(Please welcome Sarah Posner, author of God’s Profits: Faith, Fraud, and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters in the comments. As always, out of respect for our guest, please take comments on other subject back to the prior thread. Thanks! — jh)
This book was hard for me to read.
In God’s Profits, journalist Sarah Posner explores one of the less-well known branches of the conservative Christian movement in the US. If you’ve ever channel-surfed on a Sunday morning, you likely have seen the faces of the people this book explores. There’s Joel Osteen, the CEO-ish looking preacher of the "prosperity gospel," whom Posner describes as having a "cotton-candy, feel-good, self-help style of preaching;" Word of Faith movement leaders like Rod Parsley, Kenneth Copeland, Paul Crouch, and others who preach a message that says in essence "no one would want to be a Christian if Christians were poor, so it must be God’s will that Christians be rich;" and John Hagee and his "Christians United for Israel" [CUFI] crowd, who view supporting Israel as the way to bring about the second coming of Jesus. Throughout the preaching of these folks and others like them, there is the sense that if you just believe hard enough — and give generously enough — anything you wish for will come to you. Wealth, healing, victory over IslamoFascism . . . anything. And of course, if it doesn’t come to you . . . well, you must not have enough faith. You need to believe harder, give even more . . .
As I said, this was a hard book for me to read.
I kept wanting to argue, not with Posner, but with the preachers she describes. As a pastor myself who follows the Christian right, some of this was familiar, some was brand new, and almost all of it was disturbing. "Have you ever really read the Bible?" I wanted to ask them. As Posner notes [pp. 43-44],
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus taught that God knows what you need before you ask for it. But the prosperity preachers, [critic Dan] McConnell charges, have distorted the word need to mean something beyond "necessity" and have failed to make "any distinction between a need and a want, and a want and a lust" for items such as new houses, fancy cars, and fine clothing. The fixation on wealth, McConnell argues, is "a carnal accomodation to the crass materialism of American culture." It serves not only to "rationalize the disparity between rich and poor. It actually degrades the poor, claiming that their poverty is a result of ‘dishonoring’ God."
Oh, I could go down that road for a long time taking on the preachers Posner describes. Where, in these ministries, is any of Jesus’ concern for the poor, the hungry, those in need, the outcasts, the strangers, the foreigners?
But I digress. That’s not why we’re here.
We’re here at the FDL Book Salon to talk with Sarah Posner, because of the other cast of characters that come in and out of the story she tells . . .
Perhaps the most intriguing aspect of God’s Profits to me were the links between this segment of the Christian Right and the mainstream of the GOP. At times, the links are philosphical/theological: both focus on self-reliance, distrust of government, and extreme individualism. If someone is poor, the GOP views them as lazy while the Word of Faith crowd views them as faithless — but both think that the poor are only poor by choice: "if the poor would just work/believe harder, then they wouldn’t be poor." Both operate in a world of dualistic black-and-white choices: good or evil, with us or against us, secular and holy, etc. Both use the language of warfare to justify and promote their beliefs. Both operate with a hierarchical, Yertle-the-Turtle view of the world, in which those at the top are due unquestioning loyalty from those below. Leaders may be accountable to other leaders, but not to their followers and never to outsiders.
At other times, however, the links between the GOP and this branch of TheoCon preachers are quite specific and direct. The preachers try to bolster their prestige, their ministries, and their egos by flaunting their connections with and clout among political leaders in the GOP — and the GOP leaders try to tap the money and the voters that these preachers can bring to their political campaigns. For instance, says Posner [pp. 110-111]:
[In 2007] Republican officials and candidates are seeking Hagee’s ear. John McCain met Hagee for a private têtê-à-têtê in San Antonio, emerging with a virtual endorsement of his presidential candidacy and a $1000 contribution to his campaign. . . . Presidential hopefulls Sam Brownback and Duncan Hunter spoke at Nights to Honor Israel [a series of Hagee sponsored events] in South Carolina and Virginia. When Hagee was in Washington to deliver a well-received speech at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee conference in March 2007, he met with House Republican Whip Roy Blunt and other members of the House Republican leadership. Gingrich also collaborated with Hagee, delivering the keynote address at CUFI’s 2007 Washington summit.
It’s a Sunday, in the midst of a contentious presidential primary season. Sounds like a good time to talk politics and religion, especially of the Word of Faith variety. Please help me welcome author Sarah Posner to the FDL Book Salon, for what promises to be an enlightening discussion of God’s Profits: Faith, Fraud, and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters.



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Sarah welcome to the Lake.
Welcome, Ms. Posner.
Hello and thanks Peterr.
Welcome, Sarah!
Thanks, Peterr, for that insightful introduction, and to everyone at FDL for hosting this discussion. I’m really looking forward to it.
Welcome to the Lake, Sarah Posner: Now that Huckabee seems to be out of the running for the presidency, what in your opinion will be the role of related preachers in the General Election?
While Huckabee, of all the GOP candidates, is tightest with the prosperity crowd (for example, he’s close with Kenneth Copeland, who appears frequently in God’s Profits and currently is one of the televangelists under investigation by Sen. Grassley), don’t doubt the need of the eventual GOP nominee to reach out to these figures. They have huge audiences and the GOP has long mined them for votes. As Peterr noted in his introduction, McCain has already cozied up with John Hagee, and last spring made an appearance on the Crouch’s Trinity Broadcasting Network — not even George W. Bush did that!
You’re quite welcome. After all the work you obviously put into writing the book, this intro is the least I can do.
Of the various folks you talk about in the book, how many of the preachers did you get to interview?
Welcome to the Lake Sarah,
thanks Bev and Peterr
Not one. They are extremely secretive and shun media attention unless they’re confident it’s going to be favorable. Remember also that they view media criticism (and in some cases, the media itself) as inspired by Satan.
The opening quote in the book is from Pslam 105:15: “touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.” They use this biblical verse to dispel their critics, and to warn their followers against questioning them.
To whom? Mammon? Aloha, Peterr and Sarah!
One item I did not put in the intro, though perhaps I should have, is that in the book you note that your own background is Jewish — which made the chapter on Hagee more than a little interesting.
That’s what I figured.
I have to say, though, that by going to their services/events and speaking with other participants there, you gave a good feel for how these folks present themselves, and how their flocks respond.
Welcome, Sarah! Hi, Peterr!
This is a fascinating topic, and one I have wondered about a lot. Here are a few questions:
(1) Do you think the preachers you talked to actually believe what they are telling their parishioners?
(2) How do the parishioners reconcile what they are being told–that praying will lead to real-world results like financial gain–with the patent reality that must smack them in the face very day–they’re not winning the lottery no matter how hard they pray?
