The conventional wisdom is that Barack Obama’s dramatic surge in the New Hampshire polls is attributable to the "bounce" one might expect from his convincing victory in Iowa. But an interesting theory by Jesse Wendel at The Group News Blog suggests it might also result from the way in which Obama, Edwards and Clinton speak even more than the substantive content of what each is saying.
What triggered my interest in Wendel’s theory was watching CNN show Obama at a New Hampshire rally Sunday, in which he delivered essentially the same speech that the media swooned over Thursday night. On Thursday night, the effect was electric; he was inspiring, uplifting; he raised hopes. By contrast, Sunday morning, virtually the same words and phrases seemed lifeless.
To be sure, they’re all probably exhausted. But for whatever reason, the same words that had been so moving Thursday night seemed dead Sunday. Worse, there was little substance to those words — he wasn’t really saying much about programs, proposals, promises, his experience or competence versus theirs — the points we normally expect to hear from a candidate. And yet Obama is surging, so is there something about the way Obama speaks at key moments, that is driving his dramatic rise in the polls?
Wendel’s analysis sees Obama using language that is "declaratory," and he equates that to human perceptions of how leaders speak. They declare a reality and by saying it help bring it about. When Obama talks about not wanting Blue versus Red America, but instead wanting to lead a United States of America, that very simple rhetoric helps create the unity he’s describing. It’s that leadership quality to which people are responding, even though his rivals can challenge his substantive claims to leadership in the Senate — as when Clinton asks, "what has [he] actually done to change things?"
Obama is breaking out now because he speaks the language of a leader.
Obama’s vision is true right now. . . .
He’s not making promises, even when the words coming out of his mouth are a promise. ALL of everything he’s saying is a declaration, a future which is true now because he speaks it.
When Obama speaks, he creates a future of an America in which all of us together will take on the troubles we know in our heart are coming and repair the damages which have occurred. Every time Obama opens his mouth, that future is more and more real. It happens AS he speaks. Obama’s speaking makes it so. By declaration.
Senators Edwards and Clinton also have very distinctive speaking patterns. Wendel suggests Edwards is making conditional promises — "I can reform American but only if you support me as your leader." (More videos via C&L). But, Wendel suggests, just saying it now doesn’t make it so now; we’re left with a disconnect, even if we strongly support Edwards and his objectives. Clinton, on the other hand, emphasizes her experience and competence (see videos), and those who support her immediately agree that if she were President, she would indeed know what to do and would work hard to achieve it — but it doesn’t inspire the way Obama’s manner of speaking apparently does.
Clinton uses the language of a worker, the language of deep experience and competence. She knows what she’s doing. She tells us you can trust her judgment, knowledge and understanding, her years and years of being on the job, wisdom and training. She is no doubt genuinely baffled that anyone would choose someone who doesn’t have the competency and vetting she has. That is someone immersed in a world in which what matters most is competence in a domain, competence ruling over everything, the world in which the workers love their queen.
None of this analysis suggests any candidate is preferable to others. Instead, all three can be excellent in their own paradigms. But it may explain why Obama is pulling ahead, while both Clinton and Edwards are falling back or stagnating, even though, IMO, both have clearly improved how they present their own strengths.
I don’t know whether any of this is correct, but it may give us a clue about why, even if the Clinton campaign "retools" or she and Edwards do a better job of presenting themselves, it may not matter . . . unless there’s a shock to Obama’s [the leader's] credibility.
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Wow. Fourth poll I’ve seen in the last two days with similar numbers.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/200…..cs_poll_dc
Good morning Scarecrow!
Oh and screw Sam Nunn and all the other losers in Norman Okla today
I’ve watched Obama’s speeches with wonder and dread. He is a true snake oil salseman, lots and lots of push the warm fuzzy buttons verbage, but NO content. NO plans or particulars. The only comperable examples I see on TV today are the televangelist, or Talibangelicals. That and Rick Santorums first campaign(Santorum.Noun.the frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter frequently resulting from anal sex) Remember that one? “Vote Freedom First!” Sounds GREAT but dosen’t say ANYTHING! That’s Obama. And LAWDY HEP you if you DARE point that out or critisize Obama in ANYway whatsoever. If we get stuck with this empty suite in the GE I will hold my nose and grit my teeth and vote for him, but COMON people, don’t FORCE me to do THAT!
Yep, and CNN’s John Robertrs reports, without any evidence, that “a lot of people are saying that the dream ticket would be Bloomberg and Hagel.”
Good morning everyone.
People I know tend to talk politics with me since they no it is my passion. Everyone is talking about Obama. I keep repeating that Edwards is my choice….but they shake their heads and repeat that Obama’s the guy. It’s his oratory skills. He’s inspired all those that follow politics marginally. Not the know-nothings. Not the ones that vote straight party without a thought. These are the people that tune in right about now. And they’re all loving Barack.
Could be that Clinton is trying to do the Ginger Rogers thing—Fred Astaire got all the credit but Ginger did the same thing backwards and in high heels. Women have, for ages, had to prove that they were 2x as good in order to get a job. So it makes sense that competence is what her platform is built on.
Not that I care much. As much as I want a woman in the WH she isn’t the one I would want.
To me, Obama’s speeches are full of empty words and bright shiny objects. I mean, more so than the normal political speach. It is a clarion call to action… of some unspecified nature.
The analysis above strikes me as akin to the Bushies’ “We are not reality based. We create reality when we act”
Then we’re doomed.
Oh, and good morning Scarecrow et al.
Hi Scarecrow.
Before we judge Obama we should read his website which at first pass seems to be big on details.
That being said, I am VERY wary of any great speaker…especially where substance is lacking.
Obama seems a good guy, but a look at history will show some very bad people who were electrifying speakers. No comparison, just a caution.
Given the significant momentum for Obama, especially among independents and the ever ephemeral “moderate Republicans”, I’m thinking more and more that a winning strategy could be to put all our effort into making Edwards the VP on an Obama ticket. I am intrigued about what Edwards could do to undo the damage Cheney has done with his army of lawyers. Who better to do that than Edwards?
If Edwards could replace Lieberman as Obama’s mentor, then we could work to get Obama to move in a more progressive direction once he is elected.
Just sayin’.
but for how long~will they stick with him when the slinging starts?
So if I announce loudly and authoritatively that Bush is about to be impeached, removed, and put on trial for war crimes… …it helps the reality come about?
My comment about the content of the main speech is just about that particular speech. Obama, like the other candidates, does have position papers on all sorts of topics on his site. I don’t mean to suggest that he has no substantive positions; I’m just noting that the speech people are responding to doesn’t seem to contain much of that content — it’s a different kind of speech and is appealing to people in different ways.
btw, the CNN coverage I saw was about mid-morning sunday, but I haven’t seen a video of it since.
I don’t know if we’re doomed. If it turns out to be Obama and he’s the victim of swiftboating then his oratory skills may help him. Kerry didn’t have that and neither did Gore. Of course, I’m still hoping that Edwards will be the last man standing.
The WaPo reminds us this morning and the chimp ran as a uniting candidate. But, his campaign was specifics-free. Barracks reminds me a lot of Bushie in this regard.
…with Bob Kerrey at Defense, Joe Lieberman at State and Mickey Kaus as White House spokesman.
BTW,FWIW, On the Chris Matthews show yesterday they asked the pool of pundits if Obama would be the nominee. All 12 said ‘yes’.
George Lakoff has done amazing work (IMHO) on framing. Framing messages, talking points, blah, blah, blah. And once a frame is locked in (e.g., John Kerry = flip-flopper), it’s hard as billy hell to shift it elsewhere. Frank Luntz (GOP guru) was/is masterful at this. And as usual, the Dems trail far behind, learning slowly and sometimes not very well.
My point (and I do have one — thanks, Ellen) is that Clinton is so all-over the map with her message it’s almost impossible to latch on anywhere. And even though she’s “framed” herself as the experience queen, it’s not the right message. We’ve all “experienced” the past seven years, so we’ve got a lot of it, too. And we can spot an opportunist from far away.
Obama’s message frame seems to be “change,” period. Good concept, but severely overworked in this campaign cycle. And because others have latched onto it, it’s been diluted into meaninglessness.
Edwards is a change-frame guy, too, accompanied by the specific of challenging the status quo via going mano a mano with corporations. Not sure that’s a play-in-Peoria concept. Spot on but esoteric.
Even though it’s cadging an already-spoken-for phrase, I wonder if what’s really wanted by the rank and file is the “take back America” theme. We’ve already paid the ransom via endless funding of George’s war. It’s time for payoff. Give us back our country, bunky.
Babbling a bit, but I wish/hope that Lakoff is in the thick of message development. Why? Because he believes it has to be more than catchy words. If the speaker doesn’t mean it, it doesn’t mean a darn thing. And we’ve had way too much of that from BushCo.
*spew!*
Good Morning Scarecrow and everyone.
fascinating about Obama’s “two” speeches.
Yes, I completely agree on the need to consider everything he’s saying and proposals on his site. Again, I’m just focusing on that particular speech and why it might be having such an effect.
For example, if you knew nothing about the candidates, but only saw Saturday night’s debate, one might come away with a very different impression of Obama. He didn’t goof up, but his performance then did not seem the kind of thing we’re talking about. Edwards and Clinton were both very effective in the debate, I thought, in conveying their strengths and what their campaign were about. So something else is going on to account for this surge, and Wendel is suggesting a possible explanation for part of it.
Obama talks a good game, as for specifics that is not his bag. HRC has loads of experience at being first woman…but not for sex. Edwards on the other hand has taken on the big companies and has made the bastards pay for their transgressions. In a country owned by big bidness I want someone who knows that being conciliatory to self interested greedy corporations is not going to get you anywhere. You have to fight big bidness tooth and bloody nail, give no quarter and strip them of their purchased politicians.
Re: announcing Bush about to be impeached et al
Someone(s) need to get that elevated to first tier radar. (How’s that for a hopelessly mixed metaphor?!) McGovern pressed for it yesterday or day before. He’ll be blown off as a fossil. Who’s gonna call out Reid and Pelosi? I mean REALLY call ‘em out?
Must go. See all later.
how about millions of people on the DC mall?
Yes, points well taken. Thanks for a fascinating write-up.
Obama plays the race card…good
Clinton plays the gender card …bad
I think Obama plays a dangerous game. The media hates Clinton and Obama has tapped into that to spread rumors and disinformation (The Richardson rumor on caucus night) Once the primary is over, the media will turn on him if he is the nominee.
Obama – I am a leader. Follow me.
Edwards – These are my goals. Will you follow me?
Clinton – I’ve proven that I am a leader. Why don’t you believe me?
Edwards is asking people to buy in to his goals.
Clinton is asking people for recognition of her achievements.
Obama isn’t asking anything of the voter other than to follow him. Dangerous.
Then we’re doomed.
Yea, and that’s news?
name the time and date and I’m there.
Frankly I am hoping that they keep the chimpenator in Israel.
How is Wexler’s effort going? Last I heard, he had about 170,000 people endorsing his call for House Judiciary Committee hearings for Cheney’s impeachment.
The “Take Back America” annual conference is scheduled for mid-March in D.C. The 17-19th, I think. Anyone a good organizer? Several thousand hard-core activists already there from all over the country.
I have seen Barack Obama 5 times on the campaign trail in NH over the summer and into the Fall( writing for BelowBoston.com we’ve saw all 8 and got to question a few of the people running on our side) and that is exactly the phenomenon that you describe. He can be very flat in appearances;it’s odd but frequent. The number of people I have interviewed before a Town Hall style format in which Obama is set to appear is striking for the percentage of whom seem to expect a “Boston convention”speech. These people left disapppointed. I couldn’t help but wonder if once they got home they told a neighbor or a friend – he’s not so great.
The speech he gave post Iowa definitely helped him. That is an understatement. He seems to know when the big speech is called for – when the whole Nation and particularly NH was watching. His instincts are spot on: that was not the night to thank people like an acceptance of an award that was the night to make another Boston Convention speech.
