Jane wrote about it here, and Digby here, but there was a lot of discussion online and off about Obama’s kind words about Reagan this week. Here’s what I had to say in an email conversation on Thursday:
The other fundamental movement issue is to build the cultural "hero" cred of people who are actually from the left. When you reify icons of the right, you continue to strengthen the these icons, and all they stood for (apart from your actual statements or intent) as the standards through which we should approach the future.
That’s what cultural heroes and myths are for: giving us a reference point from the past through which to interpret the present and help us navigate the future. Obama wants to coopt the sensibility of "morning in America" hope without thinking through, or perhaps caring that much about at the moment (he’s in a dogfight), these more fundamental, long term, cultural, social and political issues.
He’s a great storyteller, and us shrinks are taught to learn a lot about people from the stories they tell : who are the heroes and villains of their stories? The stories we tell ourselves and others about the world and about ourselves say pretty much everything about who we are. Obama’s stories, from what I can tell, are mostly about himself, mostly about rising above conflict, messianic in tone, but not about movements – political movements and forces, or even values (other than perhaps comity) – larger than himself. That’s the criticism movement types have of him: they don’t see him as someone they can trust in his decision making in office, the compromises he will make. And, he agrees: he sees himself as above partisanship.
If he can overlook Reagan’s dishonesty, his death squads, and all the rest, and it does not make the bile rise to the gorge when thinking about Reagan’s legacy, then his values are open to question, from the left.
That’s the argument between Obama and the base.
Stoller looks at the Nevada numbers and speculates it may have cost him the popular vote, even if he wins the delegate count due to Nevada’s asinine caucus system. Liberals seem to be shifting to Clinton.
Folks, I realize we’re not in the general election yet, but the two primary frontrunners have been positioning themselves for the general since well before the primaries ever began.
Is it too much to ask of them that they make the explicit case that we’ve had our experiment with conservatism, and it has failed, miserably? Evidence abounds and gathers. If you can’t stomp your boot heel on the throat of your opponent when he’s down, when will you ever, ever do it?
Oh, right: we’re talking about Democrats, who, politically, have a famous taste for the capillaries (except when they’re up against their base). Hopefully, those liberal primary swing voters will force the eventual nominee to fight for real progressive values.
As ever, that’s where you come in.



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Pach!
Third
See, it’s crap like this that makes me wonder just what race Obama is running – a Democratic Primary, or a General Election. Big difference in message. Been there myself. This is why Edwards needs to stay in the race to keep everyone else talking to the base and addressing topics important to us.
Sam Seder nails it;
23/6: GOPers to Candidates: “Just Not That Into You.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTiIXmLlZR4
Hi again Pach, please excuse my early OfT:
Does anyone have the link that I saw here a few days ago that involved Mitt Romney, Bain Capital and its activities?
Thanks – working on something and I just can’t find it.
Sorry for the OfT. carry on….
MSM bias ,, has anyone notice,, who they are pushing HARD Or my take on itRON Paul came in second in nevada . but all my researching has shown they are hidding this FACT .
Sorry FDL ,ers But i want a real election ,not a media picked a-hole . this is who you are to vote for////// propaganda blitz
Damn right.
I’m still holding onto my theory that because Hillary is so reviled by the right she’s much more vulnerable to pressure from the left. Unlike Obama, she actually needs us. She has got to know that there are people on the left who hate Clintonianism so damn much that they are willing to sit the election out rather than vote for her. Now whether she’ll be gutsy and smart enough to realize that her only true chance of winning is to venture out of that corporate centrist shell of hers and ask us to stand up with her is another story. We’ll see.
If Obama or Clinton win, we’ve just got to hope that they fight for progressive values once they take power. We’ll have to watch them very closely. The best way to increase pressure on them is to vote in more and better Democrats into the Congress.
Wow – three Pach’s in a row!
Banner day.
Now to read.
The cure for this malady is obvious — Obama needs to channel his inner FDR.
If he doesn’t have an inner FDR, he needs a transplant right quick.
I meant to say “Clintonism.”
Ah, whatever.
I haven’t been pandered to in a good long while and I am due.
Pach, you’ve summed up exactly what’s been bothering me about Obama. I also find the Rezko stuff troubling because it shows a chumminess with someone he should have known to avoid. Maybe Obama is just so busy admiring himself, he fails to see the fatal flaws in others.
I’m afraid to go to Crooks And Liars to see Obama get on his knees for Reagan. Is it there? Do I really want to see it? I know I would be disgusted.
I wish I could say it never ceases to amaze me that a non-entity like Reagan should have become so revered among a large block of the uninformed public. Certainly people my mother’s age (92) who adored FDR and remember clearly that period prior to Eisenhower, were never taken in. The Reagan Democrats were second generation FDR babies — my generation.
It has ceased to amaze me. A lot of Americans were traumatized by the hostage-taking in Teheran. This, more than the Vietnam defeat, was the event that with the then apparently successful Soviet invasion of Afghanistan made large numbers of the American public insecure and in search of a ‘daddy’ figure. Carter certainly wasn’t that figure, and neither was Mondale. Reagan fit the bill perfectly.
I have a colleague who was until then very active in Democratic politics who went over to that Dark Side and has remained a fervent Reaganite ever since (picture on wall, the whole bit. I’m surprised there’s no candles). I asked him why. And he said, ‘he made people like me feel better about ourselves.’ It has always been about validation. He didn’t do anything. He just had to appeal to the imagination and let people’s imagination, aided and abetted by sophisticated Madison Ave advertising technique, run away with itself. It has been very discouraging to experience that degradation of the American spirit.
Reagan was a fraud, but I think Obama is onto something with respect to presenting a narrative people can identify with. The Clinton’s had a potential narrative, but were smeared to death. It’s not their fault, but it is the way it happened and it can’t be undone. She’s competent but tone-deaf. Both Edwards and Obama have an ear for the American public’s insecurities. We need someone on our side of the political and ideological fence with that kind of ear. I think that’s what Obama, in an unfortunately clumsy way, is driving at.
The Cheneycare ad is absolutely fantastic! Brilliant.
Pach,
very nicely put. I would trust HRC more if she would shuck some of those ancient war horses with the pea brains as advisors.
Here’s a link to an editorial in today’s Blade (Toledo’s newspaper):
http://toledoblade.com/apps/pb…../801200305
They point out that the median age of today’s voter is 44, thus many of the references to past leaders and other historic touchstones are lost on them. The editorial urges the development of new talking points more in keeping with the realities of the electorate.
Yep that is always a horror show.
To finish my thought from above, I really hope that the two front runners have made a strategic decision to run to the right to get elected and then govern to the left. The opposite of what Bush did in order to convince the voters there was no difference between Bush & Gore in 2000.
That really is a bit of a frightening editorial as it basically leads into the same situation we are dealing with today – forgetting what has happened in history.
Sure forget all about Vietnam and Korea, concentrate only on Reagan and Bush 1 “successes” like Grenada and Panama. And we wind up with Irak. Maybe that editorial writer needs to go take a few history courses rather than urging folks to abandon it.
I refer you to this, on Dkos, as it accurately sums up my thoughts on this whole contretemps.
I will add that I’ve been quite surprised at how readily the Clinton camp has grabbed this Rovian cudgel to beat Obama with.
Actually, I’m not surprised at all. It’s what I’d expect from these people.
From Frank Rich this morning: Invoking Worm Food
imagine saying anything nice about Reagan? He was a paid tool. He broke unions, he broke laws amounting to treason. He thunk “olivier north” was one of the good guys. Our first truly ignorant, and antibiotic resistant presnit.
obama seems truly weird to beg “regainites” for their support. faux likes him, nbc likes him, rove likes him? what the hell do you think he is? Please, link to any thing substantive that he may have said, anywhere. I have seen nothing and heard nothing. He got out of doing an interview with Jon Stewart, is that supposed to make him, well, anything?
It’s more than Chumminess. Obama interviewed with Rexko’s company when he was a a law student. Rezko offered him the job. Obama turned down working for Rezko directly and instead went to work for the law firm that represented Rezko’s slumlord buildings.
Rezko has been constant campaign contributor and bundler for Obama. And of course the land deal thingy.
Land deal scandal. land deal scandal. When was the last time Dems had to put up with a president accused of a land deal scandal?
I hope so, too. Of course, once they’re in the White House, we don’t really have that much direct influence on them. I’m sure Obama/Clinton would expect us to vote for them again in 2012. We’ll have a better chance of moving the country our way if we can eject Bush Dogs and conservative Dems in the primaries.
I hope so too.
The economy is so bad for quite a few people, and that might have a real difference on how they govern.
Seems to be the case. Any more governing from the right would surely crash the system. We might end up looking something like Mexico. No Social Security, cheap labor – work for food, etc. The powers that be can’t let that happen, though. Who would pay the man’s outrageous Utility bills, insurance premiums and taxes if they are busted?
OT Glenn Greenwald has a takedown of another piece in the Times by Michael “Wrong Way” Gordon.
Glenn’s article:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
Gordon’s:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01…..ekinreview
Basically, Gordon is buying into the military line (which again is a restatment of the Bush line) that we should stay in Iraq forever. The one thing I would add to Glenn’s piece is that the formulation of this idea was put together actually a little before Petraeus’ famous non-report report in September 2007. It was called then Strategic Patience and stated that the situation in Iraq was bad and argued for taking a long view in which there would be a large American presence in Iraq well into the future.
I suppose one way of looking at this is that the Pentagon (through their compliant
shillssources like Michael Gordon) is trotting out this year’s big meme. In February 2007, they came out with the big Iran threat. This year’s model appears to be Strategic Patience redux.Are all Toledo people that ignorant? Most people love history when it is presented to them in an interesting and engaging way. (And yes, I do teach history from time to time. Why do you ask?)
My take on Obama’s (and to some degree Hillary’s) expression of admiration for Reagan is that when a figure who is running for public office sets someone up as an icon, s/he wants someone to believe that s/he will emulate that person. I believe this was Obama’s bid to gain the support of some Repugs (perhaps the Reagan Democrats.) The only problem is that this is primary season and he didn’t seem to understand that I was listening too, and he just might be convincing enough to alienate me in the process of pandering.
Yes, Pach, you’re right. I would far rather he makes his heroes someone I would like to see him emulate; JFK, LBJ, Truman, FDR. But Reagan?!! And while he’s making this adjustment, he might also make the reference that you made to our national experiment with conservatism and how well that worked for us.
I think you’re confusing voters with history professionals. In Presidential elections, many voters go to the polls and pick the guy they like. If Vietnam, or Reagan, or whatever, happened before their time, they aren’t going to have an emotional connection to it. I think it’s rational to recognize that reality.
Great post, Pach!
I don’t get this allusion. Can you explain?
I cannot say what Obama’s goals were in making his statements about Ronald Reagan. But if he was attempting to lift the spirits of those Americans who are literally and figuratively, sick to death of the mean and killing policies of George Bush (Bush has said Reagan is his hero) then the impression in our house is Obama was naive and failed. Miserably. Perhaps, Senator, you should have mentioned that although perhaps Ronald Reagan changed politics, he did so for the worst of motives and ends.
It isn’t a zero sum game. The temptation is to think that criticism of Obama benefits Clinton and vice versa when viewed through the lens of their supporters, but speaking for myself I can say that our allegiance is to a counternarrative which we hope will create the possibility of progressive change no matter who gets elected.
From that standpoint, if one candidate sees another receiving negative feedback for something they are less likely to engage in it themsleves. The likelihood that Clinton or Edwards is going to step in it now and start praising St. Ronnie in the next few days is remote. We win.
That seems to be a schema that is almost impossible for people whose allegiance is to a particular candidate to understand, and thus we’re accused of being agents of a candidate who isn’t on the receiving end of a particular critique. We’re not. We’re trying to shift the whole dialog by shifting all the candidates, using one to pressure the rest.
It may not be what some people are looking to hear, but it is nonetheless both true and necessary in the world of less-than-perfect candidates.
Obama was obviously correct in his observations about Reagan — just as Bill Clinton himself acknowledged at the time. He didn’t say that Reagan’s ideas were good (despite how both Clintons intentionally twisted his comments). He said that Reagan offered ideas to challenge the conventional wisdom at a time when the Democratic party seemed fresh out of any new ideas at all.
The best evidence of that is Bill Clinton’s presidency itself. While he was a good president and a fine manager of the country, providing eight years of peace and prosperity, one of his two major accomplishments was enacting welfare reform (the other was eliminating the federal budget deficit) — not exactly a progressive legacy. Other than that it was a lot of triangulating and school uniforms. Which is why Clinton was a good but not a great president. Great presidencies require bold initiatives. Hillary Clinton will be a careful manager and a master of triangulation. Mark Penn is already working on the next iteration of school uniforms.
I want more than that. Barack Obama can be a great president.
The riff is off the expression, “taste for the jugular.”
I’m with you on all that, LHP — but I reduced it to chumminess because that’s the only thing some are willing to see in that relationship. I see something much more disturbing, as do you.
