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In Monday’s debate, the Democratic candidates slammed Bush’s economic stimulus proposal because it focused on rebates for "tax payers" and business tax breaks, which meant that 50 million low income retirees and other non tax payers would not receive any relief. But with Washington now in near panic over the prospects of a recession, several of the Democratic approaches for filling this gap may now be included. From the Washington Post’s Peter Baker and Jonathan Weisman:
In an important concession to Democrats, Treasury Secretary Henry M. Paulson Jr. signaled that he is open to including tax breaks, even for those who do not pay income taxes.
Paulson plans to open formal talks on the details of the package this morning, and Senate leaders agreed to defer to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and House Minority Leader John A. Boehner (R-Ohio) as chief negotiators. But officials said they were close to the framework of a roughly $145 billion plan: about two-thirds of the money going for tax breaks for individuals, plus extended unemployment and food stamp benefits; and the other third for business tax breaks. Individuals would get rebates of as much as $800, and married couples would receive as much as $1,600.
Paulson had said last Friday that the President wanted "relief for those who are paying taxes," but after watching the financial markets plunge around the world, the Administration changed it’s tune:
But Paulson reversed that formulation yesterday, saying in a speech to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce that "the package must reach a large number of citizens." By saying "citizens" instead of "taxpayers," the secretary opened the door to ideas advanced by Democrats to extend the short-term tax relief to those who do not pay income taxes. Among ideas under consideration, officials said, would be making the tax cut refundable, increasing the earned-income tax credit that goes to low-income workers, or increasing the child tax credit.
Administration officials said privately that, despite philosophical concerns, they would be open as well to extending unemployment benefits and food stamps, as Democrats want to do. "If the pots don’t become a large pot, I think a deal can be done," said one administration official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss negotiating strategy.
That leaves the question of new spending for public works projects — infrastructure development — an idea straight out of the New Deal that some Democrats have been pushing to include but Republicans oppose. Now even these options may be on the table:
Pelosi originally wanted to address infrastructure spending in a separate, follow-on measure to avoid complicating a bipartisan stimulus package, but Reid has pushed her to fight for at least some such projects because he argued that two bills would be difficult to pass in the narrowly divided Senate, congressional aides said.
Many economists, including Congressional Budget Office Director Peter R. Orszag, have suggested such spending would have little impact because it takes too long to allocate funds, solicit bids for construction contracts and begin the work. Democrats are coalescing around a modest pot of money only for highway-resurfacing projects, which they say are needed, are labor-intensive and are quicker to get started.
I wonder whether the Democrats know how to play poker or politics, and I’m concerned about assuming the downturn will not last very long. (See Krugman.) If we’re still in recession next year, a lot more public works spending initiated this year would be timely then and is a worthwhile investment in any event. Update: Nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz lays out the rationale in this NYT op ed. (h/t Bilbo)
Still, they are shaping the debate, despite media assertions that the President is in charge. CNN’s Suzanne Malveau told Lou Dobbs last night that only the President can enact a stimulus package, Article I of the Constitution notwithstanding. Apparently she’d read the NYT article by Sheryl Gaye Stolberg describing Bush proposals without mentioning Congressional Democrats had been working on this for weeks. But as Froomkin noted yesterday, the markets have "voted ‘no’ on Bush," and it’s mostly Democratic proposals being considered to bail out the Republicans’ economic mess.
Where’s the "party of ideas"? McCain told us he doesn’t understand economics,so why not bring back Greenspan; Huckabee wants to disband the IRS and enforce NAFTA; Giuiliani wants to simplify the tax forms; and wealthy private businessman Romney thinks we should extend Bush’s tax cuts for the wealthy and cut corporate and individual tax rates — but no immediate low income relief. I can’t wait for November.
Related posts:
- Biden to Smack Boehner Around on Stimulus
- NYT Can’t Recall that Republicans Who Demand “Where Are the Jobs?” All Voted Against the Stimulus
- White House Calls Kyl’s Bluff on Canceling Stimulus, Republicans Whine About It
- Boehner Enlists Bloodhound to Look for Stimulus Jobs, Forgets They’re in His Home State
- Warren Buffett: Economy Needs Another Stimulus to Get It Up





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Good morning Scarecrow.
Morning in America…
Morning Scarecrow. This means what?
How in the F*** does that work?
didn’t you mean Mourning in America?
Good Morning Scarecrow!
It could mean a break from the payroll tax
Good morning…slightly OT…but I thought all the ladies of the lake would be interested in this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RhL7jTy-cM
I am low income retired and on Soc. Sec. Just where are these various packages going to help me? How about giving me free medical care, that would be of more benefit that anything else these rich, pampered politicians have proposed.
We’re the tricklees…
We need tax cuts for dead rich white people.
End of story.
One example is the earned income tax credit. You can get a rebate even though you owe no taxes — i.e., are not a “tax payer.”
Good morning everyone.
Yeah well I have been tricked on enough thanks!
Good job, ‘Crow.
What’s too funny is watching the republicans, frantically trying to prop up their bloody house of cards, turn into rabid Keynesians to do it.