But he seems to get bored and irritated about always having to give a rhetorical “masterpiece”.
i said this on another thread here this a.m. and at risk of being assinine, will say it again:
Mccain
Obama
Goldberg
Golberg shifts people’s thinking to safety zone
idealists who are left vote Obama
McCain wins because fear will out over hope
this is why the repubs are so happy it’s Obama
we lose
now i better go do some work
*spew! again* now I’m going to have to change my clothes *g*
psst nomolos,
I left you a note at the bottom of the last thread about when you have to give your social security number and more importantly when you don’t.
oh yeah, and Obama says to a crowd:
“America is BacK!”
that is so dim witted and pandering to the lowest common denominator consumer mentality
he’ll be quoting britney next
He set the bar for himself mile-high at the Dem convention. I attended a big dinner in the Twin Cities a couple of years ago (the annual Humphrey Day gig), and while everyone else was ooh-ing and ah-ing about his stellar speech that night, I thought it was mediocre at best. The thing is that people are so desperate to find something/someone in whom to believe, to trust, and I’m not sure that’s possible in the political arena. We’ve been burned big time by both parties.
something like that. It’s not exactly Obama saying “I am the leader, follow me.” It’s more like, “I want us to be a united country,” and when people move towards him, the country becomes more united. that’s the theory. Is it valid? Dunno.
The question I have about this notion is whether Obama is the only one of the three who could make such declarations and get this response. If Edwards and/or Clinton used the same language, would they elicit the same response? You can see the other candidates adopting each other’s messages from time to time. But if it’s a combination of message and personality types, then the others can’t emulate this well.
My amateur psych part 1, ahem:
It is an “us and them” tenor in both Clinton and Edwards.
With Edwards he has used words such as, “What a president should be…” and “There are two Americas..” Thus he sets up an unconscious wonder about whether he will be always act on behalf of one side or another. There is also a distinct physical problem he has in his blink rate/eye contact. Sometimes after a statement his apearance changes which causes doubt..as if he is performing for a client.
With Hillary, she is stuck in a focus group. How often we heard that she “will try to bring..” or has “has tried..” Until recently that is. Now she is more “I will.” Bill is subtly sabotaging her, unfortunately.
thank you so much for this. i’ve been looking for info on that. do you have any contact info?? any org. i can go to?
Thanks Elliot. I will print and keep that list.
You are known by the company you keep
in Cal, Steve Westley is Obama’s campaign chair
a Democrat in name only
anyone here planning on going to TBA? earlybird reg. deadline is . . . . .TODAY!
Totally OT, but this a.m. on Imus, Richard M. Cohen [Mr. Meredith Vieira] appeared to promo his new book, Strong at the Broken Places, about people living with chronic illness and disability. I wrote a bit about it–many here live with these issues, as patient or caregiver, sounds well worth a look. Maybe a future Book Salon subject?
I’ve been recently thinking that much of Obama’s success has more to do with a societal sea change that has been building for quite a while, and not so much about him. A lot of people (especially myself) have been tired of being told “that’s just the way Warshington works,” yet it’s been decades now of of a downward spiral in DeeCee at least. It makes sense that younger people are behind him, since they’re sitting there thinking, “y’all Who Know Better have had the reins for a long time, and you’re screwing it up. Our turn.”
Obama is able to hit just the right notes at just the right time, and the particulars of strategy and policy don’t seem to matter much, now that we as a country have seemed to hit the tipping point, and Obama seems to have provided the spark. Not sure Obama would be having this success if he came along in 2000 or 1992 for instance.
Funny…I’ve been working my way through the book “Tipping Point” recently by Malcom Gladwell, and it seems like I’m watching it play out right before my eyes with Obama, and it did play out with the netroots a few years ago.
Regardless of what people think about the specifics, it hard to argue with the results Obama is having in terms of getting people out to vote, and we know that when more people vote, more Democrats win. More and Better Democrats on the way!
I think you’re right about the electorate being hungry for something they can believe in, who embraces their hopes for ending the national nightmare. I wrote Saturday night that I think people seem to see that in Obama more than others, but it is because he really embodies that, or folks are just hoping/projecting?
The country is united. 70% are against the illegal invasion. Over 70% are pro choice. 99% are not the 1% super rich. Nearly 70% distrust/are disgusted with/hate bush. Over 80% think cheney is a swine. And on and on and on. The MSM has decided we are a divided nation. They like it that way but it is only a small, well financed minority, that is in disagreement with the majority.
I think the biggest reason for obama’s success has been the failure of Congress to act on the war.
Im just glad that Edwards pledges to stay in the race to the end. So much can happen. Obama seems better than Hillary and hope and unity are needed, but he seems pretty but empty to me.
181,976 people have signed Congressman Wexlers petition to impeach Cheney.
Have you signed?
Yes, I just finished the book a few weeks ago, and I agree that the rapid changes in the polls this week appear to be straight out of the book. Another point I would make is that the participation of so many new young people is very interesting. I hold out the hope that they will remain interested and work to make him follow through on the overly broad call for change with concrete action to actually change the course this country is on. (That is also why I would like Edwards there, telling him how to do it.)
Good point. The strong majority of the country is united and perhaps Obama is tapping that. Edwards may be seen as saying, “we’re the underdogs and the powerful are arrayed against us, so we have to fight back,” which is a very different message.
It is not a fuc**ng war! A war means fighting an enemy. Iraq was not an enemy of America, was not a threat to America had no intention of waging a war against America. What we have here is an illegal invasion of a sovereign country for the pleasure of a few oiligarcs. The has been NO decalred war since the second world war.
I think Booman captures Obama very well;
http://www.boomantribune.com/s…..34628/4245
BREAKING: CNN reports a near incident between Iran and US naval forces, in which Pentagon is saying Iranians sent threatening radio messages.
Interesting timing. A gift for McCain?
I think the biggest reason for obama’s success has been the failure ofCongress to act on stopping on illegal invasion of Eyerack
http://impeachmenthearingsnow.blogspot.com/
By saying that he will unite the country? What he really means is that he will strive to move the center even farther to the right, will kiss the ass of big bidness, and hold lieberman’s dic* when he pees.
Wow. What can you say to that.
Saying Obama is on the level of Britney.
Don’t know how to respond to that rhetoric….WOW!
Are they hoping/projecting when they “believe” in Obama? I think so. His message of hope is powerful, if you don’t dig into what that really means for him. Who can knock hope? I guess I do since I prefer Edwards. And see, that’s the problem. If you don’t jump on the Obama bandwagon, then you’re against hope, change, youth, people of color. Implied, not stated, but strongly in play.
I am sure fatuous militarist and msgop asshole Jack Jacobs will suggest the radio man should have committed suicide rather then take the message
maybe voters who like obama like that he’s only half black. then they get to vote against racism halfway. i think he’s a big conscience assuager for the country. country wants to forget about how many black men it’s imprisoning so it can feel safe from their righteous rage. Obama perfect foil for that shame.
Googled the Take Back American 2008 and this was the second site on the search list; Note the gal on left in t-shirt provocatively egging on t shirt buyers . just for laughs
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n…..E_ID=59468
I heard about a March in DC ides of March the 15th. Anybody know anything? I’ll check with PeaceActionMaine
Thank you for pointing that out. Have always been leery of Obama, & Westley as CA campaign chair just adds to the unease.
Howie Klein’s take on Steve Westley DWT 5/24/06
that can’t be good…
‘morning, all… coffee is ready…
hope = wishful thinking
I’m going (if David’s cancer treatments allow for it). I’m registered.
Here’s the linky (hopefully — don’t know how to do those here any more.)
Just in case, cut and paste:
http://home.ourfuture.org/tba-2008.html
i listened to obama’s thursday night speech – and it made my skin crawl. he wasn’t leading, he wasn’t inspiring – he was hypnotizing, putting people into a trance. and not a good trance, because it seemed people lost their ability to think critically. scared the shit out of me… we better hope he has good intentions, because if he doesn’t – i think he could convince an awful lot of people to support some really bad stuff. sorta like bush has been able to do.
… but i just don’t get the attraction – it makes me want to run in the opposite direction.
it’s McCain folks
Yep. Little substance Obama. That’s how I’ve experienced his speeches.
He also gave most of that speech in the past. It was pretty good, as was Edwards. I had heard most of all their speeches anyway and look through them all with tinted glasses unless I really try to put myself in someone elses shoes/pretend I don’t know anything. Certainly a better way of talking than the slow-measured tone Clinton used in the last week in Iowa.
The reason I saw Obama surging after Iowa was because I know his young people are coming out and most are not going to parse fine or even course issues – he is the “cool” “Facebook” candidate and they are going to vote for him just as I would root for the Red Sox or a NYC would root for the Yankees. In addition his victory in Iowa will have a similar effect on Independents (and Dems registered as Indy). Edwards without the money does not have enough to get real differences in policy and direction down – so sadly (or perhaps not if you want to have someone other than Clinton) the election is distilled to “change” (and or “hope”) at this time.
Of course for Clinton she has no choice but to tailor her message to include the “change” component.
I saw the two debates, and the re-listend to the Dems on the radio yesterday and the Dem debate in my opinion was great. The Rs look ready to tank even harder. Watching the debate though and knowing most other people were not – and trying to listen hard enough to think if anyone watching would actually be swayed was difficult. I think they all made their cases well, Hillary had one very good moment where she saved a planned attack at good time – but Edwards and to some degreee Obama deflected well (open mic: “George Bush killed that bill” and “thats not true, thats not true”) – but more important from the Hillary point I think that is when she was speaking in a fired-up manner (They also deflected her other critisizms well, for example Obama saying “words matter”) – because while I will vote for Edwards I was happy to see all three doing well & think that Clinton does need to step something up to make it a better primary.
My own bias I happen to be rooting for both Obama and Edwards to come in ahead of Clinton because I do buy the change. I happen to want the trust busting of a hard working nose to the grind Edwards who can go to town with the law and win. Other reasons as well but a big part of it is our “rule of law” is dying (illegal immigration & hiring, rich sports stars on steriods, union busting, Corps letting 17 year old girls die to build profits, Constitution in the trash — this lets all the people who lie, cheat, and steal/crime get ahead of people who do not).
When was the last time that hope put bread on the table or gasoline in the tank?
to all the obama supporters – sorry if i offended, just calling it like i see it. but i should have included the disclaimer of: wtf do i know?
I think I will take a break from FDL for a while, I am mostly a lurker, but I find the (just below the surfac)e racism a little too much to take from some of you posters. All packaged around your rhetoric dissecting hope….WOW
…being the cool candidate is a great thing for Obama; and it does not mean he is not serious or the best. Just saying that peeling those voters is unlikely.
the political Joel Osteen
In the near future, some of you will have to eat your words. I’m not looking forward to witnessing that.
didn’t say he was on her level.
did I?
quoting someone hardly means that.
why the overreact?
just being funny here
jeez
I could be wrong, but I don’t think that is the way to fight racism.
I was thinking the same thing.
If I don’t like Hillary am I sexist?
seriously – not your responsibility to educate me. but if you catch me doing something you see as racist, i’d appreciate the heads up. i promise to take it seriously.
great
now you cannot critize Obama cuz that makes you a racist
what a load of crap
spoke with a couple of folks during coffee hour after the service. They like Obama because of what symbolically his election would show to the rest of the world.
Interesting take, but not enough for me.
Dissecting hope rhetoric isn’t racist. It’s the political bed that Obama chose & he’ll live or die by it. It’s our job to figure out what he means by it & how it will influence what he might do as a prez.
Which is exactly what I can’t figure out. What does hope have to do with the kind of prez he’ll be?
Yep, just what the goopers want us to do, vote PC. I will not vote PC, I will not vote for clinton just because she is a woman and I will not vote for Obama just because he is black. Would I vote for Magie Thatcher, not a hope. Would I vote for Idi Amin, not a hope.
ouch.
With Dodd out Obama is my second choice. Does that make me “sorta racist”?
If that’s what you think a public blog discussion of Dem candidates on this site amounts to, then please do take a break.
Before Dodd dropped out, Obama was my third choice… …does that mean I am less racist this week than I was last week?