Something that hit me recently was Obama’s statement that it might not have been “enough” to deflect the appearance of something hinky when he paid more (way more, as it happens) than the appraised value of the land adjacent to his. That tells me he weighed that purchase in view of what it would say about him, and thought if he paid too little it would look like a gift. He hired an appraiser then totally ignored the appraiser’s determination. He chose instead to consider the lot as a whole and paid for it according to the percentage of it that was being sold to him versus Mrs. Rezko’s purchase price. In the process, he put considerably more money into Mrs. Rezko’s hands than she had coming to her via any clear-headed view of the deal. So was he just wanting to enrich her, or was he looking to cover up what he saw as a transaction that could come back and bite him in the butt (making it worse in the process)? Either way, it shows a serious lack of judgment, as does his long-standing association with Rezko.
I also do not buy that whole story about why the two deals were closed on the same day. It’s presented as if the deals couldn’t have gone forward if they weren’t done on that day. But what seller with two properties up for sale would ever put that condition on the sales? It indicates a coordination of the parties involved, something Obama denies.
What? It is not Rovian to tell the truth: the man perpetuated the myths of Reaganism. Believe his words. I do.
Not just Toledo. It is rare to find anyone who is really paying attention. If one gets all one’s info from television and radio, one is very clueless. An ignorant woman started talking to me about Hillary and Hillary foibles. Many teevee watchers are definitely taking the bait. I told the woman that I would not talk to her about Hillary.
I agree with Stoller. Obama dissed the liberals. He was a
fuckheadinsensitive. And the “very liberal” segment of the Democratic caucus goers in Nevada retaliated.Our triangulation candidates, Obama and Clinton, have been operating on the assumption that they can ignore the left because we have nowhere else to go. While that’s true in the general election, so long as there are two of them in the primaries, we can insist on being pandered to.
So, here’s my proposition: whichever of democratic candidate will get their ass back to Washington for a few days and show leadership in the (likely futile) fight against telco/BushCo immunity will have my vote on Super Tuesday and my full support for the rest of the campaign.
Yes
We would like to see a sample of your leadership before we decide.
Yep.
But being the effetes that they are, they only have the strength to suck on capillaries?
This is exactly right–it’s all about him, and everyone else is supposed to fall in line, thus creating some ”hopeful” movement. He admires Reagan because people did simply fall for, and fall in line behind, Reagan. Honestly, who writes an autobiography in their 30s? Seriously.
Using rightwing language and holding up rightwing figures as role models shows that, like them, it’s the successful sales job they did that counts far more than their governing or their policies or the impact their policies have on us.
From that standpoint, if one candidate sees another receiving negative feedback for something they are less likely to engage in it themselves. The likelihood that Clinton or Edwards is going to step in it now and start praising St. Ronnie in the next few days is remote. We win.
That seems to be a schema that is almost impossible for people whose allegiance is to a particular candidate to understand, and thus we’re accused of being agents of a candidate who isn’t on the receiving end of a particular critique. We’re not. We’re trying to shift the whole dialog by shifting all the candidates, using one to pressure the rest.
Yea, Jane!!! We are the agents that drag the Overton Window to the Left!!!
And all I can say, it’s about damn time!!!
Ah. Nice one.
That is very good.
No kidding. That is why so many of us went over to Chris Dodd. He did (and hopefully will keep doing) what a leader should.
How can we get that message to Obama and Clinton? There are some incredibly serious issues at stake in the senate. Issues that affect everyone. But they are more interested in their little campaign world. Why aren’t they in DC??
They don’t fight the right wing. Not really, not like the streetfight American politics is.
Liberals too often think that fighting tough means fighting dirty. But it doesn’t.
As Truman said, “I don’t give ‘em hell. I just tell the truth about them and they think it’s hell”
I live in Toledo and can testify only to my own ignorance. Luckily, I’m old enough to have all that history resonate with me. But you know what? As I think about the people around me, the kinds of conversations I hear, and the age of the participants, I do think they’d rather have a candidate talking to them about today and the future rather than all those other things that mean so much to you and to me. That’s if they could get interested in an election at all, that is. I’ve noticed that — at least around here — there’s one event that seems to trigger a genuine interest in who gets elected president: home ownership. Young folks are mostly renters. That’s too bad because something happens to people when they put foot on their own land. They begin to realize they have an ownership interest in this country. Maybe the trick to get the young people around here more involved in politics is to give them a house, eh?
I know that we face a large obstacle in the lamestream media. But just how difficult is it to point out that the current day situation America is in is the end result of 3 decades of GOP rule.
I mean they had two revolutions that they claim, Reagan in the 80’s and the Republican in the 90’s, yet the argument still seems to be that all the ills are the result of what FDR did in the 40’s and LBJ did in the 60’s.
Either there were nation shattering changes delivered by the Republicans and conservatives or there weren’t. They can’t have it both ways.
Let’s beat this goddamn drum over and over again. Ya gotta catapult the propaganda ya know.
-G
Exactly. Dems have been out of power so long, even they forget what ‘centrist’ means. Right now, the center of the Democratic party is closer to what the center of the Republican party was in the 1970s. Run and govern as a damn liberal already!
I disagree. I fall right into that age group, as does my wife and the majority of our friends. We are not “forgetting what has happened in history.” We are, however, sick and tired of a political discourse that is focused through the lens of events that have a dwindling relevance to today’s issues. Vietnam is exhibit A. I was 10 in 1975. What does what a candidate who fought in Vietnam bring to the debate on Climate Change? What does Watergate have to do with the issue of stateless, trans-national terrorism in the age of the internet?
This is why I support Obama; He’s about my age. He sees things in a similar way to me.
Also, consider this; There will be people voting in this election who were born in 1990. Vietnam, Kennedy, & Watergate are ancient history to them.
Yes, theoreticians have known for some time that if you give a guy his own home he will be less likely to revolt. It’s back to “freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose.”
Obama wants to be the leader of the most powerful nation on Earth (I’m thinking nukes, etc. here). You know Senator, it occurs to me that a lot of ‘doing leadership’ involves and depends upon appropriate and correct judgements. Your pronouncements on Mr. Reagan do not exhibit a talent for making decisions well. We in this home view you at this point as strictly minor league. We do not have the impression you are presidential timber. Your recent remarks on Reagan do not inspire confidence.
This Democrat likes Edwards.
Obama on CNN sounding like Edwards…
The Establishment is absolutely furious that they’ve not been able to bury Ron Paul, who yesterday beat their boy Rudy in both SC and Nevada. In fact, in Nevada it was:
That had to hurt.
So, it sounds like you’re more comfortable with things in Irak as it was done in your generation than to have learned the lessons of previous generations and avoided it.
And instead of remembering the lessons from the Great Depression, just go ahead and dismantle all the brakes on the greed that were instituted so you can have your own because after all, it’s only history and has no bearing on current events, right?
kiddo, you are very wise.
How was the catfish?
I spent a lot of time linking and posting quotes on this yesterday. I guess it’s in the eye of the beholder.
My dream candidate question: We have seen a huge change in privacy rights over the last eight years — with a dramatic increase in rights to withhold information by governments and corporations and an equally dramatic decrease in rights for citizens to protect their personal information from government and corporations. Where do you stand on the right to privacy and how will you lead the change?
We have an interesting divide here. Historically more older folks voted than younger ones, so the pandering to the memories of years gone by makes sense to them. With Obama in the race, younger people are jumping in. These younger generations need a different message – one of how will you change things for the better after this disaster of a presidency.
I’d still like to know what in the world was the point of a Democratic presidential candidate bringing the name Ronald Reagan to the fore in a positive light?
Yeah. I’m surprised and dismayed that McConnell’s new scheme to take a huge steaming crap on the 4th Amendment hasn’t got any real mainstream attention. (Well, actually, not surprised, just dismayed.)
snowbird42
more garden downstairs at 155 ;->
Fuckhead was appropriate, no?
Them cats was good. ;0)
Quick somebody call the blog fire department! Pach is on fire this morning.
Exactly! And Matt Stoller documents that negative feedback to Obama in Nevada. I’m suggesting going a bit further and holding our feelings and our votes hostage. Obama dissed us, and it’ll take us a while to get over it, perhaps even past Super Tuesday. But it would help us feel better if he showed real leadership in the fight against telco/BusCo immunity. Call it demanding respect.
Glad to hear it.
A huge opportunity for the Dem primary candidates ignored. Gotta be seen as a team player
I see it just the opposite: ownership prompts revolution because it causes people to pay attention. That, or the notion that you deserve ownership that you don’t have.
I like the Teamwork quip!
All of which makes complete sense. What I don’t see is where Obama said “Reagan was bloody marvellous, I want to be just like him”. Because he didn’t say that, and interpreting his statements in that manner is a deliberate attempt to distort where he’s coming from. And this from Clinton, a candidate who I doubt very much will ever approach what anyone here would describe as “progressive”, should she be elected.
Something he maybe learned from his mentor?
Someone should tell him that walking around with your nose in the air with visions of granduer can be a pain in the neck after awhile.
Yes. And that word was mild compared to what I said when I first saw Obama’s pean to St. Ronnie. ;-)
and I thought I was a good gardener. Thanks for all the info. I let the chard freeze and now I have plans for next year. Ill try some winter goodies. Been wanting a coldframe and may get that going.
will add a additional bed for the soup kitchen this year too.
Message to Obama: Even Oprah knows that Ronald Reagan was one of the worst m*therf*ckers of all time. Oprah, will you please talk to this guy?
I’m thinking about what jane said. Maybe this contributes to Edwards’s problems. He’s been fucked-over by msm and that’s probably his biggest problem. As big as any of the others. But that thing about my allegiance. I’m supporting Edwards and wish I had a chance to vote for him in a meaningful primary. But I’m OK with the other two. I think alot of people who like Edwards are the same, so their (our) allegiance doesn’t run as deeply as it probably should have. They/we are too happy with the Edwards’s counternarrative that moves the other candidates (hopefully) and not as committed to the candidate as the supportes of BO and HRC. Now, that could all be bullshit. But I think there’s something to it.
Jane, should I tell Peter Daou I’m apparently a Clinton partisan?
BTW, since we’re talking about the primaries, I should disclose I’ve given a little money to two candidates.
I gave some to Dodd for his FISA stand. I gave some to Edwards for making the case about lobbyists and the asymmetrical concentration of power in the hands of the monied few.
But I don’t have a candidate. I have a progressive agenda, and my candidate, if there is one, is the agglomerated progressive movement.
Bush is a boomer. So are most of his cabinet. So are most of the congress, Dem & GOP, that enabled this disaster. So are the majority of Fox news viewers, incidentally.
Judgment doesn’t seem to have anything to do with maturity, apparently.
Making it up as they go along.
Iranian IED Attacks UP in Iraq
“US soldiers have already been targeted in the first two weeks of January by as many suspected Iranian explosives as in all of December, the US defense chief said Friday.”
Iranian IED Attacks DOWN in Iraq
In other words all of these estimates are based upon statistical manipulation of events. And these attacks have never even truly established have ANY direct Iranian input since the EFP’s could come from local workshops and from parts made from just about anywhere. Anyone with a basic knowledge of welding could create an EFP ~ furthermore, in the only data the military allowed for inspection it’s demonstrable that EFP attacks occurred in areas where Iranian-influenced Shiite groups would never have been operating, such as the Sunni Triangle and Anwar Province.
Lavendar Pantsuits ‘R’Us.
My lady and I are of the opinion that three Republican presidents are in a class by themselves as to changing politics for the worse. Richard Nixon, and George W. Bush come immediately to mind. And Ronald Reagan. Our view is that these three men are, in our lifetime, the most mean spirited (respective of the policies, dogma, propaganda and ideology they pushed) of presidential ‘political changers’.
“Obama dissed us” How? simply by omitting to add “and those ideas were wrong, by the way” ? He clearly thinks that Reagan’s ideas were wrong. He has said so in the past in making this very point. There is really no there here, in my opinion. It seems as if this is a fight about a failure to ritualistically genuflect in the proper way. Barack Obama is a Democrat and a liberal. He is not running to restore any part of the Reagan legacy — except for that landslide electoral victory part.
Bush and the “Boomers” in his cabinet have all bought into the mindset and gibberish that it was the anti-war left and Dems that “cost” us the war in Vietnam. They willfully chose to ignore the actual Facts of what happened, i.e., that we had no business in the middle of a civil war in a foreign country.
This is a myth that was helped along by folks like Ronald Reagan, whose actions as a “change agent” seem to meet with Senator Obama’s approval.
That’s baloney. No Democrat should ever say anything that places Reagan in any but the most unflattering light, which he fully deserves. For a Democrat to speak even neutrally about Reagan–itself a patently false interpretation of Obama’s statement which was clearly designed to capture some positive relfected light–is bad for the progressive cause.
You don’t hear “conservatives” speaking well, or even neutrally, of FDR, so you? Say what you will about them, they do know how to speak to their audience.
