FISA debate continues on the floor of the Senate. Please take the time to make calls or send FAXes to your elected representatives reminding them that their oath of office includes a promise to defend and uphold the Constitution — and that the foundation of American government is the rule of law. You can find contact information here. Will try to liveblog as we go below…
____________
SEN. SPECTER: This is a continuation of an important debate. While it is indisputable that our duty is to protect Americans. But it is also fundamental that Constitutional protections should be kept in mind at all times — separation of powers must be observed as it is a foundation of our law. This Administration has asserted its power under Art. II, and disregarded the laws under FISA and the Constitutional requirements of the Congress and the Courts to provide oversight. Congress has been ineffective on Congressional oversight, and the Courts have filled the void. A key part is whether there will be jurisdiction stripping of the federal courts on whether or not the telecommunications companies broke the law. Specter says courts should be kept open, while electronic surveillance continues. Says he and Whitehouse are offering an Amendment to that regard — substituting the US gov’t as defendant for the telecoms. [CHS notes: and the immediate state secrets attempt to shut down the litigation would be prevented how, Arlen?]
Says that the SJC has made several improvements on the Intel bill. [CHS notes: so much for that Kit Bond "partisan" BS line, eh?] Says it is important to keep the phone companies in the picture, so can’t support the substitute offered by Sen. Leahy without the Specter/Whitehouse amendment being adopted. If not adopted, will support retroactive immunity, although this isn’t his preferred course. Talking about how the NYTimes informed the Intel committees, not the Administration as required by law. It was more than a surprise, it was a shock. Violation of FISA and the National Security Act of 1947 — President asserts Art. II power, basic constitutional principle, but the determination of that does not reside with the President alone. Goes into a bit of self-back-patting on his efforts that came to naught. Goes into contempt proceedings and other problems with enforcing oversight needs for Congress…and the frustrations he has had with the Bush Administration being disrespectful.
Goes through the history of the court cases holding the Administration’s policies to be overreaches of power. And how the Administration’s hand has to be constantly forced to follow the laws. Talking about the 6/06 oversight attempts at Congressional oversight — and the Administration thumbing its nose at this. When it became known about the activities of the phone companies, he issued subpoenas, and then the Veep contacted members of the GOP on the committee behind Specter’s back to twist arms to protect the Administration’s flank. Asking that the letter Specter sent to Cheney be placed in the record — reading from it now.
FISA provides exclusive legal means of establishing wiretaps and other legal requirements. To ignore that under the assertion of Art. II power as a superceding power? Serious and unwise step to try and close out the supervision of the Courts — executive branch cannot solely determine appropriateness of actions under the Constitution. Costs of determining whether this was legal ought to be borne by the US gov’t, not the phone companies — says his amendment does that. Has noted particulars where the Leahy substitute makes significant improvements — but can’t support it due to a difference on the immunity issue as it stands at this point.
SEN. LEAHY: Appreciates comments from Specter. Notes that his amendment for the SJC does not preclude a discussion on the question of immunity for telecoms — it speaks to what the FISA court should do with regard to the information that comes before it per law. Leahy making the point that amendments would be allowed to be debated if the SJC bill goes through as the base bill vote — meaning those who think certain provisions are better in that bill should vote for it and it can continue to be tweaked later.
[CHS notes: This is a very good time to note that once immunity is given, it cannot be rescinded. That bell cannot be un-rung. And it should never be granted lightly or without appropriate restrictions and provisos in place to protect the public interest, first and foremost.]
Leahy yields to Dodd, with a compliment on his strong voice on the rule of law.
SEN. DODD: Talking about his history with Leahy and Specter in Senate. Says he spoke at some length on FISA amendments and what he thinks is most egregious provision — retroactive immunity. Object to that on very specific grounds — no covering up immense violations of law. Immunity is wrong because it represents a fatal weakening of the rule of law and concentrates power in the executive branch in contravention of the balance of powers. Talks about the fact that this Administration — or any other one, for that matter — should not have the ability to wholesale vaccuum every piece of communication regardless of a particularized need for it. There needs to be a tension between the courts, executive and legislative branch — to consolidate power in one branch is a dangerous concentration of power. When you have oversight among the branches, it strengthens the action of the government, not weakens it.
Terrorist surveillance must remain inside the law, not an exception to it. The Intel bill does not provide the necessary legal safeguards — it is far too weak, and the power that it concentrates in the hands of the executive are far too much. The SJC bill is much better. Both version suthorize the President to conduct overseas surveillance without individual warrants. Both allow President to submit procedures for newer surveillance to the FISA court for review. Only the SJC bill allows for real, meaningful oversight of Congress — what Congress has done for 3 decades with multiple amendments since the 1970s. Protecting the American public from those who would do us harm, while simultaneously protecting the rights of Americans and the rule of law.
