But last night after his vigorous and emotional defense of St. John the Divine, Atrios rightly characterized Matthews performance as "LEAVE JOHN MCCAIN ALOOOOOONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Now Matthews has taken up the cause of poor, beleagured Rudy Giuliani. He’s sticking it to the New York Times for being unfair to Rudy over the Shag Fund, saying that their erroneous reporting cost Rudy 10 points in the polls, their story was wrong and they printed a "retraction" on page A-35.
But as Felix Gillette points out in the New York Observer, it wasn’t a "retraction":
In short, then, Mr. Matthews was accusing The New York Times of running an inaccurate story that, along with others of its kind, did grave damage to the Giuliani campaign—a serious charge.
The Times’ initial Nov. 29 story, by William Rashbaum—about the then-mayor billing travel and security costs to the city during a time when he was having extramarital liaisons in the Hamptons—simply recounted on page 26 of the national section the original news, which had been broken by The Politico. It acknowledged that some questions about how those expenses had been billed to the city remained unclear in the aftermath of The Politico’s scoop—such as how much of the expenses were billed to the mayor’s agency and how much were billed to obscure city agencies.
The follow-up piece by reporter Russ Buettner, published Dec. 20 and labeled a “Checkpoint,” reported that, as it turned out, all eight of Mr. Giuliani’s trip to the Hamptons in 1999 and 2000 had been billed to the mayor’s office—while several subsequent trips in 2001, after Mr. Giuliani’s affair with Ms. Nathan had become public, were billed to a separate agency.
The item did throw cold water on the heated question of whether the mayor was using unusual accounting practices to keep his affair secret. But it did little to alter the basic facts of the larger narrative about (a) the cost to taxpayers of the mayor’s extramarital affair in the Hamptons and (b) his office’s still mysterious practice, as the Checkpoint noted, of shifting mayoral travel expenses “to lesser-known units,” a practice “other administrations frowned on.” And it never presented itself as a retraction or correction of the earlier story.
It’s typical of the kind of deference Matthews always shows "manly men" (witness the embarrassing codpiece fealty that Digby has disturbingly chronicled for so long). What’s up with that? I don’t know, and I’m not sure I want to know.
But on cue, this morning, Matthews is back to bashing Clinton as nothing more than somebody’s wife. And nobody challenges him, because as Bob Somerby has long argued, when liberal women disagree with Matthews, they’re never invited back again. So to the extent that the women on the show aren’t a pack of misogynistic vultures themselves (Andrea Mitchell, Maureen Dowd, Kate O’Beirne — come on down!) and they disagree with Matthews, they’re forced to choose between joining in in the festivities or being disappeared.
There are no women hosts on MSNBC who get that kind of tight content control. And that’s a problem.
Four words, MSNBC: The Rachel Maddow Show.
Related posts:
- GRITtv Live: Is the Gender Gap Growing?
- Chris Matthews Misleads Viewers on Viability of Public Option
- Late Night: Sarah Palin Consults Her Little Black Book
- Late Night: Among the Republicans’ Chief Weaponry is Lying, Hypocrisy, and a Fanatical Devotion to Torture
- Late Night: Sorry, Lady, But Your Gender Is a Pre-Existing Condition





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Epu’d from below
Good News here in Iowa. We have a progressive challenging our Bush Dog, Leonard Boswell. Ed Fallon has filed papers to run against boswell. Here is a link to Democratic Underground.
Looks like his website is still under construction. I sent an email to the campaign to find out how I can contribute
Zed, and I wish we could change Matthews.
Same question; if she can’t handle the de riguer diss from Tweety, now, how’s she going to handle it from he and the goopers if she makes it to the general?
The republican candidate will go after her like a Great White after a little seal.
It’s scary to think about.
He needs to go some place that would be good for his health and peace of mind – like Tibet.
You forget kathleen Parker? She’s godawful.
Does anyone have any data on Matthews? How many people actually watch that crap?
Me, I think someone ought to try to deliberately ignore Tweety while he’s trying to suck up to them. That’s gotta be the most effective way to shut him up…
What do you think, Jane??
I’ve seen no evidence that Senator Clinton is incapable of handling tweety and his gibberish.
What I do see is evidence of a lot of other people calling BS on his sexist, immature, rantings which do nothing more than prove he’s an idiot and that NBC/GE are not really interested in reporting Facts>
Reminds me of what they did to Dan Rather. The whole story of Bush getting out of serving his full time in the national guard was true, but a false memo (circulated by who knows) served to debunk the entire story.
Jane,
I have to admit I was sceptical of your claims about Matthews being Anti-Hillary/Misogynistic. So I did a little digging and found this piece over at MediaMatters that has some facts that support what you are saying.
Thanks, Dakine @8
Couldn’t have said it better/more concisely myself.
FunnyDiva
Jeebers. Yuk.
Chris Matthews has no self realization tools. He is all id.
Thanks, you want facts? Here’s your facts. Fact checking is pretty easy with the internet, too msm types don’t use it so much.
Tweety is delusional and when he is proven wrong he attacks the messenger or shuts them up. Chuck Todd tried to correct him once and Tweety shut him down.
His credo “Spin well spun is better than the truth”
“If she can’t handle it?”
That’s one of the most outrageously sexist things I’ve heard in this campaign, and I’ve heard a lot.
And it. Just. Doesn’t. Stop.
I hope that Oprah or Michelle or someone reads Jesse Jr the riot act. Because he is not helping, Katrina-code-words notwithstanding (and I don’t remember Obama shedding a lot of tears over Katrina either).
Thanks for the link. Here’s the money quote:
The bar graph tells it all.
Okay, maybe I’m living in some kind of altered reality, but if MY husband went on national television and said the things about any woman that Chris Matthews persists in spitting out on a daily basis, he and I would be having a bit of a chat about his misogyny when he arrived home.
Does she just think that things are fine as long as the paycheck clears?
Sheesh.
IMHO, YMMV,
-S
William Cohen on CNN concern trolling about we nasty partisan political people… only one response for that:
More and better Democrats!
Less Republican and Pundit Concern Trolling.
And this study by MediaMatters was done prior to the Iowa Caucus. Evidently, MSNBC did not get the memo and have chosen to allow Matthews to continue unfettered.
I think that would merit more than just a chat. It would in my house at least.
I like it, emptywheel.
How about an old Carlson-Begalla format, with Maddow having equal billing as Tweety on the same show?
That would keep blondie on a short leash, Rachel could point out his little sexisms aas they occur.
Anyone remember his interview with the lady who made the “Hillary Girl” video? I thought his tongue was going to hang out.
You know, the thing about them that amazes me is that we keep hearing from this very wing of both parties – the slightly to the right of Rockefeller Republican “center” – that we dasn’t fight any of Our Fearless Leader’s nominations because he as president has an Inalienable Right to choose anyone he wants for jobs in his gift, and it’s wrong to oppose him.
For months and months every other word out of Matthews’ mouth was that HRC could not be beaten….and on and on…then a couple of weeks ago, I heard him slam her bigtime, and it was then that I realized how much he really doesn’t like her…but this morning, he seemed to have lost it completely as he blatantly blamed Hillary’s win on lying voters!! Voters lied to the pollsters! Lying voters!!!
Then he insinuated that the voters lied because they didn’t want to admit their racism. The voters for the candidates are liars!!! He is out of his frickin’ mind.
Then, he turned around and made that comment about her New York win being because she had been cheated on by Bill…that she can only win by eliciting sympathy…that she has no mind or record of her own.
What kind of crazy thinking is that? Revenge thinking. He has a personal grudge with her…I don’t know what it is, but it is there.
Good Lord, Tweety defending Rudy? The guy with (ground) zero credibility?
I think “chat” is code for ripping him a new one. It is in my house, at least. ;)
HRC’s performance reminds me of the criminal judge who once told me that when a defendant cries or whimpers at sentencing, I think he or she is trying to bullshit me. A criminal defendant who is self contained is someone I can evaluate.
I think the press is quite condescending to HRC’s latest theatrics (my eyes well up). I strongly suspect that the Clintons will be outed in this campaign, finally.
I still resent the Clintons claim that they brought us that great economy when they were in power, based on foreign energy dependence at an accelerating rate. The Clintons point to the deficit when they left office. I point to the increased level of foreign energy dependence. The Clintons had no energy policy and still do not, except dependence on foregn fossil fuels. Shed a tear over that.
Bbbbut, Sunshine, the facts have a well-known, liberal partisan bias! It’s so mean to press them into service in critizing one’s opponents!
FunnyDiva
Luuuurve them double standards….NOT!
Here is a classic clip. Stephanie Miller defends Congressman Pete Stark and calls Matthews a “Right Wing Tool”. Matthews is clearly upset telling Steph, “Don’t come on and say you don’t want to talk about what you are talking about.” Steph is also tough on Kommander Guy but Matthews defends him, “I don’t think he is an evil guy.”
I personally think Matthews is an evil guy.
I can just see Rachel telling him “Tweety, you ignorant ####…”
oh wait. she already did that!
Tweety is all about making it out to be about Tweety.