:o)
We hear no more of “fiscal responsibility”, or “pay as we go”; now, time, itself, is the favorite bank of the GOP, as they shit their pants and make “withdrawals” every day, to try to string out the bush debacle until they can haul ass to their corporate board rooms and laugh at the dems who’ve inherited all their fuckups.
In other news, on the DellNewsPage, I see where gunmen wiped out an Iraqi government checkpoint in Baghdad, killing 8 troops in the process.
The…author…of the piece referred to it as a “driveby shooting”, which makes it one HELL of a “driveby”.
I can see the Crips and Bloods in L.A. reading this and turning green with envy:
“WTF? Wiping a whole CHECKPOINT is a “driveby”. We need to talk to a copywrite lawyer.”
God forbid that Petraeus and the MSM should have to use the word “firefight”, now that bushCo has surged to stability in Iraq.
Earned income is soc. sec. It makes no sense to me. I want free health care :)
Good morning Scarecrow and FDLers.
EPUing prostratedragon is the previous thread, Joseph Stiglitz suggests important components of an econonomic stimulus plan in the NYT.
Yep, and so have children without health coverage, and victims of mortgage sharkery, etc. This is shaping up as an opportunity to fix a number of things. I’m wondering if things like the SCHIP expansion can’t be repackaged as part of a second round of economic stimulus
You can’t bail out a sinking ship with a bucket.
You can’t stimulate an economy which has no sound fundamentals.
Our economy is driven by debt. And unless and until we toss out the whole banking system and bogus financial instrument industry we will be continually be plagued with economic crises and a flow of wealth from the workers to the idle lay about do nothing rich with their investment portfolios and tax consultants.
Watch this series and see what we’re up against.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy-fD78zyvI
get informed.
Struggle
Attended a 35th anniversary for RvW last night. Very moving event with many young people.
We have to make sure that we get Pres. into office that will appoint a non-reactionary judge to the supreme court. Thanks for the video… even though I am not an FDL “lady” !
If the gov would encourage fuel conservation we might be able to do something about inflation in food etc.
Also how’s that ethenol program working out….
Much of our problems are the unintended consequences of the crap bush policies. Congress needs to just say no any more of his crap
Wow would that be something to behold! However I am not holding out a lot of hope. It really does seem so bloody simple to fix our most basic ills, child health care etc. but unless there is boobles of money in it for the corporatists there is no hope of any “good” things happening.
Those Defeatocrat candidates do not want bipartisanship. Although our great leader Bush Dog Pelosi is trying to be Bi. She helping Economic Kommander Guy, fix America. Nancy loves to help Republicans, especially the Republican sexual predators.
But no one is asking the Corporate Lobbyists what should be done. They know best, that the Rich have suffered enough.
Thanks, Bilbo — I’ve added that link to the post.
Sorry, I am a guy too, I think everyone should watch it. I just thought no matter who you are supporting, the women on the youtube clip were incredibly powerful.
Did anyone watch Paulson yesterday speaking to the Chamber of Commerce? He sure looked extremely uncomfortable, a very nervous cat.
Yes, and I thought Bush looked defeated in his photo op with Reid and Pelosi. We should be calling this the Bush Bailout, or something to drive home the point his economic policies have failed, just like everything else.
‘morning all – coffee is ready.
I think the “powers that be” know what a bloody mess they have made and we are in and they have no clue how to correct the problem without taking those big tax cuts away from the super rich and reducing the expense of the illegal invasion…in other words repudiating all that they have been promoting for the last 7 years. Not easy to do.
The splurge (not original)
Paul Krugman opines that the downturn may well be an extended affair.
Deep? Maybe. Long? Probably.
He also says that Bernanke may be saying much the same, in private.
364 more days of Bush.
364363 more days of Bush.Right on point. I’ll add the link. Thanks again.
OT But wonderful news.
Digg this post
btw, I added The Bush Bailout to the title. Let’s make sure this mess gets stuck on HIS flag-pinned lapel.
Ruth Marcus of the WaPo grades the short-term stimulus plans of the president (giving him a B minus) and presidential candidates. She gives her rationale at the link, but the grades are thus:
Obama: A minus
Edwards: B minus
Clinton: C plus
McCain: D plus
Romney: D
Huckabee: D minus
Giuliani: incomplete
There’s lots of tasty snark scrawled in red pen in the margins — do go check it out.
My pleasure. It’s a very little thing. A really big **thanks** for all you do!
Morning pups. I have a question. It’s getting towards the end of January. Do we get a State of the Union Address from the Chimp-in-Chief this year, or is that just another one of those ‘quaint’ Constitutional requirements that have gone by the board. Or was I sleeing and it happened before I woke up.
Anyone have any information or opinions on this?
Scheduled for January 28th.
The big guys are also the big losers (apart from your pension fund). Given the concentration of wealth in America and it’s location in financial assets, the biggest loses are held by the biggest owners, unless they were smart enough to be sitting on cash. And even cash doesn’t look all that good in the short to medium run.
As someone here wrote: schadenfreude is better than no freude at all.
Thanks Elliot — why didn’t I think of that title?
