Just as I did for Iowa, I have tried to gather all of the closing argument ads for the Presidential candidates in New Hampshire today. The number of folks in the race has been winnowed down a bit — but there are some candidates who haven’t added any new ads to their repertoire — or at least haven’t added them to their YouTube page — and I’ve tried to note that where I saw that.
First, for comparison’s sake, here is the post on the ads from Iowa. For our NH readers, please feel free to chime in with your thoughts on what you liked most in terms of ads and campaigning as well as speeches and issue discussions and such. And what you thought was poorly done as well. Anything in particular you would have liked to see more from the candidates — or less? Do tell. Now, on to the New Hampshire offerings…and some first impressions as I view them.
Democrats:
– Clinton campaign: This has a much more "up energy" feel to it than the one from Iowa. The tone of the voiceover is light, energetic and positive. It emphasizes experience, but also that she will do the work to make change happen. Definitely trying to downplay the Iowa results, while hitting notes that may play better to a NH audience who might be comparison shopping the candidates — the up-energy feel of this is designed, in part, to appeal to the leaning Obama on buzz but not sold on ability to follow through crowd, I’d bet.
– Edwards campaign: On a surface look, he looks great in this ad — passionate, upbeat, and self-confident. The background music is cheery, and the blue background is a good choice. He hits the fight for the middle class, fight against corporate greed message…but I’m left wanting more. I know it’s a quick ad, and there isn’t room for a laundry list of things he wants to do, but I would have liked something other than just fight — fight for what, exactly? I know what he’s trying to get at, because I’ve reviewed so much policy information from these candidates, but I’d like to hear him allude to it a bit more in the ad. And to talk about us all working on this together.
– Obama campaign: This says several things at once to me. First, that he’s going after all those former McCain independents that look like they are ripe for the picking. Second, that he’s moving into Edwards’ territory with regard to lobbyist messaging. Third, that he’s confident and now running a front-runner, patriotic background music, "I’m a winner" type ad — and that he was feeling that way before Iowa results even got cold. It’s a good ad, full of energy. Be interested to see what you all think.
– Did not find anything new for Richardson, Gravel or Kucinich. If anyone knows of new ads from any of them, please let me know. Here were my finds from Iowa, just as a reminder.
Republicans:
– McCain campaign: It’s a softer, better lighted McCain than the smartass you saw in the last debate. And he wants you to yearn for the days of "Morning in America." Except it seems a bit too rehearsed, and a soft McCain isn’t really what I’m shopping for this year.
– Romney campaign: Washington sucks. And Mitt Romney is just the guy to make them square away, tow the line, and put on a sweater vest.
– The Guiliani, Huckabee, Hunter, Paul and Thompson campaigns appear to be the same as Iowa. If anyone sees something fresh from them, please let me know.
What do you all think? Do tell…
(NOTE: This doesn’t mean there may not be new ads for some of the candidates. It may simply mean that their internet teams haven’t yet uploaded the new ad content to YouTube. It’s been a quick sprint for a lot of these campaigns from Iowa to New Hampshire, and some of the candidates are running fairly bare bones operations at this stage. That’s one factor to keep in mind among many as you are looking at this.)
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Christy!
Christy!
hiya, CHS!
One advantage of living where I do is that there is zero risk of having to watch a campaign ad from any of them.
BTW do you see any set of realistic circumstances where Edwards has a shot?
The Obama ad really strikes a chord with me. I recently listened to Kennedy’s inagural speech and was struck by how powerful words can be. Given the absence of inspiring rhetoric in the last I can’t remember how long, maybe inspirational amounts to something.
one of many advantages to giving away my tv is no advertisements, including political, unless i go search for them. And with brave souls at the Lake willing to watch them for me ….
Well, Obama looks too young for a heart attack and Hillary is probably healthy too,maybe a dinner with bad clams?
I dunno.
Christy. I think I missed it. Did you feature Huckie? Point out where I goofed.
Thank you. But beware the Clintons when they have to confront they are losing power long term. The Clintons have been trying for more since 2000 and when this loss gets in their face they will panic and act impulsively. The Clintons will show no regard for the democratic or Democratic party. So this ad does not display the pull to the cliff that the Clintons will make, coming up.
Whoever wins the Demo vote in the NH primary, we just hope it’s the best person for this nation and the world. I am going to refrain from blasting any of the Demos until after the polls are closed. And we will be supporting the Democratic nominee in the general election no matter who she or he is.
We are convinced this country needs to replace maniacs like this:
AP – President Bush said Tuesday that Iran’s confrontation with the U.S. Navy ships in the Persian Gulf was a “provocative act.”