” Bless his heart”.
/snark
Yeah, I’ll give an ear to any of the “moderate” Republicans when they show the tiniest bit of ethical standards instead of falling in lockstep with the dictates laid down from the WH. Enough of beating up on Dems for not standing up to Bush–until the so-called moderate Republicans actually show an iota of integrity and independence from der Bushentator.
Oh, and, Goldman Sachs is saying we’re on the road to Recession. Heckuva a job, Bushie. Heckuva job “moderate” Republicans.
I disagree. Any candidate – male or female – must be able to handle the rigors of a long, long campaign. Time will tell with Hillary as with any candidate. I hope she loses, but not because she couldn’t handle that. Know what I think? She’ll be fine.
Tweety is an “actor” on a teevee show and on cartoons.
Or, perhaps, less, if you know what I mean?
What things have the Republicans done in the past 8 years that merits that any of them be re-elected????? Exactly what??? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.
I think just to focus on mysogyny, and I’m not saying you are Jane, is to miss other collosal problems that have been evoked by Christy’s earlier post this morning on the “Tweety Factor,”
and your post here.
One huge problem is the ridiculous behavior of the media and I am not minimizing it, but any gender prejudice or mysogyny would be an important component of it.
This has gone through my mind and probably a lot of people’s and Mathews is not the only one guilty of it, and as I watched he and KO and Mitchell, and the rest of the talking heads, they were all guilty of this summed up very well in a post by LooseHeadProp on Christy’s thread “Media Analysis: the Tweety Factor Runs Rampant:”
LHP@129 Nails it:
Tweety has completely lost the distinctions between:
1) reporting news–ie actual facts
2) commenting on the news–”this is what I think about those actual facts”
3) presenting his opinion AS fact
He just cannot seem to get away from #3. Which is not legitimate journalism, it is propaganda
This failure to distinguish between news, comment (their used to be separate segments on the networks with the commentor labled as a comment rather than news) and the most important, #3 presenting Tweety’s and the rest of the so-called pundits’ opinions as fact.
I have a theory as to why this is happening, but I don’t know what the therapy for it is, other than better hiring and better journalism standards.
Maybe enough egg on their face could have some small impact, and moments like Rachel Madow’s putting this in Mathews’ face, but I don’t think eggo on face is enough to change this.
The reason that opinions presented as facts have become so common-place is ego. People like Mathews get in to a literal cadence that’s a frenzy (Tweety more than others) and they keep blurting whatever comes into their mind, and forget to report the facts. They begin to believe that whatever comes into their mind on the fly on the air is fact.
Yeah, we make comments on blogs, make predictions, etc. and get opinionated, but we’re not on national television with 500,000 to 1 million viewers, and we’re not being paid to deliver news on the comments and to distinguish the comments which are for better or worse some degree of analysis at times from facts and news.
And their is probably a better effort from people who make comments to context a fact when they think they have one and support it with a link, than there has been on MSNBC lately among all of them.
O’Reilly vs. Olbermann
Just what does Tweety’s hatred of Hillary trace to? Some say that he didn’t get to be WH press secretary. Some say his Philly roots rebel against a Chicago-born pol. Some say because he’s a jerk with a microphone.
Hell, he wrote a book advocating “campaigning” as a philosophy of life.
DaKine@08; if you think that forcing Matthews to pull in his horns will mean that she won’t face MUCH worse in the general, then you haven’t been paying attention.
“What I do see is a lot of other people calling bullshit on his sexist, immature rantings…”
Good.
Now. 9 more of our troops have died in the past two days, and the meter in Iraq is whirling along at $3 billion dollars a week…and counting.
Iraq is not going away.
Given their track records, which of the three top candidates do you think is the most outraged at what has gone on, and what IS going on there, and which of them will be able to do the best job of hammering the assholes who dragged us into this misery, for doing it?
Yes they did! Don’t you remember Terry Schaivo?
OH, yeah! The Rachel Maddow Show would be on my DVR schedule every single day.
The publishers of the DSM-IV need to reserve
an entire chapter for Tweety in the next edition.
And Jon Stewart ripped him one beauty on that one. It was masterful! Tweety didn’t know what hit him.
Gingrich and Delay put out a contract on “moderate” Republicans and got rid of them all. There aren’t any left. The press only calls Snow and Collins (and whomever) “Moderate” because on some issues, they’re not as bat-sh*t crazy as the other Republicans. The Nixonian “moderates” are now called Democrats. Maybe DINOs, or Blue Dogs, but Democrats nevertheless. Except for Lieberman. Maybe he’s trying to re-create the “moderate” wing of the Republican party.
Bob in HI
Yikes. I’ve seen you in action.
I wanted to include LHP’s whole quote correctly because I think that is the main problem:
LHP@129
Chris Matthews is a twit of the highest order.
Rachel Maddow ROCKS and should have had her own show some time ago.
I agree with RevDeb and others, if my husband spoke about women like CM does regularly he would be in the doghouse all. the. time.
Pretty sure Limbaugh started promoting him when he started inviting anybody who ever emptied a garbage pail for someone involved in Whitewater onto his People are Talking show. He really doesn’t have an audience without Clinton haters, and he clearly dislikes women very much.
I’m not exactly a Senator Hillary fan but you’re killing me with the “She’s got to handle the pressure” crap. Fifteen years of surviving and excelling in spite of everything the right has thrown at her has already shown that she can handle the pressure.
The problem with your remark wasn’t that there’s crap, it was the “can’t handle” part. It seems like you’re taking statements that this kind of crap should be smacked down hard as evidence that she “can’t handle it.”
If we succeed in putting a stop to this kind of thing in the media (or at least putting the brakes on it), we’ll have an environment that’s better for dealing with the inevitable GOP slime, not worse.
Ah the sweet smell of identity politics. In 2013 I’m sure we’ll look back fondly on this episode as President Clinton asserts that ‘…another six months and the political situation will stabilize in Iraq and the Iranian theater is also showing signs of improvement. I now turn this press conference over to Sec of the Treasury Rahm Emmanuel who will review our progress in fastracking CAFTA II our ‘free trade’ agreement with Chine, Rahm…’
Yep, all anybody is talking about today is Tweety, Tears and ‘how could the pollsters fuck up like that..’ The total blackout on JRE’s campaign continues. SEIU and The Culinary Workers boards vote to support Senator ‘I don’t need no stinkin’ Labor’ Obama…..
But, heavens Tweety and his perceived sexism are the story. This is serious stuff folks when a guy who probably needs help wiping his ass, see his appearance on the Daily Show, is the #1 topic in the ’sphere. And I must say when I interviewed some voters their response was not encouraging. Here they are when asked about why they supported the candidate they did, ‘Baaaaaaaaaaaa…….Baaaa…….Baaaaaaaaaaa! Ba. Baaa. Baaaaaaaaaaa!’
Yup, Obama is a populist, Clinton is a reformer, and what’s all this talk about John Edwards running for the Democratic nomination?
First off, my preferred candidate is already out of the race.
I think all three of the top Dems have weaknesses and have tried to finesse the issue on Iraq. Edwards has admitted he made a mistake in his vote and looks to be most willing to get as many troops out but was unwilling to commit to being out of Iraq by 2012. Clinton has stood by her vote so I have to give her credit for standing up for what she believes. Obama has ridden his vows that he opposed the invasion but few of his actual actions have reflected that.
Edwards has said, as did Obama and Clinton that nothing is off the table when dealing with Iran.
The bottomline is, none of them are perfect on the issue of Iraq and about all we can do is continue to fight them on the issues, across the board, even after they are in the oval office.
As many others have stated, we need more and better Democrats in ALL offices.
As someone said, it is about ego. The “news” people now consider themselves stars and believe that they know best because they see these people they interview. I can’t even imagine Cronkite behaving in such a manner. The pundits have become the story – never mind what else is going on.
“You bad ol’ Democwat…”
;>)
Tweety hates Hillary and gets a nice little tent in his pants when he thinks of Rudy.
I don’t really think much of his political savvy. I think Scarborough and Buchanan are much more insightful- and Brockow blew em all away last night- makin em look like the make up class for political science dropouts.
Fortunately- the whole bunch of em don’t get enough viewership to matter much.
Prime time cable news ratings for Monday Jan 7, courtesy of TVNewser.
(I *think* Monday had everyone’s regular schedule — not like last night where everything got bumped and scrambled into one long, breaking news show.)
Given the numbers, one would think that Keith Olbermann rather than Tweety would be MSNBCs big news name. Oh, well.
Let’s face it, I don’t get it. I couldn’t live with someone like this, even if it was an “act”. If she’s buying that one, she’s not as smart as her resume says she is.
IMHO, YMMV,
-S
Prairie Sunshine, if you want to see republican conger eels discovering ethics, then help us send Clinton back to the Hill. Without her to count on in the general election, there will be “Abraham Lincoln’s” coming out of the Senate panelling, and the day Clinton folds her presidential tent, they will start the process of becoming so bi-partisan it’ll be embarassing to watch. :o)
She will be worth a huge push to them if she gets the nomination, and they know it perfectly well.
