Jonah Goldberg has been complaining since before the release of his book, Liberal Fascism: How To Smear Liberals With Classic Right-Wing Projection, that there just weren’t any liberals who took it seriously. And it’s been a steady patter ever after, joyfully dismissing liberal critics either for being too scatological, or for not having read the book, or for just not being "serious."
And then there’s me.
I did read the book, and wrote a review for The American Prospect that was, frankly, quite scathing, but otherwise perfectly serious in its examination of Goldberg’s arguments and evidence. Jonah responded, kind of: as I promptly pointed out, while Goldberg expends a great deal of time excoriating and dismissing various details within the review, he utterly neglected to address its central point. Which seemed to me a reasonable expectation.
Since then, Goldberg simply hasn’t responded himself, except for a brief dismissal. But hey, the fans keep sending in those cards and letters! And those nasty liberals still won’t talk about his book seriously! Meanwhile, I published a detailed counter to his response last Sunday — but so far, Goldberg has neglected to acknowledge its existence.
I’ve also e-mailed and asked if he could at least let me know if he’d be responding, and have heard nothing back.
So it now appears that Goldberg is more than happy to respond to right-wingers like his NRO cohort Michael Ledeen because, well, they’re "serious" — which is to say, they don’t attack his central thesis. The left? Oh, they’re just not "serious". OK, even when they are "serious" — that is, they read the book, published their review in a national venue, and the critical issues raised are by any standard serious points, they’re not really serious because they’re not on subjects that Jonah wants to talk about (i.e., subjects that undermine the entirety of his enterprise).
Now, I know being raised in a place like Idaho makes me something of a crude bumpkin, manners-wise, but where I came from, there was just one word for this kind of nonsense: chickenshit.
We "liberal fascists" want to know: Is Goldberg sincere about having a serious dialogue about the real problems with his thesis? Or is he just playing a deeply cynical game? I think the answer is becoming clearer daily.
Perhaps it would help if Jonah explained what he means by "serious." I know that I’m being deadly serious, because Goldberg’s book, in my view, wreaks havoc with the public’s understanding of the very real phenomenon of fascism — a subject I’ve been involved in trying to educate the public about for years.
So let me be clear about where I’m coming from regarding Goldberg’s book. My chief credential for reviewing it is that I understand fascism from the ground up: I was a reporter and newspaper editor for some years in northern Idaho and western Montana and covered the racist right folks who set up camp in our neck of the woods in the 1970s, particularly the Aryan Nations and Posse Comitatus; that work extended into the 1990s, covering groups like the Montana Freemen. These people were all, by any definition of the word, fascists, and not only did I cover their rallies and their crimes (I used to get phone calls from Robert Matthews, the leader of The Order), I also interviewed many, many of their followers. I also became familiar with the academic study of fascism and its permutations at that time. (Secondarily, I’m not a historian, but I’m more than familiar with the milieu; my last book was a piece of history, written journalistically, that nonetheless underwent rigorous peer review from historians in the process of being published.)
Fascism isn’t just a theory for me, and it’s certainly not ancient history. But it’s clear that for Goldberg, this is largely a semantical exercise, a chance to bend definitions, to play rhetorical tit-for-tat with liberals who bandy the term about too freely (and they do exist). In other words, for the most frivolous reasons, he’s purposefully muddying the public discourse when it comes to the very real problems posed by the existence of very real fascists.
It needs to be pointed out that there are a number of groups — not just well-known organizations like the ADL and the SPLC, but church-based groups like the Center for New Community and community-organizing efforts like Not In Our Town — whose primary mission entails helping the public deal with the very real issues created by the ongoing presence and activities of these groups. The key to their efforts entails educating the public, and having a clear understanding of the nature of the beast is an essential predicate of that.
What Goldberg’s book means to them is that, when they try to identify real fascist organizations (particularly skinheads, neo-Nazis, and the Klan) as operating within their communities, the mainstream conservatives who constitute Goldberg’s audience — only a fraction of whom will have actually read the book (Jonah insists therein, you see, that he’s not claiming that all liberals are fascists, and anyone who thinks otherwise isn’t being serious), while the rest will mostly have absorbed its title — will more than likely just dismiss them: "Nah, it’s you liberals who are the real fascists!"
And let’s also be clear: mainstream conservatives are not fascists. While both are clearly creatures of the right, they are quite distinct, and it’s essential to our understanding of fascism that we make that distinction. Moreover, it’s my belief that right-wing extremists pose at least as great an existential threat to mainstream conservatives as they do to liberals, even though the latter are in fact their natural enemies. Maintaining the line between the far right and the mainstream is an essential project for all of us — especially conservatives.
Now, I’ve raised more than a few eyebrows among some of my colleagues on the left for even taking Goldberg seriously in the first place. Atrios quite adroitly observed that "while I appreciate that the light needs to shine on such stupidity occasionally, I do not understand the endless efforts to actually grapple with his very serious, thoughtful, argument that has never been made in such detail or with such care."
Heh indeedy. For starters, there’s the whole issue of even attempting to engage movement conservatives in serious dialogue, because for all their waving about the snotty rag of "seriousness" they’ve made clear that they’re only interested in dialogue on their own terms, i.e., terms that include pretending that the utter horseshit they’re selling is actually the finest ambrosia. The instances where this has happened have been too numerous to count, including those well within my realm of experience. Several commenters have observed that I was deluding myself if I thought I would actually get a dialogue in good faith with Goldberg, and so far they’ve been proven right.