“It is a dangerous situation,” he said in a White House news conference. “They should not have done it, pure and simple. . . . I don’t know what their thinking was, but I’m telling you what my thinking was. I think it was a provocative act.”
Hi Christy!
I think it was GregB who said he was going to, and I quote, a Bong Hits for Gravel meeting. maybe he knows something on the latest from that camp.
Very well stated, kiddo.
I just shudder to think what he’s really up to in the ME. His whole tenure has been psychotic.
Bush sure is a maniac. But what he said there seems reasonable. I don’t know what you would want him to say. Multiple boats were speeding towards and around the navy ships sending radio signals saying that they will blow them up in 1 minute. I would say that’s provocative. Nothing to go to war over but provocative none the less.
I think all of the Democratic adds were good. Edwards was a little more accusatory than the last one, with the “corporate Democrats” term for Obama and Clinton, and I liked it less.
Actually, I sincerely hope that there aren’t too many voters in New Hampshire or anywhere else who vote based primarily on paid ads.
Want more war? Want a severe recession? Vote Republican.
FWIW Raven, your handling of the unpleasantries two threads back was very impressive. Well played.
What kind of boats did the Iranians have?
The problem I have with this episode is I wasn’t there, and I trust nothing that comes out of the Bush mouth, or our Republican controlled so called, Intel. ;0)
Here is the Max Blumenthal Huckabee ad -Mike Huckabee: Radical Cleric
Little ones like the ones that blew up the Cole. They are playing videos of it on the news right now.
Compared to the U.S. Navy, the Iranians might as well have had row boats. ;0)
I agree. The Iranians need to enforce a little discipline. This is the kind of lunacy that could get a lot of people killed. As it is, the Iranians are in a good position regionally and internationally. This is the kind of incident that could blow that for them. It just goes to show that while Bush is an idiot, he is not the only idiot.
I’m thoroughly mystified by the “up energy” comment about the Clinton campaign. The last 48 hours have been a study in “oh shit” campaign tactics.
You are correct sir. He doesn’t hold the patent on stupid.
Yes siree folks, the Iranians are just begging for the most militarily powerful country in the world’s history to attack them.
You mean like this?
http://www.crooksandliars.com/…..airy-tale/
Can’t imagine why they didn’t edit Bill’s rant into a 30sec ad. I mean, most people don’t like college students anyway, and Bill smacked this kid down about something the kid didn’t even ask. What a class act. He’s losing it.
It’s very refreshing for me to see the Clinton false verneer peeled away, and their truly odious sides are out there for all to see now.
I like Edward’s message, his delivery though could use some help. I do like it that he is talking directly to the audience and not a bunch clips edited together like Hilliary and Obama.
Obama has crowned himself king and his message is very current with the information that is out there with independents and Republicans giving him support or serious consideration. It’s a strong commercial I think to seal his win today.
Aw schucks, Johnny you’re so cute. /snark
And Mittens well I just can’t stand to look at him so I stopped.
Not all the Iranians but some stupid fools, yes.
“enforce a little discipline”. Like Mr. Bush has done in Iraq?
CBS says of Huckabee’s pitch in NH,
If I were Edwards, I don’t think I’d be too happy at the comparison.
On the polls with two friend:
- car pool buddy: Obama
- his wife: Clinton
- me: Edwards
Was quite a fun trip with them.
Oh, turnout is huge in my voting place. Already past last years total.
Does a large NH voter turnout favor any particular Demo?
You mean no battleships, no destroyers, no PTs? Wow, our navy must have been really scared !
No, as in having an operating chain of command so that Iran’s leaders don’t find themselves in a war they have so far successfully avoided.
We in this house consider George W. Bush to be the most dangerous individual in the world. A mega-terrorist, if you will.
All we’re saying is that I don’t know what you’d expect Obama, Edwards, or Clinton to say. It was provocative. That’s it. Not saying to go to war over it.
It’s gonna take quite some doing to turn two speedboats and a few boxes in the water 200 yards away from a couple Destroyers into a Gulf of Tonkin Incident… but it’ll be morbidly fascinating to watch ‘em try.
Ooops — sorry about that. Meant to include Huckabee in the list of folks who haven’t put any updated ads on their YouTube page since Iowa. That doesn’t mean that he or the other candidates don’t have new ads running in New Hampshire — they just haven’t updated their YouTube pages to reflect them if they are. Will fix that above…
Mitster’s ad is two minutes long??!!!
That must have cost a lot to air, not that he cares, I suppose. Problem is I’ll wager most people are like me and couldn’t wait for it to be over. What a bore.
There are stories of some polling places getting close to running out of ballots the turn out was so huge. Almost double what they were expecting.
The Iranian Navy is composed largely of relatively small vessels- but they are armed with surface to surface missles and torpedoes. They’re dangerous enough if they get the chance to strike first.
