stand and be counted, HRC and BO!

Zed

who let the dogs out?

Bush wearing his clown face. zed?

Great post Jane.

Hit us with your best shot, Mr. 375 Lies Bush. As if anyone believes anything you have to say.

I wish Dems knew in their hearts that we know he’s full of poo poo. Call his stupid blustering bluff.

Ineptocrats.

You forget to mention how Harry is going to talk all tough while he rolls over and soils on himself.

Well, they f’d Whithouse, and he went batshit crazy this morning…ending with reading the remarks he was going to end with had he been able to present his amendment with Specter, touting how wonderful the Senate process is….then, his last words were something like “I’m left with the taste of ashes in my mouth” referring to the way the Republicans are obstructing…He was really freaking livid. There must be a clip of it somewhere. It seemed like a turning point to me….like he actually woke up and smelled the corrupt coffee…

I hope Kathleen Sebelius is ready with Hugh’s list.

If Bush starts to deride the Democrats during the state of the Union can some Democrats start heckling him?

If dems lose by two votes and those two are not present- that would be very not cool..

is it possible that

a) one of the amendments is considered a poison pill by cheney?
b) the republicans have done whip count and don’t think they have a majority of the votes to vote it down in an “upperdown” vote?
and
c) don’t want to have to actually filibuster that one amendment, so that they can block it with 41 votes?

this the best plan to avoid that senario?

kiddo January 25th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
214
We’ll vote for Clinton or Obama if either is the nominee. But we don’t have to like it.

from down below. comment got stuck in my paste box. thought it was appropriate.

yea rah jane! still laughing about your Matt Bai take-down.

as for your dogs, dosido, trust them, not Hillary and Obama. and let’s see how many of those Republican congresscritters show up with their “I’m a Bush Republican” buttons on.

I don’t know that I could say I have a lot of confidence in the leadsership of my party (Dems).

Let’s hope KO has it for Monday. I want a frigging bloodbath over this. I want guys who fight. No more Harry George McClellan I need more soldiers Reid to fight this civil war.

Fight!

The only thing you are missing Jane, is that the repugs could care less about a fisa law or any other law. They will just break it & eaves drop illegally as they have been doing prior to Sept 11, 2000. They have no respect for the law. They believe they are the elites and above all laws.

This action by them is just to make the Dems look weak on terra. It is 100% politically motivated.

oops again. My reply was for LS re whitehouse.

“Am I missing anything?”

…um, the words “the fix is in”, perhaps?

I don’t trust Reid AT ALL, any more.

wish Edwards would go to the Senate on Monday, anyway, if only to yell about this on the Senate steps.

State of the Union?

Corporate Sovereignty.

They DO care quite a bit about protecting teleco.

Jane and Glenn asked John Edwards to challenge HRC and BO to stand up on FISA, and he did so. (see www.johnedwards.com for his statement) They still aren’t standing up.
How come we haven’t given a resounding YES to John Edwards yet??

just askin…

“Republicans decided that wasn’t enough. They decided they would filibuster the “meaningless tweaks” just to humiliate the Democrats even further, then filed for cloture on the Intelligence Committee bill and scheduled the vote right before the State of the Union address”

I don’t understand much about the senate- how the hell do the goopers dictate the schedule for a bill- thought that was up to the dems?

That’s why this ‘bipartisan’ bushwa is just a load of hooey. ‘Bipartisan’ means rolling over and giving Bush everything he wants to avoid looking ‘weak on terror’, which makes Dems look weak. To claim that both parties are guilty of partisanship is a huge lie. That would mean that Dems were actually standing up for their own principles and ideals. Both parties are not equally guilty. I’d give anything to see the Dems be partisan for once.

I have to agree. I think the whole FISA thing is about Unitary Executive authority. The Pukes and the Admin. don’t give a shizzola about Telcos or anyone else.

Thanks Jane for your post. This explains why Wolfowitz is back in the Bush Regime! There’s gonna be an attack (Rummy, who still has a desk as the Pentagon last I knew) on our country and ole Bush will say it’s the Democrat’s fault for not pushing through HIS FISA bill. *rolling eyes*

As the new International Security guy, Wolfowitz will say after the attack, “Well, had we been able to do surveillance without a warrant and not wait 3 days, we would have been able to intercept this attack!”. Or something like that.

