FISA debate continues on the floor of the Senate. Sen. Kit Bond began his introductory portion today by insulting the Senate Judiciary Committee and trying to scare everyone with the potential threat to the telecom’s business reputation being besmirched by saying they failed to follow the law. Because, as we all know, the point of the Senate is to provide CYA to corporations whose legal departments failed to give them solid legal advice dspite their 6-figure salaries and expertise in reading clear legislative language.
Shorter Kit Bond: blah blah blah scary terrorists mean the Constitution no longer counts for me blah blah blah.
Good to know that "due process" means nothing to the GOP, but a Presidential veto threat is all powerful. Please let him not be speaking any more today, as his ill-informed, parroting talking points, garden gnome persona grates on my last nerve.
I hear through the grapevine that Sen. Clinton is not there to vote today. Not acceptable. Awaiting word on whether Sen. Obama will be there or not.
Dan Eggen sums things up thusly:
The temporary surveillance law — approved under heavy White House pressure — gives the government broad powers to eavesdrop on the communications of terrorism suspects without warrants. It effectively legalized many of the practices employed by the National Security Agency as part of a secret program approved by Bush in late 2001.
The White House and Republican lawmakers are pushing to make the law permanent while also adding legal protections for telecommunications companies, which face dozens of lawsuits. Most House Democrats and civil liberties groups strongly oppose immunity for the communications firms, but other Democrats — including John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.), chairman of the Senate intelligence committee — have backed the GOP position.
Reid said he is personally opposed to granting legal protections to the communications companies, but he has designated the intelligence committee’s bill as the starting point for Senate debate. Given the Senate’s composition, that decision means that opponents would effectively need 60 votes to strip immunity from the bill; Democratic aides concede they do not appear to have the votes to meet that threshold.
Please take the time to make calls or send FAXes to your elected representatives reminding them that their oath of office includes a promise to defend and uphold the Constitution — and that the foundation of American government is the rule of law. You can find contact information here. Will try to liveblog as we go below…
____________
SEN. FEINGOLD: Starts with a comment on how disappointed he is with the base bill being the Intel bill for S.2248, which is legally inferior — and how that makes this a much more difficult uphill fight to make it comply with constitutional requirements. (Jab at Reid there.) Then goes on to discuss the need for a balance of powers — the differences between the Intel and SJC bills has to do with the need for a balance of powers. SJC bill protects the privacy of law-abiding Americans. The Intel bill leaves it up to the executive branch to police itself.
Let me state as clearly as I can: the differences have nothing — NOTHING — to do with our ability to cmbat terrorism. It has everything to do with ensuring that the President follows the rule of law, and to provide checks to ensure that the President will not simply sweep up innocent Americans in a broad net. If you support the rule of law, you should support the SJC bill.
Sen. Leahy has made the changes necessary to address the WH’s "technical drafting" sniping — so there should be no whining about that from the floor. (Paraphrasing here. *g*) Going over specifics on the SJC bill: (1) protections for Americans overseas; (2) minimization procedures require implementation of court oversight — NOT in Intel bill, which means that government’s collection and dissemination would occur without any checks and balances, and Russ says "trust us" is not enough; (3) requires relevent IG to conduct complete review of the Bush illegal wiretapping program; (4) Congress must be given copies of FISA court orders and pleadings associated with them where significant interpretations of law are undertaken, so that Congress can provide adquate oversight (not being done presently); (5) protects Americans from widespread warrantless wiretapping — protections from "reverse wiretapping" without a warrant for surveilling an American as required by the 4th Amendment. Feingold says that McConnell said that reverse wiretapping violates the 4th Amendment — why does the Administration continue to oppose this when their own director of intel says that it is unconstitutional?
The DNI also said that bulk collections of communications data is unnecessary. (CHS notes: just say no to basket warrants, in other words.) The prohibition against bulk collections ensures that the gov’t has some particularized interest in a particular piece of data. SJC bill also has a sunset provision in 4 years, so that re-evaluation before the end of the next presidential term is done. Close statutory loopholes that the DOJ used for AUMF to be used as justification (CHS notes: the Dick Cheney grasping at straws loophole, so to speak.)
These changes have nothing to do with combatting terrorism. They have everything to do with ensuring that the President and his Administration are required to follow the law. That they are so strongly opposing this ought to give everyone pause in Congress. Time to stop being an enabler of lawbreaking, but that we ought to start being a protector of the rule of law.
SEN. BILL NELSON: Giving credit to Adm. McConnell and to Gen. Hayden for protecting the nation. Gosh, the leadership of the Intel Committee is great working in a bi-partisan fashion. That said, we want to protect rights to privacy – that will extend to Americans regardless of their physical location. As Sen. Feingold said, I also have a problem with the blanket immunity. There should be incentives for the telecommunications companies to cooperate with the US government — and the bill does give immunity for surveillance from 9/11/01 to 1/17/07. The problem I have with that is that I’m not sure that the telecommunications companies were "tending to their knitting" that they were getting legal authorization from the US gov’t. Says not in the first year, or even the 2nd or 3rd year afterward — this went on for a fourth and fifth year after the attacks. Not sure that they had the legal basis to say that the gov’t was, in fact, complying with the law. [CHS notes: Gee, ya think?] Refers to documents provided under national security seal, and says he has problems with justifications.
