Quite a few feminist activists are not supporting Hillary Clinton in her bid for the presidency. And that may seem odd, given that she’s the first viable woman candidate to run for the White House. She remains highly suspect to her cohort: middle- and upper-middle-class educated and professional white women over 40 years old.
Rebecca Traister gives her own reason why she’s not supporting her:
Unlike its sister gem, "I’m not a feminist, but …" (an utterance that nearly always gives away the fact that its speaker is in fact a feminist), the Hillary disavowal, in my case, has been true: I really am not a Hillary Clinton supporter. A feminist by trade, I have wished that I could get behind Clinton, a woman I admired when she first arrived in the White House 15 years ago. But there has been nothing in her steady, ineluctable move to the center that I could embrace; I understood why she did it, but it cost her my support.
And Frances Kissling states her own reason:
The sad fact is that Clinton has felt compelled to run as a stereotypical male. In her own mind it is only a certain kind of man who is qualified to be president and she will be that man: tough on everything from war, flag burning, kids’ access to video games, illegal immigrants and Palestinians. She has missed the opportunity to talk about what it really means for women to be equal in this country. She has shown no interest in using her extensive international experience to push for more women in party leadership, state legislatures and even the Senate. A woman candidate who considered her gender a strength (as opposed to something she needed to overcome) would announce a series of measures specifically designed to ensure that women’s needs and rights were at the forefront of her agenda.
In 30 Ways of Looking at Hillary, a recently published anthology in which thirty well-known women writers reflect on the candidate, Susan Morrison (who edited the book) says:
As I talked with women about their reactions to Hillary, some themes came up again and again. Many women were divided within themselves as to how they feel about her, and I noticed a familiar circle of guilt: these women believe they should support Hillary as a matter of solidarity. But, because they expect her to be different from (that is, better than) the average male politician, she invariably disappoints them; then they feel guilty about their ambivalence. Some feel competitive with her. Having wearily resigned themselves to the idea that "having it all" is too much to hope for, they view Hillary as a rebuke: how did she manage to pull it off—or, at least, to appear to pull it off? Other women say they want to like her but are disturbed by the anti-feminist message inherent in the idea of the first woman president getting to the White House on her husband’s coattails.
All these reasons more or less span the spectrum of feminist reaction to Hillary Clinton, but perhaps her decision to stay with her husband during the Monica Lewinsky scandal seems to be at the core of why she’s highly suspect to feminists.
And she has also been accused, by metonymy, of throwing highly accomplished women she had been close to under the bus during her husband’s first term in the White House: Lani Guinier; Marian Wright Edelman; Zoe Baird; and Kimba Wood, among others. In fact, during the campaign for that first term, a reporter’s question to her more or less captured her reputation as a polarizing figure in contemporary American politics: "You know, some people think of you as an inspiring female attorney mother, and other people think of you as the overbearing yuppie wife from hell," the reporter said. "How would you describe yourself?"
This last question is quite apt and cogent: Over fifty books have attempted to scrutinize her (the most recent cited above), but she remains unknowable and inscrutable, forever elusive even to those who are supposed to be close to her. “I’m a Rorschach test,” Clinton herself once told a reporter, meaning the way people project into her their own preconceptions and obsessions, and how they see whatever they want to see in her. The most interesting point for me about Hillary Rodham Clinton is that in spite of all these books about her, she has managed to retain control over her own narrative, has managed to elude all the frames and grids people have constructed for her.
Related posts:
- Late Night: Hatin’ on Hillary – Get Over It Already.
- Will Hillary Clinton’s “Partner Plan” Run Afoul of DOMA?
- Late Night: Conservative Girls, Send Me a Dozen
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Hillary Rettig, The Lifelong Activist: How to Change the World Without Losing Your Way
- How the Senate Winds Up Supporting the House Health Reform Surtax





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Thoughtful post..good work….Interesting insight
Biodun!
Thanks, Steve-AR…
Hey spurious…
Another thought..is “control of her own narrative” the ultimate definition of a feminist and not conforming to another person’s check list of what a feminist is? I am walking out into dangerous weeds here.
Great post. Not wild about Hillary personally but willing to give her a partial pass to do what she has to do to get past the ‘first woman’ thing. Ditto Obama, to some extent. But wish I could have voted for Dodd.
The problem with the feminist label is that it’s changed so much over the years–sort of like ‘liberal’.
You have a point…but controlling accusations against Hillary have always been linked to the question of authenticity…
The Clintons never feel “compelled” to do anything. They are value free careerists. As Obama stated in an oblique way, the Clintons are depressing and truly they are. I cannot bear the thought of 8 more years of that bullshit. And I would never even think of voting for them under any circumstances
There’s first-wave feminism (in the 19th century); second-wave feminism (in the 1960s); third-wave feminism (in the 1980s); and postfeminism (from the mid-1990s to now). Of course postfeminism is very much contested. Some say we haven’t arrived there yet.
Cindy Sheehan’s thoughts on meeting Hillary:
http://salsa.wiredforchange.co…..71&t=
Perhaps Hillary just isn’t a good person? Maybe that’s why many are having a hard time liking her. Or, we could all just be irrational “Hillary-haters,” and our feelings easily dismissed.
I’m not nuts about Hillary- but that’s the sort of relationship I want with my candidates- pure business. She can do the job- I don’t really care how she reacted to the blow job fiasco….”The Blow Job that Ate the World”.
So with ya on that. Well said.
I’d say it’s mainly men who think we’ve reached post-feminism. Similar to how it’s whites who generally claim racism isn’t still a problem.
Note: FTR, I’m a middle aged white male.
The change in definition has been dramatic. As an oldster who worked hard for women’s rights, I remember Andrea Dworkin(sp?) who wore overalls and combat boots to Britney Spears who doesn’t even thinks she needs underwear. Gives me whiplash.
I already voted- for Edwards. Now it’s up to all of you to decide who the candidate will be- whoever it is- I’ll support em- and I hope they aren’t too beat to shit in the process- cause the goopers are gonna give em a PROFESSIONAL goin over by the Goon Squad from Hell.
Kissling gives specific examples of how Hillary could be a feminist candidate:
(From the Kissling link in the post.)
“The change in definition has been dramatic. As an oldster who worked hard for women’s rights, I remember Andrea Dworkin(sp?) who wore overalls and combat boots to Britney Spears who doesn’t even thinks she needs underwear. Gives me whiplash.”
Natural evolution of bra burning?
The art of triangulation at which Clinton excels means that she is always presenting a moving target. She is more a process than an essence.
We economic parity arrives, and a woman earns the same salary as a man for doing the same work then maybe, perhaps postfeminism will have arrived. Maybe.
Britney evolved to panty burning- while she’s still wearin em.
That would be “WHEN” economic…
Nice Job, Biodun. From the Reporter’s question link:
“Hillary Clinton is exceedingly polarizing,” said Roger Stone, a Republican consultant. “It’s not that she’s an accomplished modern woman. It’s just that she’s grating, abrasive and boastful. There’s a certain familiar order of things, and the notion of a coequal couple in the White House is a little offensive to men and women.”
Wow. Would a GOP strategist dare say anything like this today?
Red, yellow, black, white, male, female, transgenedered, et al….A candidate should be judged on their positions on the issues. period.
Yea, Hillary’s reaction to her President husband getting a bj from an intern in the White House doesn’t mean much to me. That’s a very personal decision for her that no one can understand other than Bill&Hill.
Now as a husband and father of daughters myself, I can’t for the life of me fathom doing what Bill did. What a pathetic man, and I’d be happy if he went away and made millions in the private sector, and screwed around all he wants. I wish he’d stop embarrassing his wife, daughter, and America.
a reporter’s question to her more or less captured her reputation as a polarizing figure in contemporary American politics: “You know, some people think of you as an inspiring female attorney mother, and other people think of you as the overbearing yuppie wife from hell,” the reporter said. “How would you describe yourself?”
Yeah, rilly, why couldn’t she just give a straight answer to this “apt and cogent” question? I mean, it was perfectly reasonable! What’s her problem?
BTW, who was the reporter, Tweety?
Hmmm. Sexist. Male (& female) stereotyping. Male Bashing. Agenda pushing.
Total failure to consider what actually qualifies Hillary to be a presidential candidate- plans, leadership abilities, experience, etc…
Did I leave something out?
Hi folks…
Even though I’m not that taken with HRC I would not under any circumstances condemn or judge another woman for whatever steps she took in her own personal life to make sense of this crazy world. Everybody (that includes men, children, whatever too) has a right to live their lives the way they want to. Nobody really knows what is right for another person.
Hillary has accomplished a lot and as a woman I am grateful because of what she has done. The very fact Hillary is where she is at right now poised to possibly be the first woman president gives all women hope that perhaps there’s a chance their daughters or grand daughters may has that very same opportunity some day.
I know there are things that HRC has in her presidential platform that doesn’t make me very happy (like health insurance) but that doesn’t make me admire her any less…..
Perhaps. But then there’s this:
My bold. All women. (Disclosure: I knopw Amelia Jones personally. I published her first book in the mid-1990s.)
Biodun is, the man.
__________________________________
The most interesting point for me about Hillary Rodham Clinton is that in spite of all these books about her, she has managed to retain control over her own narrative, has managed to elude all the frames and grids people have constructed for her.