Krugman has a very different take on the plans
Paul Kurgman sees the plans differently
Clinton and Edwards closer and
on Obama
“The Obama campaign’s initial response to the latest wave of bad economic news was, I’m sorry to say, disreputable: Mr. Obama’s top economic adviser claimed that the long-term tax-cut plan the candidate announced months ago is just what we need to keep the slump from “morphing into a drastic decline in consumer spending.” Hmm: claiming that the candidate is all-seeing, and that a tax cut originally proposed for other reasons is also a recession-fighting measure — doesn’t that sound familiar?
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01…..ref=slogin
Me too. I guess I dont expect much
There’s been some talk about it here on the last thread, here are a couple of the comments:
from Palcewski
from bonkers
OT But wonderful news.
Gazans flood through Egypt border
Tens of thousands of Palestinians have surged into Egypt from the Gaza Strip after masked militants destroyed parts of the border wall.
For whom?
The Dem proposals are very similar, and they all feed off and learned from Edwards’ proposals from December. If you put the three of them together, removed the egos and the contest, we’d be fine.
The Bush Legacy:
2 Failed Wars
2 Recessions
Record Defecits for my Kids to pay back. Now he wants to borrow more money from the Communists Chinese to give to Americans so they can buy more stuff from the Chinese. BUt hey Oil Prices have quadrupled since he has been in office and that is what matters most.
Once again HRC copies the Edwards plan. As for Obama, he is lost in the big world.
Humanity
well actually you did!
Gaza has become a prison, with the Israelis sealing the crossing points and then cutting off supplies. It’s an inhumane economic strangulation to punish a whole population for voting for Hamas. Rockets versus tanks, tit for tat. If it’s not a war crime, it should be.
Further. I do not like illegal occupations anywhere, anytime.
In a democratic election!!!!!
Yep.
Similarly, the GOP candidate’s proposals are too late, target at the wrong people, and/or are counter-productive. If you put the four of them together, removed the egos and the contest, we’d be screwed. Worse than we already are, that is.
Who’s firing the rockets, the boy scouts?
And lower the fed rate helps who? How? Tell me.
The oppressed.
What about doing something for the poor & middle class who were defrauded in their mortgages?
Ecahn. Good to “see” you. please explain. If the interest rates are lowered it makes it easier to borrow but less of a benefit to save. What is the sense in increasing our overall debt?
The pentagon is weirded out that they can’t win a win unless the bomb a place into the stone age.
The CIA is weirded out that people are on to their BS.
Waiting to hear the truth about the CIA from Ms Plame and Mr Johnson…
The Fed is weirded out because everyone realizes that all they do is sell more money and constantly devalue our “bank notes”… which are becoming worth less than the paper they are printed on.
Te people are weirded out because the repukes turned out the be lying greedy pedophiles and the dems ineffectual go along wusses who want to get rich WHILE appearing to be for the people. Where to turn.
We live in a lock down state.
We lock up almost 1% of our people and think nothing of executing them.
The OZ curtain is opening wider and wider.
None of these stimulus plans do anything to cure the underlying problems.
1. The loss of the middle class.
2. The end of cheap oil.
3. Budget deficits as far as the eye can see.(450 billion/year in interest)
4. Trade deficits that are unsustainable.
Corporations must see that their employees are also their customers.
If these issues are not addressed, then a stimulus is a waste of time.
Of course not. Both sides feel justified in their attacks, but finding first causes is no longer possible. The question is, how to get out of this cycle. The US has been supporting/urging the policy of economic strangulation, instead of getting both sides to pull back. We are not honest brokers, and the Palestinians know it. Since Annapolis, things have only gotten worse, and we’ve said nothing.
Thanks for an intelligent answer, as always.
Lowering the fed rate only encourages banks to borrow and “trade”… and how does that help John Q Public who needs a well paying job and some relief from usury lending he was forced / scammed into?
Who can afford to be sick?
Who can afford to send kids to college?
Who can afford a studio apartment in Manhattan?
“The budget deficit will jump to about $250 billion this year, the Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday.”
-no link yet
Only way out of a recession in the short run is to spend more money you don’t have, i.e. increase demand, especially consumer spending.
Saving & deficit reduction is only really possible when the economy is prosperous.
Thanks some more, George. We owe you.
Doesn’t this lead to inflation, making the dollar worth less thereby hurting the poor more?
Actually, we owe the Chinese and others.
That’s all this so-called stimulus package is designed for, the short run. Very short-term, as in the next 10 months until Bush leaves office.
The role the forex value of the dollar plays in inflation is vastly exaggerated.
The only way that weak demand & inflation coincide is through a supply shock, which is what the current oil situation represents.
Otherwise, it is strong demand that leads to inflation. Entering a recession, demand is weakening, and therefore not inflationary. I think policymakers should ignore inflation caused by suppply shocks & direct their attention to declining demand.
Republics don’t care. Their position, as articulated by Cheney, is that Reagan proved deficits don’t matter. However, they will blame them on the Democrats. So really, deficits don’t matter except as a political weapon.
Too bad that the Democrats will allow themselves to be blamed.
Life is a series of short-runs tied together.
