I write fairly frequently about health care policy. And almost every time I do, someone crawls out of the woodwork and says something similar to this:
I worked hard for my health insurance. I don’t see why someone who didn’t work hard, save, and prioritize paying for health insurance, should get as good a health care as I do.
Let’s look at this. We’ll leave aside the assumption that people who don’t have health insurance aren’t hard workers, it’s bullshit, but let’s grant it. Let’s say it’s true. Then lets parse the morality of this statement. Let’s re-state it more clearly:
Lazy people don’t deserve good and timely health care. That means that some of them will die or suffer pain, nausea or debilitation that could otherwise be stopped, but since they’re lazy they deserve to die or suffer for their laziness.
Let’s take this one step further. It is a fact that the US pays about 50% more per capita for health care than Canada. On all major metrics except for one the Canadian system performs as well or better than the US one. What is that metric?
Non-essential surgery waiting times.
Now sometimes this doesn’t mean surgery that you sure as hell wouldn’t like to have fast, but it does mean surgery that isn’t actually needed to save your life. Since the other side loves to deal in anecdotes, I’ll deal one right here. In ‘93 when doctors decided I needed surgery to save my life and needed it right now, they mobilized a surgical team on Sunday at 10pm and performed surgery on the spot – saving my life. The Canadian system came through for me.
But let’s step back. Non-essential surgery waiting times. That’s what you pay 50% more for.
Not so that the 40 million odd people who aren’t insured are insured and get health care when they need it. Not for a national drug plan (which if you reduced health costs by 1/3 and then plowed the savings into a drug plan along with smacking the drug companies around a bit, would probably mean prescription drugs for everyone who needed them), but waiting times for non-essential surgery. That’s what your money has produced.
And I've compared to a system that isn't the best. The US could choose a system like Germany's and France's that don't even do worse than the US on optional surgery, still cost way less and still beat or match the US on every metric.
So here’s the choice.
You can have the current system. Benefit: reduced waiting times for non-essential surgery, only if you choose a suboptimal plan.
Or you can have a single payer system where care is still provided by private doctors and hospitals and where patients have more choice than under the HMO’s that are taking over the US medical scene. Everyone will be insured and every health metric will be as good or better except waiting times for non-essential surgery. Cost: 1/3 less than you’re currently paying.
Bonus: you could take that 1/3, and since drug costs currently come in at less than 10% of total health care costs, you could give everyone in the entire country a prescription drug plan and still have money left over.
Bonus #2: 50% reduction in the bankruptcy rate, since that's how many bankruptcies are caused by health care costs, mostly of people who had insurance and thought they were covered.
The losers – some people with non life threatening ailments that would benefit from surgery. I don’t want to underestimate this, some people will suffer from this and it will be real suffering – the question is whether it’s less suffering than the 40 odd million people who are currently uninsured are now experiencing. And whether it’d be more than offset by, say, a prescription drug plan?
In addition private insurers would go out of business along with their huge administrative margins, sometimes approaching 30 or 40% compared with the consistent under 5% for Medicare. That’s a lot of administrative overhead and a lot of jobs – but the people who are pumping up private insurance sure aren’t the people who cry when so-called “creative destruction” “frees” up resources from other industries.
Health care is a moral issue and a pragmatic one. Those who support the current system support a profoundly immoral system which is causing people to die and suffer needlessly and costs more than the completely obvious alternative. They almost certainly do it out of some misguided belief that a bad result from the private sector is morally preferable to a good result from the public sector – or perhaps they do it because they’re at the trough and benefiting.
But it is a moral issue and being against single payer healthcare says something about the person with that belief. And it isn’t anything good (and certainly isn’t anything Christian, but I’ll leave that to those Christians who remember that Jesus cared for the poor to remind people of.)
So choose whether you support single payer health care. But remember that in making that choice you are making a profound statement about what you consider important – free market ideology or saving lives and pain – and that single payor healthcare has been proven to actually be cheaper than the current system. Immoral and impractical - all in one.