Then there’s the larger point of the effect of taking a book like this seriously: It’s such a ludicrous premise, it deserves not serious examination but scornful ridicule. Treating it as anything but a joke gives it a patina of seriousness it shouldn’t get, and just gives Goldberg’s meme that much more air.
I appreciate these points, which certainly have some validity. But the problem with dismissing Liberal Fascism out of hand is that the mainstream media certainly haven’t dismissed the book out of hand: Goldberg’s been on a regular rotation of cable-talk shows since the book’s release, and more certainly are on the way. As much as we might wish this noxious meme would choke on its own fumes, it’s clear that isn’t going to happen: the "liberal media" is all too happy to present this fraud as "serious," and there are going to be large swaths of the public lapping it up. (There already are, in fact.) Pretty soon any discussion of actual fascists will be dismissed with a wave of the "ah, you libruls are the real fascists" hand.
Moreover, from where I stand, his grotesque misreadings of history and the realities of the rise of fascism both in Europe and America, his eradication and trivialization of genuine American fascist elements from the pages of that history — those things simply cannot go unanswered. Someone needs to point out that the Pantload has no clothes.
So my initial review at TAP Online raised this point right in the subhed:
In his new book, Goldberg has decided to dream up fascists on the left rather than acknowledge the fact that the real American fascists have been lurking in the right’s closet for lo these many years.
Here’s what the review states in its culminative paragraphs:
What goes missing from Goldberg’s account of fascism is that, while he describes nearly every kind of liberal enterprise or ideology as representing American fascism, he wipes from the pages of history the fact that there have been fascists operating within the nation’s culture for the better part of the past century. Robert O. Paxton, in his book The Anatomy of Fascism, identifies the Ku Klux Klan as the first genuine fascist organization, a suggestion that Goldberg airily dismisses with the dumb explanation that the Klan of the 1920s disliked Mussolini and his adherents because they were Italian (somewhat true for a time but irrelevant in terms of their ideological affinities, which were substantial enough that by the 1930s, historians have noted, there were frequent operative associations between Klan leaders and European fascists). [More here and here on that.]
Beyond the Klan, completely missing from the pages of Goldberg’s book is any mention of the Silver Shirts, the American Nazi Party, the Posse Comitatus, the Aryan Nations, or the National Alliance — all of them openly fascist organizations, many of them involved in some of the nation’s most horrific historical events. (The Oklahoma City bombing, for instance, was the product of a blueprint drawn up by the National Alliance’s William Pierce.) Goldberg sees fit to declare people like Wilson, FDR, LBJ, and Hillary Clinton "American fascists," but he makes no mention of William Dudley Pelley, Gerald L.K. Smith, George Lincoln Rockwell, William Potter Gale, Richard Butler, or David Duke — all of them bona fide fascists: the real thing.
This is a telling omission, because the continuing existence of these groups makes clear what an absurd and nakedly self-serving thing Goldberg’s alternate version of reality is. Why dream up fascists on the left when the reality is that real American fascists have been lurking in the right’s closet for lo these many years? Well, maybe because it’s a handy way of getting everyone to forget that fact.
And that fact, as I point out, makes clear that fascism, in its current, modern-day context, clearly describes entities that reside well on the right of the political spectrum. Regardless of how many strands of progressivism he can dig up from the 1920s (when, as he constantly reminds us without any appreciation for how it affects his own thesis, the context was very different indeed), fascism today lives on, as it has now for all those generations since the ’20s, in entities who are unquestionably right-wing.
So how did Goldberg respond? By composing two pages of sneer (the review, he says, was "shallow, cliché ridden, attack-the-messenger stuff") that, rather predictably, completely elided any discussion of the central point. When I promptly pointed this out, Jonah posted this lame response:
From a reader:
Jonah: Contemporary labels are opportunistic and confuse the political
reality. Here is why this is…Neiwart: Labels aren’t the issue. Fascists are racists, racists are
right-wingers, therefore you and the right have a lot of accounting to
do! Why aren’t you accounting?!I’m tempted to just leave it there since I think so little of Neiwart’s attempt. It seems to boil down to: Fascists are always the bad guys. There are real bad guys today. They are on the right. Therefore they are the real fascists. Talk about anti-intellectual!
Well, as I pointed out immediately, this is just a classic strawman, a grotesque misrepresentation of both Jonah’s argument (his response said nothing about "contemporary labels confusing the political reality") and, even moreso, mine: As I said then, the people I’m talking about — the Klan, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, skinheads, and nativists — are not definably fascist because they’re "bad guys" (whatever the hell that means). We can identify them as fascist for a number of reasons:
– They share a direct lineage with American fascists of the 1920s and ’30s whose activities never ceased in the intervening years, and whose ideologies and activities both in the 1920s and since were clearly on the political right, as they are today.
– These contemporary groups all currently employ the symbolism, ideology, rhetoric and behavior of classical fascists. Many of them openly admire, even worship, Hitler.
