Hi Christy!

Morning Christy!

Lamar Alexander — making Mr. Rogers look tough…

OMG! I’m dying. I’m watching them debate FISA on CSPAN-2 and Lamar Alexander is giving a speech that could not be more dishonest. He’s using the word “bipartisan” with a tourettes-like frequency and wedging every Republican lie in he possibly can.

He just said that doctors were leaving rural areas and poor women couldn’t get prenatal care because of runaway malpractice suits. I’ve known a few Tennessee liars in my time but he really is competing for the crown.

Oh good. Here comes Cornyn. Katie, where’s my blood pressure medicine…

Christy, I asked downstairs: 1) why are we not contacting Repug people in blue states (Snowe, Collins, Sununu); 2) if we don’t get the requisite number of supporters, does this mean that there can be no filibuster by Dodd (and others)?

Thanks, Christy! I just saw the end of the Dodd speech on CSPAN2, and he was passionate about it, although his voice sounded frayed. Is there any FISA action scheduled for today?

Cornyn up now. Republicans just had a meeting in which they decided that they’re ready to do business. Of course, they want to do business on THEIR terms. Blergh.

Bob in HI

Why oh why is Harry Reid doing the bidding of the R’s by scheduling cloture for Monday afternoon? I seriously do not understand his reasoning. Is there any hope left for D leadership?

Well, I dunno — I said every Senator above in my post, so I thought it was pretty clear that everyone should contact their own Senators on this. But the Dems have more incentive to stand up against cloture, I think, than the GOP Senators have to run away from Cheney. (Don’t ask me why — his approval makes basements look airy.)

The GOP has to gather 60 votes. As I said above, contact every Senator — which means Dems and GOP ones alike if they represent you. But holding the Dem caucus together is something I’d like to see happen on this, and it got easier to argue with Jay Rockefeller standing up against cloture late yesterday.

Cornyn is now lecturing us on how the public is sick of “bickering and bipartisanship,” as if the Republicans did not arrogantly filibuster every fucking FISA amendment yesterday that did not give Bush everything he wanted.

Low approval ratings of congress do not separate between Republicans and Democrats he said, because if they did we’d see that it was the Democrats they hate for being obstructionist.

“Bipartisanshp — our 6o vote rule for cloture, to close off debate, so that we can have a 50 vote up-or-down vote requires it.”

“Here comes Cornyn”

As a Texan I would like to apologize for that. If it is any consolation even repugs here are disgusted with him.

I’m not certain I understand that logic — both the Dems and the GOP have strategy retreats out of town this weekend. GOP is going ot the Greenbrier (in my home state of WV, which is VERY lovely, btw) and the Dems are going to Williamsburg. I think it accommodated both schedules and I don’t see it as helping the GOP any more than the Dems.

Hi Christy!

Sen. Jay Rockefeller is saying that he will not vote for cloture on Monday.

Well, that’s a pleasant and unexpected Woo-Hoo! for today. thanks.

Yes, John Cornyn: Mr. “I Take Under-The-Table Money From Ralph Reed and Jack Abramoff to fix their problems.” is the poster boy for bi-partisanship.

Republicans — putting our national security at risk for their political gain.

Republicans — putting our national security at risk to coverup criminal conduct in the White House.

Republicans — putting our national security at risk to give George Bush soundbites for his SOTU.

Republicans — putting our national security at risk to hide the lies, incompetence and failures of George Bush and Dick Cheney.

Republicans — putting our national security at risk in a desperate strategy to hold the White House

Cornyn’s driveling about how he likes what he does as Senator…

Why isn’t Cornyn in jail for that Reed/Abramoff email? Because we don’t live in that world, we live in a world where Tim Russert invites him on Meet the Press as a disinterested observer to comment on the Abramoff case.

You beat me to it, Christy.

should we be discussing why republicans would willingly give the next democratic president the power to run them over like a train any time they choose? Would the existing gop’ers want to give away all hope of having any say whatsoever in the administration that starts in January? They are going to be in the 35% range in the next congress with no majority except in really red states where stupidity reigns supreme.

or do they have a plan to rig the election to allow totalitarian control? This doesn’t make any sense unless they are planning on martial law and ending any talk of pesky elections.

this doesn’t make any sense when they know reality is going to remove them from power?

Repeat after me: 9/11 didn’t happen because the government lacked the power to eavesdrop on you. 9/11 happened because we had an incompetent president who ignored warnings of a terrorist attack. Why should we give up our civil liberties because George Bush failed to protect America?

Every time I see him, I think about his complicity in that whole Texas/AG scheme with Reed and Abramoff. And I wonder what in the hell Alice Fisher has been promised to sit on that investigation so that it oozes out so slowly.

Just pisses me off every damn time I see him. Send Katie over with some blood pressure meds for me, too, would you? *g*

this doesn’t make any sense when they know reality is going to remove them from power?

It makes sense if they are only talking to each other and within the Beltway. Reality tends to NOT penetrate the Beltway bubble too often.

Can I have some, too, ladies? He is my f*cking Senator and I just cringe each and every time I see or hear his name.

Repeat after me – Senator Rick Noriega!

And, I have to say, the leadership that Chris Dodd and Russ Feingold have shown for the last two years on these issues makes me awfully proud. They both deserve enormous kudos.

I think they figure any Dem elected to Prez will likely not abuse that power anywhere near as much as they do. That’s why they’re Dems…they have a conscience, although I wonder about the Clintons. Then, it’s unlikely any of the current crop of Dems will actually take power away from themselves, so these same unconstitutional power grabs will still exist the next time Repubes take office. No harm, no foul for their nefarious plans.

Almost makes me want to move to Wisconsin – except for that whole winter thingy.

I love Russ!

From a person in a very similar situation (my Senators are Evan “Milquetoast” Bayh, and Richard “I’ll just mail it in” Lugar), I really feel sorry for progressive Texans. Senator Kay Bailey Hypocrite, and John (”in the Top-Five Most Disgusting Members of the Senate”) Cornyn – my deepest condolences to Progressive Texas.

I meant to warn you guys — the Rove links in here are appalling and crass, which you expect from him, frankly. But the utter disregard for the importance of national security being considered carefully and thoughtfully when balanced against civil liberties — he could honestly give a rats ass about that so long as he can make a false wedge of bullshit out of it.

It seems to me that Reid’s scheduling of cloture right before the State of the Union will only help R’s by highlighting the Dems’ impotence. Even the low information voter tunes in to the SOTU. Tweety and others will be all atwitter in the pre speech analysis about how D’s went down in flames trying to block FISA.

Thanks.

Christy and Jane, I would draw your attention to this comment left on Glenn Greenwald’s threads if you haven’t seen it. Thoughts?

Folks, Let’s Digg It and help get the word out

has anyone said fuck bipartisanship yet today?

P.S. Kit Bond looks like he’s still drunk – strike that – I think he looked drunker than he did yesterday.

that’s what gets me, they trust the democrats after trying to screw them out of any compromise for 8 years?
yesterday Bond told everyone he was working with to go screw off, and you could tell there was a considerably amount of shock.
it’s looking like it is rigged. How can so many people subject to the vote of their constituents be willing to go against their electorate?