Hi Sarah and Peterr – thanks for this discussion. I will be getting your book as soon as I can. This is something I’ve been very concerned about for a long time. The so-called ‘prosperity theology’ which says that if you are in God’s favor, you will be rewarded with earthly prosperity goes against, to my mind at least, everything that Jesus taught (and I am a liberal Christian.) I can see how neatly it dovetails with the Republican mantra of poverty=immorality. What’s so disturbing to me is that when the two groups (Christian Right and Big Business Republicans) got together in the late 70s with the Moral Majority, what happened was that the Business Right no longer needed to be bipartisan or dilute their own priorities in Congress – they could afford to shut out the Democrats becuse of that loyal Christian voter bloc.
At some point the differences in priorities between the two groups (abortion, gay marriage and legislating morality vs. unfettered business freedom) are going to have to clash when the Christian right doesn’t get what they want from Congress.
Does it look to you like the fissures in this unholy alliance are beginning to crack yet, or is it more solid than ever?
To the televangelist/preacher. The prosperity televangelists come out of a merger of the Word of Faith movement and Oral Roberts’ seed-faith theology. The Word of Faith movement major principles: revelation knowledge (rely on what God tells you, or signs from God, rather than on what you observe with your senses); positive confession (you can call things into existence for yourself if you have enough faith); identification (believers are “little gods”); and the divine right of believers to health and wealth.
Roberts’ seed faith theology: sow a seed (i.e., give your money to your preacher, a televangelist, or the Trinity Broadcasting Network) and you will reap a harvest (i.e., you will get a hundred or thousand-fold return on your investment). So the preachers pressure their followers to give, based in part on the notion that they will get an earthly return. Because they believe in the other principles, such as positive confession, and revelation knowledge, it doesn’t matter that this seems illogical or contrary to what you know about making money from living in the world around you — the preachers are seen as God’s “anointed” and believers are taught to give in order to get.
That, of course, results in the preachers living in the lap of luxury — which is why Sen. Grassley is investigating six televangelists.
Thanks, and I guess, that means sizable problems for Romney.
To blame the poor for not having enough faith is like blaming someone for being sick or disabled. The very antithesis of true Christian belief. I don’t know how they can read the same Bible and come up with this coldness towards their fellow human beings.
Thanks – I would have preferred the opportunity to talk to them, of course.
One thing I might add is I did interview Carlton Pearson extensively for the book — he’s a televangelist who might be known to readers for his renouncement of the concept of hell. He used to be close to a lot of these figures before his theological conversion and he offered many insights into their thinking.
Re (2)
Think of the parishioners as akin to a battered spouse. “I know my partner loves me. It must be my fault that my partner hits me. I’ve got to do better tomorrow . . .”
Sarah, thank you for being here.
I’m interested in your book. I have in-laws who belong to a SE Ohio church that seems like the ones you describe, although it’s not a megachurch.
They don’t have warm feelings for family members who are poor or disabled.
Poverty growing up (or a feeling of deprivation or not being in the ‘in crowd’)…do you think this might partially explain this whole deal?
A Mega Church in Louisville KY had perverted versus from Timothy to justify its ‘prosperity theology’. I found this shocking coming from the Beatitudes version of Christianity. It truly seems that their flocks do not actually read the bible.
I do think that the preachers really believe it — after all, it’s worked for them. Every Sunday, perhaps even every day, they get up and ask people for money, people give it to them, and they live in fancy mansions, drive luxury cars, and fly around in private jets.
As for your second question, that’s a very sad thing to watch. You see people who beat themselves up for not believing enough, or people who are fearful of going against God’s anointed. And, as you’ll see in the book, I interviewed people who became disenchanted precisely because they never did get rich or even middle class.
Not necessarily. One very prominent prosperity preacher, Paula White, was at a meeting of high-powered evangelicals that gathered with Romney before he announced his presidential bid. And one of his principal evangelical advisors, Jay Sekulow, is rumored to be providing legal advice to the televngelists under investigation by Grassley.
Perhaps we assume these people actually read the bible
Actually, Michael Scherer at Time has a story up on Romney:
There’s more at the link, and some embedded links in the text.
I agree with Sarah that the eventual nominee will want everyone from the Christian Right on board — but it will be quite a trick to pull that off, given the egos involved.
That’s precisely the criticism of both liberal and conservative Christians about the prosperity gospel — that it completely distorts Jesus’ teachings. But I’ve had followers of the prosperity gospel tell me that Jesus was a wealthy man, and who would want to be Christian if Christians were supposed to be poor?
The separation of the flock from their “savior” is a fascinating and frightening thing to watch.
They have gone from “Who would Jesus love” to “Which portfolio would your lord recommend.” It seems unsustainable.
Words fail.
Alicia, every election cycle it looks like it’s cracking, but they need each other (from a vote-counting perspective, anyway). There are more fissures showing up within the evangelical community this year, but that doesn’t mean the alliance is dead. I’ll be exploring this topic a lot more in my FundamentaList column this week at the Prospect (appears every Wednesday).
Francis of Assisi?
One aspect of my faith, the Baha’i faith, is the fact there are no ‘preachers’, we collectively gather and read verses from the Bible, Koran, Baghavad Gita, Baha’i literature, etc… It is a personal and collective experience…
For those who are interested, here’s a link to the FundamentaList archive.
I do think that a need to belong is a huge driver of people into these churches. People who are alone — either actually or emotionally — are especially vulnerable. In the book, there are many interviews with people about the reasons that drove them into these sorts of churches.
They do read it, but remember most of them don’t have theology degrees, or college degrees, and are ignorant of hermeneutics. They twist the words to comport with their theology. Thus every mention of the word “prosper” in the Bible to them means that God wants believers to be rich — going all the way back to God’s covenant with Abraham in Genesis.
welcome to the lake ms posner…. not only do they have many members they have very deep pockets to get repug message out…. poor parishinors dont really know where their “tithes and offerings” go…
This is a little off the topic of the prosperity gospel, but quickly, the salient thing this year for the religious right is finding the most electable candidate who pays lips service to their issues. The only one who’s been completely out of the question is Rudy. They don’t love McCain, and now that Thompson’s dropped out, I’m not surprised they’re getting behind Romney. They’ve got other issues with Huckabee (Peter put up the archive to the FundamentaList if you want more on this — I’m going to be sticking to the prosperity gospel issues here.)
Did any of them evince recognition of the real reason why they didn’t?
getting back to the televangelists under investigation…. is that still ongoing??
Margot, I may have mistakenly responded to your question via another person’s comment, but in any case you can write to me at tapthefundamentalist AT gmail DOT com if you want to talk more about your relatives’ church. But it’s true, for example, Rod Parsley says that poverty is evidence of a lack of faith in God.
Thanks – both to you and Sarah.
Yes, I think you’re going to start to see Jews critiquing the prosperity gospel for the same reasons many Christians do — that the purveyors of it twist sacred texts and traditions to generate more $$$.
That ain’t no good for keeping authoritarian followers in line!
Incidentally, I frequently ride my bike past a Baha’i temple (I don’t know if you call it that; if not, sorry) in San Clemente, CA.
Sarah (and Peterr): I know quite a few black evangelicals (highly educated and others) – could they break for Obama?