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Ian! You da’ man!
I wish someone would define “increased waiting time” for non-essential surgery.
I have had non-essential surgery (knee replacements). I had to wait two months to get scheduled into an OR. This did not strike me as a problem. I live in the US, and I have good health insurance. My PCP is scheduled three months out on routine physicals. Specialist? Two to three months for an appointment.
So how much longer would I have to wait for appointments, if we had a single-payer system?
Both, and. Ian, do you have links to some primary sources that document the factual claims you make about the relative costs and benefits of different health care payment systems? (Not because I doubt your claims, but because such sources would be really useful in debunking wingnut assery.)
Oh, lest I forget: ZEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDDDD!!!!!!!!!!
You can find basic ones here.
Great article! It always amazes me that anyone can any longer argue against major reform to the health care system. It’s gotten to the point that we are hearing one horror story after another of insurance companies cutting people off when they get sick, not allowing critical care because it costs too much, or jacking up premiums by huge amounts for no reason.
As a self-employed person who has had to cope with affording insurance, I’ve been more than ready for reform for a long time. Every year, it seems, my insurance costs go up by $50-$100 a month, even though I’m very healthy and seldom need more than my yearly exams. It’s gotten to the point where I feel like I’m making a second mortgage payment every month.
Health care should not be run this way. It is not a privilege for the rich. It is a necessity for everyone. I would liken it to public utilities. Everyone should get needed care at a reasonable price. There should be no middle man hoarding the care and doubling the cost. This issue has been demagogued to death. If we are very lucky and elect a democratic president, we may finally be able to get a change.
Hey, all those breasts do need some assistance, and heaven forbid, liposuction is seriously needed…
Not sure what knee replacement is running at. Actually times have been improving, but probably 4 to 6 months, depending on the province (some have much lower or longer times). You would get a PCP appointment much faster (I can’t remember it ever taking more than a week, and a couple days isn’t that hard if it’s urgent). Specialists vary a lot depending on where you live and what the specialty is.
Ian
You have to understand the psychology behind capitalism. Health care is no different from welfare (those lazy bastards deserve to starve) or any inequality of public services. (Poor communities with less fire fighting equipment deserve to have their homes burn)
The insanity runs across the board. I’m reading “The Meat You Eat”, a condemnation of agribusiness with its feed lots and concentrated shit contaminating everything for miles. Attempts to change our truly foolish agricultural practices are met with controlled administrative agencies and legislators fearful of antagonizing donors. These people contaminate their drinking water as well as ours because they refuse to believe we drink from the same spigot. The guy without sympathy for the uninsured has a need to feel superior. That need trumps everything else.
Beautiful! Thanks.
I was there but knew you wanted the zed *g*
Besides the basic right people should have to medical care, I worry about people running around with communicable diseases. We should all want a healthy population. Bacteria and viruses don’t care what’s in your wallet.
Combining the last thread & this, there’s plenty of medical treatment that is not needed. The only way to figure that out is through large sample testing. The sort of thing that NIH ran on hormone replacement therapy (HRT), once a woman got in charge of NIH, that found that HRT killed, not cured. But the “profession” of medicine will never do such studies; not in their financial interest. It’s a classic role for govt.
However, even countries that have single payer systems are not known for outcomes research. Do you know why, Ian?
You are so kind!
I am off for a while to play some Yahtzee with the other human occupant of my house. See y’all later.
How much savings would we get if we went with the French System? Also how many insurance jobs would be lost in America if we went with the French system?
We have wait times now. I waited 5 months for a myomectomy last year — one fibroid, 10 lbs and growing. Not necessary? I don’t think so! Additionally, the insurance claim was initially denied due to ‘preexisting conditions’ which required faxing previous health plan IDs, Cobra letters, etc. multiple times because they got lost after I was reassured both times that they were received. Of course, there was no physical address where I could send a registered letter…
by effectively reapportioning the money we spend on healthcare, wouldn’t there be job increases in actual patient care workers? Or perhaps better phrased, workers who actually care for patients?