As they say in the military, hope is not a plan.
selise, I have been reading your posts for a long time now, and I know you take everything seriously and personally. But you would be the LAST person on this blog(next to Jane and Christy) to ever accuse of anything under the surface, no less racism.
You support Dodd because he has white hair?
I intend to attend an Osteen service when I’m in Houston this coming summer, to see for myself what all the fuss is about.
OT – Breaking on CNN.com
U.S. officials: 5 Iranian Revolutionary Guard boats harassed, provoked 3 U.S. Navy warships in the Strait of Hormuz on Saturday.
Gulf of Tonkin, anyone?
One thing I forgot in my partial ramblings that I had noted a few days ago:
Obama ad in NH includes motivational speech that is a good ad for him I think. It is the one where he belts out a few good lines that you can hear the emotion from across the room (cuz most people trying to tune out) and then goes into the calm part of the ad where it throws up quotes and endorsements to arrive at a good blend (make an impression or get people to look/listen and then quite to show endorsements).
As I noted tiny tiny thing with the add was including the Boston Globe as a NH newspaper which might annoy one or two people in NH (actually by saying correctly that its one of NH’s most respected papers…just not an actual NH paper though of course; its MA).
OT – some good news…. our friend hugh (of hugh’s list) is scheduled to be on the radio with jeff farias this evening (6pm EST). and i think we’ll be able to listen in via webstream.
I am so busted.
Caught.
Found out.
I must respectfully call that macaca. Perhaps you have some linkies to support your accusation of racism. But, if you need some examples of racism, research the “Voter Caging”. This is being done by Loyal Bushies all over this country.
NOT, what I said…
You can criticize Obama all you want, I do, he is FAR from perfect. Being gay, I am very aware of the subtle aspects of bigotry, it is how I get thru life. So maybe I am more sensitive.
McCain anyone?
Woo Hoo!!
In NH we only get offended when the Union Leader is called a newspaper!
I know. Hope and 4 bucks will buy you a Caribou Coffee. (sigh)
Thank, I am well awre of voter caging, I live in Florida
Thanks for that link! I’ve been making those points as well, but haven’t found many others in the Netroots who agree. Might have to start reading Booman more.
do you think you are the only gay person in Ameica
Wow. Judging from the the misreporting of the recent incident where an Iraqi soldier fired on US troops with whom he was on patrol (what the US media neglected to report was that the US troops in question may have been kicking a pregnant woman for no apparent reason), I have a feeling that we’re not being told the whole story here, either.
Jon Swift had a good take on the Obama/racism angle…
i’d be a liar to say i was free of racism (or sexism) – don’t know how anyone growing up and living in the usa can say that, it’s so pervasive in our culture. and it doesn’t have to be a criticism to point out someone might be blind to some parts of it. it’s life-long project in my opinion.
You know what an ADULT response, after reading your posts, I expect that!
This is what Scarecrow said about it @ 57
to which I add, “How convenient!”
These polls almost certainly reflect asking more Republicans than Democrats and independents. Gallup usually does it that way, asserting that more Republicans than Democrats voted in the last two presidential elections even though that’s not true. What we are seeing from that cohort then is who the Republicans think should be the Democratic candidate. The MSM has consistently afforded us coverage that says it’s got to be Clinton or Obama. I think they both stink – Republicrats who keep funding the very bipartisan war while ignoring the domestic fight on a ton of important issues ranging from health care to labor and the environment. I hate the way the MSM can have such a deleterious impact on the national psyche. Fascinating in a sick making way that NBC never even mentioned Edwards in the post debate coverage. If he’s who the MSM masters are most afraid of, well, he’s got a way to go before I’m voting for him.
I’ve had an email from ANSWER about it, but the last time I checked, they didn’t have any info posted about it. I plan to be there. September 15 was a wonderful experience.
I think a lot of us are responding favorably to the “hope” message, wanting to believe in it; I wrote about it Saturday nite. There are supporters of other candidates here, drawn to the anti-corparate themes of Edwards or the competence message from Clinton. If you see subtle racism there, I’d like to understand where.
Booman really captures it. The reason I posted it, is because sometimes we fail (myself included) to look at ALL the reasons for someones actions!
As would all thinking people!!
Re: Obama & racism. If he’s the D candidate, just whatch the Rs shovel it out. You ain’t seen nothing yet.
oh puleeze you just called everyone here a racist if they critized Obama and then said youhad special incite because you are gay
and you are jumping on me
p.s. thanks for kind response and encouragement. and just for future reference, the invitation to educate is an open one.
Check out Greenwald’s post from Saturday about this and the over 900 comments that followed.
I agree, and a great point. What I have found being a white gay male, has been the level of below the surface racism is alive and well in every community. AND….look at the 2004 election…25%…yes 25% of white gay men voted for the chimp. My subset of the progressive community has much work!
Is this connected to TBA Conference or something else? Any info ro site for the march itself? thanks, jim
To an extent, the situation reminds me of the 1960 Democratic convention in which John Kennedy, Lyndon Johnson, Hubert Humphrey, and Adlai Stevenson competed. I was in high school, but came from a very politically interested family and I followed everything closely. Of course it was a convention, not a primary, with Kennedy money, machine politics, etc. involved. However, there was general amazement that the inexperienced Kennedy could beat Lyndon Johnson. Kennedy turned out to be an exceptional orator, and like Obama, was more on expressing inspiring generalities than specifics.
Unfortunately, the next politician to inspire young people was Ronald Reagan, who taught them that greed and self interest were in the public interest. They still make up a portion of the 27 percenters.
Obama wasn’t my candidate, but if Iowa was representative,and he can inspire a new generation of young people to be more interested in the common good than self interest,and in politics than celebrities, I’m for it.
One last thing on the Obama speech. I gave them all a pass on policy for the post Iowa speeches, though I was keeping my ear out for it. The reason being having to pump up or thank supporters, and the limited time they had. But said that they need to get specific quick (especially Obama).
I think Edwards brought it home with people’s stories and identifying the greatest needs, I was not a big fan of Hillary’s speech so did not think her (literally) bullet listing a few issues was a great idea (especially with Edwards stories and Obamas motivating). Obama I am pretty sure did not put fourth any central idea beyond hope & sitting at a table with Ds and Rs. I would need to read the speeches in text – but as I said most of that was a 5 minute chance to talk to their supporters and people very into politics (was giving Obama a 11:10 start time cap ET since I was getting tired and lucky he just made it starting at about 11:05).
All that being said I wish they had all snuck in a bit more policy and “how”.
Things need to change and it is hard to see change if there’s just another link in the Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton chain.
Sorry if you think I said everyone, if that is what came across, it was not my intention. That being said…I am moving on from this back and forth with you.
Have a good day!
If you read throught the Wendel post, you’ll see he argues that the style of leadership he sees in Obama’s speeches is not empty; it’s a valid quality we need in a President — the ability to move the country from the bully pulpit. So he’s not criticizing Obama, nor am I. And if you read through the comments on his post, he also notes he’s not a partisan for Obama or any of the candidates. He’s trying to explain a phenomenon.
And in Clinton’s case she had to thank her supporters for all their hard work even after having lost. And be nice, stay on target, not Dean scream, all that stuff.
Hope the media learns how to ask a follow-up question as well as not just sit around waiting for someone to make a mistake (real or imagined).
FDR — ‘chicken in every pot’ Bold policies to back up the rhetoric. People want to be inspired — Obama presents that chance. Does he have the bold policies to back up the rhetoric?
The key thing about being a leader is that you have to have people to follow you. Lots of people are eager to follow Obama, they think his vision of the future is a good one, and these speeches reinforce that feeling. It certainly helps that the people at the speeches are very enthusiastic, as evidenced by the roars of approval.
The things that make me support Edwards and HRC are more cerebral, Edwards sets out goals I support, and HRC is strong and competent, and I hope she will be the candidate to root out the apparatchiks this administration will leave behind and make sure that everyone knows who did all these awful things. But these things are hard to put into a vision speech, the kind of speech that has people rising up and cheering in huge waves.
kitty, here is all that I can find right now. I don’t see a connecion to the TBA conference, but I could be wrong.
http://www.labornet.org/news/0000/fifthan.htm
Strangely, the main ANSWER website doesn’t mention March 15 yet.
i’m a bit frustrated… none of us know why gaiilonfong thought our conversation had a racist undertone. before we all jump on gaiilonfong to defend ourselves, maybe we could ask for more information? kinda like scarecrow did? doesn’t hurt to ask before jumping all over someone.
wonder what david brock would say about that
I think I understand that this is about style. I’m just saying that Obama’s style leaves me cold. But then, I’ve always been out of the mainstream.
thanks jim
Back when we were kids we called it “The Vision Thing.” Bush the first didn’t have it.
Also, one of the reasons Barak is doing so well is because he is an ‘orator” in the traditional sense. Clinton and Edwards lack this quality and it’s a huge disadvantage.
Take a moment and listen to the silences between his words, where he verbally puts his commas, and the technical construct of his sentences, without focusing on the actual words. Such skill has not been seen in politics in a very long time.
Avalanche blasting has started (they use WWII howitzers, I’m told), to make skiing & the road safe from the 14″ that fell yesterday. Off to stretch class. Catch up with you later.
I’m not getting into who might be a better candidate, because everyone here either is keeping an open mind or already has their favorite and everyone thinks they are right, which I actually find rather endearing, and we all agree for the most part that any Dem candidate would be better than the alternatives. That being said, I just want to make a comment about what has been described here.
In behavioral medicine, positive affirmations are frequently used to direct a subject to adjust his or her thinking. People have made a lot of jokes about techniques like that over the years, “I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and gosh darn it, people like me!” But if properly used it can be a highly powerful tool for transformation. The Cheney/Bush folks kept repeating lies until people actually believed them, an excellent example of one of those lies that brainwashed folks is that Saddam was behind 9-11. So we know the technique can work even with lies. What if someone started using it for good instead of evil? What if every time Obama makes these statements, he is actually healing those around him of the hate and divisiveness and suspicion that KKKarl and his ratfuckery have created for the past eight years? What if by repeating positive affirmations over and over and taking the crowd with him he is actually creating the future we all want?
If the intentions of this person are pure, would that be a bad thing? Really?
In the 12 step community, we call it “Faking it until you make it.” Wiccans talk about transformative magic or wish fulfillment magic, which for the most part is the only kind of magic people do, and shrinks talk about how you have to change your mind before you can change anything else. I think all are speaking to the power of the mind and when you multiply that by hundreds and thousands of people that power can be multiplied, the whole having more power than each individual voice. The Force, from Star Wars, if you like. And yeah, I really believe in the transformative power of the mind.
It is no wonder Obama’s message is having an effect. It is also no wonder that the reaction of the unwashed masses to it is making some thoughtful people who actually agree with the substance of the message awfully damn nervous. People have compared him to JFK and I really see that, but there have been other charismatic speakers who have had that “rock star” appeal who haven’t used that power for good. Adolf Hitler comes to mind, but there have been many over the history of man. The big question is, what is in this guy’s soul? If he wins the nomination, the answer to that question is going to be a very important one. Only fools put all their eggs in one basket without some kind of misgiving.
That’s a perfect example of what Wendel is suggesting — the rhetoric of unity actually creating unity, by your willingness to join notwithstanding where you started.
Crosstimbers, sounds like you’re from “my” generation. [I too was in high school when Kennedy was elected, and a soph in college when he was shot.]
I wish there were more awareness of what a complete, vile disaster Reagan was for this country. You’ve hit the nail precisely on the head in identifying his justification, and then glorification, of greed and the “I’ve got [or am getting] mine; get the f*** out of my way” mentality that has pervaded the country ever since.
Reagan gave us the philosophy, the illegal wars [does ANYONE remember Iran-Contra?] and the list of participants who’ve come back from the we-wish-they-were-dead to screw this country anew.
It also makes me sick to see the praise heaped on “Charlie Wilson’s War” — really just Chapter Two of Iran-Contra. The woman at the center of it was interviewed reverently on CBS’ Sunday Morning yesterday. They should know better.