Conversely, if we choose Edwards or Obama, the next morning, the Goldwater Swat Team will be in some abandoned D.C. tenement, practicing going room-to-room in the white house, and it won’t take long for the drill to give way to the real operation. :o)
Absolutely, dosido. Let’s just say that, while I love Mr. Strategerie, that would NEVER happen at our house.
-S
Stupid question time-who is Matthew’s wife? I freely admit I avoid him like the plague, so his marital situation has escaped my notice. Then there’s teh ick factor…married to Tweety, ugh!
Meanwhile, Tweety’s paramour, following
the expert economic advice of Stanford’s finest,
unveils the largest tax cut in history.
Because 9/11 changed everything.
Including the rules of arithmetic.
What makes anyone think she “can’t handle the pressure?” Because her voice broke?
As Think Progress noted yesterday, nobody ever says a man who tears up “can’t handle the pressure.” Nobody even suggests it. It shows their “sensitive” side. That they can be human.
To bring that up in the context only of a woman candidate — “toughen up, babe, it’s only gonna get harder from here” — when she’s never done anything to suggest she can’t “handle the pressure” is pretty misogynistic, yeah.
we’re on the same page here. I’d NEVER put up with that kind of attitude or behavior whether it was an act or not. It would be embarrassing publicly and impossible to tolerate privately.
Tweety’s wife is a former local tv news anchor and is now a lobbyist for Marriott. People who know them say they have a mother son relationship
Chris Matthews’ wife is Kathleen Matthews, a former TV journalist before accepting a VP position with Marriott.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Matthews
In other words, I can’t imagine how he explains his comments when he gets home.
-S
Ewwww! I guess that’s why he’s always looking for a GOP father figure, to complete the set…
Yep, there’s that ick factor I was talking about :)
When you find the current Rs on Capital Hill who have the integrity of Barry Goldwater and Hugh Scott and are willing to show that level of leadership in any way other than as a Concern Troll action, you should inform Diogenes that the honest person has been found.
Otherwise, you’re inventing a fantasy world that has not existed in this country in over thirty years.
Misogyny, thy name is Matthews… or is it MSNBC?
(with apologies to William Shakespeare)
What you’re forgetting is that the news business has changed. It’s not about news anymore. It’s a business, so what matters is the bottom line, and what moves the bottom line is not the niceties of journalism, but ratings. Keith Olberman’s Countdown is not immune; Yes, it has news segments, but the last half of the show is larded with entertainment pieces. My nephew the school teacher confesses that he gets most of his news from the Colbert Report. Mary Tyler Moore showed us what was coming thirty years ago. Her show is called a “comedy,” perhaps following Shakespearean tradition (nobody gets killed), but it really is a tragedy.
Maybe the only thing that would change this direction is for Congress to pass a law mandating every radio and TV station to provide two hours of real news coverage every day, during prime time in morning and evening. After all, they can mandate Public Service Announcements, so why not news?
Are there Emmys or Oscars or something for best news show? If not, why not? If yes, who won the last one?
Bob in HI
I guess you all missed it when she interviewed him for his new book (a poorly written knockoff of the Prince’s work)
he was acting like a 12 year old and she was his loving patient mommy.
LOL.
A few threads down, I suggested (not knowing this) that the reason that men like Dick Morris and Tweety had such hatred for Hillary (as well as being sexist asses) was that they had unresolved “Dark Mother” issues which they project onto Hillary. They like their women vapid like Laura, who is married to Dubya who has the darkest Dark Mother of them all.
Matthews is a misogynist – the medical dictionary defines misogyny as adversion or hatred of women. The evidence is clear, IMO.
On MSNBC a little while ago, Tweety seemed to be straining to find an explanation for Clinton’s victory (and Obama’s second place showing) that did not involve giving Clinton credit for being qualified or for running a good campaign.
there’s some weirdness going on—blogger seems to be down as is g-mail as are my comcast e-mail accounts. Hhhhhhhhmmmmmmm. Hacktacular.
If I understand the ratings Matthews has about 5-6 full Rose Bowls cheering him on and that is it. That is insignificant.
Is Matthews the last word on who is on Hardball? I doubt he was happy with Rachel last night (or Brokaw for that matter, lol) & hope he doesn’t keep her off Hardball. I love how she holds her own with Buchanan & Matthews even tho they are so practiced at talking over everyone else. She definitely needs her own show.
“Stupid question time-who is Matthew’s wife? I freely admit I avoid him like the plague, so his marital situation has escaped my notice. Then there’s teh ick factor…married to Tweety, ugh!”
Not only is he married, but a few weeks ago– I guess they had run out of material, or no one was returning their calls– he put his wife in his chair to interview him!!! The mind boggles that his producer would allow this, but there we are.
Bob in HI
I believe that was for his tenth anniversary “Hardball” show which was mainly Tweety trying not to break his arm patting himself on the back about how wonderful he was.
I have been thinking about this. There is no way I would’ve voted for Hillary if I had lived in New Hampshire. But after reading and hearing some of what I am today, I might be sorry I didn’t. That is a hard one for me because I am so angry at her capitulation during the run-up to the iraq war. The fear and viceral hatred of women, not only from the Rethugs, but the chattering class reminds me that nothing will change until more women have real power. Which makes me wonder if it wouldn’t be more radical to elect a woman than an African American man. Its a hard one.
And what Shirley Chisholm and Gloria Steinam said.
More filth from Tweety’s mind,
courtesy of Media Matters.
His crap about Hillary Clinton, actually both the Clinton’s, is often so irrational, contrived, and obsessive that I really think it’s got to be a case study in some kind of psycological syndrome. Last night, at one point, I thought he needed a net thrown over him, when he was talking about staying up all night to figure out what kind of skulduggery the Clintons were pulling. Humphrey Bogart and his ball bearings almost appeared.
Anyway, I thought the following, from the prevously noted source was typical, and probably revealing:
“I think a lot of people pick a president they figure would sort of like them if they knew them. And if you are overweight or have a problem with your diet — and I certainly did for years — you may figure Hillary doesn’t like people like me. She’s looking down on me. What do you think? Howie, she’s looking down on me, that woman. She thinks she’s better than me.” (October 19)
But Lisa, the pressure she’ll get if she’s nominated this time will be nothing like dealing with Bill’s stupidity and his inability to keep his fly zipped. Nor will it be like waltzing to a relatively safe Senate seat in New York.
One mistake that a lot of her supporters are making, and a lot of other democrats, too, is that they think this election is just going to be marginally more intense than anything we’ve had in the past half-century or so.
It is not. It’s going to be nightmarish in it’s implications for the future. One of the two parties is going to come out of it mortally wounded. No shake-hands-and-make-up. Those 9 of our troops who died in Iraq in the past two days are tragic reminders of the fact that there is not going to be a Kumbayah ending there. The only way to hold what used to be Iraq together, is at the point of a gun. And partitioning it is going to be bloody and chaotic to an extent that we haven’t yet seen.
Will the democrats keep relatively quiet and let bush and the neo-cons drape the flaming turd-lei around their necks while they slip out of town to whet the “who lost Iraq?” machetes? Doesn’t the question, in it’s pointing to the dishonesty of the people who did this to us, outrage you?
(Hillary Clinton has very little outrage, that I’ve seen. She has a lot of stress…already.)
But I digress. The carnivorous petro-dactls (pun intended) haven’t even begun to come home to roost yet. When they do someone is going to have to take a shitload of blame. The democrats are going to have to decide who they want that to be, and then they need to set about the job of pointing out the culprits. Anything less than that, and it won’t matter WHO knocked up Rosemary and sired the little monster; the democrats will be stuck paying the child support.
No. It’s getting on toward bandaid-on-the-hairy-leg time, if we can find a candidate who’s got the spittle for it. And that is not Hillary Clinton. She’s used her mojo in cuddling up to the warpimps, and her kind of sellout is like being a “little bit pregnant”. There aint no such thing.
But we’re in for it, in this one, and we better pick someone who can go after the assholes tooth and nail. If the Clinton supporters think that’s Hillary, I think they’re in for a terrible shock, if they’re able to
secure the nomination for her.
If we pick either Edwards or Obama, shitheads like Matthews can rant their gastrointestinal tract out of their ears, and it won’t matter a fig. They and the republican candidates will essentially be irrelevant.
Couch Time!
Although nobody may have ever been quoted as saying that man who tears up can’t handle the pressure, The 1972 Edmund Muskie media incident certainly shows that some must think it. Certainly, some suggest it.
The Muskie story been mentioned in The Chicago Tribune, Wall Street Journal, and Slate.com in the last two days, so I don’t think Think Progress thought that through thoroughly.
And you passed it along without bothering to check.
where are my pearls?
If you’re looking for the perfect candidate then I’ve got to tell you, there is not such thing. Each and everyone of the candidates are great yet have problems. That’s why the Presidency is only one part of the equation. The Legislature and the Courts are the other two parts that we will obviously have to keep work on. And in politics, as in life, you never really win. It’s a constant battle where you get ahead for some time then fall behind again.