– They fully meet the definition of fascism — not merely Jonah’s, which as we’ve explained is wholly inadequate, but the broadly accepted understanding of fascism derived from the academic study of the phenomenon.
Yet, indeed, Jonah indeed seems to have just "left it there." After pointing this out, Jonah responded no further, except to quote e-mail from his fan club, as well as an e-mail from "a very sharp law professor friend" who basically suggested ways to politely blow me off (gee, that sounds familiar).
The closest he came to addressing my critique any further came in another post citing another e-mail:
From a reader:
I know you are incredibly busy, but I’m curious if anyone has written anything challenging your basic premise in the book that you found somewhat credible and worth reading for a different point of view. Or are most of the comments just the written equivalent of mouth foam and drool?
So far, nope. I mean Siegel and Oshinsky aren’t droolers by any stretch. But neither offered a sustained and serious critique. Pretty much all the leftwing blog stuff I’ve seen is too vile to pick through the trash in search of a good argument. Some conservative friends have some thoughtful and constructive critiques (Yuval Levin’s going to write some of them up to get a conversation going). I would like to see such a critique, but the leftwingers don’t seem interested in providing it, invested as they are in the character-assassination gambit.
In the meantime, Goldberg has airily dismissed his other liberal critics on various grounds: Ezra Klein and John Holbo (they didn’t read the book), morte at TPM (also didn’t read it, and his irony in calling it "Definitive" in the headline escaped Goldberg), Gavin McNett at Alternet (who chose to mock the enterprise, therefore he’s not serious), and Matt Yglesias, who he later tackles again with a "serious response" that doesn’t demonstrate any intent to actually engage Yglesias’ point at all:
In short, his review is a piece of theater used to disguise his own cognitive dissonance. Nothing to see here folks, no need to read this book, no need to do any heavy thinking whatsoever. Indeed, thinking is the last thing Matt or his friends on the left want to do when it comes to my book.
Well, here’s what Yglesias actually wrote:
I’m not going to say that means contemporary conservatives are fascists. I agree with Goldberg that that’s a superficial line of argument that completely ignores the sociocultural roots of American conservatism and European fascism. But nobody with allegiances like that can seriously turn around, point at the other ideological camp, at start yelling "fascism" at the slightest whiff of collectivism.
Now, that is a serious point, whether Goldberg wants to acknowledge it or not — but he clearly doesn’t, since doing so would concede Yglesias’ chief point, to wit, "there’s no real coherent argument to be extracted here at all."
Ah, but we do know now what constitutes a "serious" argument in Goldberg’s book: a critique from his NRO colleague Michael Ledeen, which he greets with a "Now this is what I’m talking about" post.
In the meantime, I wrote and published a detailed rejoinder to Goldberg’s two-page sneer. It certainly is serious, again, but also quite damning. To date, Goldberg has neither acknowledged its existence at his blog, nor even hinted at attempting a response.
Well, it’s time for this mendacious cowardly and dishonest chickenshit nonsense to end. Let’s make it simple. Here are three very clear and very serious questions for Goldberg to answer.
– How does he account for the continuing presence — from the 1920s up through the present — of definably fascist groups, not just American entities like the Ku Klux Klan, the Christian Identity movement, the Posse Comitatus, the Aryan Nations, the National Alliance, Hammerskin Nation, and White Aryan Resistance (to name just a few), but also European groups like Vlaams Belang and Jean-Marie Le Pen’s National Front, all of whom are clearly right-wing political entities? Doesn’t this lay waste to his claim that fascism is "a phenomenon of the left"?
– How does he defend his whitewashing of the Ku Klux Klan? Is he seriously trying to argue that the Klan is a "phenomenon of the left"?
– How does he explain the self-evident inadequacy of his definition of fascism? (Goldberg’s definition, as we’ve explained, describes not fascism — particularly not any of the traits that make it distinct — but rather totalitarianism (or authoritarianism, if you will) generally, of which fascism is but a particular species, and a definitively right-wing one at that).
(Oh, and while he’s at it, he might want to address Jeet Heer’s very pointed questions about his linguistic credentials in assessing his source material — though no doubt that too is not a "serious" matter.)
Now, Goldberg can seriously address these three questions and thereby make clear that his demands for a "serious debate" over his book were made in good faith.
Or he can continue to pretend that these points haven’t been raised and that they don’t seriously undermine his thesis. In which case I think we can all pretty clearly conclude, without any further adieu, that Goldberg is a fraud — not just his book, but his pose of intellectual seriousness.
Then, I say, let the mockery proceed apace. It’s all he deserves. And if he tries to whine that no one on the left is engaging him seriously anymore, they’ll know where to point when they tell him: You have no one to blame for that but yourself.



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ZED
ZEconD!
Geez, I take the time to read and someone else beats me to the Digg It!
Dang Dave, you wrote a great post!
So how does the pantload explain away that fact that George Bush’s grandpa Prescott was invested in Nazi Germany even after the war broke out?
Hi, Dave! I love your writing, at Orcinus and here.
There is no way that anyone could read your analyses of Goldberg’s book and say that there are no “liberals who took it seriously”.
I sometimes have the misfortune of running into one of Goldberg’s writings. I find them to suffer from fact deficiency- mostly I suppose- cause he’s too fuckin lazy to research ANYTHING- and would rather just let his gums flap..Useless in my opinion.
