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	<title>Comments on: Debate Thread #4</title>
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	<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/</link>
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		<title>By: otchmoson</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1207239</link>
		<dc:creator>otchmoson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 17:51:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1207239</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;When I watched the civil discourse that masqueraded as a debate last night . . . but first thought was WOW! What 3 great candidates. Their differences were so minimal as to be almost indistinguishable . . . and we aligned with much of my belief system. A true win-win-win for all three candidates, despite Mr. Matthews’ attempt to frame the exercise as a WIN FOR HILLARY.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;On further consideration, however, I have altered my view, and see this as a lose-lose-lose proposition for the contenders. Each of them had an opportunity to demonstrate how the abuse of corporate media power diminishes us all, limiting our exposure to only the candidates the corporate media defines as “potential winning candidates.” Had Obama, Clinton and Edwards, at the very last possible moment, departed from the venue to protest the exclusion of Kucinich and abuse of power, each would have garnered valuable media time as they explained their action; they would have truly stood up for the “voiceless” (both Kucinich and the American public); and they would have made a powerful statement that corporations have not yet attained absolute power. Instead, each apparently saw the additional face-time with the camera as more valuable than any statement they could have made about speaking truth to power.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I watched the civil discourse that masqueraded as a debate last night . . . but first thought was WOW! What 3 great candidates. Their differences were so minimal as to be almost indistinguishable . . . and we aligned with much of my belief system. A true win-win-win for all three candidates, despite Mr. Matthews’ attempt to frame the exercise as a WIN FOR HILLARY.</p>
<p>On further consideration, however, I have altered my view, and see this as a lose-lose-lose proposition for the contenders. Each of them had an opportunity to demonstrate how the abuse of corporate media power diminishes us all, limiting our exposure to only the candidates the corporate media defines as “potential winning candidates.” Had Obama, Clinton and Edwards, at the very last possible moment, departed from the venue to protest the exclusion of Kucinich and abuse of power, each would have garnered valuable media time as they explained their action; they would have truly stood up for the “voiceless” (both Kucinich and the American public); and they would have made a powerful statement that corporations have not yet attained absolute power. Instead, each apparently saw the additional face-time with the camera as more valuable than any statement they could have made about speaking truth to power.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206693</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 06:11:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206693</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;A candidate right now can ride “The President it a Dumbshit” all the way to the White House-&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;She apparently noticed this first and acted on it….&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;She also used that back in the late summer to early fall to avoid talking about issues with Obama or Edwards. It’s a way of avoiding the fight at hand and indicates a lack of connectedness with reality. It’s avoidance!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>A candidate right now can ride “The President it a Dumbshit” all the way to the White House-</p>
<p>She apparently noticed this first and acted on it….</p>
</blockquote>
<p>She also used that back in the late summer to early fall to avoid talking about issues with Obama or Edwards. It’s a way of avoiding the fight at hand and indicates a lack of connectedness with reality. It’s avoidance!</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206690</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 06:09:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206690</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;edwards is probably fucked- and after tonight’s performance, I can see why. I voted for him- but now I wish I could change it. He wasn’t much good.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;LOL You working for NBC? or Hillary?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>edwards is probably fucked- and after tonight’s performance, I can see why. I voted for him- but now I wish I could change it. He wasn’t much good.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>LOL You working for NBC? or Hillary?</p>
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		<title>By: cinnamonape</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206686</link>
		<dc:creator>cinnamonape</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 06:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206686</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Interesting that the Republicans outpolled Dems by over 300,000 in Michigan (853,241 vs. 561,886 w/ 97% counted). That’s just opposite of the earlier contested Primaries - so it could mean that Dems and Inds stayed at home out of boredom or jumped ship to vote in the Pug Primary.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It may be that folks simply didn’t reveal their affiliation if they thought that they were pranking the Republican results. But I did notice that over 30% of the exit pollers opposed the US being in Iraq and almost that were Union Members. 11% of the respondants were “liberals” so I would think that at least that crossed over to do ‘mischief’.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If all of those voted for Mitt, as suggested, Mitt would have lost by 3-4%. If they had voted for McCain it would have been an even greater loss. Only a 5% switch (5% less for Mitt, 5% more for McCain) would have given McCain the election. That’s only half of those that are acknowledged cross-overs!&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting that the Republicans outpolled Dems by over 300,000 in Michigan (853,241 vs. 561,886 w/ 97% counted). That’s just opposite of the earlier contested Primaries &#8211; so it could mean that Dems and Inds stayed at home out of boredom or jumped ship to vote in the Pug Primary.</p>