Well, the Muskie story was over thirty-five years ago and even the attitudes of men have been allowed to change a bit since then. Muskie was responding to cheap shots taken by Bill Loeb towards his (Muskie’s) wife.
But since Little Boots and Willard (I pulled my car over and cried when the church said African Americans could become bishops) and of course John Boehnoer and all can now cry, it is acceptable behavior for a man. /s
Sometimes I start to lean towards Hillary. Then a person smarter and wiser than I am sets me straight.
Jane, like ThinkProgress, wasn’t arguing that no man in history has ever been accused of not handling pressure because he teared up. Everyone who follows politics knows about the Muskie story (even with the recent revelation that David Broder kind of manufactured it.) But it was 36 years ago. The ThinkProgress examples were all recent, and the double standard isn’t disproved by pointing out one counterexample from a generation ago.
This country is going to get ripped to shreds.
I think that is one of the reasons why the kumbaya line that Obama took was so enticing.
It looks like we’ll be going all Hobbes all the time.
Maybe the GOP can promote the healing by bringing in Gingrich in a brokered convention.
-G
Kathleen R. Matthews, who anchored News 7 on WJLA-TV, the ABC affiliate in Washington, D.C before accepting a position as an Executive Vice President with J.W. Marriott.
Not to mention Poppy’s lost legacy blubberfest.
-G
A defender of Hillary Clinton, who so diligently refuses to talk about the specifics of her track record, is telling me that I’m inventing a fantasy world?
If we send Clinton packing it won’t really be a matter of ethics. For the republicans, it will be simply self-preservation; a matter of finding something to cling when their last lifeboat has gone down. :o)
As for your little “30 year” comment, I’d just point out that last year 9 GOP congressmen hiked over to the white house, barged into the oval office, climbed up on junior’s desk, dropped trou, and took a nice, steaming, collective, shit. :o)
Maybe you missed it, but it was the first mustering of Barry’s swat team. They went unarmed, except for words to tell bush that he needed to stop talking in meaningless platitudes and give them SOMETHING to take to the voters, before the midterms.
It didn’t happen, of course.
But the next visit, poliically speaking, will be with cattle prods and assault rifles, and if we send Hil on her way, it much increases the chances that it will go down. Again, if we’re dumb enough to send them the Clinton lifeboat, as usual, they will climb in, throw us one bloody clusterfuck, give us the finger, and then row off to their corporate boardrooms, secure in the knowledge that they have a better than fair chance of hanging on to the white house and retaking the Senate and House.
Just take a good hard look at her record, and her electability, then drop those Hillary-blinders, and we’ll show you how it’s done. :o)
Hillary can handle the pressure and there will be a lot of it throughout the campaign through the primaries to the general if goes that far. It is to be expected that the Republicans and their network Faux Cribnotes will trash her all of the time. What is galling is that people such as the Tweeter should be able to be grownup enough to educate themselves about the candidates and not just be a lazy bastard and just shoot their mouths off in an ignorant manner.
Heh, painting with a mighty broad paint brush, eh? *g*
I find it acceptable, and I agree that it’s generally considered acceptable for a man or a woman to cry without fear of being considered unqualified for responsibility, but I’m not everybody, as Think Progress claims, and as Jane passed along, with no qualification, in order to make a point.
Be careful about using absolutes, like everybody. It’s seldom going to be accurate.
I think perhaps Jane was referring to the current political climate, where the president (whose reputation is for being a Manly Man) and Mr. Boehner and Mr. Romney and lots of other figures involved in this election have talked about crying and been hailed as sensitive fellows.
I also think that the Muskie story is well enough known that it’s kind of – odd? – to call someone out for lying because they didn’t bring it up.
Many men don’t or wouldn’t commit these horrors. Just saying that historically in our country many have gotten away with it. Like Eddie Izzard says, “Kill one man and you go to jail. Kill a million and you might get house arrest.” paraphasing
Prime time cable news ratings for Monday Jan 7, courtesy of TVNewser.
Wow – Tucker must be working for the company that provides replacement teevee remote controls for people who’ve worn theirs out switching away from his show.
And that damned FISA court was founded in 1978!(Where have I heard that?)
That’s almost as outdated as the Muskie incident.
Starting to ramble again.
It’s important to remember that Tweety has been aroused by the Clintons
since before the flood.
Not lying. Just responsible qualification of absolutes.
Can’t argue with that, but, one death could also result in the Death Penalty…
LOL Bob–You mean Britneylolopolooza Mania and Worst Person in the World aren’t solid Columbia University Masters in Journalism pieces? *g*
Pew Research center did a poll:
What is interesting, is the theory floated on Tweety’s show a minute ago, that AP called the election prematurly because Dartmouth professors and students weren’t back yet manning the polling they used, and that cost Obama the election.
wadr, have we been seeing a whole lot of responsible qualifications of absolutes on this subject today?
OK, first off, those “9 GOP congressmen” who went up to the White House were doing so in their own self interest to avoid losing an election (that they lost anyway). And if they were so truly willing to follow the example of Barry Goldwater, they would do something other than vote in total compliance with the WH across the board on everything.
With your anti-Hillary rants, I hear so many echoes of the Conventional Wisdom that everyone was just so sure that Rudy was going to mop the floors with Hillary during the Y2K Senate race. I don’t see Senator Giuliani’s name anywhere.
I don’t particularly love Senator Clinton but I damned sure respect her for what she has done throughout her career. And I also believe that if Senator Clinton is the candidate that the Rs most want to face, they should be very careful of what they ask for as they just might get it.
You do not have to agree with me and I have no anticipation that you will ever have any respect for Senator Clinton. I just happen to believe that you are woefully wrong in your analysis.
And the FISA rules have been modified multiple times since the initial establishment.
Kind of like that thing called the Constitution
Yet another reason to stay at Hyatt hotels.
Well, I’ll vote for whoever is nominated. But your scenario doesn’t seem to jibe with the other rap on HRC; that she’s a machiavellian Lady MacBeth who going to pluck Edwards’ and Obama’s hearts out through their ears and eat them with petit fors.
Actually, I didn’t see where Bill Clinton was such a Republican enabler. After the loss of Newt, whats-his-name from Louisiana, Loach Faircloath, and half the house managers, I began to think that if Monica Lewinski hadn’t existed, it would have been necessary to invent her.
From the MSM, not a whole lot.
I’d like to be better than them in that regard.
You mean “one trick ponies” aren’t absolute? :)
LisaDawn; I’m sorry, but the “none-of-them-are-perfect” ploy is a cop-out.
It’s true, but Hillary is so much LESS than perfect, that comparing her to either Edwards or Obama, is ludicrous.
Let me ask you a few questions:
Do you think that invading Iraq was a mistake?
Do you think that VOTING to authorize george bush to do it, was a good idea?
Do you think that Hillary lending the dignity of her office, and her presence, to FoxNews’ 10th anniversary birthday party was a good thing for her to do?
Do you think her support for Joe Lieberman in the Connecticut primary, against the anti-war candidate, Ned Lamont, was the right thing to do? Was it a SAVVY thing to do?
Hell, the people on HERE gave her holy hell for THAT. Do you think that if she were that man named “Smith” that they would have forgiven her for doing it, and have been cheerleading for “him” the way so many of them are doing it for her now? I sure as hell don’t. :o)
Do you think that her support for bush to send another 30,000 of our troops into the meatgrinder was a good thing to do? Would you have done it? (Keep in mind, 9 more of them were killed in the past two days.)
Do you think that her support for the Kyle-Lieberman amendment, with it’s clear “go for it!” to george bush to gin up shitmire #2, was a good thing to support?
Do you think that burning an american flag should be a federal crime?
I only ask, because Hillary does.
There are more, but Christ, it’s tiring listing all of these reasons to dump her, that her defenders so diligently ignore, while they sing her praises.
LisaDawn, I hope you’ll post an answer to these…
So have my opinions, though not all of them.
No, actually, I meant in this discussion.
Hillary supported Lamont – she helped him raise funds to defeat Lieberman.
You seem to think that Obama and Clinton have drastically different voting records in the Senate…they do not.
No candidate is perfect, but you’ve gone around the bend with your hate for Hillary.
Enough already.
The Muskie incident happened how long ago? There’s a good reason it’s not being used for comparison. There have been one or two social changes since then. Since the modern world is replete with examples of men crying with no body questioning their competence or their ability to handle stress, that’s a terrible argument.
DaKine@111;
“Were doing so in their own self-interest…”
Which was exactly my point. Thank you for making it.
Oh. Are you under the impression that Goldwater and Hugh Scott, etc., did NOT evict Richard Nixon because of self-interest? As politically naive as you seem to be, that’s entirely possible.
They were looking at a firestorm of american voters, if they had not done that. And unless we’re idjit enough to nominate Clinton, the GOP may very well be looking at another one.
BTW, I never thought Giuliani had a chance against her, in New York.
If she had had the courage and the intellect to apologize for helping george bush turn Iraq into a charnal house, and if she had used her considerable power and influence to excoriate the assholes for their lies and distortions, instead of helping them disseminate them, I’d be working my tail off for her. Instead, she did all of the things that I asked about, on 117.