Curious also how Whitehouse will be viewed at the end of this. I thought yesterday that he had tried to work with the Repubs behind the scene to bring changes, and then was BS when Mitch lied.

I just called my senators, for all the good that will do.
Coburn and Inhofe. Blech.
Just finished watching Cornyn, which I probably never do due to blood pressure.
Youch! Whitehouse just got a zinger in on Cornyn. This is great!

Senator Chris Dodd coming up live on MSNBC with Andrea Mitchell Groanspan.

Whitehouse – “I thank my good friend friends from Texas and (somewhere), and I hope that they’ll notify me when this new bipartisanship begins.”

heh-heh.

I think Whitehouse is a very decent guy who is committed to rule of law. But he’s also the sort of work behind-the-scenes legislator who likes to fashion a good compromise where he can get one. He was beyond pissed at Bond lying about what he had tried to do, and I think he has a much better understanding of just how low the GOP is willing to go to get their way.

I like Whitehouse a lot, based on a number of issues that he’s worked diligently on since he’s been elected. You learn tactics and such along the way, and he got a good dose of that yesterday when Bond and McConnell were willing to mock him working in good faith regardless of how false their representations were.

You learn tactics and such along the way, and he got a good dose of that yesterday when Bond and McConnell were willing to mock him working in good faith regardless of how false their representations were.

Whitehouse strikes me as precisely the kind of guy one does not want to piss off.

I’m not certain that’s completely correct, because without cloture on the Intel bill, they go back to amendment debate is my understanding. The other cloture motion was filed as an attempt to pre-empt the GOP — but I think there was an objection to it being filed, although I’d have to go back through the record to say that for certain (and I don’t have time at the moment, unfortunately…anyone know for sure on this?).

The convoluted way in which everything unfolded at the end yesterday left everyone scrambling to figure out the procedural intricacies, and I’m still trying to piece together the exact chain of events for Monday as a result.

Whitehouse strikes me as precisely the kind of guy one does not want to piss off.

Kinda like the Ladies of the Lake in that regard, huh?

(Note to self and others: one p*sses off Christy Hardin Smith, Jane Hamsher, Phoenix Woman, Looseheadprop, emptywheel, et al at your own peril – you have been warned) :})

I get that impression as well — he especially strikes me as the sort of person who does not appreciate being deliberately lied to for manipulative purposes.

Yup. He did a number on that arrogant, smug, EPA Administrator yesterday.

Meant to mention this above, but if you are getting any specific information from Senate offices on how Senators are leaning on cloture, please leave that information here in the comments. Much appreciated!

to Christy; I think Whitehouse, Wyden, Feingold were all trying for some compromise. What could make Bond and his tools pull the rug out? Was it planned as a rouse? Or did ol’ dick make a phone call?
How many filibuster opportunities remain?

Thanks, I had the same sense of this.

I suspect McConnell’s Monday cloture vote will go down spectacularly. There may be a number of pissed off republicans as well. I mentioned Specter yesterday. His amendment, 3905, was again objected to, without a vote, today (a few minutes ago). This objection is stupid, because the amendment would go down to defeat if it was brought up for a vote.

yes he did, and it was a lot of fun to watch.

I just hope someone gets around to telling that guy that he got destroyed, because he didn’t come across as being terribly perceptive, did he?

OT: Blue America’s Donna Edwards and Rep. Al Wynn are going to debate on WAMU shortly. Streaming at http://www.wamu.org/ .

Did he say that? Probably Alexander, who was lying his Tennessee ass off.

The Monday timing for the cloture vote is out of Reid’s control. The rule provides for a one-day interim (file on day one, layover day two, vote on day three), and the GOP can insist on sticking to the timeline of the rule.

Good comment PS

I just want to snarkily add that according to the gooper debate we are supposed to thank Bush for keeping us safe.

spit.

So what are the chances of this FISA extension going down in flames just before the SOTU? I know there are lots of variables here, but I really want to hear Georgie sputtering on national teevee about how the Defeatocrats just want us to lose the fight on terra.

Then, can we get Whitehouse or Russ to give the rebuttal and sound reasonalbe, rather than Nancy or Harry? I want someone with a spine and a brain to speak for me.

Just a thought here. I would like, I believe, to see, at some point in the NOT TOO distant future, a Whitehouse/Webb ticket for the presidency. I’m thinking that’d be a good thing. Whitehouse is spectacular, and I’d LIKE a VP who has actually SEEN combat and knows the horrors of war.
Sorry for the off-topic, I just wanted to say that to someone.
siri@legitgov.org

yes he did say that – and he just now mentioned Senator Alexander (and Cornyn), so you’re right…

the media doesn’t understand. http://radarcontact.blogspot.c…..ncest.html

The FISA battle is a real litmus test for how the Dem candidates are going to demonstrate leadership, as FDL has been pounding on for days now.

Christy and Jane, some of us were brainstorming last night. Wouldn’t it be great if Dodd’s office were to contact all three of them, Clinton, Obama, and Edwards to stand together and say, we stand for the rule of law?

The original idea was for Dodd to invite Edwards, but I really think this needs to be one for all and all for one. It would really lift the country up, I believe.

Governor Sebelius of Kansas is giving the SOTU rebuttal for the Dems I believe.

Senator Bond, would you please take ten steps, heel-to-toe, in a straight line, turn, and take ten more steps back, again heel-to-toe…

Now, please close your eyes, extend your arms, and touch your left index finger to the tip of your nose…

Republicans all puffed up with faux righteousness spinning that Dems don’t care about security is pure chutzpah. I don’t recall hearing any of them expressing concern or outrage about telecoms cutting off eavesdropping over unpaid bills.

Re what is supposed to happen Modnday, this is what cboldt posted at Marcy’s last night from the Congressional Calendar:

1.–Ordered, That at 9:30 a.m. on Friday, January 25, 2008, the Senate resume consideration of S. 2248, a bill to amend the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, to modernize and streamline the provisions of that act, and for other purposes.
Ordered further, That a vote on the motion to invoke cloture on the pending substitute Amdt. No. 3911, offered by the Senator from West Virginia (Mr. Rockefeller) and the Senator from Missouri (Mr. Bond), take place at 4:30 p.m. on Monday, January 28, 2008; provided that the mandatory quorum call required under Rule XXII be waived; provided further, that the vote be deemed concluded at 12:00 noon.
Ordered further, That if cloture is invoked, all time during recess or adjournment count against the 30 hours.
Ordered further, That the mandatory quorum call required under Rule XXII be waived on the motion to invoke cloture on Amdt. No. 3918, offered by the Senator from Nevada (Mr. Reid). (Jan. 24, 2008.)

without cloture on the Intel bill, they go back to amendment debate is my understanding. The other cloture motion was filed as an attempt to pre-empt the GOP — but I think there was an objection to it being filed, although I’d have to go back through the record to say that for certain (and I don’t have time at the moment, unfortunately…anyone know for sure on this?).