It does, yet it continues to thrive. Thousands of churches preach this gospel (not just in the U.S., but all over the world — I met someone from India, a former Hindu, who is a follower), and although many people become disenchanted and leave, many more fill empty pews.
While we very rarely attend any church (we did this morning; two churches, a Southern Baptist and a Catholic church) we do think of ourselves as believers in the Golden Rule. We like to think that Jesus was a progressive. Happy Sunday. ;0)
[I have a long list of disclosures for this comment. I’m personally acquainted with the Osteen family, although I haven’t been in touch with them in a few years. In fact, I owe a fairly significant personal debt of gratitude to Joel’s brother-in-law. That said, I’m a committed Christian with a very different view of Jesus’s teaching. You can think of me as a pacifistic social anarchist, if that helps.]
I haven’t read the book under discussion, but I’m pretty familiar with the cultural milieu under discussion. It’s really hard to unravel the cultural, political, social, and theological forces that have created this movement. If I put on my amateur social historian hat, I can argue that the roots of this movement go back to the dislocations caused by the rise of mass mobility. Most of the followers in this movement are people who have little or no social support structure. In fact, there are many similarities between the social conditions that brought about the rise of Hamas and the ones behind the rise of the Prosperity Gospel. Despite the obvious differences, the continuing strength of both groups is largely rooted in the social services they provide.
Christ was Jewish. And the Jews, Christians and Muslims revere Abraham. I believe.
Juslin raises a very important point that is critical to this whole discussion. Unlike non-religious non-profits, churches (and other houses of worship) do not have to file tax returns with the IRS. Therefore there is no public disclosure of how much goes in, and how much is taken out, and for what purpose. Many, many evangelical churches voluntarily disclose their finances to their congregants, either because they want to be transparent, or because they belong to the Evangelical Council on Financial Accountability (which was formed in the wake of the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker scandal). But the prosperity churches do not have any disclosure. A change in the tax laws would go a long way towards exposing this — but of course there would be intense political resistance to that.
From a theological perspective, these preachers teach that the tithe belongs to God. Therefore it’s none of your business what happens to it.
Thanks, Sarah. I see where you answered my question (with regard to the need for belonging). I definitely think that’s a big part of it.
I enjoy Olsteen’s upbeat message. We watch him and his wife regularly.
Center of Worship, where we gather for all types of activities, besides worship… Local Spiritual Assemblies are elected and handle the business aspects…
Welcome Sarah, thanks so much for being here. The compassion you show for the people who are being exploited in these situations is admirable and I think often overlooked when the topic of televangelists comes up.
Yes, but they will describe, in essence, being under a spell, or being “brainwashed” (a word one person I met recently used). Now they see (and truly resent having given so much money to the pastor) but didn’t see it while they were heavily involved.
It is. Grassley’s press release from last November announcing the investigation is here [pdf]. One month later, he gave an update [pdf] as to who has and has not complied with his request for information. Where it goes from here is still up in the air, but Grassley does not appear to be letting go of it.
as a former member of this type of ministry – i can agree with your thoughts… plus they support the pro-life movement and that draws in people especially but not all african-americans and they in turn get to hear many pro conservative sermons
“Mitt Romney has acknowledged that Mormonism is not a Christian faith,”
When was this supposed to have happened? Having grown up mormon, I didn’t know anyone who thought anything but that we were christian. If Mitt has made such “acknowledgements” it would be remarkable. I have long thought that the evangelicals would have to get over their reservations about Mitt because, on paper at least, he is clearly the best candidate to keep the corporate and “values voter” coalition alive.
Thanks, Jane. I think a lot of people’s reaction is, well, anyone so stupid to give their money to a televangelist deserves what they get (or don’t get). But a lot of the people have been failed — by other churches, by their families, by living in suburbia with lack of community, by a host of things. They are looking for affirmation, for belonging, and hoping against hope that an economic system stacked against them can be overcome by something they believe is very powerful: their faith. They are truly being taken advantage of.
You know, you don’t really need religion to live a good life. For all I know there may be atheists in heaven. I hope so. It will, if I’m lucky, make for some perhaps rather good discusions around the chess board later. After I am “gone”.
The covenant to Abraham extends throughout the Major Faiths, all the key figures are direct descendants of him, however, Joseph Smith fails that test…
I worked with his brother many years ago, he was/is a good person and an excellent surgeon. I hadn’t seen him for a few years and ran into him at a book store. Asked how things were, said he had quit practice and joined the “family business”..a rather odd way of putting it, I thought.
Grassley indeed is continuing the pressure on the televangelists, despite intense pushback from the religious community (even from people not sympathetic to the prosperity gospel). Despite Grassley’s repeated statements that he is only interested in potential violations of the tax laws (i.e., use of tax-exempt donor funds to fund personal luxuries), there is a chicken little sort of response that this will lead to government intrusion into church affairs.
Grassley has no subpoena power, remember.
This is an election year, remember.
It will be a slow road.
We watch Mr. Osteen. But I had not heard that about his brother. I think Paul is his name?
Let’s abolish the tax free status for churches!
As a former member of an evangelical church, thank you for writing this. I was lucky in that the church I attended did participate in the Evangelical Council on Financial Accountability.
However, I did not like the vote this way handouts that were handed out with the service program. I left that church when the preacher started talking about how I would not a good Christian if I did not vote in accordance with his views. Not the bible’s views. His.
I’m not a fan of personality cults and that seems to be where so many evangelical churches are – the person preaching is more important than the message.
Did you find that also, Ma’am, or was mine just an isolated event?
That would be in conflict with LDS doctrine. The LDS church is the only Christian church..all other are apostates. IIRC
That’s a complicated question! Sure, they could. That will definitely be an interesting thing to watch this year. The GOP has been working hard to get those votes, of course.
His brother Justin designs compensation packages for televangelists.
The fundamental theological problem with this movement is that it is founded almost completely on “proof-texting”. That’s where you take small bits of text (in this case verses from the Bible) scattered throughout a literary corpus and weave them together to support a preconceived point of view. With a work as large as the Bible (which means the Protestant Christian Version usually in the KJV translation), you can “prove” just about anything.
Hagee, for our money, is just about the worst of the lot.
I have seen that quite a bit.
Exactly. It’s truly an amazing thing to watch.
Aren’t the tax laws the only viable means to chastise or punish the ‘Churches’, such as when the Preachers preach politics from the Pulpit…?
Sarah, in reading the book, I kept going back in my head to David Kuo’s book “Tempting Faith: an Inside Story of Political Seduction,” where he described Karl Rove and others as publicly pandering to various evangelical leaders but privately mocking them.
I’m more familiar with Dobson, Ralph Reed, Falwell, and that branch of the TheoCons, and I can’t quite see Rove mocking any of them. Hagee, Parsley, Copeland, and some of the prosperity preachers, on the other hand . . . let’s just say I can hear Rove making the kind of comment you described at 57.