If bill has immunity in it, he will vote for the bill because protecting ourselves from the bad guys and at the same time protect civil rights of citizens. [CHS says: The insipid nature of this justification for my vote against what I just said argument is painful to type.] He’s now pimping his compromise amendment he’s co-sponsoring with Feinstein. (See here for analysis of it.)
There is a huge difference in the Senate and House bill "as the clock continues to tick toward the deadline." [CHS notes: Why on earth does he insist on getting panicky about a false deadline? The underlying FISA law goes back into effect -- there is no rush on this. But hey, who is counting on facts or anything?] Critically important that we pass this legislation.
Kit Bond now interrupting Hutchinson. There is a unanimous consent request brewing. Rockefeller asks that until 2 pm ET today that SJC amendment as modified be debated, with equal divisions of debate between Leahy and Hatch. No objection on this. Bond now asks that unanimous consent that some Hatch minions be granted floor privilege — and that two GOP speakers then be recognized, Hutchison and Brownback up next.
SEN. HUTCHISON: Gosh, the Intel committee has done a fine job. Yay you. Rises to support the Intel bill — essential to protecting our country. Back to the scary terrorists argument, never mind the facts…again. "Due to the sensitive nature of these issues, federal officials have barred the telecom companies from using certain materials in their own defense." [CHS notes: never mind that the material in question is in the public domain and that the Bush Administration re-classified the material to stifle the suit under a state secrets attempt to provide themselves with CYA, eh, Kay?] We all know that there are people in our country today who are plotting to kill innocent Americans — we must have the capability to give immunity to a telecommunications company to cooperate with the government to give them information. [CHS: and, again, Kay, the law gives the US government the ability to do this without a warrant for a non-US citizen immediately. For a US citizen, all they need is a warrant -- and they have a 72-hour emergency window to start a tap and get that paperwork completed already in the law. How, exactly, does any of this prevent the national security apparatus from doing its job? Fearmongering is unbecoming, especially when it is factually inaccurate and devoid of logic.]
SEN. BROWNBACK: Brownback now joining on today’s GOP talking point, that the SJC bill is on a partisan basis. I’d note that is true only because the GOP refused to engage on the constitutional discussion on anything other than partisan talking points — so pot, this is kettle, Sam.
blah blah blah the Constitution need not apply, but the President’s authority is everything to me — and allowing his politically appointed AG to rubber stamp his actions ought to be enough for everyone blah blah blah
SEN. DURBIN: Commend Leahy’s leadership on the right balance between national security and the rule of law. The President cannot simply have a pass to break the law whenever he pleases. Talking about the 30 day extension — and the McConnell objection to doing so. Says Reid was acting in good faith — hints that McConnell was not. Talks about the WH getting into the fray for political reasons — WH is obstructing, not Congress. Questions WH logic — either you want this or not, but your posturing is what is causing problems. Without some oversight, we will never know what has happened — the Administration launched a misleading propaganda campaign, talks about the lies documented by the Center For Public Integrity findings leading up to Iraq invasion. Discussing consequences for these lies and bad decisions. [CHS notes: Hello, WHIG.] Discusses WH tactics of manufacturing an emergency that does not have a basis in fact each and every time they want CYA cover of law. "How will history judge us granting amnesty?" Reject Administration scare tactics.
Talking about the OLC — and re-up of Stephen Bradbury to head it. Durbin says Administration’s dirty tactics, putting Cheney up as the scaremonger out in front of the charge, was one loaded phrase after another yesterday before the Heritage Foundation. Veep neglected to mention that 6 years after 9/11, that Khalid Sheik Mpohammad and others have not been put on trial — and some say that it will be impossible to convict them because of the torture techniques that this Administration okayed. We have not forgotten that Osama Bin Laden is still at large. We have not forgotten that the Adminsitration chose to go it alone rather than work with Congress to proceed in a legal, bi-partisan, stronger fashion.
We are a nation of laws, and not of men. Not this President or any other president. America is a lot better than the terrorists — and we should not sink to their level of conduct. The Veep and this Administration should stop politicizing national security issues. Do not yield to the politics of fear. Give the government the power to protect us and still uphold the rule of law. Support the SJC bill.
Am going to start a fresh thread momentarily…



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Round two!
Feingold!
go RUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSS
he makes me PROUD to be a democrat…others not so much
This is just regular deabte? not fillibustr? When does that start?
Feingold points out that the Telecons (I swear it sounded like he said that)have always had immunity simply by following the laws and the clear procedures they outline.
Christy, Jane et al., thanks for all of your effort on this — just popping in to say I’ve made my phone calls. Off to work, it’s killing me to miss this. Thanks for the live blog — I’ll catch up later as best I can…
did you see Greenwald? Rockefeller: ”we (GOP/telcos) will prevail” — http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
ugh!
B…b…but, he’s talking about checks and balances. Shouldn’t in chimp we trust?
Christy!
Feingold = ‘trust us’ is not enough.
Tried to find out where HRC is today. anyone know or know away to get around the fake site to one that has her schedule.