I’m interested in their version of events. Anyone seen it?
It favors the Demo of the future. New voters are usually young people who have been apathetic till now. If you’re asking which candidate benefits. Obama.
Well, it’s surely interesting that the only information our media are giving out on the incident with the Navy and the Iranians is coming from anonymous sources. That doesn’t give me any confidence in it. (Also I don’t think the Iranians are either stupid or foolish. I wish I could say as much for some of our leaders.)
swift ones?
USS Cole.
Record turnout now in Iowa and NH. This bodes well for Nov and More and Better Democrats, since whenever more people vote, more Democrats win.
And it’s just good for the Republic as more and more people get involved, and hopefully pay more attention from now on. This will greatly help the Netroots as well. YeeeHaw!
I was listening to Air America yesterday and heard a very good discussion about the need for the intel people to show evidence of what’s going on, not just a thirty second snip of what they want us to see. meaning videos and satellite pictures. IOW there should be plenty of info to share publicly and visually to make their case.
someone else (the host?) suggested going to Google Earth to take their own look-see.
While I doubt everything BushCo says, the fact that Iran did not deny the incident but merely said it was “not unusual” lends some credence that it happened. Probably a good sign that the USN officer in charge did not over react.
Juan Cole has a bit from the Iranian press. Seems that they were conducting war games. Imagine that…Persians conducting war games in the Persian Gulf. The very idea… ;)
Oops. talking about the Iranian/Navy thing. sorry for the o/t.
For Clinton’s ad, I thought that was pretty good. It’s very positive and highlights all of the right issues for voters. But I think the way it ended was even more important: she was smiling.
Now, there are studies about facial expressions and how you can tell when someone is sincere or lying and I have to tell you, that smile was the real deal. It’s because her whole face is engaged. A fake smile ends at the mouth but a real smile involves many more facial muscles. It make her look friendly. I liked it.
I haven’t but they have a history of local commanders with shit for brains doing things on their own.
I realized what you were saying. Are you prepared to say the events that supposedly unfolded in the Strait of Hormuz occurred exactly as the Bush Administration informed us? Given their track record on WMD’s, etc. And if this event did happen the way we are being told, why didn’t our Navy just swat these Iranian sea going gnats? I’m sorry. I just do not believe a thing that comes out the Bush, the Cheney, the Rove or the Rice mouths.
Iran incident video here
If it wasn’t unusual, then why is this the first one we’re hearing about?
+Agree with you, Christy. I believe Edwards problem has been his failure to provide variety of thought, emotion and tone in his presentations. I’ve been a strong supporter, and have liked his specific programs, but I am sorry to say that I think his days are numbered.
I didn’t see it that way. I thought he said what he thought to the students. He was not in the least patronizing, but treated them as equals. I would not have minded at all having my question answered as earnestly and straight forwardly if I had been a student in the audience.
Sounds like horse hockey. You don’t conduct war games by approaching war ships of unfriendly countries in a heavily traveled international water way. As I said, it is a good way to get a lot of people killed, spark a major international incident and possibly initiate a conflict neither side (OK aside from Dick Cheney and the Israelis) may want.
FWIW, it’s not the first time something like this has happened. Remember the British sailors that were held captive because their boat allegedly cruised into Iranian waters? There have been other incidents as well and, frankly, there were during th First Gulf War, too.
It’s not unusual to see either side play “chicken” with the other doing something provocative because they think the other side may be doing something as well.
Thanks Peterr – Duh more ahs listens to deezes guys on religion duh confuser ahs gets.
CBS news, Jan. 8, 2008
“Look at the history of our country, and consider the people who have been president of the United States,” Romney went on to say. “We’ve had people of very different faiths, and in each case they draw from the foundation of our Judeo-Christian philosophy.”
Golly! I didn’t know the Bible was philosophy. I thought it was a belief. If it’s philosophy, where’s the premise?
By any chance is there a difference in interpretation between the US and Iran w/r/t what “international waters” are? Wasn’t there a similar encounter with the British Navy last year?
Ha! We crossed.
I’m sure we could find a few more people who are hoping for conflict … those who would love to see Oil hit $200 @ barrel.
Edwards ad was good.
Reading the comments on below the youtube was a bit dispiriting.
ITA.
We’re supposed to try and avoid war. Not look for any excuse to start one. OK, so it may have been provocative. Heavy emphasis on the word “may”.
Hair trigger chimpy would love to start another war to take everyone’s mind off Iraq. And Afghanistan.
Huck was making so much sense before you injected logic into the argument … /s
Iran claims their waters extend farther than generally accepted.
I don’t understand how Obama, Edwards or Clinton crept into a discussion of the events in the Strait of Hormuz. I’m addressing the veracity of the Bush Administration and the trustworthyness of all Intel that emanates from GWB.
