, it IS better to fight than give in to evil. But remember, the illegal eavesdropping very likely goes beyond data mining for suspected terrorists, it could also include the political opposition. How better to neutralize one’s enemies? How else to explain the gutless Democratic Congress, cowed by a lame duck President with 30% approval ratings?

It’s the blackmail, stupid!

Think of the famous cave-ins by Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, Diane Feinstein, and the list goes on. What are they really afraid of?

Yes, I’ll be faxing too, today. But realize just how compromised these people could be.

Once immunity is given, it cannot be taken back.

Why not?

oops, submit was hit by the palm of my hand

anyway;

“immunity will give permission for all parties to use our intellectual property for their own profit, if they managed to see a diagram or a manuscript this immunity makes it impossible for us to reclaim our property”

or something along those lines…stealing their property is something the Republicans understand and a fax like that should go to the republicans that are worried about re election

So, can anyone explain to me, in simple terms, what this Kennedy-Obama circle is about?
Maybe my head cold is making me (more) dense.

I believe john’s daughter already endorsed him last night

we are supposed to have habeas corpus protection, a law can’t be established after the fact, once the telecoms are given immunity it would be a violation of habeas protection to take it away

Another talking point:

The current FISA (Intel version) provisions for telecom immunity, basket warrants and lack of minimization procedures are a stepping stone to further, more intrusive warrantless spying on Americans. See the New Yorker article and the following RawStory link:

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/....._0114.html

As McConnell says in the New Yorker article:

Debate on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act “will be a walk in the park compared to this”

To Senators: Kill immunity and basket warrants NOW and require more minimization NOW or you will open the door to more intrusive spying on Americans later.

Right. Recinding immunity would not undisclose our intellectual property. But we recinding immunity allow us to send them to jail for stealing it in the first place?

So far in early voting, Republicans have outnumbered Democrats 427,018 to 371,642. At that pace, Democrats are expected to more than triple the number of early voters from 2004, despite the fact that because of sanctions by their party, Democratic candidates have essentially boycotted Florida, coming here only to raise money at private functions.

They outnumber us (so far; we could narrow that) by what? (My math sucks. Help me out here.) About 55,000 out of about 800,000 and we don’t even have a primary to speak of? Republicans, I’m not impressed.

Caroline Kennedy’s op ed piece in the NYT is Very powerful - my sweetie was crying while reading it to our teenager.

That’s Florida stuff.

minutia would never see the light of day, any and all cases would be dismissed, they might even be sanctioned for filing suits that can’t stand in court

(minutia, a great word, no?)

Do you have a link?
It might answer my earlier question.
Thanks in advance.

Don’t forget that you can send a Fax directly from your computer, if you can hook it up to a phone line.

Instructions for Windows XP:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/306657

There are also web based services out there that will send a fax for you, but I’m not that familiar with them.

Bill Nelson endorsed HRC for whatever it’s worth. Again, I’m not impressed. It’s not like he can turn people out for her. Who cares? We don’t have any delegates. (Actually Nelson will endose HRC probably tomorrow. The HRC campaign leaked it.)

Speaking of Senator Spaceman, I thought he was a FISA good guy back in December but he voted to table the judiciary committtee bill the other day. Gotta work on him.

Yesterday, Gov. Crist, like Sen. Martinez endorsed McCain. Good-bye Rudy. Good-bye Rudy. Good-bye, Rudy; we hate to see you go.

great word.

True. I fax from my desktop Mac, but my laptop has no modem. It’s great, you just write something in a TextEdit document and fax using the print function’s fax options.

I’ll join the faxblast, happily. :)

Yesterday, Gov. Crist, like Sen. Martinez endorsed McCain. Good-bye Rudy. Good-bye Rudy. Good-bye, Rudy; we hate to see you go.

I actually do hate to see him go, an adulterating drag queen who killed firemen by taking bribes would have been the most beatable among the candidates

Anti-Obama smear mail prompts Hatch Act violation investigation.

-G

For anyone else who wants to read it, here’s the link to the NYT op-ed by Caroline Kennedy:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01.....ref=slogin

Yea. I do too. For the reasons you cite, plus I wanted to see yet another person win a primary/caucus and make their race even more convoluted.