The Intel bill fails on 5 counts: (1) safeguards against targeting of Americans — the minimization procedures — are insufficient. Intel version provides almost no deterrent, no consequences, where it is found that targeting procedures and rationale violate the law. Real oversight includes the power to enforce — and the Intel bill only offers the semblence of being able to do so, but with no teeth. Makes an analogy of catching a bank robber and then letting him keep the loot with a promise not to steal again. Immediate emergency authority to president to begin wiretapping in an emergency — everyone agrees that is essential. But what about non-emergency cases? President believes in permanent state of emergency, whether or not that is legal or justified.
(2) Reverse targeting is allowed by Intel bill. This is not legal — breach of 4th Amendment. This is why a prohibition against it must be clear, and Intel bill does not have this.
(3) Intel bill lacks strong exclusivity language. Without this, there is no guarantee that this Administration or any other will not make arguments that it doesn’t apply. See the Gonzales arguments that the AUMF gave authority, which are offensive arguements on their face.
(4) Unlike Leahy Amendment, Intel bill lacks strong protections against "bulk collections." Massive collection dragnet sweeping in even American conversations without probable cause or other rationales. Administration has been collecting e-mails, phone calls and other communications for five years without any oversight.
(5) Intel bill stays in effect until 2013 — through two Presidential administrations. When making such dramatic changes, we ought to err on the side of caution. Leahy’s SJC amendment restricts this to 4 years, giving us an advantage to tweak this as we need to change tactics for more sophisticated shifts in tactics of those we are trying to surveil for national security purposes. We need to review the process more frequently than waiting for 7 to 8 years.
Dodd says he understands that these are difficult issues with which members struggle. Need to look at the long-term implications. We are mere custodians on our rights and the rule of law — all of us admire immensely the work done by various Congresses over the year on the historic issue of the tensions between keeping us safe and protecting our rights. Striking that balance is what is so important. Quotes the Madison warning that the willingness to give up domestic rights is contingent on the threats from abroad, and that we must be conscious of not choosing between rights and security. We become more secure when we protect our rights, not the other way around.
National security decisions and the rule of law should not be argued on symbolism. This ought to cause all of us concern, and should not be done lightly. The Constitution is not a partisan document, it is a document that all of us embrace here. We should have the wisdom and ability to keep ourselves safe without sacrificing the rule of law. My concern is not just about the next year — it is for the years and years and years to follow. We are setting a precedent, and my passion on this issue is because we do not have the right to undermine the rule of law as custodians of the Constitution of the United States.
I leave you with a simple question: what would our Founders think? Why did they craft a system that ensured a balance of powers? If we walk away from that, we walk away from the founding principles of this nation. Urge colleagues to support the SJC/Leahy amendment.
SEN. CHAMBLISS: Oozes to the podium to object to Dodd’s position. Proceeds to question the ability of the FISA court to do anything with specialized knowledge on national security matters. [CHS notes: I'd love to see him try this argument face to face with the judges who handle national security matters on a day-to-day basis. In fact, I'd pay money to watch that unfold at a cocktail party...I'm just saying.]
Quorum call…
SEN. BOND: Back up again. Clearly, the GOP is going for the kill the opposition with boredom approach. blah blah blah the rule of law need not apply, because terrorists scare me blah blah blah [CHS notes: Good lord, I'd love to see what Churchill would do with this idiocy. As a reminder, here is Kung Fu Monkey's awesome summary of the current GOP mindset.] Now yielding to Orrin Hatch. And I need much more coffee…
SEN. HATCH: Allow me to kiss Bond and Rockefeller because, gosh, they are fabu.
I’m going to start a fresh thread momentarily…
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thanks for pushing this through the headlines again.
Christy!
Smoke and mirrors
*BELIEVE*
i hate these CAREER LYING poopheads
I’m tryin’ hon, I’m tryin’.
Specter makes my head spin, and his dun colored ensemble is not a pretty sight.
ohhhhh with reluctance you lying scumsukker,you are dying of Cancer…clear your conscience before you come to Jesus
Specter… will support immunity, even though it’s wrong course. What a turd.
J-Men Forever.
Sphincter is so full of crap he confuses himself.
GAWD – he is brilliant at making no sense. Saying one thing should be done and then saying he’s gonna do the opposite.
I realize that I’m talking about Arlen, but this one blew me away – “I’m sure that the telephone companies have been good citizens – in *whatever it is* that they’ve been doing.”
that’s gotta be at least in the top five stupidest things he’s ever said…
Thanks, wdd. I can feel it.
See, we just doubled the size of the choir in a few minutes – I told you folks it works. ;-)
Sphincter is so full of crap he confuses himself.
that’s the closest anyone has come to correctly describing the color of his suit…
Arlen – Subpoena’s don’t work with this administration. Gee, ya think?
