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	<title>Comments on: Nevada Caucus Open Thread</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/</link>
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		<title>By: ACitizen</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1214032</link>
		<dc:creator>ACitizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 07:10:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1214032</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;After four years of McCain/HuckaBee! the country will finally be ready for John Edwards and we will be also. With the Trojan Horse Obama stuck in the Senate where he can, maybe get some work done, we in the ’sphere can continue electing ‘More and Actual Democrats’.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;Edwards/Edwards /12!&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And I am very serious about this.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After four years of McCain/HuckaBee! the country will finally be ready for John Edwards and we will be also. With the Trojan Horse Obama stuck in the Senate where he can, maybe get some work done, we in the ’sphere can continue electing ‘More and Actual Democrats’.</p>
<p><strong>Edwards/Edwards /12!</strong></p>
<p>And I am very serious about this.</p>
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		<title>By: MeDaVinci</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213224</link>
		<dc:creator>MeDaVinci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:14:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213224</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;wavepeac at 228 …&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I didn’t defend Nafta…and by the way neither does Hillary.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Scusi??? Hillary Clinton IS Mr/Mrs/Ms NAFTA. Ha ha ha. Fresh off anti-GATT protests in Seattle in 1989, I hounded the new Two-for-One Clinton White House in 1992 about why NAFTA was a really really proven (via GATT) no good, bad idea for American workers. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I got back blah-blah-blah 7th Grade treatises on White House stationery about how I just didn’t understand the wonders of the corporate capitalist system. (and, hint, was I maybe a Commie?)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Well, NAFTA and CAFTA and Peru Trade Agreement (favored by BOTH Hillary and her sidekick Barack Obama) have worked out real well for American workers, hasn’t it? Worked out real well for Chinese job slaves and maquiladora Mexicans whose babies are born without brains. (It’s called anacephalic and it comes from General Motors plants shuttered in Michigan and moved to the US-Mexican Border.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Thank you, Hillary Clinton. Mrs. NAFTA. Now, who doesn’t have their facts straight?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wavepeac at 228 …</p>
<blockquote><p>I didn’t defend Nafta…and by the way neither does Hillary.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Scusi??? Hillary Clinton IS Mr/Mrs/Ms NAFTA. Ha ha ha. Fresh off anti-GATT protests in Seattle in 1989, I hounded the new Two-for-One Clinton White House in 1992 about why NAFTA was a really really proven (via GATT) no good, bad idea for American workers. </p>
<p>I got back blah-blah-blah 7th Grade treatises on White House stationery about how I just didn’t understand the wonders of the corporate capitalist system. (and, hint, was I maybe a Commie?)</p>
<p>Well, NAFTA and CAFTA and Peru Trade Agreement (favored by BOTH Hillary and her sidekick Barack Obama) have worked out real well for American workers, hasn’t it? Worked out real well for Chinese job slaves and maquiladora Mexicans whose babies are born without brains. (It’s called anacephalic and it comes from General Motors plants shuttered in Michigan and moved to the US-Mexican Border.)</p>
<p>Thank you, Hillary Clinton. Mrs. NAFTA. Now, who doesn’t have their facts straight?</p>
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		<title>By: wavpeac</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213199</link>
		<dc:creator>wavpeac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2008 00:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213199</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I am for Edwards…and I can’t disagree with anything in the above post, but I really don’t have much patience for the Hillary haters who do not use the facts.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I didn’t defend Nafta…and by the way neither does Hillary. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But the world was a lot better for poor folks.  I am telling you the wages were going up because jobs were so plentiful. Republicans couldn’t find people to work the job available and were having to add benefits and higher wages. The republicans don’t ever want that at happen again. They were at the mercy of the labor market. Why do you think they’ve worked so hard to keep the hispanic surge going??? So they never have to be nice to workers again. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;During the Clinton years at least where I live, we had 0 unemployment, a balanced budget, and more folks spending money IN the economy being able to buy stocks, more folks moving from middle class to upper middle class. That’s the truth. I am not for Clinton for other reasons. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But SHEESH!! before you trash on someone get your facts straight. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Go EDWARDS!!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am for Edwards…and I can’t disagree with anything in the above post, but I really don’t have much patience for the Hillary haters who do not use the facts.</p>
<p>I didn’t defend Nafta…and by the way neither does Hillary. </p>