So yes, getting thru the last disasterous months of W should be a prime objective. It’s also what the economy needs right now.
Suppose you have a burning building with structural problems. You put out the fire first, then deal with the structural problems.
here’s the link: CBO See Higher Budget Deficit
How would you react to the following headline?
“Surgeon General Unveils Plan to Treat Childhood Obesity With Candy and T.V.”
We are reaping what we have sown.
Aha! Now it is making sense. Thanks
Cancel all debt and abolish interest! (put banks out of the rip off biz).
Banks CREATE money by giving loans. They don’t have the money they lend!
Scarecrow, why do you think Paulson was so uncomfortable? was it because he isn’t fully behind the proposals from the White House, or is it the fear of the markets collapsing, or is it that he missed the ball, or maybe panic, or…
I sensed something wrong but don’t really understand the world of economics and finance enough to read the clues.
To me he seemed kinda panicked, but it’s not like this “correction” wasn’t obviously LOOMing on the horizon for some time.
OT
Next NYC area FDL meetup: this Friday, January 25, Parnell’s Pub, 53rd Street & First Avenue, reservation under CAHN. Come one, come all.
There is little demand now and not likely to be any in the near future as people are being told not to buy and credit and no one has savings as they were led to believe that credit is better than savings. Now with the bait and switch they are pulling bake big time on their spending.
There will be no stimulus to the economy with cheap credit as people are getting off the credit rat race.
They are yapping about giving people money to spend. What will they spend it on? new products and services? NO WAY JOSE. It will all go right to debt service and to corporate balance sheets of the banks!
like that’s gonna happen
We could instate sharia law.
Nationalize war profits ?
I have to wonder how much low dollar spending will stimulate the economy. I would very much like to see a very heavy infrastructure, education investment plan, probably to the tune of $250B to $500B over the next 18 months coupled with a lot of cash aimed at the poorest of us, expanded unemployment benefits and health care for the unemployed. A quick infusion stimulating consumer spending will just make the medium to long term imbalances worse.
I just don’t see how giving $800 rebates to taxpayers is going to have much of an effect. Wouln’t it need to be something bigger than that, or more directed towards something specific? Lower income people are already spending all available income on food and housing, it might help them get ahead somewhat, but they would be unwise to go out and blow it on consumer goods.
I would be inclined to put it into savings, myself. Or maybe ‘invest’ it in better Democrats. That’s what I did with the last tax rebate, ‘invested’ it in a Democrat running for President. That appealed to me, using Bush’s rebate against him. That didn’t turn out to be such a good investment, though. This time I would be more selective and invest it in deserving candidates for congressional and Senate seats.
Elliot
The big guys are coming to the realization that there silly manipulation of the Fed rate does nothing to solve the problems of this economy.
They dumped 2 billion of borrowed money into the black hole of Iraq and now have a huge debt to pay.
They gave the rich money to play with crazy financial instruments which gave us derivatives and bundled mortgage and other make believe investments which had made up value. They realize that their running out of tricks.
Cancel debt or walk away from them…
What happens when tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands… millions of people walk away from the debts?
You tell me.
Banks don’t want to own and maintain millions of properties… they can’t afford it!
I don’t know much about Paulson, but let me offer a few thoughts.
I used to think he was one of the few grownups in W admin. Apologies to things come undone, but I’ve changed my mind. He musta drunk the Kool Ade. And he’s certainly interested in bailing out the Wall Streeters who committed fraud on their customers. So he started out with a stimulous proposal that would do just that. But the economic problems turn out to be much more pervasive than was expected & now he doesn’t know what to do.
He’s not an economist, BTW, so he probably doesn’t understand the fundamentals. If he’s relying on W propagandists as his advisors, you could understand his dilemma.
Shorter version: He’s out of his depth.
Just speculating.
We need to get off the whole credit / interest and credit rating scam. It’s nothing more than slavery.
I feel better now.
eCAHN,
Isn’t a cash infusion the fix for a liquidity problem? Are we not in a solvency crisis?
They will always bail out the tip because they believe in voodoo trickle down economonics… if the rich are doing ok, then the poor will be dragged up too.
The rubbish of rising tides raise all ships.
What a fib.
These people who make these macro economic decisions are all ALL ALL trickle down heads Ruben, Berneke.. all of them.
As in “we have no idea how to solve the crisis”
The point is to focus on the overall size of the stimulus proposals, which I read is around 1% of GDP. That’s pretty large, since the typical decline in GDP during average recession is about 2-1/2%. And you have monetary stimulus too. Furthermore, the lower down on the income scale, the more likely the money is to be spent rather than saved.
Banks and financial institutions are in a liquidity crisis because they have inflated portfolios and can’t pay a run on the bank.
In fact, NO BANK can pay a run on the bank… they are ALL way too leveraged.. 10x or more. ALL OF THEM.
Heh — I think you just answered Elliot’s question.
You mean the crew that engaged in a now documented year long campaign of lies, innuendo, prevariacations and truth shadings in order to get the result they desired?
Why do you so little faith in our leaders?