Don’t we research new drugs just to renew patents on existing drugs so the drug companies can rake in bigger profits?
Bill Gates is doing the research for a new Malaria drug. Our drug companies only research drugs for populations that can pay.
80% of pharma “research” is on “me-too” drugs which are the smallest patentable difference away from a blockbuster. (Think Viagra-Cialis.) And what you say goes on too, new applications for old drugs to extend patents. Don’t have quantification of that.
Good point your ideas need to be factored in. Sure we might lose some insurance jobs but we would make up for it in Nurses and Doctor jobs.
I would much rather pay for a Dr to cure me than pay an HMO to say that my claim is denied.
There is a preponderance of programs on teevee and radio that have brainwashed people into thinking the way you describe - Limbaugh, Hannity, OReilly, Boortz, Beck and many dozens of others. People have become so stupid that they simply repeat what they hear from such right-wing assclowns. Just today a nurse told me that Edwards was the worst of all the candidates b/c he’s a trial lawyer. She went on to discuss all the fakers and liars who take advantage of lawsuits. Wonder where she heard all this.
BTW, it didn’t take long for her to confess that she would indeed hire a trial lawyer herself if she were hit by a drunk driver and lost a leg.
The thing is, though, that lady went on her merry way and home to her assh*le husband (a reinforcer) believing the same stupid shit she did before. There is simply an overwhelming force of ignorance and rw talking points to fight against one person at a time. We need way more teevee and radio shows.
Once you get rid of the excess costs in medical care, you get what is referred to as an efficiency gain for the economy, i.e., you are allocatiing existing resources more efficiently, so economy can produce more. How that efficiency gain is distributed over all the goods & services the economy produces depends on supply & demand. Some, no doubt, would occur in a reallocation of jobs within the medical industry.
.
a good example of that is the so subtly named nexium, prilosec was the prelude.
80% to change Viagra into Cialis? When we live in a country where Homeland Security has to track people down because they were on a flight with a drug resistant TB patient.
When are we going to research a cure for TB? Or all the other things that can kill us and are spread fast?
Gooder service (Good or service) - Dubya
18,000 people die each year from lack of health care in California alone.
If we factor the amounts from each state that this particular figure represents and multiply it by eight years(length of time Bush admin will be around) then you get close to a million dead people.
I am not a statistics person. Maybe someone who is can come up with the real figure.
It looks like Little Boots is responsible for killing equal amounts of Americans and Iraqis.
Good points all. If for no other reason, we need universal health care to deal with the various ways our food and environmental safety net has disappeared as a result.
A pet peeve: please call it medical care, not health care. Health is related to genes & lifestyle, mostly, and very little to medical care. And, as the prior thread showed, medical treatment can reduce health.
You would think that single payer systems would have different financial incentives. I am curious to know the difference.
My bad. Good point. Medical care is much more specific — there are also plenty of alternatives to our medical care system that aren’t included in this discussion either.
All the candidates have turned 180 degrees from single payer plans. They proscribe universal health care - that is - they intend to force people as individuals and as employers to buy health insurance coverage from existing rip-off insurance companies. The only proponent of single payer was Kucinich and he’s out. Keep in mind that health insurance companies do not provide complete health care coverage by a long shot. You can still be bankrupted with health insurance.
You’re right, but I don’t know what they are & haven’t come across any studies. Don’t think Ian is here, but perhaps he has a reference.
All too true. I think of the Clinton/Obama/Edwards plans as similar to requiring car insurance — with all of the same pitfalls. Compliance, the ‘poor’ plans vs. the Cadillac plans, etc. Not single payer by a long shot. At least Edwards includes Medicare for all as an option — not sure what the limits are on eligibility with the ‘for all’ part.
ian your piece is a great one but the wing nuts don’t understand the stats and the neo fascists ignore the facts
I have th answer that shuts everyone down, it simplifies the real issue for the wing nuts to the point they have to agree and it takes away every arguement a fascist can make, it goes like so;
” a bussiness or industry can’t ask you or me to pay their bills, they have to pay their own heatig bills, their own electric bills and their own rent, I don’t want to give profitable corporations welfare.
the health of their workforce is their expense, without keeping their workforce healthy they have to train and retrain their assets.