Spit.

Whether Obama or Clinton are there is not going to affect the outcome. McCain is a different matter. The outcome is based on what eleven Bush/Dogs will do. We need 3-4 to change sides and vote against cloture. The fact that Jello Jay has jumped ship is a huge help. 60 is the magic number, not 41.

And that for National Security purposes…Bushco will rule for life.

The Democrats either swallow the Intel bill whole or George Bush gets up there on Monday night and screams about how the Democrats are letting the terrorists win.

three words;

block and parry

this is an INCREDIBLE opportunity for the democrats to PUNISH the president

punish him for everything he says, for claiming the fisa bill he wants protects us, punish him for allowing the terrorists to win, punish him for reneging on his oath of office, on the bible and to the god he prays

we will punish him for even making believe he wants a fisa bill “to protect us” “to fight terrorism”, we will point out;

” all the president and his inept vice president have done, at each and every waking opportunity is to give the terrorists what they want, what they planned from the start and fulfilled their fondest wet dream, he’s given them every victory and we will not allow them another victory by passing the presidents surrender to the terrorists”

now, I wrote that in a hurry and in the heat of anger but these friggin democrats have SOME KIND OF NERVE doing ANYTHING this president asks for

all this president wants is to line his pockets, his friedns pockets and give everyone get out of jail tickets

He was on a roll yesterday, too, with the EPA admin. Spitting nails at the Johnson.

This is what I’m going to fax to them. It’s a little too long, but I couldn’t help myself:

Dear Senators:

Monday will be a very important day for the Senate; it’ll be a very important day for the citizens you represent, too. The questions before you involve the gravely important matter of national security, but it also includes consideration of the lofty ideals inherent in our democracy: the rule of law, the separation of powers and how a Presidential over-reach can hold the entire Senate, our Representatives all, hostage to Presidential fiat. Senators Dodd and Feingold and others have already declared on the side of their constituent’s rights as citizens. They are showing the leadership I want to see. I am watching closely and am very proud of their efforts to do what our forefathers expected them to do, fight for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. We look to such men of vision to defend against, not just the physical fear of terrorism, but also the danger that billows out into our society if we start to surrender our rights to an overly zealous and power happy administration. If we surrender our rights to communicate without the government becoming a third party to every single conversation, business meeting, whatever communications that we have with our fellow citizens, without probable cause and warrants, we will become as totalitarian a society as those we presume to accuse of tyranny. And if we surrender just this part of Amendments One and Four of the Bill of Rights, who will stop the process when we’re asked to surrender our guns (Amendment Two) or our freedom of assembly or when we’re told that we could no longer afford to support “due process” before imprisonment or the prisoner’s right not to testify against himself (Amendment Five) “for some citizens.” Pretty soon the entire Bill of Rights is up for grabs, literally, by the head of state/government.

Monday will be the day when leadership counts, and I want to see who else is ready to stand up for the rule of law? Who is willing to say no to a President who demands retroactive immunity for telecom companies that conspired with agencies of the Administration to infringe the rights of the citizen? Who is willing to require the telecoms to do what every other citizen must do: tell their story to the judge in a duly authorized court? Or they may be imposed upon to talk to a grand jury whose job it is to sort out whether laws were broken. Maybe a prosecutor would offer them immunity if they allocute as to exactly why they chose to collude with the administration to surrender the private information of their customers without permission and why they thought it was legally permissible to do so. All of this is under the purview of the Judicial Branch of our federal government, it is not up to the Legislative Branch anymore, and certainly is not up the Executive Branch.