The current scheduled procedure is to have the McConnell cloture vote (on the SSCI substitute amendment) at 4:30 Monday. If and only if that motion is rejected (it will be rejected, count on it), then the Senate will vote to limit debate on Reid’s amendment, 3918, which extends the PAA by 30 days.

There is no way possible to object to filing a cloture motion. 16 Senators in agreement have the absolute right to file such a motion, even if the other 84 Senators don’t like it.

What the hell is Bond talking about, ”after 9/11, when we knew there were other attacks planned?”

What jerks. What total jerks to undermine good faith efforts. And this, after Andrew Young had just reminded us all that behind the scenes humility is just what is called for to settle differences. I saw that Whitehouse looked quite animated on the floor yesterday when they were taking the vote, but I had chalked it up to his vigorous take down of Environmental Pretention Agency Chief Johnson just moments before.

Hi all. More of the same over here. We need to make as much noise as possible on this.

I’ve made dozens of comments on FDL and never felt the need to break out the bold, but there’s a first time for everything:

Attention Senators Clinton and Obama: This is precisely the kind of situation that directly impacts the enthusiasm of your supporters. Do you want them to pound the pavement, man the phone banks and otherwise drum up support for you in the fall or do you want them to just go into the booth on election day, hold their noses and vote for you? Day One for leadership was yesterday. Don’t be any later than you already are.

Thanks.

Republicans all puffed up with faux righteousness spinning that Dems don’t care about security is pure chutzpah. I don’t recall hearing any of them expressing concern or outrage about telecoms cutting off eavesdropping over unpaid bills.

The one is about national security. The other is about capitalism. No comparison between the two from a Republican point of view, or which they consider more important.

…. Please keep your hands to your sides. No the road is not slanted.

Then D’s are screwed again. I dread hearing the news on Monday night going something like this. “What will Bush say tonight about the WH’s FISA success just minutes ago in the Senate, where D’s failed spectacularly attempting to block telecom immunity.”

Kit Bond up now on CSPAN2, spreading disinformation and lies about FISA.

Bob in HI

Yeah, I’m with you, danps! See me at 57.

Who is giving the dems “equal time” SOTU reclama?
How about Feingold?

Thus far this morning, every GOP Senator who has gotten up to speak has played the “bi-partisan whining” Disinformation-R-Us tactic. Disgusting.

I’m just — beside myself. The lying is off the hook.

Are Kit Bond’s pants on fire?

Thanks, Christy. My head just spins.

Called DiFi’s SFO office. Staffer said she has not decided how she will vote on Monday. Big surprise.

I dread hearing the news on Monday night going something like this. “What will Bush say tonight about the WH’s FISA success just minutes ago in the Senate, where D’s failed spectacularly attempting to block telecom immunity.”

When I said McConnell’s cloture motion would go down spectacularly, I meant that it would be REJECTED. I won’t be surprised if it fails to get a bare majority, let alone the 60 votes it needs to pass. Then faced with the PAA expiring, Reid’s 3918 extension will probably pass, on the spot. The can will be kicked 30 days down the road.

The news is apt to report a reversal in fortune, where last weeks defeat of a measure that would strip immunity was kept alive for another go.

Not yet, but his nose is as long as a telephone wire.

Governor Kathleen Sebelius of Kansas is giving the Dem SOTU rebuttal. She was chosen to represent the “heartland” in a time of economic need prior to the Senate commencing the wrangling over the FISA bill.

Kit, if it was so legal, let’s see the proof!

OMG – head. about. to. explode.

I can’t have a drink because I’m at work.

Beat me to it. LOL

This is from an e-mail from The Pen:

“What part of exercising power doesn’t Harry Reid get? The Washington
Post reports him “pleading” with the White House. And yet, it is his
decision which version of the FISA bill to have the Senate consider,
and by choosing to bring forward the bad one, he is knowingly forcing
opponents of yet another “get out of jail free card” for Cheney
cronies to get 60 votes to strip it out of the bill. Or filibuster
yet again.”

Step Down Harry Action Page:
http://www.usalone.com/step_down_harry.php (anyone can use this link)

if it isn’t ants, it’s cockroaches. good cop, bad cop. mutt and jeff. freind and foe. it’s just another show… hit it boys… one more time

OT: Blue America’s Donna Edwards and Rep. Al Wynn are going to debate on WAMU shortly. Streaming at http://www.wamu.org/ .

Aargh, had to turn it off, Al Wynn is too much of an ass to listen to. He just pulled the standard conservative “I’ll interrupt you and then accuse you of interrupting when you try to continue, then lecture you on courtesy and say ‘you’ll get a chance to speak’ [when I let you.]”

I wish I could reach through the tubes and throttle them.

Pinch hit for her… FISA more important?

ok – now we can quit worrying about the whole retroactive immunity thing. Senator (burp) Bond has just decreed that the telecoms were acting legally.

Thank you, Judge Senator Bond. Happy Hour begins in just a little more than 4 hours.

Honestly, I’m used to chicanery and outright falsehoods from this crowd. I mean, hello, I’ve liveblogged Orrin Hatch far too many times to count at this point.

But today’s performance has been beyond the pale in terms of just flat out lying. I keep waiting for a lightning bolt to come thundering out of the sky it’s so bad…

I understand what you meant, but I respectfully disagree. I’ve become conditioned to expect defeat because that is what we’ve been given again, and again, and again. The timing for this is unfortunate, in my opinion, because it will be heard by a lot more people than usual.

WTF is Bond talking about? Drooling out nonsense…

Why, oh, why can’t Harry just tell Georgie to go Cheney himself and be done with it? Republicans do it all the time. Why can’t we play like that, too? I thought that was what being in the “majority” meant.

Bond just made a major admission there. He said he believed in the theory of evolution (at least as regards terrorists). Will his consitutents ever forgive him?

Sheldon Whitehouse up now on CSPAN2!

Bob in HI

We might believe that but I doubt if the powers in DC believe it.

That is exactly what I’m talking about. OK, procedure set the cloture vote for Monday, but Reid is inescapably daft when it comes to promoting the progressive cause.

Sheldon Whitehouse up now on CSPAN2!
Bond demanding that 60-vote rule apply to everything.

Bob in HI

Bayh’s number which you list is the Washington number. I tried calling it just now. It rant over 30 times, with no answer, and no roll to voice mail. This was the same result later yesterday afternoon after I had already called twice, one in the morning, and one after he was one of the 10 so-called Democrats who ditched the bill with no immunity on the first critical vote of the day. Those calls were answered. There has been no answer since. His Senate web site has local offices listed across Indiana, and later this afternoon I may try those. I will definitely be faxing him tomorrow.

Frankly, I have seen this happen before with Bayh’s office in Washington. Whenever the heat rises, suddenly his Washington number simply does not answer. I have seen this at lest three or four times in past year.

I personally begin to suspect he is hiding from his constituents. As well he should.

I normally refer to Bayh as Republican-Lite. Right now the Lite needs to read Heavy, perhaps.

Webb’s staffer said he hasn’t put out an official position yet, but admitted he assumes he’ll vote against cloture. (No big surprise there.)

Honestly, I’m used to chicanery and outright falsehoods from this crowd.