I don’t really have a problem with what he said. Reagan hasn’t been gone all that long, but he is a saint in the eyes of so many-including some democrats and ex-democrats. With the passage of time, Republicans often invoked FDR as a great president. He’s accepted as such, so it’d be stupid not to. Sixty years from now, I dun no if Reagan will be considered such a saint. But for now, he is. I’m a libertal and I don’t feel dissed by what BO said.
See Armstrong, Jerome.
Occam’s Razor, people.
There was a dramatic uptick in propaganda in January during Bush’s Middle East tour.
It is now back to normal levels.
-G
P.S. Word has it the Iranian Navy is procuring a large and intimidating fleet of swan shaped paddle boats.
The thing is, there was no Reagan before Reagan was Reagan, not even for Reagan; so Obama just needs to be who he is now and say what he believes without invoking a hero of others…especially a hero that brought us Iran Contra, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Team B, and the Bushes.
Maybe Barack needs to go back and read some history, in fact, maybe America needs to go back and read some history, but that is part of the problem isn’t it, history has been buried and revised to favor the Pukes with the help from the media. The worst thing a Dem can do is to bolster the lies.
The bottomline for many is that ANY situation where Ronald Reagan is held up as a positive, reinforces the (wrongful) view that he and his policies and way of doing business are to be admired.
Obama blew it.
Hah! You beat me to it.
Right-wing Republicans despise FDR. To hear some of them tell it recently, it’s even his fault that our economy sucks now.
Well said.
I made a comment like that maybe a week ago and was corrected. Obama apparently says “we” and “you” much more than he says “I”. His theme is “We can do this together.” He believes the bipartisan line he’s been espousing.
Oh, right: we’re talking about Democrats, who, politically, have a famous taste for the capillaries
Dem leadership embraces the status quo, goes for the hug-ular
Those of us who are in our forties are at an age when we are reaching the peak of our powers, in many ways. I suspect I’m not alone when I express impatience with a cultural/media narrative that continually extols the wonders of growing up a boomer, when we look around at what their generation has done. Bush’s legacy is theirs.
I don’t mean to insult or denigrate anyone of this age group who works to change this sorry state of affairs.
I resemble that remark but the decisions I make don’t kill people.
I don’t know that it’s not the abandonment of responsibility that is the problem. Bad judgment can have bad consequences for sure. Maturity is learning from your mistakes.
I do not however, have a closet full of empty snake oil bottles. Something in my favor anyway.
Boarding plane for DC in a few minutes. Katie is in the emergency ward with gastric inflamation. She will hopefully be okay but prayers appreciated.
And please stop by for book salon today for Glenn Hurowitz’s book. I won’t be able to be there for it so I’m trusting you guys to take good care of him and Chrissy Bonanno (formerly of the Dodd campaign) who will be hosting.
I’ll be with little Katie soon and know I’m leaving everything in good hands while I’m gone.
The Obama speech today in Atlanta took a real swipe at Raygun (referened the welfare queen comment) and stole a major part of Edwards speech including direct reference to homeless vets
We like what John Edwards had to say about Obama’s recent remarks on Reagan. Edwards seems unafraid to fight for what’s right.
I see a much more fundamental duplicity in Obama’s hagiography of Reagan. He and his campaign people had just come off a histrionic battle supposedly over a slight Clinton people had directed at Martin Luther King Jr. Never mind that Obama is opposed to affirmative action, a basic means of righting the wrong of American racism. A key part of the “uniting” quality of Reagan was his visit to Philadelphia Mississippi, the site of the murder of three civil rights workers of the sixties, to proclaim his concern for “state’s rights.” It wasn’t merely a dog whistle to racist sentiments in the South. It was a shout out. It was a superb manifestation of the racist “Southern Strategy.” Add to that Reagan’s famous racist fantasy about the Cadillac driving welfare queen and it makes absolutely no sense to glorify Reagan while being so touchy about any mention of MLK. No sense that is other than in a purely manipulative political sense where there are no real morals or values other than gaining power.
Good luck Janie.
I don’t know if it’s had enough discussion wrt Nevada, but Obama’s condescending comment during the debate that Hillary is “likable enough” may have had some effect too. It was just plain mean and disrespectful. Disrespectful still counts in some demographics.
BTW, we’re getting hung up in whether BO dissed us or not, but Pach asks a good question – shouldn’t people be saying that conservatism has failed? I long for the day when our people run and use the term “conservative” the way R’s use “liberal” as a pejorative. But then, shouldn’t I feel dissed? Not really. I think you can acknowledge that Reagan was a popular guy with alot of people but that his policies sucked. Kinda hard for BO to say that, though, when alot of people think he’s in the position he’s in ’cause of popularity alone.
You may not intend to insult us but by lumping us all together with Bush and claiming he is our legacy, we offer profound insult. I would wager that the vast majority of folks of baby boom age in this audience have spent their entire lives fighting both generally and specifically against everything manifested by Bush.
I doubt if any of us voted in Y2K or ‘04 based on the perception of “I’d like to have a beer with him.”
Can your generation make the same claim?
I think his choice to say what he did shows his naivete. This is my greatest concern about Obama. I don’t think he entirely understands the opposition. I don’t think he gets what he will be up against once he is the clear front runner. I also don’t believe he will rid us or even try to break the neo con shadow gov’t that has been running things. I fear he will skip the accountability step and move to quickly to uniting something that cannot be united until accountability has occurred.
It’s just like if a man has hit his wife. IF the counselor focuses on unity before focusing on accountability…it will be a disaster and the counselor will inadvertently be colluding with the aggressor.
I fear this will happen with Obama.
I sort of took the remark as kidding her in the sense that she’s likable enough to be the frontrunner…I think that in spite of the sniping, they like each other quite well.
Kisses for Katie, Jane…
I share that fear
True, I shoulda been clearer. I meant R candidates. Mayve Alan Keyes trashes FDR – other fringe whackos like him, but not mainstrean R candidates.
And the main alternative candidate at this point, Hillary has a list of both Reagan and Bush Sr. as being her favorite presidents (with others) on her website. You can’t viably clobber one without addressing the other.
Every time either or both Ron Paul or Fred Thompson beats Giuliani, I expect Rudy to wake up and realize the coffin lid is nailed shut. I guess he hasn’t woken up yet.
I’m stuck wondering what the two Demo frontrunners REALLY think?
I don’t think he’s naive.
I hope she gets better soon.
-G
P.S. Word has it the Iranian Navy is procuring a large and intimidating fleet of swan shaped paddle boats.
Hey! Now you’re making me remember Boston. Love that city.
No wonder Democrats have such an identity problem!
“I fear he will skip the accountability step and move to quickly to uniting something that cannot be united until accountability has occurred.”
What do you mean by this? What do you worry that a President Obama would do, or not do?
In my experience, it has been the Gen-X’ers that have Kool-Aid toxicity.
See him on Stephanopolopolopolous today? Can somebody just stamp LOSER on his forehead?
All the best for a safe flight and quick recovery for Katie.
Good luck to her, and to you!
I think Obama is doing quite a good job at addressing things that come up – for example the Johnson ad, the Jewish email, the email going around the military, Bill’s comments on the union in Nevada. Unlike Kerry the Obama campaign has been very active. Unlike Hillary, they have not gone for the vicious lies and attacks (as Bill Clinton has done).
Wow. That example of the man hitting his wife is perfect. It also serves as a great reason to vote for Edwards.
We could argue that all day. There’s no way of proving or disproving it. Demographics suggest that as the Baby Boomers make up the largest proportion of the electorate, they would be the largest proportion of Bush voters.
This is a job for the Google, I think.
We just got new ones for Lake Eola. Now I know where the old ones went.
Well… I will say thank gawd Harry and Nancy aren’t the two front runners. Of course that may not be saying a whole lot.
Best wishes for Katie…
I agree that he’s doing a better job than Kerry with the campaign attacks — my fear lies more with the aggressive action being done by the current administration with congress. In other words, what he currently experiences as a senator, not just as a candidate.
I’m showing up here more often than ever, probably, so I should know this…but… Who’s katie?
Sending healing thoughts to Katie.
Speaking of disrespect, has any explanation been given about why Obama left NV before the election was called..no thanks for his campaign workers efforts..no congrats to the Hillary campaign..just the sour grapes “we really won”..Going to see his family was a pretty lame excuse for what appears to be petulant behavior..I am sure Axelrod told Obama that they had it in the bag.
It’s almost as bad to have a pet you love dearly to be in danger, as it is for your child to be hurting.
“That’s baloney. No Democrat should ever say anything that places Reagan in any but the most unflattering light, which he fully deserves. For a Democrat to speak even neutrally about Reagan–itself a patently false interpretation of Obama’s statement which was clearly designed to capture some positive relfected light–is bad for the progressive cause.”
So now now we’re restricting free speech for ideological reasons, are we?
Progressive.
John Kerry reminded us the other day that Earth Day was founded in 1970 (I believe,) yet Ronald Reagan spoke about the “killer trees” derisively in August of 1980. The man had no foresight and his vision wasn’t all that good. What he considered good was certainly not our idea of what is good. We could have used the 1980s as a head start on ecological sensitivity, and certainly should have used the time to get off our dependence on foreign oil, as Jimmy Carter tried encourage. Reagan was a bad, bad President in my book, from his “ketchup is a vegetable” right down to taking credit for the demise of communism.
One of Janes 3
Standard poodleskids.I gotta disagree.
Really? Well enough that she’d invite him to be on the ticket?
Katie is one of Jane’s poodles.
Someone mentioned a number of Reagan warmongers who are working in Bushco. Death Squad Negroponte is one that didn’t get mentioned. Rummy once mentioned the Salvadoran Option for Iraq. Well, they’re using that one. Its a Negroponte classic.
Interestingly Obama has a much stronger group of Senators in his camp than Hillary at this point (Leahy for example).
Katie is one of Jane’s standardbred poodles I believe.
One of the dogs of FireDogLake
That’s okay. ;0)
That claim is derived from a quote from an editorial about Clinton in a NH newspaper, that was then copied into her Web site. Her campaign has now asserted that she never said Bush, Sr. or Reagan were among her “favorite Presidents”.
http://facts.hillaryhub.com/archive/?id=5309
Good luck to Katie, Jane
In the hospital? Hope she doesn’t lose the heat again. Didn’t the poodles help keep her warm when that happened??
I’m not sure about that. I think she might pick Bayh or someone like that. Hard to tell.
She may be now dismissing it, but she was proud enough to have it up on her website until she got clobbered for it! And, of course Bill Clinton has said/done much the same thing.
Jane’s poodle.
Yes, that was a three dog night.
Sounds like maybe someone found the pumpkin loaf stash?
And I thought I was going to get called a dog-hater or a caninogynist or something. Not so. Got a dog.
Hope Katie gets better.
Dude, calm yourself down. We’re discussing the relative merits of strategies for promoting progressive ends. It is, to be honest, surprising to have to point this kind of thing out here.
Still and all, I recall that Obama was against the Bush Iraq fiasco while some demos were voting in favor of it. And yes, I know John Edwards supported the attack on Iraq. And I also realize Mr. Edwards has said many times that his support for that was a mistake.
One of Jane’s poodles.
I doubt if Senators want a detail oriented manager for Pres; much prefer a “idea” person. They want their egos back.
A few people have cited this from Audacity of Hope as demonstrating Obama rejection of Reganism:
Clarity about communism: Reagan’s day exploited fear of communism the way today’s right exploits “Islamofascism”: as an excuse to raise defense budgets and to dominate and exploit third world countries. I can’t see praising that behavior as “clarity.”
Progressives less concerned …: Perhaps it never occurred to Obama that we bear greater moral responsibility for the evils of our own elected government than for the evils of a foreign dictatorship that our government aggressively opposes.
Had to give the old man his due: Good God. That shit again?
If peace will ever come to a violent marriage it will only come after the violent person has been held accountable by the community and the wife. Then if the violent person stops minimizing, deny and blaming the violence on the victim, the marriage might heal. Then both in the marriage can become accountable for maintaining peace. Then unity becomes the central theme and folks learn “restraint of tongue and pen” and they learn “acceptance” and they learn to stop trying to control one another.
The mistake most often made when dealing with this issue is the desire to skip accountability for the sake of peace and unity. It’s the mistake that keeps on giving, because the cycle will continue. Hence the fact that we still have the same players from Nixon, Reagan continuing their criminal acts. I fear that Obama will not prosecute. I fear that he will skip the accountability…because he keeps talking about unity.
Oh bullshit.
Criticism is not restriction of free speech. Get over yourself.
And progressivism is ideological.
Eschew self parody.
Wes Clark..Male, Military, Catholic with a Jewish father..he covers a lot of bases.
I’m not ready for our candidates to forget this is a primary — a Democratic primary. You know, where they scramble to attract Democratic voters?
Did I miss the memo?
You know, the part where they point out the crazyness of the Republican candidates trying to out-Gitmo each other?
Where they reassure us that all of the destruction of our rights that happened with the rubber-stamp congress will go away when they are elected? Scratch that…
Oh yeah. Last Sunday I said here that I was taking off from and avoiding campain coverage until the 22nd. Almost made it and it was worth it. But last night I said “Fuck it.”