It’s not my expense for a workforce to keep their workforce healthy it’s theirs, every single corporation that employs anyone needs to pay their own bill, they better not ask me to pay for it and to make sure their laborers have it they better include it as part of their salary
I DON’T WANT TO PAY THEIR BILLS
NO WELFARE TO PROFITABLE CORPORATIONS”
shuts them down every single time, they do not have an answer and in most cases agree with this line of reasoning
This was discussed a while ago here. All that crap that comes in from China that is poisoning American consumers does not get sent to the EU states. The EU has banned products from entering that contain known toxins. Not US. You are on your own - free market - you’re screwed. The EU has a stake in the health of it’s citizens. With single payer - they don’t want their citizens getting sick - it costs the government money.
Insurance is the ultimate moral hazard business. They make more profits by denying claims, so the economic incentives are outright perverse.
Raises hand. You certainly can. A serious illness is all it takes. All of those little 10% and 20% bits that they don’t cover add up into huge sums in very short order. I had the best Health Plan that my Dot Com offered.
Long Term Disability Insurers like to mess with highly paid professionals too. There have been a number of expose’s done on some of the Companies, like the one I had, for instance. Google Unum-Provident and you will see what I mean.
Unhinged capitalism kills.
The person with Medical Care who does not want to pay for somebody else’s Medical Care must live in a bubble. After all unless he has no contact with anyone who doesn’t have Medical Care his plan won’t work.
After all how many low wage people who slaughter his meat, cook and serve it to him, cut his lawn, paint his house watch his kids at daycare etc have Medical Care?
We live in a world of antibody resistant disease and a country where many sick people can’t afford to take a day off work or afford to pay a Doctor.
So the go to work anyway and infect those people with Medical Insurance.
What Ian is talking about will start to bite hard in the near future:
1. You have all those baby boomers with crap pensions.
2. Elderly people tend to need more medical care.
Add in things like declining standards in food quality, (and food hygiene) couple it with not terribly good water supplies, and you have a truly deadly brew.
@ marymccurnin January 12th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
No. Dead is dead true enough and Irak and California are about the same size but there the comparison ends.
To the best of my knowledge and belief the USA has not littered California with depleted uranium, bombed the shit out of the place, deliberately bombed its water treatment plants to bits, sponsored death squads, bombed some of its hospitals, deliberately starved it of desperately needed medicines, bombed its major cities, and created a society which now has 5 million orphans.
I will add that the habit increasingly frequently engaged in by some Americans of trying to equate the rape of Irak to their own entirely avoidable political, economic, and social problems is quite frankly — contemptible.
Oops:
GorillasGuides January 12th, 2008 at 5:03 pm = dubhaltach.
Regarding wait times in Canada and U.S. — There is a bit of apples and oranges going on here as well.
While it may take 2 months, for example, for a surgeon to schedule a procedure in Canada while it takes only one month in the U.S., that doesn’t mean it is faster in the U.S.
In the U.S., insurance companies will send you to a mandatory 2d opinion with another physician (wait for appt) and that physician needs to file paperwork as well. Then you need your physician file medical necessity forms. If you’re lucky, you do not need to appeal a pre-denial - I have they take a long time. Frequently, you are required to attempt a less expensive conservative treatment and have another physician document that it is not likely as effective as the surgery you really need (as if your physician did not know that in the first place). Ultimately, when you are PERMITTED to schedule the surgery, the U.S. surgeon will see you in 6 weeks instead of 2-3 months in Canada.
The catch, you’ve spent 3-4 months with second opinions, pre-authorizations and medical necessity appointments before your U.S. insurance company ALLOWS you to schedule that lightening fast six-week-wait to have surgery. So what if there is a longer wait for surgery in Canada, how long are Canadians forced by their expensive insurance plans to wait before they are allowed to schedule their surgeries?