This also is largely why Huckabee is doing so well – different style, and with a big hitch from the evangels, but he is a southern preacher who knows how to preach. By the way, I bet Obama had debate experience in high school. That trains one to strategize quickly on one’s feet, and how important it is to know (and be able to argue) both sides of a case (basically coming to grips with the relative merits of each). It gives him a huge advantage in TV interviews as well, and allows him to seemingly “give to” (embrace) the other side, which is disconcerting to them, while not letting go of his own points (and indeed, winning the issue at hand).
Our military-industrial-media complex at work. I don’t understand how any of the Iran-Contra players got security clearances after what they did. Even if the public was oblivious, members of congress should have longer memories! It just adds to my ‘throw the bums out’ attitude.
i don’t see any reason to think the intentions are pure.
If he really had debate training early on, it hasn’t shown in the actual debates. Frankly I have been surprised at how weak he has been in the interminable debates.
Where he excels is as an orator or preacher, take your pick. The others aren’t as good in that format.
Yes. I was a junior in college when Kennedy was killed. I was 40 miles away, and had stopped in the Student Union to hear his earlier speech in Fort Worth. I had really felt young Americans could help to make this a better world for everyone. The even was at least as traumatic, for a lot of people, as 9/11 was.
I also think, on a deeper level (and others will surely be addressing this soon enough) that his parents separation played a role in who he is. At base there seems to be a desire to bring the two (and also all whites and blacks, women in men, long time residents and newer arrivals) together. In some ways it is a rather typical “child of divorced parents” response. But I think that in the same way that Edwards speaks of “deep ingrained passion” for righting the wrongs of his parents generation, this IS Obama’s deeper issue. And, as with Edwards’ position it is one that this nation is greatly in need of.
I think people are reading things into Obama’s victory that are not there.
It sounds from reports on the ground, that Clinton’s campaign has made …campaign errors. Why didn’t they hire the guy who ran Kerry’s ground campaign in Iowa. he was Vilsak’s chief of staff, I’msure they could have..but Obama hired him because the Clinton’s didn’t.
And apparently the same is true in NH.
Well, we’re all different, and we respond to different things. If you’re the type who likes to delve into the details of positions and pursue whether they logically hang together, then a rhetorical appeal is not going to sound convincing. And economists are a tough lot to convince. :)
Good point. However formal H.S. debates are quite different than political debates in many ways. There are only two people debating, usually, and a judge. No one else is in the room. And, while “style” definitely does matter, the points are made by addressing and winning specific points in an argument. Being emotional doesn’t help except in so far as you try to knock your opponent off base. The type of comment Obama made to Hillary (you are nice…. enough) or something like that is typical.
On the other hand, the sort of one on one in debate is very much like what happens in a TV interview.
Sorry, I had meant 147 in response to your comment.
For the life of me, I can’t understand why Clinton isn’t adapting. It should be very easy to deliver an inspiring message. Here’s some suggestions for her:
A Democrat in the White House *is* change. The current crew is nothing like a status quo. They are radicals. Competence and good government in the White House isn’t the status quo. It’s just a damn good idea.
Yes, I’m down now. The whole country is down now. Our reputation has been destroyed. I know what that’s like. But we can’t just hope things will get better. We have to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and start over again.
Anyone can talk the talk. We’ve had cocky George Bush in the White House for 8 years. What do they say about him in Texas? All hat and no cattle? Do we want to put another inexperienced, charismatic figure in the White House or do we want to say, “Thanks, George, but you’ve done enough, *I’ll* take it from here.”
It’s hard to tell the family that is losing their house or losing a job or losing their health insurance to just hope. It’s hard to tell our states that are deep in debt and cutting back on services to use words to make it happen. It’s hard to tell families whose sons and daughters are in a war zone to hold on while we learn on the job. I am not in the business of ecstasy and flights of fancy and mind over matter. I am here to lead us back to living in the real world, where we regain our self-respect, dignity and entrepreneurial spirit. I am rehab.
By the way the Irish bookies have already called the primary for Obama (google news). (So much for Irish bookies, one might say, but….).
I fully agree. Have you considered running?
Reagan’s history before he became Ca Gov points to all you have described. My Dad, a lifelong Republican of the Eisenhower variety who managed to raise all Democrats taking after our Mom, said of Ronnie & George Murphy before him, ” Don’t ever vote for an actor, kids, the problem is, they’re always acting”:
Reagan’s Amnesia Before a Federal Grand Jury
Also, here’s a much-read & passed around (among local union folks) expose by Dan Moldea :
Dark Victory: Ronald Reagan, MCA, & the Mob
i read Jesse’s post last night over at group news blog, his analysis of the candidates speech patterns is very interesting. Thanks, Scarecrow, for giving it some attention.
The main problem with Hillary, is also a key problem with many in Congess and Washington, i.e. they are so used to talking with “yes” men and fawning people on their staffs that they forget that there are other perspectives and voices, and so they forget how to effectively engage with them. It is what one also calls in the academy “the ivory tower” effect. Hence, Hillary, seems like a car wheel stuck in the infamously nasty New England early spring mud. The more she spins her wheels, the more frustrated she gets, and the deeper she sinks. Ditto, to some degree Edwards. My sense with Obama (and Huckabee) is that they use their staffs in very different ways. (And, for what it is worth, good friends I know who are very close to Obama and his campaign, i.e. cell phone close) suggst that he has one the TIGHTEST organizations from the vantage of being on point, on target, doing what is strategic in terms of meets. Lots of this probably comes from Obama’s early experiences in Chicago, but I bet Michele is key to this too.
Thanks for that link to Booman. Another good perspective worth reading.
Well, my parents shocked the hell out of me this weekend…they’ve come out for Obama. My father (retired Army officer) always votes Rethug so this is pretty amazing.
You should probably replace Mark Penn.
And also a reply to selise’s reply to Maretta @ 145:
Maretta is on the right track. I also agree with her analysis and it is very similar to what I wanted to post.
First all, replying to selise: No one’s intentions are ever 100% pure. Especially in politics. We simply aren’t going to find the Dalai Lama or an equivalent, a near totally selfless individual.
But we sure do need an inspirational individual at this perilous time. With all the dangers that are attendant to that.
As Maretta said, in therapy there is a great deal of motivating people. We often can see potentials our clients/patients can’t see. And we are, in some ways, powerfully suggesting to them that they can access their strengths. On the other hand, exercising this type of power can be dangerous if we do it for unscrupulous ends. There must be a great deal of self-restraint and selflessness involved, in spite of the fact that no one is totally selfless.
At this perilous time in our nation’s history, I am convinced we need the type of leader who can inspire, who can see what people have lost touch with, and inspire them to sacrifice again, inspire them to make the necessary changes which our society needs to do, to get back to the Rule of Law, Balance of Powers, etc.
I honestly think we must have the type of inspirational leader who can speak to people and move them to work for a better nation, a more selfless nation, a less bullying nation, a nation where we care for all our people.
That being said, once we find that person, we must hold their feet to the fire and scrutinize them with all we’ve got… to keep them as focussed and selflessly working for the social good of all us as we possibly can.
I don’t know for sure if Barak Obama can be that person. But I don’t think Hillary Clinton can ever inspire. Edwards can. And honestly I’d like to see Obama and Edwards together. In order to get healthcare for all, to restore the rule of law we need a combination of inspiring speech and fighting the oligarchy.
Obama speaks to the voter rather than about himself. Tells the voter what he or she can be. What all of us can be. Dean did that: You have the power. This is the kind of language that moves people. I’ve been watching and thinking about this for some time.
Others could try and latch onto it. But not everyone has this magic ability. Which is fraught with danger – but a necessary ingredient if we are truly to change this country.
This says it all, I think. And, the armed forces are one of the places where the issue of race has been addressed in ways that make us proud.
Not that he’s relevant, but Imus crew called out Richardson as the hypocritical hippo for calling himself the green candidate while authorizing oil well digging in NM. [Richardson = not relevant. Imus, back in the game, for reasons like my earlier comment about Richard M. Cohen and his book, Strong at the Broken Places.
I know a few GOPers who have expressed interest in Obama. It is a strange phenomenon, and they could change their minds once the GOP attack machine revs up… …but they ARE liking Obama right now.
More than I do in fact, which seems really strange…
A gift to the oil companies. Oil prices were sliding on the lackluster Job News. They have to keep that artificially high priced Oil coming into the coffers.
Not every drilling is bad
and why would you take the world of someone who supports Major Kong for president
Did you all see the breaking news.
They are determined to create another war.
If you start with the link to Booman, there’s an answer. If I’m reading him correctly, Booman at one point suggests that some of the criticism of the Obama surge is disguised racism — as in trying to explain the surge away as something resulting from, e.g., a rhetorical trick as opposed to a genuine Obama merit. I don’t think Wendel is making that argument, because he sees a genuine leadership quality in the message and how it’s delivered.
Headline at Reuters (no link yet): U.S. captain was in process of giving order to fire in incident when Iranian ships moved away: Pentagon 9:28am ET
ok, skip the pure part (i was just replying to the words used to show that it was, at least in part, wishful thinking).
do you think obama has good intentions? do you think he cares about things like habeas corpus and torture?
and if you do, how do you explain the speech he gave from the senate floor before the vote on the MCA? senator clinton was a hell of a lot more passionate about those foundational principles than obama was.
i don’t object to inspiring people – i think that’s can be great thing. but not if it is without substance or principle, and that it what i’m trying to figure out.
Interesting that an anonymous GOP consultant is now claiming that Obama is the one the GOP fears the most. I smell Rovian tactics here.
and to give it even more attention, digg this post
I think this comment is to much “LAWDY HEP” for kind discourse.
Absolutely! And, the NYT latest? neocon reporter (Isabel Kershner) focuses on Iranian missiles getting into Palestinian hands. (And what about Isr*eli weapons in Congo and everywhere else?). Now that William “the Bloody” Crystol is writing op ed pieces for the NYTimes (that makes 3 Neocon voices -Bobo Brooks, 6-months Friedman, and Crystol) who are struggling to get this war message out there.
Unpopular president, hateful vice-president, despised war, hey I know! Let’s start another war! Bastards.
Now up on Drudge (I know, I know…)
TALK OF HILLARY EXIT ENGULFS CAMPAIGN
Can someone tell me what the reasons are behind John Edwards being the invisible man in the MSM? The NYT doesn’t ever say anything about his candidacy.
Ben
It’s kind of like the tax cuts. Too much peace, start a war. Too much war, start a war. It’s all they know.
Yes, absolutely. Leadership is not saying over and over “I am a leader.” Leadership, in my view, arises. It is a relationship. It comes about between people. Not top down. Word of mouth. Back and forth at moments. And Thursday was a moment of leadership… a moment between Barak and people.
The magic doesn’t always happen. But it doesn’t need to happen at every moment. Think about a love relationship. Something begins in “magic” – and I’m not talking “voodoo” here… but something intangible, undefinable, but you “feel it” sometimes.
Once that relationship gets going… it can continue in quiet ways.
Out the door to work now. Friends & neighbors are continuing to suffer in the WGA/Producers standoff. Back to the table soon, people, this is after all a company town is which so many local businesses & local economy in general need the income from film/tv product.
Read you all later.
Berkeley preacher calls for blacks to fight abortion
Leslie Fulbright, Chronicle Staff Writer
Monday, January 7, 2008
Saying they are faced with a civil rights crisis that demands immediate attention, African American anti-abortion advocates will hold three events in the Bay Area later this month in an aggressive push to combat the high number of abortions among black women.
“The abortion issue is huge. It is the Darfur of America,” and it’s time to educate the public about it, said Walter Hoye, a Berkeley preacher who founded the Issues4Life Foundation, a recently formed Union City-based organization intent on drafting more African Americans into the fight against abortion
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/…..#038;tsp=1
They are literally scared to death of him.
I find myself wishing the Democrats could have a Bush/Cheney division of power. Obama would make the speeches, hold the press conferences, possibly plan the overall approach. Clinton would run the government.