Anyone know Obama’s 20? McCain?
I would include that you want the right to recover property that might have been stolen under cover of “official bussiness’
intelectual property is property and if they are given immunity it means they can keep data that they’ve taken from us and use it however they want, for profit, for blackmail, for anything
Tim T says Hillary is not coming back for the vote.
Its a mixture of gerbers peaches and gerbers peas reconstituted
seems like my comment was dissapeared
Pelosi sold out on the “stimulus” pkg.
link
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.c…..pointment/
I strongly object to your bringing his cancer into your rant. Nobody chooses to get cancer. Have a heart, this is a fellow human being. It could be you someday, do you want people to treat you this way?
Spector tries to act like he wants to do the right thing — then always ends up voting with the Republicans.
Shorter Arlen Specter:
Bush broke the law, and has been undermining our Constitution, but I’m still going to be a good little capitulation monkey and give him anything/everything he wants.
This is just a big Whaaaaaaa! session for Specter…
Specter: Payback to the Bush admin for supporting AIP*C war policy in the ME.
he is a very sick man,and if he had any conscience what so ever,he would HELP the American public in its time of NEED…many many people are suffering his ills without medical care…WITHOUT medical care
If only it could be so. He certainly has verbal diaorreah.
Wait a minute!
The “US governemnt” is the people — is us. So he wants to substitute the plaintiff for the defendant??????
Hey, hey!
DFA e-mail for ActBlue:
No more blue-dogs!!!111
The Democrat is a creature that displays strength and honor by capitulating, boys and girls.
yes children too,how did he vote,when it came to sick little children,who really need and HAVE my sympathies
Is there precedent for the ole switcheroo he proposes? USG < Telecoms</p>
“Bush broke the law, and has been undermining our Constitution, but I’m still going to be a good little capitulation monkey and give him anything/everything he wants.”…but look at all the stern rebukes I have made in the past before capitulating on your past criminal acts.
He follows the same pattern time after time after time. This is disgusting.
these people have NO heart
Specter: “I’ll have to swallow.”
Well if that doesn’t just sum up the Congress, I don’t know what does.
Bring on Dodd!!!
So Arlen calls corporations citizens. And Kay calls citizens consumers.
they are OK with it….we are the majority…if they WANTED to…they would CHANGE things
As you wish
Give em hell Senator Dodd
Can anyone come up with an analysis political or otherwise on what Arlen is doing with this Arlen/WH ammendment and the speechiness as given above of his trials and tribulations with the WH. Any insight into this guys mind?
Dodd up. Praise God/Goddess.
Why the hell do the others get microphones and Dodd gets to yell?
Dodd dropping science. What are the odds of any of this piercing the MSM blackout on FISA?
Dodd has a microphone — they are attached at the lecturns by and large. He’s just keyed up, I suspect.
(whispering to Senator Dodd – “Due Process”)
Move on e-mail asking us to call
Clinton(others will call Obama)at her campaign office 703) 469-2008
Off to make this call
He must have heard you Smgumby. He’s using his microphone.
I’ve been checking MSNBC all morning. Not a mention one.
o/t whitehouse rocking the EPA hearing now…talking to johnson is like boxing with smoke.
Well that’s better then.
Easy there Dodd. Speak easier. You need to save your voice for the long, long, long night.
cspan2 WMP version works on linux with xine!
Go Dodd!
Dodd: Scrap intelligence version on (five specific counts). Adopt proposal of Leahy.
Sorry Arlen.
Hello all– Christy, thanks for doing the play-by-play. Just called Boxer’s office, their response was “we’ve been getting a lot of calls like this.” So our job right now is not to hang around making comments, but get on the phones. Let’s all try to make a dent in this, because this is one of the ones that really count.
That said, I’m going back and make a couple more calls. Thanks, snowbird, for the Clinton campaign number!
I have to say this has put me in a horrible mood. The number of our “representatives” who have obviously failed their country, their constitution, and their constituents sickens me.
Thank heavens for Dodd, Feingold, and a few others.
Late to the Lake today, but been busy ;->
Thank you Christy for wonderful posts on this.
Terrific comment thread also, even tho I haven’t had time to catch up with all.
Confession to IrishJim, if you’re still around. Your comment previous thread that Helen properly called “brilliant” was indeed(!) I changed wording just a tad so it wasn’t exactly copied, and fired the idea off both to Reid and to OH Sen. Sherrod Brown.
I hope that’s o.k. with you.
Heaven help us if we can’t put the brakes on this administration. Reid’s rope-a-dope strategerie is driving me batty! Can he not see how useless, and downright dangerous it is?!
YAY DODD! DODD FOR MAJORITY LEADER! NOW!
On to the phones.
How long can a filibuster last? At what point would it be successful?
Good point.
Let’s not forget to send kudos and encouragement to Dodd AND all those who are showing support for him.