Well, an anagram of Richard Cheney is Chicanery Herd

what just happened? whitehouse asked bond a question and now we’re going to “normal” mode.

And that does what, other than having everyone wallow in what already happened? We have a legitimate shot and stopping this in its tracks, again, on Monday. Which is more than anyone thought we had at the beginning of the week.

Folks, I wasn’t kidding when I asked everyone to make calls and send FAXes today. Whatever your personal feelings about any of these people, pushing them to do the right thing on this is our job — and we need to do it.

Bond just made a major admission there. He said he believed in the theory of evolution (at least as regards terrorists). Will his consitutents ever forgive him?

if you mean about us only getting the dumb ones allowing the smart clever ones to escape and breed prolifically, he used that yesterday too! unfreakin’believeable

Now Byron Dorgan up on FISA on CSPAN2.

Bob in HI

From you keyboard to God’s ear, cboldt. You obviously know a lot, and a really, really, hope you are right. But forgive me for doubting the competence of the D leadership.

wow SD talking to his peers like they are five years old!

Al Gore now on CSpan from yesterday’s World Economic Forum with Bono and the hapless Thom Friedman.

what just happened? whitehouse asked bond a question and now we’re going to “normal” mode.

Whitehouse asked Bond if he’d guarantee that his (Whitehouse’s) proposed amendment would ever come to a vote.

Bond replied (essentially), “Sure, kid, just as soon as we get back to requiring 60 votes for its passage. Now sit down, son.”

I’ve become conditioned to expect defeat because that is what we’ve been given again, and again, and again. The timing for this is unfortunate, in my opinion, because it will be heard by a lot more people than usual.

No sweat. And obviously I’m engaging in speculation too. I just don’t see McConnell’s cloture motion passing. I do agree that the administration will eventually get what it is unreasonably demanding for FISA legislation, retroactive immunity/amnesty and all (and this is truly amnesty, because there is ZERO penalty), but they won’t get it next week.

The link in the post to “Senator numbers” takes you to the Senate web page directory for every Senator. Each Senator has a link to their own personal Senate web page, which has contact information for all of the local offices along with the DC office.

Here is the contact information page for Bayh and all of the numbers for his various offices –

I called McCaskill’s office. They won’t say if she’s going to vote for or against cloture Monday, but that she supports being able to SUE THE GOVERNMENT. I.e. the specter amendment. call her call her call her…

ooh, I like this! This senator (sorry, didn’t catch name, South Dakota). He’s reviewing what is really happening here and why FISA matters. He’s pulling the wool back off the public’s eyes.

Dorgan: vacuum cleaner surveillance! I like it.

Ok, here’s a weird one for you:

I just called Senator Voinovich’s Columbus office. I talked with a very nice lady, and I told her that I wanted the Senator to vote against cloture on the FISA bill.

I said if I broke the law, I couldn’t go to Congress to get a ‘do-over’ why should the telecommunications industry?

She said she’d pass that along to the Senator this afternoon, and she seemed very sympathetic to my point of view.

This is a first. (The Washington staff is a lot snootier.)

Byron Dorgan, North Dakota.

sorry

Bond replied (essentially), “Sure, kid, just as soon as we get back to requiring 60 votes for its passage. Now sit down, son.”

Bond’s answer was not responsive to Whitehouse’s inquiry. Whitehouse asked if the amendment would be objected to for being a non-germane amendment in a post-cloture environment. Bond’s “concession” that it would be debated is a hollow promise. The timing of a “not germane” challenge is ALWAYS after the amendment is debated. ALWAYS.

The 60 vote threshold statement was his general position,

These guys (both sides) are slippery as eels.

Christy,

Respectfully, I don’t see anything wrong with expressing lack of confidence in the leadership. They need to hear our disgust at their failures. And it is helpful to hear that we are not alone in our anger at their failure. It matters.

And I am making calls. See my #76.

“wow SD talking to his peers like they are five years old!”

No, he’s clearly talking to the public and trying to raise public awareness about basic FISA issues that 95% of the population has no clue about. IMHO, of course.

Bob in HI

I got through to Bayh’s office. No decision yet.

They said they’ll e-mail me when that decision is made (after I told them I wasn’t interested in receiving a letter which couldn’t arrive until after the vote).

I’m not holding my breath, but there it is.

Bayh in D.C. (202) 224-5623

Thanks Bob. *g* I realize that, but I do like how he says my colleagues know very little about this…it’s a great way to go.

Also, Whitehouse and dems now have ammo to say we tried to work with you guys but you torpedoed that you BFLs.

Bob – I agree that the public is the target audience, but other than geeks like me to are watching because I know the importance, who else is paying attention?

There’s other stuff you know – like, Heath is dead, like Amy is in rehab (no, no, no) and Britney was acting weird again.

I think you’re mistaken to say that the media “don’t comprehend the details.”

The huge telecommunications companies are some of the biggest advertisers paying the bills of the big media firms.

This has an effect on reporting.

Shout out to the FirePups in the Central Ohio area:

If you listen to 610 WTVN’s Open Phones on Saturday morning, call Connors* and ask your fellow listeners to call their Senators to vote against cloture on FISA.

You might want to use the phrase “vacuum cleaner surveillance” — it has a nice ring.

*I’m going to do so, but I figure the more the merrier!

tinfoil hat!

my cspan just went down as dorgan was getting to administration misdeeds.

tinfoil hat!

my cspan just went down as dorgan was getting to administration misdeeds.

just showing they got teh powah!

Well, that was more a tweak at Joe Klein than anyone. *G*

I think you’re mistaken to say that the media “don’t comprehend the details.”

I’ve had some good private exchanges with well-known media figures on the subject of FISA. They understand well enough. The “problems” as I see them are first, that the public is cowed into trading privacy for faux-security. That is, they don’t feel the weight of big brother. Second, that even if they had uneasiness about secret snooping (by the government), other subjects tend to make a higher priority impression in their minds, other subjects being outside of politics, and if inside politics, limited to economy, taxes, and their pet views of what the government ought to be doing in other areas.

…the public is sick of bickering…

NO! The public is sick of lies, law-breaking, and more lies.

As this adminstration winds down, I find myself looking back and getting incredibly angry at what they have done to this country.

Republicans need to stop trying to whitewash what has happened. They need to stop calling for more civility. That’s a crock. MORE anger is appropriate, not less. We must continue to demand accountability.

I am sick of the sweeping under the carpet, the bullshit justifications for criminal behavior, the endless efforts to prop up a disaster of a President who has taken us to one of the lowest ebbs this country has ever experienced.

Get mad!

Aha.

I called Salazar’s office this morning. Once to leave a lengthy message, highlighting a couple of Marcy’s talking points, in his voice mail, again to speak directly with a staffer, and followed up with an email noting Marcy’s full list and including a couple more points of my own. The staffer I spoke with indicated that Sen. Salazar had issued no statement as to how he would vote regarding cloture on the SSIC bill Monday afternoon. Typically, Salazar votes like a Bush dog. I’ve been in contact with his office regarding FISA, basket warrants, and data mining procedures for about the past 5 months. I don’t see him changing his stripes now. However, one can hope.

