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"What we saw this morning was why the American people are tired of Washington politicians and the games they play," said Obama in a conference call announcing the endorsement of Sen. Claire McCaskill (Mo.) "[Clinton] started this campaign saying that she wanted to make history and lately she has been spending some time rewriting it."
On the recent controversy regarding remarks Clinton made about Martin Luther King Jr.’s role in the civil rights movement, Obama called the comments "unfortunate" and blasted Clinton for accusing his campaign of distorting her words for political gain. "The notion that this is somehow our doing is ludicrous," he said.
Memo from Amaya Smith, South Carolina Press Secretary, Obama for America:
MARTIN LUTHER KING / LYNDON JOHNSON COMPARISON
Clinton, Criticizing Obama For Promising "False Hope" Said That While MLK Jr. Spoke On Behalf Of Civil Rights, President Lyndon Johnson Was The One Who Got Legislation Passed: "It Took A President To Get It Done." Clinton rejoined the running argument over hope and "false hope" in an interview in Dover this afternoon, reminding Fox’s Major Garrett that while Martin Luther King Jr. spoke on behalf of civil rights, President Lyndon Johnson was the one who got the legislation passed. Hillary was asked about Obama’s rejoinder that there’s something vaguely un-American about dismissing hopes as false, and that it doesn’t jibe with the careers of figures like John F. Kennedy and King. "Dr. King’s dream began to be realized when President Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act," Clinton said. "It took a president to get it done." [Politico, 1/7/08; Video]
Bill Shaheen quite rightly payed the price for implying Obama was a drug dealer. I’ll leave others to decide the merits of the argument that Clinton’s comments were racist, but it’s clear that Obama’s campaign is pushing the story. Laundering arguments you don’t want to make yourself through surrogates and hoping you don’t have to take responsibility for them should not be an option available to candidates this time around.
FWIW, Russert redux — I hope nobody lets Clinton get away with the war argument she made on MTP this morning, either. Is she really trying to say that she and Obama have identical voting records on the war, but it was okay for her to vote for funding because she supported it and he didn’t? Because I really can’t figure out any other way to read that.
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good afternoon, Jane!
I think both Clinton and Obama’s campaigns have been really over the top with all this crap, on both ends: interpreting racism or sexism where it doesn’t exist in some cases, and deliberately making the campaigns into issues about race and sex in others. It’s pathetic.
Teddy!
I imagine the way to read the war-vote & war-funding arguments from Camp Clinton is the way Bill presented it: it’s a fairy tale promoted by the media. Camp Clinton must believe that the media is giving Obama a pass on an issue Clinton is questioned about over and over: her initial support for Bush’s war resolution and subsequent funding therefor, which she only stopped once 70% of Americans opposed it.
Because Obama’s war-funding vote is identical to Clinton’s, Camp Clinton thinks he’s getting easy treatment. They seem to think it’s an argument about media coverage.
Why they think this is a winning argument, or one Hillary wants to have, though, baffles me. It leads right back to her AUMF vote.
As far as Clinton’s remarks being racist… I don’t think she’s a racist. That’s obvious. So her remarks aren’t. I know what you’re sayin’. I think. You make a distinction between the person and the remarks and I’m not making that disctinction. But that’s my opionion. Her remarks aren’t racist, they’re…. well, unfortunate. Good call BO. You’re right though. Hard as she tries, she’s going nowhere on the war issue.
I fault the Obama campaign more than the Clinton campaign in this current dustup about race. I think the Obama campaign is mischaracterizing remarks Bill Clinton made. When he made the fairytale comment he was clearly refering to the Obama narrative on Iraq, not Obama’s run for the presidency. In addition, the Clinton campaign has taken steps to remove surrogates like Shaheen who clearly stepped over the line. The Obama camp has not.
Wouldn’t it be ironic if Obama, who is campaigning to bring American together, caused a real racial divide among Democrats.
the more they snip at each other, the less i like either of em – and the better john edwards looks in comparison.
I agree. they need to take a step back. Probably won’t happen before Super-T.
Anybody see that knucklehead from USN&WR on C-Span? What’s his name? Barrone? Holy Moley!
Suz — John who?
Hey.Suzane.
Hey! Me an’ Suzanne agree.
They keep it up and Rev. Huckabee will be looking good.
This tactic being used by both campaigns is so ruinous to both of them and to progressive politics in general.
-G
(laughing) you know, that fancy haircut rich lawyer guy the r’s don’t want to go against (my opinion as to the reason for the media blackout)
I heard someone call him Jonathan Edwards. They can’t even get his name right.
“Bill Shaheen quite rightly payed the price”
“paid”
All I need is a fancy haircut, some money and boyish good looks and that’s me!!!
Ding!
Hiya, Jane!
This sentence in your post is not making sense to me; maybe there is a missing word:
I heard that too, but what immediately came to mind for some reason was Jonathan Livingston Seagull:
Per Wiki:
“The novel tells the story of Jonathan Livingston Seagull, a seagull who is bored with the daily squabbles over food and seized by a passion for flight. He pushes himself, learning everything he can about flying, until finally his unwillingness to conform results in his expulsion from his flock. An outcast, he continues to learn, becoming increasingly pleased with his abilities as he leads an idyllic life.
One day, Jonathan is met by two gulls who take him to a “higher plane of existence”, where he meets other gulls who love to fly. He discovers that his sheer tenacity and desire to learn make him “a gull in a million”. Jonathan befriends the wisest gull in this new place, named Chiang, who takes him beyond his previous learning, teaching him how to move instantaneously to anywhere else in the universe. The secret, Chiang says, is to “begin by knowing that you have already arrived”.
Not satisfied with his new life, Jonathan returns to Earth to find others like him, to bring them his learning and to spread his love for flight. His mission is successful, gathering around him others who have been outlawed for not conforming. Ultimately, one of his students, Fletcher Lynd Seagull, becomes a teacher in his own right and Jonathan leaves to continue his learning.”