(per Juan Cole)
I agree it was a stupid stunt (and as Juan Cole says, not entirely unprecedented in the history of enemies at sea), but why on earth should the Iranians trust the purity of our intentions? And we don’t have a very good track record…see 1953.
Given how BushCo pushed to get the Revolutionary Guard declared a terrorist organization, there’s also a strong possibility they were doing a little pushback. “Hey, big US navy warships . . . here we are . . . you know, the big bad evil terrarists your boss warned you about!” It’s about “face” and reputation, and the RG is looking to boost theirs. Mostly, I think this is for domestic Iranian consumption. They can strut on the docks, saying “We tweaked their noses!”
The picture I get is a narrow lake and a bunch of guys on jet skis, playing chicken with a bunch of anglers in a big tricked-out bass boats over who gets to use the water. Then I picture them all with some high caliber weaponry, and cell phones to call in their friends with their weaponry. That’s when the picture ceases to be funny.
I’d hate to be the Navy commander dealing with it, though. Fire (or fire back), and you’re wagging the dog; ignore it, and you’re weak on terrror. That’s one way in which Bush’s politicization of the military is going to come back to haunt the Pentagon for at least a generation. It’s hard enough doing that job as it is, and BushCo’s made it exponentially rougher.
Sounds like Edwards still hasn’t gotten the vision thing yet. He needs to give voters a vision of the America that he is fighting for. I like the fighting part, and who he is fighting against, but I think the voters want to know what kind of America he is fighting for.
Bob in HI
One thing to remember here is that international waters or high seas is a zone where nations ultimately provide for their own security. That means provocative acts are treated very differently than those on land.
And the thread was to discuss what TV ads we like. Funny how it wanders…
So one possible interpretation might be that the Iranians thought the US ships were in Iranian waters, not international waters. Which would make the encounter defensive on Iran’s part, not offensive.
I’ve been wondering why he doesn’t talk more about education, for example. The work that their foundation has done in giving scholarships to rural poor kids in NC is amazing, and truly a pilot program that could be replicated across a lot of Appalachia for starters. I don’t know if there are prohibitions about talking about private versus public work like that in terms of political commercials (not an election lawyer — if anyone does know, please do share), but it seems to me that the best messages are the personal ones. The ones where we see a real glimpse of the candidate’s passion for a particular issue meshed with some real world glimpse of what they want to do…and who it could really lift up into the future.
The education issue is one of many that Edwards could talk about from personal experience, just as an example, or other aspects of poverty. Hillary Clinton could spend time talking about her work with at risk kids and the Children’s Defense Fund, which has been a passion of hers since her Watergate days and all through her time in Arkansas and beyond. Obama has issue of urban renewal and reaching out to folks on racial and economic grounds as well.
They could be using this time to educate the public not just about themselves, but about the values that the Democratic party ought to be fighting for — and that would be a very valuable use of time and money on these ads. Because what is coming out of the GOP ads, consistently, is a lot of fear, a whole lot of divide and conquer — especially the hateful stuff on immigration — and a lot of “who is your daddy?” authority figure crap. Countering that would be a great way to move us all forward.
Nothing to be sorry about, Christy. I’m amazed at all the accurate info you get in. Peterr just gave me some good info on the Huckabee NH campaign. Many thanks.
Perhaps if the traditional media had given him half the coverage of Clinton or Obama he might be in a better position. It’s so obvious that the media plays the role of filter for the masses giving only the message that the corporatists want the public to hear. To think we have a free press in the States is the height of delusion. What we have is an Military, Industrial, Media Complex.
Ok, I understand what Edwards was trying to accomplish but it was too wordy. I know that sounds shallow but I’m trying to imagine what a low info voter is seeing when these ads are on TV. He’s trying to be sincere but he’s using a very us vs. them rhetoric. If I were a low info voter, I’d think how is it that a rich lawyer can identify himself as an underdog?
For Obama’s ad, he’s hitting the bipartisan thing pretty hard. It doesn’t sound like he’s after Democrats (maybe he feels he’s already got them). It feels like he’s going for the wealthier independent types who have some mistaken notion that all “the world needs now is love sweet love”.
On the whole, the Clinton ad would appeal to me the most if I were a low info voter. It’s fast paced, informational, highlights her strengths and ends with a very friendly smile. It doesn’t require a lot of attention and all you need to know about what she wants to do for you is there without a lot of analysis.
My point being that if you complain about a statement from one guy. You should have a problem when someone from your own team says the same thing. And I don’t see any of them saying something totally different on the situation. That’s all. It is what it is.