Did you get any sense of this as you poked around the political (not religious) leaders in your book?
You are popping my bubble about Joel Osteen. But that’s okay. We can take it. Perhaps I have been wrong about the Osteens.
Right, their tax-exempt status prevents them (supposedly) from endorsing political candidates from the pulpit, or otherwise using their church’s resources to endorse or campaign for a candidate. But as we’ve seen this year, they slip into a phone booth, so to speak, and emerge a “private citizen” and endorse away. The reality is that no church has had its tax-exempt status revoked for such activity (except one, temporarily), and this year many of them are really pushing the envelope.
Paul..when I worked with him he was a good person..I assumed he hasn’t changed.
Welcome, Sarah! This is a tough topic to sort out.
It’s been around forever. The Catholic Church built a rich, powerful empire on religion. They selected the books that could go into the Bible, separated out as Holy Men spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. All the other books that didn’t support their empire were declared heretic writings and punishable by death. Priests told the people what was in the Bible to ensure people didn’t think for themselves. And the church got richer and richer.
The first “born agains”, the Puritans did the same thing as the modern preachers – they connected wealth with being chosen by god. They even took property away from anyone who disagreed with them. They slaughtered “savages” as their holy right to take their land because they were god’s chosen.
Religion has a long violent history and as long as there is organized religion, I fear their will be terrible violence and injustices.
This is so timely since yesterday I received another message from my southern relatives on god, Jesus, the flag and war. Yes, war is holy. Money is good. God gave the Earth to man to do with as he pleases. Onward Christian soldiers.
If preacherman evokes Jesus, not his teachings, anything he says comes from god. What Dark Age am I living in? It is getting darker and darker. Money is power. The Right Wing comes from god. And they are tax exempt.
True, are we supposed to turn the other cheek, or, seek an eye for an eye…?
On of Huckabee’s BFF’s.
I did interview a Rove subordinate, whose job was outreach to the black evangelists, and she confirmed that the outreach was all about getting votes. These guys have huge audiences, and were therefore worth cultivating for that purpose alone. She did say, however, that she did not recall the pros or cons of the prosperity gospel being discussed.
For the moment we are sticking with Mr. Osteen.
Feel Good Religion. Why not?! If it helps blot out the fact that you as a Christian have a responsibility to others and gets rid of your guilt trip then so much the better.
I am a very non-practicing Catholic, have been for a long time. My personal belief is it is what you do and how you treat others that counts and not necessarily what you believe.
The Hucksters described are a more sophiticated version of the TV peachers of the past. Give me money of be saved, get on the Heaven Express.
the prosperity doctrine pretty much benefits the pastor and his favorites… offerings are often raised for for community outreach which hides the real reason for the money raised…. these are massive slush funds for pastors to loot imo…. as i haven’t read the book as yet i’m kinda familiar with the contents
What are we to say or think about President Carter in the context of this discussion?
… and fly around in private jets
The number of preachers who fly around in private jets is probably a lot higher than most of us would guess … a lot of these guys, you never heard of them unless you live in the same city. As someone of my acquaintance once said, “What is it with all these preachers and their jets? Are you closer to God at thirty thousand feet?”
Wasn’t it because the Preacher was advocating for liberal candidates…? How blasphemous…!
And then there’s Ralph Reed.
The LDS church is the only Christian church..all other are apostates.
“Apostates” is such a strong word. The Mormon view is sort of similar to Ann Coulter’s view of Jews: they are un-perfected not-yet-Mormons.
Chris Lehman had a good piece about Osteen on Slate recently.
Yep, they’re doing the same thing with right wing blogs. Freepers at the White House. They are smart about these things.
When I first heard about blogs they seemed like they presented a liberal organizing opportunity that could potentially work the way churches worked. I don’t know why this has never occurred to Democrats but many obvious things seem to elude them.
Let’s just say that Habitat for Humanity doesn’t come up much in the Prosperity Gospel crowd.
Also, when Hagee & Co. view anyone working for peaceful coexistence in the Middle East as working against the will of God (Israel can’t co-exist with the Palestinians, according to Hagee — it must dominate them), I think it’s safe to say that Carter wouldn’t be invited to share the stage with Hagee.
Thank you so much for being here, Ms. Posner. You said your personal background was Jewish. Are you perturbed by Rev. Hagee and his ilk’s “support” of Israel which seems to me to be only a way they think they can bring on Armageddon? Also, can you explain why Sen. Lieberman, an observant and I believe Orthodox Jew, went to speak at one of Hagee’s meetings? Thank you again for being here. Your book just moved up to the top of the “wish list/must have list.”
isn’t he a part of the abramoff scandal? yet he’s walking around free…. go figure ughhhh and if i’m not mistaken has been hired as an op-ed writer for some newspaper ughhhhhh again
And when we speak of orthodoxy, let’s please not leave out Jack Abramoff or George W. Bush.
That’s true, it’s not just the big names that have the jets, even people you’ve never heard of have them — just shows you how much money if flowing in and out of even the smaller outfits.
President Carter is a true Christian. His every action proves it.
Oh, yes.
I went to a Missionary Alliance church for a very short time, and the Sunday school classes were exhausting. Trying to prove that the use of one word in Genesis didn’t disprove a whole lot of other stuff, for an hour? Please.
Just leave my grandmother alone, please. She was perfectly happy being an Episcopalian…
The jets are also “proof” that the Prosperity Preacher is truly prosperous — thus, is truly blessed by God and worth listening to. “Sure,” says the parishioner, “I may not be wealthy yet, but look at him. I’ve just got to believe harder, and then I’ll get my wealth too.” The jet becomes the symbol of God’s blessing.
Blergh.
To say the least. Hagee called Jimmy Carter Israel’s greatest enemy, or words to that effect in a vicious speech at the Christians United for Israel Summit last summer (the same summit, incidentally, where Joe Lieberman compared Hagee to Moses. But I digress).
Amen, He’s a true Christian and a national treasure… The Carter Center does phenomenal work, too…
Thank you peterr and Sarah.
FWIW, in the literature it is referred to as the “protestant work ethic.” As others above have noted, Roman Catholics were quick to appropriate it from followers of Luther. The name is unfortunate, because it’s much closer to what Luther fought against in the Roman Catholic Church, tithing. According to Roman Catholic Bishop John Tetzel, financial contributions allowed Catholics to buy their way out of time in Purgatory. Luther jumped all over this, because he correctly understood it gave the rich an easier and faster path to salvation.
As Sarah and Peterr understand, the Xtian churches have lost the ability to regulate their own symbols. Ku Klux Klan had no problem appropriating the cross for legalized white supremacy.
The churches are viewed as having much more obedient flocks than the blogs!
The use of religion in politics is a way to reach people who show up every Sunday to get talked down to and to be obedient and do as they are told.
No union meets as often with as many numbers, no sporting event… nothing comes close to the minions who show up to “pray”… and be “preached” to… sermonized to and so forth.