Heh!
theSoar John Edwards!!
Sounds like I have to abandon all hope of election to political office.
I don’t think that Hillary’s comments (or Bill’s for that matter) are racist. Uninformed and typically political…Yes. But racist, no.
The fact is the LBJ would NEVER have shifted to support the Voting Rights Act without the massive push by Martin Luther King, Jr. LBJ was dragged unwillingly to the position of Civil Rights. He had decades within the House to undertake such legislation and never made any such move to do so. So if Clinton is comparing herself to LBJ…it means we are gonna have to drag her kickin’ and screamin’ to do the rigght thing. And unlike Obama, who may wish to compare himself to MLK [is THAT really what he is doing…Barack Obama…you are NO Martin Luther King, Jr.!], MLK never EVER had the ambition to become a politician. He knew that politics was the principal road to moral compromise, and avoided it like the plague.
So both Obama and Hillary need to learn a bit from history and realize that they are spinning history in a manner that makes both of them appear to be compromising and politically ambitious and manipulative.
That’s the deal exactly, Suz. The Invisible Man.
Hey Fern.
it’s Sunday. great day to undermine the faith of your Campus Crusade nephew.
Uh-oh. My doxie gotta piss. be right back.
It is interesting to me how the gender and race issues are playing out. . .I know a lot of people are for her because she’s a woman and for him because he’s AA. I just do not find either of these a compelling single reason to vote for a person.
Hillary voted for the AUMF. She voted to allow W to use military force, period.
Obama made it clear, at the time, that he did not agree with going to war with Iraq.
They both voted to fund the war, which was already in progress. A vote against funding the troops would have been political suicide for Obama. He would not have been able to change anything in this congressional climate until elected, in any case. I think he used the right judgment when you consider the bigger picture.
I do think we will have to drag Preznit Hillary kicking and screaming to do the right thing, though. In a way, I think she was telling the progressive wing of the party exactly that by comparing herself to LBJ — that she intends to be a great liberal president despite her pitiful Senate record.
And by liberal she means Scoop Jackson/RGJoe liberal.
It’s the ‘Thrilla from Manila’ narrative, and the MSM don’t cotton to anyone messing up their story.
Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks in plenty of states who will use this criteria to vote against either.
Back. ee-jit dog. He’s clawin’ at me and runnin’ around in circles. All for a teeny, little squirt. he coulda held that.
Re racism: In a way, HRC is right (and I’m no special fan of hers). MLK was the inspiration and the force that energized America around the idea of improving things. But LBJ is really responsible for a lot of the practical aspects, especially the legislation (he was really a master arm-twister and put an enormous effort into that). So historically, that makes sense. But what is HRC implying re the present campaign? That Obama is playing the MLK role and only she can play the LBJ role? I’d like to hear her spell this out a bit. Certainly, IMO, she is very good at the detail work. But I really worry about her ability and even her desire to go for the big issues that need large, almost radical changes: health care, the war, the economy, you name it. She seems way too timid, or too likely to triangulate. Obama I don’t know (I wish I did!). He talks a good line in general, but what would he actually do as President?
Re Iraq: Again, in a way she has a point. They both have voted for funding, and not made any practical difference in how the war has gone, until perhaps very recently (and then not much, nor has anybody else). But at least he spoke against it at the start (admittedly, he wasn’t in the Senate and so didn’t vote). Don’t know how to assess that–wish I did!
Overall, I like Obama’s charisma and the fact that he really can be inspiring, one of the best orators of our time IMO, and he taps into the latent optimism and hope. That’s really important for a President. But it’s only half the story. You also have to get things done, to make a practical difference, and there I worry about him. Would like to know more–my hunch (not based on a lot of study, admittedly) is that he is a deal-maker by inclination, and might not make the best use of what should be a great opportunity, if he’s elected (and has a Dem majority in both houses).
Well, there’s my two cents (on a lovely Sunday in Maine)!
Nah, not today. Just letting those little seeds of doubt grow for a while.
I support Edwards, but I’m beginning to think a big Obama victory in New Hampshire would have been better, as it may have tamped down this ridiculous back and forth sniping about non-issues.
Here, here.
-G
Maybe this three-way Tuesday debate in Lost Wages on MSNBC will show us some daylight on issues.
Ha!
Yeah. For or against. Not a good reason. the Republicans scare the shit outta me. that’s a good reason. It was said further up but the further this thing goes, the less impressed i am w/ HRC & BO. I think maybe I’m too into this. I just need a break. take a rest from political stuff and watch sports.
This why comparing yourself to LBJ is really dumb in light of what’s going on in the Middle East:
“The Johnson administration remained hesitant to raise the American commitment to Vietnam. However, in August 1964, following the reputed shelling of United States warships in the Gulf of Tonkin off the North Vietnamese coast, Johnson approved air strikes against North Vietnamese naval bases. At President Johnson’s urgent request, the United States Congress passed the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, which gave the president the power “to take all necessary measures to repel any armed attack against the forces of the United States and to prevent further aggression.” This tougher United States stance was matched in Moscow in October when Leonid Brezhnev and Aleksey Kosygin took over control of the government following the fall from power of Nikita Khrushchev. The new Soviet government pledged increased military support for Hanoi, and the NLF set up a permanent mission in Moscow.”
All this snipping back and forth does is turn off voters – the exact opposite of what they should be trying to do.
Enough with the shiny bright thong of distraction – I want clear, concise statements on the issues since I do not use infotainment to determine who I will vote for.
Good afternoon, Jane;
Ah, once again we are blessed with the rapier wit, nuanced insight and clear-eyed superioiry of the political animal (or am-i-nal as my youngest used to say).
Harken the clarion call of boundless narcissistic political stupidity!!!
Afterall, every election is really about ‘the’ politician’s unerring ‘rightness’ in every sense and in every regard. Always. All the time.
Are politicians born pathetic or are they merely unfortunate abacedarian throwbacks resulting from our collective consanguinity?