I suppose for doughy that government easedropping on everything that is taking place under Bushco is a liberal fascist conspiracy.
All right, I will step into the fray and make a serious observation about this book. It sucks.
Where to begin… really, with this screed even being published, some
new batch of kool-aid must be out there. I know this angle is the real
purpose of the Hoover Institution, but they cloak it with some degree
of scholarship… this thing is like a paper written on an all nighter
to be turned in next day. Weak.
That is why he goes to places like the Heritage Foundation, scholarship is not a requirement.
That is probably the most honest review he will get.
What I’d like to know is why anyone bothers with J. Goldberg in the first place. I never heard of him before I started reading FDL (and Greenwald, etc.). I know he was on Stewart last night. My question is why. He’s obviously an idiot. Why give him strokes by paying ANY attention to him at all? Why is this idiot so important that his every emission must be responded to, even if it’s with derision? I’d really like to know how and why this dork got under everyone’s skin. (Besides the fact that he is an actual son of a bitch.)
Sorry Dakine, I had a slightly unfair advantage.
David, this is yet another phenomenal piece of writing. Thanks for sharing it with us.
I saw Goldberg on one of the right-wing teevee gabfests last week. The emcee asked him why the Republican Party was so electorally fucked right now. Pantload’s answer was, I kid you not, “Conservatives are victims of their own success”. What can you even say?
Because he gets a ton of attention from right-wing loonie bin propaganda outlets and from the right-wing nutjob mainstream media.
EPU’d:
On MSNBC, David Shuster just said, speaking of political reporters, “We’re not supposed to be stenographers for Mitt Romney.”
Give that man a Pulitzer!
“Because he gets a ton of attention from right-wing loonie bin propaganda outlets and from the right-wing nutjob mainstream media.”
Ok, but does this mean that EVERY nutcase in the loonie bin deserves a response? Glenn Beck? Bill O? Let them play to their own fools.
Good discussion David. I think you have demonstrated precisely where Goldberg has fallen short of making even a reasonable case. Fascism has a decidedly “racial” or “nationalist” identity of persecution, it uses violence to assert power against its opposition (and thus demands massive expenditures on war or “self-defense”), and it carries a legacy through time with other Fascist ideologies.
You mention those of the American Nazi Party with Mussolini, but there was also a massive historical link to Franco…via people like Father Coughlin. Father Coughlin vocally supported Francoism and American Fascist organizations up until the dawn of World War II. Coughlin is actually the spiritual predecessor of many right-wing talk-radio figures, IMO. He was both a populist but also an avowed nativist. But he had no issue with supporting Fascism by those of other races “over there”. He seems to have been the inspiration of the John Birch Society….and through that organization, many folks like Joe Pyne, ultimately folks like Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, and Ann Coulter.
Powerful piece, David.
Ledeen is a real piece of work. Enough to send shivers down anyone’s spine.
That Goldbrick hangs out with creatures like Ledeen essentially describes his whole ‘trick’; the Straussian waltzers are beneath contempt and the damage they’ve caused is incalcuable.
The ‘myth-makers’ of hell, unleashed. Time to muzzle the entire mad-dog pack of them, no?
Appreciate your standing against them, David, more than words may convey.
Goldberg requires debunking, because he is sold as a “serious intellectual”, and many people who don’t know any better, or who do know better but are sick destructive bastards, accept him as such. If you would rather see him mocked mercilessly, go over to Sadly, No! If you don’t want to hear about him at all, this is probably not the thread for you.
Thanks Dave for the great post. I have not read any books or articles by Goldberg and I probably never will. I base my opinion on mr Goldberg and his writing from seeing him interviewed on various talk shows and such. I would waste my precious time reading anything from someone of his ilk!
How does organic veggies make one Fascist…?
He’s his mama’s own baby boy and because of mama, he has a job and a platform. Don’t make it right (other than wing) just makes it real.
Hmmm! Could be some truth to that actually. Once they are in office and institute their policies they are shown up as the failures they (both the policies and the Conservatives) actually were!
Or it could simply mean “As we begin to come out of the shadows they realize we are zombies!”
David, you’ve provided an elegantly detailed smackdown of Mr. Pantload and his jive premise. I’ll save this link and remember your points in case I’m ever confronted by a conservatard.
You did the heavy lifting, thanks.
Actually yeah, it does mean that we have to slap down the most outrageous idiocies of the right, including Beck and BillO and The Doughy Wide Pantload and Rust Limpballs and so on. There are still too many people who give credence to these folks and give them platforms in the TradMed. Consequently, there are far too many unsuspecting folks, not knowing the history of lies promulgated by these people, who might take seriously their lies.
David,I am not worthy enough to sharpen your literary knives.
That is, without a doubt, the most complete disassembly and intense scrutiny for flaws that I have been privileged to read.
What can he say?
He knows it’s intellectual swampwater to start with and all he is doing is riding it out and cashing the checks.
If he even bothers to read what you have just written he will either ignore it or try blustering and equivocating some bullshit that could only be picked apart faster than his book because it didn’t take so long to come up with.
Beautiful, sir.
This is a well intentioned exercise that, in the end, will simply drive you crazy.
Yeah well, if you hadn’t submitted, there was someone else got a Digg in ahead of me as well.
