It’s always great when Fox News calls for civility. After excluding Ron Paul (who is, per some polls, in a statistical tie for third in the GOP New Hampshire primary) from the debate last night, Fox’s official pollster Frank Luntz’s feathers were ruffled because a Paul supporter got into his focus group and taped the proceedings.

The man claims that Luntz was slamming Paul to focus group members, and according to Melissa Bailey of the New Haven Independent, threatened to publish the video on his web site:

Luntz charged the man with breaking the rules by recording the proceedings.

“I’m not part of the media. I have a Web site,” said the Paul supporter, who slipped away before the Independent could ask his name.

“You have a Web site,” echoed Luntz.

“Yeah, that’s not the media!” said the man. Others chimed in — “The Internet doesn’t count.”

Luntz charged the participant with subverting the poll. “Don’t you think you have a responsibility” to answer honestly to the questions? Luntz asked – or tried to, before he got cut off by raging Paulites.

Oh that’s rich.

Last night’s Fox event wasn’t a debate, it was a public fluffing of John McCain (who taunted Paul the night before on his exclusion). Chris Wallace launched an open, bare knuckles attack on Huckabee, and the chiron ran a quote from Romney praising McCain’s immigration plan when McCain was speaking. The GOP doesn’t want Ron Paul messing up their private party with an anti-war message that is connecting with its few remaining members so they fixed the show and excluded him. How quaint that Luntz should start lecturing people on what’s fair.

Why don’t they just stick a crown on McCain and be done with it?


 
 

219 Responses to “Ron Paul Supporters Confront Frank Luntz”

bgrothus January 7th, 2008 at 8:36 am

Jane!!

ReneND January 7th, 2008 at 8:37 am

Morning, Jane.

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 8:38 am

Morning, Jane:

You in NH?

Bustednuckles January 7th, 2008 at 8:39 am

If they want the Maverick, I say BRING IT!

Thats an ass beatin for the record books, waiting to happen.

ReneND January 7th, 2008 at 8:40 am

McCain seems relaxed. I think he knows he has been Chosen.

Redshift January 7th, 2008 at 8:41 am

Oh, I hope the guy puts the video up and it gets some traction. If it’s on YouTube, I bet Keith would run it. Luntz is such a creep, a “pollster” who was kicked out of the professional society of pollsters. Has a long history of running “focus groups” designed to produce a particular result.

CTBob January 7th, 2008 at 8:41 am

Boy, I love those Paul supporters. “Fuck you Frank!” They are very protective of their boy, that’s for sure!

And if McCain wins big tomorrow, we’re going to have to listen to Lieberman squawking endlessly about how he delivered the votes for his old pal. Even Chris Shays is trying to butt in on the action.

Redshift January 7th, 2008 at 8:42 am

OT: Jessica Hagy (of “Indexed”) has some great graphics up at McClatchy. I think this one is my favorite.

Gnome de Plume January 7th, 2008 at 8:43 am

Seems like Edwards gets treated somewhat similarly by big media.

perris January 7th, 2008 at 8:44 am

Fox News isn’t a news channel they’re opinion media, and I’m not quite sure what the Democrats are thinking letting Fox run the pool coverage for the convention next summer. They might as well hand the keys over to Brent Bozzell.

this should be a project for the tubes, we should exclude fox from any political debate or discussion unless they plan on getting in their face.

the only time a democrat should have anything to do with fox is to slam them for being a corporate owned tool

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 8:44 am

It will be REAL fun to see how the fundi-neocons (here Wallace; in print MSM Cristal) go after the Rethug increasingly popular candidate Huckabee. This is goina rub the cristo-gelicals very much the WRONG WAY. And, it could indeed push them to go against (stop watching/supporting) Fox. Interesting here, as with the NYT, how the MSM is caught in a bind between its owners’ neo-con agendas and the needs to keep its readers/viewers to an OK level. Also interesting in this light is where the NYT have positioned Cristal: Mondays opp Krugman. Clearly Krugman is seen as the biggest threat to the Rethug policies — all those facts and expert analysis doesn’t cut it for them. Alas, Cristol is not smart enough to tie Krugman’s shoe laces, and based on this morning’s column (and Cristal’s citation of key scholar/official, the ”conservative writer Michelle Malkin”) it looks as if he won’t bring anything but platitudes and vitriol to the pages of the NYT either.

dov12348 January 7th, 2008 at 8:45 am

Heh. I still get a kick out of John ”I went to the Mall of Baghdad with only ten armored Humvees, dozens of soldiers with rifles, and two Apache attack helicopters, and I swear everything was back to normal again” McCain.

lisadawn82 January 7th, 2008 at 8:45 am

Gotta love it when you are screwed by you own rules. The MSM keeps on saying that blogs and individual web sites aren’t media. Ha, ha, ha.

moondancer January 7th, 2008 at 8:46 am

For all the protest from gooper insiders, Paul is the essence of the GOP. Belligerent soft sell fascism.

bgrothus January 7th, 2008 at 8:46 am

Why don’t they just stick a crown on McnovaCain and be done with it?

BoxTurtle January 7th, 2008 at 8:46 am

Am I the only one who thinks the Fox news should be required to register as a lobbyist? Or at least post a disclaimer on their News shows about the difference between facts and opinions?

So Fox has decided they want McCain, eh? Well, of the GOP flock he’s the least noxious and would probably be the GOP’s best chance for the White House.

I like that Obama is rolling over Clinton. Of all the Dem’s, she’s the one I’d have the most trouble supporting. But given a choice, I’d rather Edwards.

Boxturtle (If Clinton gets the nod, I may have to write in ”Goofy”)

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 8:47 am

I think, too, that as the MSM (and American public) thinks back on the debates, the fact that the Rethugs had to dis-attach themselves from FOX because they left out Paul will prove problematic for Fox as a so-called news station isn’t the only problem. The format of the ABC debate for both parties was a clear winner, not only in getting candidates engaged, but also in allowing us to see the Rethugs and Dems in close proximity. I found the whole thing very insightful.

hackworth January 7th, 2008 at 8:47 am

The kid said Paul is the Savior of America. They’ve got passion. Is anyone gonna raise hell for Edwards?

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 8:48 am

Fuck you Frank. Sounds like the mantra of the week.

-G

P.S. I just got back from the Chuck and Huck Free Pancake Breakfast. I gots ta say, Huckabee is a charmer and does a pretty good campaign stump speech.

No wonder the establishment is shitting their pants.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 8:49 am

They are damned if they do that too. It is unlikely that the evangels will get out the vote for him and will simply stay home. Remember Iowa!!!

Beerfart Liberal January 7th, 2008 at 8:50 am

Jane- o/t – really like the Book Salon yesterday. Your intro seemed a little doubtful if people would be interested. I, for one was – very.

back on: I was really perturbed that FOX gave Giuliani the free air time – much of which he could use trashing Democrtas because he’s irrelevant to this nominating process.

SonomaRus January 7th, 2008 at 8:50 am

Headline (You heard it here first) ”FOX projects McCain the winner in Florida putting him over the top in electoral votes”

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 8:50 am

My nephew (a Democrat) is a fervent Paul supporter, having us send campaign contributions instead of a present. Before that he supported Hilly, and before that Kucinich. Basically he is an idiot, but then there are alot of them.

WarOnWarOff January 7th, 2008 at 8:51 am

Paul’s supporters had been yelling in the window and marching around the block during the taping of the show. Luntz called them “mean.”

Heh. The master of political language framing at work, kids.

Jane Hamsher January 7th, 2008 at 8:51 am

Nope, back in DC with the dogs.

Helluva lot warmer here, but I did pick up the Des Moines cold that took out just about everyone.

I got through chemo last year without getting sick, fer chrissake. This thing is nasty.

hackworth January 7th, 2008 at 8:51 am

Big crowd? Good pancakes? Sausage or bacon? Was there a decent place to sit and eat?

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 8:51 am

I think McNuts and Romney-Bot 2008 will end up almost even.

Look for a 5th place finish for Rudy.

-G

wigwam January 7th, 2008 at 8:51 am

Hmmmmm. When I click on [READ MORE], I actually get less in that the partial sentence, “Fox News isn’t a news channel they’re opinion media, and I’m not quite sure what the Democrats are”, disappears. Not a problem, but the tech staff ought to know.

Jane Hamsher January 7th, 2008 at 8:52 am
In response to WarOnWarOff @ 24

You funny.

(*sniff*)

JohnJ January 7th, 2008 at 8:52 am

Why don’t we start campaigning for Huck? At least we can get a laugh out of THIS election! Jilly has already been outed too soon or we could’a had fun with him instead!