Wait times, to be truly comparative, need to be timed from date of diagnosis, not date of scheduling surgery or procedure.
Excellent diary Ian, thanks!
sláinte,
cl
It’s crazy — people with medical care already pay for someone else’s medical care, whether they are covered or not. The incentive to get people to the doctor before they need to go to the emergency room — besides common decency and better overall health — is that it improves efficiency and provides better medical care for all comers.
There are tons and tons of wing-nuts that don’t have health care either. They are living paycheck to paycheck and some are on welfare. They think that if the US offers universal health care, they will lose even more of what little money they have after taxes and won’t be able to eat or pay rent or mortgages. That is where the major disconnect is. Instead, they become catastrophically ill and lose everything. It is truly bass ackwards.
Countries whose tax monies go to pay for great health care for everyone are not off waging wars all over the world with their tax money either.
They have a point with mandatory health insurance. Unfortunately years of ’socialized medicine’ propaganda shuts the ears of decent people who would otherwise understand the value of single payer. Like what was said earlier — you can lose everything even with coverage.
I only recently came to realize that there is a program in social security that if you have paid into social security and you become disabled, you can have your health care paid for even if you are quite young. I don’t know what the level of pay-in is, but I never even knew it existed at all.
Well, it looks like the rest of the planet is just as excited about getting rid of George Bush as we are:
Global ‘enthusiasm’ for Bush’s departure.
The 2008 U.S. elections are attracting an “eager” audience worldwide. This past week, for example, major British newspapers “devoted more than 87 pages to news of the U.S. primaries, including 22 front-page stories.” Much of the enthusiasm, according to the Washington Post, is for the end of the Bush presidency:
And it the Left’s failure to reach these folks and persuade them to, once and for all, vote in their own best interests.
We bad.
Exactly. “Socialized Medicine”….O.M.G….I’d rather be destitute or dead than a commi-pinko…
Stupid boneheads.
I had a GREAT conversation with a coupld of people who thought they were “libertarians”
hehe…after the conversation they abandoned their point of view, I had an epiphame I’d like to share;
“just about all corporate restraint was brought on by the industry themselves!
they caused issues the rest of us had to pay for, their bussiness model presented a negative return for America and their ocnduct had to be restrained.
corporate restraint forces indsutry to pay their own bill when they demonstrate they won’t on their own, , it keeps them from rendering our country a wasteland it’s SUPPOSED to get them to pay for the havoc they create
it’s purpose is to make sure they invest back into the economy that granted them the right to turn a profit in the first place, it insures they invest into the future, inot technology, and it forces them to be responsible tools and champions of our society, the very same society that creates only reason they make any profit at all”
here’s a keeper I came up with and anyone can use it whenever you want
“regulaions are there to solve issues industry brought on themselves”
simple examples, they were turning our air yellow, the industry refused to clean up their crap, we had to force them to cleaning their crap out of my air and we had to force them to pay their own clean up expense
they were turning our water into mud, they refused to clean up that crap, we had to force them into cleaning their crap from my kids water.
the politicians these corporatists bought actually want to let them get away with dumping their crap anywhere they want and they are actually propose such REDICULOUS “initiatives” to eliminate those regulations that keeps them from doing it!…they are insane
the market does NOT make corrections on behalf of society NOR is it their responsibility, nor will I allow them to monitor themselves, their responsibility is turning profit, ours is protecting our children
here’s another simple example that drives the point home to those that have been hypnotized by the corporate propaganda machine, let’s look at “the lemon law”
manufacturers were selling products that would not do what they promised they would do, they knew how to fix the product and they refused
we had to regulate them into doing what they promised they would do, thus the lemon law, bing, positive restraint
this is simple stuff, regulations are almost always because the industry brought them on themseelves and most of the time there is far too little corporate restraint
Love it!