-G
The money spent is only going to be off debt and will NOT create jobs and lift the economy.
that’s the solution, create industry and have the middle and lower classes do what they want to do, pay their way..it stimulates the economy and we get a return on the investment
it will work too and the president will leave office having brought forward a new “new deal” and will gain popularity
the democrats can loose the presidency if this model is followed
*what to do*
The only economic stimulus needed is a credit card interest reduction. Making the top interest rate about 12%. And the middle rate about 8%. And a low rate of 5%. That would get money into the economy, save people’s economic security, and it wouldn’t cost the government any mo0ney. Then they should freeze forclosures for 6 months and order refinancing and perhaps allow people to have the govt insure the amount that people have borrowed above the 80%. This mountain of credit card debt will destroy this country. And maybe require people to save the amount that the interest rate cut will save them.
and oh
FOUR GHETTO BOUT IT
as far as giving these “incentives” or “tax breaks” to ANYONE above middle class
FOUR GHETTO BOUT IT
I too am also relieved. John McCain is on the case of the economic problems.
He’s got Greenspan’s book you know.
-G
thanks eCAHN, I appreciate your take on it. Originally I thought he had to be a good guy beings that he knew and loved birds and thus appreciated the natural world in which we live, but he is BushCo now.
The magnitude of any solvency problem depends on the macroecoinomic environment. Preventing a recession would do a lot to minimize bankruptcies. But I think we need other policies directed toward those fradulent mortgages. Homebuyers should be protected and “investors” should not, but I’m not holding my breath waiting for that outcome.
The markets rallied yesterday because it injected some cash at the top to prevent some more failures.
All the big guys are being caught way too leveraged and insolvent. All they do is borrow more and more to stay afloat. Oh and they fire workers to cut operating costs.
Guess I’m just anti-American. *g*
Of course this would be a good approach to stim the economy but beware of the corporations which run these large projects and the profits they extract which is only inflation and (waste).
You have to move from micro to macro effects. What I do with a $500 rebate won’t affect much of anything. But millions of us spending our $500s in the economy does have an impact, and as it works through the economy, there is a multiplier effect.
think about it;
we will say;
“we know as a fact “trickle down economics cannot possibly work
what we are proposing is “AVALANCHE UP”, invest in the the AMERICAN MIDDLE CLASS AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE and not only will the lower and middle classes benefit but the upper class will benefit in an “AVALANCHE UP”
we will call this “CONSUMER SIDE ECONOMICS!”
bada BING
Imagine. The Bush legacy could be a new New Deal.
Speaking of which, the latest in Afghansitan.
Journalist sentenced to death.
-G
OT–
Joe Scarborough said this morning that he doesn’t like a rich white guy claiming he’s running as a minority candidate, as Edwards claimed on Letterman last night.
My sense is that most people will not buy Ipods but pay off some of their high interest debt. Millions of them and this will do nothing for the economy.
And by the way.. when we do consume “products” in this country, MOST of our cash is heading offshore into the chinese economy!
the fed has been printing paper in unprecedented proportions, I can’t see how printing more can help, the world is worried about inflation and they don’t want the greenback, this is one of the reasons oil is so high
the answer is to RE ACQUIRE the money that is already out there, money that was given to the wealthy HAS TO BE RECLAIMED
that will get it back into the economy without adding as much inflation as printing more paper will add
Well so far it has been a Raw Deal
Scarecrow @ 106
and perris @ 107
The proposed stimulus is a small “tricle up” to try to correct years of massive trickle down.
You can’t join the Mob without becoming a Mobster.
that’s it,progressives have to start calling proper economics;
“consumer side economy”
that will serve two purposes;
it will put this country on the right track to grow the middle class and just as important;
IT WILL DRIVE THE NEO CONS NUTZO
Edwards comes the closest to putting his finger on the nation’s problems. The excesses of the corporate and finance sectors in particular. They fear that light… because people are ignorant of how the economy works.
If they ever knew how we all have been enslaved to the banks and their credit system.
Well, we have had 7 years of George W. Bush’s Raw Deal and I’ll tell ya, my ass don’t need anymore stimulating.
-G
Nothing wrong with paying down your debts/credit cards, etc. It’s a good/wise strategy for now. But that helps too, because paying off loans allows lenders to expand credit so that others can borrow and spend. Again, think beyond the individual micro effects. It’s the cumulative ripples that we’re talking about.
Most of that money is now in Euros.
Dow sinks another 200 in opening minutes
the mayor of looneyville speaks –this is a guy who never served in the military but assumed the gooper costume of the day to advertise his lame tv show.
Scarborough by himself is an industry of insults to minorites..
Shuster tried to explain what the point was
but the Scab was only interested in his own pointless drivel
that would be correct only if the upper class were left out of the investment strategy, if we give to the lower and middle class and leave out the upper class, only then is it “trickle up”, however it will not trickle, it will avalanche since it is the MIDDLE class that drives our economy NOT the upper class
I want to call this strategy;
“consumer side economics” and rub their sorry faces in their own crap
Trickle up is a myth.
You want no up and no down. You want a sustainable equitable just economy without exploitation.
The top is ALWAYS exploiting the bottom.