I am so very impressed with both of these stellar souls as to not have the words to express it adequately nor even to do so in the manner which they both so clearly and richly deserve.
With all this mudsling between Obama and Hillary it is no wonder I have consistently favored John Edwards! Clinton has the hate factor against her and Obama just leaves me wondering what is wrong with him… there is just something. Funny thing I have a good friend on my street, who is an elderly Black women and while visiting her yesterday ( she called my dog Tucker to come visit, her as she often does when she catches us out side) we ended up talking politics and candidates ( I thought sure she would be for Obama, little did I know) She has the same feelings about Obama, there is just something about him she just doesn’t trust and she is going to vote for Edwards. She feels that Edwards really cares about the the down trodden poor and middle class folks, I found that interesting that she would have the same doubts and feelings as my self a lily white boy. Just thought I would share that little story with fellow firepups.
I thought that JJ Jr. making the remark that Hillary didn’t cry about Katrina was race-baiting in a big way. Distasteful.
Thinking back to when I was in high school, the Army, out of the Army, visiting the burnt-out DC homes – destroyed in the post-assassination protests and riots – of some of my African American buddies from the Army, listening to the reactions at that time of LBJ to MLK’s death, I seem to remember LBJ not at his best. He had just announced he wasn’t running again. His army was in incredible racial unrest, some units totally ineffective from the disharmony, especially those commanded by racist white men who had never gotten used to an integrated military.
I despised LBJ through much of his presidency, as did almost all my friends. We saw his civil rights legislation as expedient, not excellence; as political necessity for saving urban constituencies at the expense of much of the deep south; as a last desperate attempt to save his legacy, not a visionary’s quest.
Just shows you how old-school HRC is for her to fail to realize that a lot of African Americans have very, very mixed feelings about LBJ.
Did i tell you guys that when i went to the CCC complex yesterday I saw a gator inone of their person-made lakes? Over 2 years in Fl and my first gator. I said to the guy, like I knew what I saw talkin’ about: “Hmmm. Pretty big.” He’s a native. “That’s a bay-uh-bee.”
Seemingly ignored is the Clintons continuing push of the “fairy tale” story advanced by the Clintons in NH. Next move was Bill Clinton going to Al Sharpton to “defend” the fairy tale story. Of course, no one from the Obama campaign asked Sharpton to defend Obama and Sharpton, who was found to have not been truthful in the Tawana Brawley case and Bill Clinton who found not to have been truthful in the Monica Lewinsky case, are then seen arguing whether Obama is truthful. Another seedy attempt by the Clintons to attack Obama, keep Bill Clinton’s accusation alive and associate Obama with the likes of Sharpton
I’ve been for Edwards sine ‘04 but I wonder if he wasn’t running neck-and -neck with either one if he wouldn’t be throwin’ some mud around.
I repeat…all of this sniping could leave Edwards as last man standing…he’s committed to go all the way…Go John!
Not been truthful in the Tawaney Brawley case????!!!!!
Sharpton is a fucking liar to the bone. I detest the man.
I like the sound of that!
Edwards has joined the slap fight–attacking hillary’s MLK/LBJ comments. Any theories as to what his angle is?
Sure do wish the candidates would concentrate on the issues that really matter and not on faux claims of racism. It makes me glad my guy — Edwards — isn’t in the middle of it. Nobody will be pulling ugly quotes out of the ether in the future showing how he put his foot in his mouth because he didn’t.
If Obama really said there was “something vaguely un-American about dismissing hopes as false” it gives me a chill and not in a good way. Are we really going to have our candidates debating about which one is more American? It makes me think of the hate speech that comes out of the right wing machine (”Why do you hate America?”). Please don’t let the campaign go down that nasty road, Obama. It’s truly nauseating.
On the issue that matters most to me personally — repeal of DOMA* — there’s a clear bright line. Hillary favors partial repeal, and retention of Section 2 which says states can’t recognize other states’ contracts for marriage. It’s clearly unconstitutional (full faith and credit) and yet it’s the part she would retain. Edwards and Obama would repeal DOMA entirely.
While there are many, many other issues where you can find daylight, for me it’s important to find an issue close to me. Then I see what the candidates would do. In this case, it was a very easy decision not to support Hillary in the primary.
*the federal Defense of Marriage Act which Bill Clinton signed.
I hope he is committed. Saw some rumblings here to the questioning this- not his commitment, I guess, but his ability to do so.
Keeping her on the defense.
I think what HRC is trying to do is say, “See, he’s no better than me.” Since the whole basis of Obama’s campaign is how different and better he is, it makes sense to try and undercut that.
I honestly can’t see anything racist about the statements from either Clinton. I don’t know how people could. I’m most worried about the MLK distortion: to acknowledge that, yes, LBJ used his mastery of congressional politics to make the civil rights dream a reality is not to dismiss the incredible legacy of MLK–at all.
Democrats calling each other racists and male chauvinists makes Karl Rove happy.
gotta link?
He is in last place and he is trying to become competitive.
Seriously? How disappointing. I support Edwards, but I can’t stand this especially when there is an embarrassment of riches to attack her on the issues.
Ding, ding, ding.
“questioning this” not “to the questioning this”-
You hit the nail on the head. When Kerry went on and on about fighting against”Nixon’s War” I knew it was technically true, because the actions he (we) were invovlved in were after LBJ left office, but LBJ and Saint JFK were just as culpable. I was in the field in Korea when MLK was killed and the thing that will never leave me was a couple of militant Chicago brothers who said, “bout time they offed that Oreo”. My little suburban white ass was stunned but these cats were into Malcom and had long since given up on non-violent civil disobediance. Quite an education for me.
Damn right.
‘zactly. what Patrickson said.
Oh Hillary. I realize you want to be prez more than anything else in the universe. But you are such a good senator. If it makes you feel any better our desire for you to become our new president is no less appealing than our craving for a President Obama.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed just after the JFK assassination and the Voting Rights Act was 1965..too early for the “save the legacy” reason.