Get some eschewing tobacco. Likwe the ball players use.
no one in Illinois knew to avoid Rezko- not the Mayor not the County Board not the Governor whose involvement was vastly more extensive. Obama’s dealing with Rezko were miniscule and can’t compare to the Clinton issues which are really troubling.
Let’s face, BF – we are all addicted. No known cure.
I wouldn’t put it past her to select a DCC person, Rahm (who would pull Illinois) or Lieberman (who would counter McCain’s attempts at bipartisanship).
Military. Bases. Good one. You can’t put this stuff past me just ’cause I’ve been away for a week.
I love it when Pach wades into the comments!
The FDL chapter of Politics Anonymous. “Hi, I’m PhysioProf, and I’m a political junkie.”
what Obama accomplished is to get everyone talking about reagan instead of the abomination currently occupying the WH. And although its completely true that in his day, reagan too was an abomination – not quite as abominable as bush/cheney, but still thoroughly awful and criminal – for whatever reasons, conservatives have been able to morph the travesty and disgrace of the reagan legacy into fond memories for the many gulible, uninterested Americans (it really does help to own Big Media).
Whatever the intent or reality of Obama’s move, the distraction to reagan has been a tremendous damage to democrats in general and a boon to republicans. Perhaps this was something of Obama’s naivety that Clinton has been hammering on. Or perhaps its something much worse. Regardless, it was a thoroughly stoopid and damaging thing to do.
.
Clark has to be up at the top of the list. Would be good, too, to kinda counterbalance McCain (if he’s the R nominee) and the military thing.
The other DCC people with whom Hillary is allied do NOT want to bring in progressives. Ditto the problem for Dean and his vision of the party if she ends up being the candidate.
How do you pronounce Pachacutec?
Yesterday I used the word “nonsense” in response to someone’s comment, and my shit got jumped from here to Kansas City. I was being condescending and insulting.
Today, someone dismisses one of my comments as “Baloney”, I call them on it, and I’m at fault.
Nice.
O.k., thanks. But what do you mean when you say you fear that President Obama “will not prosecute?”
What I wonder is, what do you want to see him do, or not do, as President, to “prosecute?”
I am not so sure. Obama is looking toward the general election, and the need to pull independents into our side. Clinton, to the contrary, has maintained that she can pull it out, despite huge Republican negatives.
Hi PysioProf!!!!!!!
Surely you can see that people would have been offended had Truman at a press conference lauded Stalin’s ability to transform Eastern Europe following WWII.
We’re talking about a press conference here, not about a strategy session with the State Department. Similarly Obama was praising Reagan (and later the Republican Party) at a press conference.
But at times, in arguments with some of my friends on the left, I would find myself in the curious position of defending aspects of Reagan’s worldview. I didn’t understand why, for example, progressives should be less concerned about oppression behind the Iron Curtain than they were about brutality in Chile…
_______________
False dichotomy from Obama. Disingenuous bullshit. Obama is much smarter than this. He knows better. Pablum for the rubes, eh, Barack. I guess thr American public really is that stupid.
Pah-cha-KOO-tehk.
Sorry to go OT Pach, and even worse, blogwhore at the same time but my fifteen minutes are ticking away.
I think he said “bullshit” not “baloney”. Could be wrong.
Lahoma wants to know if I am thinking about riding our horses for a couple of hours down to the river. I wasn’t. But I am now. ;0)
I would suspect that Obama is directing his remarks to those who are a 1) young, and 2) former Reagan-Democrats/Independents sick of Bush.
If I recall the remarks pointed to are principally from his autobiography. They are thus NOT specifically targeted at the primary campaign. It was directed at an audience that would get him the “support staff” to move him to the nomination (principally, enthusiastic young voters and independents). It might also help him in a General Election.
1) The Young. There is a certain nostalgia towards Reagan by people in their 20-30’s simply because Reagan was an icon in their youth. Many would have grown up in Republican or Reagan-Democrat households hearing the praise of the man, and about how “dreadful” Carter was (an Iran crisis largely handed to him by Ford-Kissinger; and an oil crisis and stagflation passed on from Nixon and Ford). They have no conscious experience of any Presidents other than Reagan, Clinton, Bush Sr. and Dubya. Youthful memories obscure the actual events “that affected grown-ups” and other people worldwide. And without deep analysis they would not see how many of the acts and officials that led to the status of the US today as a declining, bankrupt empire go back to Reagan and Nixon. They have likely never heard otherwise from their parents, who constantly contrast Dubya with the “glory days” of Reagan. The younger voters themselves compare Dubya to the Clinton period. It’s an experiential thing.
2) The Reagan-Democrats. People are quite incapable of giving up imbedded positions that they supported. This makes it difficult for them to accept responsibility for supporting policies and individuals. Cognitive dissonance is at play here, and Obama doesn’t seem to be willing to challenge it directly.
I’d point out that the “nice things” that Obama said are mainly about superficial things like “unity” and “communication”. One can argue about whether Reagan left large numbers out of his unity, but the fact is, like Nixon, he rallied the country behind him. To what ends? That’s where on has to dissect policy. And Reagan was a great communicator…but that was simply because he reached to the Least Common Denominator and the Emotional standard of the public. That’s worrisome…the sign of a demogogue. Sometimes the public has to be not be talked down to and pandered. It’s also an indictment on our educational system.
I’d like to share this little snippet Candidates Rate Best Presidentsthat actually gives the Presidents of the other party that the Candidates most highly admire. All of the Democratic leaders loved Teddy Roosevelt (not Reagan) on his domestic policies and progressivism. The Republicans liked Truman for his Cold-War stances and anti-communism. I think that’s far more of a hint as to what the candidates are likely to implement than whether or not they admired Reagan’s communication skills. Of course, Roosevelt was involved in some very nasty expansionist events in the Philippines, was not averse to cracking down on labor demonstrations, and suppressed minority and gender political advancement. Plus he was a eugencist. In that regard he wasn’t much different from other Presidents of his era. His progressivism, in fact, is sometimes overplayed, and he mainly did it as a tactic to alleviate the rise of sentiment towards labor unions, the socialists, anarchists, and a variety of populist movements.
Eh, open thread. But for Book Salon later, we become on-topic
nazisfascists (thanks, Jonah!).We’ve missed him in the thick of it, haven’t we Teddy?
I’m of eastern European heritage. So I get that one alot. You gotta start sayin’ “Just like it’s spelled.”
The comment @ 88.
Prosecute as in charge and send to trial all the law breakers in the current adminsitration. Instead of doing what Gerry Ford did in 1974 with Nixon and what Bill Clinton did in 1993, which was to either isuse pardons or refuse to investigate further in “order that we may look to the future together rather than towards the past.”
Wojohowitz?
Gotta skip it, then. This keyboard kills fascists.
Hi, Beerfart!
Maybe he had to go home to work on some legal issues?
How anyone can argue that pardoning these folks is ‘looking to the past’ anymore is beyond me. The third time is the charm and all that. Otherwise it’s just a training exercise for the next generation of wingnuts in charge.
Best wishes for Little Katie… hope she is well soon! Will be thinking good thoughts for her.
Sweet! How many people clicked through?
bless you. Stay in bed and drink a lot of fluids.
A lot of the left after WW2 also despised FDR. They still couldn’t get over the fact that he brought out the troops to breakup the Veterans protests in Washington DC and didn’t jump into the war to suppress the fascists earlier. Then there was the fact that he did things that suppressed the coming Revolution just sent them through the roof.
There weren’t that many around that time of day
8(
My home town… I do miss it but they can keep the weather. Both winter BRRRRRand the sumer… sweat puring off you and the beaches smell to high heaven with all the mussels putrefying in the mid-day sun. Aghhh
Hi, Pete! OK, we’ve got our quorum.
Investigate, Interrogate, Indict, and Incarcerate any and all persons (including members of the Bush administration) who commissioned or committeed violations of the supreme law of the land:
which by the way the president takes an oath of office to do.
Mr Pierce:
Just offhand, I’d like to point out that I find your appellation “Hillary Girl” offensive. Would you like it if others called Senator Obama “Barack Boy?”
I thought not.
[RBG Note; the mods will remove comments using either of those terms from the thread.]
Well, it was an interview, actually. And he was discussing at that point in the interview presidents who were transformative and those whose effects were less lasting.
Surely you can see that Ronald Reagan’s presidency has had an effect on this country. I think he is correct in saying that Reagan’s presidency has had a more lasting effect than either Richard Nixon’s or Bill Clinton’s has. That’s all he said.
Has it come to the point that a candidate cannot objectively discuss the effects of a presidency of the other party without offending supporters of his own party? It seems to me that this is elevating form over substance. Obama is not advocating for Reagan’s policies. He’s advocating for Reagan’s political success. That seems exceptionally clear to me. Failing to make that distinction prominently enough may have been a failure of communication on his part, but I cannot for the life of me see how it can possibly constitute his “disrespecting” Democratic voters.
Ok. I lost track. 88 was baloney. 162 was bullshit. What are you sayin’ to these people?
Busted did you have any problems cleaning up the copies of the two posts?? My offer still stands as I saved them to my hard drive:>)
The mention of Reagan and Bush Sr. as favourites of hers occurs in a quote from the Salmon Press endorsement. The Salmon Press has issued a correction to the effect that Clinton said she admired Reagan’s communication skills, nothing more.
I agree. Obama waves a white flag of truce to Bushco every time he uses unity, bipartisanship and other such code words. Obama believes that he can get a whole bunch o’ white republican bigots to vote for him if he promises to play nice. Its not gonna happen.
Obama didn’t praise the content of the ideas Reagan had, and in fact I’ve pointed out and quoted the pages yesterday in Audacity of Hope where he trashed the actual content of Reagan’s ideas. But the “left wing nuts” I see hyperventilating over the mention of Reagan by Obama want to bellow instead of reading what Obama actually said about Reagan’s ideas.
For some people, if you mention someone on the otherside, even if it’s to take the content of their ideas apart, it’s the dog -whistle to go into a frenzie.
Hillary Girl is an appellation? Where is it from the Big Dipper?
GOP Former Alaska Governor, political maverick, nd the most popular retired Alaskan, Wally Hickel, endorses Obama:
I have no doubt that a President Obama will preside over the vigorously prosecution of anybody whom his Justice Department believes has violated the laws of the U.S., including members of the Bush Administration — certainly just as vigorously as would a President Clinton or a President Edwards.
He has taught constitutional law. I’m pretty confident he respects and will defend the Constitution of the U.S.
That’s what they saay at 12 step meetings when some says Hi, I’m ______ and I’m a ________holic. They scream HI!!! back at you. I quit goin’.
see, I thought Reagun was a great big phony… and I was rather surprised that Obama would hold that out as something good…
my 2 cents…
heated thread, went out to shovel and a 100 comments behind!
FWIW, regarding Edwards’s comment on Obama’s pean to Reagan, Kos wrote:
I think this is what you are looking for:
http://firedoglake.com/2008/01…..le-skills/
Keep comin’ back.
True dat. Speaking of which, I think it’s been a while since I posted the “Official PhysioProf Policy On Bipartisanship”:
I don’t want my party to “build bridges” to the psychopathic racist sexist authoritarian sick fucks that are the remaining dregs of the Republican Party. I want my party to adopt a clear unambiguous progressive platform that repudiates all of the pathology of the degenerate Republican Party.
To the extent that there are any Republicans who are sick of the depravity of their party, and not too addled to recognize that it is their party that has single-handedly created the national clusterfuck we are currently embroiled in, they are welcome to join us. Otherwise, they can all go fuck themselves.
I’ll feel better when I hear him say that and not just his supporters.
I just had a horrid thought.
When Tony Blair was pitching for leader of the Labour Party here and then for the General Election, he used to admit to admiration of Margaret Thatcher. And we all thought he was just being inclusive. He got to power and dammit he meant it!
Beware America.
She put the damned piece on her website because it was seen by her staff to be favorable to her. She is responsible for what she puts on her website. Now that she is taking flak for it she is saying something else. If she had a problem with it originally, she never would have put it up there. And, of course Bill Clinton has said much the same thing. Sorry, but she cannot have it both ways. This is simply typical of her attack, cheat, do what ever she can to get elected. I find it dispicable.
I wouldn’t know where to start or what I was doing in the first place. It’s all HTML to me, which stands for Highway to Hell, gibberish.
Twk3 sent me a copy that is clean and I have the email copy.That’s enough for me. I appreciate it though.
Do you want the Democratic candidate to make an effort to get independent and Republican voters in the election this fall, or would you rather s/he try to alienate them?
Whichever frontrunner Democrat we elect in 2008 will be a bygones President. It’s the price the elites will extract for their support: no show trials of BushCo, look forward not backward, urgent business to get on with, let’s not be distracted by the past, blah blah blah
“Off the table” is a construction whose time has come.