We need to destroy the top and its exploitation with it.
we need to reclaim those assets, they are not theirs the assets were stolen from the middle class and they need to be reclaimed
Buddy,
People whether individuals or small businesses have no faith in the current system and are now very risk averse and will not develop and expand.
Expand is a dumb ponzi scheme notion that capitalism is built upon.. and ever expanding economy.
Ponzi schemes don’t work.
we destroy the top by stimulating the lower and middle
we regulate the top, there MUST be progressive tax, aqcuiting great wealth creates the scenario where that wealth will buy our law
to build on that;
we INSIST the top does not defer their costs, their costs are the health of their workforce and they need to pay for American health care
they need to pay the bill for cleaning their crap out of our air and water, they need to pay the bill when they cuase harm, they need to pay the bill when they export our industry overseas
If you look at the macro picture an economy such as ours with no growth or very little growth is up shit’s creek. We NEED to grow it or we are dying. That’s the meme of capitalism.. expanding markets, demand and so forth capital creation and so forth.
We live on a planet of fixed size and it cannot ever expanding ANYTHING. It is inevitable as the sun rising that capitalism will run it’s course. It now is in conjunction with peak oil and the environmental crisis.
Stimulus packages are like a bandaid on a cancer.
Fed’s move reflects alarm
http://www.usatoday.com/money/…..-cut_N.htm
Headline in the Print Version (DC) of USA Today, 1/23/08.
Online has it linked to the money section.
They won’t negotiate with the Demos on anything (see SCHIP) but they are willing to give in to the Demos on this to stop the bleeding.
WE ARE IN BIG TROUBLE! Short everything!
OK, some economic news:
And this:
(Same link as my 132.)
Deficit George Custer Bush
If you cease the assists of the wealthy and the corporations and give them to the people.. you have state socialism or communism and of course that will be met by a military coup.
But we should nationalize
all transport systems
all energy systems
all health care delivery systems
Limit interest rates to less than 10%
Remove all tax shelters and loop holes
reinstate progressive taxes
tax wealth
abolish or severely restrict inheritances
cut the size of the military to 10%
Withdraw from all 200 world wide bases
abolish all derivative financial instruments
abolish the fed
the list goes on and on
Nomolos@26; maybe less. If the Sunnis get tired of the bribes to let bush get out of town before Iraq implodes, and if the Shiites decide that the truce is over, anything could happen.
Also, a few months from now, poll-wise, if the republicans are looking at a democratic tsunami, there is a good chance that they will muster up the Goldwater swat team and frog-march bush and Cheyney out of the white house, with Dick Lugar probably becoming the temp.
That’s why it’s so important that we not throw them the Clinton life-preserver. If we’re nuts enough to nominate her, there will be no tsunami, and they’ll know that they have a fair chance of taking everything in the election, and they will have zero incentive to distance themselves very much from bush’s debacles.
We simply do not have the luxury of awarding the nomination to a candidate who is, by far, the least electable of the three leaders.
Especially one who’s criticizing Obama for being “too far left”, because years ago, he spoke out against the death penalty and for “socialized medicine”, as Hillary stated some 6 weeks ago, when she was up to her old trick of parroting the GOP’s talking points.
I meant …if you seize the assets.. oopps
And put no “cap” on soc sec payments. I believe it is at around 90K right now. absurd.
I love the list, socialist that I am.
I believe that means that if you have earned income, and you fill out your tax forms, and the amount that you owe would come out to a negative number (within
reasonlimits), the government will not limit you to zero, but will send you a refund for the amount that your taxes were in the negative. Does that make sense?SanderO@118:
Hammer-nail-bang.
OT..Gag me:
link
Yeah too busy to do the work of the Constitution.
After reading the thread,I wonder, why dont we just end the war and bring the troops and money home?
And don’t hold your breath about that deficit:
(Same link as my 132.)
Dream on. There’s no evidence from Congress that the Rs would do any such thing. They’ve stood united against all bad news so far, and I consider past human behavior as the best predictor of what they’ll do in the future.
there’s the rub though, I am NOT talking about seizing the assets of the wealthy, I am talking about RE AQUIRING the MIDDLE class assets which do not in any shape or form belong to the wealthy
they have stolen booty and it is not theirs, this is not socialism at all it’s property rights, they have taken our property and it needs to be returned
Republicans have no sense of honor and no love of this nation. They love themselves, their wealth and the little bums they screw while denying it all.
what property are you referring to here?
I dissagree, we could have said the same thing during the great depresion yet consumer side economics created the greates economy in history becuase it created the greatest middle class
you are under the impression we can’t grow industry through SAVING the planet as opposed to taking from the planet
you are under the impression we need oil for energy, creating alternative energy is one of the very methods of creating the avalanche up, consumer side economics
the economy CAN always grow becuase nothing we make or create is permanent
the property they aquired with the tax give aways the president gave to them
that property, it’s mine, it’s yours, it’s my childrens and my grandchildrens, it’s NOT theirs and re aquiring it is NOT socialism it’s property rights
Nomolos@138; I saw Edwards speak in Conway, S.C. yesterday.
He talked about SS for about 5 minutes. He said:
NO privatization.