It can go on until Reid decides to cry “uncle!” or until it is too late to pass the bill before the old one expires. Hopefully it would end by either of those means rather than giving up (due to exhaustion) by Dodd and Co.
DiFi’s line is busy. Lots of people must be flooding the line to support Dodd.
intelectual property is property and if they are given immunity it means they can keep data that they’ve taken from us and use it however they want, for profit, for blackmail, for anything
—
It really means they are just going to keep doing it, and continue using the data for all sorts of things. Heck, study herd behavior, whatever.
Looking for a link for Chris Dodd’s widgets. I’m all fired up now at our absentee senators.
Which other Senators are on Team Dodd? Where’s Obama?
Thank you.
Ain’t happenin’. You may have missed the story from earlier this week where an inmate in Kentucky lost an appeal for trying to sue the guards over stealing his Koran. The Supreme Court basically gave the guards immunity as it was while doing their jobs. Very short step from there to blocking the suits against the TelCos by saying they were “acting in good faith.”
i don’t think there is any filibuster is in progress. aren’t we back to non-filibuster process now?
So Arlen calls corporations citizens. And Kay calls citizens consumers.
—
Oh, God.
Want to thank all of you offering play by play of the hearing. Stuck here at work.
The ‘End of the Cold War’ dividends have stopped.
We’re living in the New, Inverted Soviet.
The Corporations have merely acquired the Government.
When do the military parades start?
Will we hold them on 9/11?
On the campaign trail expousing hope and change while doing nothing to encourage and enable those qualities.
Just reached a staffer in Obama’s office – took a page from ‘outraged’s remarks about Obama-as-Constitutional-lawyer, posted ca 7:58 this a.m. – and told her that I personally was an undecided NJ primary Dem and that there are a lot of Dems in the upcoming NJ primary who will be watching to see if Obama takes the time to come up and speak/vote; that it appears Hillary will not and that merely ’supporting’ the anti-immunity bill is not enough to convince Dems who are looking for action by a candidate willing to take action and distinguish himself as pro-active instead of always being reactive to Hillary’s actions. Staffer actually listened; asked me to wait when she put me on hold, then came back on and talked a bit more.
HHHHHhhhmmmmmmmmm…. can something be read into this? hope springs eternal.
Obama is hiding, of course. That will allow him to triangulate afterwards.
Where’s Clinton? Where’s Edwards? I realize Edwards cannot vote, but he could be making some noise to at least get the media to cover this.
They are all applying for the job of POTUS. They want us to vote for them to lead us. Yet they show no leadership.
No to retroactive immunity.
Now I realize CSPAN 2 has been fragged and replaced with CNBC so I can learn how to make lots of money!
Here you go: http://chrisdodd.com/filibuster/call
thank you, eg
i love it when dodd says that our rights make us safer.
redX – what’s the problem with c-span?
“The Corporations have merely acquired the Government.”
You mean “usurp” the constitution!!!
IIRC about thirty hours..It won’t be successful because there are enough votes for cloture. I think Reid has worked it out so this kabuki will run its course so they can cave in on the stimulus pkg next week.
The tip off for me that this is scripted, is that the people who oppose this have other methods to gum up the works which they aren’t using. Such as objecting to any and all unanimous consents, quorum calls that make the Senators show up and be counted, etc.
Hello. What’s this from Harry Reid via TPM?
So Reid is going to somehow make it a 51 vote threshhold to remove immunity. And if the Republicans can’t preserve immunity by gathering 50 votes, they can save it by filibustering, which takes 60 votes to end. But he’s not going to back down to the threat of a filibuster from them. He’s going to make them actually filibuster. Okay!
“In Washington today, telecom lobbyists have launched a full-court press to win retroactive immunity for their illegal eavesdropping on American citizens. Granting retroactive immunity will let corporate law-breakers off the hook and hamstring efforts to learn the truth about Bush’s illegal spying program.”
“It’s time for Senate Democrats to show a little backbone and stand up to George W. Bush and the corporate lobbyists. They should do everything in their power — including joining Senator Dodd’s efforts to filibuster this legislation — to stop retroactive immunity. The Constitution should not be for sale at any price.”
John Edwards
I used to get 1 & 2 and now I can’t find CSPAN2! I am looking if they moved the channel. Right now on CSPAN its some energy/EPA discussion – no DOdd.
Dodd is correct…………………
Chris Dodd….kicking ass and taking names! Gawd I love that man. :-)
Okay, back to work. Darn it.
You jest of course. The idea of MSM covering anything that Edwards says is laughable.
Call me doubtful.
What Constitution?
i LOVE THIS MAN so very much
Since they got unanimous consent for the 2 pm vote on the SJC version becoming an amendment to the SIC bill, does that mean only 51 votes are needed for that? Didn’t the bad guys need to object and filibuster to achieve the requirement for 60 votes on this? (Isn’t this also what wigwam said @83 while I was composing this?)