I’ve not used it because I can afford the phone calls, and I don’t want to make Chris Dodd’s financial picture more difficult, but my understanding is his phone widget is still in operation. For anyone whose budget is constrained, but wants to make a call, try this. I’m sure Senator Dodd would appreciate all the help he can get.

I ran to my TV in the other room. It’s working there. Phew! I missed his conclusions though. He was doing a good job.

I like Whitehouse, but his proposal that the “government” replace the telecoms as the defendant in law suits would mean that the taxpayers assume liability for these companies’ wrongdoing, wouldn’t it?

another talking point that will twist their knickers is to remin them that they wouldn’t want Hillary to get her hands on all that datamining power.

Because the companies aren’t going to pass that increased liability off on consumers anyway? (I don’t like the pass off on liability, either, but really consumers/taxpayers are going to get the bill either way, aren’t they?)

I am not usually a black and white person but this issue is a b/w one for me.

We either stand for the Rule of Law or we don’t.

Whenever the lying liars get up there and say CinC can do whatever he wants, that’s a vote for the Rule of (Dangerous) Men.

That is an EXCELLENT idea! I’m adding that to my remaining calls today.

Talked to Sherrod Brown’s office — they say he does not support immunity for the telcos and will probably vote against cloture.

Nice folks there, too.

The “problems” as I see them are first, that the public is cowed into trading privacy for faux-security. That is, they don’t feel the weight of big brother.

I don’t think people are as cowed as they used to be, but I agree that most people assume it couldn’t happen to them. (And they’re not entirely wrong — the chances it will be used against them are very small, but so are the chances of your house burning down, and you still have fire insurance.) That’s why we get the constant rhetoric from the right claiming that this is only about “listening in on terrorists.” “If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about” still makes sense to a lot of people, because they’re not criminals, and don’t realize that “doing anything wrong” is a lot broader than that.

The staffer I spoke with indicated that Sen. Salazar had issued no statement as to how he would vote regarding cloture on the SSIC bill Monday afternoon.

Salazar was one of the signatories to Reid’s cloture motion, to limit debate on an amendment that extends the existing PAA [there are possibly (I think probably) two cloture votes on Monday afternoon, the first on Bond/Rockefeller SSCI version fo the bill, the second on Reid’s 30 day extension]

Rockefeller, both Nelsons and Carper (out of the votes tabling the SJC version yesterday) also signed onto Reid’s cloture motion. And I still think Specter and perhaps other Republicans will vote against limiting debate on the SSCI version, just on the grounds of a desire to admit more amendments.

I like Whitehouse, but his proposal that the “government” replace the telecoms as the defendant in law suits would mean that the taxpayers assume liability for these companies’ wrongdoing, wouldn’t it?

I have read some legal opinions where is is thought that current law leads to that conclusion and that the Telcoms are worried about liability for there illegal data mining for their own internal use. I am still trying to figure out why Sheldon is trying to protect the Telecom’s.

Except yesterday, the GOP overplayed their cocky, cowboy legislation act. From Sen. Russ Feingold:

The conduct of Senate Republicans yesterday was shameless. After weeks of insisting that it is absolutely critical to finish the FISA legislation by February 1…they obstructed all efforts to actually work on the bill. Now they want to simply ram the deeply flawed Intelligence Committee bill through the Senate. They refused to allow amendments to be offered or voted on….

…Monday’s cloture vote will be a test of whether the majority is willing to stand up to the administration and stand up for our rights.

The GOP’s conduct was insulting — to the Democrats, to the American public, and to the Congress as a whole. So much so that Sen. Jay Rockefeller is saying that he will not vote for cloture on Monday.

I respectfully disagree. Immunity is the one and only objective. The rest is a red herring with which not only to distract, but to beat the Democrats into submission. They know that the next president will be Obama, Clinton, or Edwards, and they’d things equal they’d prefer Democratic presidents not to have this massive oppo-reserch capability.

Thanks for all the call updates, gang — really helpful to know how the various offices are answering questions on this. Much appreciated!

well that brings up another point for me. This isn’t all about being able to spy on individuals (it’s never been about terrorism for me).

“Hey Senator Tool. Do you want your colleagues corporate donors to be able to spy on your corporate donors and get all their competitive and proprietary information and intellectual property? Because Commander Codpiece doesn’t care about your donors, just his.”

That’s why we get the constant rhetoric from the right claiming that this is only about “listening in on terrorists.” “If you’re not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about” still makes sense to a lot of people, because they’re not criminals, and don’t realize that “doing anything wrong” is a lot broader than that.

Only listening to terrorists. Man, that one is a real hoot. If you know they are terrorists, why are you just listening?

At any rate, we see it the same way. The public is generally agreeable with warrantless government surveillance, for a variety of BS reasons.

The “problems” as I see them are first, that the public is cowed into trading privacy for faux-security.

“People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both.”

Lugar (R-IN) No position yet.

Very polite and respectful staff person, assured me that she’d pass my message to the Senator.

fwiw.

My 71 yr. old father-in-law has a small teevee with rabbit ears and the one channel he gets good reception on is PBS. He watches Bill Moyers Journal religiously, and he gets it. The rest of the family is ready to commit me somewhere quiet. They all have cable and believe that we have reps in dc that handle this sorta stuff. *head against desk*

planting this with Beltway press — The Hill, Time, and Newsweek, for starters (who miss the fundamental point that telecom immunity is bribery to keep the Administration’s lawbreaking secrets

I don’t think the beltway set need much persuading.

Re-Post? Another Thug quits:

Rep. Dave Weldon (R-Fla.) announced his retirement today, according to a GOP operative, becoming the 25th House Republican not to run for reelection this election cycle.

link

The thing most people don’t realize is that one doesn’t have to “do anything wrong” to commit a status crime, thanks to the Military Commissions Act.

Only listening to terrorists. Man, that one is a real hoot. If you know they are terrorists, why are you just listening?

Because we need to follow the rule of law and can’t just lock people up on suspicions, right? /s

Yea, this is one of many where I’ve pointed this out to a wingnut, and they say, “Oh….yea….OK….well….ummmm….” Unbelievable how easy it is for the Repubes to control the public discourse, facts and logic be damned.

Christy, what do you make of the change in tone from Voinovich’s local office? I was really expecting hostility based on how the Washington staffer reacted.

exactly

if they were taking information that regards national security then they already comply with fisa, all they have to do is show the information is for the country and not for personal gain

that IS the ticket, they’ve been taking our intelectual property and they don’t want us to see exactly that

they are stealing from us plain and simple

History Note: The hostage taking of the country began when James A. Baker III emerged amid the confusion after the Nov. 2000 balloting in Florida to announce essentially that group he represented was in process of taking over the government without further adieu. That moment signalled a coup d’etat.

It’s not even about that. It’s about using the authority for non “Terrist” related purposes, like domestic political opposition research and outright theft of proprietary information.

Yes, I did catch that. Unfortunately, not until after I’d already called his office. In each and every one of his earlier email responses to me he has included the dreaded words “I am committed to insuring our law enforcement agencies have the tools they need…” The problem was we could never agree on what those tools were, or how best to use them.