As Senators, you have taken an oath “to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic,” and to “bear true faith and allegiance to the same.” Monday your country will require you to live up to that oath. Several of you are candidates for President or may be involved in reelection campaigns. Well, now is the time that you can prove whether you have what it takes to be a real leader and whether you can stand up for the high ideals upon which our society was based. Make no mistake, to grant retroactive immunity is to usurp the role of the Judiciary Branch of Government and to conspire with the Executive Branch in doing so to the detriment of your own branch of government. That is not a matter you can rationalize or slip around on. I have no problem with the government wiretapping anyone or everyone, as long as they do it legally with probable cause and a warrant. If you grant immunity to potential lawbreakers because the President tells you that’s what he expects you to do, and the laws that were potentially broken infringed the citizens’ civil rights, then your allegiance was to the President and the telecoms, not to the Constitution or the citizens you represent. Worse yet, voters may perceive this as a capitulation, and attribute your motivations to greed and the deep pockets of the telecoms. Please do not tell me that you are only trying to protect me: if you cannot protect my rights, you are severely lessening the quality of my life and making my life less worth living.

For all of the above reasons, it seems to me that it is obvious that this subject requires much more debate and deliberation. It is incomprehensible and unconscionable to me that an august body such as the Senate would be considering cutting off any further discussion or exchanges of ideas because the President would like to add another feather in his cap prior to his State of the Union Speech or because the Senators have plans to go on vacation. Therefore, I am begging you to vote against closure on Monday. You must stand and be counted to show leadership. Not showing up will not suffice; voting present will not suffice either. I can honestly say that I will not vote for anyone who votes in favor of retroactive immunity for telecoms under any circumstances; nor will I vote for anyone whose actions or inactions were responsible for allowing it to happen and I am far from alone in this sentiment. Those are the political facts. I hope those facts impart the wisdom of a Statesman to you, and tell you resoundingly what you must do. Thank you.

I just called the senate offices of OB and HRC and both said they would oppose cloture on Monday.
I said if they didnt, they would be dead to me and the 4 Demo voters in my household.
Bring the campaign to the Senate and speak against teleco immunity and warrantless taps. Use the campaign megaphone to make clear what BUSHCO is trying to do.
what is there to fear from a president with a 25-20% approval rating?
QAgain, both offices said they support Dodd and oppose cloture.
I did not ask the follow-up question–will they be in the Senate and vote on it?

I hope Kathleen Sebelius is ready with Hugh’s list.

Hugh’s List was updated yesterday, btw

New polls show Clusterfuck’s approval ratings sinking to near record lows……This man is living a dream- becomin a living religious icon–The Burning Bush.

Am I missing anything?

Just the same thing the rest of America is, a functional government.

Zactly, Kay - I about plotzed when I saw that Wolfowitz was back in the saddle. Talk about ‘failing up’ - there’s obviously no failure too low to keep a neocon out of power.

The Democrats either swallow the Intel bill whole or George Bush gets up there on Monday night and screams about how the Democrats are letting the terrorists win.

The same MO has been effective in obtaining the Military Commissions Act, a torture law where torture is illegal but not punishable, and the PAA. Why change the formula, if it’s working?

But waitasec … the DEMs provided the PAA, and that is working today, so it’s not quite true that the DEMs are letting the terrorists win.

Have to disagree with you here. The Repugs DO give a shizzola for the telecoms. It’s the rule of law they disdain.

There vote is not important because they aren’t going to vote for cloture. All of the focus needs to be directed at the Bush Dogs.

called OBama office back and they said NO decision had been made about his being there on Monday.

The Democratic Party is no longer the inclusive party. It’s the collusive party. Two things need badly to be changed. Campaign financing and the hold the two political parties have on this nation. The two political parties, when taken together, are a disgusting, suffocating and oppressive monopoly. I’m so fed up, I could scream.

New polls show Clusterfuck’s approval ratings sinking to near record lows……This man is living a dream- becomin a living religious icon–The Burning Bush.

and the democrats think he can embarrass THEM in the state of the union address?

the only way he can embarrass them is if they vote for that friggin fisa bill

They think they can oppose cloture by just not showing up to vote for it. But if Reid has filed cloture for a 30 day extension, the vote to be taken right after the cloture vote on the Intel bill, then they actually do need to show up and vote. Or so I’m given to understand.

Oh yes, the plot thickens, but the characters are all the same. Tired of the freaking movie!!! LOL

No more Harry George McClellan I need more soldiers Reid to fight this civil war.