Well yes, I do read Sadly No! and I do understand your point. But I don’t think that anyone who would regard Goldberg as a “serious intellectual” is reading FDL. It’s not that I can’t handle hearing about him. He is OBVIOUSLY not intellectual, maybe my question should be “How did someone so stupid become the darling of the Right?”
Ok, now maybe THAT’s a stupid question…
The insanity of the right-wing always amazes me. Here’s a case in point. Creationist Museum Selling Mastodon Skull
The same Museum that is selling this skull argues that Mastodons and Dinosaurs survived Noah’s Flood some 5000 years ago and the earth itself is less than 10,000 years old.
But get this…the auction house is claiming that the skull is 40,000 years old. I wonder if they will say they obtained that date through [the obviously unacceptable and erroneous ;-) ] Carbon-14 method…or some analogous technique.
Great Jesus Lizards!
I swear it’s ‘whack-a-mole’, you omitted Kristol, the Kagans, Modo, BoBo, ad nauseum… ;-)
The view here is that the Japanese, German and Italian regimes during WW II were fascistic in nature. But they were not in any sense of the word “liberal”.
My lady tells me she pays no never-mind to likes of Mr. Goldberg. And neither do I. He’s just one of the vegetables stewing in the wretched right wing soup.
A serious intellectual we belive is someone like Noam Chomsky. I’d love to see Mr. Chomsky slice and dice Goldberg in a debate.
David said, “my last book was a piece of history, written journalistically, that nonetheless underwent rigorous peer review from historians in the process of being published.”
And, I suppose, the Pantload’s latest “book” underwent equally rigorous peer review from historians in the process of being published…/s
You do know who his mother is, right?
Heh, He was born with a silver foot in his mouth… ;-)
I want my mommie!
Nice. I’m stealing it.
Actually, he mischaracterizes it. It’s one of the points I’ve wanted to make in my followup posts, but haven’t gotten to it yet.
Here’s what he writes (p. 310):
Actually, what Phillips writes in American Dynasty regarding Prescott Bush touches only briefly on the matter of the War Industries Board (which was largely a corrupt operation in any event) and focuses primarily on the factually well-established matter of Prescott Bush’s financial dealings in helping to funnel American capital into the building Nazi war machine of the 1930s (pp. 38-40). In pp. 40-41, he concludes:
As you can see, Phillips’ criticism of Prescott Bush was much broader-ranging — and ranges right into a fact (that American capitalists were some of the most enthusiastic financial supporters of the Nazi regime) that tends to undercut Goldberg’s claim that the Nazis were primarily left-wing socialists.
I had the privilege to hear Goldberg on Thom Hartmann’s show when he tried to conflate syndicalism with fascism. Thom, ever so politely told him how incoherently impossible his thesis. As you said, Goldberg’s retort was that Thom must not have read the bo
Arrrgh! You would think at some point their heads would explode. I guess the profit motive ALWAYS trumps ideology/spirituality…
The “historians” who might have reviewed it would be in an equivalent class to the “scientists” who promote the “theory” of creationism.
It’s yours my friend. ;0)
Yes, I know who bore the beast. Hence my SOB comment @12.
Now I guess I don’t understand the creative financing of these people at all.
Lemme see? $136,000 legal judgement. You are gonna get $1 million from a gold-nugget. But you will lose the museum if the Mastodon auction doesn’t cover the judgement?
Why not simply sell the nugget to cover the lien? That’s “at least $1 million.”
Hmmm! That’s the Scientific spirit for you…”We’re kind of losing interest.” Maybe if the natural world was a mystery waiting to be discovered rather than “God made it that way, and I don’t wanna discuss it futher” it would have a tad more interest, both to the Directors and the public.
kiddo, the human occupants of our house truly dislike Goldberg and his mommie. As usual, I cannot speak for our non-human occupant.
I’m thinking they suffer from some unasyet named emotional disease. Therapists chime in.
Boyohboyohboy. Two gifts from you. A zed, and now a bon mot. Thank you ever so much.
Thank you Dave. Facts simply aren’t a problem for pantload.
There is a basic flaw with the Digg system: It does not provide a way for any individual reader to numerically express the magnitude of his or her appreciation of the article being Dugg. Compared to some of the posts–all good–that I have Dugg, I wish there was a way I could give this one at least three or four Diggs–without resorting to the use of multiple computers or screen names.
Maybe some of you who have not yet Dugg this post could do so now to help out those of us who would like to award it multiple Diggs.
Just a thought.
foxman, was that a response to my comment, or to someone else’s?
Not that I disagree at all with what you say.
Veggists Rule and oppress meat eaters. They believe that all meat eaters are subhuman and should only mate with gorillas. But wait, aren’t gorillas vegiterranean…..
Is there any financial link between Goldberg’s Mom and Jonah’s “Whale of a Whopper” publisher? Is it published by one of those vanity press groups.
Wasn’t there an absurd lawsuit by several of Regnery’s authors about the latter putting their books on Right Wing book club lists and on “seconded” shelves and not paying royalties? Is someone like Regnery the publisher?
Neiwert’s Three Questions: A simple, and elegant, rebuttal to the fraud that is Jonah Goldberg, and the right-wing media’s worship of him.