Does Credo cost $$$ ?

I don’t think endorsements by politicians carry much weight; however, there are people, who transcend politics, that can move votes by endorsing a candidate. There have been four contested caucuses and primaries. Obama has won two. Please remind me in which states Oprah held rallies.
Well, I am kidding, sort of.

Locking the barn door after the horses are out, but I suppose better than no action at all.

Word Press message again.

I have been getting the Word Press messages, also.

Claire McCaskill (Dem senator from Missouri) is leaning toward the Specter amendment (substitute the federal government for the telcos as defendant in the lawsuits).

We need to impress upon her that that is not a viable option. She needs to listen to her constituents and do whatever she can to strip telco immunity out of the FISA bill. She also needs to listen to non-constituents as well, since she is co-chair of the Obama campaign.

We need to let her know that it’s not too late to come down on the right side of this issue.

I agree with you except that these people sometimes (usually(?)) have a ntwrok of people in place to help out the candidate they endorse. But Martinez is kinda reviled by their people because he pushed what they call “shamnesty.” And Crist isn’t at all conservative enough for them.

P.S. That World Press thing is fuckin’ me up.

Claire McCaskill (Dem senator from Missouri) is leaning toward the Specter amendment (substitute the federal government for the telcos as defendant in the lawsuits).

I get so tired of these meaningless, cosmetic “compromises” that politicians love for their CYA value. So many of them are of the type “We’ll still jump over the cliff but we will only fall half way.”

The Specter amendment sounds, to me, like a grover norquist dream come true.

Jim Dean and Democracy for America have come with an ad.

I’m gone. Word Press has annoyed the shit outta me.

I’m gone. This is bullshit. Word Press has annoyed the shit outta me. Can’t deal anymore.

Emphasis.

“Germaine” is important feminist Greer’s given name.

You want “germane”.

yes, I’m a pedant.

We need to impress upon her that that is not a viable option.

No way. The Congress and the courts have been really, really effective at holding the executive accountable for wrongdoing. It’s a totally viable option.

It’s total crap. The instant that the telecoms are given a free pass and the “responsibility” is passed en toto to the government, the Bushies will say the “magic words”: National Security!

And the court cases will die the way Specter wants them to die, the way Reid wants them to die, the way Schumer wants them to die, etc.

So not a norquist dream come true?

Sorry about the hiccups, gang — we did an upgrade last night, and it isn’t playing nice with Wordpress for some reason. We’re working on it, and hopefully have it resolved…thanks much for your patience!

For what it’s worth, I just refresh my page and the hiccup goes away.
Really not that difficult.
But, if it’s really That Annoying, there’s always the FISA faxing to keep y’all occupied.
Or, that ever elusive Nap.
:)

Thanks for the talking points and phone numbers Christy. I must admit, after watching CSpan all day Friday, and reading everyone’s explanations of what actuallly happened, I’m still confused by all the maneuvering.

The good news (or not depending on perspective) that half the staffers I get on the phone know less than I do about piece of legislation. Sometimes the lack of knowledge is slightly astounding. I guess I don’t care, as long as they take down what my comments are and pass them along.

No problem! Just good to be here :)

I lost patience and had a hissy. Never did leave though.

Bill Nelson voted for cloture on Alito and has consistently Blue dog/bush dogged most of his votes. He’s a real finger in the wind type of pol. I will fax this blue dog right now. Incidentally, Nelson said (with great authority and confidence) on NPR that Florida will seat its delegates when the time comes.

Believe me, you were not the only one to lose patience…I just didn’t do it in a comment. *g*

re: hissy, I bet you’re the kind of guy that may loose it over the little things, but when a real crisis happens, you’re a boulder.
Am I right?
*g*

[H]alf the staffers I get on the phone know less than I do about piece of legislation.

I’m not real clear on exactly how Senators’ offices are staffed, but it wouldn’t suprise me if the vast majority of what the people who you can get on the phone deal with has nothing to do with legislation, and everything to do with filtering through the people who get real access to the Senator–big donors, CEOs, and those types–and dealing directly with ordinary constituent requests–help with the federal government, etc.