Actually I think Hillary and Ronnie Reagan have much in common.Hillary and Bill have both credited Reagan in the past but convenience is the handmaiden of opportunity in the political world and how convenience Obama’s atatement was on the eve of the Nevada primary.(Not real smart, you eggheads running the campaign-it’s still the primary and no red meat).Like Ronnie Hillary pounces on opportunity. Hillary like RR eschews giving up our powers to International bodies, they favor big cash for and from defense contractors and both support landmines and cluster bombs and all the goodies, they both favor free trade without any protections of workers, and they both raked in hugh corporate cash Ron hated unions and Hillary seeks their support but doesn’t let their plight worry her while sitting on Walmart’s and other corporate Board of Directors.And oh yes both are actors.
Shit; I didn’t know that. It seems to also be an FDL thing.
Isn’t Roberts a constitutional lawyer?
See @221.
“I’ll feel better when I hear him say that and not just his supporters.”
Have you been to hear him speak?
I have. He can take the bark off of ‘em.
This, for instance, was a pretty good comment of his:
Barack Obama’s remarks delivered on 26 October 2002 in Chicago at Federal Plaza at an anti Iraq war rally organized by the ANSWER coalition.
“Good afternoon. Let me begin by saying that although this has been billed as an anti-war rally, I stand before you as someone who is not opposed to war in all circumstances.
The Civil War was one of the bloodiest in history, and yet it was only through the crucible of the sword, the sacrifice of multitudes, that we could begin to perfect this union, and drive the scourge of slavery from our soil.
I don’t oppose all wars.
My grandfather signed up for a war the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed, fought in Patton’s army. He saw the dead and dying across the fields of Europe; he heard the stories of fellow troops who first entered Auschwitz and Treblinka. He fought in the name of a larger freedom, part of that arsenal of democracy that triumphed over evil, and he did not fight in vain.
I don’t oppose all wars.
After September 11th, after witnessing the carnage and destruction, the dust and the tears, I supported this Administration’s pledge to hunt down and root out those who would slaughter innocents in the name of intolerance, and I would willingly take up arms myself to prevent such a tragedy from happening again.
I don’t oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.
What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income – to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.
That’s what I’m opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.
Now let me be clear – I suffer no illusions about Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal man. A ruthless man. A man who butchers his own people to secure his own power. He has repeatedly defied UN resolutions, thwarted UN inspection teams, developed chemical and biological weapons, and coveted nuclear capacity.
He’s a bad guy. The world, and the Iraqi people, would be better off without him.
But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history.
I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.
I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars.
So for those of us who seek a more just and secure world for our children, let us send a clear message to the president today. You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s finish the fight with Bin Laden and al-Qaeda, through effective, coordinated intelligence, and a shutting down of the financial networks that support terrorism, and a homeland security program that involves more than color-coded warnings.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure that the UN inspectors can do their work, and that we vigorously enforce a non-proliferation treaty, and that former enemies and current allies like Russia safeguard and ultimately eliminate their stores of nuclear material, and that nations like Pakistan and India never use the terrible weapons already in their possession, and that the arms merchants in our own country stop feeding the countless wars that rage across the globe.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to make sure our so-called allies in the Middle East, the Saudis and the Egyptians, stop oppressing their own people, and suppressing dissent, and tolerating corruption and inequality, and mismanaging their economies so that their youth grow up without education, without prospects, without hope, the ready recruits of terrorist cells.
You want a fight, President Bush? Let’s fight to wean ourselves off Middle East oil, through an energy policy that doesn’t simply serve the interests of Exxon and Mobil.
Those are the battles that we need to fight. Those are the battles that we willingly join. The battles against ignorance and intolerance. Corruption and greed. Poverty and despair.
The consequences of war are dire, the sacrifices immeasurable. We may have occasion in our lifetime to once again rise up in defense of our freedom, and pay the wages of war. But we ought not – we will not – travel down that hellish path blindly. Nor should we allow those who would march off and pay the ultimate sacrifice, who would prove the full measure of devotion with their blood, to make such an awful sacrifice in vain.”
I so wish you were wrong about that, but I’m afraid you are right.
But don’t you want to get us elected so we can do something? Get real! :-) (I guess this is the attack thread, as we fire up for the game).
My apologies for the double post
And didn’t Senator Obama vote against the confirmation of Justice Roberts?
I thought I was saying something like “Well, it was an interview, actually. And he was discussing at that point in the interview presidents who were transformative and those whose effects were less lasting.
Surely you can see that Ronald Reagan’s presidency has had an effect on this country. I think he is correct in saying that Reagan’s presidency has had a more lasting effect than either Richard Nixon’s or Bill Clinton’s has. That’s all he said.
Has it come to the point that a candidate cannot objectively discuss the effects of a presidency of the other party without offending supporters of his own party? It seems to me that this is elevating form over substance. Obama is not advocating for Reagan’s policies. He’s advocating for Reagan’s political success. That seems exceptionally clear to me. Failing to make that distinction prominently enough may have been a failure of communication on his part, but I cannot for the life of me see how it can possibly constitute his “disrespecting” Democratic voters.”
It must be my accent.
H/T twc1 @ 207.
If you take a look at various opinion polls, you’ll find that many of them suggest that the overwhelming majority (>60%) of the voting-age citizens of the United States support what is essentially the platform of the progressive wing of the Democratic Party–withdraw almost all troops from Iraq immediately; drastically roll-back the unconscionable tax cuts that the very-rich, ultra-rich, and corporations have accumulated over the last couple decades; provide single-payer universal health care to every person in the United States; restore the proper balance of powers between the Executive branch and the other two (particularly the Legislative); stop torturing, illegally surveilling, and otherwise violating our Constitution and treaties.
If a true progressive Democratic presidential candidate (Edwards is close, but lacking in a few respects) had the opportunity to promulgate his or her progressive platform to the people of the United States without the grotesque and despicable distorting effect of the corporate oligarchy controlled mainstream media, this candidate would win election by a landslide, without even attempting to specifically appeal to “moderate Republicans” .
Other than the 30% or so of truly batshit-insane neo-confederate wackadoodles (listen to the people that call in on the Republican phone line on C-SPAN’s morning show, Washington Journal if you want to know what I’m talking about), rational Republicans know that their party is in the grip of a core of truly evil and insane people. Enough of them know in their hearts what is best for their own pocketbooks and social freedom, as well as for the nation, that they will vote for a progressive Democrat without specific attempts to pander to “batshit-crazy-lite” Republicans.
Surely you can see how Truman advocating in a televised interview for Stalin’s political success might have pissed people off. If you don’t get it, go into any Cuban bar in Florida, and “advocate for” Castro’s political success (without commenting on whether you think it was for better or for worse).
I am sticking with Edwards (part of the same handful who refused to go over to the H & O Railroad yesterday in Nevada). It will be hard for me to vote for the H & O in the general, but I will do it solely because they will appoint better judges than anyone any R will appoint.
So has Hillary. But Edwards got what he calls an “apology” out first (in 2006…some 4 years after the vote). Hillary has said that her vote was based on false statements about WMD’s and that it was not a vote to invade before the inspection process was complete. In that sense she refuses to apologise for something that Bush, not herself, was responsible for.
I’d also point out that Edwards was directly involved in convincing Kerry not to renounce the vote on the IAUF during the 2004 Presidential campaign. He told McCain that they should be proud of their vote to remove Saddam, and that their strategy should simply be on the manner the war was being fought. That to me sounds like the current front-runner in the Republican Party.
Driving by.
Raygun was a bought and paid for lackey. It was during his admin that the neocons were allowed to sprout and flourish. The only good thing I could think of to say about him is that he is six feet under.
Just one more year of the bast**ds in the WH. The countdown has started. Yippee!!
That should be the party platform. :)
redundancy
On the contrary, Hillary refuses to call her vote a mistake.
Wigwam: He wasn’t advocating for Reagan’s political success. He was acknowledging it.
I wouldn’t want President Truman getting up in a press conference, or in an interview, and denying that Stalin had managed to intimidate and control Eastern Europe. I’d want him instead to acknowledge it.
But your analogy is flawed. Truman and Stalin were leaders at the same time. It’s as if President Clinton had made a remark about Stalin’s control over Eastern Europe and failed to say immediately that he disapproved of Stalin’s policies. And then a bunch of Americans accused Clinton of disrespecting them and the U.S. because he failed to condemn Stalin.
I straightened out w/o the meetings. About 15 years now. maybe more.
Uh, what?
The vast majority of the accusations of “racism” against the Clintons were baseless:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..81318.html
And in case you forgot, Obama isn’t exactly winning ethical points:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNrlSn7ndAA&e
By the way, Obama wants to reassess America’s ineffective 48-year-old policy of embargo towards Cuba. That’s another way in which he is more progressive and pragmatic than Clinton in this race.
The 08 presidential election will be decided by independants.
The nominee will probably run against McCain- who does well with them.
Dem nominee must be inside the “acceptable range” for these voters.
Don’t think it’s necessary to say nice things about the Gipper to get the indie vote, but it IS necessary to appear to be a “centerist”.
Last thing these voters want is another four years of “Wars of Ideology”. They just want someone to fix the problem and quit cackling about it constantly.
Hey, we can dream, right?
Congrats!
I’m not program, I just know the lingo. I was jes’ playin’
Agree with you sentiments…but everytime you use that phrase “Hillary girl” you drive me away from doing so. It sort of makes me wonder what issues and policies are distinctive between Edwards and Clinton and Obama…and what is simply adolescent name-calling?
Hey, that ain’t nice!
true
Wrong, the paper misquoted her.
Wow. That’s right. Bush leaves exactly one year from now. I cannot wait.
No problem I was/am happy to help!
Any chance of these two PC candidates will stop their childishness and get back to 1/ Talking about ISSUES and 2/ Doing something about them, both being Senators?
I still support Edwards.
It seems to me that the Democrats of our country have a short memory. I’m at a point where I can’t trust the Democrats in my state or across this country to pick a progressive candidate this year, so I will be making a stand this year by caucusing for Dennis Kucinich on February 10th, even if he’s not in the race by then. My second vote will be “uncommitted” because I cannot wrap my brain any of the top 3 Democratic candidates, because 2 voted for the Iraq invasion, and 2 have continued to fund it. I could say to myself, “Well, any of these 3 are better than a republican”, but that is not sitting right in my heart.
I feel like our country will remain on the same path for years to come.
A leftist can win the White House, but only by running as a centerist.
“He wasn’t advocating for Reagan’s political success. He was acknowledging it”
There seems to be some difficulty acknowledging this simple truth. It’s almost like it’s more convenient to use this as a stick to beat Obama with.
A Convenient Untruth, so to speak.
Direct quote from your #207:
Can we not use the insulting language even if it is in question for why others are using it?
It does not make us look good methinks.
And, you look at other poles that make it clear that Americans at this point in time want to put behind them the political clobbering that is getting us no where (key word bi-partisanship). Now personally I would LOVE to burn the Rethugs for what they have done, but that is not where the voters are. And, this sentiment works strongly against Hillary.
While, I can appreciate your point of view, the feeling I get is that neither Barack nor Hillary will endeavor to bring Bushco lawbreakers to justice. I am disgusted by Obama’s calls for unity (comity), bipartisanship, reaching across the aisle (a reach around), and inviting Republicans to participate in his administration. I think Obama has a chance with Independents. Obama can avoid alienating Democrats and Independents by co-opting Edwards’s schtick. IMHO, he hasn’t got a prayer with registered Republicans.
Yup.
We all hope and pray.
To be honest, Clinton isn’t waging the “race” fight; the press did and Obama didn’t mind (Remember how he put out the flames after Biden’s remarks? Plus Jesse Jackson, Jr. and that SC primary memo show they rather enjoy it.)
I think all wonky Clinton wants to do is get on the issues. However, I hope that if she gets the nomination she doesn’t mention that she’d be the first woman president–even at the convention. Everyone knows. Speak in vague terms, like, “Breaking boundaries.” But constantly mentioning gender will cause blowback.
While I might agree with the idea, he is immediately writing off South Florida by advertising the fact.
Either way, it is not how to advance a progressive agenda, which is what people criticizing Obama about this want.
H&O RR. That’s good. I’m sticking w/ Edwards too. Unfortunately my state’s primary win’t count for shit. But the pioint about judges is excellent. Bush said he’d appoint peope like Scalia and he did. Too many people didn’t know what that meant and didn’t bother to find out or they didn’t care enough.
Wrong back. She had that paper on her website. The responsibility is HERS not to put something on her website that does not reflect her view point.
Yeah Bill engaged in “boat discrimination” Cubans can come in but Haitians must go back and face military junta firing squads. After all the Florida vote was at stake for his re-election for Prsident. It worked but ir only illustrates the depth of Clinton duplicity.
“If you can’t stomp your boot heel on the throat of your opponent when he’s down, when will you ever, ever do it?
Oh, right: we’re talking about Democrats, who, politically, have a famous taste for the capillaries (except when they’re up against their base). Hopefully, those liberal primary swing voters will force the eventual nominee to fight for real progressive values.“
I have spent a lifetime litigating, negotiating and fighting to resolve problems for people who have little power of their own. And over the years I have learned, the hard way, that the urge to utterly devastate and humiliate your opponent is only planting the seeds for your next battle. People can accept defeat, but they don’t accept humiliation. The urge to go for the jugular may be very satisfying to your ego, but it makes bad policy. As Malcolm X once observed, you need to offer your adversary a chance, even though he probably won’t take it.