Note too, Crystol’s point/threat in his first column, if Huckabee gets the Republican nod, Bloomberg will be sent in as a third candidate, whose presence will likely hurt the Dems (Obama) more than the rethugs. The neocons are clearly at their wits end to keep the flames of war fanned in the M.E., and Iran is part of this. By the way, while not much is said about it, this is as great a threat to the neocons for the Huckabee candidacy as his anti-corporate stance is for the corporate folks.
QED. Big bidness dreads the thought of Edwards
Selise, you are asking good questions. I simply don’t know the answer. But at this point I’m not sure it comes down to “issues” pure and simple. We need to get a Dem elected. Ideally by huge margins. Then we need to hold their feet to the fire.
I would love, more than anything in this world, for there to be a day long, if necessary, seminar where the top 3 Dems could be questioned about the Constitution. Yes, I too need to know what are the first principles. That’s what annoyed me so much about Sat’s debate. I’m furious with charlie gibson actually. He gave the repubs a chance to talk about first principles, but didn’t ask the Dems to do that, nor even give them much time to debate each other.
So your question stands.
But the truth is that you and I are concerned about issues, but to move the country forward we need to have someone to inspire everyone to sacrifice for those important ideals.
Have any of you been reading the Sibel Edmunds stuff? She has finally come out in the UK with a story that seems real. Many folks agreeing.
It is everywhere this morning.But starts here. This is one of those stories I have trouble getting my head around.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..137695.ece
Replace Clinton with Edwards, and I’m on board.
TheraP
Thanks, for your response. The one terse comment from Selise, for whom I have great respect, and the sound of crickets had nearly convinced me I should have kept my opinions to myself. I am a deeply thoughtful person. I tend toward over-thinking things rather than being impulsive. I really am getting a bit angry when so many people keep saying or insinuating that only sheep and morons would vote for Obama. I have a lot of respect for the opinions of those who support Edwards as their first choice and I hope I have never made any comment to make them feel like their first choice brands them as a thoughtless lemming jumping over the cliff with a bunch of other thoughtless lemmings. Right now I plan to vote for Obama, but I am a critical thinker and I am no longer capable of blind, misguided trust. For the record, I don’t think we can trust any of them completely. I just happen to think Obama is less likely to screw us over than the other two when the choice comes. That is my best guess. I may well be wrong, but that doesn’t make me stupid or easily led.
With Clinton running things it would be more vitriol more of the time. Plus her response during the debate to create a new czar (for ? I can’t remember) is exactly the wrong solution. We do not need more levels of administrators. That is a recipe for status quo.
Insurance companies would run the gummint.
Point taken: Outline policy and definitive plans, people don’t absorb; Talk with emotion and that unexplained charisma and people latch on; once you can get that kind of momentum, the masses follow. Kind of makes me negative on political campaigns when the least qualified person can win the prize, ie – Bush.
You’re right, of course, That *is* the question and why it is so dangerous to trust the politician who appeals to your emotions. I know that it can’t be helped but when people are in an emotional frenzy, even if it is uplifting, they ignore the substance of that message. And this is what I see happening to Obama supporters. They are in *love* with him. It is infatuation. He can do no wrong. So, they pay no attention to how it is that a one term senator with no record to speak of make himself out to be all things to all people. Who is he really? Is he a Democrat? Is he a bipartisan zombie? What is he? Who promoted him? Who does he owe? And how do we know he’s going to be any good?
I’m afraid the genie is out of the bottle. McCain is getting major fluffing from the media and the Republicans might not love him, but they will fall into line. Then all of the questions about Obama that haven’t been asked, are going to get serious attention, whether we like it or not and it may be too late to do anything about it.
Thanks to the Libby trial, we can see that this was probably deliberate leak from Cheney’s office. Notice that the article references the Iran Revolutionary Guard? Remember that the Kyl-Leiberman act declared the Iran Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization? This is Cheney fiercly beating the War Drums.
That’s where I am.
Obama (and all the other Dem candidates are NOT even close to Bush) so this is a bad analogy! Plus Obama’s history and views are readily out there on the web (and in his books). Many people still can read.
just heard Imus say his sidekick Karith is trying to get him to support Edwards on the Dem side…we’ll see what happens
Mr. Cbl is right they’re scared to death of Edwards. Here’s a great piece detailing the Edwards blackout. http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..142/431084
I read the Booman piece and he calls it sour grapes, but he also says that when people see Obama they like him more and more. If they “saw” Edwards I think they’d like him more and more, but unless you’re looking you won’t see the coverage. It sucks, but I am happy that Obama is inspiring the youth.
I heard him in Dubuque this summer and he was extremely knowledgeable about the economy, foreign policy and many other issues that he spoke on. Not so inspiring, but very warm one on one. He’s my number two after Edwards. I hope that Elizabeth is reading and follows some of the advice about the declaratory statements.
Second attempt to answer your question. Laying my own gut on the line here. I have have a good feeling about Obama. Sorry that it comes down to feeling. I think he’s sincere. I don’t think he’s a narcissist. Of course we have have healthy narcissism. And I think he has that. He’s not a needy individual, as bill clinton was.
So, am I prepared to bet on him? Yes. And I say that as person and I say it as a psychologist, though I have never met him in person.
Would I bet on Edwards? Yes.
Would I settle for Clinton? Yes.
But we need a “salesperson” to get things changed. And I don’t view Hillary as a salesperson.
In my book there are two types of sales people. One type is a narcissist. We don’t want that type! The other type genuinely wants to work with people in order to help them get what they need. That’s the type we want!
I’m looking at what Barak did at Harvard with the law review. If he can do that same thing with the country, then I’m in his corner.
Edwards if not VP then US AG.
Been there, done that. Had my stint on the schoolboard. Won by a landslide. It is not that hard to craft a message that will resonate with voters. I am truly puzzled by Clinton’s campaign. It’s adapt or die.
All I can think of is that a.) they thought that she was so good that her quality would speak for itself and b.) they played it too cautiously with messaging because they didn’t want to get blasted by the press. Yeah, well, the press is never going to like her so why not just go over their heads and let the voters decide whether her authentic appeal would have been enough.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
And Defense Companies. They have given more to Clinton than any of the Republicans. Granted, she is the chair of the Armed Services Committee. But, they do not give money without expecting something in return.
Maretta, I love you!
I’m totally in the same ballpark. Yes, I too think carefully. I evaluate people all the time. You and I work for change and know how hard that is.
Thanks for putting yourself “out there.” It strengthened what I wanted to say already. I can see we’ve both been waiting and watching and didn’t say much till now.
Honestly, in some ways, I hardly dare say much. Because god knows the mittster will try to mimic barak!
Bless you.
this is what i used to think. 2007 made me realize i was wrong (see congress). now i think we hold their feet to the fire, and then elect them (if they can pass the test).
and more important to me than any performance during a debate – is action. and on that both obama and clinton failed the test of the MCA. but obama’s failure was worse.
Goldberry,
Yes! Every person who supports any candidate tends to discount of doubt any reports that “their candidate” ever did something that was counter to what he or she actually says. It is human nature. That is why I keep saying any Dem candidate is such a big improvement we should not stoop to attacking one another when we all have so many of the same goals.
Oh, I completely agree with this statement. She is too deep in the weeds right now. She has to stop doing what she’s doing because it’s not working. In my line of work, we say “go up in the energy landscape, get out of your local minima”. Because sometimes you have to go up and start over before you can come down to a nice place. So, panic is not what is called for. No, now is the time to try something a little wild, a little random. And never underestimate the value of surprise.
We’ve all fallen in love. Yes, we can make mistakes with that. But falling in love is part of the relationship with a leader – or anyone.
Without that quality, the leader cannot get people to sacrifice. And that’s what’s needed, if we are to change our country.
We must be ready to critique the person. But we need them elected. We must get away from fascism…. which is where we’re headed now.
whoa – not saying your are wrong! just trying to see if you can convince me to see it your way, that’s why i’m questioning. i’ve said nothing about sheep. just that i don’t get the attraction.
There’s a new post, but Scarecrow really doesn’t mind if you stay and play on his lawn
You know, we have to be realistic here, selise. Edwards wasn’t in the Senate, so we don’t know what he would have done.
What are our choices then?
Mind you, I’d be very happy with Edwards! I’d like Edwards and Obama together!
Selise, some people get frightened by the quality Obama has. Others are totally swayed by it. But how do you think we’re going to get change in such a huge country? It will never happen by being intellectual. And having a logical discussion. Doesn’t work!
I agree. I think we need a lot of repair/restoration and even re-education, before we can have much “progress.” Resotration of the justice departmen (actually, much of the civil service has been contracted out), repair of our international image, restoration of an economy which holds some hope for a strong middle class economic mobility. But, somehow that is being portrayed successfully as a “past” that we just want to forget about.
ok then. but please understand that your gut feelings do nothing to convince me. not saying you shouldn’t pay attention to them, but please don’t be offended if i don’t
When 10 million sign then Congress might actually get off their ossified asses. 181,000 is just not enough.
i’m not arguing in favor of edwards here. i’m trying to understand the obama attraction – because i don’t get it.
Hey, you’re asking great questions!
I only told you how I feel – any vote is placing a bet.
Do I want them all to tell us in minute detail how they view the Constitution? Yes! Would they repair things? I want to know that.
You and I are not far apart here. I haven’t fallen under a “spell.” I have not committed totally to any candidate. I’m not thrilled with Hillary.
But I’m watching. I like Edwards. Love his wife!
So I hope you can see us as working together here. That’s how I feel. We are all working together for the good of our country. At times we may differ – and my gut feeling is not just that. I’m a psychologist. I’m used to evaluating people. But you asked me. So I told you.
I can’t convince you. I don’t see that as my job.
What part do you think the media played by creating Hillary as the one to beat? Their drums have been beating for months making it a race between Hillary and Obama. Could her seeming unpreparedness for defeat have anything to do with false confidence from believing a media that before has been largely full of animosity towards her?
What’s that saying? “Marry in hast, repent in leisure”? Ayayayay! Read Jude the Obscure for a good example of that.
Sure, you’ve got to love them but the love should be based not only on pretty words and faces but respect and admiration.
i don’t know how to say this any better.
i don’t object to inspiring people. i like it – alot! i understand how important it is.
my objection is that the inspiration doesn’t seem, to me, to be matched with inspiring goals. i don’t see anything behind the inspiring style.
i don’t want substance instead of style – i want substance and style.
Ok. Now I understand. Why is Obama moving people? That’s not an attack on your part. You’re simply trying to “get” that.
Ok. He speaks to the voter. He connects with the voter. Watch his language. You know how lately I’ve been talking a lot about language? Well, he’s got the lingo. But with him, it’s natural.
Watch how so many say, “I, I, I.” Not Obama. He says “You, you, you.” Or we. He tells people who they are or can be. He speaks about what they have done or can do.
Ok. Not just the language. But you know how musicians can connect with a crowd? he can do that!
It’s like inspiration. I’ve had that experience twice in my life. Speaking for a hospice… and when you have the inspiration inside yourself and you can speak in moving terms, slowly, with pregnant pauses, really looking people in the eye, that can sway them.
I’ll be glad to have this discussion back and forth to the degree I can.
But I can’t tell you for sure what kind of president obama would be. And I can’t convince you.
Many novels speak to that.
And with any candidate, you cannot be certain, nor can they, what kind of president they’d turn out to be.
No, I think the false preparedness has everything to do with what she values and their view of the situation. I truly believe that she thinks the country is in crisis and that she is the best person in the field to fix it. And she’s probably right. But the country is only just now starting to feel the pinch. Most people are hurting but they haven’t felt the full brunt of it yet. So, as an insider she is seeing something that the rest of the country doesn’t get yet. It’s not the era of Eisenhower. This is the era of Hoover. But you’ve got a dynamic and charismatic figure here and he is distracting from her message. So, now she has to go charismatic too. And I think she can do this but she has to shed this shell she’s built around her and let us see the Hillary underneath.
Think Gulf of Tonkin Incident.
Obama had so much substance when I saw him in Dubuque that it got boring. Don’t think that is what inspires the majority. Selise, have you researched his positions on his site?
I agree with you. But substance is hard to ’sell’ on a campaign trail. Hard to do. I’ve never campaigned. Couldn’t do it.