I wasn’t able to get any information when I called Bill Nelson’s office. I urged the Senator to come out with a strong statement against cloture on Monday since his vote is one that is seen as crucial to the outcome. Thanks cboldt for reminding us that he is a signatory to the cloture motion on the PAA extension. I’m not in favor of that. I did not bring it up on the call. I emphasized the positive phone calls and emails he would get if he put out a statement today.
I also put a thank-you call in to Reid’s office. I know it’s risky getting my hopes up about him, but I’m beginning to wonder if Mitch McConnell finally accomplished what we have been trying to do for a year now. Is Monday’s cloture vote Harry’s first call to the battered Senators’ hotline?

Casey is talking about the stimulus program – another example of the dems caving. No extended unemployment benefits or food stamps, but tax cuts for corporations. I am sooo disappointed with Nancy Pelosi.

From the link:

A Democratic operative said that former Brevard County Commissioner Nancy Higgs (D) will be entering the race soon after Weldon makes a formal announcement, and is viewed by the party as a strong challenger.

Wonder if Howie has sussed out this race yet? We certainly don’t want a Rahm-ette in there.

More and Better in ‘08!

http://www.actblue.com/page/blueamerica08

Hillary Thanks Cheney

Why are none of our Senators mentioning this? The cuts in first-responder funding… everytime a republic and opens his mouth about ”National Security” the Dem senator who speaks after him should bring this up and point out that it’s a White House idea.

Every.Single.Time.

let me take this further

if we grant telecom immunity that means we are giving them ownership of anything they’ve gained through their illegal behavior

if they’ve stolen a new design for a computer chip or a better method for accessing memory, if they’ve stolen the diagram to a new carburetor for 100 mpg, if they’ve plagiarized a manuscript

they can keep all of everything they’ve taken if we grant immunity

Reid is live at the National Press Club on C-Span (C-Span 1) and is saying nothing about S. 2248.

His comments on Iraq fail to make the excellent points of this article that Glen quoted the other day–that the only impact of the surge has been to entrench troops in Iraq indefinitely.

Surge to Nowhere

History Note: The hostage taking of the country began when James A. Baker III emerged amid the confusion after the Nov. 2000 balloting in Florida to announce essentially that group he represented was in process of taking over the government without further adieu. That moment signalled a coup d’etat.

quite the jolt and start when he appeared!

f they were taking information that regards national security then they already comply with fisa

An ever so slight adjustment to that, the surveillance has to be for foreign intelligence gathering purposes, not for national security. Obviously there is overlap between those two pigeon-holes, but not all national security interests involve matters of foreign intelligence.

Someday, if the surveillance debate lasts long enough, there will be legal arguments over the definition of “foreign intelligence.” That’s where the rubber really meets the road on the fourth amendment expectation that an independent body (usually a Court) review and agree (via warrant) that an invasion of privacy is appropriate.

Blue Texan upstairs. Poor Peggy Noonan is crying enough to drown a thousand points of light.

Yes, when I wear my tinfoil hat, it seems to me that the information gained could be used to make very large, very profitable moves on the stock market through dummy accounts. Presto! Huge piles of cash for anything they want to do off the books. Think Iran-Contra funds multiplied by several orders of magnitude. I have no evidence for this, of course, so it’s pure speculation.

Yeah, Perris. All this War on Terror bullshit is just a way to keep the homeowners looking out the window while Bushco grabs the silver.

I made that point months ago. The only explanation I can think of is that they figure they’ll “help” their guy now and still be able to roll it back when the opposition party gets control. Which by the way is as pure an expression of hubris as you can find.

Actually it’s Reid and Pelosi live at the National Press Club, and true to form not one comment in their speeches, and not one question has gone to FISA.

Republicans have truly succeeded in obscuring it as a vital issue just as they have with Iraq. The press either ignores it or fails to understand it and distorts it time after time.

They may well be right, which is both good and bad. If we don’t stop this now, I sure hope that a bigger Democratic majority that is not facing a veto repeals it. But even if they do, the immunity horse will still be out of the barn.

Reid introduced another alternative extension today, S.2557, extending the PAA until July 1, 2009 Yep. Not a typo, two-thousand-nine.

I’m just — beside myself. The lying is off the hook.

As long as it’s effective (lying manipulation tactic), they’ll keep using it. I don’t know how Whitehouse and other Dems think they can negotiate in good faith bipartisanship with a bunch of sociopaths.

- Tom

ps. In Sheep’s Clothing: Understanding and Dealing With Manipulative People by Dr. George K. Simon — excellent book.

McCaskill has been a real disappointment. As a former auditor, she campaigned on bringing accountability to Washington. I don’t like hearing that she might be leaning toward the Specter amendment – that lends more credibility to suspicions that she is in Sprint’s hip pocket. I called her Washington office this morning and the staffer I talked to mentioned that they’ve been getting a lot of calls.

I’m calling on all my fellow Missourians (and the rest of you fine folks) to flood her offices with phone calls, faxes and e-mails, telling her that’s it’s not too late – she can vote against cloture and for amendments to the SSCI bill. Especially amendments that say “No” to telecom immunity and basket warrants and that say “Yes” to minimization procedures.

Here is her web contact form:

http://mccaskill.senate.gov/contact.cfm

Here are her contact numbers:

Washington, DC
Phone: (202) 224-6154
Fax: (202) 228-6326

Or, just use the toll-free switchboard number: 800-828-0498

WTF?

Seriously, WTF is that about?

Please tell me he has something tricky up his sleeve in allowing amendments to that to submitted no later than 4:00 p.m. on Monday. Please….

Since the votes are scheduled to begin @ 4:30, its probably to allow enough time between amendment submission and the votes.

And I’m sure that Whitehouse is writing up an amendment as we speak that will charge anyone who gives orders to spy on Americans without warrants with treason, high crimes and misdemeanors and that the penalty is immediate deportation.

I can hope, right?

Please tell me he has something tricky up his sleeve in allowing amendments to that to submitted no later than 4:00 p.m. on Monday.

Two independent issues. The 4:00 p.m. deadline pertains to the cloture motion to limit debate on the Bond/Rockefeller substitute amendment. Senators have until 4:00 p.m. to file germane second degree amendments in that context. That context being passing a substantive replacement to the PAA.

S.2557 is a separate stand-alone bill that would extend PAA until well after President Bush’s term expires. I’m still pondering how this plays out, but my first mind-game is to ask whether President Bush would veto the extension, if his choice is between the extension, and lapsing of the PAA. I think he has to sign it, regardless of absence of immunity, because he is on record that the surveillance tools are essential to protect the country.

Nice catch, I missed the distinction. S.2557 may be a play to move the debate out of the way so the Senate can focus on the stimulus package debate.

I can’t reach my senator SORRYASS SALAZAR either. I’ve tried yesterday and today, keep getting voice mail or busy signal. I think he’s hiding. And I can see why. he’s an asshole. I sure do hope Blue America or Act Blue or whoever gets active on his ass when the time comes. One of 9 democrats who voted for the Military Commissions Act bs going on! JEBUS!
siri

Cboldt, pardon my stupidity, but is there a poison pill in S.2557?