I like Al Sharpton.
Ding….f-ing….ding….
-G
I still hear Barak Osama.
Thanks for sharing your neighbor’s support for John Edwards – it infuriates me the MSM refuses to cover his campaign and seems to be getting by with their nefarious neglect.
Clinton is disbarred for not telling the truth in the lewinsky case, the lawyers involved with Sharpton in the Brawley case are disbarred. Sharpton is found liable for defamation in the Brawley case. Yet here are the Clintons accusing Obama of being a liar on the Sharpton show. Ok anything goes with the Clintons and the MSM.
I disagree. LBJ needed MLK and the civil rights movement to create a political climate in which he could pass legislation, but I don’t think he was dragged kicking and screaming. LBJ did this knowing full well the significant political consequences for the entire Democratic party.
Here:
http://www.tnr.com/politics/st…..5b7c4d0d0c
For people interested in learning about LBJ’s role in passing Civil Rights legislation, I would recommend the third volume of Robert Caro’s excellent bigraphy of LBJ:”Masters of the Senate.”
He was pig either way, go down to the Wall if you don’t think so.
For the first time on Sunday, the debate also expanded to include Edwards, who turned the “fairy tale” accusation back around against the Clintons.
“As someone who grew up in the segregated South, I feel an enormous amount of pride when I see the success that Sen. Barack Obama is having in this campaign,” Edwards said during an appearance at Mt. Zion Missionary Baptist Church in Sumter, S.C.
Edwards continued: “I must say I was troubled recently to see a suggestion that real change came not through the Rev. Martin Luther King, but through a Washington politician. I fundamentally disagree with that. Those who believe that real change starts with Washington politicians have been in Washington too long — and are living in a fairy tale.”
http://blog.washingtonpost.com…..ver_c.html
nahant, does she need a ride to the polls? or to early voting? every vote counts in California, you know….
So what do you all think of this from another Hillary surrogate;
He then added: “And to me, as an African-American, I am frankly insulted that the Obama campaign would imply that we are so stupid that we would think Hillary and Bill Clinton, who have been deeply and emotionally involved in black issues since Barack Obama was doing something in the neighborhood – and I won’t say what he was doing, but he said it in the book – when they have been involved.”
Moments later, he added: “That kind of campaign behavior does not resonate with me, for a guy who says, ‘I want to be a reasonable, likable, Sidney Poitier ‘Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner.’ And I’m thinking, I’m thinking to myself, this ain’t a movie, Sidney. This is real life.”
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes…..ama-in-sc/
————————————————
I don’t know which is worse, Hillary’s Rovian 9-11 rhetoric, or these surrogates?
Once again Mr. Bush, you are wrong. You are the world’s leading terrorist.
AP – President Bush gently nudged authoritarian Arab allies Sunday to satisfy frustrated desires for democracy in the Mideast and saved his harshest criticism for Iran, branding it “the world’s leading state-sponsor of terror.”
From my view, the real problem with the MLK/LBJ comment is that, if you think about it, with the parallels it’s drawing to the current situation, it ends up making the argument that if we have a choice between electing King or LBJ as president, we’d be better off electing LBJ. Obviously, that’s not what the comparison was intended to do, but if you think it through, that’s what it does.
Alternatively, it points out that whatever argument you’re trying to make politically, painting your opponent as Martin Luther King, Jr. is not a smart move.
On wingnut radio it’s Barak Mohammed Hussein Obama
Chimpy always gives the House of Saud a pass.
-G
Painting one’s self as LBJ seems equally ill-suited to today’s Democratic Party, the nomination of which she seeks.
These remarks have his fingerprints all over the namecallers. Guess none of them learned a thing. And the white bunch on the Repug ticket come off lily white and above it all. Silly Democrats. Trying to one up each other with race and gender is the same old stupid.
Greg the house of saud is Chimpy’s base!
Ugly, ugly, ugly — none of the campaigns are covering themselves in glory . . .
Between the Saturday debate and the misty eyed comments on Monday, Hillary made some assertions that are worthy of push back. Woven into her “I’ve been doing this for 35 years” comments are the Clintons sense of entitlement, and the conceit that they irreplaceable, and the indispensable agents of change.
NO ONE is irreplaceable, and no one is indispensable — and the Clintons are not entitled to a ‘do-over’ in the White House.
Let me see if I get this straight. As a Democratic senator you vote in favor of a Republican president to attack a Middle Eastern country and kill many men, women and children. But that’s cool, and you should be our next president. Do I have that right?
Are we going to hold every candidate responsible for the comments of their supporters? Because Obama certainly hasn’t exactly had the most tactful of supporters either (see: Jackson, Jr., a national co-chair, an actual staffer; and Eric Dyson, a supporter). I don’t know if whether that statement is true or not (It’s difficult to trust the Times anymore), but I don’t want us to hold individual candidates responsible for their supporters. Staffers yes, supporters no.
Hell, you don’t even have to go to DC, you can visit it from the comfort of your easy chair
http://www.vvmf.org/
RIght on, couldn’t agree more. The People own the White House, only they can rent it to the President!
Bush is playing for the Ghandi comparisons:
Usually averse to sightseeing, Bush rode out into the sand dunes to the desert encampment of Abu Dhabi’s crown prince, Sheik Mohammed Bin Zayed Al Nahyan. He let Bush hold one of his prize falcons. “Later, Bush returned to his suite in the opulent Emirates Palace Hotel, constructed at a cost of more than $3 billion and reputed to be the most expensive hotel ever built.”
Sickening.
-G
If Democrats in Michigan are looking for something interesting to do with their vote…why not vote for Chris Dodd he could be Michigan’s favorite son.
From which countries did the 9-11 perps emanate?
What I mostly do not get is why try to define the civil rights era by comparing anyone to anyone. Maybe they were counting on the young Obama voters to not know history and fall for it somehow….just thinkin’…
The Clintons are both acting weird. I think she needs to fire her advisors.
thanks for that. it perfectly describes what’s happening imo.