Someone talked about the poetry of campaigning and the prose of governing.
Honestly, I have a lot of problems with our country. I wonder if it’s too big. I wonder if a parliamentary system would work better. I wonder if we’re doomed and can’t pull back from the brink.
I don’t have the answers. But I’ve determined to vote for someone that I think has a conscience and then hold their feet to the fire. That’s the best I think I can hope for at the moment.
but it’s not a bet that’s based strictly on luck. at least if that old saying is true, “past action is the best predictor of future performance.” we’ve had a few years to evaluate their actions. do those actions live up to the pretty words we’re getting now? don’t you think that’s important to evaluate too?
and yes, i definitely agree that none of us know for sure who would be the best president. and quite frankly, i’m glad i don’t have to vote today – ‘cuz i’m not sure what i’d do. i might be leaning towards edwards, but his rhetoric doesn’t match his actions either. i’m that undecided.
I would love to see the Hillary underneath. I’m suddenly seeing the face of Michael Jackson in my mind and remembering his face underneath. Hearing that she was booed in NH and about the press bus freezing her out with silence when she brought bagels and coffee on Iowa caucus morning, I feel a compassion for her that I didn’t think I was capable of. I do believe she’s substantive, tried, but too into compromising and not enough of a progressive.
yeah, i don’t look for it there… i look for it in his day job – what substance do i see him bringing to being a senator?
… gotta run now, but just want to say thanks for the conversation. i still have lots of questions, but maybe i’m starting to see what attracts people to obama – even if i don’t share that attraction.
Selise, I’ve followed and respect your arguments,logic,and desire for evidence. I prefer Edwards to either Clinton or Obama, although I will enthusiastically support the nominee. But, it seems to me there is a fair amount of support for Edwards based on faith, rather than on his actions. I was fond of him from the beginning for throwing out the vile Loach Faircloth, but I viewed him as a moderate Democrat, and I believe he voted that way in the Senate. We are asked to accept his change of mind on the War Powers Act, but his view is now consistent with the Democratic base. Again, I support him, but his changes could be portrayed in the same way Mitt Romney’s are. Ultimately, my belief that any of the democrats will be a vast improvement is based on the fact they chose to call themselves Democrats and on faith.
I love you, selise, for this discussion!
When I say a bet, I don’t mean luck, though of course we can’t foresee events that are based on fate or whatever.
NO, what mean is that when you make a decision, based on the best way you can decide, you also know that you’re making a bet.
I’ve been married 40 years. It’s not easy. I’d call it an experiment. We are all wounded people. NO one’s perfect.
For me, at this point in my life and my career, I divide the world into two kinds of people. Those with a conscience and those without one.
Keep asking your questions. Not just here but anywhere. I don’t have the answers you’re looking for. I truly don’t. In some ways, Dodd above everyone convinced me the most!
The face under Michael Jackson? the guy has a multiple personality!
wrt to edwards – yeah, see my 227. i don’t think his actions in the senate matched the rhetoric we’re hearing from him now. but i don’t see anyone talking about inspiration and falling in love with his candidacy… so i don’t have the same questions about people who say they’ll vote for him.
really do gotta run… will check back here later in case anyone wants to leave a magnum opus.
thanks to all for a very interesting conversation. much appreciated.
My appreciation to selise, crosstimbers, and others.
We’re all on the side of trying to help our country and work together. That’s what matters.
A revision of my simplistic summary of Scarecrow’s/Wendel’s analysis.
Obama – I have a vision of our nation healed. Follow me.
Edwards – I want to provide fair and reasonable opportunity for working and middle class people. If we agree on the goals, then follow me, because I’m ready for the fight.
Clinton – Look at my resume. I have reasonable policies. I know what happens in the sausage factory of government. I can survive the campaign for the WH, and I can get the job done once I’m there. Let me be your leader.
No magnum opus coming from me. I too am flying by the seat of my pants, just trying to do my best to survive and work for the best.
Peace to all!
Her voting record demonstrates her progressiveness. But think how frustrating it must be for someone like her who came in with her husband with such high hopes only to be crushed by the Bill Kristols and the Newt Gingrich’s. They had to put much of it on ice. Now she’s sooooo close to getting the chance she’s been waiting years for and it’s being dashed by an upstart who may or may not be as progressive as she is. who may be even more of a compromiser.
I can’t assign a value to missing data points and that’s all I get with Obama. I KNOW where Clinton stands. She didn’t have to pander to me. Her positions on issues are mine. I see her as a responsible progressive. Not a compromiser.
But anyway, your mileage may vary.
Obama is not saying “I.” He is saying “you.” So his message is visionary but spoken directly to the people.
“Bill is subtly sabotaging her, unfortunately.”
….?
Hillary’s problem is she’s married to bill. Bill can connect with people. They make a team, yes. But he’s the better speaker. It comes from his neediness, his need to be adored.
Hillary would not have made it to where she is without bill. She didn’t do this herself. I have no doubt she is hard-working and wants to make things better. But I don’t see her as having charisma. She never will. She married charisma.
Yes, correct. Because he’s so needy. It’s unconscious.
Remember the funeral of coretta king? If that is recorded somewhere, go back to it. Bill connected with that crowd. He was inspiring. Hillarry, and it was spoken about at the time, looked so poor in comparison – as a speaker.
Ok… signing off here. Have to work a bit.
None of the Clintons have charisma unless you want to compare them to the Bushes or Gore or Kerry. Do you call it charismatic to claim you have a great economy based on fossil fuels?
I have heard this as well from Obama supporters and think it is a terrible way to go. We have enough to do to clean our own house that we don’t need to elect Obama to “send a positive message” to the world. A positivie message to us here at home, and perhaps for the rest of the world – our congress growing a set and doing their job (oath to people and Constitution).
Dead horse perhaps since there is a new thread, but the only other thing is that I think (hope?) Edwards has been enlightened – I am not sure the others have yet. All of them have been hardened. All of them are smart and are going to be able to drive much of what they want to do…so hope they say what they want to do (and for the most part its all going to be just words until 2009).
Ok. I’ll buy that, but it’s even more of a “you.” In my view. I’d say, even though it means we, that that he says “you have done this… they told us we could never done it…. we’re going to build a coalition… etc”
@ 243: I was never thrilled with bill. and I agree. but bill can connect better than hill. Not sure if it’s charisma. Not the same as barak.
semantics. But we’re looking at a phenomenon with barak. My 85 year old mother is comparing barak to FDR. Tells you something!
Oh look, I remember when Obama ran for Senate and the victory speech etc. It was rousing and I got excited and felt there was hope even though we were a one-party state at the time. When things got down to business in the senate, I was seriously disappointed. Since I’ve litanized from A-Z,( most lately not showing up for Dodd or to vote on Kyl/Lieberman,) I’ll try not to litanize anymore. The minute he became senator, he was never there for us and he promised to be. Instead he took up with the HoJoe wing of the party. I will never, never reward that kind of behavior again. As for being a “PC” voter. You are supposed to look at the record and the man and not the color of the skin. Barack Obama has said that New Orleans and Jena six arenot racial issues. So tell me why is Barack Obama running and not Cynthia Mckinney or Maxine Waters, because I would leap at the chance to support Maxine.
If Hillary doesn’t win the nomination, then Bloomberg hinted that he’d step in as an Independent. If I can’t have Hillary, then I’ll be voting for Bloomberg, as will a lot of other Democrats. That would probably split the party like Ross Perot did for George Bush Sr. And we all know what happened there.
One of the reasons that Obama as an agent of change doesn’t fly with me. Haven’t we had enough of an administration declaring it’s own reality? It doesn’t make it so. I seriously cannot understand the appeal of this guy.
From Black Agenda Reprt:
the declaratory style of speech is very biblical – God spoke and it was so. Part of the irony of the paradigm you’re articulating is that it is the evangelicals who are most attuned to this sensibility because of the faith/word language of the likes of Huckabee’s idiot TV teacher/promoter who still reigns in that world from the Fort Worth/Dallas metroplex area.
The conditionality of Edwards style reminds me of the Greek language conditionality of IF YOU FORGIVE OTHERS, GOD WILL FORGIVE YOU
Awww, don’t do that. A vote for Bloomberg is a vote for Republicans. Seriously.
You’re better off voting for the Democrat, no matter who he/she is.
What Obama really thinks of progressives and Free Market via Blck Agenda Report via his own book.
But there have been many books on the subject written on Hillary’s personality. From all accounts, she is much more approachable than her public persona would seem. The thing is that Bill is a gregarious extrovert. Hillary is more guarded.
Now, think back to the first time you would have heard about Hillary. It was during the Teas and Cookies remark kerfuffle for me. The clip showed her relaxed and affable just talking off the cuff and you know what? I would completely identify with the at remark. I can’t identily with Laura Bush. She’s a complete non-person. What has she ever done besides given birth to twins? Can anyone think of her special interest? With Betty Ford it was breast cancer awareness, with Nancy Reagan, the war on drugs, with Lady Bird Johnson, environmentalism, with Hillary it was healthcare and children’s health. With Laura Bush? Er, reading and literacy, right? But when was the last time she made any kind of news about it?
But the stay at homes and housewives were up in arms over Hillary’s Tea and Cookies remark. And after that, she couldn’t say anything off the cuff without being nailed on it. So, she became cautious and scripted. Now is the time to go back to the Tea and Cookies mindset and just say anything that comes to mind. Because she has a fine mind and should be confident enough to know that she’s not going to screw it up.
Ouch that connection really zings, but it’s appropriate. Not having ready anyone’s web sites, I’m not really informed about actual positions of any of them, but I’m concered about the ambiguity of Obama. On the one hand, I can appreciate Hillary’s demands that Obama’s and Edward’s pronouncements really be vetted. But I also suspect that she can’t stand up to a serious vetting of her own realities. I’m turned off and saddened by her attacks, by all their attacks.
Some are going to do exactly that and that is because some, and I stress some of the Obamaramas are hostile, condescending, dismissive twits. I asked one college age one this weekend for more info on his health care plans and was told I was a racist. This is from a nitwit who two hours earlier asked for character references from me for job hunting after graduation. I am not sure what to think.
just stopping by for a moment while my laptop reboots… but that could explain a lot about why obama creeps me out… a subconscious reminder of the fundamentalist church of my youth and evil of accepting what is told to me on faith – which i didn’t not question and ultimately reject until i was in my twenties. questioning the substance behind the inspiring rhetoric is, for me, a survival technique. and any one (or any movement) that asks me too (even if not explicitly) is one i view with a great deal of skepticism.
Obama addressed this in the last debate. Words and speeches inspire people to act. Very important part of the equation.
This thing about not knowing the kind of things he’ll do when in office can be applied to anyone! Edwards’ words today don’t reflect many of his past actions. Clinton’s actions are all over the map compared to what she talks about.
Looking at Obama’s life history, and his ACTIONS as an adult, both in politics and out, it seems fairly safe to say he’s a fairly Liberal guy. The fact that he’s even in this position in the first place says a lot about his abilities to act and his decision-making skills! It sure seems to be forgotten a lot around the Netroots how momentous it is that we’re even talking about him in this position.
Given many of the things I’ve heard Obama say, I think he understands quite well that he’s able to be in this position because of the blood and sweat of all those before him that fought before him. I don’t think he’s going to waste this incredible opportunity if he gets it to make them all proud.
How about this…you were talking to an asshole that supposedly likes Obama? Jerks-they’re everywhere!
I’ve been seeing this storyline quite bit recently. I wonder if Clinton’s pulling some of the Lieberme tricks of having people pose as Obama supporters and be as rude as possible. He actually did this while running against Ned Lamont.
Obama/bloomberg=my ticket=potential 16 years without the Clintons and Bushes=someone competent runs against Clinton and Schumer in New York and the Clintons go to work for a hedge fund.
sorry, i don’t see it. but then, i’m particularly looking at his actions in the senate. if you can give me (or point me to) an analysis of time in the senate that supports your conclusion, i’d like to read it.
Our ability to question and parse every word and action, then mobilize a response through the New Media, is a big reason that I’m feeling more comfortable with Obama. He won’t be able to get away with the same shit the Clintons and all the other DLCers did throughout the 1990s.