Faxed Cardin and Mikulski using FreeFAX (faxzero did not work for me). Mikulski is a hard-case on this issue and I think we’d have better luck promoting Thugs than her, but I tried anyway. The WordPress issue appears to be resolved now.

Yeah. He’s right. But the “time comes” when somebody finally wins the nomination. Then they’ll seat tem (and Michigan). Doesn’t give me a meaningful election on Tuesday.

Half right.

PS, threads are like buses and men (or whatever your preference). There’ll be another one in a few…

the root of the problem is that the US government is government of the corporations, by the corporations, and for the corporations. And there are plenty of democrats, even most democrats that have bought into that. The average citizen is nearly meaningless to most politicians.

In terms of fundamental structural changes needed to take back America, in addition to breaking up Big Media, corporate activity in politics has to be eliminated.
.

It’s okay. Still love ya.

The telecom immunity debate is completely absent on the teevee. I haven’t heard a single mention about it in the 437 (?) primary presidential debates. One can easily draw the conclusion corporate media avoids the issue like the plague merely due to the immense advertising budgets the telecoms wield.

There is absolutely nothing free about the press.

Consider Mike Wallace and tobacco. Certainly corporate media can roll their Village eyeballs at such claims, but the precedent has been set, and they refuse to cover an unprecedented gift our congress is preparing to give to the telecommunication companies that violated the law repeatedly and for years. If immunity is granted, and no harm can come, watch for the chattering classes to feign righteous indignation forcing the telecoms to boost ad buys to repair their image. Funny how that works.

Meanwhile, the exposing and fight against these corporate giants are led by a handful of bloggers like Christy, Glenn, and Marcy to ant-lobby, which means stand for America as opposed to special interests. Thanks for what you do, which serves as the central reasoning why the internet is such a vital tool.

You’re makin’ me blush.

Oh, hiccups are also opportunities to get up and get something done.
So far, I’ve already made a potatoe and broccoli casserole, pecan coffee cake is in the oven and there is a loaf of bread rising.
It’s the truth but I’m kinda gently teasing those who are cranky over small problems.

Wow, I just recovered from one heckva of system crash, and I see there are tech problems here too. Nice to know I’m not alone. :)

Now, hopefully the efax service will cooperate.

The wordpress thing isn’t resolved yet by the by.

Faxed Cardin and Mikulski using FreeFAX (faxzero did not work for me).

Exactly backwards: FaxZero.com worked, FreeFAX did not. Sorry.

I can’t belive the Democratic Party has allowed this Michigan and Florida debacle to occur.
If for no other reason than campaigning in a particular state’s primary is the best way to prepare for winning that state’s electoral votes in November. There is no better way to learn the lay of the land and the folks that populate it.

Wow, really? I hadn’t noticed… *g*

One part of this that I find particularly disturbing is Senator Sheldon Whitehouse’s insistence that, to paraphrase, “telecom companies that acted in good-faith and heeded the governments requests for compliance are now prevented from defending themselves because of the states secrets requirements, and should thus be entitled to relief.”
To my knowledge, he has not alleged that the initial actions, the illegal spying, were in any way legal.

Back when FISA was first enacted (and I’m certain well before that), all the telecoms had to be staffed with hundreds if not thousands of attorneys, some of whose jobs surely were to evaluate the validity of warrants. To presuppose that these attorneys weren’t consulted when ChimpCo acted to compel is ludicrous, and to give any of these companies a break on the grounds of the states secrets challenge again presupposes “good faith” on the part of the companies. There is simply no possible claim of “good faith” arising from the companies initial actions.

Senator Whitehouse must know better. There is something else going on. I hope.
Christy - how far off-base am I?

IIRC, you know your bible.
Love is Patient and Kind.
Can’t have too much of that, ever.

Please hit Bayh’s office hard: He’s changed votes before when pressured.

(202) 224-5623
(202) 228-1377 fax

I still think Lugar’s a possible cross-over (staff was very receptive, anyway). Staffer seemed taken aback at the idea that immunity was about to be granted without ever having determined what activities the telecoms had committed.

202-224-4814
202-228-0360 fax

Again, thanks Christy -

I have my work cut out for me Monday morning. I just put it together so I can get through my list and move on.