What a crock of shit. I also meant that a million Americans not just californians have died. If you think that these people had control over their health care problems then you are behaving like a neocon. I was not saying that the United States has the same problems that Iraq has. I AM saying that millions in this country every year have no health care. And I am laying the blame for the health care problems and the Iraqi problems at the feet of this administration. I know this because of personal experience and being an advocate for health care for all.
nov 2001 diagnosed with breast cancer
dec 2001 husband almost dies from intestinal bleed
march 2002 radiation for b c
refi home to help pay bills
feb 2003 bankruptcy due to medical bills
march 2003 husband had open heart surgery
refi home to help pay bills
june 2003 b c returns, mastectomy
july 2003 emergency surgery for wound issues
march 2004 foot surgery
refi home to help pay bills
refi home to help pay bills
now no equity left
no insurance for husband (self employed) cause business had not recovered
yet. And my husband is chronically ill.
I am on medi-cal.
Don’t think it can’t happen to you. And, if you are a conservative, pray it doesn’t happen to you cause your conservative friends will say it is your fault.
The wing-nuts don’t realize that their “party of fiscal responsibility” is what has stolen their hard-earned tax money, sent the country into bankruptcy, and is the very reason they are maxed out on credit…spending the money they don’t have…living in houses they don’t own.
There are words for it….The American Nightmare….there is the mugger and there is the one who gets mugged…also known as the victim.
They just keep getting mugged and like Pavlov’s dog come back for more the minute their creepy corporate thieves say words like terra, and socialized medicine, and Iraq attacked us on 9/11….they even send their kids off to die for these schmucks….
Boneheads.
Mary, so sorry about all of your medical issues. Then to add the financial problems to it is just barbarian. I remember some photos you shared of you and your husband at Pismo? Beach not too long ago. Would never have guess all you have been through.
guessed
It was Inverness. You were prolly confusing us with the Bugs Bunny family. We are doing much better. If we could just get out of the economic doldrums we would be less nutty.
(((maryMcC & Mr.maryMcC)))
No. Dead is dead true enough and Irak and California are about the same size but there the comparison ends.
To the best of my knowledge and belief the USA has not littered California with depleted uranium, bombed the shit out of the place, deliberately bombed its water treatment plants to bits, sponsored death squads, bombed some of its hospitals, deliberately starved it of desperately needed medicines, bombed its major cities, and created a society which now has 5 million orphans.
I will add that the habit increasingly frequently engaged in by some Americans of trying to equate the rape of Irak to their own entirely avoidable political, economic, and social problems is quite frankly — contemptible.
Well said, Du!
Here’s where I think accomplishing this gets hard. Krugman argues for universal coverage and says frankly there will be higher taxes to pay for it as well as somewhat less choice, longer wait times for elective surgery, for example. If 85% are covered now and through an employer-provided, non-taxed benefit, you have to convince the majority this is worth it, that they will see the savings and not see a real dimunition in their coverage. It’s all very well and good to argue it’s the right thing to do, but how the legislation gets derailed is when individual interests are appealed to by drug and insurance companies.
Those savings Ian describes are not likely to be passed on to the workers in the form of higher salaries (certain strong unions excepted, but since most workers aren’t unionized, that won’t make much difference.) So who pockets the savings? Not the employees, necessarily, who in turn will also see higher taxes (unless we rearrange priorities to stop funding useless wars) and face limits on choice.
And let me add this–racism is alive and well. If the uninsured are more likely minority, expect to hear “welfare”, a code word for handouts to people of color. The European and Canadian systems were put into place long before their populations diversified. I have to wonder if there’d be as much enthusiasm if they were trying to do this fresh today.
I’m not arguing against giving everyone access to medical care–I support the notion fully. But it’s important to anticipate the roadblocks.
I was talking to a woman who had been screwed by her insurance co. She was telling me how great it was when she lived in England and her daughter was born two month premature..6 months in the hospital, best care, didn’t cost her anything, etc. Says I “That an example of why we need a single payer system”..She says “I don’t want socialized medicine..blah..blah” I gave up.
Just a little side query since you are here…What is up with this Operation Phantom Phoenix in Iraq…have you heard anything about it that we don’t know…like what were the targets, etc. Just asking.