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 8:53 am

Interesting, and because of demographics (older women, many emigrees from NYC area) I bet Hilly will do pretty well there. Alas (and happily from my vantage) Fla will not count this year in the Dem primaries. I bet Hilly and Bill they didn’t do something to get the Fla dems to back down. (Then again, maybe they wanted Fla to be moved up because they were sure of a victory there). If true, I bet they are REALLY pissed now at Dean for calling them out on this!!!

oldgold January 7th, 2008 at 8:54 am

Has anyone else noticed that the medias narrative of this election is at cross purposes with itself as it relates to the McCain and Clinton?

Mccain [AKA the St.] is praised for his experience. In these trying times we are informed that we need a man who has been there and done that.

Clinton [AKA the Bitch] is pilloried for trying to run on experience. We are informed that leadership is about the future. That change is the coin of the realm.

The Fourth Estate has lost its way.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 8:55 am

I swear by sucking zinc lozenges until the conditions dissipate. It has worked for me lots.

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 8:55 am

Jane @ 25:

Hang in there. Drink lotsa green tea and watch teevee…

Methinks toobz acting up again. The Facebook thingy is not aligned properly with the handles…

WarOnWarOff January 7th, 2008 at 8:56 am

;)

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 8:56 am

Sorry Jane, meant that for you. Get well soon. My reply button doesn’t seem to be working right now.

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 8:57 am
In response to hackworth @ 26

Parkers Maple Barn is about 2 miles into the sticks of Mason NH, population under 2K.

Known for a deep fried French toast about 4 inches thick. They served only blueberry pancakes, scrambles and sausage.

Chuck and Huck paid for the place to be opened.

My buddy, the local cop estimated around 500. 2 shifts of folks about 250 a pop.

Chuck Norris spoke briefly and was also a crowd pleaser. He has a martial arts camp that helps inner city kids get out of gangs…Go Chuck!

Sam Seder was spotted and also comic Eugene Mirman(A Boston act).

All told, good turnout, good event for Huckster….He also brought in the few local pols with burnished evangelical creds.

-G

hackworth January 7th, 2008 at 8:58 am

Reply buttons are down. I was asking GregB about St Alphonso’s Pancake Breakfast.

Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle January 7th, 2008 at 9:01 am
In response to GregB @ 19

Why do you think guys like Kristol and Kudlow(and Faux) are apoplectic? I’ve been saying it for a while but the Rethug I most fear is Huckabee. The fundies love him. He is a good speaker(while he’s as stupid as Bush, he is a much better speaker than Schrub) and the press doesn’t say anything really bad about them because he charms them as much as McCain seems to(which makes it hard for them to obey their corporate masters and bury him).

hackworth January 7th, 2008 at 9:01 am

Were you bumping elbows tryin ta eat? Or did ya have some room?

Beerfart Liberal January 7th, 2008 at 9:01 am

Richmond @ 23:
My nephew (a Democrat) is a fervent Paul supporter, having us send campaign contributions instead of a present. Before that he supported Hilly, and before that Kucinich. Basically he is an idiot, but then there are alot of them.

He is what is known as a ”Paultard.”

puravida January 7th, 2008 at 9:02 am

Jane @25: Springtime here in DC. Weird. My 11 year old has had a hacking cough for the last two weeks. Took him to the doctor-everything’s fine, no bronchitis, just have to wait it out. Doctor prescribed honey. My kid loves that scrip!

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 9:02 am

Richmond @ 36:

See my 34. Toobz acting up…

Katherine Graham Cracker January 7th, 2008 at 9:02 am

FrankLuntz fuk news partisan hackery

Redshift January 7th, 2008 at 9:03 am

Ms. Redshift is in NH, and was mildly freaking out because she saw a poll from one of the local media outlets that had Huckabee leading in NH. Nobody else seems to be showing that, and who knows, it might have been an online poll or something.

Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle January 7th, 2008 at 9:04 am
In response to SonomaRus @ 22

Which is funny because Murdoch must be smarting that Rudy is going down in flames.

dov12348 January 7th, 2008 at 9:04 am

As a candidate these days, the LAST thing you should be running on is ”experience” in a government that has overall become little more than an excuse for ignoring the people, abuses of power, criminality and corruption.

The very IDEA of running on experience shows naievete.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:04 am

Biodun. On the toobz -and how! Also I was waiting for your correction for CristAl. I had an a, all set to put in, asshole! :-)

yellowsnapdragon January 7th, 2008 at 9:06 am

Ron Paul has a pretty good grasp on the history of US foreign policy and its role in creating terrorism.

Being a repug, he must be 51/50 nuts. Anyone know where he’s gone wrong?

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:07 am
In response to NelsonAlgren @ 39

Because the money wing of the party is very aristocratic. They see Huckabee as a shitkicker from the sticks not worthy of their piss.

Honestly. That was what was one of the driving forces behind the destruction of Bill Clinton.

Think of David Broder’s “they were outsiders” shtick.

The blue-bloods don’t want to be reigned over by the rabble.

-G

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:07 am

Dov12348 – you are absolutely! The Congress has even worse poll numbers than the shrub. They are in large part responsible for the mess we are in. Think about the impact on this housing mess when coupled with the new bankrupcy laws that in essence don’t allow one to declare bankrupcy evenin cases of medical debt. Those folks are stuck with that debt forever. That is going to impact in a major way many many people.

bluejeansntshirt January 7th, 2008 at 9:07 am

Ads and blog roll are under my comment box.
Commenters name not lining up with blue bar.
Maybe my puter caught my cold.
Feel better Jane!

Beerfart Liberal January 7th, 2008 at 9:07 am

puravida @ 42:
Jane @25: Springtime here in DC. Weird. My 11 year old has had a hacking cough for the last two weeks. Took him to the doctor-everything’s fine, no bronchitis, just have to wait it out. Doctor prescribed honey. My kid loves that scrip!

My kid had the same thingh and dr. said the same thing before xmas. itw as a few days before it got any better at all and a few more before it went away completely. Over a week.

BobbyG January 7th, 2008 at 9:08 am

O/T breaking news -

Cheney gets a chubbie:

(CNN) — The U.S. military reported Monday on a “significant” confrontation involving five Iranian Revolutionary Guard boats that “harassed and provoked” three U.S. naval ships in international waters over the weekend.

U.S. military officials said the incident occurred early Sunday morning in the Strait of Hormuz, a narrow shipping channel leading in and out of the Persian Gulf.

The five Iranian ships made “threatening” moves — in one case coming within 200 yards of a U.S. ship, the U.S. officials said.

In one radio transmission, the Iranians told the U.S. Navy: “I am coming at you. You will explode in a couple of minutes,” the U.S. military officials told CNN…

hackworth January 7th, 2008 at 9:09 am

Waht was up with that premature Pat Robertson ejaculation? Seems Pat wasn’t getting enough attention so he had to blurt something out. Giuliani ain’t his peoples’ type. Giules is his type – no doubt – Ol Diamond Mines Robertson.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:09 am

yellowsnapdrago: Paul is a characteristic libertarian, meaning NO government at all. Though – he would allow a bit of a breathing period to allow people to get used to the idea. That is pretty nuts in and of itself, back to the laissez faire capitalism that brought us the robber barrons and child labor.

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:09 am
In response to Redshift @ 45

He’ll probably end-up with more votes than expected, but I can’t see him winning.

Most of the polls for today have shown a real cat fight between the Romney-Bot and Crazy Train McCain.

Rudy’s gonna come in 5th……Fed-up Fred is going to be lucky to beat Dunkin Hunter.

-G

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:12 am
In response to hackworth @ 40

I just stood and watched….my ass was two feet from a pellet stove and is still red!

I wasn’t able to eat any Hucka-snacks or Norris-noshes.:(

-G

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:12 am

Hackworth: On Ol Diamond Mines Robertson. Absolutely right, I would love someone to do a real expose on this. Congo civil war in part laid at the feet of the all life-loving American pentecostals.

Jane Hamsher January 7th, 2008 at 9:13 am
In response to GregB @ 19

That was my experience.

No pancakes, though.

Jo Fish January 7th, 2008 at 9:13 am

Why don’t they just stick a crown on McCain and be done with it?

Uh, because they can’t find a crown that will fit that swollen head of his? This is not the John McCain I met years ago while on active duty down in Florida. He was a pretty normal guy then, “normal” for someone who was tortured in a North Vietnamese prison camp, but a funny, easy-going guy who did not seem to have the ego and meanness he’s exhibited since 2000.

Oh, well. Obama (or Edwards) will still beat him like a rented mule. That “we’ll be there for 100 years” quote is gonna hurt him with everyone but the “22 percenters”. Despite what his ego tells him, most Americans are fully cognizant of the fact that the war has gone on longer than WWII now, and it’s killing our economy, our military (literally) and our standing in the world.