Liberalstan.
-G
Such sweet music you are playing. ;0)
Dodd and Edwards. Nice combo.
If that’s Edwards jump into the fray, I think it’s just fine. He avoids keeping the “racist” angle going, but uses the statement to reinforce his questioning of Clinton’s “experience” message. Yeah, it would be better if he could get coverage talking about differences on the issues, but I think we all know how far that would go in the media.
I think both of these campaigns need to knock it off. They are both slinging mud and it needs to stop. When we have something as glaring as Hillary’s “defense” of her IRW vote, we have to push back and push back hard. The campaigns sending out surrogates to put forward the racism/misogeny arguments is unacceptable and those surrogates doing that need to join Bill Shaheen on the sidelines.
Perhaps they are confusing their meds. ;0)
I stand corrected.
Edwards/Dodd: That’s my dream team.
While I agree with some of your statement….UH… this supporter was just with her at a rally at a Church…..a little different..OH and I thought J.Jackson Jr’s comment was way off base too.
But Clinton is trying to cause division in the african American community, and if you go look around some of the African American blogs, it ain’t pretty…and they are right for being really angry
Hahaha! LBJ dragged kicking and screaming! Are you kidding? LBJ was a master politician. You can put his picture next to the word for the clearest fefinition.
He met with King and told King he had to do his part and push and LBJ would push back. That’s how the game was done. That’s how King would make progress. LBJ was right otherwise it would have been the white man “giving” equality to the blacks. Smart move on LBJ’s part. That’s the work of a master politician. He knew the South would never go along. And to this day, the Repugs own the South and play Jim Crow Lite with them.
We need to keep reminding southern Repugs they are Jim Crow Lite and let them off the hook.
He’s right. Hilary’s wrong. Apologize Hillary. I demand you apologize!!!!
Eight years of Hillary. Orrrrr. Eight years of Obama. Which do you prefer?
I’ll take 8 years of Lahoma!
Yes. Kiddo, you got it straight. Now don’t tell anybody. The truth should NEVER be known;)
Jane on Seder
I love Seder on Sunday on Air America
Does all this remind anyone else of a game of Risk when there are three players left and two gang up to take out the third before turning on each other? Okay, maybe it is just me. I played it a lot as a teenager. Mind you, I’m not a big Hillary fan at all these days, but that is what this reminds me of. Usually every time Edwards talks about Obama with glowing praise.
Maybe I’m awfully cynical, but I don’t think any of them can be trusted as much as some people seem to want to trust them. That said, they are all better than any candidate from the Angry White Man’s party.
Wait, wait — Suzanne sez there’s some other guy running too! What’s his name?
Yes, while we are getting all misty-eyed over LBJ, He KNEW the truth of the Gulf of Tonkin ‘incident’ and that is why he bailed. Lots of people,
Americans (black and white and ‘other’), Vietnamese and Cambodians paid the ultimate ‘price’ for LBJ’s dishonesty.
As regards Civil Rights, LBJ did do the right thing but I suspect that he intended, somehow, to profit personally, if only in the ‘History’ books, from his action, still, I credit him for doing what JFK should certainly have found the courage (in ‘profile’ or straight on) to have done.
By the way, Raven, you got some good education in Korea. King was what he was, but Malcolm, especially after his visit to Mecca, was one of the most visionary and inciteful intellectuals of that era. The cost to the rest of us of both men’s (probably state-sanctioned) murders is still being paid.
Some people say it’s Kucinich.
I catch your drift. ;0)
For sure. ;0)
My lady says hello to you.
I love Sam Seder. He’s awesome. Was Jane already on?
Yea, I know it well now but at the time. . .it was like a bolt of lighting. I guess Alex Hailey’s book really brought it home to me.
I’m not a Hillary fan (go Edwards!) but I don’t see this as racist. It WAS very clumsy. It’s fine to point out that MLK had a message of hope, and LBJ got results. The distinction she should be making is that MLK’s hope was not false (like Obama’s) and MLK was not a senator. And if he was a senator he would probably be taking a more active and practical leadership role in the Senate, instead of running around making airy fairy campaign promises about bipartisanship.
And what is this hope Obama is talking about anyway? Is it about civil rights? Or is it an egocentric, Liebermanesque “hope” that America can set a milestone in its race relations by electing HIM as its first black president? That’s a rather symbolic goal at best, and not quite as lofty as MLKs dream for all men women and children of America for peace and colorblind justice.
I watched the entire hour. I thought Hillary was great. She stopped Timmeh from doing the dirty on her. She was firm but fair. She was magnanimous and yet she defended herself with facts and perspective. I am tired of Obama distorting the facts to make the Clintons as racists. He is doing what the Bushes did to make people support his war. Either you were with him or you were against the USA. You were unpatriotic. Give me a break. Just because you are for Hillary does not mean one is a racist. And any argument to bolster one opinion of being for Clinton is interpreted as being racist. I don’t see Hillary attacking Obama supporters as sexist because they are not for Hillary. I do remember Obama refering to the Clintons as old politics, almost like Bush called Europe, Old Europe. He then stated that it was his time, in other words, the Clintons and anybody older than Obama, have seen their better days. He really attacked Hillary as being too old. Yea, that’s bringing people together. I see hypocrisy. I want Obama to tell me about what change he is going to be able to do and just how he is going to do it. I don’t want a “can’t we all just get along” policy as being anything but rhetoric. Appeasement with the Republicans is guaranteed to be a disaster. And just where have the Republicans compromised. They only believe in having the opposition capitulate. I don’t believe in fairy tales. To me, Obamas intention to get along with the right wing is naive. One has to understand power and keep the GOP at bay. It is sad but true. We need someone to stand their ground. I am all for compromise, but never compromise with people who try to destroy you and pretend you woulkd compromise with them. That has been the history of this administration and the republicans.