__________________________________
i do not relish a Hillary presidency, but she might well win me over once in office.
that said, i fully agree with the above statement. despite my reservations about her, which are based on some of the votes that she has made as a senator and some of her campaign omissions and commissions. it has nothing to do with what happened before 2001 and mostly to do with what has happened since 2006. virtually everything she has been accused of by the Village and the MSM , even if TRUE, suggest a person who can be as tough and mean as a president sometimes has to be.
Those are exactly why I’m having trouble seeing any value in supporting her.
…I know Amelia Jones…
We need some female input…I was just thinking about the Hillary/Wal-Mart meme. Hillary was the first woman on the board apparently because Sam’s wife and his daughter Alice were busting his balls about his all male board. At the time she was 39 years old and “they” put her in charge of the “diversity” committee which sounds similar to a “community outreach” where an AA would be placed. Apparently the “good ‘ol boys” were not shy about telling misogynist jokes around Hillary.
Would a feminist consider that a positive move for women or was it purely the cynical career move on her part?
I will look to others to be dispensers of compassion.
I will look to a presidential candidate to get things done.
People in my area need food, shelter, jobs, help with health care, help paying utilities, and on and on.
Hillary and Bill Clinton are in the Drudge Report pictured with Tony Rezko , the same Rezko that Hillory called a slumlord and used to slime Barack Obama in the Presidential debate.When questioned about this She says ” I don’t remember.” There is a pattern here.. she can’t remember that both she and Bill praised Ronald Reagan after attacking Obama for his comments about President Reagan… She touts her efforts at fighting for civil rights like LBJ when in fact she was a Goldwater girl and a Republican President of her college chapter. This is the same Barry Goldwater who did all he could do to block civil rights and the voting rights act which were also beneficial to women. Some thing is a matter here .. this is more than hot flashes. It is either indicative of how she reacts under stress or the onset of the initial stages of Alzheimer’s disease. In either case it is troubling.
We don’t have time for the kind of holier-than-thou idealistic puritanism that we keep hearing from different parts of the Left. Yes, of course – during the primaries, support your candidate: I’m for Edwards myself.
But we MUST support, and vote for, whoever is the nominee. Because while none of the Democratic candidates is likely to give you everything you want, none of the Republican candidates will give you ANYTHING you want.
I think Hillary is a disappointingly corporate centrist with too much invested in the status quo of the Democratic Party, and I’d prefer the anticorporatist and populist Edwards, or failing that, Obama who I don’t consider a whole lot better than Hillary, policy-wise.
But no matter what candidate is selected, he or she will get my vote, because things are too dire for divas and puritans.
wow, anyone notice this beating the wapo is heaping on edwards?
I’ll tell you, it’s kind of eye opening and it becomes clear why he doesn’t get support of feingold
I agree
She is no democrat in the important definition of the word as I understand it.
The woman in my life are testament to great capability, and strength of woman, my problems with Hillary have nothing to do with feminism and more to do with who she really stands with and it is not us, male or female.
Thanks, IrishJim…Of course, the reporter’s question link is to MoDo…*g* Billary’s nemesis.
here’s the link to that wapo article
Raises her hand…
Great post, Biodun.
Yeah Biodun. Smart piece.
The whole Republic Clinton Hate Machine is rested and ready to roll. This is just the start and the Clintons have weak, if any, responses. Who wants to relive all of that?
I do not know a single person my age (+/-30), man or woman, that likes Hillary Clinton, and the NUMBER 1 reason, more than any other, has been her war-mongering. It’s as simple as that.
Awesome post Biodun!
As a second wave feminist, I have considerable difficulty with Hillary if the idea is that I as a woman and feminist should support her precisely because she is a woman since I agree with the Kissling quote.
How she deals with her marriage is her own business mostly but her willingness to adopt a “maggie thatcher” type iron lady approach to foreign
policy is very disturbing to me. Feminism is not just about “get a woman for the job” but is routed in a position of breaking down the “power over” model that is exemplified by actions like the occupation of Iraq.
After reading Russ Feingold’s comments about John Edwards, it sounded like Russ wasn’t sure that John had changed “his spots” since his days as a Senator.
No information there as to whether he was voting for omnibus bills, or whether the language of the bills is substantially different from what he now opposes.
This kind of super-simplistic analysis hinges on the readership being ignorant, both of the language of the bills discussed and of the complexities of legislative processes.
Listen to a little Thom Hartmann or Randi Rhodes, they are skilled at explaining the ins and outs of Congressional process, and why certain votes turn out the way they do.
Well I’m only admitting to second-wave. :~) Re Hillary, a friend who lost a son-in-law to a helicopter crash at Ft Drum (NY) said that she came to the military service, touched the hand of their orphaned baby girl, and wept. A different perspective.
I’m an Edwards supporter. But as I’ve said before many times if Hillary is the nominee, I’ll hold my nose and vote for her. I’ve never voted in my life for a Repug candidate, local, state, or national, and I have absolutely no reason to start now…
From what I remember of reading the feminist reaction, most of the ones attacking her for not divorcing Bill never really liked her anyway. Neither did I, but I am at least willing to give her what I think is her due.
Sticking by him throughout the whole CoupGate monstrosity was the best move she’s ever made. Let Republicans shed their spouses like snakeskin; Newt and Rudy have had six between them so far. Besides, she of all people knew that to give an inch to the Republicans on this issue was to invite the destruction of the country.
How Hillary handled Bill’s getting nookie on the side is between her and him and the nookie-giver, nobody else.
Oh, Jeez, these are the lamest excuses for not voting for her.
Look, no one should vote for her just because she’s a woman. But these so-called feminists are giving credence to that old Freudian question: “What do women want?”
It’s perplexing because they accuse her of simultaneously not representing women’s issues sufficiently while running as a “WOMAN”.
And exactly how old is the person who is quoted on the Kimba Wood, lanie Guinier stuff? Because I don’t think Hillary had anything to do with throwing them under a bus. They were taken down by Republicans who dug up nanny problems and didn’t like Guinier’s theories of proportional minority voting. How quickly we forget.
Personally, I’d like our approach to deciding on a president to be completely free of gender or racial issues. We should put them all behind a screen, give them numbers and ask them to type the answers to the questions the moderators would give them. But even if we did that, Hillary, er, candidate #1, would come out on top. She has a deeper knowledge base and understanding of the issues and it shows-consistently. She’s tough on national security. A president is *supposed* to be. That’s not being male, that’s being responsible. And she has to be competitive because a campaign is not a collaborative team effort, it’s a competition.
So, don’t vote for her because she’a a woman. Vote for her because she’s the best and she’s a woman. We’ve never had a qualified, viable female candidate before. There’s no better reason than that to vote for her.
Thanks, Jane! I’m quite honored to be part of the FDL community. And you’re a great example for me.
Bravo Biodun!!
Thanks. Now you understand the hint hint I said the other day…*g*
Hillary is walking a double standard “tight wire” that any woman would have to walk in her position. Too much emotion, can’t trust a woman to be C in C too little, cold bitch. Being the first ain’t easy.
Well I don’t think that hit piece was very honest, coming from Feingold. I’m sure Feingold knows very well that a senator is answerable to his constituents, and Edwards is from a conservative southern state. This is why it’s hard for senators to run for president.
Anyway, what’s up with Russ? Is he from the Lieberman-Daschle-Obama wing of the Democratic Party?
I’ve spent years railing against this attitude. I think this is a big reason why the DemocratIC Party is in the predicament it is currently in, and why we’re having so much trouble with our current Dem “leadership.”
However, I may be wavering on this point in terms of the Presidential, and the main reason for that is Blue America and similar efforts. We never had this infrastructure in place before, and we can exert a lot of control over the process now, regardless of who’s in the WH. Not sure yet since I want to see how they carry themselves during the General campaign season. In the meantime, More and Better!
Perris:
The 2000/2001 B-Bill isn’t the same as the 2005 B-Bill, and in April of 2005 Edwards apologized for his vote on the 2000 bill (which Clinton vetoed) and strongly opposed the 2005 bill:
Breathtaking. People can change their minds about something. But everything? The man served one term in the Senate. He left not a single substantial piece of legislation to his name, only an endless string of votes on trade, education, civil liberties, energy, bankruptcy and, of course, war that now he not only renounces but inveighs against.
_______
i get it. WAPO thinks Edwards is the Antichrist. Am i surprised? (Is the Pope still Polish?)
did the man change? of course he changed. the fact remains that he’s the best candidate out there.
I had the same reaction.. WTF. Of course what you said about Senators and Edwards votes also applies to a New York Senator..A*PAC and post 9/11 voting..it ain’t easy to be a Senator.
These attacks on Edwards are interesting. The NYT endorsement of Hillary made similar charges against Edwards. I think that Edwards is being taken more seriously by the powers that be. Before they were content to ignore him, now they have moved on to attacking him. He has an anti-corporatist message which scares them and which they would like to spike now that they think it is gaining currency.
The point here is that most politicians do change their positions. Unlike a Romney who position changes are recent and pretty obviously driven by polls, this really doesn’t seem to be the case at all with Edwards. He has espoused them for a while now and in spite of the cold shoulder the media have given him.
I find Feingold’s remarks reprehensible. I have said this before but if he had wanted to run, he could have. He chose not to. Now here is Edwards speaking out for the positions Feingold supports, and rather than back Edwards Feingold is criticizing him. It smacks of wounded ego and reflects poorly on Feingold.
The thought of 8 years of Billary is truly depressing. Of course, I’d rather shove knitting needles in my eyes than experience one minute of a President McCain, Romney, Huckabee, or Giuliani.