The republicans realized they could reach people from the pulpit as well as from the TV and radio and used this trilogy to drive their message and marshall votes. Their agenda was to move money to the wealthy and turn the running of the world over to the corporations, but under the fig leaf of a democracy where people voted… and voted against their own interests because the rich preachers told them to.
The heads of these churches identify with Bush’s real base… the wealthy … not the pious. So they were just delivering their flocks for the financial slaughter.
Obviously, they’ve never been to any of the churches I’ve served.
*g*
For sure. Lahoma and i absolutely love that man. ;0)
LOL! Jane and Christy both will tell you how often their flock misbehaves! I got spanked earlier today… for good reason.
Thanks, Marion. You’ll see more Orthodox Jews, and more hawkish Jews (e.g., at AIPAC) embracing Hagee because of his “love” of Israel. Liberal Jews and Reform Jews are critical of him, in part because they don’t view his staunch opposition to a two-state solution and his ugly rhetoric against Muslims as being in line with either their political beliefs or their views of Judaism. That, as well as his Armageddon-driven theology, in which anyone who is not a follower of Christ will not survive either the Rapture, the Tribulation, or Armageddon.
AP – Republican Mitt Romney sought to lock up the Florida primary by refusing to talk Sunday about little else but the economic jitters confronting the nation. His rivals took different tacks toward the same goal as they fanned out across the Sunshine State.
The TV preachers target the elderly. The older my parents got the more they were hit up for donations. It should have been the other way around – the church giving and assisting them.
So many preachers are openly allowed in elderly care facilities. They are urged to remember the Lord when they leave their worldly possessions behind. I knew one minister who managed to collect a serious amount of antiques, furnature and money from the elderly he visited. They bragged about it at the dinner table when I visited them.
I don’t think it’s a tough topic to sort out at all. Religion is about the worship of Death and the acquisition of power and capital. To this end it seeks to control the most intimate aspects of our lives.
Nathaniel Hawthorne’s The Scarlet Letter is central to any understanding of this country in this regard. But THE Great American novel is The Confidence-Man: His Masquerade by Herman Melville.
lol… you should have tried Psalm 105:15
Just leave my grandmother alone, please. She was perfectly happy being an Episcopalian…
Marion, your grandmother has nothing to fear from me since I haven’t darkened the doors of church or temple for 23 years or so.
Hail and Brimstone, might straighten them out, Peterr… ;-)
Who to say what a true Christian is? Your notion is one of the generous, giving, loving christ(ian).
I’ve seen plenty of vengeful ones who consider themselves true Christians.
I’m ok with atheists who act ethically and show humanity without god’s inspiration or direction.
Thanks for your reply. I just never could understand why he would go and address a group that was perfectly willing to consign him to an eternal lake of fire if he didn’t renounce his religion after “The Rapture.”
You mean you don’t have “sheep” in your church? g*
Democrats need to confront the Republicans on Christianity, and what it really means to be a Christian. Jesus just might be a liberal.
I’m critical of all jews and chistians and anyone who supports what Israel is doing and has become. That country practices state terrorism and has millions of people in virtual lockdown. What a disgrace that country is.
Is that right?
I will have to investigate this. I have a family member in a nursing home who’s quite able to report what’s going on. Maybe I’ll put a pentacle on his wall or something. ;)
Quite frankly it’s statements like this that I find extremely offensive on way too many “liberal” blogs. I don’t try to cram my Christianity down your throat and I don’t make assumptions about your atheism. I would ask for the same courtesy from you.
That’s up to you — do you want to turn the other cheek?
Sarah, you talk toward the end of the book about the Youth outreach of some of these outfits. I live in KC MO now, but before that I lived in the SF Bay area. Last spring, the Battle Cry folks came to SF to do outreach among the evangelical youth in the area, following up on a similar visit the year before.
Here’s the SF Chronicle’s writeup of the event. I think it captures well the various dynamics you describe in the book.
Because the are using each other to further their political religious agendas and will trash them when it makes sense. For now it seems to be helping. How despicable!
Certainly not! However, I’d prefer individuals to use their eyes to see the hypocrisy of their leaders…!
The Battle Cry events are very disturbing. I covered one in Tulsa, OK (at Oral Roberts Univ., a few months before the big scandal there broke) and saw Ron Luce, the head of Teen Mania (which runs the Battle Cry events) speak at Rod Parsley’s church. As you say, there’s a chapter in the book devoted to this — particularly how these youth outreach events, which are normally seen as straight-up evangelizing, are being tied in with the prosperity message. But these kids are being taught to reject the secular world completely in favor of this very holiness-focused version of Christianity. It’s really a youth-oriented merger between the holiness that ’s required at ORU (where Luce attended college) and Roberts’ seed-faith theology.
For people who want a detailed look at Teen Mania, I’d recommend Jeff Sharlet’s piece in Rolling Stone last April.
Well you’re not going to get it! Love the “down your throat” meme.
No assumptions are ever made about my atheism, or anyone else’s for that matter. That’s because in this “free society” we’re never discussed. Religion, which claims to own morality lock stock and barrel, despite a history drenched in blood (and I’m speaking of ALL religions) has intimidated everyone into believeing that it and it alone is the Supreme Moral Authoirty.
BULLSHIT!
religion for these folks is nothing more than retail brainwashing and kids and old folks are easy prey.
God bless you, and good evening.
What most Xtians don’t understand is that the four canonical agree on very little. Luke’s the one with the virgin birth. In Matthew, Mary is pregnant by another man, but Joseph marries her anyway. John and Mark ignore the situation. This confirms that tremendous pluralism existed in primitive Xtianity, even among those who could actually talk to people who knew Jesus in the flesh.
What’s remarkable about the story about Jesus and the money-changers is that it’s in all four Gospels.
Jesus’ resurrection is NOT in all four gospels. The original version of Mark didn’t have it.
Stripped of the layers placed on him by history, if people want to know who Jesus of Nazareth was, his conflict with the money changers is something very rare, something all those who knew whom agreed about. Which is my way of saying Sarah’s book gets to the heart of it.
I’m with David… religion kills but claims to save.
I’m a devout atheist.
That’s the whole problem with how religion has become infused in our politics. Just the other day a conservative Christian leader told me that Barack Obama’s Christian faith is “hardly mainstream.” So it’s quite toxic that religious tests have become such a big part of political campaigns. Who’s to say whether Jesus was a liberal or a conservative, and even more important, why should that even be an issue when we’ve got so many other pressing things to address?
something all those who knew
whomhim agreed about.Sorry.
I thought Frontline, or was it Independent Lens, did an excellent expose on Battle Cry, a month or so ago…!
That’s a bold statement.
I would argue that religion in the wrong hands can kill, like nearly any influential force.
My lady has asked me play this once more, She and I never tire of it. Lahoma tells me she thinks this tune is always appropriate. And I agree with that sentiment.
Happy Sabbath. ;0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..&NR=1
I must have missed that. CNN covered it in Amanpour’s 3-parter on religion, too.