NO cuts in payments.
NO raising of the retirement age.
And he said that he would raise that $97,000 cap (do I have the direction right?) to prevent the fatcats from getting it.
He also spoke at length, of how the drug companies are using “reverse payments” to bribe the makers of generics to keep them off the market, and of how congress knows about it; talks about it; but DOES nothing about it, because of the lobbyists delivering the gravy to key members.
It’s black-humor funny to watch Edwards leading Clinton to
the waterhole, so she can have SOME specific talking points that will resonate with working-class americans, and then we have to watch the MSM try to bury him on the back page.
We don’t need a strong middle class. What we really need is ONE class.
If there is a middle there is a bottom.
Capitalism is about competition and competition always as LOSERS and one winner.
We need to stop this nonsense about WINNING and creating LOSERS. The repukes say they deserve to loose.
We need to crush capitalism and its meaness.
very surprised you can say that because THAT is socialism
we have to have more then one class, we have to be rewarded for what we give above what others give
Perris,
In fact we can have spurts of success and growth of sectors, even many sectors of the economy when we exercise control and regulation as we did in the WPA era, where the government pumped taxes into infrastructure.
Moving off of fossil fuel could save capitalism for the next 50 or more years but as long as wealth is exploiting labor we will always be saddled with debt.
The WPA came before there was consumer credit.
The credit card changed everything.
The stock market used to represent real value of corporations. It no longer does.
We have a huge financial sector which is sucking blood out of this economy.
We have offshored too much of our industry and we don’t produce anything and don’t know how to any more.
We sold the store and we are in deep doo doo.
YES that is socialism and that is far superior to capitalism.
We don’t need to reward people with money and tangible property for their work.
Do you really believe that lie?
Most people do because they have been brainwashed to believe that the reward for hard work and cleverness is money and the things and comfort it buys. Of course this is seductive and leads to all sorts of gaming that “system” of “getting ahead”.
Money ruined everything.
I support democracy and despise capitalism.
Isn’t the way Romney made his money a big contribitor to the current problems
that’s republican speak right there
yes, I believe we need to be rewarded for our hard work, my friends, my family and everyone I know work harder when they are given reward
the reward must of course be tempered, we must always pay our bills which means giving back to the society that helped us grow
but certainly, I do “believe the lie” as you call it
I am sooooo with you. And if we had “honest” democratic elections we would have socialism as there are more workers than fatcats.
gyes, he made his money by taking without givin
Over the years a number of us socialists traded goods for work, food for firewood etc. Worked fine but it sure did piss off the IRS
eCAHN; not a dream a’tall. If you think that 6 months from now we’re going to be sailing right along in this election with about the same level of intensity and the same “unity”, and the same level of nervousness from the voters, that we have now, then I have that oceanfront property in Kansas to sell you.
Boys and girls, we aint seen nuthin’ yet.
I think most of us would agree that the clusterfuck in Iraq is hanging by the slim thread(s) of those bribes to the Sunnis and by the “truce” from and between the Shiite factions (about 90 killed in the past 3 days in intramural fighting in the south, mostly around Karbala.)
Also, sometime in late June or early July that referendum on Kirkuk is scheduled to rear it’s ugly head again, and this time, the price-point to bush for the Kurds postponing it another 6 months to likely put it on the democrats watch, is going to be astronomical.
The Kurds know perfectly well that they have bush’s nads in the vise, and they don’t give a tinker’s damn about “Greater Iraq”. They postponed the referendum this time because they know that by mid-summer that bargaining chip will be 24K gold, Bro. :o)
This morning, the NYSE would have preferred to not open at all, rather than risk the news of another, if somewhat less intense, tanking of the market. They have that little 1929-buffer in place, where they can suspend trading in the middle of a day, if things start to get out of hand, and I’ve got a sawbuck that says we’ll see that used, in the not-too-distant future.
The republican congers are not nearly as sanguine about letting bush play out the string as you seem to believe, eCAHN. They’re watching the same things we’re watching, and if push comes to shove in Iraq, and if oil busts $100 ppb and stays there, the rats leaving the ship and heading for shore will look like the story of lemmings, only in reverse.
George Bush is MUCH closer to the point of having more value to the GOP as a sacrificial pig, than as a retiring president, than you think. And that “value” is moving toward the barbecue side, with every passing day.:o)
If, by mid-summer, the GOP congers are looking at numbers showing a democrat with a 20 point lead, and growing, and with coattails a mile long, they’ll invite the MSM over to the white house lawn for the hog-butchering, in the effort to keep some vestige of power after the election.
And we dems will HAVE that 20 point lead, if not a bigger one, unless we’re jackasses enough to nominate Clinton, in which case the polls will be showing another cliff-hanger for the republicans to steal outright, or to throw to the Supremes, for them to rubber-stamp a GOP win, again.
And those close polls will kill any chance we have of seeing, first, Cheyney retire for “health” reasons, Lugar appointed, and then, the real deal of the joy of watching the elephant herd roust bush back to the ranch, and along with the rest of his family, into political oblivion.
You read it here first.