And I like this bit about third-wave feminism:
(From the same link as 28)
agree..about reflecting poorly on Feingold.
So much in the world has changed and so much in Edwards’ life has changed since then. Only a robot would stick to their old thinking, and that is why I like Edwards…he’s not afraid to admit that he has evolved in his thinking!!
If you ask me, it is Edwards who has found his voice and his purpose.
Thanks Siun!
This also reminds me of the attacks launched against Jack Murtha, who originally backed attacking Iraq and then became one of the first legislators to advocate getting out of Iraq.
Not to mention the smarmy attacks launched against David Brock when he jumped off the wingnut-welfare gravy train: “He said he was lying then, so how can we believe him now?”
I’ll hold my nose and vote for her too–or Obama, or anybody else the dems nominate. Can’t understand those who would risk another repub win on the grounds that the demo candidates aren’t pure enough. Purity or trollery? Just let us get the current criminals out.
Hey LS:
Thanks!
I agree, I never bought the “she should divorce him” thing myself. Nobody’s business.
But I did have some guy at Matsuhisu ask with self-righteous indignation how I, a woman, could not vote for the first woman candidate for president. I was with Howie and Amato and he was at the next table and asked me the question when he overheard our conversation.
No, I didn’t say “Shirley Chisholm” and spit in his food, but I did want to punch him.
On the WaPo Edwards piece, Krauthammer is one of the creepiest right wing pundits so I don’t use him as a guide to my thinking.
However, Edwards did take those votes and does not have a progressive history during his time in the Senate – and his positions on foreign policy are quite mixed – progressive on developing countries, hard to pin down on Iraq and too willing to make statements to Israeli audiences that suggest support for attacks on Iran.
I think many of us – including me – would like to have him as a choice for president since his “conversion” seems quite genuine but that history should be acknowledged and Feingold certainly has a right to raise it.
Feingold did something that many might see as worse on the whole than anything Edwards did: He waved John Roberts through onto the Supreme Court.
You are very welcome! I’m still sitting here scratching my head as to what the hell I think and feel about Hillary….:)
Now here I’d have to agree. The fact that I was curious about why some feminists were not supporting her does not mean I do not acknowledge your point here. Thanks.
What is the upside of the Clintons? Different downsides than McCain, etc. Are we so bad off that we would vote for the Clintons to get Zoe Baird instead of Gonzales or Ginsberg instead of Alito? Is that all there is? I will listen to Peggy and do something else at that point.
Have mixed feelings about Hillary and Obama. Both are going to run into a buzz saw in the general election. However, both should have sufficient ammunition to fire back at them. Obama wants to bring us all hope. I’m for that but I also want someone who is tough. Not only with the Republicans but with the Dems as well. They’ve all got their fingers in the pie. Hillary’s got the toughness but does she want to break up the status quo? Can she inspire others to follow her? Not sure…
Sigh, Edwards I wish more people caught your vision. Because I truly think it will take a fight to take this country back for the middle-class.
Amen. And Obama faces a similar problem, though I think gender may be the greater barrier (at least according to Shirley Chisolm). Just hope someday we can get past these ‘firsts’ so we can concentrate on issues.
Now Shirley Chisholm was the best … god, I wish we had candidates like her today!
(even Bella Abzug would be refreshing!)
I sent Edwards an email about these things when they wanted me to send them some money.
My problem is all three candidates are not truly saying what needs to be said. Out of the three who will really deal with our domestic issues on the economy, health, and labor in a substantive manner, or, will it be just another model of the same bullshit that once again does nothing to further the health of America, that benefits the few and leaves the rest feeling frustrated and impotent, knowing they have been sacrficed at the alter of free market laissez faire(sp) at its worst.
Then
SenatorPresident McCain won’t bother you?After years of complaining about the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy and Whitewater and so on (which was fair IMO), how ironic Hillary plays that same game in bringing up Rezko? So classy…
It’s a nothing story and at the very worst, is a minor story. Yet, ever since Iowa, here are the Clintons attacking constantly and over incredibly hypocritical points. It’s the only game they know. Obama’s been taking the bait somewhat…hope he doesn’t fall into the trap too much more. We can choose a different type of politics by choosing candidates other than The Clintons.
People are always saying they want politics to be different. It’s up to us to make it so.
Biodun great post. It is going to be interesting in the Nov election to see both the Dem and the Repub running to the left. Will make for some fun debates. I don’t for one minute think Hillary is as conservative as others seem to think. She will go left and I believe would be a good president – I am an Edwards supporter.
He said he wasn’t running for personal reasons, and something about he doesn’t want to expose his family. Tangential reasons, hinting at what I don’t know. But at something.
Mitt said it last night to great applause.
Ah-Ha….I did not look at the byline. Maureen has been writing hit pieces on Billary for a long time running.
Great reading…thanks Biodun. How much do first timers have to master the game as it is before they can truly change the game for those that follow?
Shirley Chisholm! Yeah!
(Victoria Woodhull was probably the first woman candidate for president, but Shirley would have actually made a great president.)
Bother me alot but I will not go bottom fishin with the Clintons. Because they leverage off the low bar.
That would good enough reason for me to vote for Hillary.
Good Point. Not quite as bad as the 1992 WAPO piece but diminishing the notion of equal spouses, never the less.
I still can’t believe the Right Wing O sphere is not spun up over Romney labeling Reagan a Tax and Spend liberal.
Here’s why I think some feminists won’t support her:
because they’re afraid to see a woman taking her power even though they say they’re not afraid of it,
because they’re so insecure that they a need a perfect mirroring of their own definition of feminism,
because they’re afraid of what Hillary Clinton stepping into the presidency would mean for their own lives, and they’re looking for any excuse.
Woman are still holding her to a different, tougher standard than they’d ever hold a man. I’m sorry she isn’t perfect. Just human.
LOL! Maybe the guy meant “first viable woman candidate”–to cite what Andrea Mitchell said about John Edwards last week sometime…*g* (BTW, Shirley Chisholm was quite well-loved in my borough of Brooklyn… God rest her soul.)
Hugh January 25th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
60
In response to perris @ 36
These attacks on Edwards are interesting. The NYT endorsement of Hillary made similar charges against Edwards. I think that Edwards is being taken more seriously by the powers that be. Before they were content to ignore him, now they have moved on to attacking him. He has an anti-corporatist message which scares them and which they would like to spike now that they think it is gaining currency.
The point here is that most politicians do change their positions. Unlike a Romney who position changes are recent and pretty obviously driven by polls, this really doesn’t seem to be the case at all with Edwards. He has espoused them for a while now and in spite of the cold shoulder the media have given him.
I find Feingold’s remarks reprehensible. I have said this before but if he had wanted to run, he could have. He chose not to. Now here is Edwards speaking out for the positions Feingold supports, and rather than back Edwards Feingold is criticizing him. It smacks of wounded ego and reflects poorly on Feingold.
__________________
i pasted you the last time you said something similar and i still wholeheartedly agree.
none. of. the. candidates. is. pure.
they all have sausage all over their hands. all the grease and gristle of congressional politics.
if John Edwards were to start getting traction the Corporate Media would really start to shit in their pants.
yes, i’m a dreamer and a fantasist, but, until he tosses in the towel i’m for Edwards.
I think politics is bloodless warfare. Well, usually bloodless.
It’s like chess only it really means something.
I don’t care very much whether it changes right now or not. It is a way for us to accomplish things our citizens need.
I’m not looking for purity, I want results.
I keep worrying about our need and desire to annoint a candidate as not just best of the lot but as our hero. The real heroes are each and every activist who picks up a phone to call about FISA etc …
If we can face up to the limitations of the candidate pool we’ve been “given” perhaps we’d have a better chance of building a truly progressive alternative.
We may have to vote for someone in November who is not on our side – and I do think that eventually we are going to have to withhold votes to finally push the corporate class out but we don’t yet have the momentum etc to do that – but that does not mean we need to see any of them as our knights in shining armour.
Re Hillary – I find discussions of her marrital problems offensive (and I’m not a fan of the “hot flashes” comment above) but her involvement in the Clinton legacy – which she is running on – is more than fair game and for me a major problem. I’d sorta rather deal with new negative surprises than a repeat of the ones we saw before … half joking, half not.
Being tough on national security doesn’t impress me. Bush is tough on national security and look where that has gotten us. I want someone who is smart on national security. Clinton’s support of the war in Iraq until June 2006 and her ongoing refusal to apologize for her AUMF vote (which gets most of the press attention) and more importantly her 3 year support for the Iraq war undermine any claims of toughness or deeper knowledge.
Where is Clinton on the FISA issue? Yes, she is against telecom immunity, but where is she? Is she giving the Senate and her Democratic colleagues the benefit of her deeper knowledge, or using her position as a major Democratic Presidential candidate to influence its outcome? No. She like Obama is out talking about leadership rather than demonstrating it.
Clinton is only beginning her second term. And let’s face it during her time in the Senate she had been prominent because she is well known not because of a substantial leislative record or leadership role.
Wow. Excellent points. Also, can Russ even give a compliment were compliments are due? What about Edwards long time commitment to ending poverty? His Anti-Poverty center. He outlined the two America theme in the 04 election. Russ should be celebrating the fact that at least one candidate has raised the progressive agenda to the national stage. Russ looks petty.
Hi Siun. Yes, I need to check my fantasies sometimes. My current desire is for ALL THREE Dem candidates to come to the Senate floor and STAND TOGETHER in unity against tyranny symbolized by Telecom Immunity.