Whitehouse to Reid: If you don’t want to use the senate majority, I should like to borrow it for a while.” …

I think the whole FISA thing is about Unitary Executive authority

yes. that and making the dems look bad.

Am I missing anything?

No but the ddems are, backbone.

“The Democrats either swallow the Intel bill whole or George Bush gets up there on Monday night and screams about how the Democrats are letting the terrorists win”.

Why are the Dems still caving to these tactics???? The GOP tried these same tactics in 2006 and look how well it turned out for them.

I just called the senate offices of OB and HRC and both said they would oppose cloture on Monday

If that is the case, it makes no difference if they are there, absent is just as good as a “no” vote.

DOW dumps 170 points….There’s going to be more on people’s minds than FISA during the SOTU shit hole.

Lucy and the ball baby.

I can’t fathom how stupid they are.

-G

Saw that. ;0)

Uh oh. NYT cautiously pessimistic :

It’s OK, it’s the fault of the French.

Damn market collapsing baguette wranglers.

-G

But if Reid has filed cloture for a 30 day extension, the vote to be taken right after the cloture vote on the Intel bill, then they actually do need to show up and vote. Or so I’m given to understand.

that is my understanding as well.

(disclaimer - i’m still trying to figure out how things work in the senate)

They think they can oppose cloture by just not showing up to vote for it. But if Reid has filed cloture for a 30 day extension, the vote to be taken right after the cloture vote on the Intel bill, then they actually do need to show up and vote. Or so I’m given to understand.

If that is true, I sure hope he is telling people what the plan is..Reid ain’t LBJ.

I think the Dems don’t want to be the “do nothing Congress” during this election year to make it so the republic candidates running for president can’t make this an issue.

Let’s not forget, everyone, there is a Democratic response after Bushy’s SOTU speech. Hopefully whoever gives it points out that George Bush is a WATB and will have to go without spying illegally on Americans for awhile!

Poor thing, that ole Georgie.

One would think that presidential candidates who are “statespersons” would always show up to vote. And I don’t mean ‘I vote present’.

But if Reid has filed cloture for a 30 day extension, the vote to be taken right after the cloture vote on the Intel bill, then they actually do need to show up and vote. Or so I’m given to understand.

Reid has in fact filed a cloture motion on his “extend the PAA by 30 days” amendment, and the vote to limit debate on that amendment is indeed scheduled to occur IF (most likely, I say almost certain) the motion to limit debate on Bond/Rockefeller is rejected.

And you are quite correct, when it comes to obtaining cloture, it’s the AYE votes that count. But, if cloture is rejected on the Bond/Rockefeller amendment, you’ll see a swarm of crossovers to extend the PAA, because the alternative is to revert to pre-PAA FISA.

Let’s not forget, everyone, there is a Democratic response after Bushy’s SOTU speech.

whitehouse. please.

do we want a 30-day extension or do we just want to vote on a version consistent with the House version–ie that has no telco immunity and which puts the FISA court back in control of warrants under all circumstances–no warrantless taps on citizens?
are you saying we need the 30-day extension as cover for the charge that we are leaving the US unprotected?
That seems to be buying into the BS from the summer session when they got the 6-month extension.

There’s probably some big fat book that will teach one how the senate works- but there is probably not enough coffee in the world to get one through it awake.

Thanks Jane.

Gov. Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas.

DOW dumps 170 points….There’s going to be more on people’s minds than FISA during the SOTU shit hole.

I suspect that Monday is also going to be bad…Wall Street didn’t think the “good bi-partisan news” was that good and there isn’t any more good news on the way.

whitehouse would rock, but Kathleen Sebelius gets the honor.

Good gawd, he’d be great. Georgie would have the cord pulled on the camera if ole Sheldon was giving one of his scathing speeches!

There’s probably some big fat book that will teach one how the senate works …

Yeah, Riddick’s Rules of Senate Procedure. And you are correct about it being a cure for insomnia. Not only that, but Riddick’s Rules don’t tell the whole story, there are a substantial number of “exceptions” appearing in the Congressional Record.

why i want whitehouse to give the SOTU rebuttal (many of you have probably already seen this youtube of whitehouse’s statement on the senate floor re fisa and paa from december).