I do know that Teen Mania disturbs some high-ranking folks in the National Association of Evangelicals. I’m hoping to be writing about this sometime soon.
The best film ever made about the life of Jesus Christ was the work of a gay athiest. Pier Paolo Pasolini.
No church, college or other similar institution should be tax-exempt. If the church or college catches fire, the local fire department will come and put it out as it would any other business or home. Time to end the free ride.
The thing that gets me is that the “new” money churches say, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus; but they never quote him…they almost invariably quote the Old Testament, which is what Jesus was always disputing, as far as quotations of his teachings allude to as written in the New Testament that has been vastly edited by men. Makes me nuts. Mao was right, it is the opiate of the people, and the rulers use it skillfully. I believe in a higher power or force, but I don’t believe in the manipulations and exploitations of human beings by men who claim to know Jesus personally — I say, prove it. The teachings of Jesus, as written, are about peace and loving one another, certainly not ripping the congregation off.
I caught that too, Amanpour did a good job!
If you want to see the preacher business growing leaps, go to New Orleans. There are countless wannabees renting some store front and hanging a shingle out. People flock. I went with my sister and her friends (they are always trying to save QuakerGirl so she doesn’t land in hell). It was two years after Katrina. My sister said it was different because it was more a Bible study group. That piqued my interest.
The hour was spent being entertained with rock gospel to get our toes tapping and the rest of the time I was preached at. There was no Bible study. He said nothing else in the Bible is important but that you believe the Lord is your savior and all your sins are forgiven, no matter how bad you’ve been and how many people you hurt. Wow! All I had to do was say I believe and I can commit any crime I want. I’m forgiven.
I studied the Bible for four years in a Luthern college. Nothing was ever presented that way. However, he did condemn peace marchers who marched on D.C. that weekend.
I am well aware that the FDL community is comprised of a high percentage of atheists and agnostics. I apologize if anything I have written above is hurtful or disrespectful in ANY way to the suffering many have suffered at the hands of organized religion, especially Xtianity. It was not my intention and it’s inconsistent with my positions on these matters.
Was that Jesse Duplantis? Just curious. For the record, he has a jet (N770JD, a Falcon 50).
The prosperity preachers do use both the Old and New Testaments to support their message (but as we discussed above, not in any conventionally accepted way). For example: “Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth…” 3 John 2.
Nope for me. Your valuable views welcome.
Isn’t that Shrub’s main canon?
I’ve talked about it here before but I caught Huckabee’s live act in Iowa and he was absolutely crack — whatever else these people are, they are real show biz pros. I’m always quite struck with how entertainment has supplanted news and now spirituality.
Oh and ORU looks like a gilt covered Orwellian whorehouse. My sister lives nearby and that always creeps me out.
In all the services I’ve covered, music is a huge part of getting the crowd prepared for the main event, the anointed one, the preacher. The music is loud, upbeat, and very, very catchy. (I regrettably often found myself singing the songs to myself for days afterwards, just because they were so pop-light and easy to remember, and got stuck in my head). But it’s always used as the warm-up to get the crowd going with their charismatic gifts before the preacher comes on and asks for money.
Heh, My wife is all stoked! Jesse will be here in sleepy Hilo town next month… As she claims, he’s so inspirational…!
Huckabee was a protege of the televangelist James Robison. So he knows all about the show biz end of things.
My e-mail is tapthefundamentalist AT gmail DOT com
That sounds fucking cool!
And Huckabee — although a Southern Baptist — has all but embraced the prosperity gospel in his appearances on Copeland’s program and at Hagee’s church (both of which I wrote about at the FundamentaList).
As Daniel Day Lewis says to Paul Dano after watching his “Faith healing” in There Will Be Blood, “That’s quite show you put on.”
Hucksterabee is cut from the same cloth.
I seem to recall that Jesse Duplantis was in a rock band before he converted to whatever it is he’s pushing now …
We get asked for money for the Blue People. hahahaha
My school principal in New Orleans was Miss Duplantis. How the same names come around over and over there.
This guy was up and rising. I hear they are growing. My sister has belonged to several of these churches until they implode usually with the preacher screwing around with too many younger parishioners. She always blames the women for “throwing” themselves on “the poor man”.
Sara Robinson at Orcinus has explained both passionately and eloquently (and, if I’m not mmistaken, from personal experience) about the fact that these are the people that need to be recruited to try to share the real truth with those being hoodwinked by unscrupulous religious authoritarians.
There’s obviously a long tradition of showmanship in American evangelizing. That’s where Sinclair got the notion for Elmer Gantry, of course, and Aimee Semple McPherson (still admired by people I’ve interviewed!) was nothing if not a great show-woman. With TV, highly amplified pop music, etc., all of that is expanded in scope and to a larger audience. Every one of these guys sells DVDs and CDs and the whole bit, which just spreads the message further and brings in more money for them.
You nailed it! I’ll see you in hell!
Hopi folks still pretty much follow their traditional beliefs which they practice in order to keep the earth in balance for all people. No mega anything here.
If that church was declaring itself tax-exempt, then the preacher was violating the law.
LOL! Not too many Deaf parishioners, then, I take it :-P
Huckabee’s embrace of the Prosperity Gospel is likely also an attempt on his part to reach the BigBusiness end of the GOP. As I said in the introduction above, it resonates with their stress on small govt, self-reliance, and such.
Don’t know how much good it’s going to do him with the Chamber of Commerce crowd, to say nothing of the Fortune 500 folks, though. Of course, saying to a big CEO that his/her wealth is proof that he or she is blessed by God is a nice way of stroking a corporate ego.
Duplantis is a protege of Kenneth Copeland, who I’ve mentioned as a good friend of Huckabee, and is one of the targets of the Grassley investigation. Duplantis, although not as big a figure as Copeland or Paula White or Creflo Dollar or some of the others, is revered in the movement, in part for what is regarded as his great sense of humor. (in the eye of the beholder, of course).
Unfortunately, since Bush the law is not enforced. It’s the deal made between the devils.
The voter guides are carefully crafted so that they don’t “endorse” a candidate, but just focus on certain issues… the way the IRS law is they are operating within it.
Duplantis is a pretty common name in those parts, quite probably no relation … but you are dead-on, those preachers seem to be thriving in New Orleans, particularly post-Katrina. Somewhat interestingly (to me) I saw a lot of Jehovah’s Witnesses down there – from all over the country – volunteering with rebuilding (starting with their Kingdom Hall, of course, but no matter … they were genuinely interested in helping, and actually doing it.)
I honestly think Huckabee is trying to reach out to Copeland’s audience, not the big business wing. I think the big business wing thinks the televangelism is crack-pot stuff. Huckabee knows just how big Brother Copeland’s audience is, and is hoping, probably, that that could make up for how much he’s underwhelmed some of the Chr. Rt. movement hot shots.