Everything they’ve been doing since New Hampshire points to the fact Billary wants to paint Obama as a black candidate. Something the latter had resisted. The strategy seems to be that if Obama wins in S Carolina, Billary will say he won because of the black vote. Then Hillary can win everywhere else…
Thanks Twain!
You know what I like about this place
Talking to myself-lol
And
The discourse for the most part is civil even in disagreement, we just want humanity and justice and the road to that end is not a straight one, it has many possibilities and you all present some pretty good arguments.
Ding! And perhaps we might be pleasantly surprised with new blood and new ideas.
In the general election, not voting for the dem candidate is not voting against the republican candidate. It’s a vote wasted, and if the repubs win, you would be among those responsible. Or is that your object?
Isn’t the complaint that Obama doesn’t know he’s black?
This seems like an unfounded assertion and a caricature of “feminists”:
“All these reasons more or less span the spectrum of feminist reaction to Hillary Clinton, but perhaps her decision to stay with her husband during the Monica Lewinsky scandal seems to be at the core of why she’s highly suspect to feminists.”
Are you referring to me or to Hillary? *g* (Thanks!)
I would like to know the context of his remarks. Was he asked, or did he just offer them up?
Petty may be correct. He has every right, but the timing is interesting, and awful.
I hate to say it but I think you’re on to something here. There is no way she is going to be uber-goddess-wonder-mother to all women.
But there is also, I think, a generational problem because some of the reasoning here sounds like revisionist history. The Zoe Baird, Kimba Wood, Lani Guinier stuff was not Hillary related. They were taken out by Republicans and the media.
As for being “centrist”, I don’t know if that is entirely accurate given her progressive voting record. But it’s the kind of thing you would pick up from the older generation, solidly baby boom, who were unhappy that the Clintons were unable to turn the country into Sweden. Yeah, they expected welfare recipients to acquire job skills, the meanies! People forget that it was the Republicans that cut back on child care funding for welafare recipients and labor standards for NAFTA. Oh, noooo, it’s all the Clintons’ fault.
I dunno, it just seems like there’s a very warped historical narrative floating arounf and an awful lot of young progressives have bought it hook, line and sinker without ever considering whether any of it is true.
But, yeah, I don’t get some of these feminist attitudes. It they’re waiting for the perfect female candidate, they will not see one in our lifetime. Or ever.
I’m sure this is true. However, I can also see a woman voter (feminist or not) looking at all the humans and setting aside the fact that one of them is female. So all that being “equal”, I would rather not for the careerists. (I see Obama as careerist too.)
So I’m voting for Edwards because he really seems to want to represent, not dominate or oppress.
my concern exactly. The divisive backbiting exchanges on-going on daily kos between pro-clintonians and pro-other candidates is already a measure of the meanness out there aided and abetted by the availability of web expression–and that’s within a Democratic environment. Then add the slanderous emails that one hears about. If she is our candidate,it becomes our problem. Any one have any thoughts about how we are going to a. survive and b. fight back?
As a married female politician with left-leaning ideas for most of her life, Hillary has had to walk a tightrope of, on the one hand, being identified as an emasculating bitch; and on the other hand, being seen as an “undesirable” middle-aged woman evidenced by her husband’s public cheating escapades with a woman half her age. Her reaction to the latter left her tainted on both sides…She deserved it – She should have dumped him. Neither is true.
She is a just a human being who happens to be a politician, whose spouse has already been President, and whose private life has been very public. Hillary Clinton is not like Bill Clinton.
Now, in light of that, her choices to use the lobbyists in order to climb to the top, is fairly understandable and perhaps wily in the end, I don’t know. I do think she will be more left-leaning as a President if elected. I do not think she is a war-mongerer, and I do think she really cares about labor, and universal healthcare. It’s just hard to take, knowing how she is having to behave in order to get there. I think she’ll make a good President if elected. I’m hoping for Edwards, but I’ll take her…well, because by the time my vote is counted, I’ll have no choice.
He has said many time tht being black was aprt of his identity, but he’s not defined by it…
Hi, Biodun, great post! Really great, congrats to you. (I’ll have a favor to ask in a few!)
While there’s much to admire about Hillary, there’s also much to be at least skeptical about. I had an attitude as soon as the RNC started announcing that she would be the Democratic candidate ASAP after the election in 2004. That’s actually when I thought she started running. By the time her support of the flag burning legislation came up, I was already fairly turned off. By now, if she ends up the nominee, I will hold my nose and vote for her (because I know she will need every vote she can get because she’s so divisive), but I’ll be waiting for her to turn coat as soon as she is sworn in. I wonder, though, what will happen no matter who wins. Obama has shown some signs that he intends to do exactly what some of feminists proposed that Hillary should do for women for the black race. In many ways, that’s warranted. We all know we’re not at full equality yet. But will members of all the different ethnicities, etc. be as receptive when they find themselves feeling as if they’re being treated like second class citizens? For instance, consider the following:
Should make for an interesting decade!
Well I meant Hil, but if the shoe fits!
This discussion reminds me of the ongoing story of the NA tribes out here. One tribal leader said, hey, these guys (white govt) wrote the rules, and now they are complaining that we are succeeding using those rules.
That really made an impression on me about use of power.
I heard this too. It sort of is on par with wanting to spend more time with yor family. As the muck that has been brought up about Clinton, Edwards (Forteress), Giuliani, and Huckabee, sh*t happens and it usually comes to public light. Feingold decided to opt out of that. That’s OK, but his attacking Edwards (who agrees with many of Feingold’s positions)for exposing himself to that level of scrutiny which Feingold wished to avoid for himself is to put it mildly inexplicable.
Russ probably wouldn’t mind a spot in the next Administration, and perhaps he’s determined Edwards is not going to come back. Russ has the ear of a lot of the Edwards base, and his saying this will make a lot of these Liberals more comfortable in supporting Obama or Clinton. I’m sure those two are most grateful for Russ’s kind words.
Just go to google and type “Monica Lewinsky scandal” and a whole range of this particular point awaits you. Although I’m not saying that’s what I did… And: I will never caricature feminism. I did/do have feminist credentials in academia.
(Hope people know I was being tongue in cheek)
But there we go. It also follows that Hillary is a woman, but she is not defined by it.
Which I guess is the point of your post. I’m losing my point. OK, going to be quiet now.
as an older generation, solidly baby boomer who was on welfare for a short time during the Clinton’s years, I’m no real taken with your style of argument. Just sayin’
And given that Hillary’s support is more frequently coming from my generation than my daughter’s, I think you’re missing the trends here.
Biodun late to the thread but Hi! & nicely done.
No, Bush is NOT tough on national security. Starting wars and lining your friends’ pockets is not tough on national security if you manage to make thousands of enemies a day.
I hated her IWR vote. I think it was stupid. She should have told her constituents to go jump off the Brooklyn Bridge. But I still think that out of all the candidates, she’s most qualified to fix it.
And yeah, I wish she would filibuster the FISA bill but I would be just as satisfied if she extracted hefty concessions from the telecomms on consumer issues and REALLY make them pay. When I think of what a pittance a class action suit is going to yield me in the end compared with the ability to use my choice of cellphone on many competitive networks at reduced prices, I’d take the latter to the former anyday, and hold the sword of Damocles over the heads of any telecomm who ever cooperates with the govt to spy on me again.
Think creatively.
If he sees his future in the Senate being undermined by the likes of Reid, I can’t blame him. But it (going after Edwards) was uncharacteristic of him in the abstract, I thought.
I always thought of Bill and Hil as more of a merger than a marriage. Why divorce your business partner over a dalliance?
Nobody should have to be defined by their subgroup–and given the diversity in this country, nobody is going to be elected if they’re perceived as representing only their (most salient) subgroup. JFK had to take a lot of flack because he was Catholic, but we finally got beyond that. Now for race and gender.
I think she started in 1992. Seriously. Was moving to New York and immediately becoming a Senator, largely on name recognition, because of her intense concern for the people of New York, having never lived there before?
Or was it a stepping stone?
perhaps but not voting for the repubs is still that. And if the Clintons get the opportunity to serve up 8 more years of complete bullshit, they will be the beneficiaries of your approach. If it is the Clintons again, I wll go local. I recognize your logic but I believe the Clintons are just as dangerous as McCain. Please remember this, when the Clintons begin touting their economic prosperity line, their last effort was all based on dramatic increases in dependence on foreign oil (with no attendant attempts to avoid that happening), more so than any other administration before or since, I believe. They are complete bullshit artists and they are dangerous. It is vital to get Edwards or Obama, any way that is lawful and proper.
Clinton will bring out Repubican voters in record numbrs like no other candidate can–and like no election organizers can. From the Republican point of view, every campaign feels it’s urgent that she be the candidate. They see her as the easiest to defeat because she will bring their vote out in spades.
5/clintons/”>Clintons Look Backward DeJa Vu All Over Again Yogi
Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton propelled the Republicans into power for 12 years. And they are trying to do it again–and may well succeed.
What’s intriguing is that when Clinton invokes the battle she had for health care, she has never spelled out precisely what her health care plan was. From a medical perspective, there’s no “there” there. No one can tell you what Clinton’s 1992 health care plan actually was, because she won’t talk about it in detail other than to say she made efforts for health care.
If anyone can link me to what Clinton’s health care debacle actually entailed interms of delivering care to sick patients–I can’t wait to see your links. And please do better than an invective because someone opposes your candidate. I want to see what Clinton’s health care plan–i.e patient sick–get care to patient actually entailed during the 1990’s. No one seems to be able to answer that question with details. Yeah, she had a plan.