Any word who it will be?….That could be the most important one yet…For the Dems to have the last word on Bush is huge.

oh. never mind then.

If you’re in need of a Sen. Whitehouse fix, go to cspan.org and cue-up yesterdays EPA hearing.
Pissed would be putting it mildly.

Personally, I would love it if Kucinich gave the Democratic response! Yesterday he got the House all riled up just mentioning the word “lies” and “lie” in the same paragraph as George Bush, Dick Cheney, and the House of Reps. as a whole.

*laughing like Snoopy*

The SOTU Democratic response is going to be the Governor of Kansas. Sebalus???? I hope the GOP does try to raise this issue and I hope Bush does press about the Feb. 1 deadline. All a strong Democrat needs to say is: well the previous law did not prevent you from installing your warrantless spying program before. So what is different this time? Your administration has a record of flaunting the law. I wish a Dem could learn the art of putting it back on the GOP, were it belongs. Duh.

Will she do a good job? I know who she is but I don’t know her.

Ooh, I got to see that yesterday. “blistering”.

There’s probably some big fat book that will teach one how the senate works …

Yeah, Riddick’s Rules of Senate Procedure. And you are correct about it being a cure for insomnia. Not only that, but Riddick’s Rules don’t tell the whole story, there are a substantial number of “exceptions” appearing in the Congressional Record.

i’m in desperate need of a cure for insomnia.

If that is the case, it makes no difference if they are there, absent is just as good as a “no” vote.

jane just posted she thinks they have to be there for this cloture vote

I suspect that the SOTU and the reply are both more important events in Washington than they are in the real world. How many people watch either? 10%.

Just a guess- but I would think that anyone watching that boring piece of theatre made up their minds about how they will vote twenty years ago at least.

“At the same time, the White House agreed Thursday after months of resistance to give members of the House Intelligence and Judiciary Committees access to internal documents on the N.S.A.’s wiretapping program and the legal foundation for it.

That access could ultimately help persuade skeptical lawmakers in the House, which so far has rejected the immunity idea, to sign on to the White House’s plan.

“I have pushed for eight months to review this material,” said Representative Silvestre Reyes, Democrat of Texas and chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. “I don’t know why the White House refused to give us access. Now we will be able to view documents used to set up the president’s warrantless wiretapping program.”

D’Oh….It must have taken them 8 months to manufacture the documents..D’Oh.

Bipartisanship=Harry Reid=Nancy Pelosi=Barack Obama=Total Failure of Democratic Agenda

It DOES make a difference if they are there. It shows that they have actual leadership skills and aren’t jsust concerned about their little rock-star tours. This FISA fight is more important than their one day of campaigning. If they can’t see that or don’t agree with that, then they DO NOT deserve to become the President of the United States. Limp-wristed statements of “support” is not what leaders do. Leaders DO, they don’t say.

Democratic response? Lets just hope it isn’t Pelosi, Reid, DiFi, Obama or Hillary. Perhaps Joe Liberman could deliver the response.

Nicely said.

If they don’t let Rahm write the speech she’ll be great.

Why in the world does my party treat Lieberman with kid gloves?

i’m always looking for a whitehouse fix. *g*

Their refusal to stand next to Chris Dodd — until Jan. 20, 2008 if necessary — makes it increasingly clear that it doesn’t matter who you vote for this year. So maybe we should abandon this country’s future like so many have and sit at home. Maybe it just isn’t worth being screwed again.

Marc Schenker
Atlanta

The Democrats need to be better at framing the debate (we are, but the ones in government suck at it for the most part). Here’s an example:

When Georgie says, “The Democrats have weakened our security by allowing the FISA law sunset and we are not able to wiretap”

then the Democrats need to say EACH TIME after this remark or one similar,

“The president wants to continue to spy on Americans illegally without a paper trail, because he knows what he is doing is in fact an illegal act. We stand for the rule of law, whereas, the president and his party do not”.

I don’t really know her either. I just remember she graciously suffered a visit from President photo Op after their huge tornado disaster.