Why don’t you go there and throw us a few answers, yourself?
So let me follow the argument. Hillary Clinton voted for the war, therefore we should allow any kind of sexist pile-on imaginable, because she won’t be able to handle the stress and is therefore not fit for office.
There are a lot of good reasons for arguing that female candidates be treated equally, not the least of which is we don’t want to discourage women voters (who look and see no place for themselves in a party that allows such things) or set a precedent for other women candidates (who make up a rather large part of the Democratic party).
What you’re suggesting is a great way to drive women out of the political process altogether.
Did you hear that?
The lionesses are stirring.
Have you seen them deal with hyenas?
They work together.
My argument is Hillary Clinton has done nothing substantive whatsoever to stop the war, and neither has any other Democrat in Congress including those who ran for President with her.
I don’t expect her ever to do anything to stop the war. I expect Obama to do more. That’s one reason I don’t want her of many.
One reason the “war” or a better term is the “fiasco invasion hemorrhaging lives, billions, and exponential disability is raging with as much dysfunction as ever is that the American people aren’t outraged enough. I don’t think anything will ever outrage them enough until they face the draft of their children. Then there will be banging on the gates of Congress and the heads (a metaphor) to get off their asses and stop the Iraqi occupation.
Expect no resistance whatsoever that works to Bush from this Congress–and I include S. 2248. And when you bother to read it, none of it is worth a damn.
Gurrl; she did no such thing. Not in the primary.
AFTER Lamont had beaten Lieberman in the primary, she gave him $5,000, but I hope you don’t believe that that was out of the goodness of her heart.
That was strictly a cover-her-ass donation. If she had remained “neutral” in the general while Lieberman ran as an independent, and defeated (with a ton of republican help) the antiwar democrat she had helped him oppose, in the primary, there would have been a firestorm breaking on her head. We might not even be talking about her candidacy now.
What’s too funny about this little rightwing aspect of Hillary, is that Jane and Christy and Trex, and some of the others on here absolutely worked their hineys to the bone to help Lamont win the primary. And there were some posts about Clinton that rival anything I’ve put up, for anger at her. :o)
Gurrrl, you just got this one wrong. No biggie, I miss some, too, but Clinton only helped Lamont after he beat Lieberman in the primary, when she had no choice. Anything else on her part, and we would have made Chris Matthews bile look like a saucer of warm milk. :o)
And you made my point as well. I was actually following the Nixon impeachment in the summer of ‘74. Goldwater et al went and told him he was toast to protect themselves, yes. And it still didn’t work as it was an historic defeat for the Rs in ‘74 and ‘76. Nevertheless, Goldwater and Hugh Scott and other Rs of their day WERE willing to occasionally vote against the wishes of Mr Nixon.
I’m sorry, I refuse to trash Senator Clinton for doing political things like fund raising and going to media events like the Fox News anniversary. I think I’ve stated that I believe she was wrong to vote for the Iraq AUMF and I’m not a fan of the Kyl-Lieberman amendment (that was voted on by a whole lot of supposedly anti-war types such as Senator Webb after it was watered down significantly).
When she supported Lieberman in the primary, she was acting like every other incumbent Senator including Obama.
And yes, she has triangulated on the flag burning by supporting a bill to ban knowing that it has already been declared unconstitutional and she does not support a constitutional amendment.
But do please try to hold Senator Obama and Senator Edwards to the same standards you are holding Senator Clinton to and see what falls out. There ain’t a lot of difference in a lot of your hot button areas.
No, Jane, it wasn’t only the war vote. It was all of the other things I posted on 117. It was the fact that she was simply dumb enough to sell us out, while she went chasing after the votes of the people who were most responsible for the debacle in Iraq, and who had been she and her family’s blood enemies for the 8 years of her husband’s presidency.
Let’s put it this way; is there any degree of sucking up to the right, that would make her defenders finally turn their backs on her?
Be honest and try to think of something. I’d like to hear it.
I can’t remember the specific post, but when she was campaigning with Lieberman, you got off some zingers, yourself. As I’ve asked, if she was that man named “Smith” would be supporting her, after that, and all of the rest of it?
My point is that she’s done NOTHING, I mean zip! To deserve the loyalty and adulation that you people are showering on her.
She has not taken any position on our behalf that put her at one iota of political risk. At every turn, not only has she played it safe, she’s courted the very assholes who hate her as much, if not more, than Matthews does, and she’s still doing it, and you guys are flacking for her as if she had put her candidacy right on the line for our side, instead of so carefully calibrating her moves to the right.
You talk about “issues”. We have plenty of information on where she has stood, for the five years of the war, counting the run-up… and dammit, it was downright ugly to watch.
All I ask is that we ask her the REAL questions. Ask her if she thinks, as the GOP candidates to, if we’re winning.
Ask her what she would do if bush, in his desperation, can get the Kurds postpone that referendum for another 6 months, which put it on HER watch, if she’s nominated and can win the election.
Nothing points to her character and intelligence, and her courage as a progressive. Nothing.
And there are a ton of things that point to her lack of those things.
I attended a fundraiser for Lamont, where Hillary was working the room for him. She did the right thing.
She spoke very highly of him and asked everyone to support him. Did Obama raise money for Lamont?
My point is, no candidate is perfect, but that’s not enough for you – You’ve got her in your crosshairs.
Dakine@127; you were the one who was putting Goldwater and Scott’s raid on 1600 Pennsy avenue in the category of high principle. I was the one who insisted that it was, “we have to do this or we’re going to lose our ass”
As for the “historic win”, your history is not good. I was around then, too.
All Gerald Ford had to do was refrain from pardoning Nixon, and there would have been no democratic win, historic or otherwise. As it was, it ws no landslide for Carter; not even close.
“The Rachel Maddow Show.” YES!
David Shuster deserves a show, also.
Gurrl at 129, if you attended a fundraiser for Lamont, it was after he’d already beaten Lieberman in the primary, and for her to do it then, was nothing but mending fences, which she had to do. I give her no credit for that, and you shouldn’t either. Instead, look at where she put her support for the primary.
No one was holding a political gun to her head to make her support Lieberman, and by then anyone who wasn’t brain-dead knew what miserable bloody mess Iraq was.
Would it have ruined her politically to have the courage to support an antiwar candidate? It would have saved her reputation, as a courageous progressive. It would have been an act of leadership. Instead, she got right into bed with the warpimps, of which Lieberman is as bad as any repubican, if not worse.
You people need to stop making excuses for her. She doesn’t deserve your support any more than she deserves mine.
So, Lisa, do you think that flagburning should be a federal crime?
tanbark,
You were using Goldwater et al as the fine exemplars of bi-partisanship necessary to counteract Clinton and making the claim that the 9 GOP congressmen were following in that example. which you immediately noted failed in its purpose.
There were historic gains in the House for the Dems in ‘74 and ‘76 with a lot of entrenched Rs losing their seats over their extended support for Nixon.
Carter’s win was helped along by the Ford pardon of Nixon but was also helped along by the ludicrous nature of some of Ford’s policies (Remember WIN?) and his gaffe about Poland being free.
All I ask you to do is hold ALL candidates to the SAME standard. If you are holding Senator Clinton accountable for her support to Lieberman in the primary, hold Obama to that same standard. Same with war support. Same with dealing with corporations.
Otherwise, you are letting your hate blind you to reality.
Obama endorses Lieberman for senate
Ford was also actively targeted by the wing of the party which is in control now, and which eventually gave us Reagan. They damaged him so badly in the primaries that he had to fight to get his own party behind him in the general. They were, at the time, quite proud of the fact that they wouldn’t let the moderates get any purchase.
Perhaps you need to examine why her support for Lamont, even while other Democrats shunned him, still gets you so riled up.
She embraced him and threw her support, not only in words but ACTION, to get him elected. While other Democrats ran in the other direction. She knew that Republicans would support Lieberman and there was a good chance he’d be back in the Senate. We all knew that was a possibility.
Again, nothing short of perfect record will satisfy you.
Dakine@134;
Good job. Let’s make him pay for it, too.
Just like with Clinton, by then, Iraq had lonnng had “CLUSTERFUCK!!!” pulsating in the sky over Baghdad like it was a giant neon sign.
He didn’t have the courage and intellectual honesty to then name it for what it was.
But I don’t think he campaigned by Lieberman’s side, and I don’t think he voted for the Lieberman-Kyle amendment.
Here’s a question; did he support making flagburning a federal crime?
Did he speak out in favor of the surge?
Did he go hang with O’Reilly and the FoxNews birthday crowd?
Did he let Murdoch do a fundraiser for him?
Get the answers to these, and let’s talk about who deserves our support.
And while you’re at it, see if you can get Clinton to just directly mouth those three little words: “I was wrong.”
BTW, DaKine, you didn’t answer about the Flagburning bill.
You for that? :o)
‘gurll@136; was that just a mistake? If it wasn’t, her support for Lamont doesn’t get me riled up, for the simple reason that she didn’t support him when it counted. If she’d campaigned for Lamont, he might have pounded Lieberman right out of the notion that he could run as an independent. He caught a lot of shit for doing it, but none from Hillary, as far as I know.