Don’t know about anybody else, but I’ve never been misty-eyed over LBJ. He indeed know about Tonkin, and kept that evil war going for years (claimed he didn’t know how to stop it–why he didn’t drop out sooner, you tell me). But on the other hand he DID bring in important civil rights legislation. So he is due credit for that. In the end, nobody is all good or all bad (I think we often have trouble with that idea).
Kiddo, if its not already been done I second Raven @107!
You would be a First Hubby with class, uh, not to mention classes.
“Cosgriff told Bush that he took it “deadly seriously” when an Iranian fleet of high-speed boats charged at and threatened to blow up a three-ship U.S. Navy convoy passing near Iranian waters. The Iranian naval forces vanished as the American ship commanders were preparing to open fire.
White House press secretary Dana Perino said that “all the military people remember what happened in the past, such as the USS Cole.” Seventeen American sailors were killed in a terrorist attack on the USS Cole in Yemen in October 2000.”
One Gulf of Tonkin coming up.
-G
If she or any one in her family needs a little help or a small loan I always there to help out. We have been friends for a few years and we talk often but not usually about politics. She is always the first one my list of neighbors with whom I share my home made soups and other good foods ( I just can’t help myself and just make way more than my wife and I can ever eat. I feel fortunate to know her as she has given new perspectives in life and family. To me she is just a sweet heart and I am glad to know her and share with her life’s joys and tribulations.
agggghhhh
The Nov election will be the “economy stupid” and the Dems better start getting ahead of the economic crash.
NYT
My lady is upstairs and reading these comments. She wishes for me to say hi to you. ;0)
Oh come on. It’s much better to rend the party in two over trumped up charges of racism and sexism.
All the better for a McCain/Keyes ticket.
-G
They were trying to save the JFK legacy. In essence the Civil Rights Movement and the JFK assassination in LBJ’s home state made a compelling case that he had to align himself to something that would indicate that HE wasn’t a party to impeding JFK’s (and Bobby Kennedy’s) efforts to bring America out of a society of de juris segregation.
OT I don’t know if it has been discussed here but!
(snip) The YELLOW ROSE PEACE BUS DESTROYED BY FIRE!
Jim Goodnow and his bus, the Yellow Rose, both have suffered a terrible tragedy.
http://www.yellowrosepeacebus.blogspot.com/
From viewing the photos it sure looks like arson to me…. Check out his blog!
I’m one crazy s. o. bitch. I want to bomb Iran. Which Demo Senators can I turn to for help to accomplish this mission?
Many years ago C-Span did a series on the LBJ WH tapes. There was one tape of LBJ and others directing the “Golf of Tonkin” show as it was happening.
Lahoma my heartiest greetings to you and thanks for joining us whenever you can.
David
It’s also, Who is going to get fucked the worst? Fed policy in the next few months is going to dertmine the answer.
Lowering interest rates will put it off long enough for the already-rich top 0.1% of Americans to pull their Hummers up to the door of the vault, throw a bunch more money bags in the back, and speed off tires squealing. And guess whose money that is?
Lowering interest rates to goose “growth” while increasing inflation is exactly the same thing as grabbing American workers, turning them upside down, shaking the little cash they have left out of their pockets, and handing it to the already-rich.
kiddo, our house says hello to your house.
Calling someone racist or anti-Semitic is used to bully. When you hit flaws in your candidate, instead of looking into the flaws you can criticize their critics by calling them racist. That will shut them up.
Personally, I see it for what it is and refuse to be bullied by name-calling which is what calling someone racist or anti-Semitic is.
If Obama is going to hide behind the “R” card on any criticism, I’m afraid he just isn’t up to the job. I don’t want Hillary to hide behind the “S” card for the same reason. Keep the “R”, “A” and “S” cards out of the debate.
I wish we were spending time debating their plans to get out of Irag and restoring the constitution instead of having these charges and counter charges suck all of the air out of the debate.
Unoftunately, it doesn’t look like that is gonna happen:
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes…..ama-in-sc/
Don’t know where TexBetsy has been lately. But if you’re lookin’, this is for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..38;search=
Right back at you.
L.
Reread my post. You misread it.
The “Edmund Pettis Bridge” changed public opinion over night about the Voting Right Act.
Adie. Are you someplace out in the ether?
Another Sign Edwards Will Throw Support to Obama by Jeralyn Merritt Jan. 13, 2008
How is she the one trying to cause division when not only has her statement (in addition to her husband’s) been distorted, but the Obama campaign is the one pushing the story?
And just b/c blogs are up in arms doesn’t make the story true. Again, that’s what happens when distortions are spread at the speed of the internets.
South Carolina may be the end for John Edwards if he comes in third. It seems, once again, he’s displaying his preference for Obama over Hillary. At a campaign event at a predominantly black Baptist church today Edwards said :
“I must say I was troubled recently to see a suggestion that real change that came not through the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King but through a Washington politician. I fundamentally disagree with that,” Edwards told more than 200 people gathered at a predominantly black Baptist church. ….”Those who believe that real change starts with Washington politicians have been in Washington too long and are living a fairy tale,” he said.
and,
“As someone who grew up in the segregated South, I feel an enormous amount of pride when I see the success that Senator Barack Obama is having in this campaign,” said Edwards. He the added, with a laugh: “Some days I wish he was having a little less success.”
Mrs. K8…
we’re missin’ you.
I think her comments on the war were fair. The fact that he is premising his campaign on a speech he made in 2002, but has not lived up to, is valid.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Sorry I didn’t make myself clear. I was agreeing and actually responding to the comment”LBJ dragged kicking and screaming”. I didn’t intend to confuse.
Two candidates sniping at each other- mostly “dust em back” pitches- neither really tryin to stick it in the ear. Seems like normal political banter to me.
I figure I’m gonna end up voting for one of these two come November and I gave up my opportunity to help either of em in the vote count by voting for Edwards- so I’m watching as a spectator as they try to gain an advantage.
Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I probably would not have known if not for you posting it here.