Just who sets international boundaries anyway (and in whose national self-interest?), and do those boundaries include the sovereign countries that we’ve bombed?
totally OfT – I see Mrs. Greenspan is assigned to cover the Clinton campaign again tonight.
Kelly O’Donnell, assigned to the McCain campaign, is already severely hoarse at 5:15 today, apparently from having spoken, umm, quite a bit about McCain.
NBC/MSNBC is so transparent. Count on Mrs. Greenspan to assure us all that HRC’s campaign is dead,dead,dead and that any speech she gives tonight will be phony.
So why would the US Navy choose to highlight this sea encounter, now?
Unlike FDL, and a few other blogs, You Tube attracts a pretty young set. I wouldn’t read too much into the comments. Their lives aren’t in the same place as the people that Edwards is addressing with his campaign.
They are negotiated thru treaties, which apparently we no longer believe in.
Because it happened this weekend.
Well yes those. I’m thinking our economy can’t tolerate $100/bbl oil so $200/bbl would pretty much sink it.
I forced myself to watch the Mitt ad – cuz I can’t stand Mitt. It’s just him talking. He says too much. There’s no central take-away idea. Just blah, blah, blah…. you tune out pretty quickly.
He’d put me to sleep.
For that matter, why would the US Navy be in waters Iran considers to be theirs? Wouldn’t that be a provocative act itself?
Exactly. We’ve broken the rule of law in this country. You know, it was just so, so…quaint. Of course when our people get captured and tortured, we’ll scream bloody murder.
I like what one of Juan Cole’s commenters had to say about this “provocation”.
Originally the maritime boundary was set by how far your fortress cannons could reach. Three miles was the range of large cannon in the erly history of our country. Later twelve miles was the limit.
Or because there’s a frickin’ election on?
Just watched again and still think Bill comes across as a whiny baby, and found it very embarrassing for a former President to act like that, especially to a group of college kids.
Pointing his finger forcefully the whole time and raising his voice while asking the kid, “What about when Obama said Hillary was from Punjab, HUH!?! Did you like that!?! And what about Obama calling me names? Did you like that, huh?!?”
That seemed quite patronizing to me. And still he never answered the question, which he acknowledged at the end saying he didn’t have an opinion about the question…after just spending a couple minutes raggin on Obama.
What the hell did Chuck Hagel have to do with anything anyway? Grasping badly.
Sad, really that a Former President is reduced to this. A long way from “Boxers or briefs?” Just my humle opinion.
Any of the Democratic presidential candidates are far and away preferred to the warmongering likes of Rudy, Huck and Mittie. The Dems would also be much better for the economy. And for education and health care and everything else, for that matter.
Bet the US Navy just made their basic standard report. Opportunist buzzed Bushco and Bushco whispered in the ears of his media cronies and the story got legs. And, what do you know – a star is born.
They would highlight it because we need to remember in this election season all the evil scary terrists out there.
Must. Elect. Strong. Leader.
One thing to remember here is that international waters or high seas is a zone where nations ultimately provide for their own security. That means provocative acts are treated very differently than those on land
Exxon is about to argue before the Supreme Court that once your skipper and your vessel is untied from the dock – they’re on their own, and the vessel’s owner can’t be blamed for consequences of the skipper’s actions at sea.
Reactions for me:
Clinton and Obama ads: Too much going on. I was trying to read what was on the screen and listen at the same time. Was a bit like watching a movie with subtitles–you miss too much of the message.
Edwards ad: Good ad on the whole, but I think his strongest pitch is every time he says “America is better than this.” Whenever he says that, the audience really responds positively.
Romney ad: Too long. Too much head bobbing. No single clear message.
McCain ad: Pretty good, although appealing to nostalgia.
Ralph Wiggam!
I hope Musharaeff is providing security consulting for the Shrubco mideast trip.
Of course when our people get captured and tortured, we’ll scream bloody murder.
Frankly, I’m utterly astonished that this hasn’t happened already.
Or maybe it has, but we simply weren’t told about it, because it would so obviously drive home the hypocrisy…
I think your paranoia is getting to you. Yes Bush is not above bringing something up that’s BS to affect an election (see raising the alert level after dem convention is ‘04).
But sometimes you have to look at things for what they are. It was an incident. Nothing came of it. It’s been a relatively minor story. That’s it.
Now if Hillary or Rudy try to gain from it then it matters.
Ding!
“…your own team…”?