I’ve spoken with Voinivitch’s office. They appreciate my input, but he supports immunity. :-(
Boxturtle (Normally, GVV is as reasonable a Republican as you can get. I had hopes…)
Well Billy is in SC. No doubt you could get him to bloviate.
Shouldn’t in chimp we trust?
chimps? yes – The Chimp-In-Chief? (fill in your favorite expletive), No!
Unless you’re speaking of trusting GWB to screw us, of course…
Feingold: The President must follow the law.
Works for me.
Feingold’s speech here is critically important. He’s calling McConnell on his central lies–both that US persons can’t be wiretapped overseas and that they can’t do bulk collection.
This stuff is as critical as immunity, probably more.
epu from other post-
Help me out here, I try to stay in the background, you guys cover the bases and I follow the research. In this instance I can only come to one overriding conclusion and that is a vote to pass this bill with immunity and all the other ugliness intact is an act of treason and should be so stated to those we call. Please don’t flame me, if there is a better interpretation than that let me know, I frankly must be to stupid not to see it because throughout this eight years every time there is an important decision, one that directly effects our freedom, we have been defeated and those defeats have nothing to do with dem vs repug they have to do with the slow destruction of our democracy and those votes by dems that helped that process means they are all on the same page with no thought of freedom or democracy. The war on terror is not a war on terror from without, the terrorists are here and their terrorist acts are being committed against us.
reply
Clinton’s office is busy. Obama’s office put me on hold. I think they are getting swamped.
Anyone who “trusts” government is _____________. Fill in the blank!
http://www.bushorchimp.com/
meanwhile on the house side,
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..us.html?hp
Just got here. Is this debate up on CSPAN or something, online?
Come on Russ – get to the immunity part…
update: he didn’t address it at all, did he? Seems to be leaving it to that powerful orator, Bill Nelson…
Telecom immunity is a done deal. No one, and I mean NO ONE, can stand up to our Unitary Executive. The FISA bill is really just a courtesy that the Unitary Executive is giving congress. He really does not need their approval. As Unitary Executive, George Bush can grant immunity, enact and/or change laws, and determine punishment at will. Congress has been rendered moot and impotent. George W. Bush should dissolve congress and save the taxpayer some money. Money that could be put to better use. Money that could be used to buy munitions to use on Iran when we attack them. If we continue to fund congress, the troops will suffer. Imagine invading Iran without a robust enough bombing campaign to kill most of the population. Our troops would suffer. Suffering that only congress could mitigate by it’s dissolution. Support our Unitary Executives effort to dissolve congress. Our troops welfare depends on it
CSpan 2
Thanks.
:)
Got it.
Nelson doesn’t like the blanket immunity either.
Richmond @ 14:
The Bog Dawg is in his element these days. He really let the media have it yesterday. He’s loving politics as a contact sport.
Nelson – “Telecoms may not have been attending to their knitting”…
Powerful stuff, there Bill.
OT:
Looks like consumer (citizen) stimulus is going to be about 600 for adults and 300 for kids…no word yet on the Corporate tax breaks. Gonna get me some tax rebate cash to allow me to pay my taxes….
Nelson calling bullshit on the fact that it was an emergency after 9/11. “This went on for a 4th year and this went on for a 5th year”
Sent email to both Clinton and Obama stating that I am reading alot about their intentions as Executives to respect the Constitution.
“Trust the Executive above all” is found nowhere in the Constitution.
Nelson: Telcos not “tending to their knitting” in responding to gummint orders long after 9/11. They didn’t have legal basis to say gummint was complying with the law.
Nelson: I have read the classified and compartmented documents and I am not happy with them. But I will vote for a bill with immunity if that is all that is offered.
Crap!
GOD DAMN IT!
nelson says it’s more important to go after bad guy’s and would vote for immunity.
What happened to the Clinton – Obama stimulus package? From what you have said it looks like they are skipping FISA as well.
So the Consitution does not matter, the econ does not matter… what does?
Per Russ Feingold:
Emphasis added.
Retroactive immunity means that ANY civil remedy that Congress passes, on anything, is subject to reversal by Congress. Their own credibility is part of the balance here — not that they have much credibility to begin with, but “rule of law” becomes a joke when “the rulemaker” is willing to change the rule with retrospective effect.
Why should the public believe ANY law that purports to protect privacy?
Clinton’s office was busy for about five-six minutes but I waited and
talked to someone. Schumer’s office answered right away and I called
my Representative also.
Thanks so much for the great links in the earlier thread.
There is no political will to stop this monstrous administration. We are not going to be able to retroactively get rid of this wicked bill.
There is no coverage of this discussion that I can see on any of the msm sites I checked (cnn, msnbc, abc). But, while spending $275 million per day on war, the Bush administration is considering giving us tax rebates – and that seems to be the top story.
Impeachment has never been on the table. The dem candidates being considered for president are all 3 republican-lite. No change is coming. The U.S.A. is walking dead.
Nelson — whatever, I’ll vote for it.
EPA protects Corproate Oil et als from “States,” while some in the Senate want to protect Telecoms. A fine example “Corporate America’s” protection at the expense of the governed and the rule of law?
Corporate Usurpation of Constitution.