It is easy, when you seem to be on the ascendency to want to rub your opponents face in the dirt, but it’s a urge best resisted. For after the election you will have to govern and when you govern there will be ups and downs. And you can bet your house that the booted neck will be waiting for his/her chance to return the favor – usually at the most inconvenient time. With all of the challenges that Bush will leave to the next President, we can ill afford a divided party, or a divided nation.
As to Reagan – like it or not, he changed the way politics was done in this country for a generation. I am/was anti-Reagan, but recognizing his skill at being able to change the political conversation is not to to glorify him, any more than recognizing Franco made his police efficient is to glorify his dictatorial regime. If you can’t learn from the successes of your enemies, you are doomed to repeat losing strategies. Democrats need to be able to learn from what the Repubs have done well, if for no other reason than to prevent them from having success doing it again.
Among the greatest failures of the Bush Administration is the way he took a country unified by tragedy and pain, and a world horrified by brutality, and managed through arrogance and the unthinking application of force, to splinter that unity and alienate those who would have partnered with us in the post-9/11 era.
Obama is a post-9/11 politician, one who realizes that the arrogance of power and the division of the country does not serve our long term interests. There is a time for strength and humility to be married. I would rather have an American Mandela, than another “strong Commander in Chief”. Mandela united and freed a nation with humility and strength. Then he reconciled with bitter enemies for the good of his nation.
President Clinton and Sen. Clinton are brilliant, talented people. But they also have grown thin skinned from the constant attacks from the left. They react these days as if everyone who criticizes them or disagrees is their enemy. All of us need to take a step back and realize that we are all Americans in this stew together. Putting your boot on the neck of your neighbor is a bad way to try to rebuild your community.
No one’s ignoring it. It’s just logically irrelevant, and completely beside the point of anything I wrote in the main post.
See also Jane’s link upthread to Jerome Armstrong. Occam’s Razor indeed.
To make clear: Clinton did have three separate occasions of “racial” trouble:
Shaheen. Kerrey. Johnson.
Shaheen was the worst because he was staff (He was fired and she apologized, but still..). Obama’s camp has been more blatant and aggressive, which is understandable considering the press doesn’t call them out on it.
I’d also like to add:
Personally, I don’t like Obama using Ronald Reagan’s name as a way to get “conservative democrats” to his side and to use his name as a way to lambaste Bill Clinton (I’m not thrilled that ole Bill hung out with Bush Sr. all these years…still bothers me). That said, I think Obama is correct in that Democrats in government are not good at framing the debate. Sad, but that’s the way it is right now.
I know.. Most importantly, I wasn’t subjected to an “intervention.”
What percentage of FDL posts since Iowa have been devoted to the Hillary-Obama matchup? It looks to be quite high, just scrolling back through them.
This place can have a positive effect on the 2008 races, especially US House races. This Hillary-Obama discussion, especially when it gets wackily partisan, is a total fucking waste of time, energy, and dissipates goodwill here.
This has been SO disproven: It was Cuomo, Johnson, Bill and her various surrogates that did it at a key moment in time. No disrespect, but are you one of Hillary’s paid bloggers?
Thanks for the lecture.
I teach negotiation at one of the top tier MBA programs in the country. May I have you come to guest lecture one of my classes?
We’re nowhere near that point you suggest, unless you’re arguing we have a progressive governing majority in place and have had for some time.
I thought we taxpayers were forced to pay more than $50 million dollars for the Republican investigation into the Clintons.
They couldn’t find anything, so ran a blue dress up a flagpole and screamed about it.
People really need to get over it.
What? What’s worse: falsely claiming that Clinton admired Reagan or that her camp made an innocent mistake? You said she was “proud” and that’s just not true. Again, they made a mistake, but the paper’s mistake was worse.
The success of his policies, relative to what he was trying to achieve. Not the substance of the policies themselves.
He was successful in what he was trying to do. He achieved his goals.
Wigwam: and wouldn’t you like to see a two-term Democratic President whose presidency proved transformative, whose policies greatly affected national politics, whose VP got elected when he stepped down, and whose ultimate death a few years later the country commemorated for an entire week?
Here’s why I think she’s wrong on that: she is a Senator with oversight powers. That’s why they call it Checks and Balances. She failed to check this President when she had the opportunity. They didn’t have to punk him. They should just have presented him with a much tighter contract that was more of a meeting of the minds.
On nearly every example of bullying and aggression in this campaign on the Dem side that I have seen, it has been the Clintons. And it goes back in part to their Rovian adviser, Penn.
Principle over practicality-a debate worth having
You are aware that Clinton was dealing with a Republican congress that was already upset that he had intervened at ALL in Haiti? And the cuban policies were just a continuation of US policy since Castro took power.
Maybe so, but he’s picking up votes throughout the midwest. Plus, it’s the right thing to do — which is also important.
Ouch! Well, Pete, at least he didn’t chracterize your comment as “horseshit”, so I guess ya gotta take progress wherever you can get it.
I second that! What will history say? They took impeachment off the table. What cowards, they could/would not impeach/prosecute a president who has so egregiously violated the constitution and the rule of law.
We will be judge poorly by the future historians and future presidents will feel empowered by our lack of courage! They will flaunt the constitution as this dickward has and will continue do with the backing of darth himself… Why should they do differently? I would love to know a logical to that!
If we don’t start a war with Iran I will be completely surprised.
Well staffers put things on websites. And they generally put things on that are endorsements from newspapers.
I’d like to actually SEE an interview or some sort of personal statement that she had actually cited Bush Sr. and Reagan as two of her favorite Presidents. It’s odd because the list doesn’t even include her stated favorite Republican President, Teddy Roosevelt.
Candidates Name Favorite Presidents…from the other Party
So it’s curious that there is this list, without any attribution or remarks about why they are her (supposed) favorites.
I don’t know if you saw this.
It might clear some of this up.
He needs to continue the investigations, he needs to make sure that legal consequences are pursued in regard to violations of geneva conventions, fisa, so that we recover our bill of rights. If he decides to put it all behind us, facism wins another one, and we will be no closer to stopping the criminal behavior of this administration that we have since Nixon.
If we are going to have REAL change, not just lip service, we have to be willing to “get that protection order” and accept that “we are in the most danger when we confront the behavior head on”. This is not the time to focus on getting along. That comes AFTER accountability because there is no way to impose accountability and stay “friendly” with the criminals.
Yep. That’s where I am right now. In fact, once one of the top 3 Democratic candidates is chosen for the ballot this year, I will officially unenroll from the party. That’s how disenfranchised I am right now. It’s a sad reality for me because I’ve always been a gung-ho Democratic my whole life.
Reagan is dead and I think it was stupid of both of them to even mention his name. They need to talk about things that are a lot more important.
I put up the website address yesterday or the day before – linkit and you will see there the page in which her “favorite” Presidents are listed, among these Jefferson etc, but also including Reagan, Bush Sr. and of course Bill.
That’s a misplaced fear. And you’ve totally forgotten Congress in the equation. They’ve been dead at the switch. The Dems have been voting every idiot Bush bill that’s come before the 110th and 11th Congress. Just watch them next week on the Intell bill.
What ET said! In spades!
Only congress can declare war. She delegated the most awesome responsibility
that she was given.Robert Byrd made an eloquent appeal but Hillary had her earmuffs on. The Clinton policy was regime change- Bush took the next step- and maybe there was not that much disagreement as far as she was concerned.Actions speak louder than words.
Indeed. I thought that this was one of the big reasons that Hiullary and Obama were supposed to lose. And the fact that Edwards wasn’t going to appeal to the Republicans was why he was going to win. I suspect that surveys showed less “opposition” to Edwards simply because he was so far below the radar that most of those who said that they “definitely would not vote for” him simply didn’t think he was a plausible candidate. Biden, Dodd, Robertosn and Kucinich got similar ratings. The problem was that they also didn’t have people say that they supported them, as well.
Not necessarily. Unspecified transformation scares the shit out of me. I don’t believe in change for its own sake, because when people do that the direction for change gets coopted in some ugly directions. In the early ’30s the German people wanted change and felt that anything was better than when they had. Look what they got.
Also, I consider incumbent blue dogs to be worse than Republican, because it requires beating an incumbent to get a progressive into office.
Ian has a nice new post upstairs about “Essential Insanity”!
New thread! Ian in da’ house.
it would be really helpful if everyone stopped talking about reagan and get back to the important issues of the day. Talking about reagan is a win ONLY for republicans.
.
And if HRC’d quoted selectively from the Salmon Press endorsement, someone would find the original and diss her for it. She got the endorsement, she posted it in full on her website, and the Salmon Press clarified.
I think it is disingenuous on your part to harp on the mistake of the Salmon Press as something you would attribute to her, when you know that there’s been a correction issued.
You’re partisan, that’s fine, but Obama’s got more of a problem with what he said regarding Reagan than Hillary does for what she said.
“Putting your boot on the neck of your neighbor is a bad way to try to rebuild your community.”
An exceptionally well-thought and well-written post, thanks.
And we badly need to rebuild our national community about now — from the Gulf Coast to the bridges over the Mississippi to Alaskan tundra.
If you look at the issues, the ‘center’ is tracking more liberal than our mainstream candidates on the war, health care, and just about every other top voting issue except maybe ’security’ — and that’s only because there is no PR outside of ‘terra terra terra’ on that issue IMHO. I think a few pictures of that bridge in MN and Katrina, maybe a reminder of Aquadots
Reagan was successful because he was a likeable puppet and talking head for the neo con agenda. Period. HE was nothing brilliant. He had the backing of big money and lots of strategy that was all about a disingenuis lie.
He should never be used as an example of success unless you think subverting democracy for the corporatocracy is “success”.
Naive.
Mind you this is from her Internet director: http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..152/439202
Key part (hope it helps):
David Cutler, the co-owner of Salmon Press Newspapers, released the following statement:
The question posed was originally what portraits would you hang in the White House if you were President and as the dialogue progressed, who are the presidents you admire most?
She [Sen. Clinton] listed several presidents that she admired and mentioned she liked Reagan’s communication skills. She did not say Reagan was her favorite President. She didn’t say anything close to that.
So do I have any factual reason to believe that he will be a “leader” and lead congress to hold them accountable?? I don’t believe there are any at this point.
That is a good comment!
Mr. TeddySan Fran:
You kidding? I’ve seen tons of nicknames for candidates here including the posts on the front page. I’ve seen tons of nicknames for Bush, for Huckabee, for Rudy 912. Hillary is a girl, and her name is Hillary. It’s as simple as that. What in the world are you fingering as offensive?
Use the First Amendment any way you think it’s approprite.
She’s Hillary and last time I checked, she’s a girl. Obama boy has racial overtones, so you make your own call, but answering my questions before I do obviates your reason for asking.
[RBG Note; I said it yesterday, and I will say it again today. The use of that term will result in the mods removing your comment from the thread. ]
And I think it is disingenous of her to attack Obama, and lie about what he said in this context, when she celebrated Reagan on her website, and Bill Clinton has praised him in the past.
I guess we’ll have to agree to differ. The reality today is that it appears that the race will come down to HRC or Obama. I don’t believe that HRC will ever be anything like as progressive as Obama will, if elected.
I also agree with Jane’s comments about shifting the narrative, but such change will be incremental, and an Obama presidency (absent Edwards) represents our best chance of creating the framework for those changes.
This action was taken by Presidential authority and the President knew full well what the fate of the Haitian boat people would be- he had given arms to the Haitian military.Just because it had been Republican policy to accept Cubans does not make it right. Clinton placed more” political “value in their lives. The politically oppressed have always looked on America as the last bastion of hope.They expected it from the first ” black ” President.So probably byu the way did the Ruandans.
And, thank you for making my point. This was in large part what Obama said. He admired REagan’s ability to communicate a message that appealed in various ways to the population at large.
Barack’s biggest mistake was that he didn’t realize that trivial remarks will be picked up by a media intent upon stirring up controversy.
At least she in consistent at being disingenuous
Hear, hear the maestro ET!
Um, yeah, I take issue with the statement that conservatism has been a failure.
Isms – in the generally stable, post-WW2 American political environment – don’t matter as much as leaders themselves. So for all the nasty shit that Reagan willfully remained ignorant of, accelerating the fall of communism did the world quite a bit of good – go ask anyone in the Baltics or Eastern Europe.
Reagan was a movement president, but more than that he was a good communicator and effective leader. Bush II tried to ram home as best he could parts of what we call “conservatism”, but was a failure because he’s just not a good leader. One could make the same case about Carter & liberalism.
I see a lot of go-team-blue in the this Reagan controversy on the left. “Look Reagan may have done a few good things but we can’t go around admitting that”. That’s intellectually dishonest, and if that’s your foundation for what progressivism is better, it’s hollow and will fall through.
It’s time for some folks to turn it down a notch or the mods will remove even more comments from the thread.