Then you should have said that. I’d consider that figure to be probably on the low side myself and I haven’t even touched upon reduced life expectancy and reduced quality of life.
Nor do I accept that Bush is to blame for everything. You give the man far too much credit. Since Goldwater’s time the American right have been trying to instate rampant authoritarian capitalism and complacent Americans have let them frame the terms of the debate and to get away with their “reforms” I have considerable sympathy for people who are suffering - but their were lots of (ignored) warnings.
Not to put too fine a point on it they were and still are let get away with it.
Either Americans are citizens or they are content to be subjects. Mostly they seem content to be subjects. That leads to considerable individual hardship and suffering inlcuding amongst those such as yourself who have tried to provide for themselves - and yet suffer the results you have detailed.
As to your attemtped ad-hominem about my politics — You obviously haven’t been around very long because if you had been you’d know that my politics are very left-wing. You’d also know that I live in a country (Denmark) with excellent public health and welfare systems, and that I consider the money I pay every month for those systems to be very well spent.
Finally I stand over my remarks about invidious comparisons.
you’re right, Dru
Targets are everyone opposed to Maliki’s allies. That gives you a lovely big range running from the Islamic State of Irak fighters to Mahdi militia to (and isn’t it amazing how fast this has happenened - not) “rogue” concerned citizens fighters. Very short answer because I don’t want to hijack Ian’s thread.
[And yes you did say it was o/t :-) ]
I use a variation of your medical/financial story as an example of why most of us are one serious illness away from disaster. The real estate situation may have change the numbers but until recently IIRC 50% of bankruptcy filings were do to medical bills and of those 80% has insurance.
The latest court case out of CA about insurance co’s identifying “problem” policies, collecting the premiums for as long as the person was healthy and the denying the claim; what scum.
It is as I thought. Thanks.
Great campaign slogan for democrats: Are you a subject or are you a citizen?
Ian: Ireland’s businesses boomed after they instituted universal health care as they were relieved of that burden. My friend has husband and four children. He is Independent Contractor and pays $1,200.00 a month for medical coverage… toddler to 12. No dental in this package I believe. she can’t sleep for the worry if he loes his $50K income as a contractor with the housing recession. Any thoughts on her situation and Then all your little mom/pop resturants that have uncovered employees that want to go to the big chains for a benefit package. These are reasons for single payer medical.
Excellent..short and sweet…and ’tis the truth.
Great post and links to PysioProf up at #3 or 4 or something like that. For once, in this discussion, when Rudy or any of them say “America has the best health care sytem in the world;” whoever it is from our side gotta say “Bullshit!!” I think people are beginning to wake up on that the more they deal with scumbag insurance companies.
I know that what has been done in Iraq is beyond horror. I am not trying in anyway to minimize it. I actively work to stop the insanity that this country has inflicted on the Iraqis. Just as I work to help solve the health care crisis here.
I am 58 years old and have been opposed the conservative crap that has been done in my name since I was 20.
The assholes controlling this government would inflict the same pain on Americans if they thought they could make the same kinds of profits. New Orleans comes to mind.
I guess I got angry cause what happened to my family and many people I know was not something we could control. Perhaps I misunderstood but I felt that you were saying that. As I travel throughout California and talk to people about their health care problems I have heard stories much worse than mine. Stories of death without reason. I cannot imagine what it is like to live and die in Iraq now that this government of mine has brought it democracy.
$14,400 med + auto + home + life = ~ 1/2 his income for insurance..it’s insane
Get me on this subject and you have a firey Quaker on your hands filled with “righteous anger”.
So did and do I! All my life I paid for health insurance for me and my family. We are still healthcare poor. Every year the monthly payments go up, the co-pay increase by 50%, services that were included now have a large co-pay (like I have a choice) and none of this includes dental and eyes are sort of covered.
The only reason someone thinks they are covered is because they haven’t met the disease that’s absent in their policy or has be dropped. But one day, their luck runs out and the piper comes after them as well.