Normally nations view an area within twelve miles of their coastlines as territorial waters. Iran- and several other nations- claim more:
[edit] Contiguous zone claims
None: Albania, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Benin, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brunei, Cameroon, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Cook Islands, Costa Rica, Cote d’Ivoire, Croatia, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ecuador, El Salvador, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Estonia, Fiji, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Iceland, Indonesia, Iran, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Kenya, Kiribati, Kuwait, Latvia, Lebanon, Liberia, Libya, Lithuania, Malaysia, Mauritius, Micronesia, Monaco, Montenegro, Netherlands, Nigeria, Niue, Palau, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Philippines, Poland, São Tomé and Príncipe, Singapore, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, Suriname, Sweden, Togo, Tonga, Turkey, Ukraine, United Kingdom, United Republic of Tanzania
14 nautical miles (25.9 km): Finland
15 nautical miles (27.8 km): Venezuela
18 nautical miles (33.3 km): Bangladesh, Gambia, Saudi Arabia, Sudan
24 nautical miles (44.4 km): Algeria, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Bulgaria, Cambodia, Canada, Cape Verde, Chile, People’s Republic of China, Cuba, Cyprus, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Egypt, France, Gabon, Ghana, Haiti, Honduras, India, Iran, Jamaica, Japan, Madagascar, Maldives, Malta, Marshall Islands, Mauritania, Mexico, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nauru, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Romania, Russia, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, Senegal, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Syria, Thailand, Timor-Leste, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Tuvalu, United Arab Emirates, United States of America, Uruguay, Vanuatu, Vietnam, Yemen
50 nautical miles (92.6 km): Democratic People’s Republic of Korea; 50 nautical mile military zone. Army Command Announcement of 1 August 1977.
If a nation is to claim such territory- it must attempt to enforce the boundaries- and other nations who demand navigation rights must enforce those rights as well- leading to conflicts. It’s quite likely that such conflicts are routine- both nations doing what they need to do to enforce their claims- but it may be that Bush decided to publicize this incident to up the ante.
If I follow this logic to its conclusion, that means missiles that travel intrnational shore to international shore becomes the legal distance.
Contrasting the mittster and Obama, mittster all by himself, just boring talk. Obama ad actually draws you in to pay attention. You see him talking to people, you see what’s been written – excellent ad for young people who are used to a fast-paced kind of viewing, where you listen and read at the same time, music in the background too, and you get some of his ideas and some quoted commentary. Good ad. I liked it.
Sorry for taking this thread so off topic guys :-0
But I needed to respond.
The Straits of Hormuz is an international waterway so normal territorial claims don’t apply. It is 21 miles wide at its narrowest point which would mean if a 12 nautical mile standard were applied you would have overlapping jurisdictions. As it is, flow through it is controlled in the following way
(from wiki)
It actually seems more like a non-incident that was hyped due to the election.
Hugh
Thanks- I was just about to look for the info on the straits.
There was a video…looked like speedboats.
“I haven’t but they have a history of local commanders with shit for brains doing things on their own.”
But of course, all of our local commanders have something else for brains, right?
Bob in HI
Thanks for finding that! So both Iran and the US claim 24 nautical miles? What’s good for the goose, etc.
LS
Saw the video- couldn’t make out much about the boats- but 50 footers are pretty small.
Straits of Hormuz? Think Gulf of Tonkin Incident.
Maybe it was a bunch of teenagers messing around…
Again, I didn’t see it that way. I suspect our differing views may be tainted by our prejudices before viewing the clip. I didn’t dislike Clinton during his administration or after.
And Ding! again.
Sounds like the kind of argument Exxon would make. IANAL but I doubt that it would fly. Territorial waters are still territorial and subject to the relevant nation’s law. Now there might be a difference here between state and federal jurisdictions but the federal at least should operate no matter what.
Imagine, you could swim across the Straits of Hormuz.
I’m actually surprised the incident didn’t turn out worse than it did. The main U.S. cruiser was a Ticonderoga class Aegis cruiser. Another ship of the same class shot down an Iranian airliner in the late 1980s. The Ticonderogas are called “Robo-Ships,” and I’m sure that the second those “white boxes” went into the water, there were a lot of systems that had to be overridden to keep a bunch of bad stuff from happening to those little Iranian boats.
Edwards really seems like the best candidate in those ads to me. A real fighter and no bullshit.
Unfortunately, it just seems like there isn’t enough of the country ready to go that far yet. They’ve been so swayed by the carefully constructed Repube storylines, dutifully repeated ad nauseum for the last 20-30 years by the Conglomerate Press and talk radio, that I’m beginning to think the pendulum may have to swing through Obamaland before it gets to Edwardsland.
Given this premise, Obama’s ad is masterful as is all of his other messaging. I still think he’s a good Liberal deep down, and he’ll get that pendulum swung into a much better place, and perhaps then a message like Edwards’ will resonate with the majority of people. Plus, Obama if elected will have to contend with a whole new media landscape, and won’t be able to say one thing and do another like the Clintons did, and never get called on it by an organized force.