Um.. thanks. I worship a Dude who taught that we should love our enemies and challenged every form of authority he came in contact with. His immediate followers practiced a primitive form of communism. How could I be anything else?
I was not aware that Huckabee was reaching out to Copeland, et. al. That could potentially get him in trouble with his own denomination.
he very carefully straddled that line but left a clear implication that unless we supported pro-life candidates, we would burn in hell etc etc etc
he was very careful not to cross the line but his sermon left me extremely uncomfortable
There is a difference between Christianity and religion.
That’s when I stopped going to church, too.
Indeed. Which is why some people think he didn’t win South Carolina — that his outreach to the Pentecostals/charismatics offended some Southern Baptists. Now there’s no evidence of that (someone would have to do some serious polling) but there’s a lot of suspicion about Copeland’s lot in the SBC. But Huckabee, when speaking to a Pentecostal/charismatic audience, will say that his SBC church in Little Rock is more like their church and less like an SBC church, and has even called himself a “Bapti-costal.”
There is no hell to burn in, that’s in Iraq, right here on earth.
OK. I wasn’t going to do it but this one I received yesterday. They are all oh so white. Jesus looks like a Dane, military are all white boys, flags and crosses are intertwined. (Reminds me of the KKK a la 21st century.)
Turn up your volumn
http://www.trdaniel.com/Battle%20Hymn/index.htm
Which is why conservative churches are so dependable for the GOP.
Ever notice how the different Christian denominations are suspect of each other?
“Fundamentalism” is a good term for them and widely understood and accepted.
But, as William of Ockham observed above, I think it gives them way too much credit. It sounds as though they know what they’re talking about or are holding to some primitive truth.
I call them “selective literalists.” They take their 20th and 21st misogynistic and homophobic attitudes and try to impose them on texts that are a minimum of 2,000 years old and did not ask those questions in that way. Women could not own property in Judaism and the culture allowed a relatively benign and temporary form of slavery called “indebtured servitude.”
Todays fundies
“selective literalists”find one phrase or sentence they like, usually because it is vague, and then FERVENTLY ignore everything else. It’s a lot like Judge Bork’s pandering about “strict constructionism.” Perjury statutes were important in the Clinton prosecution over consensual sex. Perjury for Scooter was the result of an overzealous prosecutor for Scooter.OT, Much appreciated newtonusr
The possibility exists that Jesus and God are actually plasma.
“we would burn in hell etc., etc., etc”
707
Is that all???
I don’t want to cut the discussion off, but I want to express my thanks to Sarah — and the commenters — for coming by The Lake today and chatting about her book.
Sarah, this may sound odd…but in many respects the “prosperity churches” seem to mirror the money-making spirituality groups that sprung up in the 60’s and 70’s like Werner Ehrhard’s EST, Ramtha, Eckankar (and also Scientology). The idea was that if you really believed in the system, and the charismatic leaders “teachings”, then you could prosper materialistically, but also in some afterlife.
Why aren’t the very odd interpretations of Scripture by these pastors get blasted as being “cults” just as much as the Moonies were?
Also, is there any of these Christian groups that suggests that the must go through an ascetic period to reach a higher spiritual level. Sort of a “pay now…get rewarded later” approach.
Lastly, do any of these groups use the broadcast or TV to recruit and solicit donations. It seems that the FCC should be cracking down on these groups, especially if they are using the non-commercial part of the broadcast spectrum.
From the time Martin Luther nailed his 85 theses on the door…
That’s very astute. But they claim to be biblical literalists. Copeland’s followers told me at a conference that he preaches “the unadulterated word.”
correction @178. VOLUME – I just got so excited I lost all senses.
Plasma save America.
Corrected for you.
*g*
Sarah, thank you!!
Ever try to wrestle with the concept of infinity? And the Ontological Argument?
We’re not much better than New Guinea highlanders believing in “cargo cults” I guess.
Oops, my bad…!
Sinclair Lewis said “When fascism comes to American it will be wrapped in the flag and holding a cross.”
Beautiful. ;0)
That’s exactly the criticism of some conservative Christians: that the prosperity gospel draws on “new thought,” which is considered by them to be cultic, e.g., the teachings of E.W. Kenyon.
They don’t believe in any ascetic period, but many of them do believe that their theology is more “mature” or advanced than what you get in “regular” church.
The content of their programming is not regulated by the FCC.
It’s here! I see it!
You’re forgiven.
I think I can safely call that an obscenity.
Jane has a new post upstairs about Wingnut Welfare!
Thank you, Father! And Mahalo, Sarah for spending your time here at the Lake…!
Peterr, thank you for hosting, and thanks to everyone for their intriguing questions and insights. The amazing thing about covering politics and religion is that there is always something new to learn and think about, as evidenced by the discussion today.
I hope people have a chance to read the book, as it has much more information in it than we could possibly hope to cover here. I’ll stick around here as long as people have questions related to the topic of the book, and once again, I truly enjoyed the discussion today. Thank you all so much.
Just in time to be EPUed!
Re: Eye for an eye – which keeps being referred to as Old Testament. Actually that is Hammurabi Code, which is an improvement over the more violent reaction of “you take out my eye, i kill you.”
Much appreciated Sarah.
As I am sure you know, a lot of fanatical Roman Catholics have been taken into this hoax. If you find it useful, you might ask their stand on Pius XI’s
Casti Connubi from 1930. According to this Encyclical, Roman Catholics are prohibited from having sex after the woman can no longer conceive. Sex has one and only one purpose, to procreate.
Thanks, Sarah and Peterr! This was an awesome discussion of a very important topic.
Jane, I’m with you. No offence to the Catholics among us but I have never been able to reconcile the oppulence of the Vatican with Christianity as a whole. Never seen ORU in person, but I can imagine.
Follow the money. Long ago, I figured TV evangelists were a racket. What disturbs me most, is that they have turned their racket into a political machine. Sooner or later, something is going to have to give.
Consider me to be one of those strict seperation of state and religion people who want to keep politics/government as far away from my spiritual being as possible. I’m Christian if anyone wants to know.
Real Christians do a lot of good work for people who need it, with no agenda or financial reward. It would be a shame if that couldn’t continue because some people want to make money and influence politics.
IMHO, they need to get their priorities straight. Render unto Caesar comes to mind. So does into the least of us.
Well done.
Actually the concept of tithing is a bit different from the concept of “indulgences”. Tithing made sense when churches acted as the government, or as a sort of necessary underground parallel government when the State failed to fairly distribute services.
But you have hit upon something here. What these preachers have done is reintroduced the concept of “indulgences”…give us money and you will get
prayersto support your way out of purgatory into heaven. But these folks have essentially applied it to the materialistic desires of their followers in this sphere. But they are still indulgences.I met one of these gals this last month who pushes this stuff. One of the things she was trying to sell was “The Secret”. Don’t think bad thoughts or bad things will occur…think about getting rich, pray about it, focus on it…it will all come true. But in reality this gal couldn’t stop dwelling about her past bad relationships, employers, and living situation…but “I don’t think about those things anymore”. I tried to discuss some contemporary issues like Darfur (”Huh?”), the tsunami (”What?”) and, most amazingly, Iraq (”What’ so bad about what’s happening there?”) but when I’d start telling her she said “Those are bad thoughts you are bringing…let’s not go there!”). It was surreal!