Sorry John, go retire or something. Again.

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 9:13 am

Repug prez candidates: death merchants:

The closer the New Hampshire primary gets, it seems, the more terrified the Republican presidential candidates want you to be. That way, you’ll vote for the guy who scared you the worst, and not that guy who’s going to preside over your death at the hands of jihadists. McCain, who wants to shift the conversation away from immigration and onto foreign policy and security issues, has Web ads like ”Experience.” Rudy Giuliani — who never misses a chance to remind voters about 9/11 — is airing a TV commercial in New Hampshire called ”Ready” that is even more alarming than McCain’s ”Experience.” Released just days after Bhutto’s murder, it features footage of the late Pakistani leader, accompanied by a soundtrack of Middle Eastern music. ”Hate without boundaries,” intones a narrator. ”A people perverted … A nuclear power in chaos.” Mike Huckabee — no foreign policy maven — answered a press conference question about immigration by invoking the specter of Pakistanis with ”shoulder-fired missiles” sneaking across the U.S.-Mexico border. Fred Thompson got into the act at Saturday night’s ABC News/Facebook/WMUR debate, proving that even campaigns that don’t have the money to scare people with ads can still try other methods. ”We could be attacked with a biological weapon and not even know it for a long period of time,” Thompson told viewers matter-of-factly.

Linky: http://salon.com/news/feature/2008/01/07/terror/

BobbyG January 7th, 2008 at 9:14 am
dov12348 January 7th, 2008 at 9:15 am

So…I honestly believe Hillary must actively distance herself from the experience meme or she’s dead meat.

But, alas — I think it’s too late.

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 9:16 am

The quotes are now all getting italicized. Toobz really actin’ up…

Gnome de Plume January 7th, 2008 at 9:17 am

Jane, I am on the tail end of that nasty cold. Watching TV does not help. It just makes your head hurt. What makes me feel better is getting in a steamy shower (alone – no dogs – the nasal stuff I am about to describe gets in their fur . . .) and do a nasal wash with salt water (1/2 tsp per quart of warm water) and one of those nasal bulbs you use on babies. Lots of icky stuff will run out and help clear you. You yoga people know it as a neti pot wash, but this is a little more extensive. I learned it from my ENT after sinus surgery years ago.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:17 am

GregB the latest Rasmussen has Huckabee at 11% and the thinking is that if Obama pulls an especially large number of independents, then it will go to Romney.

yellowsnapdragon January 7th, 2008 at 9:17 am

That’s kind of what I thought. It’s so rare to hear a repug with any understanding of history, I was floored. Maybe his support will lead the R’S away from the American Taliban. I’d rather live in anarchy than under Christian sharia.

MarilynSanAntone January 7th, 2008 at 9:18 am

Good point. If the Democratic campaigns weren’t so criticially important, it would be fun to watch the Republican implosion.

But we’re all lost. I just read all the comments on the earlier posting about the atrocities of war and whose responsibility it is (ours; our hands are bloody). And we’re going to continue. Dems are rushing headlong into Obama. Guess who his fp advisor is? Zbig Brezinski – Carter’s disastrous advisor, who manipulated the US into financing the mujadhin’s guerilla win over Russia (not that we’d want Russia to win) but that was the birth of Al Quaida (read all the reviews of Charlie Wilson’s War – where gullible American audiences laugh and cheer but are not let in on the nasty truth). Then read the serious history of that involvement. Juan Cole has a link to Chalmers Johnson’s review…excellent.

(By the way, it was eerie watching that movie a few days after Bhutto’s assasination).

Electing Obama may not be change…it may be same old same old.

yellowdogD January 7th, 2008 at 9:19 am

But he’s not going down in flames.
Steve Forbes just said on MSNBC that Rudy is well positioned to win the nomination. No trouble here, folks, just move along.

Coop January 7th, 2008 at 9:19 am

Ya gotta admit, as cosmic justice goes, frank’s gettin’ off pretty cheap.

AndyZ January 7th, 2008 at 9:20 am

And Luntz was the guy CNN used to critique one of the Democratic debates. The last guy on the tape said it best. Fuck you, Frank.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:21 am

Yellowdog: yup, and we know how well Forbed did in the last election. The evangels will NOT vote for either Romney or Rudy, and McCain is real IFFY for them too!

mack January 7th, 2008 at 9:21 am

And the link button don’t work for me
So
I’ll just provide the raw link to a semi on topic cartoon
http://xkcd.com/367/

twolf1 January 7th, 2008 at 9:22 am
In response to Gnome de Plume @ 66
yellowsnapdragon January 7th, 2008 at 9:23 am

Oh, to have Carter’s foreign policy again. He really did some amazing things at Camp David.

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:23 am
In response to yellowdogD @ 70

Steven Forbes, another shrunken-apple-head who invested 50 million dollars to win a caucus in Wyoming.

Are they going to get Harold Stassen’s feedback too?

-G

Gnome de Plume January 7th, 2008 at 9:24 am
In response to twolf1 @ 75

yes. But that is for sissies . . .

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:25 am

OT/and not: Drudge has up that Huckabee said at a NH church meeting ”You have signed up to be part of God’s army, soldiers of Christ.” That HAS got to put the fear of G_D in lots of Rethug Corporate and Neocon types who fund this party, ditto their MSM prettified spokespeople.

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 9:27 am

OT–

Oh, not to worry:

Filed at 12:10 p.m. ET

TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran’s Foreign Ministry said Monday that a confrontation between Iranian boats and U.S. Navy ships in Gulf over the weekend was ’’something normal’’ and was resolved. It suggested the Iranian boats had not recognized the U.S. vessels.

Linky: http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..-Navy.html

orcatjf January 7th, 2008 at 9:28 am

it seems the repubs are looking for another puppet for the handlers to use. Maybe Paul is no puppet for them

PLovering January 7th, 2008 at 9:29 am

Luntz is for sale.

Bustednuckles January 7th, 2008 at 9:31 am

Kinda fun to watch the fundies get their undies in a twist and get their jihad in overdrive.
Didn’t learn a damn thing from getting used like a drunk pledge at a Phi Kappa Delta party.

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:31 am

Andrew Sullivan has a Youtube video of a pack of Romneybots descending on a snow bank to pluck all of the McCain signs off and replacing them with Romney signs.

WWJSD? What Would Joseph Smith Do?

-G

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:31 am
In response to PLovering @ 82

Luntz gives whores a bad name.

-G

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 9:32 am

Gnome de Plume January 7th, 2008 at 8:43 am
9
Seems like Edwards gets treated somewhat similarly by big media.

—————-

teh Greenwald has a post up about that this morning

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:34 am

And, of course, as per RawStory, Isr*el is to advise Bush on Nuke bomb strike options in Iran. Terrific, now there is an unbiased sources, with a great record for accuracy in such issues. Wait until tomorrow, I bet Michael Gordon will have a follow up piece to the NYT article today by the new? neocon on the staff Isabel Kershner who points to tougher responses here to long-range fire power. She also notes that Palestin*ans picked up for various reasons have in only 23 or 8,854 cases been let go without charges. Most of the rest plea bargained. While citing as a source an advocacy group in Isra*l supporting Palest*nian rights, the main point here seems to be to suggest that they the latter group are all, to one degree or another, criminals, hence the need to plea bargain. Good going Kershner.

redX January 7th, 2008 at 9:35 am

Hope Ron Paul goes Indy on them and runs.

The McCain fluff job was sad. As noted they came up with the Mitt quite while he was talking – but did not come up with the McCain quotes where he was calling his bill amnesty or whatever.

Fox looked silly after the nice wide open ABC debate with nice chairs and all that. They just stuffed them at a table. At least they asked each about their weakness even if it was stuff like ”looks, age, Mormanm, etc).

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 9:35 am

If there is a silver lining to be had in the malpractice of journalism, leaving Paul out of the debates will show every citizen just how ”owned” our media is.

Loved the above comment about Fox should register as a lobbyist! Spot on!

chisholm1 January 7th, 2008 at 9:35 am

Frank Luntz wears a giant mega hardcore TOUPEE. How come we never talk about that? Jane can you start a thread devoted to it? Wait–a “toupee thread”–I think there’s a pun(tz) in there………

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 9:36 am

Saw a great bumper sticker yesterday:

Who would Jesus bomb?

Raven January 7th, 2008 at 9:38 am
In response to PLovering @ 82

Everybody is for sale, watch “The Magic Christian”.

redX January 7th, 2008 at 9:38 am

Must be really getting McCain in a pisser when he was not winning (he will win NH). I mean the guy went down on Bush soon after they had raped him in SC so McCain essentially sold his manhood to keep his spot in line.