Hillary Clinton is not a “girl”. She is a grown woman and a United States Senator. It is plainly misogynistic to call her a girl. This is why the mods are telling you to stop doing it.
ditto I am feeling the same way
We’re scrimmaging for the Repubs.
LOL-yup!
According to Drudge Obama just took off the gloves in an interview for good morning America-stay tuned- He went after” Bill the Shill”
We better get ready for WW3. They will do anything and everything to hold power it’s been real good for them.
True dat!
Bill the Shill for Hill the Shill. Sounds right.
He said that stuff in a televised interview. WTF would anyone in their right mind expect?
but even Republicans have come to regret Dubya.
There’s absolutely no reason to reaffirm anyone’s mistaken rearview/nostalgia of Reagan–one of the most divisive and damaging presidents ever. That’s what the Republicans do to get some reflected glory–Obama obviously wants some too, but he insults the whole base in doing so–yet again.
Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough for some folks. The use of racist and sexist terms will results in comments being removed from the thread.
Thanks.
Reagan like Bush spent all the money – mostly giveaways to corporate welfare and fat cat tax dodges and left future generations the bill, but he was more cautious than the hair- triggered ” W”
I agree. The Right has been very successful in achieving their aims. Look at how effectively they’ve manipulated the working classes to transfer wealth into their pockets. It’s briliant, really.
Markos Moulitsas and Jerome Armstrong said as much in Crashing the Gate.
newspaper endorsement interview with a conservative paper-but with cameras rolling
Just to be clear, I’m in total agreement with you. ;-)
I see a lot of go-team-blue in the this Reagan controversy on the left.
That’s what primaries are for–to pick our very own “team blue” candidate. Obama is supposed to be wanting–and trying to win–our votes, not Republicans or Independents.
For the record, many grown women refer to themselves as “girl,” e.g. “You go girl.”
I’ve said countless times there is nothing “mysogynic” in my solid criticisms of the hypocrisy of Hillary.
I’ve said countless times that nicknames are being used all over FDL for Candidates including on the front page.
I’ve also not been able to respond to many critical comments because RBG routinely and reflexively has been blocking my comments for the last week–no matter how “inoffensive.”
That’s why there is no response. I also tried to respond to Mr. Teddy San Fran to say that many frontpagers use nicknames for candidates, including Jane Hamsher and Christy Smith, and Teddy San Fran,and I can reproduce links to them.
LOL but 95% of my comments are being blocked and the ones that get up take 10 minutes to get up.
They don’t at EW so it’s far from accidental. It’s filtering and screening. My browser is working fine, and I’ve helped on IE/XP/Vista groups for years. It ain’t my boxes.
[RBG Note; it’s no accident and it will continue until such time as the mods believe you understand what I have been trying to tell you.]
new book takes that theme- ” Free Lunch “
somebody needs to tell him that
No one will win a solid majority without independents and Republicans. That’s the reality. I’m not talking about a 51/49 split. We need a mandate.
Please understand that the Republicans resent Bush only for his incompetent execution. They remain in complete agreement with his goals. They’d build more Guantanimos and torture more detainees. Bush’s error was getting caught.
Hmmmm. Bush is getting nearly everything he wants without a mandate and with Congress in control of what is laughingly called the opposition party. Perhaps it’s his tactics and strategy we should praise.
Go right ahead.
Watch Obama’s speeches. I’ve watched Clinton’s voting record, and I have every indication she votes Bush on every conceivable vote. I’ve also watched her tactics towards Obama–they take this country’s civil rights advances back several giant steps.
Her Iraq stance is focus-group driven, completely nebulous (an “enigma enshrouded in a mystery”) as are the details of all her initiatives, and in particular her vague health care plan.
There is reason to believe that an unabashedly progressive Democratic candidate can win a solid majority–including some independents and Republican voters–without pandering or moving to “the center”.
What about the pro-Obama Culinary Unions airing of the “Hillary is not supporting “La Raza”" TV ads in Spanish broadcast just before the Nevada Primary?
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Why are you filtering and blocking every post where I’ve tried to respond and make the point that what you deem sexist is not deemed sexist by most of the world? We have a great number of people here who are swallowing every thing Senator Clinton Grown Lady (how’s that) pitches as gosspel and don’t see the constant facade of hypocrisy.
I’ve also tried to respond but you’re blocking the responses that nicknames are used for every candidate by all the front page posters and many commenters.
I’ve also not been able to respond to many critical comments because RBG routinely and reflexively has been blocking my comments for the last week–no matter how “inoffensive.”
95% of my comments are being blocked and the ones that get up take 10 minutes to get up. Normally they would appear right away.
They don’t at EW so it’s far from accidental. It’s filtering and screening. My browser is working fine, and I’ve helped on IE/XP/Vista groups for years. It ain’t my boxes.
Criticsm of Hillary Clinton is not mysogynic. It’s aimed at getting someone in the Oval who will turn this country around. It’s no more mysogynic than criticism of Obama is racial.
Nicknames abound ubiquitously at FDL. They are everywhere. I have never typed a mysogynic word towards Clinton. I have, and will continue to launch criticism of her until Super Tuesday takes her out of the race.
Stop using the term and your posts will not be blocked…is there some reason you have to use the term to Communicate policy issues. You are not using it in a positive sense as in “You go girl”. Context indicates you are using it in a sexist and demeaning manner, As I said earlier, if you continue to use the term it demonstrates some persistant abusive misogynistic tendencies. As a champion of the Obama campaign you should understand that it reflects on his supporters.
I’m an “undecided” as my favored candidate will soon withdraw. If you persist I’ll have to seriously consider the attitudes and behaviors of supporters as one factor in whom I vote for.
You’re doing nothing in favor of Obama here.
Pete, please refresh your browser and read this entire thread.
FWIW, I have stated quite clearly that the use of several terms you repeatedly have used are not acceptable here. What the rest of the world may think is not my concern.
Until the mods are convinced you will abide by FDL standards, they will continue to screen your comments before they appear in the threads.
I’ll try to use “Senator Hillary Grown Woman” to remind myself of her irresponsible votes, and that she is old enough to know better but can’t help herself.
Criticsm of Hillary Clinton is not mysogynic. It’s aimed at getting someone in the Oval who will turn this country around. It’s no more mysogynic than criticism of Obama is racial.
Nicknames abound ubiquitously at FDL. They are everywhere. I have never typed a mysogynic word towards Clinton. I have, and will continue to launch criticism of her until Super Tuesday takes her out of the race.
For the record, many grown women refer to themselves as “girl,” e.g. “You go girl.” I see that particular admonition often on the late night threads here.
Be that as it may. I know men who call themselves boys. “Atta boy!” I would no more refer to Sen. Barack Obama as a “boy” than I would cut my tongue out. Get it?
That’s simply a false statement. You can’t produce “several terms” I’ve used that aren’t acceptable here–that’s verbal lynching by implication. Show me “several terms I’ve used” that aren’t accepatable here. You can’t. You have my email address–email them to me. You can’t.
I have copies of all my posts, and none of them have terms that aren’t acceptable here, and you’re still blocking them. You’re implying something serious, that isn’t taking place by blocking them.
What are being blocked are ideas. And you’re trying to discourage my posting by making my comments take ten full minutes to come up, and right now 4/5 of them don’t show up.
None of them have “terms that are not acceptable here,” particularly in light of what has been acceptable here by others. It’s too bad that you won’t show all the posts your blocking that have nothing anyone could construe as mysogynic or otherwise unacceptable.
What is happening, is that you’re screening criticisms of candidates when the criticism offends YOU.
Why don’t you just refer to all candidates on both sides by their respective honorifics and then make your point? You’d waste a lot less of your time and get your point across as well. Just sayin’… Now I’m off to read the next thread. Be well.
Dude, no one ever said that criticism of Hillary Clinton is misogynistic, nor that use of critical nicknames is impermissible. I am not sure why you are having so much trouble understanding the difference between calling Clinton “Hillary Girl” (misogynistic) and “Hill the Shill” (not misogynistic).
“Hillary has said that her vote was based on false statements about WMD’s and that it was not a vote to invade before the inspection process was complete. In that sense she refuses to apologise for something that Bush, not herself, was responsible for.”
Ann in AZ: “Here’s why I think she’s wrong on that: she is a Senator with oversight powers. That’s why they call it Checks and Balances. She failed to check this President when she had the opportunity. They didn’t have to punk him. They should just have presented him with a much tighter contract that was more of a meeting of the minds.”
I agree, but she has said that she would not have voted for the IAUF IF she had known about the absence of WMD’s. She’s also said that we wouldn’t have been in Iraq, and taken care of things with Obama in Iraq if she had known the factual intelligence.
Both Clinton AND Edwards were on the Senate Intelligence Committee and both relied on the testimony of Bush Officials and the CIA to make their decisions. Edwards has said that he “regretted” doing so, and his vote was wrong (because of this). He and Hillary also failed to read the NIE. Whether that would have changed their vote is an open question. The fact is that both VOTED for the IAUF, both had the opportunity to resist Bush. They voted to approve the Authorization even when 22 Democratic Senators did NOT. And when there was substantial resistance in the House as well. Many of their peers did NOT trust the President.
If Edwards has anything on Clinton it’s that he was the first of the two to say that he was “fooled” and has actually used the word “apologize”. I’m not sure if there is something in Clinton’s character that will prevent her from using that word. It’s clear that it was a WRONG vote, even in her own mind. But perhaps to her an apology is equivalent to admitting guilty, knowledgeable participation, rather than simply error.
Edwards used a similar rationale to discourage Kerry from rebuking their votes for the IAUF in the 2004 campaign, telling Kerry to “oppose the strategy but not the invasion”. Kerry did this to oppose being called a “flip-flopper”. It didn’t help much.
Both Clinton and Edwards are lawyers and this may influence the way they view “apologies” and “regret” statements. In civil liability suits such statements are often used as evidence of guilt. Maybe that’s at play here? Edwards may have realized that he’s not in a courtroom.
Pete, the mods are so far beyond being offended by legitimate criticism of any candidate.
The use of the term “Hillary Girl” and any other terms the mods deem as racist or sexist will result in your comments being removed from the threads. Until the mods are convinced you understand that simple fact, your comments will likely be delayed before they appear in the threads.
Sure I get it.
Marion, men and women have terms that refer to men as boys–that’s for sure and they are more prevelant in the South where you are.
I have seen Clinton refer to herself as a girl more than once. I could probably find a video of her doing so.
Referring to Obama as a boy in the wrong context would be racial. Calling a black man a boy, which had its epicenter in the racial South where slavery took place until Lincoln stopped them with Grant’s troops is racial.
If I remember my Civil War history, there is a legend Sherman’s girlfriend in Savannah or close to it, begged him not to burn down Savannah. Sherman presented Savannah to Lincoln as a “Christmas gift.” Sherman marched to the sea after burning down Atlanta.
He did say “I’m going to make Georgia howl” and he did just that–because of plenty of racial epithets.
Referring to men as boys as in “Boys love their toys” is not racial.
Referring to a known black man as a boy is racial, and it’s part of what got so much of Georgia burned in the Civil war.
Many African Americans refer to themselves and each other, while speaking amongst themselves, as “The N Word.” Does that make it okay for me to use that word when referring to Sen. Obama? Is it okay for me to call an adult man a “boy?” It’s not the way I was brought up, but maybe I’m older than you and was brought up with different standards of politeness and civility.
I have launched nothing but legitimate criticism when I’ve launched it. Delaying comments by as much as 10-30 minutes is a great way to discourage comments, or confuse the person commenting as to why comments don’t show up. Refreshing the browser is reflex for anyone who knows anything about browsers, but it doesn’t help you when the comments haven’t been posted.
When I respond, my comments are often butressed with appropriate links.
This site has been plastered with references to Obama praising Raegan’s ideas, when all he did was praising having some new ones.
The posterboy (not offensive) and walking parody for change has been Mitt Romney who firepups often refer to as the Mittser. That would denote that Hillster is not offensive. Mitt Romney stole the “change theme” from Obama as did Clinton and they’ve been stealing Obama’s words ever since.
Again, you said “several terms” I used were offensive and I sure can’t find any term you thought was offensive other than the one I used to denote the gender (as far as I know that is correct) for Hillary Clinton.
No one will win a solid majority without independents and Republicans. That’s the reality. I’m not talking about a 51/49 split. We need a mandate.
That’s in the general election, and there’s no proof that Obama has at all been successful in actually bringing Independents and Repubs over for more than just one caucus or one primary vote. He had no real competition for his Senate race so didn’t prove it then either.
Meanwhile, he’s alienating more and more of those he most definitely must have on his side should he be the nominee.
And a mandate for Obama does not ensure any kind of progressive change or benefits for the country–in fact, based on his statements, it would ensure more of the same accomodation and caving in to the GOP at every occasion that we’ve seen for the past 7 years. Pelosi and Reid are going nowhere, and Emanuel and Schumer are still picking the most conservative Dems they can find.
Also, even if we had 70 Dems in the Senate, the GOP would still act the way they do now–obstructing everything — and the leadership there would cave in every time too. There’s no mandate available that will make them play fair or cooperate–none.