Interesting turn of events with Kennedys supporting Obama. I admit he is a powerful speaker. I still have my concerns.

I think the telecom companies were given assurances from the WH counsel (then Gonzales), Addington and others that this was a necessary course of action and legal under Art. II — and they ran with them. And Whitehouse is having qualms about holding them responsible for what was really a scheme at the highest levels of the executive branch to subvert the law.

I get where he is coming from with that — but he’s wrong to assume that Specter or anyone else in the GOP is operating on good faith on this to get to the bottom of the problem. For them, its about CYA for Cheney and co. — because that is what is best for the GOP. Thus, immunity for the corporations is immunity for Cheney’s minions. And I’m not prepared to dole it out — they can pull Cheney et al in as third party defendants for all I care, but no one gets off the hook until we see what they have been doing.

Just sayin. Someone else indicated they thought it was “resolved”. Then BLAM, worpress hit me in the chops again.

I have been saying the same thing… there should be NO… No corporate influence on OUR government. why should there be? they can’t vote! thats why we need public funding for all campaigns.. Just think of how the political landscape would change….all the big money gone… K-street would disappear and we would get our government back so the Government could address those societal problems of our nation such as health care… poverty… education for all our kids from pre-k through fours of college… Now that would be an investment that would pay off in dividends beyond belief!!

My thoughts, too.

I keep asking myself–what are they afraid of? What and Who are holding something over their heads?

You know, if it’s affairs? I.don’t.care.

Teleco’s can defend themselves. Federal courts have closed sessions all the time. As an admirer of Sheldon’s, I have no idea why he would declare the teleco’s defenseless.

Think I qualified that with “hopefully,” but we’re still working on it in any case.

Yes, and the telecoms also had scads of paid legal counsel on retainer and in-house who were experts in just this sort of thing. Some of whom for some companies read the law and said “Where is your lawful warrant, as required by law?” So I have very little sympathy for the jump when Cheney says jump argument, either.

One can be very patient and kind and loving without biblical consultation. In fact, one might be prone to do some awful things by acting on biblical tenets. Deuteronomy 13-5 thru 10 provide evidence.

What is keeping the telecoms from continuing to spy on us? This is prolly not new. Maybe the telecoms are the real power in this country. They know everything about everybody. How do we disconnect? We need telecom police.

I wish it would stop raining.

The telecoms are obviously scared. You don’t think this WordPress problem is an accident do you :-) ?

Telco’s found it easier to go along to get along. They were afraid of the administration and the punishment they might have suffered by lack of cooperation. Quest is a company that did not play ball. Are they still in business?

Is the law so “fuzzy” in the area of privacy, which, is after all such a minor issue, (/snark) we must continue to be bombarded with phrases like “acted in good faith” “good corporate citizens” and, according to CHS, “Bertie Walnut’s said we could?”

Is that a defense? I am an idiot who broke a law I did not understand because some crooks said I could. By the way, as an environmentalist, I have been replacing divots for twelve years. I’m swell.

Can’t argue with that.
I wasn’t trying to proselitize.
I apologize if my comment was offensive to you or others.

Right, CHS, we must always remember QWEST, the guy who didn’t play ball and is now looking at prison time. This is just so wrong.

And of course, there’s the 800 pound gorilla in the room known as Qwest, who apparently has lawyers that paid attention in certain classes and refused to go along without having actual warrants in hand.

Ron Paul believes in “The Rule of Law”

I disagree. I think the telcos need to get spanked on this one so that they won’t do it again. Also, I think that substituting the government as the defendant makes it more likely that certain information will not see the light of day. Plus, taxpayers foot the bill for any damages.

I agree that courts have been about the only ones holding the Admin responsible for their misdeeds, but I think the Specter amendment is a false compromise.

So long as it’s not Lorita Doan violating the hatch act it’s a serious offense.

We have nothing to fear but the Clintons themselves.

This is an election about who we are, who we want to be. If America does not regain its can-do, we’re in it together, no man is an island spirit in its greatest traditions, it will soon fade into a shadow of its former self. Here is an analysis of the latest on the Clintons versus Obama. http://www.dailykos.com/storyo.....221/444226

Heh, great minds and all. I called my wingnut Senator Tom Coburn (groan) and told the staffer Government should not interfere by granting amnesty to telecoms. The staffer was very non-committal saying Dr. Coburn was “studying the issue.