My Mom paid health insurance all her life. She stopped working at age 72. In her late eighties when she came down with Alzheimer’s, guess what wasn’t there. When she had to receive round-the-clock nursing her final six months, she had to agree to indigent status to qualify for care. The senior care center loved her social security check (a nice high one) and they got it all.
Yeah! Tell me about health insurance. I’ve got a real life story and many more for you. Shame on America. Shame. Shame. Pox be on the house of healthcare!
Dru,
Also, I have had a very bad temper lately. I am a grouch soemtimes and it gets me into trouble. Sorry.
Well said!!
And I would like to add, those are after tax dollars. You have to earn twice that to net the 14K.
AFAIK, Dental care is not included in the Canadian Provincial Health System. Dental care is expensive in Canada in comparison to US costs. Preventive dental maintenance (of which I ascribe) regular flossing and good luck is the key to good teeth. Take advantage of our cheap dental care in the US before you move to Canada. We may die of a thousand other ailments (and suffer bankruptcy due to health insurance issues) in the USA, but at least our teeth are bright.
I’ve posted this once before but will again. When I was practicing in NJ, there was one case I dusted off alot in insurance coverage case because of this language (I’m quoting it from another case):
the no-win scenario described by Judge Baime in Owens-Illinois, Inc., v United Ins. Co., 264 N.J. Super. 460, 491 (App. Div. 1993), as “the unholy mantra” of “we collect premiums; we do not pay claims.”
I never forgot that one. Love it. It’s the truth: Their job is to collect premiums; not pay claims. They suck.
I think with all the crap that has happened, your are F***ing amazing. (I would do the huggie thingies but that’s no me)
Thanks Steve-AR.
Gots to go make groceries now. (NOLA term)
Here’s what Pelosi has to say on medical care.
“
It is a disgrace that there are 46.6 million Americans without health insurance. In July, Congress is considering legislation that takes steps to address this problem—funding several initiatives that would provide access to health care for more than 2 million uninsured Americans. The legislation provides $200 million, or 10 percent more than 2007 and the President’s request for community health centers, enabling these centers to serve an additional 1 million uninsured Americans. It also provides $75 million for a new initiative of state health access grants—providing start-up grants to states that are ready with plans to expand health care coverage to targeted groups. It also includes $50 million for an initiative to assist states in providing high-risk insurance pools to support affordable insurance for almost 200,000 people who are medically high-risk.”
Not really much. Apparently killing people in Iraq is more important by billions.
Steve-AR, Mary McC, and Dubhaltach (among many others here)–I think the world of you folks.
George Monbiot nails it –
Libertarians are the True Social Parasites
Understandably angry I would say - target it at the predators now in charge of America. :-)
Qauker Girl @ 73 is right “righteous anger” is what will is needed. There is a big difference between pacifism and passivity. What hope there is lies in people getting frightened of what will happen to them if they do get ill and getting consequently absolutely spitting furious about what is quite frankly theft.
mary mac
dressed in black
silver buttons
up and down her back
Mary, you are worth your weight in gold around here. Your comments are very astute and I find your POV to be enlightening.
Take it Back in 2008!
Nancy Pelosi is standing in the way of a full investigation into the crimes of the Bush/Cheney administration. She will not allow impeachment hearing to take place.
Please sign the petition to replace Nancy Pelosi as Speaker of the House. It is Constitutional and can be done during session. In fact the rule was written for just such an occasion; the removal of a complicit Speaker to advance the impeachment of a rogue administration.
http://www.petitiononline.com/.....ition.html
Thr whole point of constitutional law “We the People” or we the fucking peasants (serfs leiged to our fuedal lords the corporate boards. WTF
people are soooooooooooo stoopit…if peeps arent screened for diseases they will pass them to insured and uninsured alike …IT BEHOOVES everyone to have universal single payer healthcare…teh simple
PS: Just in case somebody misunderstands part of my last, I’m a professional soldier ergo I’m NOT a pacifist.