Now they are trying to give it back but it might be to late.

He is the only R that has a chance at all if he can stay alert long enough. Yea go for a second term… when you are 80.

Anyway the Change theme will take him down no matter how diluted. Mitt got one good slash in … I dont think people are going to vote for you because you know more about the Senate cloak room.

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:38 am
In response to chisholm1 @ 90

Frank Putz has the worst toupee ever. It probably covers the sphincter on his head.

-G

rwcole January 7th, 2008 at 9:39 am

McCain is persona non grata to many of the gooper leaders.

They hate him for campaign finance reform which they view as unilateral disarmament- and they hate him for those times he was honest about Clustefuck’s ineptness.

They’d take him rather than the Huckster- but they don’t like him much. Romney’s their guy I think. Romney gave his religion speech at the side of 41.

egregious January 7th, 2008 at 9:39 am
In response to chisholm1 @ 90

Frank Luntz wears a giant mega hardcore TOUPEE. How come we never talk about that?

Uh, because we don’t pick on people for their physical appearance? We’re better than that I hope.

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 9:40 am

based on what? did forbes make a donation or something?

Hugh January 7th, 2008 at 9:40 am

Has anyone else noticed that the medias narrative of this election is at cross purposes with itself as it relates to the McCain and Clinton?

Mccain [AKA the St.] is praised for his experience. In these trying times we are informed that we need a man who has been there and done that.

Clinton [AKA the Bitch] is pilloried for trying to run on experience. We are informed that leadership is about the future. That change is the coin of the realm.

That’s a good point. It reflects the meme that it (experience) is always good for the Republicans and bad for the Democrats.

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:41 am
In response to egregious @ 96

Egregious, there is a Frank Lutz ridicule disclaimer in the FDL charter.

He has enough money to buy better products. It is a sign of his lack of taste.

-G

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 9:41 am

oops my comment was for yellowdog at 70

for some reason my fdl interface is a little hinky today.

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 9:41 am

“Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 8:50 am
23
My nephew (a Democrat) is a fervent Paul supporter, having us send campaign contributions instead of a present. Before that he supported Hilly, and before that Kucinich. Basically he is an idiot, but then there are alot of them.”

“Nobody ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American people.”

– H.L. Menken

marymccurnin January 7th, 2008 at 9:41 am

I just have one thing to say.

The electricity just came back on and we have heat and lights!!!!!

I haven’t been on my puter since Thursday night. Withdrawal was awful.

Raven January 7th, 2008 at 9:42 am

Vegetarians beware
Ringo and Peter Sellers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ybQpfr2-1M

chisholm1 January 7th, 2008 at 9:42 am

Egregious–I think Luntz makes fun of his own physical appearance–baldness–by wearing an intelligence-insulting, credibility-destroying Orlon weave-mop.

hackworth January 7th, 2008 at 9:42 am

Small town mayors race – our mayor was using city maintenance workers to pluck and replace opponent’s signs with his. They went to a particular hotel and plucked some signs, told the lady they were bringing her the signs ”she ordered” – the correct ones. She said – no you are not! Give me back my other signs and take off hosers.

Our mayor lost.

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:44 am
In response to marymccurnin @ 102

Let there be heat and light!

-G

rwcole January 7th, 2008 at 9:44 am

Oops

Forgot the WORST thing McCain did- he was against the Clusterfuck tax cuts. That’s reason enough to have one’s gooper card cancelled.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:45 am

Egregious – toupees are not physical appearance/condition!! Wearing a toupee is a choice (and usually a bad one) based on vanity and worse. I feel the same about face lifts etc etc. Ditto, Biden’s ”plugs.”

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:46 am

One of the severe side effects of imperialism in its advanced stages seems to be that it rots the brains of the imperialists. They start believing that they are the bearers of civilization, the bringers of light to “primitives” and “savages” (largely so identified because of their resistance to being “liberated” by us), the carriers of science and modernity to backward peoples, beacons and guides for citizens of the “underdeveloped world.”

-Chalmers Johnson reviews Charlie Wilson’s War

-G

redX January 7th, 2008 at 9:47 am

Parkers Maple Sugar Barn:

Pumpkin pancakes,
also sides of ** Maple Sugar glazed RIBS ** with breakfast – no need for sausage and ham!

marymccurnin January 7th, 2008 at 9:47 am
In response to GregB @ 94

covers the sphincter on his head.

Oh Lordie.

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:47 am
In response to redX @ 110

Yippee!

-G

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:48 am

rwcole – Interesting, I had forgotten that. No wonder they were gung ho on Romney then Richardson.

Hugh January 7th, 2008 at 9:49 am

McCain is old
He is a big supporter of an unpopular war which remains unpopular.
He doesn’t back the racist immigration attitudes of most of his party
He isn’t backed by the religious Right. (They have Huckabee.)
He doesn’t appeal to the libertarian wing of the party either. (They have Paul.)

So basically he has the neocons, Wall Street, and the media outlets that Wall Street owns.

hackworth January 7th, 2008 at 9:49 am

Us regular folks sure have paid dearly for Bushco ”Tax Cuts”. Our taxes are higher than ever. Then they let the insurance companies, oil companies, utilities, etc have carte blanche with us. Not to mention everything is in the shitter economically. We really couldn’t afford that extra four years of Dubya, but we got it.

Raven January 7th, 2008 at 9:50 am

This is great:

Iran and the United States do not have diplomatic relations. Switzerland represents U.S. interests in Tehran, while Pakistan represents Iranian interests in Washington

redX January 7th, 2008 at 9:50 am

Same thing here, but my kid got a better script:

- antibiotics for bronchitis (3days and gone)
- tyl type stuff if fever
- honey (as efective as Robit for cough), but only use if its not a productive cough.

Keep an eye out for any temperature on your child, if not you are set with honey. (The twin had the cough w/o bronchitis so that was good as well).

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:51 am

Hugh – yup, except as RWCole notes, with the opposition to tax cuts and support of campaign finance reform (i.e opposition to lobbying power) he is not so much a Corporatist guy either.

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 9:51 am

NelsonAlgren January 7th, 2008 at 9:01 am
39
In response to GregB @ 19
Why do you think guys like Kristol and Kudlow(and Faux) are apoplectic? I’ve been saying it for a while but the Rethug I most fear is Huckabee. The fundies love him. He is a good speaker(while he’s as stupid as Bush, he is a much better speaker than Schrub) and the press doesn’t say anything really bad about them because he charms them as much as McCain seems to(which makes it hard for them to obey their corporate masters and bury him).

i disagree. Huckabee is a hell of a lot smarter than Bush. in fact, i would say that he is fairly intelligent. just because we don’t like someone’s ideas does not mean he’s an idiot. Huckabee didn’t get as far as he’s gotten with help from the kewl kids, teh Village, a rich family or corporate backing, don’t misunderestimate him by believing he’s stupid.

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 9:52 am

The Gray Lady’s Frank Rich hearts Obama–and Huckeeberry:

******
The slogan “change” — a brand now so broad and debased that both Hillary Clinton and Mitt Romney appropriated it for their own campaigns — does not do justice to the fresh starts that Mr. Obama and Mr. Huckabee represent.

The two men are the youngest candidates in the entire field, the least angry and the least inclined to seek votes by saturation-bombing us with the post-9/11 arsenal of fear. They both radiate the kind of wit and joy (and, yes, hope) that can come only with self-confidence and a comfort in their own skins. They don’t run from Americans who are not in their club. Mr. Obama had no problem winning over a conclave of white Christian conservatives at Rick Warren’s megachurch in Orange County, Calif., even though he insisted on the necessity of condoms in fighting AIDS. Unlike the top-tier candidates in the G.O.P. presidential race, or the “compassionate conservative” president who refused for years to meet with the N.A.A.C.P., Mr. Huckabee showed up last fall for the PBS debate at the historically black Morgan State University and aced it.
******

Linky: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01…..6rich.html

(Not using quotes html ’coz I don’t want citation ital. Toobz has hiccups.)

rwcole January 7th, 2008 at 9:54 am

Hugh

No- I don’t think McCain has those guys—Romney does.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 9:54 am

Raven: Jeez – you gotta love it. Except of course that Switz will take money from virtually anyone (and probably has lots from Pakistan and ME dictators) and if Pakistan who is in the thick of things with Cheney is brokering for Iran, they can’t be too happy this, and are not likely to really BE at that negotiating table in any salient way. So it goes for emotionally 2 year old world leaders who decide that they will not talk to each other.