And what was it?
Hospitals, outpatient visits, doctors, insurance companies, 3rd party payers– money–where did they fit into her plan precisely that was conducted in secret with Ira Magaziner in the White House? She has refused to answer questions about it to every group that has asked including physician groups.
Bill Clinton allowed her to allign the legal situation for the White House. That worked out like the Titanic. She hired Nussbaum–he was gone after a year. She then hired Webb Hubbell as White House Counsel–that ended in forced resignation and prison. Great lawyer choices by Senator Clinton.
She insisted on her college buddy for Attorney General, Zoe Baird, who resigned the nomination in a flash over a “nanny problem.” Then Judge Kimba Wood (whose affair the NYT catalogued who was last seen falling on her face in front of her East Side apartment running from photogrpahers. While a sitting federal judge in New York, Wood hired an illegal immigrant as a nanny. And of course, busy having an affair, Wood didn’t think to try to help her nanny get a green card or citizenship, because those issues never come before a federal judge or federal courts. Right now they come before judges who have had no experience litigating in a federal court room vetted by one Monica Goodling who has had no experience litigating in a federal courtroom before being elevated to the highest rungs of the Bush damaged goods DOJ.
OT-
Edwards in SC earlier today, on C-Span now.
Note that the very same sleazeball, Roger Stone, is behind the anti-Hillary Clinton 527 that Digby cited yesterday — the one selling t-shirts.
It was a planned, risky, stepping stone…and she pulled it off perfectly.
You’ve convinced me. President MccInsane, it is. We will just have to learn to love him.
LS at 64 and IRish Jim at 96
thanks for the vibe.
_____________
as for the fight between Hillary and Obama? hey, this ain’t no disco. they can make up later. there will be only one candidate. and right now is just sparring. the knife and broken bottle fight begins after the conventions. Willie Horton? Swift Boats For Truth? Shee-it. Those were toga parties.
i get the feeling that because the pubs candidates seem so contemptable and inept right now some think there will be no contest.
it will be bloody. not pretty. viscious. and outrageous. IF the democrats win there will still be a big price to pay. THEY will make sure of it.
Nope. 100 years in Iraq will not fly.
Yes she did. She used the people of an entire state to advance her personal goals. New Yorkers…glad you help?
I agree completely. Running as the “representative” of your race or subgroup or whatever is the worst form of identity politics…the absolute worst, and highly counter-productive, IMHO.
This ain’t no party
This ain’t no disco
this ain’t no foolin around
Hey Elliott!
We’re in a primary right, so what’s wrong with debating between our choices? Why would supporting Obama or Edwards mean a CrazyTrain McCain Presidency?
I think either of those two could clean his clock in the General.
St John is sure running as the rep of his.
Then I have to ask – Women’s reproductive freedom, a fiscal policy that doesn’t continue the strangulation, any chance of some decent environmental stewardship, etc.
I’m not willing to give those up. And there is a huge difference here.
This ain’t no foolin around either.
ARgh. cspan 2 came up with Babs Bush!
Now I’m ticked again. Cspan table lists polls going up but the poll dates are reversed, which looks like the numbers are going down. Hey it goes from left to right here in america. sheesh.
If Hill had divorced Bill, she wouldn’t now be in position to become the first woman prez in my opinion.
I have listened to some of the debates. I think she’s damned smart, competent, and VERY practical. She may be the best person for the job- although she’ll carry baggage throughout her terms if elected.
People who actually get elected to the presidency usually soft pedal their “ideology” and stick to the middle of the road. It’s how the horrific Bush managed to stay in contention in 2000. He did his damnest to appear to be a “centerist” and enough people bought the act to give him a chance to steal the election.
Any dem who actually gets elected will do it by appearing to be a centerist—AS WILL ANY GOOPER!
D’oh!
None of the candidates is without sausage on their hands, and the Clintons certainly do have their unattractive side. But they did not lie us into a war, abolish habeas corpus, and permit torture of illegally held captives. We must get the repub cartel out of office, and the only way to do it is to vote for the candidate of the only other viable party.
None of the candidates is without sausage on their hands
Nice, a bunch o’ weenies!
I think you misunderstand me. My point is that I frequently hear the welfare bill ebing cited as the reason why many progressives don’t like her. But the ones I hear complaining about it most are the generation of activists older than me and this gets passed down to the generation after me who seem to think that Hillary’s a hard hearted centrist. Neither generation has it right. Those of us political junkies now in our forties who were paying attention at the time saw a President caught between a mean-spirited Congress and an electorate whipped up top a frenzy by the Rush Limbaughs out there. The bill was harshly punitive and was softened by Clinton. It was the best he could do at the time. But there was nothing wrong with asking people to work their way out of poverty. The PROBLEM was that the Republicans wanted them to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and then deny them the boots. That was the cruelty and it should not be laid at the feel of Bill Clinton like it consistently is. But that’s what happens when the historical narrative gets rewritten by people with conflicting interests.
Feeling the need to defend Feingold. I might remind you guys that Feingold is proven to have voted our way. I’m assuming that you’ve checked Edwards record and it’s equal to or better than Feingold’s? Because Feingold says it’s not. I’m assuming you checked his record before you chose to criticize Feingold for betraying Edwards. OTOH, if Edwards is purporting to be a person “who agrees with many of Feingold’s positions,” but didn’t vote those positions when he had the opportunity, nay, the responsibility to do so, who’s the traitor? (And I’m an Edwards supporter!) BTW, I read somewhere that Feingold has gotten a divorce within the last few years, so that may have something to do with his decision not to run. My personal opinion is that the poor support he got from his colleagues when he suggested censure might also have borne upon his decision not to run.
A vote for Clinton is a vote to insure the Republicans come out in force to drive you crazy for another four years. They hate her and will mobilize against her in numbers that will set records forever.
It was a planned, risky, stepping stone…and she pulled it off perfectly.
Everyone but everyone in New York knew this was exactly what she was doing. But hey still oted for her. Well, considering the choices: first Giuliani before he dropped out, then that twerp Rick Lazio, and a hapless and clueless Westerchester County prosecutor for re-election in 2004 (her name escapes me at the moment–help anyone?)
I totally agree.
Bill was the first to use renditions as far we we know (others may have earlier but it hasn’t surfaced).
Hillary has refused to guarantee no use of torture and voted for the lie of the war and her campaign refuses to answer the questions about residual troops in Iraq.
again, let’s be eyes open … you can argue that we need to vote for her but I don’t think we should ignore what we are voting for at the same time.
He who wins gets to write the history and the Repubs will be writing hate screeds against the Clintons 100 years from now.
He could have just kept his mouth shut. That’s not so hard to do.
I believe spurious was talking about the general…
Pardon me, ma’am, if I am in error.
Damn good points.
Raven January 25th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
135
This ain’t no party
This ain’t no disco
this ain’t no foolin around
_____________
one of the best bands, evah …….
imo, there’s no comparison between the clinton years and the bush years – but i think you are going overboard.
plenty of issues with truth and lies wrt attacks on the former yugosolavia, sudan and especially iraq.
our extraordinary rendition program was started during the clinton years (including getting people taken to egypt to be tortured and/or executed.
and the precursor to the patriot act was clintons (against objections of the then civil rights loving republicans).
“Why some feminists aren’t supporting Hillary” — how about a post on why some black people aren’t supporting Obama? I don’t understand the point of this post — except to lay out the usual boring argument that Hillary is inherently unlikeable. I thought this post was incredibly sexist, slanted, and harped on the usual sterotypes about women and men. I’m sure Obama and Edwards have thrown some people under the bus too. So what.
And the marriages of ordinary people never resemble mergers? Marriage is about lot of things, some sexual and emotional, but others economic, not least of all the matter of raising kids.
Jeanine Pirro, that’s her name…
Women, just like men, occupy the political spectrum from the left (Boxer) to the right (Hutchinson, Dole). No progressive in their right mind would vote for Kay or Liddy, ladies though they be.
And therein lies progressive discomfort with Hillary. Given her choice to work for a union-busting law firm (and there must be fire under that smoke, given the folks she hires), passively sit on the board of a union-busting company and accept Murdoch/pharma/insurance $$$, exactly why SHOULD we support her?
If things were going well for working America and the Constitution were intact, I’d be more liable to take a flier on her.
As things stand – NOT!
This is not an accurate reflection of what went down .. Clinton specifically ran on his “Third Way” anti-progressive approach. He was not a progressive forced by an evil republican congress to move away from his progressive beliefs but an advocate of moving to the right in order to win Southern votes.
And his actions – such as the sanctions on Iraq and the result (500,000 dead children which his sec of state Albright said “the price is worth it”) were despicable.
I think what Russ said about Edwards is basically correct…In the “big picture” it didn’t make much sense for him to say it. There must be a “back story” in there somewhere.
Pirro?
Well, then we may have to get behind someone who will fight like Kerry DIDN’T. We would be dissing her if she were not “In it to win it”. I’m with RWCole @142.
bonkers January 25th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
137
In response to ReneND @ 130
We’re in a primary right, so what’s wrong with debating between our choices? Why would supporting Obama or Edwards mean a CrazyTrain McCain Presidency?
I think either of those two could clean his clock in the General.
GET JOHN EDWARDS TO DENVER! (bumper sticker)
give John some green love.
amen.
yep, women are people too.
You may very well be right! That may be what held the marriage together; a pact to take turns becoming President.