But the bottom line is she did jackshit for Lamont until she absolutely had to. After supporting Lieberman against him in the primary, she had no choice but to help him when Lieberman came back to run as an independent. If she’d sat that out, she’d have been a political leper.
Which, my 2c, with her supporting Lieberman in the primary against a good antiwar candidate, and with nearly 3,000 of our troops already dead at that point, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis; in my book, she already was. And is.
You obviously didn’t read my response. She is triangulating on that one by supporting a flag burning bill, knowing it has already been declared unconstitutional in order to block attempts at a flag burning amendment which she is against.
I’ll let ya know about Obama and O’Reilly after the craziness from this weekend plays itself out.
But honestly, each and every candidate, and I include Edwards with all the votes he now calls “mistakes” have large amounts of baggage.
Hillary goes to a reception for Fox News 10th anniversary. Well Fox News IS a major employer in her state. Does Edwards go to receptions at Wachovia or Bank of America? Does Obama go to receptions for Tribune Corp? Do you expect all politicians to never go to anything where there might be political enemies around?
And Obama just claims to not support things. He then either doesn’t show up to vote or votes “present”. I think I do prefer a candidate who actually shows up for the vote, even if they vote differnetly than I would prefer.
But since we all know that your analysis and methods are so far stronger than mine or others, I guess I just have to bow to your infinite moral superiority and judgment.
Don’t have time to read all of the above. Matthews is a fat assed white jerk. Hope that is not too awful to get posted. I am an old white female and have contributed to Obama twice, the last time this week, but if in NH would have voted for Hill just to piss off the idiots.
So does this mean you won’t do jackshit for our Democratic Presidential nominee if it’s Hillary?
Gurrl@136;
“again, nothing short of perfect record will satisfy you.”
No, I’m not dissatisfied with Clinton because she climbed into bed with bush and his bloody neo-cons once. She didn’t get OUT of bed with them until the mid-terms, when she saw the political handwriting on the wall and quickly discovered her inner-antiwar self.
Go back to 117 and start bringing up all those little specifics, and if you like I’ll go get some more.
Hey, do you think that the Iraq government hunkered down in the green zone behind it’s desks, is to be blamed for “not doing enough”?
I ask because that’s become one of the main exculpatory bushCo talking points; blaming the wogs for not getting with the bushCo program. Would you like to see a clip of Hillary parroting it? You have but to ask.
This is not a case of me dissing a good progressive because she wandered off the reservation once or twice. For most of the past five years, she’s been an out and out bushCo warpimp.
you might find this interesting. it’s about ford
http://aud1.kpfa.org/data/20080102-Wed1300.mp3
Dakine@139; horsefeathers.
You guys are pissing and moaning to the high heavens about the job that Matthews did on her, and now you’re excusing her kissing rightwing butt by saying that because Fox is centered in N.Y. it’s cool for her to go schmooze with them?
Do you not see how lame that is? Fox was tearing Clinton ass while Matthews was crapping yellow, journalistically speaking.
“…your analysis and methods are far stronger than mine…”
I would have to agree, if this is all you got. :o)
attacking her for the crock of shit tears was part of the act. all they do is push whats on the paper in front of them. do you really think matthews decides who to attack? come on. these guys are highly paid media whores and will do anything they are told. and i do mean anything.
It may be because we pretty much don’t expect anything different from Fox and for whatever reasons, we do still have faint hopes that MSNBC might actually act like a legitimate news organization.
And why shouldn’t Clinton schmooze with Fox in NY. Because they trash her on the air? She’d never appear at any news org if that is the only criteria for her to appear or not to appear. And I do seem to recall her showing up and appearing on Matthews’ show as well as with Punkinhaid and other shows from the other networks.
Aand HORRORS! She’s accepted campaign contributions from Rupert Murdoch.
She’s a politician. Better than many. Not as good as some others. She’s not the devil or whatever your pejorative of choice is today. She’s a human being who has faults. Since we know you’re perfect in all ways then that’s it.
For Dakine and Gurrl, and Lisa, and anyone else supporting Hillary Clinton for president:
There is nothing you can point to about John Edwards or Barak Obama which is even remotely close to the things that Hillary Clinton has done to aid and abet george bush and the republicans, especially in helping them create and sustain their miserable, worse-than-useless war.
If you claim otherwise, then put up the points and the information supporting your claim. If you can’t do that, then maybe you should stop your blind allegiance to Clinton and consider supporting another candidate.
Or, you can put up the things about her that you admire, and tell us all how those translate into making her a good and successful presidential nominee for us.
(Psssst! Just because the asshats whose votes she has been so foolishly chasing, hate her, does not qualify her for the presidency.)
i think hill and bill have been making deals with the devil since the good old arkansas days.
“And why shouldn’t Clinton schmooze with Fox? Because they trash her on the air?”
On that one, alone, I could just rest my case for how rediculous the arguments supporting her are, but I’d like to ask:
Why shouldn’t she schmooze with Matthews, he only trashed her on the air, too.
Can you explain the differences between O’Reilly and Matthews, that make it alright for her to hang with Bill, but not Chris?
I REALLY want to hear this. :o)
See, that’s part of your problem. You assume that because I don’t blindly hate Senator Clinton and am willing to accept that she might be the candidate (and may even be a good one), that I am a supporter of hers with no questions. But again, you seem to have missed my statements that my preferred candidate has dropped out. As it stands right now, I have not made a choice.
But I might just be driven to support someone other than your selection. I’ve paid attention to what the candidates have said AND done. And I do disagree that Senator Clinton has been that much worse on the invasion and occupation than Senator Obama and Senator Edwards have been.
Did you miss the fact that she has appeared on the Matthews shows? I don’t know what cocktail parties she may go to in DC or NY. I do recall the Fox News 10 anniversary because so many people have been horrified by the fact she went there. Did you see her hanging with O’Reilly? I didn’t as I wasn’t there. She’s a POLITICIAN. She CAMPAIGNS. And she does it PLACES AND WITH PEOPLE I WOULD NOT DEAL WITH. Which makes her a standard politician.
I’ve never accused her of being satanic. Just that she’s sold out for conservative votes, and has helped bush create and sustain the worst foreign policy decision in our history.
Also, showing up on Matthews show was air time,and she knew she was in for a tussel, and could give and take. Sucking up to Fox and Murdoch was just more triangulating, of the worst and most corrupt sort.
The simple truth is that O’Reilly and Fox have made a living flaying the hide off she and her family for nearly two decades, and you excuse her genuflecting to them with a hand wave. And you do this at the same time you are in high dudgeon for Matthews’ doing EXACTLY the same thing.
It’s the kind of hypocrisy that she would understand and applaud.
You’re making an assumption about who I support. I really don’t know yet.
What I do know is I’ll support the Democratic nominee.
I find it interesting that you can not say the same.
This whole discussion concerning Senator Clinton is getting out of hand. She is a professional politician, very tough, and carries the burden of her past like all of us. I think that past, which has singed her, makes her a less viable Presidential candidate than the two other contenders whom I prefer to her. But like most of us on this board I’ll vote for her if she is nominated. She will be competent. What she doesn’t have as a consequence of what she and her husband have been through is authority, and it is doubtful she will ever have it. The rethugs did a good job on that couple, and they would do it to anyone liberal who gets in their way. The problem for them right now is that their ammunition is spent. They used it all up on the Clintons and don’t have anything really heavy to bear on Edwards or Obama.
To my mind it’s that simple. Nothing a matter with Clinton, but she’s been done in. Henry Clay never got to be President either. It’s not the end of the world.
tonight tweety announced he was saw obama for the first time in NH except he covered him live in Springfield when he announced
Well, you’ve accused her of everything else. I’d like to readcomments from someone else besides you. You have monopolized this thread and several of the preceding ones. We get it that you don’t like Hillary. You have made your point (about seventeen times now). Please go read a book.
is your only source for info on elite politicians and their vetting process the msm?
Okay, Dakine. Why do you defend this “standard politician” so much?
Why are you not outraged that she’s running to be our nominee?
Bush and his crew, with whom she has been in the sack for most of these past five years, are certainly “standard politicians”.
And the people who’ve helped them drag us to the brink of a corporate 4th Reich are also “standard politicians”.
Boy, are Pelosi and Reid evermore “standard politicians”. :o) Would you like to see them as our ticket? :o)
I’m enjoying backing a Clinton defender into the kind of cynic’s phone booth that has a sign over it saying “Go along to get along!” which, again, Pelosi may have tattoed on her bicep.
Woops! almost forgot; do you think we should blame the Iraqi government “for not doing enough?” Again, it’s one of bushCo’s fave excuses, and Hillary has toted the hod for them by parroting it.
How say you? Is it the wogs fault that they won’t sign away a good chunk of their oil to bushCo, and pass that Kumbayah (bush and Hillary both hope!) legislation?