Especially since Obama has a plan to create a Chief Technology Officer and make the government more transparent than ever in its history. Can’t understand why the Netroots hasn’t cheered this plan more. I suppose many will say it’s just talk, again ignoring their own favorite candidate’s plans are often just talk as well. Oh well.
http://venturebeat.com/2007/11…..y-officer/
Selise if you haven’t read Paul Street’s analysis of Barack Obama’s in which Obama pays tribute to free market, American exceptionalism and really disturbing criticism of progressives like the late Wellstone”gadfly” and the like, you really should.
We FDLers should not let so-called PC-ism shut down our debate of the really serious flaws of candidates like Hillary and Obama.
Shell-voting. Wait until the last minute, or don’t show up and cast a vote for Feingold/Dodd type legislation when you’re pretty it’s not going to go through. That is a technique Lieberman perfected before becoming openly Republikan. Hillary’s vote for Kyl/Lieberman was disgusting, but at least she showed her hand. I can’t say the same for Barack Obama.
Yeah, maybe it’s not about him at all. Look, the polls in Iowa had him 3rd in a very tight race just a couple of days before the caucuses. Something happened very quickly. Either the polling done before that had failed badly and just didn’t pick up the new people who ended up voting for him or something else (and probably very bad) happened.
Wendel said, “Every time Obama opens his mouth, that future is more and more real. It happens AS he speaks. Obama’s speaking makes it so.”
It sounds a lot like the Bush family idea of creating the future. It’s Bushwa.
Maybe I’m only a cynic, but after several stolen elections and several dead senators and other weird things I’m ready to consider the possibility that criminal behavior occurred.
http://www.desmoinesregister.c…../-1/NEWS04
David Yepsen of the Des Moines Register wrote,
“Party officials say it is easy to register as an Iowa voter and participate at a caucus.”
and
“On the Democratic side, officials say no identification is required to register and vote in their caucuses.”
and
“His campaign offers that advice in a brochure being distributed on college campuses in the state. A spokesman said 50,000 of the fliers are being distributed. It says: “If you are not from Iowa, you can come back for the Iowa caucus and caucus in your college neighborhood.”
Given that many students in Iowa’s colleges and universities are from Obama’s neighboring home state of Illinois, the effort could net him lots of additional votes on caucus night. It’s all quite legal, and other campaigns are signing up nonresident Iowa college students, too. But Obama’s effort is unprecedented. No presidential campaign in memory has ever made such a large, open attempt to encourage students from another state to participate in Iowa’s caucuses.”
All legal!
So, I wonder, how long have they had crossover voting in New Hampshire and what kinds of funny results have occurred as a result?
selise,
I did not say you specifically called me a lemming, dear selise, just that your terse response to my long and well-thought out comment was kind of flip and tended toward disagreement which it was. There have been a lot of other posters here on FDL for the past few days who have made the suggestions or insinuations I mentioned, and your rather mild-by-comparison response was just the straw that happened to snap the camel’s back. That is all.
I just got back from an appointment I had to dash out to keep and read the later posts between TheraP and yourself. I totally understand that you are really looking to be convinced that Obama isn’t a poor choice and agree with whomever it was who said that wasn’t anyone’s job.
What TheraP and I were both offering was our professional judgment as our biggest reasons, aside from looking at what is on the record for either candidate. At some point, there always has to be a leap of faith when making a final choice. Considering that TheraP and I have been trained to look more at what people do rather than say, to look at little things that are difficult for a layman to quantify and sometimes even for a trained professional to totally explain, we were both saying that after watching both Obama and Edwards, we thought Obama was the better candidate. For me it has been a photo finish. When you responded that it was just a gut reaction you were right, but in our case is a highly trained gut reaction, an educated guess as opposed to just going with who we liked best.
That was the point we both were trying to make and why we have been so frustrated with the characterizations of Obama supporters as either “Uninformed or hypnotized.” We are neither. We might be wrong, but when you have spent an entire professional career honing a keen ability to “read people,” which we have as mental health professionals, you tend not to take lightly those “gut feelings” that are usually the result of many small signals the brain has picked up and used to help make a diagnosis. You totally get to make the call not to trust our instincts, but our point is that assessing people and looking past the veneer is part of what we do for a living so we might have an edge over the average gut.
I don’t trust either Obama or Edwards all that much and Clinton hardly at all, cause I’m a cynical old woman. So to be fair I don’t think you have to trust my gut. If would be really cool, though, if you gave it some consideration.
Therap,
I love you, too. It is nice to have someone else explain something beautifully while you are still struggling to find the right words. That is what I love the most about FDL and why I always lurk even if I don’t always post. Thank you.
(((Marretta)))
so sorry to be even the straw taht causes you grief.
Here is WJC’s speech at Coretta Scott King’s funeral.
Didn’t find Hillary’s.
thanks for the link, i’ll check it out.
gotta say, i think your take makes the most sense to me (that doesn’t mean any other candidate would make a better president – i’m just trying to analyze obama alone before doing another comparison).
i’d have more comfort with obama’s ability to inspire, if his record of action was also inspiring. but it’s just not (to me). and i’d have more comfort with marretta’s and therap’s gut reaction if they had spent some quality one-on-one time with him to be able to know the real obama vs. the one we’re getting sold via a very sophisticated marketing operation.
so there i am… pretty much unenthusiastic about all the candidates.
Is it just reaching out from Obama’s campaign or is there a push from the Right to reach out and pick Obama up?
BTW, does anybody know what kind of Repubs seem most attracted to his campaign and what specifically they mention as his appeal?
Selise,
Not grief, you just triggered a bit of crankiness. I was overdue for a pain pill as well. This wet weather is really taking a toll. No harm done, and I continue to value your comments. I do get why the charismatic preacher cloak that Obama sometimes slips on creeps you. It creeps me as well. As a cradle Episcopalian, most evangelical church services seem to me to be wild and out of control, like a scene from the Blues Brothers. Nothing wrong with them, just not something I am comfortable with. Maybe you are rejecting the message because you are troubled by the packaging? That is totally valid. So is voting for anyone one you like better.
Honestly? Edwards is by far the most attractive. He’s the only one addressing racial inequality and corporate malfeasance. Let Hillary win, the DLC wing wins. Let Obama win, Republikan-lite wins (free market for everyone, woo hoo!)
He’s free market, Obama that is. See BlackAgendaReport link above.
First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they fight you.
Then you win.
They’re still clinging to the first point.
MarkH,
My 82 year old FDR-hating lifelong Republican father is seriously thinking of going with Obama. He says it is because he likes the way he speaks and that he is devout. Dad was raised Southern Baptist, so religion is a thing with him. Of course, he voted for Dubyah, twice. Dad isn’t a deep thinker but he is concerned that his kids and grandkids may not have things as easy as he did as a young adult. He worries a lot about the disappearing middle class.
i like what edwards is saying now about economic issues. actually, i like it a lot. but i’m wary because that was not who he was during his time in the senate. can i believe him now?
also, i’m not happy with his foreign policy statements (other than the “WOT” is a crock). but then all the front runners seem to be standard issue imperialists.
sometimes it seems i’m just trying to figure out which of the candidates would kill the fewest people. between trade and economic policy (how many deaths did clinton cause by trade policy alone? from sanctions to forcing the “washington consensus” on other nations, i bet it was a lot), bombing people and starting wars, and environmental damage…
Mark,
I think the MSM are ignoring Edwards because their corporate overlords don’t like his anti-corporate rhetoric. If I I thought he would follow through on half of what he actually says, I would vote for him in a cold minute.
He’s obviously a good speaker in set speeches. His debate performances are mediocre to bad.
Maybe it’s that a lot of his set speeches are taken right from John Edwards speeches.
What I really wonder is if Obama is in league with Republicans to distort the Democratic process or if he has no part of it and they are acting Rovian to control the Dem primary outcome for their own benefit or if it’s an entirely natural of Obama’s ‘uniting’ approach.
It’s really not clear to me what’s going on with Obama and Republicans.
Don’t forget, just shortly before the Iowa caucuses the polls had him 3rd in a hotly contested race. Something changed rather quickly after that.
I’m actually an Edwards voter at the moment, but it’s not that strong because of a very shaky voting record and some questionable quotes and actions over the last couple of years. However, I have been interested in how many in the Netroots are so critical of Obama, yet their own candidate is guilty of those same things, and often even more so than Obama.
David Sirota did a fair article on Obama in 2006 that gives a good sense of what Obama’s really like:
http://davidsirota.com/index.p…..ashington/
“By almost all measures, Obama has been a solid liberal, both in his early career as a community organizer and then as a local politician. In the Illinois State Senate he supported increased funding for healthcare and education and wrote bills to publicly finance judicial campaigns and create a state earned-income tax credit. His charisma, intellect and ability to build bipartisan coalitions were evident early in his career, fueling progressives’ high hopes for him. In the US Senate, for the most part he has stuck with his party on key votes when so-called moderates didn’t. For example, Obama voted against the corporate-written Central American Free Trade Agreement. And he was particularly outspoken after Hurricane Katrina, leading the charge among lawmakers demanding answers about the government’s failure to protect New Orleans.”
And a search for ‘obama senate liberal record’ calls up a bunch of stuff. First one I clicked on:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/…..ldwel.html
“The liberal Americans for Democratic Action rates Obama’s voting record in the Senate at 97.5 percent, near perfection for liberal Democrats. The American Conservative Union, the ADA’s ideological opposite, rates Obama’s voting record at a rock-bottom 8 percent. Both ratings leave no doubt that Obama’s actual votes mark him as a traditionally liberal Democrat, not a moderate.”
Sure, a lot of what he has done is calculation in the US Senate, so he can score well on Liberal tests, like Likuderman saying he voted with Dem 90% of time in the Lamont race, when we know that wasn’t really true.
I just can’t turn a blind eye to the amazing tightrope walk he has to walk given his skin color, his age, and his lack of connections to the DeeCee power structures. I think he is pandering to certain extent, but he has kept his Liberal cred in tact through it all…for the most part. Booman covered this nicely I thought:
http://www.boomantribune.com/s…..34546/6206
“Many people I really respect, like Chris Bowers, have been almost obsessed with these aspects of Obama’s campaign. It’s surprised me. Obama and Bowers are like twins separated at birth, but Bowers has struggled to get past discordant rhetoric from the Obama campaign. In my view, Obama’s rhetoric has been finely calibrated to reassure white people, the media, the Beltway, the business community, and the Blue Dogs and moderates. He took the progressives a bit for granted because, frankly, he had that luxury.”
And I’ll add, Obama HAS TO do this in order overcome many of the societal hurdles in his way. Outside of these speeches and rather dull voting record, there is nothing in his past to suggest that he’s a Milton Friedman is sheeps clothing. In fact, quite the opposite.
And in terms of what he has accomplished compared to Hillary…how about getting himself into position in the first, all on his own efforts? If elected, Obama’s story will be on of the great American stories. That’s an accomplishment for the ages.
Selise,
Vote for the candidate least likely to kill through or neglect? Wow, that ought to be a question every candidate should have to address. Don’t hold your breath on it unless you look good in cyanotic blue. I am just sick at heart and exhausted that so many people are dying because of this country’s wrongheaded policies.
Even if you accept that he says “We share” it isn’t even natural to assume the public has that vision and it certainly doesn’t follow that the Republicans are going to lay down and join him in good fellowship. It’s idealism in the extreme and that’s a big part of why I call him naive.
That’s just not true. Several had them neck and neck, and I remember at least one that had Obama leading. Just saw your post above about students coming back to Iowa to vote. This is done all the time. I’m certain Hillary encouraged this. If Obama did more than anyone else has before, I’d say that’s smart, especially considering the results. It’s legal and hardly could be considered a conspiracy.
Now renting as many vans as possible and letting them sit vacant like Hillary’s campaign did, so other campaigns couldn’t get as many people to caucus…that’s just sleazy.