Suxby Chambliss up…
Me too. I want to marry him. LOL And marry Russ Feingold as well. :-)
Figures, telelcoms block viewing Dodd! Comcast a Telecom is compromised!!
news to me, via TPM:
Thanks I express my disappointment with Obama and move on to Hillary. Last but not least. Unbelievable opportunists they can’t stand with Dodd. Where’s ted kennedy?
There is a 30 hour cap on the proceedings once cloture is invoked and they don’t have the votes to prevent cloture.
SAXBY CHAMBLES!!
I can’t believe that CSPAN2 dissapeared off my – cabal.
Kinky!!
If a John Edwards speaks in a forest, and noone reports it, does he make a sound?
oh my. you too?! thymewannah took over here when adelphia went belly-up.
one of their 1st stinky
littleBIG moves was to remove CSpan2 from the lineup for non-digital customers. I could just…..#*@%&*!!! But instead, I turned off the telly & called it up on the toobz. dang telecoms! citizens my #$$! PFFFFSSSSSTZ!and Keif,and Michael Douglas,and,and…
In general, perhaps there should be a phone campaign directed at the networks to get them to cover this very real debate.
cspan 2 won’t load here…argh! thanks for blogging you guys.
I was hoping Edwards would challenge Clinton & Obama to vote on this bill when he was on KO last night.
it is NOT in their intrest
Saxby Shameless
redx I was all over this when comcast made the move. You have to get the unpgraded package!!!
I can’t believe that CSPAN2 dissapeared off my – cabal.
—
Found it in the 200’s, it used to be stacked right with MSNBC, CNN, Fox, CSPAN1…but they took it out and left that number (nothing on that channel now) and the next channel up is CNBC.
Punks. Moved it to the 200’s
Confederate Pig.
What is some people’s complaint with CSPAN-2? I am watching CSPAN-2 right now. No problems.
247
SHAM…BLES
CSPAN 1 and 2 were moved from my lower channels (15 and 23) to some obscure, difficult to find upper channels.
cable or internet?
since when has a “good-faith belief” that one is acting lawfully provided a valid legal defense? Especially when that conclusion has come from the Legislative Branch?
If thet make me get an upgrade package…. oh boy that would be a real chesnut. Pay more than 1000 dollars a year and don’t even get CSPAN2…
I don’t claim Saxby as my Senator, and have not for the last year or so. I have corresponded with him repeatedly on the PAA, and he is as stubborn as a mule and refused to respond to facts with anything but fearmongering.
same here. from 4 to 80. only have cspan1 too.
The plan, pay for it now….. and keep america dumb!!!! Interesting we are discussing telecoms immunity!
You can watch CSPAN2 online.
this can’t be part of the 30 hours if they’re voting on an amendment today.
dec 17 about 10(?) hours was used. i thought it had ended by UC that evening. but, i’m not sure now – i couldn’t find the language last night when i looked (although i didn’t look very hard).
if there was no UC and the 30 hours of debate was being picked up where it left off – then the clock started again last night. that doesn’t add up to 30 hours before the scheduled vote this afternoon.
that’s why i asked earlier if we were still in the 30 hour period or was that ended by uc.
Quorum call … anyone there?
I called Kennedy who’s on board; called Dodd to thank them; Reid’s office is feisty and rude today. They’ve clearly been hearing it (good news) and are deeply annoyed (possibly good or bad I don’t know).
I am not sure what he is saying but anything that is debatable can be filibustered and require 60 votes for cloture. Amendments can be defeated by a “motion to table” which is not debatable and requires only 51 votes.
All this just tells me is that we need to know .e.x..a.c.t.l.y. what the telcoms did
and what the White House did
and tried to do
and wanted to do
and . . .
fucking right, the brazen bullshit of these corporations, they have no decency!!!
What does it say that I had no difficulty getting through to Obama’s number but Hillary’s took several attempts? Hillary did have some nice chamber music though while I waited after finally getting through (presumably due to a study showing the calming effect of such music on constituents).
Called Clinton’s office and told them she’d lost my vote because “if she can’t show up in the Senate and do her job, she’s not Presidential material.”
Next, Obama…
(Already called my Senators, Whinybitch – no joy; Sherrod Brown – hurray, against both retroactive immunity and basket warrants.)
Results of two phone calls:
Cardin, Benjamin L. (D-MD). Staffer said Cardin opposes immunity, but could not say if Cardin would join in Sen Dodd’s filibuster.
Mikulski, Barbara (DINO-MD) Staffer said Mikulski is supporting the SIC version and will not be supporting Senator Dodd’s filibuster.
nope. that’s what dodd did on dec. 17th that through everyone for a loop. since there was a uc for the vote this afternoon, i figure they’ve done the whip count and think they can block with w/o requiring 60 votes to pass.
and… is doing.