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 9:55 am

O/T breaking news -

Cheney gets a chubbie:

(CNN) — The U.S. military reported Monday on a “significant” confrontation involving five Iranian Revolutionary Guard boats that “harassed and provoked” three U.S. naval ships in international waters over the weekend.

U.S. military officials said the incident occurred early Sunday morning in the Strait of Hormuz, a narrow shipping channel leading in and out of the Persian Gulf.

The five Iranian ships made “threatening” moves — in one case coming within 200 yards of a U.S. ship, the U.S. officials said.

In one radio transmission, the Iranians told the U.S. Navy: “I am coming at you. You will explode in a couple of minutes,” the U.S. military officials told CNN…

Sounds just like the Gulf of Tonkin

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 9:55 am

Hugh, are you still here?

Just want to say good luck with your radio show today! Go get ’em!

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 9:57 am

As I said, Frank Rich really hearts HuckeePuckee:

******
Among the Republican candidates, Mr. Huckabee is also as culturally un-Bush as you can get. He constantly reminds voters that he did not go to an Ivy League school and that his plain values derived from a bona fide blue-collar upbringing, as opposed to, say, clearing brush on a vacation “ranch” bought with oil money attained with family connections. “People are looking for a presidential candidate who reminds them more of the guy they work with rather than the guy that laid them off,” he told Mr. Leno, in a nifty reminder of Mr. Romney’s corporate history as a Bush-style, Harvard-minted M.B.A.
*********

(Same link as my 120.)

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:58 am
In response to fahrender @ 119

I have never called him stupid or have underestimated him. I said many of the Republican party elites see him as an outsider, lower caste man.

-G

ReneND January 7th, 2008 at 9:58 am

Any chance Huckabee will run out of money? Paul?

Katherine Graham Cracker January 7th, 2008 at 9:58 am

frank rich can be quite modo

rwcole January 7th, 2008 at 10:00 am

I think that the Huckster is plenty bright- and in addition has more crowd pleasing qualities than anyone in the race. He just hasn’t bothered to do his homework on the issues. He seems to throw things out there in the spirit of the moment without thinking them through (billion dollar prize for 100 mpg car the other night).

He’d be a bad prez- but it ain’t stupidity that’s the problem- I’d say he’s WAY brighter than average.

He’s a bass player- likes to drive the rhythm while harmonizing. His timing is imecable as a speaker- never misses a beat- and he’s VERY sensitive to the tones his audience will respond to.

We’ll see how good he is in South Carolina. Another big win and he could be a factor.

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 10:00 am

*Just want to say good luck with your radio show today! Go get ’em!*

Hugh:

Any chance of putting that in an audio file and psoting it? Bonne chance, mon ami!

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 10:00 am

Rene – for Huckabee, the money will be less a factor, I think. He has all those ”soldiers of god” out doing his bidding at Church suppers, and donating their time to organize precincts, deliver fliers etc. That is in part how he was able to come in under the gun in Iowa despite the lack of money. And THIS is why the Rethug elites and MSM are dumping in their pants.

Hugh January 7th, 2008 at 10:02 am

rwcole, I think he has the Wall Street guys because he seems the most viable and tolerable of the Republican field. They know Romney is not going to win because he is Mormon and the rest are down right scary even to them. McCain has shown again and again that his maverick-ness can be quickly dumped as he did when he embraced George Bush, courted the evangelicals, or most recently as he has backtracked on immigration. So I don’t see his previous stands on taxes as an impediment.

biodun, as for Frank Rich, is the idea here that he doesn’t care how empty the vessel is just as long as it is not angry? Isn’t this just a riff on Bush’s affability? A guy you would like to have a beer with? Hey, Frank Rich, I want a President. I can find beer buddies on my own.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 10:02 am

RWCole – I completely agree on the Huckster. The only way to get him is to hype his sons, and that famous Christmas pix. But, as with Bush, the folks don’t care so much about details such a a 100MPG car.

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 10:03 am

GregB @ 126:

How are ya getting the reply button to work for you?

rwcole January 7th, 2008 at 10:04 am

Hugh

Well I think they’d take him if he’s the only option- but voting against the tax cuts is like a catholic pissin in the holy water.

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 10:04 am

Mods: can you have a word with the backroom boys? Is it me or FDL with the graphics mis-registered and the refresh button missing?

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 10:05 am

Reply
marymccurnin January 7th, 2008 at 9:47 am
111
In response to GregB @ 94
covers the sphincter on his head.

Oh Lordie.
_______

HA! i got a chuckle out of that one too!

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 10:06 am

dosido @ 136:

FDL toobz has been acting up for a while. I’m sure they’re working on it…

Hugh January 7th, 2008 at 10:06 am

biodun, thanks. I just got an email from Jeff Farias. I am currently scheduled to be on at 7PM EST. selise would know about audio files. Me not so much. It is possible to listen to Farias over the net though.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 10:08 am

Hugh etc: On beers, this will not be the main trope in this election. My sense is that it will be: Who would you like to see sitting across from you when you come to dispute an insurance claim:
Rudy?: No way
Romney?: No way
McCain?: Maybe, but you think he is too old and dottering to do it right
Richardson: No way, and also too old.

Hillary: Maybe, but then she is smiling so much you assume she is only the secretary, and her boss will do something different
Edwards: Yes, but then the same as with Hillary. Is he really the one with the power here to make this decision.
Obama: Maybe. At least he is earnest, and you think he will try hard to take it to someone who can do something about it in your favor.

rwcole January 7th, 2008 at 10:08 am

Clusterfuck is now in a position to determine whether the topic of the election will be his fucked up war or his fucked up economy….

Saw ”no end in sight” last night about the war in Iraq. His world famous ”Bring it On” speech is a highlight. After 4,000 deaths, it’s a fairly interesting reminder of just how dingy this fuckhead is.

redX January 7th, 2008 at 10:08 am

OT:

Some other good stuff;

- What half ass tax cut is Bush going to try and get traction on so the Dems can be cast as ”raising taxes”, ”Weak on taxes”, and responsible for the ruin of the econ (not to mention ”talking down the econ”).
- The Dems seem to be talking into a war with Pakistan, and with the Rs they will start a war with Iran (and throw in Pakistan and others later).
- Great book review I heard on NPR for ”free lunch” sick new things you can learn about how the econ ”works”.

Elliott January 7th, 2008 at 10:08 am
In response to Hugh @ 132

biodun, as for Frank Rich, is the idea here that he doesn’t care how empty the vessel is just as long as it is not angry? Isn’t this just a riff on Bush’s affability? A guy you would like to have a beer with? Hey, Frank Rich, I want a President. I can find beer buddies on my own.

I’m writing that down

my bold

puravida January 7th, 2008 at 10:09 am

”sphincter on his head”

Now there’s a visual I could have lived without!

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 10:10 am

Thanks for the reply biodun. glad to know it isn’t me. *g*

Good luck Hugh. You’ve done an awesome job monitoring the Endless Scandal that is George Bush’s reign.

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 10:10 am

Best of luck Hugh!

Raven January 7th, 2008 at 10:11 am
In response to fahrender @ 123

Except Charlie never said it was a normal thing and it was resolved.

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 10:11 am

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 9:58 am
126
In response to fahrender @ 119
I have never called him stupid or have underestimated him. I said many of the Republican party elites see him as an outsider, lower caste man.

-G

well, i think we’re on the same page, but your words were “while he’s as stupid as Bush…” gee, that’s pretty low on the food chain in my book.” anyway, just a quibble …..

Redshift January 7th, 2008 at 10:12 am
In response to rwcole @ 129

Molly Ivins’ description of Bush is equally apropos of Huckabee: “Not stupid, but willfully ignorant and proud of it.” (I’d also agree that while Bush isn’t stupid, he’s not smart either, and Huckabee is.)

Huckabee also seems not to be a flaming asshole like Bush. He’d be a bad and dangerous president, but I don’t think any of the current field (with the possible exception of Giuliani) could possibly top Bush in that department.

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 10:12 am

Richmond at 140

I disagree with a few of your characterizations. Obama looks like an insurance salesman to me. Could be a good thing or not.

redX January 7th, 2008 at 10:13 am

Oh, and you know Bush is in insance talks and nightmares on getting us into Pakistan for more than hot persuit before the Dems come in and ”get er done”.

Not to mention what sort of saber or fear is going to prime for the State of the Union on the 28th (in addition to how he is going to save the econ from the Dem congress… you know 20 billion for S-Chip versus a trillion for one of the wars).

puravida January 7th, 2008 at 10:13 am

Hugh, break a leg! (Does that phrase apply to radio, too?)

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 10:15 am

Redshift

Are you leaning heavily on the word ”seems” when you say Huckabee seems not to be an #######?