Hillary’s: As phony as ever. Bill and Hill don’t seem to realize that there’s a sea change happening in American society. The old tricks don’t work anymore. Rove learned this the hard way in ‘06. They thought, and still think they can just do the same stuff. People are tired of it. We’re moving on.
Christy – I saw a personalized license plate on a Porsche Boxster that I thought you’d like: MWUHAHA
I suspect you’re right.
So, if Russia decided to station several Destroyers and Aircraft carriers in Long Island Sound near New York’s harbors, we would just pay them no mind and pretend they weren’t there, right? Or, say, the Chinese Navy decided to station a few battleships around LA Harbor? Or, say, some other world naval power decided to place a few gun boats in position along Houston’s shipping channel?
Our mere presence there is a provocation.
Bob in HI
Our “vital interests” in the Middle East means we want their oil. That’s why the U.S. Navy, Army, Air Force, Marines, Blackwater, Halliburton, Bechtal and other American concerns are there. And by gawd we have a right to their oil. Don’t we?
I would have more faith in the professionalism of our officers over theirs, yes, because ours are more professional. Now if we’re talking about the idiots at the top both uniformed (like Petraeus and Odierno) and civilian (Bush/Cheney) that is a different story.
“By any chance is there a difference in interpretation between the US and Iran w/r/t what “international waters” are? Wasn’t there a similar encounter with the British Navy last year?”
Good question. I’ll bet that the answer is “yes.”
Bob in HI
My lady just got in from work. She tells me she is on pins and needles about NH.
I just don’t understand what it is about foreign countries not wanting to be occupied and presented as the possible geographical location for the start of a world war. Very odd.
I seem to recall seeing Russian trawlers sitting a few miles off the coast of Oahu occasionally on clear days when I was in the USAF.
Romney, you’re right Christy, change blah blah, I’m the one who’ll bring it about, not convincing.
McCain, better than the last one.
Hillary’s is more upbeat, positive, I liked it. Edwards I really liked, I hear what you are saying about specifics, but he gives examples of social injustice, failing our veterens, and embattled middle class, and to me it works that he still talking about changing the system, getting rid of big money interests.
Obama, yup, clearly the front runner video. But to me it sounds like empty rhetoric. “I got into this race to clean up lobbyists” – oh really? Isn’t this a new campaign issue for him? Doesn’t he have a former lobbyist, Axelrod, in a chief position on his staff? Didn’t he accept a bunch of lobbyists and pac money until he announced his campaign? Sounds like more Obama positioning to me. Not impressed.
Russia has no aircraft carriers except the Kuznetsov and I don’t even know if it is really operational in any meaningful sense of the word. I do not know that the Chinese have any battleships. Battleships are and have been obsolete for decades although Reagan did recommission a few for a few years. No, foreign warships can not enter the territorial waters of another country without that country’s permission. But the Strait of Hormuz is an international waterway so the examples you give don’t apply.
Tom Clancy has written quite a bit about the routine “provacative behavior” between US and USSR vessels in the good ol cold war days. I’m not sure about all the reasons, but apparently it happens with some frequency.
There’s also an International Law of the Sea which is the common starting point. Countries can declare that they do not accept certain parts of it, and put other countries on notice about those exceptions. And of course, they can also make treaties.
Bob in HI
The incident with the British Marines took place on the Shatt al Arab which is the confluence of the Tigris and Euphrates and flow out into the Gulf. The question was of territorial waters not international ones. The Marines maintained they were in Iraqi national waters. The Iranians claimed they were in Iranian ones.
Just a note, I was in New Hampshire this weekend, in Claremont, going door to door with Edwards, and the huge disparity in funding was apparent. Clintons campaign headquarters were in what looked like an upscale hotel right on a green. She had the big mega signs, like 6 feet by 8, everywhere, well staffed with supporters. Ditto Obama, the big big signs, and hoards of very young people waving and cheering.
Edward’s campaign was in a storefront, missing key items like bumper stickers, the little yard sized sign lacking the metal stands to put them around, and a few dedicated madly overworked staff. That campaign can use an infusion of a)volunteers and b)money.
Make that door to door for Edwards, not with.
Oil Prices fell yesterday. He has to keep those prices up somehow. I see they “rebounded” today and are moving back to the $100/Bl territory. Of Course, Iran profits from this showdown as well. At least in the short term.
Oil prices actually fell when the “incident” was announced. I don’t think that the market took it seriously. More Clusterfuck sabre rattling.
Clusterfuck- the president who cried “Wolf”.