I really do appreciate your knowledge here and willingness to share it with us!

Since the votes are scheduled to begin @ 4:30, its [the filing deadline for second degree amendments] probably to allow enough time between amendment submission and the votes.

Not exactly. It’s part of the usual rules pertaining to the cloture process. Amendments have to be filed before the cloture vote is taken. There are 30 hours to debate whichever amendments manage to come through the gauntlet, if the cloture motion is passed. There are unlimited hours if the cloture motion fails.

Except by unanimous consent, no amendment shall be proposed after the vote to bring the debate to a close [i.e., the cloture vote itself], unless it had
been submitted in writing to the Journal Clerk by 1 o’clock p.m. on the day following the filing of the cloture motion if an amendment in the first degree, and unless it had been so submitted at least one hour prior to the beginning of the cloture vote if an amendment in the second degree.

Senate Rule XXII

but is there a poison pill in S.2557?

I think the only thing it contains is a change in the sunset/expiration date of the PAA., but my impression is based on what the clerk read when the bill was introduced and read for the first time. That’s a bit of a poison pill to privacy advocates in its own right, and if passed, it’s also tough choice for President Bush. Does he want retroactive immunity so badly that he’d reject the surveillance tools that he says are necessary to protect the country?

FWIW, being read for the first time, a step necessary to get it on the legislative calendar, is significant. Most bills never get a first reading. Senator Reid is signaling that he is serious about making this option available for debate.

S.2557 may be a play to move the debate out of the way so the Senate can focus on the stimulus package debate.

It moves it farther out of the way that that! It punts FISA clear out of this administration, and into the next.

cboldt, does this suggest to you Reid’s sensitivity to the criticism that he’s played the FISA game in such a way as to benefit Bush’s preferences? Or, that if the current SSIC bill does pass without limiting amendments, Reid wants to be clear there were plenty of opportunities for opposition?

BTW, thanks for following the twists and turns of this for us all.

Which effectively makes the PAA permanent, for the current administration. How lovely. It almost sounds like BushCo is waiting for either a succession crisis in the elections or a Terrist to trigger a state of emergency.

does this [18 month extension of the PAA] suggest to you Reid’s sensitivity to the criticism that he’s played the FISA game in such a way as to benefit Bush’s preferences? Or, that if the current SSIC bill does pass without limiting amendments, Reid wants to be clear there were plenty of opportunities for opposition?

I think it’s an embodiment of his frustration with being pushed to get ‘er done on the one hand, and facing objection on the other. This is the existence of all Senate majority leaders though. I don’t think it works as directly taking a hard line against the administration.

I’m not sure what you’re thinking of when you say “making sure there are plenty of opportunities for opposition.” Clearly, extensions aren’t favored by the administration, which is largely (almost, but not quite lock-step unanimity) being supported by the Senate Republicans, so this doesn’t offer them any good opportunity — and for the Democrats and privacy advocates, this extends an odious bill and moves an opportunity to “tune” the surveillance rules without conceding retroactive immunity.

It’s a tough trade for both sides — but I think it’s a good one to seriously put on the table in order to flush out the relative importance of surveillance rules going forward, and immunity looking backward.

This is probably not new or startling, but this is Tim Tagaris’ take on the setup of events for Monday Jan. 28. Tagris used to work for the Lamont and most recently for the Dodd Presidential campaign. It gives a fairly clear layout of what’s up–I think/maybe/I hope *g*.

Thanks a lot C-boldt for help clarifying S. 2248’s State of the Bill and your helpful links:

Senate Showdown Monday Jan. 28, 2008

Late, late to this thread, but you know I’m always in for the faxes *g*

So important, this issue. I’ll try several phone calls to the #s above later as well. BTW, as per my post last night on EW’s thread, I called & sent a fax early this a.m. to Mary Landrieu’s Baton Rouge office. They were nice but non-committal until I brought up a couple of names- bigtime Mitch campaign supporters. That got their attention, plus a promise to forward Mary my fax re: Mon. no vote on cloture…

It almost sounds like BushCo is waiting for either a succession crisis in the elections or a Terrist to trigger a state of emergency.

I don’t subscribe to stay-past the election conspiracies, but I do enjoy reading them. As for the political fallout following a successful terrorist attack, it’ll be just like 9/11 with both parties (and individuals within parties, administrative offices, etc.) pointing fingers at each other. Governments are NOT accountable, and are barely competent to provide protection. In fact, if the measure is 100% protection, the government CAN’T meet the goal.

The best message that could have come out of 9/11, didn’t. That being to decentralize, to learn personal skills that are useful for overcoming short term adversity, etc. But instead we got promises that the more centralized and powerful we permit the government to become, the more secure our society will be.

It’s a big fat lie, and contra to strong society. Strong societies are, I think, comprised of strong and independent individuals.

The netroots MUST pressure Hillary and Obama to send out an email to every single one of their supporters, to pressure their respective Senators to STOP retroactive immunity from passing.

John Edwards sent out this email to his 200,000 supporters yesterday! He is the only one of the three who is actually leading on this.

If you want to support this effort, then hop over to DailyKos and recommend this diary which describes the surrounding facts, and battle plan: “Time To Play Hardball With Clinton and Obama“

Look, if I recall correctly:

Edwards email list has about 200,000 potential foot soldiers.
Clinton’s list has about 300,000 potential foot soldiers.
Obama’s list has about 500,000 potential foot soldiers.

Between these three candidates, you have essentially every single Democrat in the United States who gives money to, or volunteers time to help, Democrats. This is the backbone and future of the Democratic party. These are the foot soldiers of the Democratic party. In short, without these 1 Million people, there would be no Democratic party.

If these 1 million people were told that this must stop, guess what? We would win this.

Think about it…we are all calling our respective Senators. And yes, all but 12 of them seem to be doing the right thing…so far. But how, I mean how, how do we really put the pressure on the defiant 12 to do the right thing? Without them, we lose. (By the way, one of those 12 is Senator Bayh, Hillary Clinton’s ostensible choice for running mate! Which tells us what?)

Our battle plan MUST be to enlist all 1 Million supporters of ALL three of our Democrats running for President. So far, we have the supporters of only ONE of the candidates being called to the trenches! That must change.

Clearly, the Democratic party, including the defiant 12, CANNOT stand up to all 1 Million of these people…can it? Can the the defiant 12 stand up to Obama, Edwards, Clinton AND all 1 million of their supporters?! Hint: NO!

Can somebody contact Glenn Greenwald with this idea as well? Might we get some press perhaps?

So it is time to play hardball with Obama and Clinton. Call them right now and DEMAND THAT THEY ENLIST THEIR 800,000 FOOT SOLDIERS TO STOP RETROACTIVE IMMUNITY. (Many of us are on all the email lists…so we will know when they actually do this.)

Let their phones ring off the hook:

Barack Obama – (202) 224-2854
Hillary Clinton – (202) 224-4451

The bottom line is this: unless Clinton and Obama do this, Clinton and Obama will shoulder the blame if retroactive immunity passes. It is that simple. Time to play hardball. Time for leadership and results.