A good source for references is the CRC…”Parliamentary reference Sources: Senate” RL30788

Obama and Hilary are disappointing me Bush is using this issue to make the Dems and more specifically Obama and Hilary look weak.
The GOP is in fact playing them as suckers the Dems its obvious had a deal with the GOP, Harry was going to let Dodd filibuster and then he would bring the Dem votes needed to pass a GOP bill.
Now the GOP want more and they are using this issue to argue for more and make Harry look even weaker than before. If the Dems can’t punish the GOP for welching on a political deal then Harry, Obama, Hilary why are you all claiming to be leaders on the issues?
Surrender is not an action it is an acceptance of the actions of others to surrender when you have all the cards is %^$$%^.

I really don’t have a clue how she’ll do. My guess is she was chosen to give the “Heartland” affect of the impact of BushCo economic policies…

’cause he’s so icky.

Yep. That’s the drum I’m beating, too.

Dick Cheney controls Harry Reid

Funny if this bill does get passed the way Bush wants it you know the GOP will start screaming about government tapping your phones if a Dem becomes President.

jane just posted she thinks they have to be there for this cloture vote

Her rationale was that their votes would be needed in order to reach 60 votes on the motion to limit debate on Reid’s extend-the-PAA option.

I’m quite sure that once (”if” - but not much “if” involved) cloture is rejected on the Bond/Rockefeller bill, and that there’ll be a reversion to pre-PAA FISA if the Senate doesn’t pass an extension, the GOP will swarm over to agree to the extension. They’ll bitch about the DEMs being the reason for the need to do that, but they’ll vote for the extension almost unanimously, and right promptly.

But, as others have noted, there is also the “appearance of leadership qualities” angle at play. I think Clinton and Obama prefer to distance themselves from the FISA debate. When they are in the executive hot seat, they too will crave spying without oversight.

2001 though. is it still current?

Blackmail, Bribes, Drugs, Women Men Fuzzy Farm Animals what does Bush have on him and Obama and Hilary?

Yes. And he may also control Joe Lieberman.

I say let them pass the Damn bill, get a Dem in and spy on Bushco, so we can once and for all put them all in jail.

Oooooh. Not surprising. Any links you can toss my way, Teddy?

One thing I believe to be certain. If Clinton becomes president, the DLC will become an even more powerful force than they already are, within the Democratic Party. And rememember, these guys (DLC) were huge supporters of the Iraq invasion.

Dick Cheney controls Harry Reid

Teddy, did you say Dick Cheney controls Harry Reid?

Gov Sebelius - the answer to Tweety’s inane question “where are the female governors?”

When they are in the executive hot seat, they too will crave spying without oversight.

Probably correct, and that is revolting.

Do you think if HRC gets in that Nancy and Harry will lose their jobs? Or that Lieberman might somehow be dealt with appropriately?

I say let them pass the Damn bill, get a Dem in and spy on Bushco, so we can once and for all put them all in jail.

my objection is not a partisan one. i object to a dem doing this kind of thing (warrantless spying) as much asa i object to bush doing it.

Yes. But I might say it a bit more colorfully. ;0)

We have all the cards we need, Bush’s economic stimulus plan is a joke. It won’t help anybody, however chances are a big bank or hedge fund will need bailing out at the tax payers expense soon.
A delay of even a few days could wreck such a deal. We can use the threat of delaying or not supporting any bailout as a stick to beat the GOP with.
They know that they will need us to support such a deal with the American public because when people are losing their homes and gas is $3 a gallon saving banks is not going to be popular.
But if the Dem leadership hasn’t produced for us we won’t support them when they need support.

For the first time in history, I bet Joe Lieberman will be put in charge of both the House & Senate if Hillary gets in. LOL Hey, there were lots of firsts when Georgie was prezzie, so of course Hillary will have to have her own.

Edwards, gawd bless him, is making a stand regarding FISA. I couldn’t be happier is on the same page with us.

I hope he takes this whole issue as far as he can and place on the feet of the other prez. candidates if they do not commit.

He only stand to come out straight ahead of them if he does….

I was being snarky….:)