I mean, what ingrates! Only a million or so of them have died in Operation Enduring Shitmire. I think it’s great that the candidate you’re defending has seen fit to scold them for not bending over and spreading their cheeks more than bush has already made them do. (With, again, Clinton’s unapologetic help…)
Now that I’ve got you down to the least-common-multiple for “standard politician” candidates, whom do you stand up for next? If we start in on McCain, are you going to explain that his bragging about supporting the war is just the viagra kicking in a little?
Will you tell us that his hot, man-on-man photo-op with junior was noting more than McCain expressing his sensitive inner man, and if we look closely enough, we can see some moisture in his eyes?
Dude, you are stretched like a rubber band. I’ve got to get something to eat. Don’t break, now. :o)
tanbark – You’ve answered every post but mine.
Again, does this mean you won’t do jackshit for our Democratic Presidential nominee if it’s Hillary?
You are rabid in your hate for Hillary – no one here is and that just has you crazed doesn’t it? Kind of odd for a progressive to not support the Democratic nominee, even if it’s Hillary.
Are you sure you might not like it better at Hot Air?
I have monopolized this thread?
Marilyn you are, of course, free to post anything you want to in Clinton’s defense. Nothing I have said is stopping you from doing that.
As I posted earlier, anyone that would like to list the things that put Obama and Edwards at Clinton’s level of support for the war, and for her stupidity in going after conservative votes that have never existed for her and never will, please do so.
Or, again, you can be positive, and post the reasons why you think she would make a winning nominee for us.
(If your reasons shake out to something like:
“She’s a woman named Clinton and I’m so tired of seeing the right and a lot of the center beat her like a rented mule, that she could be campaigning in an SS Madchen uniform, and I’d vote for her.” then you might want to make up something instead. :o) )
Why do I have these recurring images of a mobius strip?
because if Escher had drawn this conversation it would have ants crawling on it?
Have rightwingers found this site? I thought we were safe here.
Why should I be outraged that Senator Clinton is running for President? That’s what the primaries and caucuses are for, to discern a nominee for the Democratic Party nomination for the Presidency of the United States.
I actually think Bush and Cheney are both uncommon politicians who have no clue about the reality most folks have to address.
I think Reid and Pelosi ARE standard politicians who have spent way too much time inside the beltway.
I believe the Iraqis are doing the best that they can and that no blame attaches to them because of the untenable positions they were placed in by the invasion and occupation. I also believe things will get mildly better for them if/when all our troops are out of there. There will most likely be some level of killing of minorities when we leave, until such time as a new dictator comes along and re-establishes control by brute force. I just hope it is not a religious dictatorship. BTW you might be somewhat better served in your perspective if you did not use that ethnic slur that you’ve used.
I will stand up for Senator McCain in that I respect his service to the country, even though I do not agree with him on very many issues. I find I don’t agree with ANYONE on all the issues. And sometimes, when select individuals are in some level of agreement with my perspective, it forces me to re-examine my beliefs on those issues.
Last I looked, you do not set the agenda for posting comments. I think I’ve responded to you before in other threads; my bottom line is that I will support the Democratic nominee. I’m not going to indulge your ??strategy?? to answer your questions. My comment tonight is just what I said … you’re monopolizing the thread and saying the same thing over and over.
Gurrl, you get the last shot, and I’m sorry; I just missed your question.
If we’re idiots enough to nominate Clinton I’ll hold my nose and vote for her, probably weeping tears of frustration while I do it.
As for my…rabidness..(rabidity?) that stems in part from watching a bunch of people, her defenders, do exactly the same thing that the american people did what bush led them over the cliff.
I think Clinton’s reward for helping bush create and sustain the war, was that SHE got a truckload of the same type of WMD/Al Queada camp/Yellowcake koolaid that bush and his neo-cons brewed up to such good effect.
And because she’s that lady named Clinton, you guys just do not want to deal with the facts of what she’s been doing for the past 60-odd months, and she’s got you quaffing the purple stuff just like Joe and Jane sixpak did it, 5 years ago.
Considering her incredible negatives for the general election, it’s ENOUGH to make an old Firehound foam at the mouth.
Woof! Y’all. :o)
Well, I sure don’t set the agenda either Marilyn, and there’s not a thing to make you read my posts, or anyone else’s for that matter.
But evidently, you do.
As for my being a plant or a troll, I will say this, I have been a good lefty for all of my adult life and for you to infer that because I post the specifics of what Clinton has done, I’m a right winger, should tell you something about yourself, if you’re honest enough to admit it. :o)
Sorry, that was ‘gurrrl. Hard to keep up with the posts sometimes. :O)
Yeah, but which one is the “mother”?
Ok, I stand corrected. You’re not a rightwing bully, you’re just bully.
And I cleaned that up for the moderator.
Latest FabLog: The Crying Game
I take it that your inference (one implies; the other infers) concerning right wing troll were not meant in reference to my comment. No apology necessary.
I do skip over your postings (after the first 20 or so, they are the same old sameold).
However, when every other comment is in reply to you, it is difficult to come to any conclusion other than the one I cited earlier.
Have a good night.
journalism incest
http://radarcontact.blogspot.c…..ncest.html
Please accept the gratitude of the mods for whatever crossed your mind but never made it to your keyboard.
Sorry, been away for awhile.
Ron Paul News, July 12, 2007
Boehner calls Anti-War ‘Wimps’ but He Cried on House Floor
Filed under: News — jellygal @ 10:24 am
Yesterday, minority leader Boehner called colleagues who favor a change in Iraq ‘wimps.’
We just want to remind everyone, this is the very man who cried on the house floor over Iraq dollars in May.
———
There’s one. Definite criticism. Now it’s not nobody.
That took less than 2 minutes to find.
When you present your position in terms of absolutes, you leave no margin for error. In this case, if it’s even one more than nobody, your claim is wrong.
What I’m seeing in several threads now is that we’re right back to where we were before the NH primary. It’s the Obama and Clinton (the two superstars) supporters bashing the one another’s candidate. They are well understod, have records, personalities, flaws, policies, etc. But, it leads nowhere because of the balance which exists.
Yes, Obama supporters may say they can eke out a small win. But, he also claims to be able to unite the country and this kind of divisive win doesn’t unite. It divides the Democratic party and leaves him vulnerable in a general election.
I merely suggest supporting Edwards as someone who isn’t so divisive and who can unite people.
If we remain divided (whether 33,33,33 or 40,40,20) it’s still a divided party and that’s dangerous for the presidential race and the Congressional races. This is not good.
Glad you took that 2 minutes, but after reading Jane’s comment at #121:
I’m not finding the word “criticism” in anything Jane said and, since you provide no link, I can’t tell if the article questions Boehner’s competence or his ability to handle stress.
Having said that, I have no question about his lack of competence, with or without tears on his part.
RagingGurrrlNYC,
There absolutely are actual progressives who vehemently oppose Hillary Clinton. We’ve all be told to “get behind and push” for the selected nominee prior to the actual first vote being cast. Hillary was the “front runner” before that, and in fact, the “only runner”.
You’re just now hearing the objections, the long held strong objections, because you’re under the impression that this, and a few other, forums for discussion have been open. They haven’t. They are a little more now thanks to Digby letting it roll all along, regardless of who she supports.
I’d like to know if you’ve ever actually posted up against real righties? You know, called them on their crap directly? Just wondering. This is nothing compared to what we, and especially, our chosen candidate will face in the general.
I think we just experienced the shitstorm of wasted energy over a well timed tear instead of the legitimate shitstorm over actual issues that will ensue in the general. They will try to make it about personalities, the past, race, gender and once again the American people and the Constitution will take it in the shorts. So really, this is nothing compared to what we’re going to have to actually fight for in the general.
I don’t think Hillary gives us an advantage there. She’s said it herself, “I listened and I found my voice”……. Well, hellloooooo. She just proves she’s been deaf to reality around her. Too little, too late I’d say.
Oh, and FDL has long been a staunch Hillary supporter in case you weren’t aware. Really does a fine job keeping it about Hillary no matter what she’s doing. All Hillary all the time. Everything revolves around Hillary. It’s quite nicely done, I will say. Kudos to FDL for that. :-)
I don’t want to hand this one to the pubbies. I’m not for Clinton. Never have been. You can call me a sexist now, or a misogynist because of my speaking out against her. Next, you can call me a racist for my great concern over Senator Obama’s mentor connection if you’d like. There is nothing you can call me that the righties haven’t all ready…. and for years.
I’m just not willing to keep to the whiney victim roll so cleverly carved out for the Democrats over these last 7 years. It’s not a position of power, nor strength.
Tanbark is not a righty, nor a sexist, nor a misogynist. He’s right, though. Good luck with your decision.
:-)
MarkH, No a divided party is not good. And neither is a party who cannot let go of the past …… and honestly seem to want to repeat it.
I believe this is the definition of insanity: “Doing the same thing over and and over, expecting different results”.
I just want us to progress….. being progressives and all.
Isn’t “questioning their competence or their ability to handle stress” criticism? I will stick my neck out and say, yes, it is.
In the example I posted, which is the whole post, clearly Boehner’s position is being challenged on the basis of his having cried. Here’s the link:
http://ronpaulpledge.com/wordpress/?p=15
I’m sure there are more examples; it’s a big world with lots of crazy people.