Or an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk – a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board? By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pag…..ge_id=1811
But it’s AOK that our good communist Chinese
Bankersfriends antagonize the United States Navy. And the msm kept it underwraps, no need for the general public to know. Heck, the chinese might dump our US treasury notes or worse, not support our debt.BTW Matt Bai who is trying to make himself a byname in dimwittery has a post up at the NYT:
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes…..ex.html?hp
Apparently it is bad and backward looking for Democrats to make comparisons between their candidates and John or Bobby Kennedy because Matt wasn’t born or old enough at the time and doesn’t understand them. Of course that all of the Republicans embrace positions that come out of the Stone Age well I suppose that’s OK. It just amazes me that the Times pays money Matt Bai, Michael Gordon, Tom Friedman, Bill Kristol. It is like it has become a charity dedicated to the support of halfwit pundits and hack reporters.
We had USSR Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) ships, referred to as “Skunks” off the coast of Okinawa. We also had occasional of Bison aircrft. We would intercept them and guide them back toward the Sea of Japan, where they were intercepted and escorted back to Vladovastok. The purpose was ELINT and we did the same thing. I think we and the USSR played by unwritten rules. The North Koreans, not so much, with the Pueblo Incident and shooting down of an EC-121.
What is important here is the International Agreement on the Hormuz straits, posted earlier on this thread, and precisely where the U.S. ships were located with respect to those zones when they were approached by the small Iranian boats.
Bob in HI
The Cushing spot is currently trading at $96.33/bbl. Movement in the market is now almost completely due to speculation and not to supply and demand issues except as these play into the speculation. So supposedly prices fell last week because of the bad job numbers. Well, those numbers are still with us but the market moved on. The Hormuz incident took place on a Sunday and was resolved without violence so on Monday there was no real fallout from it. Which is not to say there could have been. Speculators are chasing will o’ the wisps here. Reality seldom intrudes in any significant way. When it does look out.
Housing Woes, AT&T News Sinks Stocks
Tuesday January 8, 5:45 pm ET
Wall Street Plunges — This Time, on Worries About Countrywide, AT&T, Pending Home Sales Drop
The dollar fell against most rival currencies, except the yen today.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080108/wall_street.html
WASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- U.S. President George W. Bush warned lawmakers not to raise taxes while the U.S. economy faces credit-market-related challenges, saying his administration has a good plan to deal with the turmoil in the housing market.
http://news.morningstar.com/ne…..at=EcoNews
“I just want to let you know we got a strategy.” aka; the Chinese will lend us more money. Welcome to the Bush Voodoo Economy
On the polls with two friend:
- car pool buddy: Obama
- his wife: Clinton
- me: Edwards
Was quite a fun trip with them.
—-
My wife had voted for Edwards earlier. She had not really liked any of them and then had watched a few of the last debates and was pleased that she had to really think who to vote for in the booth having liked things from all of them in the debates.
- I wrote in Al Gore for VP.
As usual, a little late to the thread. Taking Bush at his word seems very naive. I learned long ago that George Bush is a perfect truth oracle – whatever comes out of his mouth, the opposite is sure to be true. Bush is a compulsive, pathological liar. I’m sure it’s hereditary, he got it from both parents.
I tend to think the personal ads (rather than a voiced-over montage) are more effective.
That said, if Edwards doesn’t start to realize that repeating a single thing (even if it’s a good single thing) ad nauseum only works for Republican supporters – he’s going to be done soon.
I don’t find Obama’s empty rhetoric and preacher-like cadence persuasive or inspirational though the majority of our electorate aren’t exactly discerning so …
I thought Hillary’s Iowa ad was better.
The Shatt al Arab boundary has always been an issue. There are no permanent marker buoys, so it is always difficult to tell which side of the border you’re on when you’re out in open waters. Eventually, that will be resolved with Global Positioning imagery, and the border will be defined by GPS coordinates. There will have to be an International Harbor Pilot analogous to an Air Traffic Controller who has electronic imagery of each ship on a background where the border is electronically drawn. As with airplanes, each ship will have to have a proper electronic signature, like airplanes do so that Air Traffic Controllers can keep track of them. But we’re a long way from that day, politically. (Technologically, we could do it tomorrow.)
As it is, with fast-moving boats, there’s the time factor as well– like, when were you where? There was another incident in the Shatt a few months ago that similarly involved allegations about which ship was where. So what we have, both in the Shatt al-Arab, and in the Straits of Hormuz, is like two opponents bobbing and weaving, jabbing and feinting, and playing games with threats and non-threats. There is great potential for either side to create a Gulf of Tonkin-type incident/non-incident if they want to. Meanwhile, they jab and feint, bob and weave, to see how the other side reacts.
Bob in HI
If they were flying the Iranian flag or wearing Iranian military uniforms or using military weaponry, then it wouldn’t matter if they were British. It could still start a conflagration of major importance.
We really really don’t need that kind of crap just now.