Ironically, I’m in the middle of reading Malcolm Gladwell’s book “Tipping Point.” It describes what I think we’re seeing with Obama, and frankly I’ve been longing for something like this phenomenon for years. I think Obama was the spark to set it all off, and the floodgates have opened. We’re seeing now in the NH polls where Obama is just taking off (is this fishy too?). We hit the Tipping Point I think, and will probably be seeing more and more of these huge number swings.
Obama isn’t the only senator like that. If you look at Joe Lieberman’s or Hillary’s record you could say the same.
Actually, there *is* something that the media did by pushing the inevitability meme.
And it’s a psychological trick. For example, can you remember any time in your childhood when your parents told you you had to do something? And did they ever say, “It doesn’t matter what you want. You have no choice in the matter.” Remember how that made you feel? I can remember feeling two things: anger and powerlessness. And I looked around for a way to get even.
That’s I think what is happening here. For months, the media has been telling people that Hillary was inevitable and people started to resent the fact that they had no say i the matter- except they did. They could vote for someone else just to show they had some power after all. Obama was the beneficiary of that and with additional media fluffing, he won the day.
The media has never liked Hillary and they were determined to take her out. I don’t think they cooked up the ineveitability thing themselves but they sure milked it for all it’s worth.
ADA voting averages for Democratic Presidential candidates:
Barack Obama – 97.5
Hillary Clinton – 95.8
Dennis Kucinich – 89.5
Chris Dodd – 86.2
Joe Biden – 79.5
John Edwards – 77.5
Bill Richardson – 72.9
Mike Gravel 61.2
Edwards is low because of his votes on Iraq.
Yes, clearly that is the issue with him.
We discussed is here (as I recall) months ago and Obamans didn’t go with him then. On another blog there wasn’t a peep. It’s all quiet and then boom they’re everywhere.
Well, anyway, I sent a query this morning to the Edwards website specifically asking him to address that issue. Without a great statement from him I don’t think he can reach more people, the ones he needs to win. I suppose it’s just a coincidence that the Boston Globe story about him also brings it up. It’s just obviously that one issue out there which hasn’t been discussed publicly.
Whose Freedom? By George Lakoff is an interesting and enlighten reading.
His book is filled with human and emotional guidelines that show Liberal and Conservative points of view. Faming ideals is presented, and one can learn how issues can be taken out context, mixed, changed, even challenged with the proper skills one can turn an issues one hundred and eighty degrees in their own favor even when the issue is fundamentally flawed and wrong. Like the War in Iraq. Or, worse the fundamentals that included its review and investigation as to how 911 occurred, basically lost in the shuffle as to what went wrong.
George Lakoff, if you want to apply it, shows one how you may deal with the constant hell that is emitted from national cable news Mainstream Media Journalist. It took some time but it finally grows with me to a point that it is a steady reference. However one particular ideal stands out, that is the rule of law and our Constitution. How America has side stepped this fundemental with Bush’s leadership America has been devastated when America has to consume time on the definition of Torture of waterboarding that was condemned even by the Geneva Convention.
This action of torture that America even takes the time to discuss as favorable and fundamentally good is a dark time.
I agree. That’s the kind of underhanded stuff Gephardt and Kerry pulled on Dean in 2004. We really don’t need that in the Democratic Party.
Bonkers,
Why do I keep thinking of the Gary Cooper movie, “Meet John Doe” whenever I think of Obama. If he is a puppet of the Republicans, I hope it isn’t something he actually agreed to. I might buy unknowing puppet because he is trusting the wrong people to give him advice, but I don’t see him as that innocent. If he was all that innocent, he never would have survived Illinois politics. That comment was from my Dad, who has lived though a lot more of the Daily Machine than I have
Then, why would all the Repubs be interested in a guy even more Liberal than D. Kucinich? This is all goofy.
Just saw short synopsis of Obama’s time in the Senate, from all people…Larry Kudlow who really doesn’t like Obama. That’s a big plus for Obama right there!
http://article.nationalreview……E5OTFjODE=
Don’t forget, there’s not a whole lot a Senator, especially a junior one can get done all by themselves. It’s a very stifiling institution. Outside of something really drastic like a filibuster, and look how hard it’s been just to get someone like Dodd to do that, Obama has quite an Old Boyz network in his way. He might win our support by something like that, but as we unfortunately know we’re in the minority in society.
From what I understand at the Craig Crawford blog, it’s the Independents, (the ones who so graciously gave us George W. in 2004), who are pulling the NH numbers in Obama’s favor. A LOT of Dems still support Hillary. The Independents are a fickle bunch. I believe they could host a show called Flip that Vote after the way they let Iowa change their minds overnight. Seems to me that although they like to consider themselves “independent”, they remind me of a man who stuffs his crotch or a woman who pads her bra—not a lot of muscle inside, just fluff. They have a herd mentality and will stampede in whatever direction the wind is blowing—hope there aren’t any cliffs around. If Bloomberg gets in the fray, which he has hinted about doing if Hillary is NOT the nominee, then my guess is that the leader of their pack will smell something new and head in that direction. I know I’ll be voting for Bloomberg myself if Hillary is discounted — so I hope I don’t get knocked over on my way to the voting booth by those rip-roarin’, snortin’ Independents.
Your support for Bloomberg is duly noted—again. We get it.
Absolutely. Given his skin color, modest background, unusual upbringing, you just know he has been through some incredible shit throughout his life. Yet here he is, likely to make some serious history. And he and his wife Michelle did it all on their own. Fascinating story.
He might be one of the toughest Presidents, and with the most “street smarts” as anyone we’ve ever had…in recent history at least.
I can’t see Bloomberg getting anywhere. Have you ever seen him speak? Yeesh…
SeeSaw Romney is finding out how hard it is to buy a Presidency with your own money. And Mittmo even has good-looks, seemingly nice family, and can speak moderately well. Bloomberg has none of this.
Mark and Mr Why,
Why would a bunch of Repubs be interested in a guy even more liberal than D Kucinich?
Religion. Christianity to be specific.
That is why an 82 year old male who has never voted for a Democrat in his life is thinking of voting for Obama. It isn’t my litmus test, but if you discount it in other voters you will live to regret it. A lot of people will vote for Obama with the skin color he has, and the middle name he has so long as he is a good Christian and goes to church every Sunday with his wife and kids.
Oh, and just to show how much I love you you two, how many voters do you think even know what the ADA voting averages are, much less think to look them up?
Giggling helplessly here. You give most voters way too much credit, just saying.
Bonkers at 292,
Wow. I am shoving that link at the next person who gripes at me about Obama’s record. That fact that it is written by some pundit that obviously can’t stand him or his choices certainly makes it even more interesting reading. Yeah, he’s Republican Lite. Not.
I stopped judging people on what they say a long time ago. See what they have done in the past and you will get a good idea of what they will do in the future. That is the main reason I won’t vote for Edwards. He hasn’t always walked the walk when his own personal interest and connections were at stake.
Obama is no choirboy, but he has a better voting record than Edwards from what I can tell.
Glad to help.
It’s funny how wingnuts are becoming the best resource to find out how Liberal someone is. They point out all these things as if they’re negatives, when for us, it looks great.
Of course, there are many that’ll have links for you that show some questionable Obama votes and quotes, but it seems like you and I agree that you can do that with just about any national level politician (Kucinich, Feingold, Boxer, Sanders, Dodd, etc. have all done some questionable things). I hope Obama gets credit for the good things he’s done as well.
Has the Swiftboating begun? A comment posted on a CNN site by “mike” on January 6, 2008 6:30 pm ET follows. How much is true — and does that ever matter? Without more specifics from Obama, such attacks may have a strong effect.
I found this on:
http://politicalticker.blogs.c…..hampshire/
And today these:
And, it will get worse.
No one gave us George W in 2004. It was the Clintons, Gore and Kerry who are responsible for “George W”. Once we get beyond these peety office seekers, the better off we will be.
But somebody who has used cocaine too? Do we really need a nominee like that? It’s gonna be hard enough in the South and with all the crap they’ll just invent to throw at him.
If people are still reading this thread, ABC has video of HRC’s at times emotional response to why she is running. Didn’t work for me in FireFox, did in IE.
The nuance of where the emotion shows through isn’t evident just reading a transcript. The emotion is when she’s alluding to the need to undo the impact the Bush administration has had on the country at home and abroad.
Scuse me? I didn’t bring up the ADA numbers. I was just pointing out that it didn’t make any sense to look at them.
Also, are you saying Obama is more religious than Edwards or Clinton? If you are you’ll have to show some evidence of it.
From my perspective Hillary was the most conservative Dem candidate and Obama next and then possibly Richardson and Biden and then Edwards was (sort of) in the middle of the pack with Dodd, Kucinich and Gravel to his left. So, if people dismiss Hillary as status quo then it would make sense for them to consider other people. Obama and Edwards were the other 2 best-polling candidates.
Are the public only able to consider candidates whose names they hear repeatedly by mainstream media?
If they’re just going to act like herd animals and only know what the media tells them, then we’re all up a creek without a paddle.
Maybe it’s that simple: Hillary was out, so Barack got the next crack at it just before the Iowa vote. But, uh, that didn’t appear to be it because after Hillary slumped and Barack bumped up there was a leveling-off. Then there was the last minute bump and neither Hillary nor Edwards took a hit from that.
Still, it appears Obama has the big Mo now and regardless of how he got it this is the time for Edwards to push Hillary out and then tear down the Big O.
I wonder if Dems feel comfortable nominating someone whom they would not have without significant Repub support.
Umm you pulled the “solid liberal” part out, but that was (1) written in ‘06 and (2) Sirota seems pro-Obama at this point, but also a little
troubled by some things . . . ex:
The ADA numbers were raised by bonkers @ 280, quoting from a San Diego Union Tribune article. I looked them up, and they seemed strange to me, Obama and Clinton more liberal than Kucinich? And Edwards and Dodd? Something a little odd.
The numbers are from a table: Life Time ADA Voting Average Of 2008 Presidential Candidates. They don’t provide any real insight, but they raise many questions, and that’s why I posted them.
The ADA site provides a 49 page document – the voting summary is page 1 – which gives each candidate’s voting record and stance on the Iraq war, health care, energy & environment, worker’s rights, and civil rights.
Selise, people change. I think Edwards has. Al Gore has too. I think he’s sorry about the authorization of militray force crap vote that led us into this mess. I am placing my bet on Edwards, because I cannot stand partykillers DLC Hillary and Hamilton Project Obama. And because I admire his stand on corporations.
The independent I know is fussy. He likes to over analyze things and then can’t figure out why he has such a hard time making up his mind. He also wants someone to come to him directly and personally ask for his vote. But the most annoying thing about my favorite independent is that he has no core beliefs so he’s easily persuaded by the last person who’s talked to him. So, I think the trick to get independents to vote for you is to wait til the very last second to make your appeal. Because that’s the thing that will be rattling around in their heads when they enter the voting booth.
It is truly odd. A little like Naral endorsing gurney Joe?
At any rate here is the link where Obama calls Wellstone a gadfly and Sirota scratches his head on Obama’s record.
If we’re going to quote Sirota, I think its only fair to include some of his most recent writing: Edwards, Huckabee & The Rise of Iowa’s Huey Longs.
Remember, the repubs are frustrated with the status quo also. They are not happy with their candidates. Most people here are looking at all the issues, and the way people vote, etc, not just responding to the personalities of people.
But the broad base of voters are simply looking for someone they like, someone who meets their particular needs/wants/desires – and most are making a choice on the basis of a speech or seeing the person on tv and a “sense” of whether they are comfortable with that person.
They’ve done studies related to college professors. If you show someone a tape of a professor for as short as a few minutes, they end up rating the person just about the same as after a whole semester. So we make snap judgments all the time. And for many people, maybe not you or I or most people here, it’s a gut level thing, it’s a snap judgment. Even if you match with someone by taking a test of your issues and their issues to see if they match in terms of where you stand, you may not like the person. So that factors in.
We have to face that the public at large is making a decision. We don’t have control over that. We have to the best of things. And hope and pray for a Dem with a conscience and a desire to put the Constitution and the We the People first.
By the way, what a great thread! Lots of good ideas and kindness!