Hi folks….

I’m really late to this party and I called most of those Senators you indicated on that list and sent an email to HRC (maybe it’s just me but they don’t answer their phones too often-) and used that CREDO thing-a-ma-jig email (works great)…

Hope you-all have a great weekend—-

Wahoo!—-

You know HRC’s office is tough to get a hold of so I just emailed her at the Senator’s website….

When there’s a will there’s a way….

his is probably not new or startling, but this is Tim Tagaris’ take on the setup of events for Monday Jan. 28.

Picking just this one part for comment, I think Mr. Tagaris oversimiplifies the options. There are many more directions this could play out.

a.) Republicans get 60 votes. In which case, there will only be one amendment pending to the final bill, and that is Feingold/Dodd on blanket warrants, I believe. That will get tabled quite easily (much like Judiciary was today), and then the Intelligence Bill as we know it will get a a vote for final passage.

Passing a cloture motion doesn’t limit the number of amendments that can come up after the cloture vote. At this point, the GOP is trying to get ZERO additional amendments pending, leaving only the Feingold/Bond competition relating to which parts of FISA Court pleadings and opinions would be submitted to Congress. Feingold/Dodd’s #3909 vs. Bond’s #3916.

But further amendments could come up and be debated. As to Dodd holding firm on 60 vote supermajority votes, I’m not sure which way he’d go. If there wasn’t a cloture motion on the underlying bill, I think he’d agree to 60 vote margins, because that’s effectively what would be in place via the usual objection/cloture routine. Being under a passed cloture motion, he still might agree, as that might be the only opportunity to get a hearing; and he could parlay the supermajority requirement as being an unfair hurdle set up by the GOP. That’d be a fib, but it’s a very common fib told by Senators.

At any rate, my only point is that there are lots of options, including all the amendments such as stripping immunity, exclusivity, FISC reporting to Congress, IG review and report of warrantless surveillance, etc., that could easily be brought up for debate post-cloture. Some would be disposed of as non-germane, others would be disposed of by vote. I think this scenario (lots of options brought up and defeated) is inevitable (yes, I’m a cynical pessimist in that regard), but I don’t think it can or will happen next week. It won’t happen because there isn’t enough time to wrangle through all that legislative ass covering (i.e., giving the Senators cover for saying “I tried.”) plus get past the House, before February 1st.

I like the idea of getting more numbers involved. One question I’ve had is whether anyone has approached the Ron Paul organization about getting involved in the FISA fight. Even though the netroots has very little in common idealogically with Ron Paul’s supporters, one thing that Ron Paul is strong on is civil liberties.

It seems like that would be a powerful coalition (”a temporary alliance of distinct parties, persons, or states for joint action”) for this particular cause.

Here’s another point that’s slightly off …

And if Republicans do manage to get sixty votes, a filibuster is certain to ensue in the subsequent 30 hours.

30 hours is 30 hours. The same clock runs if they are in recess, adjourned or talking. But post-cloture time is unique in that it LIMITS each Senator to one hour of talk time!

Those minor parliamentary points aside (post-cloture filibuster – ability and likelihood of getting amendments pending post-cloture), I think Mr. Tagaris’s analysis is very good. Or at least I agree with the political positions as he posits them.

Reid is not mounting a direct challenge to the administration’s FISA bill. He’s set up situations aimed to discourage opposition, and he hasn’t illuminated parliamentary tactics that short-circuit the effect of opposition. He’s more acting the part of an impartial choreographer.

One question I’ve had is whether anyone has approached the Ron Paul organization about getting involved in the FISA fight.

I suspect that to the extent those folks are aware there is a FISA fight going on, they ARE activist about it. I’m of a mind that a close issues-oriented affiliation would cause more harm the DEM side, without any upside as far as moving the Senate away from objectionable aspects of the administration’s FISA bill.

As a fellow Okie, thanks for posting. I wasn’t going to waste time on our Senators — it always seems so pointless — but now I will, so at least they get two calls.

I also just spoke with McCaskill’s office. The staffer I talked to confirmed that she was leaning toward the Specter amendment. I explained why I thought that was not a good amendment. He was actually very knowledgeable on the issue and responsive, unlike many staffers I’ve talked to this week.

He mentioned that they’ve fielded over 1000 calls today on FISA. That’s awesome! Let’s keep up the pressure (on all our senators).

January an interesting month in terms of history and rights. A month symbolic of the Emancipation Proclamation, Martin Luther King and the birth of the first written words of American independence:

January 9, 1776 – Thomas Paine’s “Common Sense” is published in Philadelphia. The 50 page pamphlet is highly critical of King George III and attacks allegiance to Monarchy in principle while providing strong arguments for American independence. It becomes an instant best-seller in America. “We have it in our power to begin the world anew…American shall make a stand, not for herself alone, but for the world,” Paine states.

It is also a month marked by oaths taken with national interests turned into destructive self-interests…

“I will employ my strength for the welfare of the German people, protect the Constitution and laws of the German people, conscientiously discharge the duties imposed on me, and conduct my affairs of office impartially and with justice to everyone.” – the oath taken by Adolf Hitler. 1/30/1933

My hope is that January 28th, 2008 goes down as another famous January date that stands for constitutional liberties and not false oaths or empty promises made by selfish, power-hungry politicians.

It’s a day of substantial actions needed to protect the Constitution. And as Thomas Jefferson wrote one January:

Whenever the people are well informed, they can be trusted with their own government; that whenever things get so far wrong as to attract their notice, they may be relied on to set them to rights.

* Letter to Richard Price (January 8, 1789)

People, keep making your calls. I hope Edwards does something more to support Dodd.

Thanks for your nice outlines of the permutations and combinations. On one recennt thread you remarked that Reid often toses out luke-warm rhetoric indicating he’s an anti-Bush team player,only to act in the entirely opposite way. For me that’s a Reid trademark, and I’d really be very surprised if he falls out of that pattern with this bill.

And I’m sure that Whitehouse is writing up an amendment as we speak that will charge anyone who gives orders to spy on Americans without warrants with treason, high crimes and misdemeanors and that the penalty is immediate deportation.

I can hope, right?

Given that Whitehouse caved in and voted with Bush, and was one of the 13 people on SSIC who voted for their turkey of a bill, (only Wyden and Feingold) opposed it–the vote was 13-2 on the horrible piece of crap SSIC(Bond and Jello Jay slapped together with Cheney and Addington).

Here’s how that went down:

Bush Ditto Heads on FISA aka Wussie Wussie Pansies who voted for the Bush Version of FISA on SSCI:

Kit Bond, Vice Chairman Missouri
John Warner Virginia
Chuck Hagel Nebraska
Saxby Chambliss Georgia
Orrin Hatch Utah
Olympia Snowe Maine
Richard Burr North Carolina
Bill Nelson Florida
Sheldon Whitehouse
John D. Rockefeller IV, Chairman West Virginia
Dianne Feinstein California
Evan Bayh Indiana
Barbara Mikulski Maryland

Given that Whitehouse was among these and is a Bushie on Intelligence Wiretapping revision, I wouldn’t expect such a vote.