So Dana Perino reminds us all about what happened to the USS Cole…funny how she doesn’t mention how the US retaliated in incidents like the USS_Liberty_incident or the USS Stark
But now we are talking about “retaliating” against vessels that haven’t actually verbally threatened or fired upon the United States. In fact, we DID fire upon them in a similar, covered up, incident a week prior. Perhaps the incident was precipitated by that prior agression by the US. Is it not possible that the US fleet knew about the Iranian War Games going on (how could we not have known?), interceded vessels to disrupt their activities, and thus precipitate an “incident”? Wouldn’t it be far more sane for the US and Iranians to coordinate and communicate to one another movements within the Gulf?
Perino, ever the Pinocchio to Bush’s Gipetto, is suggesting that we should retaliate against the COUNTRY…and not merely truly threatening vessels.
I will not comment on HRC until tomorrow. But I can say we like Hillary and Obama equally.
Someone has got to shut this stuff off..it’s going to bite us in the ass in November.
I can comment on Mark Penn though. Fire him!!!
On the one hand you have Obama and Hillary. On the other hand you have Edwards and Dodd.
Is the first sentence a reference to derivative trading because I would agree nobody understands derivative? OTOH if I had the resources of the US government or a good investment bank I think I could come up with a good estimate for what the exposure of world markets is due to the subprime meltdown, how leveraged the money behind it was, and how long it will take to shake out. Of course, there are things that could be done regardless: Setting up a mandatory program offering conversions of ARMs to fixed rates, rescinding tax cuts to the wealthiest, being more circumspect about free trade, getting out of Iraq and removing those costs from the economy, etc.
I agree with you – especially about Obama’s retoric and not past experiences to back him up. He was an Illinois statement and just voted into the US senate in 2004. Does everyone know that? Also to Jane — Clinton’s point on MTP was only that Obama made a statement in 2002 that he was against a dumb war (Iraq), but in 2005 after he bacame a senator he answered a question that he isn’t sure how he would have VOTED back in Oct. 2002; and then proceeded to vote for funding war in 2005-06-07. She is simply saying he isn’t consistent with his thoughts about the war, but is now running totally on his 2002 statement when he didn’t even have the responisbility of the vote. But I agree with the majority on this issue. Too much is made on this Iraq war issue. We are in it and we are going to have to get out of it. Let’s get the Democrats into power and start to unravel Bush’s messes. Who, with sane minds. would even want that job?
This reminds me of how people pick and choose what they want that supports their willful beliefs. Much like the Bible. You pick and choose and throw out what doesn’t make your case. Demonstrated again how human logic and emotion are intertwined.
As do I which is to say I don’t like either very much, which is what maybe you are saying as well.
Giving the middle finger to one of our ships is also a sign of aggression and instant war, see?
Oh Hillary. Your politics are so exciting and new. I can barely take it.
Remember the last time the Republican president truly screwed the Constitutional system (Nixon) and in revulsion, we elected a candidate full of hope and purity (Carter)? The Republicans accepted that they had to sit out a turn but then roared back with twelve years of Reagan and Bush1. Carter, bless his heart, tried to work in a bipartisan manner. He and the country got rolled.
George Bush has done a Nixon in trumps and four years will hardly be enough time to muck out the Aegean stable he’s leaving. The Republicans will be ready to try to rerun their Carter pattern. It’s time for a hard-nosed street fighter to knock them back. I don’t know if any of our candidates are Machevellian enough to do it. But providing ammunition to the Pubbies by this silliness of race vs gender is stooopid.
I have promised my S.O. I won’t go negative on HRC until tommorrow. But that does not apply to Obama. President Obama? Gawd.
That’s a loophole :-)
Definitely the Edmund Pettus Bridge incident had a big impact…but it wasn’t the only act that made people aware of the enormous problems with segregation and institutional racism. The bombing of the 16th Street Church in Birmingham in 1963, the killings of the 3 Civil Rights Workers in 1964, Selma… I knew some that still argued that that Racism was a myth even after the assassination of MLK. There are some of these folks still out there today. If only people become conscious “overnight” was true.
I’m curious to hear why, kiddo.
Things are shaping up for us Demos to choose between which of the two frontrunners are the better of the least brightest and best. I can hardly wait for November.
I like “Uncommitted” for Michigan. Interesting Hillary Girl left her name on the ballot there. What was the purpose of that considering that DNC took away Michigan’s delegates?
Black racism sucks. It is there, it is virulent, and it is a third rail. No one can play the victim like a black racist, not even a Republican, but no one can really do anything about it. Bill Clinton was allowed a Sista Soulja moment, but Hillary Clinton will not be. Obama will attack via victimization on a racist platform, and no one will get away with pulling a “Sista Soulja moment” on him.
I intensely dislike Obama right now, which makes me sick to my stomach because I want to like all the Democratic candidates. I don’t know if I can vote for him and his blue dog posse. Expatriation sounds better and better all the time.
Are you wondering why I like Obama as much as I do?
Yes, wondering what your opinon of Obama is.
LHP has an introduction to an author ready for us upstairs!
Thanks for this TSF. This has been in the back of my mind.
You are right..things usually don’t happen in isolation, but I remember watching the news film on March 6 ‘66 and seeing the change in public opinion that resulted.
Another Sign Edwards Will Throw Support to Obama by Jeralyn Merritt Jan. 13, 2008
I read and reread this post and still don’t see where Edwards will throw his support Obama’s way. Edwards has delegates he can negotiate. I think SC is full of itself. Nevada has to put in its two cents. There are bigger states coming down the road and I don’t think they want to be told they can’t select a candidate but must take what Iowa, NH and SC hands them.
I’m still going with Edwards. So are many others. To hell with the media.
Isn’t there some sort of email by the Obama campaign that specifically said that his supporters should use these Clinton statements to imply that the Clinton’s are using racial politics? I heard that someone says that just such an email was leaked to the WashPo. So this isn’t merely people reacting to Clinton statements it’s a bit scripted.