Whatever, I plan on voting for the Democratic Nominee, whoever that is.
Do you think the Clintons voted for the Iraq War without even reading the NIE? Did the Clintons bomb innocent civilaians in Belgrade? Did the Clintons waste our time with the personal agenda issues in the Oval Office? Come on, it will be more of the same. Face up to it. I would place a bet that McCain will make better Supreme Court appointments than the Clintons. Just a bet.
And what were the qualifications of Zoe Baird to be AG? Her experience at an insurance company. I would rather be fighting McCain on the reproductive freedom issues than counting on the Clintons to defend them.
PetePierce @ 148 done gone!
There’s an E.J. Dionne refresher on this in today’s Post. It was jarring to hear the quote about “the brain-dead politics of both parties”. Clinton, God love him for all his qualities of intellect and charisma, is an opportunistic panderer to plutocrats.
Siun, you make a such a good point about expectations from or for our candidates.
One thing I do want is leadership.
Very interesting even if it just a rumor.
“McCain would make better supreme court appointments than the Clintons”
You must be a gooper eh?
Clinton has no more interest in being the feminist candidate than Obama has in being the black candidate.
If either was commonly perceived to be so, their chance of getting the nomination or elected would be significantly diminished.
You can’t be serious!
It’s the backstory that worries me. Who do you trust more, Feingold or Edwards? Scary, isn’t it?
Agree. I just meant that McCain’s position on troop deployment is not centrist, although some of his other positions are. I think the 100 year thingy will be repeated and repeated, and turn off the 70% of America that is against the war…plus, he has other problems.
McCain is one of the more conservative members of the senate and always has been- he’s “pro life” and would give us justices indistinguishable from Thomas and Scalia…
Who do you like? Scalia or Ginsburg?
Please feel free to write that one… FWIW, I don’t think Jane and/or Christy, and all the other (and great) women posters at FDL would allow a sexist post on this site…
yes, and that makes me wonder what it is.
i’d be more ready to criticize feingold if he was in the habit of doing this kind of thing… but it’s the first time i can think of. and that means i don’t dismiss it entirely as petty. it may very well be… but imo, feingold has earned the right to be taken seriously.
Raven January 25th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
138
In response to Biodun @ 134
St John is sure running as the rep of his.
__________________
some insightful folks (the TPM guy among others) think St. John is going to run into tough sledding. the primaries that don’t allow unregistered voters (i.e. you have to be registered Republican to vote for the Repub) will stop McCain in his tracks. the Mittster looks “good” in Florida and Super Tuesday brings up a lot of those “closed” primaries …..
I suspect there is a lot of stuff going on in the background..ie the rumored one on one with Hill and Edwards following the debate.
Careful, McCain is no Bush and Eisenhower was no Bush and McCain is no Nixon. And Eisenhower appointed Earl Warren. So it’s a bet.
Perhaps there is no difference between Scalia and Ginsburg?
I think my head just did a 360.
Well yeah, I take that as a given.
Men are always all over the place in which candidates they support. Why should the ladies be any different?
Which is why I think bullshit when the argument is put forward that Hillary should get special consideration from women voters.
Women are going to vote all over the place just like us guys, and that works for me.
Jeanine Piro, former Westchester Co DA state of NY, married to a corrupt business man who torpedo’d her career through his shenanigans.
Just a bit of mud on both their shoes.
I had Scalia as a professor in law school. I did not like him then or now. I do not like Ginsberg. I think she is incompetent.
And see diogenes @ 161…
It’s a bet that in principle can never be settled. If one is elected, we’ll never know what the other would have done. What’s McCain’s position on Roe/Wade?
Speaking for myself only of course, I view Senator Clinton, good or not so much, on the senator’s record, business and political connections and derivations of political financing.
Raven January 25th, 2008 at 1:18 pm
145
None of the candidates is without sausage on their hands
Nice, a bunch o’ weenies!
i’ll have a vodka maritini with mine ….
Agree in principle… But it’s the views of judges he would nominate that I’m more concerned about.
Well with all the “qualified” people that BushCo has had in the last eight years (Rumsfeld, Cheney, Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Paul Wolfowitz, etc) I might be willing to take a chance on some Zoe Baird types.
Thanks. See my 160…
why?
He’s against it of course.
PetePierce January 25th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
148
In response to spurious @ 144
We must get the repub cartel out of office, and the only way to do it is to vote for the candidate of the only other viable party.
A vote for Clinton is a vote to insure the Republicans come out in force to drive you crazy for another four years. They hate her and will mobilize against her in numbers that will set records forever.
___________________________
this is a hypothetical. i am not afraid of it. i think you’re wrong.
and right here, right now, that is a PRIME consideration.
crucial.
Then don’t take your chances on George Tenet, appointed by the Clintons. Please, the Clintons are no damn good and that is the sad truth.
Even if he feels the need to warn other progressives that what they see may not be what they’ll get? What if…
The thing I like so much about Obama and Clinton is how these two are always talking straight to us. These characters have amply demonstrated that bullshit is not gender specific.
I think there must be a “troll bank”. Anytime there is a contentious thread, especially yesterday with the FISA thread, I seem to see new screen names saying shit like “If the Dems don’t do this or that I won’t vote..blah..blah”..If Hillary is the nominee we are better off with McCain or I’ll vote Green..blah..blah..
What was Eisenhower’s position on civil rights and the rights of criminal defendants when he appointed Ear Warren?
is that after he was for it?
Well could be, I don’t know- it does have that odor about it.
Most politely…
So if Senator Clinton gains her parties nomination, you’re writing in Nader? Really – what’s your choice in that event?
And I don’t give a rats ass what Obama’s or Clinton’s spouses have to say.
158
“Why some feminists aren’t supporting Hillary” — how about a post on why some black people aren’t supporting Obama? I don’t understand the point of this post — except to lay out the usual boring argument that Hillary is inherently unlikeable. I thought this post was incredibly sexist, slanted, and harped on the usual sterotypes about women and men. I’m sure Obama and Edwards have thrown some people under the bus too. So what.
_____________
you may be erudite but i don’t think you read the post very carefully ……..
OK well see rwcole at 142 for more. I’m married and understand the complexities thanks.
what can I do? You tell me. Vote for the Clintons.
We’ll vote for Clinton or Obama if either is the nominee. But we don’t have to like it.
Here Here! I am getting so sick of ‘Hillary Throwdowns’ and ‘Obama can do no wrong’ comments here and on most other progressive blogs. Hillary is MUCH more progressive than Obama.
Thank God for Taylor Marsh.
You didn’t answer my question – why is Ginberg incompetent?
Not the way *I* remember it. I remember he started his first term really going gangbusters and breaking the mold in so many areas. He really meant it when he said he was going to hire a diverse cabinet. He picked the best people for the positions. Let’s think about what an inspired choice Lani Guinier really was, not just because of her gender or race but because of her ideas on voting. He was serious about rolling back tax cuts.
As for being business friendly, there’s nothing wrong with that as long as regulations keep everyone playing fairly. And when it comes to the Republican Congress, there was no choice but to try to outsmart them. You can call it Third Way or triangulation or whatever. But you can’t call Clinton cruel or heartless. He made mistakes, yes. The Rwanda genocide was a mistake. Were Iraqi sanctions a mistake? I think it depends on who you feel is responsible for starving Iraqi children. One could argue that Saddam misappropriated money that should have gone to his people. Maybe we should have sent more humanitarian aid but that would have taken the sting out of the sanctions since it certainly wouldn’t have punished Saddam for his bad behavior. Maybe the strategy was to make the population so desperate that they would overthrow Saddam themselves. But as Jefferson said in the Declaration of Independence, while injuries are sufferable, a people will endure a lot of suffering. I was certainly aware of the dilemma but I don’t know how much culpability I should assign to each of the players: the UN, Iraq, Saddam or Clinton. But why lay it all at Clinton’s feet? He didn’t create these condidtions. He inherited them. This is the part that confuses me. What would you have had him do differently?
George Tenet was crammed down Clinton’s throat as the only person the then Rethug controlled Senate was willing to confirm. You do remember that I assume? That Clinton actually operated with a Congress not only willing but eager to provide “oversight” and micro-manage just about every move he made? I realize, that many folks might have forgotten what it was like in the late ’90s what with the antics of the 107th-110th Congresses, but the ‘thugs were quite desirious of stepping on any action taken by the Clinton admin to attempt to do something beneficial. Like take out Osama. I think they called it “wagging the dog”
Right. So we duke it out in civil fashion here and elsewhere for a few months, and we eventually decide that the Republic comes before our hatreds and detestations.
Ann in AZ January 25th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
178
In response to Steve-AR @ 163
It’s the backstory that worries me. Who do you trust more, Feingold or Edwards? Scary, isn’t it?
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don’t trust politicians. trust your dog.
This site does not elevate any particular candidate. We just discuss issues and mention who we support sometimes…and even that changes day to day. Just sayin’.
IIRC, Eisenhower was quite surprised at Earl Warren and the rulings of the Warren court. One of the reasons the Rs have been so het up about “vetting” their Supreme court nominees, they didn’t like the Warren court rulings or the judicial rulings of various other R nominees over the years.
And presumably, Tenet was on board when the CLINTON ADMINISTRATION foiled the Millennium plot…
yes. but please let me figure that just before the election.
otherwise i’m going to be miserable for months (and this isn’t about clinton. i’m not a fan of obama either).
Agree completely.
I am so fed up with some of my friends saying they will or won’t vote for a candidate because of their ethnicity or gender.