He may be Gadfly enough to throw a wrench in the works. He is after all known as “Dr. No.”

hey, marcy hit’s this out of the park over at emptywheel;

“The president would veto a 30-day extension,” a senior administration official said. “They’re just kicking the can down the road. They need the heat of the current law lapsing to get this done.”

To which Reid appropriately pinned any blame on Bush.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) called the veto threat “shamefully irresponsible” and “simply posturing in advance of Monday’s State of the Union address.”

“There will be no terrorism intelligence collection gap,” Reid said. “But if there is any problem, the blame will clearly and unequivocally fall where it belongs: on President Bush and his allies in Congress.”

Reid’s response is useful. But he needs to say one more thing. If Bush vetos a 30-day extension, he will be doing so for one reason and one reason only: because the existing legislationg, PAA, doesn’t offer immunity to telecoms–and with it, to Dick Cheney and everyone else in this Administration who pushed the telecoms to continue their spying even after the acting AG, Jim Comey, refused to certify the program for a period in 2004.

Ron Paul believes in “The Rule of Law”

he believes in the rule of law to protect corporartions, he does not believe their should be law that hinder corporations

he believes government is there to protect industry not to protect the people

They were afraid of the administration and the punishment they might have suffered by lack of cooperation.

There was also the carrot of the massive government contracts that paid for the telecoms to implement all this shit.

there is also the prospect of gathering information for themselves they wouldn’t otherwise be able to gather

they could find what laws will be passed, what regulations would be rescinded, what laws would not be passed

they would be able to play the market accordingly

this is more then spying on you and me, it’s stealing

Thanks for all this info! Am sick with flu and need to do something useful with any energy I can muster. Salazar’s my senator. He’s hard to budge, but if you can sell something as a means of compromise you’ll get his ear. I always remind him we walked precincts under the hot summer sun for him. (bec the other candidate was far worse).

Hunter has a post up over at kos on each repug candidate as a stage of grief a la kubler-ross — made me chuckle.

I’ll match your wing-nut Senator Coburn and raise you Senator Box-turtle and Senator Perpetual Cheerleader (Cornyn and Hutchison).

the reason I keep bringing up the loss of property debate is that this is all the republicans understand

they don’t understand “they violated the constitution”,they don’t understand what that means, and they surely don’t understand why the consitution protects us with the power of law in the first place

they believe if it gives security it’s worth the price since as far as they’re concerned there is no price

we need to point out that there is a price, it’s not some obscure philosophy, we will pay out of our pockets if we do not have constitutional protections enforced

Oh, telecoms have been and will continue to spy on us at a level that could only have been dreamed of by the Stasi of the former E. Germany. They are all in deep with domestic spying for “commercial” reasons. I recommend No Place to Hide by Robert O Harrow for a nice, detailed treatment of the extent of domestic spying by commercial interests for commercial reasons AND as proxies for the federal government.

I’ll match your wing-nut Senator Coburn and raise you Senator Box-turtle and Senator Perpetual Cheerleader (Cornyn and Hutchison).

Hopefully, in 2008, our full flush of GOP US legislators will be beat by a pair of honest progressive Democrats!

the reason I keep bringing up the property angle is that this is all the republicans understand

they don’t understand “violates the constitution”,they don’t understand what that means and why the consitution protects us in the first place

they believe if it gives security it’s worth the price since as far as they’re concerned there is no price

we need to point out that there is a price, it’s not some obscure philosophy, we will pay out of our pockets if we do not have constitutional protections enforced

I’ll match your Repug nuts and raise you “I always wanted to destroy Habeus Corpus” Jon KYL and “I want 10,000 years in Iraq” McCain

I don’t see Hagel on the list. Is there a reason for that?

Just faxed Senator Byrd and requested him to vote NO to cloture, as well as to speak to Senator Rockefeller and find out why he has turned his back on his country. Also faxed Rockefeller to say that I, among many of his constituents, am appalled at his position concerning FISA and feel he has “Sold Out” to Bush and the Telecoms. Requested that he do the right thing and vote NO to McConnell’s cloture.