“Gonna get me some tax rebate cash to allow me to pay my taxes”
____
And, of course, if they do like last time — recall Bu’ush’s 2001 $300/person tax rebate? — the rebate will show up as taxable income on your next tax return. Cheryl and I donated our 2001 $600 to cancer support, and then had declare it as income in 2002. Yeah we got to “deduct” it, but only got a % of it.
But you, he is so embittered, and his red face and over the top self-indulgence reminds me of someone with a drinking problem.
…he’s too big of a wuss to say no to the President.
Feingold’s aide has a stack of papers about a foot thick that she’s carrying around….
Prediction: retroactive immunity and the utter sweeping of this shit under the rug.
But you know… is what I meant to say. S
Some Senators seem to believe it’s the US of AT&T.
I got Clinton’s office after a long hold. Her staff didn’t know whether she would support Dodd with more than words. They said many people had been phoning about her standing up. I practically begged her to get Clinton to use the national spotlight to defend our constitution and help her presidential campaign at the same time.
I left Obama a long and passionate message, but no personal contact.
Harkin’s office only said that he supported Dodd last time and assumes he will this time, but the senator hadn’t said more on it. Gave the same impassioned plea.
“We can’t pass anything here unless we get 60 votes and that’s a huge threshold.” Sen. Bill Nelson Thanks Harry. Nelson’s voting for the intelligence bill and he’s counting on the compromises that will be made with the House to strip the immunity. He hopes……
Nelson appealing to the House because they oppose immunity. Wants his Feinstein-Nelso amendment to be added to the conference bill. Yeech–too many loopholes in that one.
Hugh’s list?
The Onion report that he has announced his candidacy.
He’s a lying sack of shit.
That “D” beside Bill Nelson’s name seems to be blurring on my teevee screen.
Or maybe that’s just me.
WTF? Did they just agree to unanimous consent for voting on SJC amendment at 2 pm?
Hi LHP!
I posted something in the previous FISA thread that referenced you (@ 109). If you have any additional insight on my question, I’d appreciate it…
This is FDL, and Christy, at their best.
Le’s get ‘em. :o)
Jello asking for unanimous consent – vote at 2
McCaskill’s office was no problem. I simply said that I would like to encourage McCaskill to join the filibuster. The receptionist sounded aggravated.
Just used CREDO (see Christy’s last thread for the link) to email Reid and my two Maine senators. Then called both Senators (both DC and local offices, mainly they just count calls, so this doubles the impact). Collins’ DC office claimed that she had taken a stand against warrantless wiretapping–have to find out what that really means. Should call Clinton and Obama. If they said something, it would have a big effect, given the attention they get.
Corpgovernment!!!! Protecting me from me!!!
Kay Baily H – The Intelligence Committee worked hard!!! We have to support them cuz they worked hard.
Time for a phone break – 2 republicans up… oooooh, scary it will expire in 10 days, and our enemies will get us…our enemies won’t expire in 10 days…….unbelievable…believable it’s Kay Bailey Hutchison talking.
Good morning pups! Gonna be an interesting day.
If anyone officially associated with Hillary is reading this, my husband is going to vote for her on February 5. (I was relieved that he was going to vote for anyone at all after months of “None of the above” *g*) My husband is far from a card-carrying member of the ACLU. But he gets this issue. He understands that the telecoms should have known their conduct was illegal.
Kay Bailey Hutchison just complimented Harry Reid – what’s that tell you?
Oh yeah, she just discovered that there’s these new things called “cell phones”.
Can’t slip anything by her, now can ya?
I see my letters to Kay didn’t do a bit of good. Color me surprised. /s
The Dems will again cave.
The PAA is about the legitimizing of the surveillance state that Bush/Cheney have created. It’s already here. Telecoms did not participate in these programs for more than 6 years on flimsy legal grounds. They did so as corporate extensions of the government. There is no place where the telecoms end and the government begins. They are melded together. The government uses the telecoms for its purposes. The telecoms use the government to accomplish theirs. Immunity is an outgrowth of this relationship. The telecoms don’t believe they should be liable for what they did. They did not act in a private capacity but as the government. Specter’s proposal to substitute the government in law suits in place of the telecoms is an acknowledgement of this. The government is the corporations. The corporations are the government.
This is the essence of the issue that the current FISA controversy illustrates.
Our enenmy in addition to real terrorists is corpogovernment!!!!!
Even if we lose, and we probaby will, we have to make their victory costly. In particular, the capitulationists, especially Harry Reid, should pay dearly for BushCo’s immunity victory. The public should resent and vilify each and every one of them.
So if a cop asks you to break the law…… it is OK to break it!
“Gonna get me some tax rebate cash to allow me to pay my taxes”
____
And, of course, if they do like last time — recall Bu’ush’s 2001 $300/person tax rebate? — the rebate will show up as taxable income on your next tax return. Cheryl and I donated our 2001 $600 to cancer support, and then had declare it as income in 2002. Yeah we got to “deduct” it, but only got a % of it.
—
Yeah, me and my friend pooled it and bought our wheelchair bound friend a laptop. I mocked the 300 dollars against the 100,000’s going to the rich.
You know, I just can’t believe that this guy was EVER a Marine. Most of the Marines that I served with would die before they would anyone besmirch the Constitution.