What the Clinton surrogates (or supposed surrogates) are doing is a whole ‘nother thing…that BET comment is particularly nasty and stupid…as if Obama was supposed to be out changing the world when he was a teenager. That’s about as intelligible as saying that Bill Clinton wasn’t inhaling on the day of Martin Luther King’s assassination. It’s bulldada spin.
lower down on the Yellow Rose sight they’ve got video of McCain’s bus preventing them from passing by straddling the middle of the two lanes and then later when they are passing, moving over into the Yellow Rose’s lane. Very dangerous and disgusting.
Before you depart, you should realize that Obama has a huge posse that are way the hell to the left of and can’t stand (in the Congress to be sure) the weak, meaningless Bush supporting stances of the Blue Dog Democrats.
Keep your eyes open for what the Democrats in Congress do with S. 2248 a turkey of a bill, which besides immunity for Telcos/Comcos has the entire remainder ceding primacy for what constitute’s illegal wiretapping to Mukasey DOJ and McConnell DNI (although they are only going to be around for a year longer).
I’m with you Quakergirl. the other two just do nothing for me, not that either is a bad candidate but Edwards I feel I can trust to stand up for the progressive that I hold dear. It has nothing to do with the sniping between Hillary and the Obama camps!
I don’t think so. I haven’t seen it. I think by now, after the last few weeks, that all the campaigns have pretty tight control over what gets emailed by anyone who officially works for them, but you’re talking about a lot of people for whichever candidate, so it’s hard to be sure.
I can tell you that the highest ranked black democrat, Representative in Congress has taken conspicuous issue with what has come from Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton’s mouth.
Representative James E. Clyburn of South Carolina, says he may abandon his neutral stance in his state’s primary, based in part on comments by Senator .
John Edwards has intimated he may throw his support to Obama based on comments from the mouth of Hillary Clinton:
Another Sign Edwards Will Throw Support to Obama by Jeralyn Merritt
Just goes to show oyu these assholes don’t give a fuck and will do anything to hamper honest war protesters. Where the fuck is a cop when you need one. They should forward this video to the authorities in New Hampshire. Most cops in New Hampshire are pretty straight shooting, I have met a few when living in Maine and driving 5k + miles a month in those two states.
i’m starting to have a keen appreciation for Glenzilla’s view of the primary process
OTOH…..
really good author upstairs in the book salon
PS: agree with nahant at 181.
And if burning a political protest bus isn’t domestic terrorism, I don’t know what is.
Funny, I’m still waiting for the presser with FBI and the AG, outraged over this violent attack on America’s most basic freedoms.
Good thing I’m not holding my breath.
Would this be the “Present” posse?
Oops – sorry – that one’s run by Obama’s neighbor.
you would already have turned blue and expired! RIP
Impeach this administration and you know the rest. So far not mush MSM mention fo the push for Impeachment… fucking dam!
Karl Rove and Newt Gingrich have recently been making public statements complimentary to Hillary. What’s up with that, anybody?
“Between the Saturday debate and the misty eyed comments on Monday, Hillary made some assertions that are worthy of push back. Woven into her “I’ve been doing this for 35 years” comments are the Clintons sense of entitlement, and the conceit that they irreplaceable, and the indispensable agents of change.”
Newt and Karl are singing Hillary’s praises…yeah, “indispensable agents of change.” Good one.
I’d be one of hundreds of thousands of themthem–that’s for damn sure Kirky.
And as to your snarky swipe at TonyRezco clinging to the hope it has a scintilla impact on Obama’s wins–be sure and contact Fitzie with whatever you think you have.
*big g*
If so, LOL, that’s great to hear. She’s ideologically close to them in a lot of areas.
When the Repubs use surrogates to attack each other, they use things like the New Republic and the liberal blogsphere echo-chamber.
Actually his next door neighbor is a parcel of land currently owned by attorney Michael Sreenan. It hasn’t been built on or developed as yet. I think you are confusing the piece of land with Tony Rezco whose wife sold the land next door to Obama’s back in December 2006. It’s up for sale, and because Obama has land adjacent, it’s value has gone up exponentially. You can bid on it. Obama took care of doing the licensing for the wrought iron fence.
Information that you must have, that no one else has, would be welcome I’m sure at the Northern District of Illinois.
Here’s your contact info:
Contact: Randall Samborn, Assistant US Attorney, Public Information Officer
Phone: (312) 353-5318, Fax: (312) 353-1842, Cell/Pager: (312) 613-6700
Keep us posted on your impact.
Jon Stewart and KO have done enough parodies of Faux News to illustrate that emails came from Rove as to what they want,and now they come from Gillespie’s office to different mags and media outlets and their cadre of wacky talking heads.
You think John Edwards and the highest ranking member of Congress who is black who have strongly reacted to the recent statements by Hillary and her husband she is relying on to bring in votes have distorted what they saw and heard her say them?
Both have responded angrily to the statements by the Clintons, and I think South Carolina isn’t too far away on the “rush to be first–me first mommy” primary calendar.
What I hear her saying is that Obama should not be allowed to get away with claiming their is a difference in their voting record regarding the war in Iraq. He claims to be ‘anti-war’ while painting her ‘pro-war’ … His voting record would suggest he holds the same position as Clinton on the war. And I don’t believe she cast a ‘pro-war’ vote.
Regarding civil rights comments made by Clinton, and suggestions by some of Obama’s supporters that they were racist, I think Crooks and Liars posted an excellent response to why this is false. John posted a link to “The Power and the Inspiration” which says it all. It makes a case in support of Clinton’s comments.
BAC
Which takes us right back to the 2004 race and John Kerry’s miserable position on the war. Progressives & Liberals hated it because they supported the anti-war position of Howard Dean.
Here we go again, unless people realize their anti-war position is only supported by John Edwards.
John Edwards — Leadership…out of Iraq
Some say they were from America.
I think these 2 are baiting each other and hoping one of them makes a mistake…
And, will one of them please promise to explain to Dana what that was about.