The articles I have read about his tenure as gov reveals some real ####### potential…

Katherine Graham Cracker January 7th, 2008 at 10:15 am

hucksterbee humor..think he told this joke to the Teri Schiavo’s fmily

Today on the way up here Matt Mayberry [Dover City Councilor] was driving us. He was telling us about a lady here that had hosted her uncle who had come into New Hampshire for a visit. Kind of a tragic story. He came to visit his niece and while there had a heart attack, and they had to take him to the hospital. They got him to the hospital and after a few minutes the doctor came out and says well ma’am I need to tell you that here’s the situation with your uncle. His brain is dead, but his heart’s still beating. The niece grabbed her cheek and said oh my we’ve never had a Democrat in the family before. [laughter]. I could only get away telling that out of state at a Republican gathering. [applause].
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/200…..05spt.html

Blender January 7th, 2008 at 10:15 am

Gulf of Tonkin, correct. Iran has already been invaded by US special ops units for years – the show of force in the gulf was designed for a reaction so Bush and his roving gang of maniacs could invent a justification for bombing them.

Can we impeach Reid and Pelosi along with the rest of them?

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 10:16 am

Apparently a mob of Paulians chased the repulsive Sean Hannity down the street in Manchester too!

I am going to have to head up to Manchester to watch some of the mayhem.

Maybe I can get off an “f-you” to some of the Foxagandists.

-G

Richmond January 7th, 2008 at 10:16 am

Dosido – on insurance salesman. I (and most I know) go with what the policy covers, and how good the company’s reputation is. That is why I picked the other scenario, and the larger issue of PERCEPTIONS of trust.

Raven January 7th, 2008 at 10:16 am
In response to Blender @ 155

There were plenty of ops in North Vietnam well before Tonkin.

dakine01 January 7th, 2008 at 10:17 am
In response to Richmond @ 140

Just for my own curiosity, where do you get Richardson as too old? Or did you mean Thompson as too old?

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 10:17 am

Bush is shure busy for a lame duck.

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 10:18 am
In response to Raven @ 158

These morons are playing with fire. Tweaking Iran and Pakistan while knee deep in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Madness.

-G

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 10:19 am
In response to rwcole @ 129

Reply
rwcole January 7th, 2008 at 10:00 am
129
I think that the Huckster is plenty bright- and in addition has more crowd pleasing qualities than anyone in the race. He just hasn’t bothered to do his homework on the issues. He seems to throw things out there in the spirit of the moment without thinking them through (billion dollar prize for 100 mpg car the other night).

He’d be a bad prez- but it ain’t stupidity that’s the problem- I’d say he’s WAY brighter than average.

He’s a bass player- likes to drive the rhythm while harmonizing. His timing is imecable as a speaker- never misses a beat- and he’s VERY sensitive to the tones his audience will respond to.

We’ll see how good he is in South Carolina. Another big win and he could be a factor.
____________________

my money says he will win S.C. and he will be a factor. i said a couple of days ago that he would probably run the tables down south and he will get a lot of other midwestern and western states. this is why the big boys are so nervous. here’s a guy who very few people really knows and who is beholden to none of the Power Elites and he WILL be a force in Minneapolis, speaking of which, i’ll bet he takes Minnesota….

Redshift January 7th, 2008 at 10:19 am
In response to Richmond @ 51

I don’t think it’s really meaningful to say “Congress has even worse poll numbers.” First, Congress always has pretty low poll numbers, because it’s much easier to hate a group or an institution than an individual. Ratings for “my congressman” are always much higher than for Congress. Second, Congress’ ratings are the result of both the Dems and the Republicans, despite the efforts by the Noise Machine to refer to them as poll numbers for the “Democrat-controlled Congress.” On the few polls that ask about congressional Democrats and Republicans separately, ratings for congressional Republicans are much lower than Dems.

Just a bit of food for thought.

Bustednuckles January 7th, 2008 at 10:19 am
In response to dosido @ 160

So was Daffy, avoiding hunting season.

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 10:19 am

Richmond. point taken. thanks.

egregious January 7th, 2008 at 10:19 am
In response to GregB @ 161

Shiny new war. Pay no attention to those old icky wars that aren’t doing so well.

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 10:20 am
In response to fahrender @ 148

Please dig up where I used that phrase.

-G

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 10:20 am

”Where’s the beef?”: If it didn’t work for Mondale, it probably won’t work for Mama either:

*****
Interviewed on ABC’s ’’Good Morning America,’’ Clinton pointed out that Obama has portrayed himself as being outside the influence of special interests yet picked a New Hampshire lobbyist to co-chair his campaign in the state. She also accused him of changing positions on issues, even though he criticizes other candidates for the same thing.

’’All of a sudden you start to ask yourself, Wait a minute. I mean, what is the substance here?’’ she said. ’’What, as famously was said years ago, where’s the beef? You know, where is the reality?’’

As for Obama, he had an enviable logistical problem. Hundreds of people couldn’t get into his speech at the Lebanon Opera House, so he addressed them with a microphone from the steps.

’’You guys caught us a little by surprise,’’ he said. ’’You’re the wave and I’m riding it.’’
*****

My bold.

Linky: http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..n-Rdp.html

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 10:22 am

*Richardson as too old?*

He’s not too old. He’s just on quaaludes…

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 10:23 am

puravida January 7th, 2008 at 10:09 am
144
”sphincter on his head”

Now there’s a visual I could have lived without!

________________

that visual has DEEP meaning ……

rwcole January 7th, 2008 at 10:23 am

Pakistan IS dangerous- but they don’t have oil so don’t worry Mushy- Clusterfuck ain’t comin after YOU.

Dumbest candidate from either party is probably McCain. Couldn’t think his way out of a brown paper bag and with the social skills of a skunk.

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 10:24 am

Reply
Raven January 7th, 2008 at 10:11 am
147
In response to fahrender @ 123
Except Charlie never said it was a normal thing and it was resolved.

_____________

i don’t remember Charlie getting asked.

Redshift January 7th, 2008 at 10:25 am
In response to dosido @ 153

Yeah, it might have been more accurate to say he doesn’t act like an asshole. I’m not laying any bets on what he’s really like.

That’s one of the things that always mystified me about the “have a beer with’ crap with Bush. To me, he always seemed like the kind of guy who, if you had a beer with him, would get drunk, yell to the biggest guy in the bar that his mother is a whore, and then claim that you did it and hide behind you.

rwcole January 7th, 2008 at 10:25 am

Hillary is absolutely correct in saying that Obama has gotten this far on thin abstractions. THAT- by the way- is the GOAL in a primary- win without commiting yourself to much of anything. It’s an art form.

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 10:26 am

Chimpy’s off on a Middle East junket tomorrow (sans Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan) and is taking Condi with him. Taking a break from the Huckabee juggernaut…

rwcole January 7th, 2008 at 10:27 am

Don’t know that Clusterfuck’s doin Condi- but Lord that would be a bony experience.

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 10:28 am

Redshift January 7th, 2008 at 10:12 am
149
In response to rwcole @ 129
Molly Ivins’ description of Bush is equally apropos of Huckabee: “Not stupid, but willfully ignorant and proud of it.” (I’d also agree that while Bush isn’t stupid, he’s not smart either, and Huckabee is.)

Huckabee also seems not to be a flaming asshole like Bush. He’d be a bad and dangerous president, but I don’t think any of the current field (with the possible exception of Giuliani) could possibly top Bush in that department.
________________________

i loved Molly and i agree with you about Huckabee, but being (”…..willfully ignorant and proud of it.” is pretty much a perfect definition of stupid, to me.

hackworth January 7th, 2008 at 10:28 am

Stay as long as you want, Chimp, Condi. They love you guys over there.

Katherine Graham Cracker January 7th, 2008 at 10:29 am

”Where’s the beef?”: If it didn’t work for Mondale, it probably won’t work for Mama either:

it did work for Mondale he said to Gary hart

tanbark January 7th, 2008 at 10:29 am

This is OT, but certainly worth noting. For Clinton, panic is starting to kick in, in New Hampshire, and it’s forcing her to show her hand.

Here she is; again moving to the right.

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/….._0105.html

Katherine Graham Cracker January 7th, 2008 at 10:31 am

This is OT, but certainly worth noting. For Clinton, panic is starting to kick in, in New Hampshire, and it’s forcing her to show her hand.

Here she is; again moving to the right.

how is that different from Obama invading Pakistan to get bin laden

Biodun Iginla January 7th, 2008 at 10:31 am

*it did work for Mondale he said to Gary hart*

Nope. Mondale said it to Reagan in 1984.