Same here. I was soooooo offended by Mitt’s remark about “I just can’t imagine Bill Clinton in the WH with nothing to do. I don’t think America can imagine it.”
When were we concerned with what the spouses will be doing? Uh, Mrs. Mitt, how will you fill your days?
Now that there was some real sexism for those looking for it here.
We’ll take Edwards. ;0)
Steve – I don’t consider new visitors trolls. Perhaps the “contentious post” simply energized them enough to speak up.
Let’s engage on the issues and opinions …
Just wait until McCain gets nominated and chooses Lieberman as his running mate….Yeeehaaaawwww!!!!
Yes, thanks!
kiddo – I’m certain that you and Lahoma aren’t the only Progressives in your state… Where do you go for friendly political chats?
Here’s the thing. Feminists (myself included) go over incredible nuances with respect to Clinton, and I understand that. Indeed, I’m also disappointed with her center-to-right movement myself.
But, if she becomes president, it will still be hugely significant for women, because the non-feminist crowd is remarkably NON-nuanced in these matters; being primarily EEEUUUWWWW COOOOOOTIES and such. So in terms of breaking down the glass ceiling, she will do that simply because she is a woman.
Whether I personally support her or not is irrelevant to that above observation. Whether it’s reason enough to support her despite nuanced objections, is another discussion as well.
kiddo January 25th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
214
We’ll vote for Clinton or Obama if either is the nominee. But we don’t have to like it.
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it’s mornin’ in America……
smelllll the sausage …….
There was no cram down. The Clintons first appointed Tony Lake who blew it. Do not blame that on on the Repubs. Lake acted like an airball at his confirmation hearing. Tenet was appointed as a staffer in the Clinton White House from the Senate Intelligence Committee and was known only as a staffer with a kiss ass mentality. The Clintons did not have to go with the likes of Tenet who sold himself as being good with Senate Republicans. In fact, anybody but Tenet and he should not have been appointed to his position in the White House. The Clintons were just trying to go down the middle of the road with Tenet and as we know he is a carwreck, no pun intended.
and when was the last time anyone saw Laura out opening a library or making a speech? the first lady has all but disappeared. Bill can mow the lawn for all I care.
Ike was NEVER a conservative, when he ran for president it took him a long time to decide which party to sign up with. He was in agreement with much of FDR’s program.
I wasn’t aware the Feingold went after Edwards again yesterday. This is really odd. What he says is true, Edwards campaigned as a no PAC money “new” politician for the Senate and then voted the other way on major issues. He has given a string of ” I am sorry for my vote” statements. I think Edwards has changed since ‘05..Feingold has a different opinion..I wonder why?
I consider this new visitor a “concern troll”
can you imagine:?
“I would rather duke it out with mccain then wonder about clinton”
or whatever
pretty rediculous and an obvious concern troll as far as I am concerned
Speaking for myself, I just don’t see why we are taking down (ANY) of our own candidates. Isn’t that a Republicans job. Whoever the chosen candidate from our side will need $$ and boots on the ground. There is a wide audience here besides just commenters. Hope they don’t stay home.
She cannot write clearly and she is completely unconvincing. Listen to her questions at oral argument on the Gore case. She sounded like a first year civil court judge in the Bronx.
but politicians don’t try and hump my leg…
haven’t done this for a while, but convention prods me to announce a new thread upstairs.
Obviously we will have to disagree with this one. If Tenet were such a disaster, how come he was still trying to get the Bushco to pay attention to Osama before 9/10? Was he perfect? No. But right now, I do think I find someone with Tenet’s background as preferable to folks like Porter Goss or Mike McConnell or Hadyn who we’ve been inflicted with since Tenet. Speaking of disastrous DCI/DNI’s
Tulsa and Tahlequah. Seriously. Hope you’re having a good day! ;0)
I don’t either..but new people with a “concern toll” message.. I am not so sure.
Why? Perhaps because she’s setting feminism back. Her 35 years of “experience” are partly her own story, but the bulk of it has been utterly dependent on the more politically talented husband. The ONLY times I’ve liked her are the very rare instances when a “voice” peeps through; most interested of all was correspondence from when she was in college. To have “found her own voice” in New Hampshire seems, since then, to have simply meant to hide, again, behind her husband and wage an attack campaign that is out of the Karl Rove notebook as she did it. Leaving aside the machiavellian race-baiting she has employed in her campaign since at least Billy Shaheen, she also didn’t hesitate to distribute false and outrageous lies about Obama’s position and votes on choice. Worst of all, in her calculated zeal to appear tough (in the worst, phallocentric sense of the word), she voted to authorize force for the War in Iraq at a time when all of us, every last one, knew we were being lied to and knew it was the wrong thing to do. And unlike a real woman, she has never taken responsibility for that. Inexcusable, unfeminist, and not worthy of our votes. That’s why!
Politicians would hump your leg if they figured they’d get a vote out of it- but not with the press around.
I think I got my foot in it. I’m not defending the Clintons, and am planning to vote for Edwards in the primary. But if Clinton winds up the candidate in the general, I just hope she is electabable.
Biodun, what a wonderful discussion you started! Thank you.
Do differently? allow essential medical supplies into Iraq rather than continuing the exclusion of them as potential weapons for a start.
I’d suggest reading someone like Robert Fisk’s reporting on the sanctions in his Great War of Civilization for a clear view of what was done and by who.
Clinton was not forced to his “Third Way” – he ran specifically on the platform of instituting his “Third Way” that was based on triangulation. Many of us activist progressives watched in horror.
This seems like an unfounded assertion and a caricature of “feminists”:
“All these reasons more or less span the spectrum of feminist reaction to Hillary Clinton, but perhaps her decision to stay with her husband during the Monica Lewinsky scandal seems to be at the core of why she’s highly suspect to feminists.”
People do criticize Hillary for staying with Bill. I don’t. It’s a private matter. To assume she chose to stay with him as political strategy, you have to think very little of her already and also you probably know very little about marriage.
It may be worth noting that since we started registration, some screen names have changed.
The mods are very aware of who is new and who isn’t…as well as when the “t” word may apply.
I have to agree but that is what the Clintons are counting on so they can run their bottom fishing, lower the bar campaign, win at all costs. We will see the ” fairy tale” accusation played by the Repubs over and over if Obama gets the nomination. No such material has been fed to the Repubs by Obama. Enough.
I’d rather welcome the newcomer and have a lively debate …
I’m not voting for Hillary for these reasons:
She’s a Clinton (sick and tired of a Clinton or a Bush in the White House)
She voted for the Iraq invasion/occupation
She voted for the Patriot Act
She’s funded the war
Loves those Bush tax cuts
I don’t want more of the same! Even Edwards isn’t doing it for me either nor Obama.
hear hear! great post and great discussion … Thanks Biodun!
congrats on the z, p.
Sorry I came late to this party and haven’t time to read all the replies.
Jeeze, how many goddamn tests does Hillary have to pass because she is a woman?
So she didn’t walk out on her cheating husband? So goddamn what? How many males would have to justify not walking on a cheating wife?
So maybe she’s not a good enough sister. What’s that test for men look like?
Somebody count the extra tests for females mentioned in this thread (as well as elsewhere). I can’t, I’m afraid I might hurt my computer.
Joel Mael
I’ll drink to that!
that one is easy. they aren’t MY candidates.
Truer words were never spoken:
Clinton has no more interest in being the feminist candidate than Obama has in being the black candidate.
If either was commonly perceived to be so, their chance of getting the nomination or elected would be significantly diminished.
Each of those candidates has a little window in which they can operate effectively and still get the nomination. Senator Clinton has to be strong, but not shrill, demanding, but not domineering, agressive, but not a bitch. A little window. All things positive in men, but seen as deficits in women. Senator Obama has to be perceived as Shelby Steele puts it, a bargainer so that he doesn’t come off as black and hence threating to white Americans. A little window.
For some of the feminists to get cranked up about Senator Clinton not being in the forefront now about womens issues is bs. First let her get elected, then watch.
Sometimes I believe at times women can be too critical and competitive with each other.
Years ago I worked in this large office with pretty much the vast majority being women. I was there for quite a while and had been witness to some pretty impressive warring factions between groups of basically women. It was just tragic to see people treat each other in such a manner.
Sad to say, sometimes the success of one woman will bring out the worse in another in the form of just pettiness and focusing on the potential weaknesses of that woman.
We need to get pass this….
late to this party.
look, men don’t feel they have to vote for man! so why should women feel obliged to vote for a woman?
I hope people choose on the basis of candidate that fits their own personal preferences.
Faye Wattleton supports Clinton
I think I would take the work she had done and stack up against the naysayers
To all you alienated feminists who have been disappointed with your lives, don’t blame Hillary Clinton for succeeding with her life and don’t criticize personal decisions you know nothing about. If you really want to do feminism a favor, either stuff it, or support the woman who will bring your dreams closer to your reality than any belly aching on your part will ever do.
I’m late too, Thera
I think Hilary would make a competent president. That said, however, 2008 will be one of the most pivotal election years in American history. Very likely as much so as was 1860, because I believe there is a strong likelihood that if any of the main GOP candidates out there is elected our democracy and freedoms may well be gutted by the time he leaves office. (McCain might be an exception, but it’s not worth the risk, especially considering his questionable health.) Therefore I believe it is urgent that the Dems nominate the most electable candidate they can, and that person is neither Hilary nor Obama. It is John Edwards.