Now, before we drift away from it, let me restate my point.
Claiming that either everybody or nobody does anything which is possible to do leaves no room for error. If you claim everybody does it, and one person in existence doesn’t, your claim is inaccurate. if you claim nobody does it, and one person does, you claim is inaccurate.
I really hate to be so picky, but it concerns me when people use hyperbole to make their point. That shouldn’t be necessary if their point can be validated with reasonably accurate claims.
It had been necessary for me to sit through hours of Fox news for my job, and I got sick of hearing claims validated with hyperbolic claims like, “everybody knows” and “nobody disagrees with that”. It’s the bread and butter of those who cannot validate their claims.
I want to interact with people who base their claims reasonably.
Now, just to be fair, I have spent more time on this, and here is some info to support Jane’s claim that much progress has been made in the way we view the competency of men who cry.
From Adult Crying – A Biopsychosocial Approach, By A. J. J. M. Vingerhoets, Randolph R. Cornelius:
“Judging from both the popular and scientific literature from the past two decades, perceptions of men’s crying may be undergoing a profound change. Men who cry are apparently not as feminine and their tears are no longer seen as a sign of weakness.”
http://books.google.com/books?…..#PPA166,M1
Notice how this passage avoids hyperbole by use of words like “may” and “apparently”, and avoids the inaccuracies inherent in absolutes, like “every man” or “nobody”.
That’s all I’m trying to say.
Very well said…and my condolences about the downsides of your job.
Former job, all thanks to the universe.
Don’t make me go back there!
I glide over one little letter and it completely changes present to past tense.
Glad to hear all that’s behind you now…have the nightmares subsided yet?
Yes. I’m o.k. My job was really quite mundane, at a local Fox affiliate, in engineering.
I was just recalling when, a couple years ago, I passed on the opportunity of a lifetime.
On occasion, if Fox conducted a live interview with someone in our vicinity, we brought them into our studio and sent the signal back to New York (my job), where they would appear in that box on the screen with whatever Fox personality (now that’s hyperbole) whose show it was. Rarely, the show host was in town and it went the other way around.
I was coming out of the men’s room one evening and spotted Shawn Hannity approaching the door, which I let shut behind me. It wasn’t much, but I did get that look of distain usually reserved for the most despised of liberals who were mistaken enough to go on the show. Thing is, it would have been a cinch do deck him on the spot.
I must remain satisfied with just imagining how sweet that would have been.
Matthews has got to go. A pompuous, pampered priviledged _rick.
Mercy Marcy, I just wish the progressive blogs would stop assailing the Tweet’s of our lives for their transgressions and get ON with saving the world, which SHOULD be the mission of the progressive blogs.
I agree with you. Ignore the Tweet’s. They are beltway elitist’s, paid by beltway elitist’s, chanting to the MSM.
And why Jane, and FDL, spends ANY time worrying about Tweety, when there are so many OTHER progressive and URGENT issues before us, I just don’t know.
We are all adults. We know the MSM is stacked against the progressive cause. It’s been taught to me since I took my first phreakin junior college media course in the early 70’s. Enuff already, with the shock and concern for a corrupted media, government, and republic. Let’s REALLY change things! (Kuch)
We know they (MSM) are bought and paid for by the same money, PAC’s and 1% beltway elite that own our government, our courts, our businesses, and our lives.
So why, FDL, why, do you continue to Harpie on the Tweety’s, when we ALL know it’s a rigged deck?
And you ONLY do it in defense of Shilary. (wags his progresive finger at FDL for deceiving the readers).
Please, FDL, enough of the Shilary.
Could you PLEASE adopt a real progressive stance for we the people? The masses?
Please?
We CAN’T put a stop to anything the MSM does!! It’s a phreakin fallacy!!
The MSM is bought and paid for! SIMPLE!
Back up, find the precept that goes with “We’re fighting Goliath” and then, figger out how to duke the odds.
For cryin out loud people . . . it’s time to stop whinin about the media, yer soundin as bad as the right wing who says the MSM is liberal biased!!!
It’s time to open yer windows, n shout it out loud.
It’s Network Time.
N for FDL to use Teh Tweet Factor, and complain about gender bashing, when we ALL know the entire MSM is right wing, is a horrible waste of progressive wanna be blog space.
For DAWG’S sake people, there’s a revolution happening, and I SWEAR, at this point, FDL and you wanna be progressives are gonna kill any forward motion we might have to save this Republic, the middle class, and the masses.
Yer all killin me.
-Larue, The Progressive
One last comment. If Sen. Clinton is the candidate of the MIC (which I assume to mean military-industrial complex), why on earth would the people at MSNBC be SO hostile to her? Afterall, MSNBC is totally owned by GE, one of the world’s biggest weapons manufacturers. That’s counterintuitive. Perhaps it is because under former Pres. Clinton, they lost many battles? So perhaps Sen. Clinton isn’t their tool. Just something to think about. See here for good information on who gives and who gets: http://www.opensecrets.org
I had hopes that this might be a thread where the following message would not be needed but, sadly, the time has come to say:
Debating the issues is encouraged, insulting other commenters will result in the mods removing your comment from the thread.
Thanks
I can live with Hillary going down after a long, hard fight. But to see her humiliated, hounded from the race by pundit jackals, and gang-banged by her male opposition would have sent a very bad message to America’s women.
I wonder that the folks that dislike (or hate) Hillary Clinton so much do not see that the outrageous unfairness and the sexist remarks made about her force many bloggers and posters to defend her, even if they don’t like her, out of a sense of fail play. It isn’t just that Tweety is an idiot, although he his, or that his obsession with Clinton has become boring, although it has, it’s that were this degree of rampant misogony directed at any other woman the same people would be appalled. Thus many liberal bloggers a defending a woman they don’t even like because they will not accept sexist behavior no matter who the recipient is. It the Hillary Haters would just shut up, or better yet just state their facts fairly and without a gender bias we could all go back to touting our favorite candidate. Like I want to do. Go John Edwards!
Okay, thought I would try it again with my brain working in sync with my fingers.
I wonder that the folks that dislike (or hate) Hillary Clinton so much do not see that the outrageous unfairness and the sexist remarks made about her force many bloggers and posters to defend her, even if they don’t like her, out of a sense of fair play. It isn’t just that Tweety is an idiot, although he his, or that his obsession with Clinton has become boring, although it has, it’s that were this degree of rampant misogyny directed at any other woman many of the same people would be appalled. Thus many liberal bloggers a defending a woman they don’t even like because they will not accept sexist behavior no matter whom the recipient is. It the Hillary Haters would just shut up, or better yet just state their facts fairly and without a gender bias we could all go back to touting our favorite candidate. Like I want to do. Go John Edwards!
God, I am seriously in love with Rachel Maddow. She’s my political crush (Yes, I realize she’s not exactly lusting after the menfolk but you can’t blame a guy).
Enough with the dumbass bigots whose favorite form of hate is misogyny (For the life of me, I can’t imagine the Times allowing an op-ed columnist spewing even homophobic nonsense the way Dowd spewed misogyny; apparently that form of intolerance remains a big seller as her piece is currently the most e-mailed article).
Mkolb, you make the mistake of thinking that conservative anger at Hillary is rational. It is not. She’s Bill Clinton’s wife, and she didn’t dump him when he left office. She was outspoken and rightly so, on some important issues when she was first lady, instead of being into floral arrangements. She has been a good feminist, for which I respect her.
But these things do not automatically entitle her to the democratic nomination.
She has also supported some of the foullest things that george bush has done in his 7 years, and she has never taken the point on going after him for doing them. And it’s too late now to do it. Which is why she regularly gets her butt kicked on progressive blogs.
What could be fairer?
Tweety doesn’t realize the more he attacks Hillary, the more the general public will rush, in pity, to her defense. How do they defend her? They vote for the poor old thing. Keep it up and we’ll sadly have Hillary as our next president. America loves the underdog (or whoever they determine to be the underdog).
deandra! Bullseye!!!!! That’s exactly what Tweety and faux news are doing. Its been obvious from jump. They want her in the general so they can unleash all manner of bill clinton’s …. er…. package escapades and once again ignore the issues, very real issues, at hand. Its what they do. Good for ratings, just like jerry springer. No value at all, but ratings. Ratings is great for advertisers. Who are the advertisers? Obvious answer.
Its exactly what happened with the well timed tear business. The “we’ll show them!” snit fittery vote button was pushed and the pay off was a win. With hillary its always got to be a vote in defense of her “honor” because she’s right in lock step with gwbushco and what’s she going to say?….. “Vote for me because I want to do Iran… Because I want to privatize SS….” and so on? There is no middle of the road here because to get to the middle, we have to go harrrrrrd left. She can’t do that with any ligitimacy…. so she uses a tearful ploy…. that worked. :-(……
With Hillary it has to be about her, and people make sure to keep it about her, not issues, not her position on issues. Not her proven record of supporting gwbush. Her very presence in this election is a big red herring that serves to obscure the real issues.