Redshift January 7th, 2008 at 10:31 am
In response to rwcole @ 174

Heck, it’s the goal of a general-election win (though to a lesser extent.) Like it or not, people don’t vote on programs and policies, they vote on hopes and expectations. And though I’d like policy proposals to figure into it more, it does make a certain amount of sense — the details of the policy proposals certainly won’t survive for long in legislation, and you’re electing a president to deal with the things you don’t know about yet, not just the ones you do.

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 10:33 am

Redshift

LOL. Perfect Bush description! What a jerk.

Redshift January 7th, 2008 at 10:34 am
In response to fahrender @ 177

i loved Molly and i agree with you about Huckabee, but being (”…..willfully ignorant and proud of it.” is pretty much a perfect definition of stupid, to me.

Well, I think the distinction is that Bush is cunning. A stupid person wouldn’t be able to be as successful politically as he is, but he’s never wanted to apply that intelligence to acquiring knowledge or doing anything good for anyone but himself.

yellowsnapdragon January 7th, 2008 at 10:34 am

Every time the chimp leaves the country I hope it’s because a big scandal is about to break and he needs to look presidential.

But how many more scandals can a president have (and not get sacked for ’em)?

tanbark January 7th, 2008 at 10:35 am

RWCole@117:

Spot on. McCain has had the smack-junkie thigh-sweats for the oval office for so long, it’s addled his brain. Throw in plain old senility, and he’d be a non-compis figurehead sitting in the prez’s chair, with someone behind him pulling the strings. Oh, wait….

LS January 7th, 2008 at 10:36 am

“John McCain’s list of official and formal policy advisers includes former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, General Colin Powell, William Kristol of The Weekly Standard, and former CIA Director James Woolsey.”

http://www.democracynow.org/20….._linked_us

Sounds like the chosen one to me.

Katherine Graham Cracker January 7th, 2008 at 10:36 am

The phrase was associated with the 1984 U.S. presidential election. During primaries in the spring of 1984, when the commercial was at its height of popularity, Democratic candidate and former Vice President Walter Mondale ridiculed the candidacy of his rival, Senator Gary Hart, by using the phrase during a March 11, 1984 televised debate prior to the New York and Pennsylvania primaries.

Hart had moved his candidacy from dark horse to the lead over Mondale based on his repeated use of the phrase ”new ideas”. When Hart once again used the slogan in the debate, Mondale leaned forward and said, ”When I hear your new ideas, I’m reminded of that ad, ’Where’s the beef?’” The line got a great response from the audience. Subsequently, the two campaigns continually clashed using the two dueling slogans (Hart presented his book, published later, to the press between two slices of bun).

JamesJoyce January 7th, 2008 at 10:36 am

Ron Paul legitimate 3rd place contender has his political speech snubbed and exposure limitated by corp ”brat” media. Sounds a little ”nazish” to me!

Musharraf now blames Bhutto for her own death!!! Selise, did you call this? Never mind she was murdered…. it’s her fault? Go *uck yourself Musharraf!!!!

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 10:37 am

Yeah, I notice Bush really needs his beer and pretzels with a hamburger or hot dog. Doesn’t like to leave the country cuz he can barely speak English and doesn’t like knowing that the brown people speak it better than he does.

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 10:37 am

GregB January 7th, 2008 at 10:20 am
167
In response to fahrender @ 148
Please dig up where I used that phrase.

-G

i went back and checked it. it was actually Nelson Algren who made the statement. he was referencing you in a previous quote and so your name got included. sorry to have given the impression that it was you that made the statement. mea culpa

LS January 7th, 2008 at 10:39 am

W..”What do ya mean no…I know you really want it”…

tanbark January 7th, 2008 at 10:40 am

dear Katherine; there’s this little thing called ”megatons”.

As bad as Iraq is, would you see any difference if bush had nuked Baghdad to get Saddam?

There now, that wasn’t so hard, was it?

Hillary Clinton is nothing but a lifeboat for the GOP to have to run against, and now, it looks like she’s sinking. We’ll know more about that in 24 hours, but even if she manages to pull out a win, no more instant coronation; now she has to run the whole race, and that’s something that she cannot do, and take the nomination. :o)

Raven January 7th, 2008 at 10:41 am
In response to fahrender @ 172

They asked him in 1999!

In 1995, retired Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap, meeting with former Secretary of Defense Robert S. McNamara, categorically denied that Vietnamese gunboats had attacked American destroyers on 4 August, while admitting to the attack on 2 August.[17][18] A taped conversation of a meeting several weeks after passage of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution was released in 2001, revealing that McNamara expressed doubts to President Lyndon B. Johnson that the attack had even occurred. Taking into consideration documents and transcripts released by the U.S. National Security Agency and the Lyndon Baines Johnson Library and Museum, the consensus is that this second attack never happened.[citat

Hugh January 7th, 2008 at 10:46 am

“John McCain’s list of official and formal policy advisers includes former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, General Colin Powell, William Kristol of The Weekly Standard, and former CIA Director James Woolsey.”

http://www.democracynow.org/20….._linked_us

Sounds like the chosen one to me.

———————————————————-

LS, you left off Torquemada from your list.

fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 10:48 am
In response to Redshift @ 185

Redshift January 7th, 2008 at 10:34 am
185
In response to fahrender @ 177
i loved Molly and i agree with you about Huckabee, but being (”…..willfully ignorant and proud of it.” is pretty much a perfect definition of stupid, to me.

Well, I think the distinction is that Bush is cunning. A stupid person wouldn’t be able to be as successful politically as he is, but he’s never wanted to apply that intelligence to acquiring knowledge or doing anything good for anyone but himself.
_________

he was successful primarily due to Cheney and Rove, James Baker, his father’s connections and very little on his own. left to his own devices he wields a pretty good chain saw.

juslin January 7th, 2008 at 10:52 am

hey pups… i’m having probs getting thru…

bigbrother January 7th, 2008 at 11:01 am

Biodun January 7th, 2008 at 9:27 am 80
OT–
Oh, not to worry:
Filed at 12:10 p.m. ET
Linky: http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..-Navy.html

No one can hear me scream… IMPEACN NOW! Shit happen all the time with this administration…more foriegn policy disaters coming.

Jacqrat January 7th, 2008 at 11:03 am

“FUCK YOU, FRANK!!!”

(satisfied sigh) I wasn’t the first to say it but damn, that felt GOOOOOOD.

Plisko January 7th, 2008 at 11:17 am

Is there ever a point when media outlets can be charged with election tampering?

moondancer January 7th, 2008 at 11:20 am

Just saw three different YouTube clips from three different months of Luntz focus group of independent voters with the same people. Amazing identical twins living in Iowa and New Hampshire. All Republican, all well rehearsed.

bigbrother January 7th, 2008 at 11:26 am

Reply
fahrender January 7th, 2008 at 9:55 am 123
O/T breaking news -
Sounds just like the Gulf of Tonkin

Yes! I plays like this…Now we are at war with Iraq, Iran,Pakistan and Afghanistan Jihad Americans must make the sacrifice for the war effort…all domestic progrsms will be on hold, taxes will increase.
We must sacrifice for the war effort!!!

JamesJoyce January 7th, 2008 at 11:28 am

Yes take civility and shove it Frank! I’m sure there were some very heated exchanges in Philly back then. Do not tell me to be civil when the red hot poker is being shoved up my pie-hole while you pull you Yuppy scum PC bullshit card……… Yes Frank, stuff it!!!

tbetz January 7th, 2008 at 11:47 am

Paulites have been beating up on Luntz for a while now.

YouTube is rife with stuff like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3BDvfAf2c4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auFYQY_iOQ0

leftdcin72 January 7th, 2008 at 11:51 am

I believe the consensus is or close to it that William Bundy wrote the Gulf of Tonkin resolution with full knowledge that the underlying event never happened. Probably an inspiration for Bush/Cheney.

MarkH January 7th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
In response to WarOnWarOff @ 24

Luntz called them “mean.”

Heh. The master of political language framing at work, kids.

They weren’t mean, just average for Republicans.

Seriously, if the Repubs keep Paulites shut out then after the primaries they ought to vote for the Dem nominee to completely squash the Repub establishment and show them it isn’t wise to push aside one of the top vote-getters.

Moon January 7th, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Frank ”the control freak” Luntz. His ’performance’ on CSPAN’S Washington Journal was unbelievable. He took a show that is all about the viewers and a venue for the public to speak, and turned it into his own overbearing, ”nobody really gets to have an opinion but me”, show. Thank you Ron Paul supporter for putting this asshole in his place. How does it feel Frank, to lose control?

MarkH January 7th, 2008 at 12:11 pm

Anyone know where he’s gone wrong?