<p>But the world was a lot better for poor folks.  I am telling you the wages were going up because jobs were so plentiful. Republicans couldn’t find people to work the job available and were having to add benefits and higher wages. The republicans don’t ever want that at happen again. They were at the mercy of the labor market. Why do you think they’ve worked so hard to keep the hispanic surge going??? So they never have to be nice to workers again. </p>
<p>During the Clinton years at least where I live, we had 0 unemployment, a balanced budget, and more folks spending money IN the economy being able to buy stocks, more folks moving from middle class to upper middle class. That’s the truth. I am not for Clinton for other reasons. </p>
<p>But SHEESH!! before you trash on someone get your facts straight. </p>
<p>Go EDWARDS!!</p>
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		<title>By: MeDaVinci</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213153</link>
		<dc:creator>MeDaVinci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:44:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213153</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As Hunter Thompson said: When the going turns wierd, the wierd turn PRO.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Anyone besides me get disgusted by posters who say “Boo hoo, I’m for Edwards but, gosh, maybe the always-truthful media is right: John should try to be someone’s VP or angle for Attorney General.” ?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;How about people who decry playing the gender card or the race card … but can not accept that both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are NOT agents of genuine change; both sport $100 Million campaign war chests from corporate lobbyists who don’t care which card gets played in the Democratic nominee — woman or black — because both are bought out by the for-profit health and war machines. And both will lose against virtually any likely GOP nominee. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So, not playing the gender or race card means pretending to not notice how retro, non-progressive and undemocratic — say nothing of unelectable — both are? I don’t see that positioning on HRC or BO as liberal, non-divisive or a step in the right direction. I see it as painfully naive and non-reality based politics.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And if I point out this LaLa Land Magical Political Thinking, then I get called anti-female (i.e., anti-me :-O), crypto-racist (good one! hahaha I still think we all got lots of ’splaining to do, Lucy, regarding Native Americans … the Square One targets of American genocide and racism) OR I hate this one the most: I get told how much better Democrats are than Republicans. Duh-oh. Thanks for the tip on that one, oh child of the cave. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;THUS: In line with Hunter Thompson (above) and William Burroughs, Jr. — who said a paranoid is the person with all the facts at his/her disposal — I tend to think there is some other kharmic chess game sh*t going on here. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When people willfully ignore Barack Obama’s GOP Vote Fraud style of qualifying for elections in the Illinois Senate and US Senate (check out the Chicago Trib investigation and BlackAgendaReport.com) … &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When people persistently choose to ignore Hillary Clinton’s atavistic DLC credentials, with all the lobbying PAC money and Corporatist Defender Woman baggage …&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;And when we hear people like John Kerry, Gary Hart, Senator Progressive Patriots Fund Russ Feingold, allegedly-sane Pat Leahy of Guerrilla Vermont, and who-cares ersatz Democrat pundit O’Donnell GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to diss John Edwards …&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;When we hear Edwards box Obama’s green ears twice in one day — Jan 18, 2008 on drooling over that ole class warfarist/union busting/Alzheimer’s ridden Reagan; and whacking BO upside the head for sitting 5 ft from Edwards during the Nevada debates and promising to stop the divisive politics, then lyingly/hypocritically condoning dirty and malicious UNITE spots against Hillary Clinton … whom Edwards defended Bwhaaaaaaa …&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I do believe we’re seeing a potential All-Time Historic Cold Cock of the American Crypto-Fascists underway. I don’t think Hillary Clinton is what we need in a president; DITTO Obama. But neither do I think either one of them is an idiot. (Why else would Obama act like a buffoon sometimes during the Nevada debate: ooops I can’t keep up with my paperwork so make me Prez and I’ll lose that Presidential Briefing Memo on terror attacks? Or Let’s see how many tender Dems vote for me if I start rimming Ronnie Alzheimer’s Reagan’s ass. Aha! I did it. My supporters don’t even know who RayGuns was!) Why else would Hillary Clinton defend — defiantly and stamping her foot! — defend the dozens of million of buckaroos she swallows from Big Health Insurance, Big Pharma, Big Defense Contractors, et. al? Irony? Hypocrisy? Or warm-up for Comedy Club?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I think there is a giant cold cock going on here. Someday I’d like to get Russ Feingold drunk and beat the game outta him. But, I, for one, am not going to go mewling and puking off into the sunset right now … looking for job openings for “failed John Edwards.” Don’t buy that meme, thanks.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;[RBG Note; metaphorically speaking, no doubt?]&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Hunter Thompson said: When the going turns wierd, the wierd turn PRO.</p>
<p>Anyone besides me get disgusted by posters who say “Boo hoo, I’m for Edwards but, gosh, maybe the always-truthful media is right: John should try to be someone’s VP or angle for Attorney General.” ?</p>