Thanks for clarifying that the Consititution is dead Kit (Bond).
I haven’t a clue of where they are in the final process of the Kabuki but the 30 hour cap would start when the cloture is invoked for the vote on the final bill, I think.
I’m getting cspan one (EPA hearing) on TV in lower channels. I cannot get cspan 2 on the internet. I’m going to go hunt on the higher TV channels….
What has happened to Mikulski? I always thought she was a liberal/progressive.
selise.. as a primary data person, do you have a copy of the CRC Filibusters and cloture in the Senate?
yes. if anyone wants to block the sjc amendment with less than 40 votes – they needed to object to the uc and then there would have to be a cloture motion on it…
i’m assuming that today’s uc was for a simple majority – it was when a uc was proposed on dec 17 for a 60 vote requirement (without going through the process of cloture) by reid, and dodd objected that was, imo, the key moment in the debate.
what i don’t get is why is first vote this afternoon. would like to track down what happened to the 30 hours (i still think there was a uc, even if i can’t find it at the moment).
Where is Barack? Where is Hillary? Where is John Edwards? (yes, I know he can’t vote, but he can BE there).
Where are those who want to lead us but can’t bother to show up?
Was that Chambliss who argued that government employees know what they are doing and so need no oversight? I thought Republicans were supposed to be distrustful of government and its ability to do anything right. I guess I was wrong. Since everyone is government does everything right all the time, we could dispense with most of the federal courts and sharply reduce the activities of Congress. Why tinker with a system that’s perfect?
Kit Bond – “I can assure you that we enjoy our intelligence oversight task”… yeah, the same way people enjoy watching daytime soaps. Vicarious fun!
Oh They are taking a vote.
Here’s my hastily written letter to Sen. Obama (lost in action on the campaign trail.)
Until he got to the immunity pretzel, Specter’s speech as laid out by CHS was a model argument. Waverers should all listen.
I’m watching CSPAN-2 on the inter-tubes.
you’re going to want to shoot me, but i just signed up for cable tv (it’s just for local stations and cspan-1 and c-span2) for $5/month. today is my first day of watching it.
It is my understanding that the current issue before the Senate is the Leahy Amendment which will be voted on this afternoon. Any filibuster on SSCI version is yet to come.
See comment #84 for Edwards’ input.
I’m bringing up my slightly altered version of IrishJim’s nifty strategy he proffered downstairs. It’s well worth a repeat imho. I’ve already sent it to Reid & Brown (latter already on-board with Dodd – YAY!).
Paraphrased & slightly altered from IrishJim:
For finding the time, I made a “WTF?” comment when they made that agreement. I think it was on the first thread of the morning. I’ll go back and look and get you the timestamp if that helps.
I’m getting cspan one (EPA hearing) on TV in lower channels. I cannot get cspan 2 on the internet. I’m going to go hunt on the higher TV channels….
—
Don’t be afraid to go really really high up, maybe channel 666 or something.
kinda wobbly spine, from what i’ve heard…
this was helpful to me.
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/005130.php
96 on Charter
Finally got through to DiFi’s office, and boy oh boy was that staffer testy. DiFi’s released a statement about her own amendment allowing the FISA court to determine whether telecos would get immunity. She does not have a position on Dodd’s filibuster. What a waste of a senate seat that woman is.
omg listen to hatch. the party is over. they sold their souls along time ago. god help us all.
Orrin Hatch a not so closet fascist is up blathering. Disagree with Republicans is partisan. Roll over for the Republicans is bipartisanship at its best.
Now warning of Presidential vetoes. Who the f*ck cares?
GODDAMNED HATCH! I don’t WANT nor NEED you to play big Daddy to protect me from brown dudes in rags.
I DON’T WANT YOU PROTECTION IF IT MEANS GIVING UP A SINGLE FREEDOM. Period. Full stop.
Hatch needs to go away. Doesn’t he have a music career to advance?
god I loathe Hatch.
you’re going to want to shoot me, but i just signed up for cable tv (it’s just for local stations and cspan-1 and c-span2) for $5/month. today is my first day of watching it.
—
Not shoot, salute. Good work HIM selise.
Great to see you back with great info selise.
On some issues, I suppose she is, but on civil liberties and constitution protections she is an absolute abomination.
lol. found it.
Shut up, Orrin. Does he really believe the garbage that spews from his mouth? I’m so sick of the word “bipartisanship.” Bipartisanship is just code for “whatever the republicans want”
But, but… he has an easel. And visual aids. ;)
no. do you think it would be helpful? can you give me a link? it might be a great read if it was updated for this congress’ rules.
… and i’m thinking you are right – this is kabuki. why the uc for the vote this afternoon? but maybe i just don’t know enough yet about what’s going on today to fairly judge.