The illegal spying began BEFORE 9/11 and failed (obviously) to stop 9/11. The spying was NOT for security, it was for criminal purposes. Of course, even if it was for security reasons, it would STILL be criminal because it violates FISA, federal law, and the 4th and 5th Amendments.

word press is killing me today, sorry about the double posts

Yep…. took me three times to post a single comment at #124 and then kept getting the “lost database connection” popup message

I’m glad you showed up. I like your angle on this. Your analysis is interesting and sheds new light. Not just on this topic, but many others as well. : )

I wonder if the site is under some kind of attack, this has to be one of the most influential blogs n the tubes

fascism

many thanx hackworth

I do have to leave now though but will return later

c u then

See Christy up thread @ #67.

Not everything is a conspiracy or an attack on FDL and the DFHs.

Sorry to be out for so long. I had a terrible time getting in. Is FDL being attacked by cybercritters? Other sites would come us instead of FDL. Huh? Another time I wasn’t recognized. Strange things happening.

thanx dankine, now I know

off to work, see all alter

Yes. Right on the money.

I had a terrible time for about an hour and a half. I was getting either a prompt to load a new word press or I was getting a message that I already had wordpress, and then 404 errors.

One site I got redirected to was

http://www.firedoglake.com/wp-admin/install.php

I don’t know enough about servers and DNS attacks, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Rethugs went after this site. It would be consistent with what is par for their course.

To Republicans, like the ones trying to ram through a bad FISA update version, we’re a country of free speech, as long as it’s speech they’re comfortable with.

you know, someone should do some research on how these telecoms are doing in their investments

it will be very interesting if their investments coincide with events that occurred soon after

for instance, did they get out of the subrime investment funds before the crap hit the fan?

for instance, are they invested in haliburton?

for instance, did they short the dollar right when cheney did?

be a good project and timeline

I think the telecom companies were given assurances from the WH counsel (then Gonzales), Addington and others that this was a necessary course of action and legal under Art. II — and they ran with them.

I think it is important to emphasize it was not the telecoms but the individuals who ran them who decided to work with the Administration on spying and that they did so possibly before 9/11 when an Article II argument would have sounded pretty lame and that even if they aided the government only after 9/11 they did so for more than 6 years. So what were the motives of these individuals? Certainly, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, the patriotism argument and the emergency nature of the situation could be used in their defense. Spying before 9/11 in conjunction with the telecoms and for the years after it can not be justified in this way. Companies are not inherently patriotic. Their CEOs may be but their primary allegiance is to their jobs and their bottomlines.

The CEOs of the telecoms and their lawyers knew too how such requests should be handled in non-emergency situations and I have to wonder why they made no attempt to regularize and legitimize their efforts. What I come up with is not a reference to Article II powers but a more informal understanding that the telecoms would be taken care of. This means not only being paid well for these specific spying programs but a promotion of their corporate agendas across the board.

See the last item on my list at #15 above. Whitehouse is wrong and the cited quote from Glenn Greenwald provides chapter and verse.

everyone’s upstairs, come on and join

Thank you for that.
What I was thinking, but I have to be very careful what I say here.
Prolly better coming from You. :) - hugs to you today, from me.

The illegal spying began BEFORE 9/11 and failed (obviously) to stop 9/11. The spying was NOT for security, it was for criminal purposes. Of course, even if it was for security reasons, it would STILL be criminal because it violates FISA, federal law, and the 4th and 5th Amendments.

I hate to be so banal, but much of this outrageous lawbreaking comes down to a greed for pure power.

Be sure to follow some of EW’s current threads on the timing of this FISA push which is all about covering Cheney/Addington’s ass, rather than any genuine concern by any Republicans for this country’s “security.”

Threads like this one at EW and perfectly consistent with Christy’s comment@94:a>

Bush Would Forgo New FISA Programs to Make Sure Dick Gets Immunity

And then, you probably begin to get into the literature in the psychiatric journals.

If only the posts from Christy, Jane, and Marcy could make it into the mainstream media.

This morning I did an informal poll at the small grocery in my neighborhood where people stream in to buy the Sunday NYT.