<p>It may be that folks simply didn’t reveal their affiliation if they thought that they were pranking the Republican results. But I did notice that over 30% of the exit pollers opposed the US being in Iraq and almost that were Union Members. 11% of the respondants were “liberals” so I would think that at least that crossed over to do ‘mischief’.</p>
<p>If all of those voted for Mitt, as suggested, Mitt would have lost by 3-4%. If they had voted for McCain it would have been an even greater loss. Only a 5% switch (5% less for Mitt, 5% more for McCain) would have given McCain the election. That’s only half of those that are acknowledged cross-overs!</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206672</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 06:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206672</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Yeah, early on Noron had the results that showed more than 65% of the GOP voters were GOPs, only about 7% were Democrats. &lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If my new-math skills are still good that 65% and 7% only add up to 72%. So, where did the other 28% come from? And, did those 7% all vote for Romnatron to give him the win?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Yeah, early on Noron had the results that showed more than 65% of the GOP voters were GOPs, only about 7% were Democrats. </p>
</blockquote>
<p>If my new-math skills are still good that 65% and 7% only add up to 72%. So, where did the other 28% come from? And, did those 7% all vote for Romnatron to give him the win?</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206662</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:51:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206662</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I wish John McCain would stop saying “my friends.”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Yeah, well it’s just politics and according to McCain it’s alright to fib in politics.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I wish John McCain would stop saying “my friends.”</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Yeah, well it’s just politics and according to McCain it’s alright to fib in politics.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206652</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206652</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;BREAKING: Wexler Demands Impeachment Hearings on Floor&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Wow! I like Wexler. Who is he?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>BREAKING: Wexler Demands Impeachment Hearings on Floor</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Wow! I like Wexler. Who is he?</p>
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		<title>By: eCAHNomics</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206646</link>
		<dc:creator>eCAHNomics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206646</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Judging by my one trip to Ellis Island many years ago, immigrants to the U.S. didn’t learn the language but their children did. Don’t think anything different is going on now.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judging by my one trip to Ellis Island many years ago, immigrants to the U.S. didn’t learn the language but their children did. Don’t think anything different is going on now.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206644</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206644</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;Anyone see any difference in the three candidate’s positions on what to do about Iraq? I didn’t.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I thought Clinton &amp; Obama still called for having combat troops &lt;b&gt;inside&lt;/b&gt; Iraq, even after the ‘war’ was over.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Anyone see any difference in the three candidate’s positions on what to do about Iraq? I didn’t.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>I thought Clinton &amp; Obama still called for having combat troops <b>inside</b> Iraq, even after the ‘war’ was over.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkH</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206639</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2008 05:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2008/01/15/debate-thread-4/#comment-1206639</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;the ‘english only’ question&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Despite the simple-minded racist view which requires that “we” be right and only English is acceptable there is also a big-picture perspective which is that having multiple languages can be very dangerous for a society. It becomes much harder to maintain integrity and the proper functioning of the nation as a whole.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It isn’t a simple question to tackle, despite the simple-minded answers that are available.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>the ‘english only’ question</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Despite the simple-minded racist view which requires that “we” be right and only English is acceptable there is also a big-picture perspective which is that having multiple languages can be very dangerous for a society. It becomes much harder to maintain integrity and the proper functioning of the nation as a whole.</p>
<p>It isn’t a simple question to tackle, despite the simple-minded answers that are available.</p>
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