<p>How about people who decry playing the gender card or the race card … but can not accept that both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are NOT agents of genuine change; both sport $100 Million campaign war chests from corporate lobbyists who don’t care which card gets played in the Democratic nominee — woman or black — because both are bought out by the for-profit health and war machines. And both will lose against virtually any likely GOP nominee. </p>
<p>So, not playing the gender or race card means pretending to not notice how retro, non-progressive and undemocratic — say nothing of unelectable — both are? I don’t see that positioning on HRC or BO as liberal, non-divisive or a step in the right direction. I see it as painfully naive and non-reality based politics.</p>
<p>And if I point out this LaLa Land Magical Political Thinking, then I get called anti-female (i.e., anti-me :-O), crypto-racist (good one! hahaha I still think we all got lots of ’splaining to do, Lucy, regarding Native Americans … the Square One targets of American genocide and racism) OR I hate this one the most: I get told how much better Democrats are than Republicans. Duh-oh. Thanks for the tip on that one, oh child of the cave. </p>
<p>THUS: In line with Hunter Thompson (above) and William Burroughs, Jr. — who said a paranoid is the person with all the facts at his/her disposal — I tend to think there is some other kharmic chess game sh*t going on here. </p>
<p>When people willfully ignore Barack Obama’s GOP Vote Fraud style of qualifying for elections in the Illinois Senate and US Senate (check out the Chicago Trib investigation and BlackAgendaReport.com) … </p>
<p>When people persistently choose to ignore Hillary Clinton’s atavistic DLC credentials, with all the lobbying PAC money and Corporatist Defender Woman baggage …</p>
<p>And when we hear people like John Kerry, Gary Hart, Senator Progressive Patriots Fund Russ Feingold, allegedly-sane Pat Leahy of Guerrilla Vermont, and who-cares ersatz Democrat pundit O’Donnell GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to diss John Edwards …</p>
<p>When we hear Edwards box Obama’s green ears twice in one day — Jan 18, 2008 on drooling over that ole class warfarist/union busting/Alzheimer’s ridden Reagan; and whacking BO upside the head for sitting 5 ft from Edwards during the Nevada debates and promising to stop the divisive politics, then lyingly/hypocritically condoning dirty and malicious UNITE spots against Hillary Clinton … whom Edwards defended Bwhaaaaaaa …</p>
<p>I do believe we’re seeing a potential All-Time Historic Cold Cock of the American Crypto-Fascists underway. I don’t think Hillary Clinton is what we need in a president; DITTO Obama. But neither do I think either one of them is an idiot. (Why else would Obama act like a buffoon sometimes during the Nevada debate: ooops I can’t keep up with my paperwork so make me Prez and I’ll lose that Presidential Briefing Memo on terror attacks? Or Let’s see how many tender Dems vote for me if I start rimming Ronnie Alzheimer’s Reagan’s ass. Aha! I did it. My supporters don’t even know who RayGuns was!) Why else would Hillary Clinton defend — defiantly and stamping her foot! — defend the dozens of million of buckaroos she swallows from Big Health Insurance, Big Pharma, Big Defense Contractors, et. al? Irony? Hypocrisy? Or warm-up for Comedy Club?</p>
<p>I think there is a giant cold cock going on here. Someday I’d like to get Russ Feingold drunk and beat the game outta him. But, I, for one, am not going to go mewling and puking off into the sunset right now … looking for job openings for “failed John Edwards.” Don’t buy that meme, thanks.</p>
<p><em>[RBG Note; metaphorically speaking, no doubt?]</em></p>
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		<title>By: spamtar</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213150</link>
		<dc:creator>spamtar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213150</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;No More Media Blackout and Response to Dr. Ron Paul’s Surge&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;1)	The media will have to take a different tactic against Ron Paul besides their failed attempts to black him out, not invite him to the debates, discount him as a long shot or nut job, and continues to talk about their favorite Rudy’s eventual Florida comeback.&lt;br /&gt;
And&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;2)	Expect Dr. Paul’s Martin Luther King Day “I have a Dream” one day internet fundraiser to beat his $6 million anniversary of the Boston Tea Party December one day record breaking fundraiser.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No More Media Blackout and Response to Dr. Ron Paul’s Surge</p>
<p>1)	The media will have to take a different tactic against Ron Paul besides their failed attempts to black him out, not invite him to the debates, discount him as a long shot or nut job, and continues to talk about their favorite Rudy’s eventual Florida comeback.<br />
And</p>
<p>2)	Expect Dr. Paul’s Martin Luther King Day “I have a Dream” one day internet fundraiser to beat his $6 million anniversary of the Boston Tea Party December one day record breaking fundraiser.</p>
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		<title>By: Crosstimbers</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213140</link>
		<dc:creator>Crosstimbers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213140</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, I was shocked and disappointed by the BJ, but didn’t see the other shenanigans.  My recollection was that he was pretty well under siege for Richard Mellon Scaife and others to a degree I’d never seen before. I consdired him preferable to both the elder Bush and Bob Dole.  Ms. Clinton, IMO, is definitely preferable to Romney, McCain, Giuliani, Paul, or anywone else who has the nerves to come out in public and say they are Republicans after the crap we’ve been through the last seven years.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But, it’s obvious a lot of other FDL’s will chose to stay home, vote Republican, or join in with some other party.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I was shocked and disappointed by the BJ, but didn’t see the other shenanigans.  My recollection was that he was pretty well under siege for Richard Mellon Scaife and others to a degree I’d never seen before. I consdired him preferable to both the elder Bush and Bob Dole.  Ms. Clinton, IMO, is definitely preferable to Romney, McCain, Giuliani, Paul, or anywone else who has the nerves to come out in public and say they are Republicans after the crap we’ve been through the last seven years.  </p>