Jane (if you’re here):
I sent you email…
It’s at 11:14 am Eastern, so I would look at your recording from around 11:05 forward.
Maybe I’m not meant to watch today. I found cspan 2 finally and there’s oral opening his hatch to say you dems should agree with us for bipartisanship.
don’t remember hearing quite so much about bipartisanship when rethugs had the majority
Hatch now saying that the Intel version is the most oversightediness bill in the history of the world. It has so much oversight I wonder he doesn’t think it will strangle the bill’s effectiveness.
Re: the 2:00 p.m. vote and a need for a simple majority. Senator Reid has given a “green light” to use a motion to table. We don’t know if the 2:00 vote is on passage, or on a motion to table. Either one runs on a simple majority, but there is one HUGE difference. A motion to table is not debatable, and Senator Dodd could NOT mount an objection, or force cloture (on that particular vote) if a motion to table is offered.
The obvious conclusion, you numbnut Hatch, is that if the Prez will veto it, then it isn’t that important to him. Clearly, spying on foreign terrorist suspects isn’t the priority or Bush wouldn’t threaten to veto a bill that allows spying on FOREIGN terrorist suspects while NOT permitting spying on Americans (no matter where they are). Clearly the desire is ONLY to avoid legal jeopardy AND permit spying on Americans sans probable cause and warrant.
Hatch. Goddamn you, you fucking criminal idiot.
up? 707! ;->
YAY! selise
Fuck bipartisanship.
again o/t. A handful of governors (both R and D! that’s bepartisanship!!) appeared before the senate EPA committee to voice their strong support of California’s standard and denounce the EPA denial…the only person talking in favor of EPA is the AG from ta da! Michigan. Hmmmmm. auto money talking, ya think?
OT:
“Pollster John Zogby: “The Democratic race in South Carolina is reminding me now of the beginning of the old Buffalo Springfield song: “There’s something happening here/What it is ain’t exactly clear.”
“Obama maintains a 15-point lead, but he has dipped under 40%, losing ground, including a few points among African Americans. And nearly one in five African Americans is now undecided with just three days to go until the election. Still, his is a commanding lead with just three days to go.
“Edwards, meanwhile, has had his second good day since the Monday night CNN debate, in which he delivered a strong performance. He hit 19% support on Tuesday alone and then 27% support on Wednesday alone. And, on Wednesday alone, he pulled ahead of Clinton overall. He has pulled ahead among whites. Could he pull ahead of Clinton and finish in second place? Even with a strong showing here, where does he go next to take advantage of the momentum?”
i guess since the leahy amendment is an amendment to the SSCI version, i’ve just been considering this all part of the process of the SSCI amendment to fisa. maybe i am using the wrong language?
new thread upstairs
Hatch: Reverse targeting as always been unlawful. Wink, wink, nudge. say no more.
to fdl mod
I can reload the comments. I would email you but i am afraid i will lose comments so Thank you so much
I had the same problem on Comcast (Boston suburbs).
Starting 1/1/2008 (I believe) Comcast removed CSPAN-2 from basic cable and extended basic cable.
Now to see CSPAN-2 COMCAST requires you to buy the high definition cable package. I don’t think it was changed as an incentive to switch to high def (Nature shows in high def maybe would make more sense), so COMCAST’s timing certainly is convenient for them…
GOod thing for internet CSPAN access.
Reminder to the Republican Senators who talk about ‘our rights’:
No immunity for Bush/Cheney (the telecoms already have fake immunity by Bush’s see-through ‘certification’ of legality. The telecoms will be just fine).
Insist on minimization procedures to protect Americans’ privacy rights at home and abroad.
Reid will not be able to escape the clear logical conclusion that he is, in fact, a GOPer working for Cheney if he brings forth a motion to table. He has wiggle room if he brings a motion to vote.
go Edwards!!!
Here’s my latest 500 word effort for the cause:
Dear Senators:
Today is a very important day for the Senate; it’s a very important day for the citizens you represent, too. The questions before you involve the gravely important matter of national security, but it also includes consideration of the lofty ideals inherent in our democracy: the rule of law, the separation of powers and how a Presidential over-reach can hold the entire Congress, my Representatives all, hostage to Presidential fiat. Senators Dodd and Feingold and others have already declared on the side of their constituent’s rights as citizens. They are showing the leadership I want to see, and I am watching closely, and am very proud of their efforts to do what our forefathers expected them to do, fight for the Bill of Rights. Today is the day when leadership counts, and I want to see who else is ready to stand up for the rule of law. Who is willing to say no to a President who demands retroactive immunity for telecom companies that conspired with agencies of the Administration to infringe the rights of the citizen? Who is willing to require the telecoms to do what every other citizen must do: tell their story to the judge in a duly authorized court whose job it is to sort out whether laws were broken? Several of you are candidates for President or may be involved in reelection campaigns. Well, now is the time that you can prove whether you have what it takes to be a real leader and whether you can stand up for the high ideals upon which our society was based.