Of course, the telecoms knew it was illegal. They have legal departments on tap. They just didn’t think they’d get caught.
I’ll focus my ire on the presidential candidates and their votes.
Kay – the gummint won’t give the poor telecoms the documents they need to defend themselves in court – so it’s obviously up to “US” to save them, because the Exec Branch won’t do it…
Gee, Kay, shouldn’t you be asking why the Exec Branch won’t show us their work?
Feingold!
Kay Bailey Hutchison: We need to destroy the Constitution in order to save it.
The Republican arguments demonstrate their usual tactic. They create a narrative which supports their point of view regardless of and despite the facts. So the telecoms were being patriotic. Ignore the criminality. Embrace the flag. All is forgiven. In fact telecoms should be praised for trashing our 4th Amendment rights.
Do you consider that there should be SOME minimum requirement to actually qualify for ‘least-worst’?
That is to say, for example; We have a FISA ‘bill’ that needs to reflect a very-strong, pro-Constitution based ‘prejudice’ in favor of fundamental civil rights, independent, co-equal branches of government and verifiable, genuine reasons to trust that ‘national security’ is envoked rarely and for reasons beyond embarrassment or to hide deliberate, criminal behavior.
Two candidates for ‘D’ nomination are not just anybody – they are actual U.S. Senators and, they, unlike you and I, CAN vote on this ‘bill’ and they CAN stand for what you and I firmly believe is necessary, for the literal survival of any chance at true, participatory democracy in this nation.
Now, I ask you, quite seriously, what more-important thing have these two Senators to do, than BE Senators, right now, today and for as long as it takes?
What claim have they to any of our allegiance when they offer no corresponding allegiance to what any thoughtful and considerate person
must clearly see as their, the Senators’, responsibility to be counted (upon).
Afterall, no one forced them to become Senators and they need our help to become President.
Right now, the country, the people and the Constitution need help.
What more is there to say?
Except: Consider consequence … (unintended, through dire …)
Hutchison is right about traitors within our country! Let Sibel Edmonds speak, you hopeless bitch!
Bear in mind that each Senator swears (or affirms) the following oath:
Simple answer, let the courts handle it on a case by case basis on the of facts. What is wrong with that KBH…………..
somebody tell DUMBASS KAY THAT cOLEEN rOWLEY uncovered THE PLOT and that the cia,AND fbi TOLD HER TO stuff it
KBH – we have people in our country plotting PLOTTING RIGHT NOW to kill other americans. This has been happening since 9-11.
You know what, this has been happening since before America was a country. You know, since before we had phones.
You have it about right. It is NOT about terrorism. It is NOT about “protecting US citizens”. It is about making money, holding power, and destroying pesky liberties and rules and laws that stand in the way of money and power grabbing.
This is NOT about Dems vs Rethugs. It is about those who actually believe in the Constitution and liberty and those that only believe in liberty for themselves (because they got the cash and power to be “free”).
If anyone officially associated with Hillary is reading this, my husband is going to vote for her on February 5. (I was relieved that he was going to vote for anyone at all after months of “None of the above” *g*) My husband is far from a card-carrying member of the ACLU. But he gets this issue. He understands that the telecoms should have known their conduct was illegal.
—
People already made up their minds and will not change them – all the candidates know this and they are pleased as punch that this the the first 100% no-issue campaign (with the exception of how high the wall should be).
Amen to every single word!
On a lighthearted note, my latest email from RedState bemoans the Senate Republicans caving to the Democrats on spending.
No “truth in advertizing” here, even with oaths!!!
The PAA is about the legitimizing of the surveillance state that Bush/Cheney have created. It’s already here. Telecoms did not participate in these programs for more than 6 years on flimsy legal grounds. They did so as corporate extensions of the government. There is no place where the telecoms end and the government begins. They are melded together. The government uses the telecoms for its purposes. The telecoms use the government to accomplish theirs. Immunity is an outgrowth of this relationship….
— Good point
Your husband’s vote is useless and harmful if he intends to vote for Hillary regardless of whether or not she actually shows up to fight this bullshit. No person “gets it” if they are willing to vote for ANYONE that does NOT fight fully against this atrocity.
If you believe Zogby, 14% of South Carolina voters are still undecided, for one.
That’ll be the day. Not holding my breath.
Brownback: Bipartisan blah blah, bipartisan blah blah, pass the SIC bill because it was 13-2 in committee instead of the SJC bill that was voted along party lines. What broken logic…
After the September 11, 2001 attacks, Rowley wrote a paper for FBI Director Robert Mueller documenting how FBI HQ personnel in Washington, D.C., had mishandled and failed to take action on information provided by the Minneapolis, Minnesota Field Office regarding its investigation of suspected terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui. This individual had been suspected of being involved in preparations for a suicide-hijacking similar to the December, 1994, “Eiffel Tower” hijacking of Air France 8969. Failures identified by Rowley may have left the U.S. vulnerable to the September 11, 2001 attacks.
Rowley testified in front of the Senate and for the 9/11 Commission about the FBI’s internal organization and mishandling of information related to the September 11, 2001 attacks. Director Mueller and Senator Chuck Grassley (R-IA) pushed hard and got a major reorganization, focused on creation of the new Office of Intelligence at the FBI. This reorganization was supported with a significant expansion of FBI personnel with counter terrorism and language skills.