<p>But, it’s obvious a lot of other FDL’s will chose to stay home, vote Republican, or join in with some other party.</p>
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		<title>By: bonkers</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213122</link>
		<dc:creator>bonkers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:31:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213122</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;If so, this still doesn’t mean that people wanted an end to the Clinton shenanigans (like me!).&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;make that “If so, this still allows for the possibility that people were tired of the Clinton shenanigans.”&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If so, this still doesn’t mean that people wanted an end to the Clinton shenanigans (like me!).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>make that “If so, this still allows for the possibility that people were tired of the Clinton shenanigans.”</p>
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		<title>By: bonkers</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213111</link>
		<dc:creator>bonkers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213111</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I guess NAFTA, Media and other Industry Conglomeration, Union-busting, etc. are all good then!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;More and Better Centrists!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess NAFTA, Media and other Industry Conglomeration, Union-busting, etc. are all good then!</p>
<p>More and Better Centrists!</p>
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		<title>By: bonkers</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213106</link>
		<dc:creator>bonkers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:27:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213106</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, I don’t have links or polls handy to support my claim, but it’s an opinion I started having during the hearings (not to mention his perjury and meaning of “is” nonsense…yeesh!).  As we’re seeing right now as well, national head-to-head races can be radically off from more individualized polls done within Parties, or in more regional areas.  I was quite active at that time all around the country, and remember many people agreeing with me.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I don’t see how Gore would’ve benefitted by embracing Clinton more.  Is the theory that more Nader voters would’ve backed him?  That doesn’t make sense since Nader voters were pissed at Clinton’s economics.  Would more “centrists” have backed Gore?  Doesn’t follow for me either, since Gore was in a mad dash to the mythical “center” and had picked Benedict Lieberman for VP.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I just simply don’t remember any sort of groundswell of Clinton support after the Monica affair.  I wonder if those polls mentioned were a result of the economy doing well, and things at least appearing Okay internationally.  If so, this still doesn’t mean that people wanted an end to the Clinton shenanigans (like me!).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Keep in mind I was already disgusted by Clinton based on his policies, and then this happened.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I don’t have links or polls handy to support my claim, but it’s an opinion I started having during the hearings (not to mention his perjury and meaning of “is” nonsense…yeesh!).  As we’re seeing right now as well, national head-to-head races can be radically off from more individualized polls done within Parties, or in more regional areas.  I was quite active at that time all around the country, and remember many people agreeing with me.</p>
<p>I don’t see how Gore would’ve benefitted by embracing Clinton more.  Is the theory that more Nader voters would’ve backed him?  That doesn’t make sense since Nader voters were pissed at Clinton’s economics.  Would more “centrists” have backed Gore?  Doesn’t follow for me either, since Gore was in a mad dash to the mythical “center” and had picked Benedict Lieberman for VP.</p>
<p>I just simply don’t remember any sort of groundswell of Clinton support after the Monica affair.  I wonder if those polls mentioned were a result of the economy doing well, and things at least appearing Okay internationally.  If so, this still doesn’t mean that people wanted an end to the Clinton shenanigans (like me!).</p>
<p>Keep in mind I was already disgusted by Clinton based on his policies, and then this happened.</p>
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		<title>By: Crosstimbers</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213105</link>
		<dc:creator>Crosstimbers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Jan 2008 23:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/19/nevada-caucus-open-thread/#comment-1213105</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I remember that it was the biggest jobhunters labor market I had ever seen.  I had three kids, out of college.  They could move from job to job if they wanted, without fear of burning bridges.  I had never seen it that way before and haen’t since.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember that it was the biggest jobhunters labor market I had ever seen.  I had three kids, out of college.  They could move from job to job if they wanted, without fear of burning bridges.  I had never seen it that way before and haen’t since.</p>
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