Its a rumor by the Robert Novack……. trying to get “unity” behind the gop user-friendly hillary.
Great post Biodun :-) Soooooooooo wish we’d have been seeing these kinds of posts 6 months ago when to even mention you thought hillary was a fraud, was to have the big “misogynist/sexist” shut up stick come down on you. Not much fun.
I really think the Democratic Governor of John McCain’s red, red state Janet Napolitano’s endorsement of Obama knocked that crazy stick out of many peoples’ hands. Thank you Janet!
… And Thank you, Biodun! :-)
Also, Hillary’s “centrist” positions are “centrist” only by the standards which existed during the Clinton I presidency. The bush II presidency moved too far to the right, and drug the center along with it. So, Clinton II’s “centrist” positions are waaaaaaay right now. The only thing keeping her anchored to the left at this point is John Edwards’ progressive left positions and attitude. Its all relative. As soon as you remove him from the Democratic field, you will have whiplash how fast we end up with the same policies the good Senators have capitulated on for these last 7 years.
Take a look at john mccain’s site….. he’s already running against her. That’s what this “unity” talk right now is doing. No one should have ever pledged to the DNC that they “would support the candidate” now or before the first vote was cast. That answer should always be….. “depends on the candidate”. The DNC/Media/Status quo had driven this entire hillary “first woman”/Obama “first black” meme as a means to continue the staus quo of which they are part of. No question.
For some reason, the DNC still feels the need to play along within the republican imperial dynasty construct. That’s why we lose. Democrats can never be better republicans…… but we can be the BEST for the country as Democrats. This is why Hillary will lose in the general. She’s not Democrat enough to bring this one home. Its a stupid stupid mistake we’re making here.
I will not vote for a republican. I’m a democrat. The DNC better get that message and stop marketing more of the same. How many years did we spend banging on those stupid pubbies for giving us bush II?
Why in hell would WE then give them Clinton II? It’s what they want. Same as osama bin laden wanted us to alter the course of our country and suck our economy dry. You never give the enemy what they want. Ever.
Biodun, excellent post that has generated interesting discussion.
But (isn’t there always a but), I must admit that I take as somewhat offensive, your referring to Hilary as “Billary”. That in of itself is a “caricature” of feminism when you feel you have to somehow blend two different people, one male, the other female into one.
Feminism is one issue among many, and if Hilary presented herself as predominently a feminist, she would be be history as a candidate in a heartbeat.
IMHO, feminism should have nothing to do with it.
At issue is who will be the best President of the United States and who will select the next members of the Supreme Court. That should be foremost in our minds. It sure is in mine.
Does Faye Wattleton of all f***ing people, this champion advocate for Planned Parenthood, and all the other ‘women’ who support Hillary know that their ‘heroine’ joined with all of the Republicans to vote against her own colleague Senator Diane Feinstein and the majority of Democrats including Obama, and the all of the humanitarian organizations including the Red Cross, when they all tried to stop the use of cluster bombs on innocent civilians??
Do those women know how those little child maiming flesh burning cluster bomblets work? They look like toys and stay in the soil for decades. The bomblets don’t always kill right away -they usually just blow off legs and hands and arms.
Does Faye give a shit about other womens health, about the rights of other women F*** no. All they’re out for is a piece of Hillary’s fat ass pie.
I hop someone blares to the SC voters how while Bill was throwing shit at Obama Hillary ran to the Abyssininian church in New York to get the Pastor’s ‘endorsement’.
The news just reported that the Abyssinian ‘Pastor’ had already received over $1,000,000 in earmarks from Clinton and Wrangell.
She’s not getting votes because she’ll do a good job. She’s just another greedy self indulgent white money hungry spotlight loving whore who appeals to those like her.
(no dis to real whore’s)
I’ll stab myself in the leg with a fork before I would ever vote for such a sell out of a ’sister’.
wow
according to some just because Faye Wattleton a woman with an great reputation who has accomplished great things and is well respected
is a sellout just because she doesn’t agree with you
I think based on her experiences and accomplishments I respect her choices
I guess you think Delores Huerta is sellout also
nice respect for woman and their right to make choices
SHORTER FEMINISTS: ‘the woman candidate isn’t feminist enough for me so I’m OK if a man is elected.’
Sure would have been nice to hear: ‘I can’t support HRC because I don’t like her policies’. Not a bunch convoluted, self-absorbed gibberish most likely arising out of jealousy.
I’d love for a minority or a woman to be president, but first they need to have the best policies. Unfortunately this round, that’s neither Obama or Clinton – a couple of inside pandering corportists.
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I think that Feingold simply doesn’t TRUST Edwards. I thibnk he wondered where this “progressive” version of Edwards was when he needed his support in the Senate. I think Feingold must be thinking…”this guy had all the background features to be my ally back in 2000…son of a mill-worker, a torts lawyer who took on major corporations in liability suits, etc. I think that Feingold simply wonders about what it may be that has led to Edwards reversals on so many issues.
http://mydd.com/story/2008/1/18/02424/5737
Has Edwards changed his “spots”? Has his career and his work accomplishments in substance since leaving the Senate demonstrated a sea-change in position? Certainly Edwards did great things in supporting a Foundation that provided scholarships to underprivileged Carolinans wanting to attend UNC. Since he’s left the Senate, he’s stumped about how Congress should create tuition waivers to those students who do Vista-like volunteer work.
But then again he has worked as a corporate lawyer for a major hedge fund (Fortress Investment Group), and has investments in many of their sub-prime and off-shore investment groups.
Perhaps that’s why Russ considers Edwards more than a bit of an enigma. And Russ isn’t blithely throwing his support to Hillary or Obama, either.
I’m talking about the general mam. What else would I be referring to–crossover votes? It’s pretty hard to respond when 95% of my posts are inappropritately blocked. FDL has a paranoid nerve plexus when it comes to the Clintons. They don’t want any perjorative facts up and if they know you’re not a Clinton worshipper they block you or delay you way past EPUville.
I would have thought they had more tolerance since there are so many headlines purporting to be fighting to save the constitution that’s being shredded on Monday 28th in the Seante. Guess not.
I think the last viable woman to run for office was Libby Dole and she did not run as though she had to be a guy. And we know what happened there.
I think Feingold is suspicious, but I don’t know if even knows Edwards. Did they mix in the Senate?
Feingold has a lot of things to offer to the progressive wing, and he has made some principled stands—but I don’t exactly trust him either. He does not have the wherewithal to gather a regional or national constituency. Edwards did and so he does. Feingold airing his suspicions loudly strikes me mostly as jealousy, not good judgement.
And as to Hillary and feminists: it seems to me that many women simply do not think Hillary is much of a feminist after putting up with Bill. I know that sounds shallow, but I have met a number of women who seem to come down on her for being steadfast and not vindictive or something of a kind where Bill is concerned. When they see her plainly relying on him now, it isn’t viewed as “just desserts” or “penance”, but “necessary evil”. But he is still “necessary’, and that bugs people.
I am almost Hillary’s age and have been a firm supporter of feminism going on four decades. Marriage relationships are personal and her decision was hers alone. Personally, since she had the financial resourses to care for herself and her daughter, I can’t imagine being able to be in the same room with Bill once his affairs were known to her. He obviously does not respect her or women in general. I suspect ambition is her ddriving force behind all her decisions. I have been disgusted by her recent campaign methods and have no respect for her or Bill. I voted for him twice, but knowing what I now know would like to see both of them fade out of politics. I am a life long Democrat that has become an “anybody by Hillary” voter. I won’t vote for her under any circumstances. The fact that she is a women is unimportant to this race. Integrity and judgment are what counts.
The notion that women vote in a monolithic block is ridiculous. We don’t do anything monolithically. I’ve never voted because of someone’s genitals in my life. Hillary thought she ‘had it in the bag’ with women. She doesn’t. If you look at her professional life, everything she’s ever done is BECAUSE OF Bill. He’s been her ‘leg up’. I find her false and pandering. I also find her to be a big whining baby when not given what she wants or expects. I like the baseball analogy as its applied to Hillary: she arrived on third base and spends most of her life bragging how she hit a triple. She’s had her 15 minutes in the sun. I wouldn’t vote for Hillary, if she were the only one running.
I’m a feminist and not a Hillary supporter. My problem with Hillary has nothing to do with her personal choices in her life. I think it’s her business how she handled the Bill thing and none of my business.
My problem with Hillary concerns her strong link with corporate America. I think she will sell us out in a heartbeat for their money. I don’t think she will move the ball forward very much because her primary interest is her not the American people. If she can benefit she will support issues that help women & minorities but if it doesn’t benefit her I don’t think she will spend much political capital to fight.
This campaign really reinforced my already negative opinions about how she & Bill operate. They’ve had their supporters on TV knee capping Edwards and the race vs. gender war that I believe they started is tearing our Party apart. And both the Clinton & Obama campaigns don’t seem to care what they are doing to the Party unless it threatens their chances to win.
Another thing that bothers me about Hillary is the statement she made about seating the Michigan & Florida delegates. I think the time for supporting the voters was when it was first discussed. I think all the candidates should have pushed back against not seating the delegates but they didn’t. And now Clinton is trying to have it both ways. I think it shows a lack of integrity to try to capitalize on this now. And make no mistake, that is exactly what she is doing. She doesn’t give a hoot about those voters, she only cares that she gets the delegates. I’m actually very suspicious that this might have been the plan all along. And that’s another problem, I don’t want to be that suspicious of our nominee. I think we should all be skeptical of any nominee but not suspicious.