In Repug terms his mistake has been to NOT sell-out. He apparently has some principles and that just does not go over well on the Repub side.

MarkH January 7th, 2008 at 12:19 pm

Electing Obama may not be change…it may be same old same old.

You can’t unite and reach across the aisle and such without compromising some. How much depends upon the person.

I think what most of us are hoping for is a working majority, so we can get things done without much compromise at all. Taking the senate will be nearly impossible, but if we get close we’d still get a lot done. So, part of the question is whether our party’s nominee can help us get the working majority. Nobody really knows which would be best at that.

I say ‘nobody knows’ because we don’t really know whether Obama won Iowa on his own merits!

If he did, then he’s the guy. If he didn’t, then we might have more difficulty than we wanted. Worst yet, if he’s in on a Rovian plan, then he might sabotage the party and cause massive problems.

God, I wish I had some information to base a decision on. This must be how Clinton & Edwards felt when the AUMF vote came up. Of course, it’s very Bushie/Rovian to put this kind of impossible situation to the opponent(s). We just have to deal with it.

AntiWarProPeace January 7th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

Oh, hahaha! The anti war movement FINALLY is doing what they should have been doing a long time ago – calling out a war mongering, zionist shill. Luntz, in one of his post debate ”focus groups”, actaully had a freeper plant who just happened to blurt out, ”we all know Ron Paul is insane”. Good for the Paul folks! It’s about freaking time. We aren’t going to take this country back from the Repuke neocons and their two faced enabling Dems by being passive and polite. I’m glad my state state has an open primary because I’ll be crossing over for this one.

Paul supporters chase Hannity down New Hampshire street – ”Fox you suck!”:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUXKddQvC1o

MarkH January 7th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
In response to rwcole @ 174

Hillary is absolutely correct in saying that Obama has gotten this far on thin abstractions. THAT- by the way- is the GOAL in a primary- win without commiting yourself to much of anything. It’s an art form.

A “new kind of politics” huh?

Maybe it’s just a fancy way of lying to people. Promise pie in the sky and let them find out later it was just a mirage.

Count me out. I want some specifics and Edwards is the candidate who connects with people and provides a Progressive vision with a lot of detail.

Ya know, the more we discuss Obama the less I like him, regardless of whether he’s in league with Republicans or not. How can a person who is supposedly as Liberal as him (his voting record) attract so many Republicans without lying? It makes no sense.

John Edwards for President — Leadership America needs!

AntiWarProPeace January 7th, 2008 at 12:44 pm

Quoting:

tbetz January 7th, 2008 at 11:47 am 205
Paulites have been beating up on Luntz for a while now.

YouTube is rife with stuff like these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3BDvfAf2c4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auFYQY_iOQ0

*********************

WOW! Thanks for those. Obviously, since the plant shills for McCain in a couple instances, and then Romney in another, the message is anybody but Ron Paul.

And Edwards? Puhleeeeze. He’s another ”no option is off the table” for Iran.

********

Mr. Speaker, I rise in strong opposition to this very dangerous legislation. My colleagues would do well to understand that this legislation is leading us toward war against Iran.

Those reading this bill may find themselves feeling a sense of déjà vu. In many cases one can just substitute ”Iraq” for ”Iran” in this bill and we could be back in the pre-2003 run up to war with Iraq. And the logic of this current push for war is much the same as was the logic used in the argument for war on Iraq. As earlier with Iraq, this resolution demands that Iran perform the impossible task of proving a negative – in this case that Iran does not have plans to build a nuclear weapon.

There are a few things we need to remember when thinking about Iran and this legislation. First, Iran has never been ruled in violation of its international nuclear non-proliferation obligations.

Second, Iran concluded a Safeguards Agreement more than 30 years ago that provides for the verification of Iran’s fulfillment of its obligation to not divert nuclear energy programs to nuclear weapons development. Since this agreement was reached, the International Atomic Energy Agency has never found any indication that Iran has diverted or attempted to divert source or special nuclear materials from a peaceful purpose to a military purpose.

But, this does not stop those eager for conflict with Iran from stating otherwise. As the Washington Post reported last year, ”U.S. officials, eager to move the Iran issue to the U.N. Security Council – which has the authority to impose sanctions – have begun a new round of briefings for allies designed to convince them that Iran’s real intention is to use its energy program as a cover for bomb building. The briefings will focus on the White House’s belief that a country with as much oil as Iran would not need an energy program on the scale it is planning, according to two officials.”

This reminds us of the quick move to justify the invasion of Iraq by citing Iraq’s ”intentions” when actual weapons of mass destruction could not be found.

The resolution’s second resolved clause is a real misrepresentation of the Iran/EU3 talks. The ”efforts of France, Germany, and the United Kingdom” were not ”to seek…suspension of enrichment and reprocessing related activities…” As the EU3-Iran Paris Agreement makes very clear, the suspension of enrichment is a purely voluntary measure taken by Iran and is ”not a legal obligation.”

This is similar to the situation with Iran’s voluntarily observation of the Additional Protocols (allowing unannounced inspections) without legally being bound to do so. Suspending voluntary observance of the Additional Protocols is not a violation of the NPT. But, those seeking to push us toward war with Iran are purposely trying to connect the two – to confuse voluntary ”confidence building” measures taken by Iran with the legally-binding Treaty itself.

Resolved clause four of this legislation is the most inflammatory and objectionable part of the legislation. It lowers the bar to initiating war on Iran. This clause anticipates that the US may not be successful in getting the Security Council to pass a Resolution because of the potential of a Russian or Chinese veto, so it ”calls upon” Russia and China to ”take action” in response to ”any report” of ”Iran’s noncompliance. That is right: any report.

Mr. Speaker, this resolution is a drumbeat for war with Iran. Its logic is faulty, its premises are flawed, and its conclusions are dangerous. I urge my colleagues to stop for a moment and ponder the wisdom of starting yet another war in the Middle East.

- Congressman Ron Paul, on the floor in the House of Representatives
February 20, 2006

AntiWarProPeace January 7th, 2008 at 1:03 pm

Quote:

dosido January 7th, 2008 at 10:37 am Yeah, I notice Bush really needs his beer and pretzels with a hamburger or hot dog. Doesn’t like to leave the country cuz he can barely speak English and doesn’t like knowing that the brown people speak it better than he does.

************

Oh, come one. Race baiting is so 90s. Bush is a fascsist asshole, but he speaks fluent Spanish and helped engineer the SPP with his fuck buddy Vicente Fox. Bush doen’t have a color problem, he has a corporate problem.

flowmaster January 7th, 2008 at 2:27 pm

“Paul is a characteristic libertarian, meaning NO government at all. “

That is a bit of mischaracterization… he is for LIMITED federal government.

“That is pretty nuts in and of itself, back to the laissez faire capitalism that brought us the robber barrons and child labor.”

Where are you getting this from?

Rogera January 7th, 2008 at 4:34 pm

The person who made the videos has more on his website at http://www.chrisbrunner.com/20…..-a-teaser/

NewsHoundEllen January 7th, 2008 at 5:20 pm

We at News Hounds (We watch FOX so you don’t have to) feel that Romney is currently FOX News’ candidate of choice, now that Giuliani seems to be out of the picture, at least for the time being. But they are definitely pro-McCain, especially as compared to Mike Huckabee (who has been smeared on Hannity & Colmes more than Hillary Clinton of late) and even more so to Ron Paul.

Cheers!

elliotthund January 7th, 2008 at 8:09 pm

Although Luntz is a Fox News tool, the guy who showed up at two focus groups in New Hampshire was more likely because of sloppiness and laziness than any other motive.

I live in a city where Frankie does many focus groups– a few blocks from my house. It’s always a quick 100 bucks to go sit and play with his “patented Fox News Dials” (they are actually not patented, and not from Fox News), and get a preview of what agenda will be pushed next.

I have done over TEN groups with him— they never check who they hire— they just need to fill the seats to look good for whatever client is behind the one-way glass.

I have been in many groups where people walk out. He insults people, forces the ‘correct’ answers from people, browbeats people…. He’ll cut you off if you give an opinion he does not like.

Once, when he left the room the whole group was so pi**ed off, we all agreed to swing his ‘dials’ at random– and he concocted ‘trends’ from this to prove a later point.

Scientific, indeed.

He’s just another B.S. artist making a buck…. just like me, also making a buck (from him).

AntiWarProPeace January 7th, 2008 at 10:04 pm

Rogera, that is a great link! Thanks, I’ll pass it on.

Elliothund, I belive the Luntz/Fox plant was in two different cities, at two different debates. He’s been intentified as a neoCON freeper, though I can’t recall his name.

Oh, and, FUCK YOU FRANK!

lol

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