Thanks, David. This rocks.
Does the contempt for Goldberg come from the fact that the Right (formerly known as The Fascists) is so good at inventing new facts, new reality and selling it to the general population with such ease? Can we help dispel the myths by talking amongst ourselves? I’d like to hope so, but am kind of discouraged by the results so far…
Barack or Hill going to fix things?
Hitler was a vegetarian…but only because meat gave him gas and acidosis. He didn’t do it for political, moral or environmental reasons.
Heh, Vegans can be a little pushy…! ;-)
I’m inclined to argue in this case that “Goldberg’s omission” is a phenomenon relevant to those cognitive machinations of a facsist. When you take away the pejorative symbols and “bad guy” meaning conjured up by the word fascism, what you’re left with is a consciousness that strains to be able to entertain other conflicting but substantive points of view, what the experience of others might be, and how it all ties together.
Observer as subject: Goldberg.
response to foxman @ 44
foxman, was that a response to my comment, or to someone else’s?
sorry, meant to reply to 35. oops.
Been lurking so long, tryin’ to participate
Someone asked why we should give him any attention – the book is now #3 at Amazon ! The wingers are buying this and it needs a lot of light and fresh air trained on it.
See!
Hitler was a vegiterranean. Hitler was a fascist. Therefore vegiterraneans must be fascists.
Well, clearly, someone should ‘a-dress’ the issue of his mummy’s place in history, especially considering what is ‘off the table’ these days. Sorry, feeling snarkish dis eve.
Or fascists MUST be vegetarians.
One of the very first things I do with a book I’m examining professionally is to check out the bibliography, footnotes, and indexes. Sounds like you do the same, Dave — and Jonah failed spectacularly.
Great takedown of a book and author desperately in need of it!
Happens to us all, foxman.
I keep telling myself “Preview is my friend.” It seems to help, until I forget.
Yea. That, too.
There’s kind of an all of the above answer to your questions. Yes we talk about it. But it also allows us to get the information out to those in other areas who may not spend a lot of time online. And there are many more folks reading FDL than actually do comment here, so it’s not just “talking amongst ourselves.”
on fascists…
Chertoff today speaking about innocent American citizen Eliosa Tamez (Chertoff wants to seize her two hundred year old ancestral estate in order to build his Great Wall… needed to defend against the barbarian pillagers or something or other:
“Can we simply abandon an enterprise because it is a problem for a particular individual?” Chertoff told CNN. “I don’t think I can accept that.” … she has a” civic responsibility” to give up land” in the interests of the national security of her country.
Chertoff in as many words: Individual values and rights are subsumed to the safety of the state… including that very Republican value, the freedom to private property…. isn’t that the very definition of fascism, Mr Goldberg? If Eliosa loses her land, would you agree that we are, in fact, living in a fascist country?
i agree ,he is the epitome of mediocrity…..and not a looker either …heeeeeeheeeeee
You vil give up your land, and you vil like it.
this border security is such teh bullshit ,considering we stole Tex,and Calif,from these Mexicans we now abuse
Jonah must be a self loathing Jew,to put out this shit sandwhich…Nazis like Me
Speaking for myself only of course, I’d like to pay a lot of attention to Mr. Goldberg, and Bill ‘O and Rush and a few other radical right wingnut fascists. But I don’t feel like going to jail. Incarceration and perhaps worse, is for me quite a deterrent.
“And there are many more folks reading FDL than actually do comment here, so it’s not just “talking amongst ourselves.”
As a long time reader [only,] I know that very well. I just have a hard time understanding how this particular, not very bright, son of a muckraker got so big on the radar screen.
Her Mr Goldberg, here’s a fascist on video (Herr Chertoff): http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/…..nnSTCVideo
“civic responsibility to accept sacrifice”… got it
So the new interpretation of eminent domain fits snuggly into the definition of fascism. People lose their property so that the “econony” of a city or state can become more robust. Or we will give your land to the corporate structure. Or we will do whatever we want to with your stuff.
I notice it’s being “put out” today again, that Senator Joe Lieberman may become Senator John McCain’s V.P. running mate.
gosh. and all this time i thought they were married.
they can empty each others bedpans
I’d like to “put out” Joe Lieberman for the trash collectors to pick up in the morning.
SCOTUS is very familiar with this aspect of fascism.
… especially so if the eminent domain is exercised solely in order to build a big fat steel wall whose only function is to protect the ruling Dead White Men Clique’s delusions of racial superiority.
They deserve each other.
Might I add that Jonah has nothing to fear from us liberals? That he can blithely dismiss us as not being serious and not have to worry about the repercussions? That he has no reason to be concerned about liberals taking over the government in a putsch (and not merely because the other side would be armed to the teeth)? That the worst thing that might happen if liberals took over the entire government is that he might be taxed at a higher rate and laughed at more often? Whereas he would shit himself if he found himself surrounded by folks from the Aryan Nations?
No, it takes but a moment of reflection to calculate the true value of Jonah’s arguments.
We weren’t the ones who placed the Doughy Wide Pantload on the radar screen, but since he’s there, thanks to Mama and others, we must do our part to discredit his gibberish and rantings.
truly amazing,really
For him, that’s an existential threat.