Oo, Oo! What about making the Bush tax cuts permanent? Have we forgotten that that’s going to be wrung out of us? Or what Melissa Frances talked about yesterday on MSNBC: corporate tax cuts! I’m sure the money saved would be funneled to workers by increaaing their salaries, right?
The Bush administration has succeeded beyond it’s wildest dreams and they were able to do it because no one stepped up to them and told them NO early in the game. And now, it’s almost too late.
I’m sorry, Obama fans. He is going to be so over his head come next January. If it were any other election year, I would gladly support him. But this is not that year.
http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com
The answer to this and every other problem we face is “Change one thing”. Just one. That would begin and end with the president. And I’m sorry but a retread will not work in the change department. I’m tire of running on retreads. NEW and progressive tires only will carry us to where we want to be.
Stimulus for who? For the same people who created the crisis to begin with. That makes perfect sense in bush/clinton/bush/clinton world. around and around we go.
I think the markets have voted “no” on any stimulus package that involves giving lots of money to poor people.
Dems need to advocate some form of economic relief- and equally sized checks to every american are a dem form of doing business. It’s what they proposed (and did) last time Clusterfuck put us into a recession- don’t know just what the effect was- someone should study it real quick. Last time it was followed up with GW Dipshit tax cuts for the rich.
Seems to me that progressives should be in favor of any policy that works and avoids a depression- the poor don’t do well in depressions. Let’s all read the Grapes of Wrath again.
This whole ‘crisis’ is beginning to smell -and smell bad!
You won’t hear from our ‘TERROR! lovin friends on the Right and the Left how our economy is ‘in a slump’ because we are, in effect, under a worldwide boycott. No one wants to spend their tourist dollars here, no one wants to buy our shit -because we either make bad shit or no shit that appeals to the outside world. Gas guzzlin cars? Chemical laden cheese food?
And those reduced sales -or no sales -hit the working people of America the hardest. The businesses, not so much. This pathetic Congress made sure they were OK.
So, while we’re being forced to exist on their crappy cheese food because we can no longer afford real chees – the businessses continued their whining and assholes like neocon Larry Kudlow and most of Clintons donors screamed for bigger rate cuts and benefits, while at the same time took advantage of every working man they could get their hands on.
And again they got big break – while my grandma was given a whopping $16.00 for her yearly cost of living increase. $1.33 a month.
But do you know what the real irony here is? Every financial analyst -even those on Fox, are now surprised how easy it was to get what they wanted. They’re in shock at how “the Fed panicked”.
Businesses got another free pass from our own government at the same time the government admits they f***ed us all over.
Even I’m beginning to hate us too.
The money needs to go where it will do the most good. For this country, the money should go to the owners and CEOs of the major corporations. They are the ones that hire us and pay our insurance premiums and permit us to live in good neighborhoods. By ensuring that CEOs receive millions in bonuses and paychecks, we are ensured stable jobs and excellent benefits. To curtail the tax breaks that these leaders receive would be the height of insanity. They provide for the poor and homeless while employing millions of ordinary folks in their companies. These people are heros and deserve every cent they get. Target the top 1% for massive tax breaks to bring this economy back. To do any less for these business giants would be treason to this country. Save yourselves by saving the rich. It’s the only patriotic thing to do.
[Mod Note; snark tag closed]
Hopefully the economic stimulus package will help to ease people through this difficult time. But, as any stimulus plan can only have limited effects for a limited time it would behoove the government to fix our problems for the long-haul.
Fixing the problems means stopping predatory lending and the awful ARMs and somehow ameliorating the nastiest effects of those ARMs which are coming due in larger and larger numbers.
I suggested some legislation last fall and I believe Senator Chris Dodd began to work on something too. The idea is to allow for refinancing, renegotiation of terms and some kind of court-sanctioned fix, so people can continue to afford to pay their mortgage payments. But, I have read, some companies don’t want to do that. I don’t know why. There are also various opinions in Congress of which kind of ‘fix’ is needed.
The severity of the problem would indicate we should try several if not all of the possible solutions, so we might find at least one or two which will help.
People will have to walk about from their debts if there is no ‘fix’ in sight. It isn’t a character flaw or gameing the system, it’s just a reality that if you don’t have the cash to pay, then you can’t pay. Apparently the front-line lenders don’t care since they’ve packaged up the loans and sold them to somebody else, people like Citi.tBank and Countrywide Mortgage. Those folks
are going to takehave taken some falls.Yes, banks don’t want the houses and the cost of managing them. I would suggest they write off something like 15% as loss and try to re-sell those houses quickly. If losses are not willing incurred they will be felt more powerfully when, over time, housing prices fall even further and the banks will not only have losses, but housing management costs building up on their books.
Take a hit now to avoid a big loss later!
Today I asked a Republican to consider first the times and conditions in which we live and then to create a Frankenstein presidential candidate. I asked, “What kind of president do we need for these times?”
I could see the wheels turning and a sort of weird light going off moment and then very quickly a turning away from the realization that Edwards is THE GUY. He suggested instead Mitt Romney, but still added the question about what Romney had done to make his money.
They can’t admit their guys are flawed and refuse to admit what they know for a fact…John Edwards is THE GUY.