As Senators, you have taken an oath “to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and dometic,” and to “bear true faith and allegiance to the same.” Today your country is requiring you to live up to that oath. Make no mistake, to grant retroactive immunity is to usurp the role of the Judiciary Branch of Government and to conspire with the Executive Branch in doing so. That is not a matter you can rationalize or slip around on. I have no problem with the government wiretapping anyone or everyone, as long as they do it legally with probable cause and a warrant. To grant immunity to potential lawbreakers because the President tells you that’s what he expects you to do, and the laws that were potentially broken infringed the citizens’ civil rights, then your allegiance was to the President and not to the Constitution or the citizens you represent. Not showing up will not suffice; voting present will not suffice either. You must stand and be counted to show leadership. I can honestly say that I will not vote for anyone who votes in favor of retroactive immunity for telecoms under any circumstances; nor will I vote for anyone whose actions or inactions were responsible for allowing it to happen. Those are the political facts. I hope those facts impart the wisdom of a Statesman to you, and tell you resoundingly what you must do. Thank you.
hey tw3k! thanks, but i am so unprepared for today.. thought it was going to be next week. major thanks to ES who emailed me to tell me what was going to be up today.
BTW, how do mormons feel about cloning?
i dunno. just asking…
To “this can’t be part of the 30 hours if they are on an amendment,” cloture can be invoked multiple times and at various places in the parliamentary procedure. It is not uncommon to have multiple cloture votes, on multiple amendments within a given bill. Cloture isn’t a one-shot deal that is only applicable to the underlying bill.
Hi Selise, Hope you are not working to hard. Enjoying Hatch’s dramatics for big brother? You were missed.
(I have too many windows open, and typing is seriously hampered.)
G*d don’t give that guy 30 seconds! Not another second. Wahahaha
i understand that. my question was on the one specific cloture motion we’ve had so far.
Comcast….. pay more for access to c-span 2 while keeping America dumb!
Identical experience w/ “scumcast” here!
The UC agreement to vote at 2:00 p.m. was adopted late this morning. Since it is “fresh,” there isn’t a written record of it (available to download or view).
There hasn’t been a cloture motion on any aspect of this bill. Not yet at any rate.
Selise,
Good to see you! I wanted to thank you for all the work you put into assembling all those phone and fax numbers and making them usable for the Outlook Express Address Book. I just sent through a broadcast fax 17 copies of what I just posted in #187, and your work certainly saved me a lot of time and effort. I hope it saved a lot of time and effort for many of us. It’s so much easier to set up an Address Book than to have to look up numbers each and every time. This way, I don’t even have to think twice or make separate cover letters or anything. It’s great, and it’s all thanks to you.
hey mui! couldn’t miss fisa with my fellow pups.
gonna try to move to the next thread, if i my browser doesn’t freeze.
i’m referring to the cloture vote on the motion to proceed, dec. 17.
Or to be more precise, the cloture motion you are thinking of was on a motion to proceed to the consideration of S.2248. Dodd lifted his objection to the motion to proceed, in December — after Reid said the bill would be set aside until January. At that time, back in December, S.2248 was made the pending business of the Senate. It’s maintained that “pending” status through the transit from first to second session of the 110th Congress, adjournment sine die did not kill “pending” status.
still good for slackers like me who don’t pay full attention!
Thanks, great letter
great letter! and thanks for helping me get it working – and major thanks to newtonusr, who figured out that i had to upload the folder as a zip file.
IOW, the motion to proceed was adopted. The pending cloture motion dies with the adoption (or rejection) of the underlying issue, if the cloture motion isn’t dispensed with otherwise.
that is my memory of events, but when i was questioned on it last night, i couldn’t find the language. so i backed off on the assertion until i can confirm with a link.
Just look at the Senate’s legislative calendar. S.2248 has been pending since December. Senator Dodd himself expounded the UC request that resulted in adoption of the motion to proceed to S.2248. 5 . ORDERS FOR TUESDAY …
Christy,
I really think the push for the immunity is a veil for the push for the “inherent Presidential authority” language used in the updates on FISA…
This is a great read. Link to this sight and click mid screen on January 9,2006 A Response To The Justice Department From Law Professors ANd Former Government Officials
http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/doj/fisa/
Wish I could do a nicer job for the link.
It’s worth the read for anyone. It lays out the 4th Amend. issues and addresses the issues of Unitary Executive (inherent Presidential Authority)language and “balance of Powers” language.
Enjoy!
EPU’d. This is Edwards’s input. Why isn’t he in Washington? A statement isn’t good enough! (And I am an Edwards supporter!)