Rowley retired from the FBI in 2004 after 24 years with the agency
Well put.
…but, but, but, the terrist gonna getcha!
Christy, I share your disappointment with Hillary’s absence. She’s close enough to DC that she should be there. It’s time for her to lead and this would be a good place to start. Either supporting the telecomms or wringing concessions from them on issues important to concumers and thereby breaking their stranglehold on the telecommunications market would go a long way in showing her independence from the corporations.
http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com
I’ll add – Let Sibel Edmonds speak at firedoglake!!
“There is no place where the telecoms end and the government begins. They are melded together.”
“Corpogovernment,” not good at all………………………
Brownback – The goddamned Judiciary Committee wants to get the fucking *Courts* involved – *and* the Attorney General!
“What kind of fucking heresy is that”? “Who’s makin’ the laws around here – Courts?”
thesepeople are lying
BIN LADDEN DETERMINED TO STRIKE IN THE USA ….LIARSSSSSSSSSSSS
But that’s the point. Hillary shouldn’t assume that she can cruise on the people she is already strong with because they don’t care. I know one person who does.
Exactly! How can they be too busy to fulfill their sworn obligation to “support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”
they had the intel,they IGNORED it
This shows the corruption of the Democratic Party. It’s weakness. Nelson knows this is wrong but will cave on it anyway. His duty is not to my safety but to the Constitution. If he defends the Constitution, then my safety will take care of itself because that safety is founded in the protections of the Constitution.
help! I cannot get c-span online. any other links?
If neither Obama nor Clinton supports Dodd on this, my support is going to Edwards. They won’t deserve my vote.
Or, if anyone is still undecided, this is one of the many things they will watch and listen to.
fear factor!!!!!!!!!!
Okay tried windows. Now I see Dick Durbin. Praise the godesss!
Durbin – It was the NY TImes that told us about this, not the administration. “They were caught with their hands in the cookie jar. Then they came to us and said ‘can you write a law?’”
It’s RedState. The definition of “caving” is therefore broad.
Thank you Senator Durbin — telecoms have been doing this for years. We only know about this because of the NYT. Now the Bush administration thinks its time to update the law — because they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.
Rachel Maddow was good on Olbermann last night repeating Ted Kennedy’s words about the veto. (Okay no more chatter.)
Here’s the link I’m using: CSPAN2
They are not. They are protecting the corporrate interests they need to get re-elected..
Richmond @ 44:
Yes he’s red in the face. But you can tell he loved sucking it to the media. Hillary’s campaign has let him loose to get into Obama’s head and turn him into a black candidate–something Obama has resisted doing.
It has all been worked out behind the curtains. If Russ, Dodd and the others really wanted to stop this, they would object to all unanimous consents. Debate everything…That is the nuclear option for a Senator, just object.
Durbin got one thing wrong- I sincerely doubt that Harry Reid was ever acting in good faith.
Exactly! Inscrutably, Democrats show weakness when they stand up to the president, and strength when they backdown and capitulate.
Durbin – 30 day extension to current law refused by Republicans. OT1H the country is in grave danger if the law expires OTOH extending the current law for 30 days is unacceptable.
Gosh, anything but that. The dems will give up on this as they have on every other bloody thing that has come that has any importance whatsoever. They continue to fund the illegal invasion, they don’t go after the law breakers in the WH, they are going to give immunity to the telcons and they are going to allow vast tax breaks for bidness while sticking it to the needy in their “stimulus” codpiece. Business as usual with HRC and OB hunkered down in their burrows while claiming to be “leaders”. We need to emulate the French, storm Congress and break out the guillotine. No mods, not literally!
they had memos..with the intel,they got through the FISA courts…the system worked….BUT they IGNORED the intel
Durbin. Powell has said close Gitmo?!? I am shocked.
I just listened as my senator—Bill Nelson—carefully explained the ‘merits’ of the Intelligence Bill amendment that will be offered as the Feinstein-Nelson amendment. The amendment, in essence, forgives Congress for its failure to provide oversight and hold accountable those who have successfully ignored the rule of law. It provides loopholes large enough to drive a tank through for any competent telecom lawyer. While avoiding the stigma of being labeled IMMUNITY, it provides the necessary wiggle room to grant, in essence, immunity. Disappointingly—and certainly impacting my future decision-making when Mr. Nelson seeks reelection—Mr. Nelson said, at the end of the day, he will vote FOR immunity if it is the only way to get the bill passed. Acting as my representative, he is willing to sacrifice MY liberty for MY safety, and thereby fulfill Franklin’s opinion that I deserve NEITHER.
The Constitution is a partisan document.
It has been very frustrating to see the media pick up this ball and happily confine Obama to a racial box that he has no interest in being in. If black voters support Obama because they are tired of this bullshit, more power to them.
Durbin begins by thanking Reid for bringing up the FISA bill then continues with a justifiable criticism of the Republicans specifically Mitch McConnell for refusing a 30 day delay since the bill will not pass House and Senate before the act expires Feb. 1.
This is what gets me about Durbin. He says he is against immunity and the PAA but praises Reid for engineering a process that ensure they will pass the Senate. Is it something in the water? Or is it that even Senators like Durbin think we are too stupid to notice?