I think the right was afraid of getting tagged with being the facists that they are so they tried to the label on the left and Jonah was the point man.
the right has so many odious characters….its enuf to give one nightmares
Yes, they compliment each other so well. eCAHN. A match made in —–
I don’t think this attempt by Jonah will work. He’s a fool and any well read intellectual can tear his arguments to shreads.
reminds me of mike the savage weiner
goldberg should be put the shredder along with book
The fascists are running rampant in this country (there is no need to refer to the fascists as “right wing fascists”, because there is no such thing as a “liberal” fascist). Didn’t these nut cases like Goldberg learn anything about the lessons from the last world war about human rights, liberty, oppression and fascism?
wish he could be put in the time machine oh about 1933 and see who he could relate to in Berlin
goldberg should be put the shredder along with book
You must know where a mighty big shredder is…
“we must do our part to discredit his gibberish and rantings.”
Preaching to the choir, but amen anyway.
I guess ignoring him and hoping he goes away hasn’t really worked out very well anyway…
shredded Pantload is a sight that I would prefer not to envision.
Mann Coulter felt that McCarthy got a bad rap….he who controls the present,controls the past etc
I think those of the authoritarian mindset don’t ever learn from history. They are convinced that they know better than anyone else, and that everything would be so much better if we would all just do what they say. And if we don’t do it voluntarily, they will force us to do it because they know we will be better off afterwards.
Just like W knows that the Iraqis are so much better off now than with SH, and that the Iraqis should be grateful.
That’s nasty. But I like it. ;0)
It is called a chipper… takes care of most any thing/anyone… like Jonah
Chicago school,no?
Cipped Jonah on toast.
Yes, both economics & poli sci/philosophy.
No ‘compassionate’ fascists, eh kiddo.
That sounds about ‘right’…
Now that thought makes me sick… I do like cooking but chipped Jonah on toast:>() spew….
I think we need a nice take down of the Strauss BS… which front pager will take this on???
Second this!!!
I get creeped out by guys liuke Lew Rockwell and his crowd of libertarians and the Mieses institute bots.
I was really trying to avoid any Fargo reference…
well as my beloved grandmother used to say, the apple doesn’t fall from the tree. Of all the disgusting elements of the Monica Lewinsky matter — and god there are just so many: Bill taking advantage of a 21 year old, prissy Ken Starr publishing his pornaggraphic report on same for starters — Lucianne Goldberg always took the gold prize in my book for most disgusting. Convincing her friend Linda Tripp to betray Monica was just fucking evil.
Any discussion of the spawn of Lucianne should always include some reference to the profound betrayal mom engineered. So Jonah, aside from your views of history, do you think that when a friend tells you about their sex life, you should publish it?
sadlyyes, you get the BIG BINGO! for the thread.
For the libertarians, I have a succinct insight. They have no understanding that humans are a herd animal.
Only the son of a woman who used a semen stained dress as her claim to repug fame could write such dribble. Jonah needs to be dry cleaned.
they love their guns~
Alternatively, we could make him wear a blue dress.
And the mods are most appreciative of your restraint…as tough as that may be.
The Blue Dress.
Hey, somebody who’s good at it, photoshop a pic of Jonah Goldberg in The Blue Dress.
The problem with Pantload and his ilk is that the message gets out.
If no one was listening, he and it would be yesterdays news just like Paris Hilton’s last boyfriend.
Remember his name?
I don’t and thats my point.
The problem is the mechanisms in place that allow this idiocy to see the light of day to begin with.
Even before the book came out there was a buzz going about just how bad it was going to be and who was going to bury it next to the cats latest bowel movement.
Now ‘The Load” is running around the talk show circuit like his actually a serious author when he should be pushing a mail cart for his momma’s janitor, a nobody and never has been.
Devil With A Blue Dress
Or better yet, as one of the stains on it.
have you seen this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk1WkmioQvA
JG in a Blue Dress, with LG hovering behind him. That is an image I would love to see Photoshopped. Is there anyone here evil enough?
RBG, always great to know that you are ‘around and about’.
Attaturk….had doughy in a tellatube suit this am
Here is one more of the many things I don’t understand – why do people like JG, who are privileged by any standard, see themselves as victims – which is pretty much his response to any critical review?
Wait for darkblack to turn up. He IS evil enough and he’s actually done worse. *gigglesnorts*
Ah yes, that was good too.
Can’t seem to open photoshop. Nuts.
It’s all the librul’s fault. We created the Culture of Victimhood.
Yepper and reccommend it highly, in spite of some historical ‘thinness’
(especially around Iran: assassination of Mossadegh and role of CIA inspired Savak in bringing about ‘Islamic Revolution’) but that is common gripe of mine; complex history is just that, complex). Torture scenes in Nasser’s Egypt are required viewing for all Americans over fourteen, in my view. BBC did ok, with this.
I saw that Jonah Goldberg clown on Jon Stewart last night. What a lightweight. Articulate enough, but no substance underneath his OK elocution. Stewart ripped him to shreds without breaking a sweat.
Hard to believe cats like him can find paying work at all.
Great post, David.
cinnamonape- sadly, no. Doubleday published this, not Regnery, which was my first assumption also.
Where is Millineryman?
BobbyG, long time no see. Greetings
I sure would like to see the whole 18 minutes which got chopped down to six.