Pete,
As has been mentioned, do a HARD refresh of your browser. You have many comments on this thread including a large number where you keep repeating the same things over and over.
Dude!
Got yer hands full today, don’t ya?
Makes me appreciate my pissant little blog and my nonexistent Mod duties when I see shit like this!
Yeah…your mods missed some guy who left a rather threatening comment for you over there earlier today.
Well, I gotta admit, My Cheerio’s tasted a little funny…….
RBG, you’re some kind of a saint, you know. I don’t tolerate fools gladly, much, and would not be able to maintain the measured, reasonable tone you do!
It means it’s not okay for you, or them to use those words, and it’s damaging when they do it as well.
It’s not the way I was brought up since I was old enough to talk, for the record. But you raise an important point I want to address.
I understand politness and civility. Civility is what is extinct between the parties in the context of the polarity between the parties in the US. I believe (could be a prejudice) that there is more civility on so-called liberal blogs than on conservative or Right leaning blogs. Try having a civil discussion on a right wing blog. You’ll be called 4 letter names in a heart-beat.
I want to comment on African Americans using the “N” word to “themselves and each other.” It offends me, and it offends an awful lot of people who are African American I know(I’m not).
Further, when there was a commotion made about Imus and he was taken off the air, noted a couple things.
1) I would have loved to see the Ipods of the basketball players on the Rutgers’ Women’s Basketball team. Because I’m willing to bet that they had many many Hip Hop tunes with very offensive lyrics that wer very demeaning towards women.
2) I believe that it is just as bad for African Americans to use terms that you deem offensive towards them, that you wouldn’t use, among themselves towards them selves and it is not advancing their causes and the caues that should be all of our causes.
3) When the Imus situation came up, I found the most disigenuous players in the whole game were the large corporations who most people never dreamed owned record companies that were making records that spewed out these offensive terms every other word. Time Warner is a company that profits heavily from racial epithets on their many subsidiary Hip Hop record labels.
These companys talk out of both sides of their mouths and are the quintessence of hypocrisy.
Do you really still not understand the difference between calling Mitt Romney “Mittster” (or even, let’s say, “Mitt the Shit”) and calling Hillary Clinton “Hillary Girl”?
I began “hard refreshing” the browser last week, which is a real pain in the ass when you have other browser windows open you haven’t finished with,when I realized many comments with not even a scintilla of anything offensive and no nicknames (and I remind everyone that nicknames for candidates abound here. If you make a comment that someone disagrees with on most conservative blogs–a real waste of time–you’ll get called offensive nicknames fast. That doesn’t happen here.
When your comments are delayed for 30 minutes or blocked, it’s impossible to know what is going up and what isn’t. That’s possibly the reason for repeat comments.
And do you really not understand the difference between Rutgers basketball players having songs on their iPods with lyrics using the word “ho”, and Imus calling them “hos”? Words can have different connotations depending on who says them. This is particularly the case when a word that has been hsitorically used to demean an oppressed class of individual is also used by members of that class.
Pete, There’s a game on, why don’t ya take a break?
This will still be here when ya get back.
remember;
“The First Rule of Holes…
… If You Are in One, Stop Digging.”
I’ve tried to respond to you for an hour and RBG has blocked the responses.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with the term I used, and again although RBG implied I had made comments with several offensive terms, he can’t supply any of them, and he won’t because he can’t. I could have just as easily called Mitt “Mitt Boy” and nothing would have been said.
Many, many people are so anxious for a woman to break through the glass ceiling into the Oval Office that they are construing comments as mysogynic that are simply critical of Hillary, Grown Woman, Old Enough to Know Better as to her Senate Votes.
No matter how hard you or anyone tries, you can’t paint me mysogynic. It won’t fly. For the umpteenth time, I can’t understand why we haven’t had several women presidents since sufferage.
I have advocated, and no one else has commented many times on many threads that we alternate Presidents–one man/one woman, that all federal and state court appointments be equal by gender number, and that all people in both houses of Congress be equal by gender.
Again when I last checked the genetic, pre-natal, and OBGYN literature, we have an equal number of female and male births.
I give up. Horse…water…drink.
I think alot of criticism as to Senator Clinton about the inevitability question was due to the fact that she was running as if she was in the general election. I just saw it as one way to run a campaign. Each has their own strategies. It is smarter to run as a centrist if you can get away with it during the primary. Then you have to do less tacking to the right during the general. Unfortunately Senator Obama was less than thoughtful on how he chose his wording of the Reagan thing wrt the primary voters. So now they have both been spanked. I’m convinced neither is the winner on the “progressive scale”. Both would be better than what we have. I’m backing Clinton because I think she understands how to use the power of the Presidency better (no OJT) and we really will need someone in the White House who is strong and most of all competent when the shit hits the fan with the economy.
It may be a question of invincible ignorance.
Damn, I never realized Catholic ethics was so complicated. I like the Jewish kind better: don’t do wrong.
Well, then you wouldn’t have a chance to have all that good Catholic guilt!
Marion–
I appreciate your attempts to hurl insults semi-obliquely using terms like “fool” and “invincible ignorance.” ‘You go Marion’, if it makes you feel good.
“Bless you” is a common expression in the South, I believe.
;)
Rezko was already in deep doo-doo by the time Obama did the land deal.
Actually, it’s “Bless his heart.” As in “Did you see Betty’s new baby? Ain’t that the ugliest child you ever did see? Aw, bless his heart…”
LOL–Here we go again!–make my day–singin’ the Rezco song in place of issues.
Rezco–Rezco–Rezco–and Obama’s poker games too–that’s a new powerful cause celibre. *g*
When you can’t beat him go for the epithets. Rezco, Reagan, and Leiberman. That’s going to help a lot during South Carolina and Super Tuesday.
Chicago Tribune 4/24/07 No Rexco Menotring and No Rezco Loans to Obama
Thank you. I wasn’t quite sure about that.
I take it you’re not voting for Rezco in 2008 correct?
The prize for self-admiration goes to Clinton. She sets a new record for the use of the pronoun “I”. It’s all about Hillary.
Ah know when ah kin’t think of nothin’ to say ah says Rezco. Gee the Hillary surrogtes haven’t seen much help for them in Rezco–maybe they need to contact you.
Chicago Trib: Ain’t No Help in Rezco for Obama Detractors–Move On!
From what I have read, it is true. The Clinton’s people moved to bring that suit after the Culinary Union went for Obama!
I don’t know what the truth is, but the Clinton campaign claims that the suit–which, as I understand it, was brought by some other union–was not instigated by them.
Oh, gracious me. The Democrats are far too civil to suggest that the Republicans and their failed philosophy are anything but upstanding and worthy opponents. After all, Mr. Obama is bound and determined to sit down with those that would dismantle any progressive legislation that created the middle class to get their input on how just that might be done. You see, he’s a uniter not a divider.
A uniter, not a divider… now where have I heard that before? ;-)
EEEEEWWW — Please DON’T make me think of that! 365 days left…
I think its comical to see how far the extrapolation is from Obama’s simply saying Reagan had ideas to the fantasy LOL that Obama construes Rethugs for anything more than they are. He’s streetwise enough to know what they are and what Hillary Grown Woman is. He went from the streets to Harvard Law and back to the streets to improve them.
It’s been a long time since issues like lack of detail on Iraq and lack of detail on health care and lack of detail to get out of the recession we’re now in the middle of have been discussed. Instead there is diversion into Regan, Rezco, and Leiberman.
Hillary? She’s stolen the concept of getting people to work together and everything else from Obama. The word change didn’t get into Hillary Adult Woman’s self examination and listening to her innervoices until she stole the change concept from Obama.
Sorry Marion ;-)
If it helps, we’re all counting them down with you!
Should I have added “Bless his heart”?
Well, that would assume that he has a heart in the first place… I’m more than a little skeptical, given that “compassionate conservative” thing…
Very true, unfortunately for the country. I was actually thinking in the ugly baby sense. ;-)
I’ll defer to you, I only lived briefly in the south, just long enough to justify an occasional “y’all”, at least to myself
Even in the “ugly baby” sense I would be hard-pressed to call down any kind of a blessing on the Current Occupant! But maybe I’m just being mean…
Longest Thread Ever. Let’s see if we can push it past 400.
At this point it looks like the choice wiil be HRC or Obama. Say what you like about Obama. His record isn’t perfect; nobody’s is, but comparing him unfavourably to HRC is laughable, IMO. When is she going to apologise for the AUMF?
No, people are far to concerned about parsing Obama’s comments on Reagan to worry about that.
And I thought I was just being mean ;-) but I know what you mean… he is such a waste of space. Quite the noop.
Well, we’ve cranked this puppy up to 405, and I’ve got to go and address things in the kitchen lest I starve to death. Have a great evening, y’all. (Just thought I’d go all Southern on you…!)
You’re wrong. I haven’t been using the term you object to, or anything else remotely demeaning, and my posts are still being blocked, just because they can, and for no other reason.
Also it’s very easy for to say “several objectionable terms” without backing up that statement and that’s exactly what was done. Several objectionable terms haven’t been and can’t be shown.
Don’t project whatever may be lurking in your subconsious onto me and my candidate.
Exactly or as some of the firepuppies say DING!
Since Hillary is such a poor comparison on the issues, they have been obsessed for two weeks with Reagan, Rezco, and for months with Leiberman. It’s a weak code for “We can’t find any issues to discuss on which to criticize Obama”
Someone should wake them up and let them know:
Reagan, Rezco, and Leiberman aren’t running for anything in 2008.
Have a great evening… enjoy what is left of the weekend since Monday always comes too soon!
Hillary is a girl
Generally by the time we’re sixty, we prefer to be referred to as women.
Political escapism. The world is too scary. It’s like a drug addiction. Well, now we’re facing something nasty and those same people crave Obama’s gentle words of hope. Lord save us!
While true, it’s really a shame. We are the bleeding edge of the Western Civilization which has been developing for a very long time. To ignore that past is to ignore who we are and what we have been and how that can inform us of where we should go next. It’s a longish story, but an important one. Republicans have been bashing it so long I guess some people have forgotten it and our part in it.
Serious? Wow, that’s stupid. I sure hope she just meant in personal terms and not in terms of their administrations.
Geez, the list of reasons to dislike Obama and Clinton just keeps growing. When will ’some people’ get it? It’s like the list of impeachable offenses: when will Nancy ‘get it’?
If he wanted to attract “Reagan Democrats”, then he should have pointed to policies and approach which might have attracted them. Instead he appealed to their feelings toward Reagan himself. That kind of tactic isn’t very appealing and reminds me of Republican tactics. Of course, the worst thing he could do would be to sell his soul entirely and offer policies which appeal to the Right. That would be entirely unacceptable.
I could say what Obama did it would do no harm. Obama is running for president and has a different responsibility. Is he naive? I think he’s green, naive and unappealing in some other ways too.
I don’t like the cut of his jib.
Would you want a President Truman getting up in a press conference, or in an interview, and denying that Stalin had managed to build a powerful economy and military after centuries of poverty in Russia or would you want him to acknowledge it?
I’d prefer that he not praise our enemy and I would prefer that Obama not mention Reagan in any light, but that which he deserves for his policies.
and
wigwam@41
and
hackworth@14
.
Hmmm…..I wonder…I wonder….what the Clintons might ay about ideas and Reagan….hmmmm….if only there were a way to find out…
Whoa–my DVR just transition from Brett Favre’s interception and what have we here. MTP and Brokaw is talking about his interview with Senator Clinton and her utterances on Raegan…hmmm…let’s lookee lookee:
From MTP Sunday morning–Brokaw quoting Clinton from his book interview of her:
The Hill & Bill Show Gets Exposed On Meet The Press
Your beef is with Harry Reid–have you written or phoned his office?
Reid scheduled the vote for this week or early next. They will be campaigning hot and heavy in SC and Fla. for the primary for the Presidency, and for Super Tuesday. That’s why they ain’t goin’ back–and not one person would at that point, even Dodd.
The vote on S.2248 has pretty much been packaged for Immunity to pass. Again Harry Reid.
There needs to be a 3/5 majority for two central moves on this bill in the Senate (House has passed No Immunity and that will go to Conference Committee with the Senate’s bill but)
1) It takes 3/5 or 60 votes to stop a fillibuster. Compliant Bush Dems and Bushy Dittohead Republicans supply this easily.
2) It takes 3/5 or 60 votes to amend the bill Reid brought to the floor (the S.S.I.C. bill from Jello the Jay). Compliant Bush Dems and Bushy Dittohead Republicans won’t supply this.
It is sad when some of the Democratic base, and I’m very much part of the liberal base of Democrats is so twitchy and finicky that someone can’t praise that another party’s President had a method of change that worked for him, while clearly criticizing the actual ideas.
And it’s amusing to me that those people who are so reactive, have ignored that the only other person in contention to win the Democratic nomination now, Clinton said the exact same thing as Obama did, and it was captured on MTP Sunday morning:
R-I-G-H-T T-H-E F-A-R-K ON!!!!!