Reid is the king of manueverese.
Oooh, Durbin nails both the Boosh signing statement watering down the anti-torture bill – *and* the 935 lies told by the admin to get us into Iraq.
attaboy!
Durbin hammering them about the 1,000 points of lying.
Sometimes loyalty can be stupid. I wonder if that’s Durbins problem.
9/11, spying on American, lying us into war, and torture happened under Republican rule.
Republicans endorse spying, torturing, the destruction of the Constitution and our rights. Any Dems voting with them are complicit.
OK Durbin it all sounds nice but where is your call for impeachment?
Yup. Good point, and I don’t think I have heard anyone anywhere saying it. Smart!
I actually agree with Maureen Dowd as far as the Clinton campaign trying to take the idealism away from the Obama campaign. This makes everyone look bad.
Durbin lists all the times they were gamed by the White House
FDL toobz acting up–duplicate sometimes triplicate comments…
The script was put together in the back rooms..you are just watching the play..the ending has been written.
I’m thinking a deal was struck. Immunity for spending.
Oooh.
They’re going to go after Durbin for saying that the Administration has yet to bring a terrorist to trial. Prepare for some Moussaoui/Padilla wails.
Good, he’s bringing up torturer Bradbury.
Durbin is wrong. The administration brought “MacTerra-ists” to justice. Sorry couldn’t resist. Poor Padilla.
Durbin’s been watching Olbermann?
Now hammering on MuKasey.
This boy had his Wheaties this morning.
Durbin now bringing up Bradbury (see emptywheel’s latest for the background)
I’m getting the very unsettling vibe that even we out here are prepping for a loss.
That kind of thinking really has an effect, whether you believe it does or not (even if you don’t, please be willing to be open-minded about it today).
The thing that will swing this for us will be if we hold the unshakeable belief that somehow we will prevail. We don’t have to know how we’ll do that. We just have to know that we will. The right actions will follow.
It’s a lot like a winning sports team (not in the sporting, but in the belief). The teams that win even late in the game have an absolutely rock-solid, unshakeable belief that no matter what the score, the other team doesn’t have a chance. I think anyone who’d watched sports knows that feeling from the outside.
Well, *we out here* have to have that feeling now. It’s clear that we and the Senators we support don’t right now, but if we’re hanging out waiting for them to instantly grow some spine then we’ve already lost. We already know *they* don’t have spine. The only question is: *** do we? ***
So we out here have to have that belief *first*, and we’ll be able to watch on C-SPAN as the Senate slowly swings our way. Doesn’t matter how bad it may look at any given moment – don’t give up. Envision immunity being defeated. Imagine the Senators, especially the unsure ones, being as solid in their defense of the Constitution as you are.
It’s not just about caring about the outcome, because all of us do. It’s about being committed to *will* the right outcome into existence, and take action from there.
If we can do it, and imagine them joining us, they will.
Now on to Cheney.
Congress enables this “corpogovernment” and in doing so aides and abets the usurpation of the the rule of law, under the color of law. Franklin and Jefferson must be “going nuts.”
He meant terrorist v. MacTerra-ist.
sorry for you folks in Florida to be represented by such a nelson
fixed it….
I’ve noticed that if I click on the “New Comments” link more than one time, I’m likely to get the multiple comments showing up. I think each time clicked sends another message to bring back whatever is new in the DB, which is why they show.
So I TRY to be patient and only click once and then wait for the DB to do it’s thing.
You are right and the Dems gave away the store there also..a few bucks for the people who need it and huge tax cuts for business.
The judge only gave Padilla 17 years, because he said Padilla hadn’t committed any specific acts of terrorism.
Woohoo!!
Mr. Cheney, where’s Osama bin Laden????
Instead of alway’s referring to “Senior Whitehouse lawyers” let’s name names.
Mr. Addington?
of committing treason……read the fourth amendment senators
Yes. I also wonder whether at some point people aren’t going to say, that they just don’t want to see Bill’s bitter blowups for the next 8 years. Everyone is saying he is helping her campaign by being the attack dog, but she looks weaker by it, and in the end, I don’t think a majority of voters (I am removing the Clinton partisans) will see Bill in a positive light. Also it is too easy to bring up Monica etc with him around her.
Hmmmmmm. On the one hand we have our constitutional right to privacy and on the other we have the telecoms’ business reputations, which face a “potential threat [of] being besmirched [for their failure] to follow the law.” Which way do you think Democratic presidential candidates will choose?
DURBIN knows,but so few have any conscience WHAT SO EVER
Speaking of Mukasey, Where is the restoration of independence to the DOJ? Why have all those Abramoff investigations stalled during this important election year? Patriotic Americans want answers. Sorry for the OT rant.
The Constitution has a well-known liberal bias.
Can’t wait for the Padilla appeal…
“Reject the policies of fear”.
Yeah – Mr. Neocon.
woooo hoooo…SNARLIN looks tehhhhh badly
OH NO – HAGGIS
Fuck.
Specter.
I’m going to go grease a truck.
Huh?
That’s the ugliest suit EVA
Mr. Cheney, where’s Osama bin Laden????