Most of them knew something was up with FISA vaguely, but had no idea of the wiretapping implications, let alone the several components that needed to be addressed in a FISA revision bill, or the relationship of Bush and Cheney and their counsel with Telco/Comcos.

:})

Exactly. And, if the telcos have exculpatory evidence that is covered by state-secrets laws, they can present it to the judge “in camera, ex parte” under FISA (50 USC 1806(f)):

[W]henever any motion or request is made by an aggrieved person pursuant to any other statute or rule of the United States or any State before any court or other authority of the United States or any State to discover or obtain applications or orders or other materials relating to electronic surveillance or to discover, obtain, or suppress evidence or information obtained or derived from electronic surveillance under this chapter, the United States district court or, where the motion is made before another authority, the United States district court in the same district as the authority, shall, notwithstanding any other law, if the Attorney General files an affidavit under oath that disclosure or an adversary hearing would harm the national security of the United States, review in camera and ex parte the application, order, and such other materials relating to the surveillance as may be necessary to determine whether the surveillance of the aggrieved person was lawfully authorized and conducted.

The CEOs of the telecoms and their lawyers knew too how such requests should be handled in non-emergency situations and I have to wonder why they made no attempt to regularize and legitimize their efforts. What I come up with is not a reference to Article II powers but a more informal understanding that the telecoms would be taken care of. This means not only being paid well for these specific spying programs but a promotion of their corporate agendas across the board.

Yep, and of course these Telcom/Comcoms (ISP providers) have general counsel types who have spent 20 or more years immersed in the caselaw and litigation of just the types of situations you’re mentioning. They knew absolutely what they were doing was illegal, before and after 911, and remember the roster of lobbying law firms these big Telcoms employ. They are lists of some of the largest multi-city “blue stocking” armies of litigators in the country. Every one of them has a small army of lawyers in their Telcom/Communications division that has been knee-deep in this legislation and litigation for years.

They knew exactly what they were doing. What I want to know was besides the obvious lucrative contracts for setting up the wiretapping hardware and software, what else did Cheney, Addington, NSA, DOJ and many other alphabet agencies’ counsel give these companies as quid pro quo for violating so many code sections.

Telco’s found it easier to go along to get along. They were afraid of the administration and the punishment they might have suffered by lack of cooperation. Quest is a company that did not play ball. Are they still in business?

This reminds me of Putin and the serial jailing of oil oligarch’s that challenged him during the last couple years.

Wigwam you are a heroine no doubt in the classic sense. Exceptions to legal trditions and precedents on like cases based on the same law are somewhat rare. The rules of exculpatory evidence stand on their own.
To change this is like unleaching large amounts of nuclear energy… 200 to 300 years of legal precedent overturned by political influence is abandoning the rule of law

Robin Hood of Sherwood Forrest, was a wonderful series of how thw crooked police state screwed over the peeps. Quite often Maid Marion along with the ‘good ” friar Tuck would jump the sheriff and give them a sound thumping. Usually the sheriff had encarcerated some poor soul.

Then there is thr French Revolution…”Bastille Day” for which demonstration I landed in the Alameda County jail for 30 days of solitary confinement I was latter rearrested for 30 more days.

“But mass demonstrations continued. In one mass arrest, 482, including innocent bystanders and journalists from the establishment press, were arrested. Prisoners from that arrest reported extensive beatings at Santa Rita jail.
At a rally on Sproul plaza, troops surrounded the gathering, admitting people but preventing them from leaving. Then the troops put on gas masks and a helicopter flew over spraying CS tear gas, a gas outlawed for wartime use by the Geneva Convention. They mistakenly teargassed Cowell hospital as well as several local public schools.”
Street sweeps occurred in North Beach and a black arresttee was beaten in my presense.
These people are the criminals. The National Lawyers Guild approved a resolution last year to impeach Bush/Cheney. We have to put this bad genie back in the bottle.

Are you talking Bastille Day ‘69?

I’m reading “The Audacity of Hope”. I’ll be shocked of Obama filibusters, but I faxed anyway, to Clinton too. Worth a try - anyone know if there will be a way to get signs displayed at his love-in with Kennedy tomorrow? I’ll pitch in for that.