When I was living in NC while the Jim and Tammy scandal was unfolding, I had a coworker who was the single mother of two children (her husband had left her) and she was working a second full-time job (for $8/hr) at the hotel I worked at so that her children would have health insurance.
She sent $50 to Jim and Tammy after the scandal broke. She said she felt badly for them, and they’d given her hope.
I wonder how many of the people who believe so strongly in prosperity gospel might feel that divine intervention is the only hope they have.
I believe there’s an explanation built around Mary and Judas and the ointment, but honestly I’ve never really seen it myself.
A number of orders do take vows of poverty, fwiw.
I think that’s right, and it’s in part a product of the culture of celebrity that we discussed a bit above, and in some cases, the spiritual authority that some of these preachers hold over their congregants.
I’m reading the book. It’s fascinating stuff.
I did a lot of reading on Ted Haggard last year, and it amazed me the extent to which people were willing to give over their judgment and their money to be told that somewhere, even if the rest of us couldn’t see it, they were winning, because someone close to God said so.
Boo, as an atheist nothing you’ve said offended me. In fact, you likely would offend fellow Christians more by suggesting that primitive Christianity wasn’t the same as modern orthodoxy, and that even then it was diverse.
I’m actually quite interested in Christianity and it’s history (as well as other faiths and their histories). I’m also a little odd as an atheist in that I do believe that there was a Jesus that existed and preached in the first century. Lots of people appear to have experienced him, and took away different meanings to his teachings that were passed on initially orally (none of the disciples seemed to have been able to write…or at least are recorded as writing something as simple as a letter, or Jesus’ words down). But I believe that one can see from the diversity of experiences and early “Christian” belief (not all followers accepted him as divine), and actually the reaction by the Jewish authorities, that there was a Jesus…one that expressed many philosophical concepts at odds with Mosaic strict adherence to the Talmud. Whether he believed that he was actually the “Son of God” or was using that phrase metaphorically (as it was used for David, and the prophets) isn’t going to make this “fallen” Southern Baptist a “believer” again. Even someone who is under a delusion can sometimes have very advanced insights.
Hi Sarah;
My religion is totally secret so know one else knows about it. That’s the beauty…they can’t pervert, exploit or spoils it. We (my alter ego and I)have no ladies dancing around with long white gowns acting ethereal,,,a little sad about that. There are no fees, tithes or other obligatory requirements to restrict our pursuit of hapineesas we take our last orbits around the sun.
We don’t spend a lot of time thinking about Elmer Gantry anymore. We do respect the rule of law and others to prostelze their fav spirituality. I just had someone come to my door and check out my aura, whih I guess has sorta slipped with all the political emotions of late.
We do indulge in the cultural milieu and have no particular prohibition…I think I canreveal this much and still keep it all a really cool secret. Shuck you probably didn’t want to know anyway.
Wedo support aspects of other groups such as kindness and helpfulness to others. Don’t tell on me please.
The IRS would not approve my 501c3 status for Coalition for Low INcome Housing as I did not have ANY assests! God first humanity and animals can suck it up.
OOH… Sarah what does a recession do to the Prosperity Gospel?
Not the Methodists
Lovely
Sarah…although these churches are probably all registered as tax-exempt religious organizations they do face certain restrictions as to what content they can espouse if they wish to maintain that tax exemption. They can’t use the pulpit to promote a particular political candidate, for example…though they have found ways around this.
My reference to radio and TV stations related to non-commercial stations. In fact, the FCC can regulate content here…and frequently does when it comes to some small educational station that runs an advertsement for an entity “other than the non-profit station itself”. Even asking for money for the licensee (for example asking for donations to the school) can get the station in trouble.
But many of these Focus on The Family broadcast stations are down on the non-commercial spectrum. Sadly there seems to be a double-standard with these religious stations in this regard.
Much appreciated.
These are the best scholars imvho at putting Jesus of Nazareth in his historical context: Jesus Seminar. Their books won’t try to convert you to anything except the historical truth about Jesus.
Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God. Much of what is in the four canonical gospels was added later by Greek Xtians. Much of what we know about Jesus’ Jewishness only surfaced in the 20th Century from the Nag Hammadi and Dead Sea Scrolls. Prior to that all we had for the most part were canonical and non-canonical Greek sources on the Jewish Jesus. Most of Jesus’ followers and a good part of Judaism was obliterated by the Romans in 70 and 125. That’s why Paul and the gospels had to be written. After Jesus’ death his followers grew into increasing conflict with Jewish authorities. The historical Jesus had no problem with the Pharisees, but his followers did. The gospels are primary sources on the primitive Xtian communities, not the historical Jesus.
For reasons we can’t explain, Jesus had some gift of healing that really didn’t transfer to his disciples. I cannot explain that, but “healers” was the extent of medicine in 1st Century Judaism. What made Jesus unique, and pissed off his family royally, was that he took his healing on the road. That wasn’t the way it was done. You stayed at home and made people line up and pay for it. Jesus only charged what people could afford. Jesus was also funny. 5,000 people don’t follow you into the desert if you’re not entertaining. Scholars opine that “the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed,” left them rolling in the aisles.
The anti-semitism in the NT, especially Matthew, is because after the destruction of Jerusalem, the Rabbi’s threw the Nazarenes out of the Temple. Jesus never intended to start a new religion, but his followers had to. They also lost their jobs and friends when they were prevented from both being Jewish and following Jesus.
For Greek Xtians, the anti-semitism helped them avoid the wrath of the Roman empire. It’s just not something that goes back to Jesus.
While I am nominally a believer, my Church is Jane’s place, FDL. I have found no other place where I find so many people who share my conviction about the dignity of the human condition. I studied to be a Roman Catholic priest, so I am fluent in some religious sounding jargon. I appreciate your words, because in this environment, people can jump to the conclusion that I am some bible thumper. You got it, it’s the pluralism that is built so deeply into the Judaeo-Xtian scriptures, that the fundies miss.
Another example, Mark, Matthew and Luke all agree that Jesus’ blood washed away our sins. Scholars call it “expiatory sacrifice.” John’s gospel does not agree. According to John, we were saved by Jesus’ birth. His death was unnecessary and was solely a result of human sinfulness.
My point to progressives is to attack fundies on these massive distortions of the Xtian scriptures, that they the fundies claim to hold so dear. It might break their strangle hold on a few of their sheep-like followers.
You might want to check with HUD. Also from everything I have heard, Columbus Ohio has some first rate housing for the mentally ill, that is heavily subsidized by HUD. If Columbus is that good at housing for the mentally ill, they might know something about low-income housing.
Wow, BooRadley – very nice!