But yeah, JStew ate him alive, and there looked to be open animosity there at the end…
Better yet:
Why don’t we buttonhole every single media person planning to give Goldberg air time and/or ink and order them to ask Goldberg these very questions?
DARE THEM TO DO SO, or be known henceforward as chickenshit enablers of bullshit artists.
PW, I do like how you think!!
Somehow this pic seemed to be appropriate.
http://www.dahothouse.com/media/Blue_Dress.jpg
Hi -
Been busy. Out of town for a bit, then last week got guardianship over my Dad.
Then crapped up my frigging blog template code yesterday, and am trying to rectfiy that. Just as I was ramping up to start podcasting.
Dave, you’ve definitely given Goldberg much more time and serious attention than he deserves. It says a lot about the media (and you and I used to go back-and-forth on these issues way back in the day at the old Fray and The Mote) that Goldberg writes a 500-page book called Liberal Fascism, in which he apparently fails to adequately define either word, and does the usual talk-show circuit. An honest media outlet would have someone like yourself on to provide a serious, comprehensive rebuttal to his nonsense.
Bottom line, Jonah Goldberg putting pen to paper is a shonda.
Does anyone have a potential list of people who would interview him, + emails?
Yeah, Stewart punked his dilettante ass, big time.
I LOVE it. Since you were EPDd, you must post it again at the top of the next thread. So great!
Jane in a plane upstairs
another great example of why dave neiwert is the best writer in blogtopia and yes, i coined that phrase.
Tinky winky?
Unfortunately, us Angelenos have to ignore his column in the LA Times on a weekly basis. This book doesn’t surprise, me considering some of the tripe I have read in his columns.
His parents named him Jonah because they suspected that one day he would turn into a big, fat, stupid whale.
Well, in a sense he is correct, Conservatives are a victim of their own success – success at achieving power.
Once they achieved power and people got a good look at them in action, they looked to the left because they knew conservatives weren’t right.
America’s entire mass media in in trouble for hiring a pathetic crew of columnists, commentators and other pundits to push the Bush/Neocon/Zionist Mafia agenda. All of them, long ago, lost their credibility yet the mass media continues to push on us these discredited and often disgusting people. Jonah Goldberg is one of many creeps the media owners are going to have to replace if they ever hope to get back the trust of the public. Yet the New York Times just recently hired that known mental case, William Kristol, despite the fact that he may have the worst record of any commentator in American history. I have nothing against hiring conservative columnists, but they should show a level of competency and intelligence, and reasonable good taste, which Goldberg, Kristol and many others like them have not. The public knows that these people are not really conservative voices but rather Zionist or NeoCon or Bush-nut propagandists. We know they’re idiots because they have proven themselves to be idiots and continue to do so. Everyone knows it but the arrogant owners of the media. It is so bad that many of us are asking if the mass media owners are complicit in treason. They certainly are not serving the good of the public, so who’s good are they serving?
People like Jonah Goldberg and Ann Coulter are just
re-writing history in order to pave the way for
mass-arrests and possible genocide.
Things may not go that way in America, but
there can be little doubt that prison camps
and mass-executions for Liberals/”dissidents” are
actual wet dreams for monsters like Goldberg,
Coulter, Hannity, Beck, etc etc
They are vile.
Fascism is compulsory ethnic based nationalism, abhorrent to liberal ideals. But the right wingers insist otherwise and indulge in projection. A wingnut I know insists that taxation on the rich is a form of slavery.
Great stuff, Dave. I don’t agree that engaging Goldberg is futile. Unlike others of his ilk, he seems to be genuinely hurt and annoyed that his
defecation on the coffee table during a cocktail partythesis isn’t recognized for the brilliant, original synthesis he thinks it is. I think he lacks the calculating cynicism of other right-wing “thinkers,” who understand that a short, provocatively titled book full of outrageous assertions is all that’s necessary. Goldberg wanted to produce a masterpiece, thinks he’s done so and can’t laugh away the criticism. Keep hitting that spot, I say.I do have a very minor disagreement with you:
Yeah, that professor friend could be Reynolds, but it might be “Formidable Law Blogger” Ann Althouse. She links to Goldberg’s columns, appeared on Bloggingheads with him and made sure to let readers know when he was due to appear in Madison. Althouse blows people off constantly. Until the transformation takes place.
Jonah: Didn’t work, Ann.
Ann: It didn’t?
Jonah: He’s still being mean to me.
Ann: Then he should be forced to APOLOGIZE to you!! Abjectly!!! NOW!!!!
Whoever gave Jonah that advice, it’s funny that they didn’t want to be named. As you say, chickenshit.
“But it’s clear that for Goldberg, this is largely a semantical exercise, a chance to bend definitions, to play rhetorical tit-for-tat with liberals “
This line in the above post says it all. It is exactly, practically word for word the conclusion I embraced watching this guy (Goldberg) on the Daily Show.
There’s nothing behind the curtain, just a semantical flim flam show.
What’s interesting is that liberalism carried to the nth degree begins to squeeze individual enterprise in both financial and social pursuits to the exact effect of black shirts and goose stepping. That Goldberg can’t flesh this out shows that he is just a shallow mind grubbing for bucks and prestige by repeating a set of propaganda lines.
–cognitorex–