“this just in – Osama bin Laden is still dead…”
and he wears much more makeup then MITTENS who spent 100k on it
If Thomas Jefferson were alive today, he’d turn over in his grave. ;-)
Durbin is going through quite a list of instances of the Bush Administration’s acting in bad faith and how the Congress was gamed but, as I said before, he does not speak out against the current debate which is itself yet another example of the system being gamed by Harry Reid and Jay Rockefeller on behalf of Dick Cheney and George Bush.
he looks like he is on deaths door
When I look at Nelson I see Lieberman’s face superimposing itself over Nelson’s…fade in, fade out. Why is that, ya think? /s
Boxer tooling EPA
A lot of posturing but no one is willing to sacrifice they political career to stop it…that is the bottom line.
It is much more than just the telecoms being melded to the govt. I suggest you read “No Place to Hide” by Robert O Harrow for the details on just how widespread and all-encompassing the spying operations are against Americans. It is all defended by corporations as a way to make everyone’s life easier, to help target products and services to the right people, convenience for the “customer” etc. But it goes MUCH further than that and you are NOT allowed to opt out. They profile you psychologically, they watch your every single move and it all goes into databases. The government takes advantage of this (and the corporations are all to happy to acquire govt contracts) and spies on anyone and everyone they desire without having to do it themselves.
The Police State has been outsourced, and part of that is to outsource the domestic spying.
and the suit looks MUCH better than the sack of shitte in it ,no?
Watch your knuckles, nuckles. :)
gummy haggis
That whole trial that judge is a big WTF. Sorry, what a miscarriage of justic.
Rut Roh – Arlen talking about “accomodation” Whitehouse/Snarlen amendment?
Sadly, yes
When will a Democrat stand up and call out the GOP’ers for their hypocrisy? Why cannot a Dem Senator draw up an analogy of a Democratic President, working with Gun Manufacturers to locate all of the guns in America and confiscate them from their owners to help protect us from danger and terror. Any 2nd Amendment loving RedStater can understand those type of constitutional infringements and the underlying danger. Why is the 4th amendment any different?
Arlen – “there is no doubt that the telephone companies have been good citizens – in whatever the hell it is that they’ve done”
Jeebus H. Christ.
Yellow shirt Yellow tie is gonna make anyone look like Haggis.
thank you for the lol…im truly sad about all of this …just dayyyyyum
Oh my – that is brilliant
They match his suit perfectly.
Arlen: “state secrets” will be revealed in lawsuits. State secrets or sate stecrets?
Introducing Arlen-one-and-only and WH substitution.
hahahahahahaaha…wasnt SNARLEN in Pakistan when Bhutto was put down?
A little respect there, please. The woman had been a prime minister in Pakistan, and was not nor should she be referred to in “dog” language. Thanks.
Thanks, Helen.
Yellow shirt Yellow tie
Yellow? I was thinking of something more, umm, excretory.
What is Snarlin Arlen’s point? He wants to substitute the government for the telecoms in lawsuits. The government will not assert sovereign immunity but can use the state secrets defense. So the telecoms get off because the government takes their place then the government gets itself off by claiming state secrets. What he is offering is a transparent fig leaf. So again what’s the point? He might as well grant immunity straight out because that’s what he’s doing anyway.
Trying to be informed and patriotic by watching the senate on C-Span is making me nauseated
that is exactly what they did to her,and i respect her and her family immensly…thank you
ack. my computer keeps freezing… trying to do to much on too old computers… but i’ve been listening to every word.
anyone know if the republicans are going to filibuster or do they have a majority to block any of the immunity stripping amendments?
my apologies if this has been covered already, but i thought i’d ask while i have functioning browser.
Arlen is engaged in revisionist history here. He did try to bring the warrantless wiretapping program under FISA but then he made a deal with Dick Cheney to legitimize all of the program’s illegality. It would have been worse the current bill. But Arlen being Arlen he is actually taking credit for it.
LOL!
There was a unanimous consent that a move to proceed on the SJC version will be voted on this afternoon with no amendments. I believe this is the attempt to table it that people have been talking about. From there I am not sure where we are going.
also… is this part of the 30 hours of debate (being continued from dec 17) or was the ended by unanimous consent?
thanks hugh, the UC didn’t include a 60 vote majority requirement to pass the SJC version, did it?
Arlen can’t vote for the Leahy substitute because it doesn’t include retroactive immunity, immunity which he says he dislikes. Typical Arlen. Lots of words. The end result? Arlen caves as per usual. It is just that this time he has so much company among the Democrats.
Yes. You’re right.
OMG – gummy haggis
dodd up.
Richmond @ 44:
Yes he’s red in the face. But you can tell he loved sucking it to the media. Hillary’s campaign has let him loose to get into Obama’s head and turn him into a black candidate–something Obama has resisted doing.
—
Glad to see the former “leader of the free world” engaged in productive activity…groan.
Got through to DiFi on the fourth try- the staffer was nice enough, but tried to tell me about the amendment she was sponsoring. I told we all knew it wouldn’t pass, and that she should support Sen. Dodd’s filibuster.
OT – Listened to Whitehouse go after the EPA Admin. I wish all committee members would yield their time to him (except maybe Bernie Sanders, who’s pretty pugnacious).