Yesterday there were a flurry of reports about an Iraqi soldier shooting and killing two US soldiers during a joint mission. Reported as the first time this has happened, the reports in the American press may tell only half the story.
The rather startled reports repeated assertions that the attack was for "reasons unknown." Iraqi reports say the US soldiers were kicking a pregnant Iraqi woman when shot. Here’s what we’ve been able to learn so far.
On December 26, two American soldiers were killed during a “joint Iraqi-U.S. patrol undertaking security duty in al-Haramat area, western Mosul.”
The Multinational Force press office initially reported these deaths on December 28:
The Department of Defense announced today the death of two soldiers who were supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom. They died Dec. 26 in Mosul, Iraq, of wounds suffered from small arms fire during dismounted combat operations.
Yesterday the MNF changed the story, releasing a new statement:
Two US Soldiers killed during a combined Iraqi Army and CF operation in Ninewah province on Dec. 26, were allegedly shot by an Iraqi Soldier.
For reasons that are as yet unknown, at least one Iraqi Army Soldier allegedly opened fire … The incident occurred as US and Iraqi Army Soldiers were conducting operations to establish a combat outpost. Three other US Soldiers and one civilian interpreter were wounded in the attack.
The Iraqi Soldier who allegedly opened fire fled the scene but was identified by other Iraqi Army personnel and was then apprehended. Two Iraqi Army Soldiers are More…now being held in connection with the incident.
Coalition and Iraqi investigations into the incident are underway.
The AP reported on the new version – but did not mention that the MNF had previously given a very different account and repeats Green Zone government claims that:
Initial results from an Iraqi investigation indicate that the soldier who opened fire may have links to local militants, said Brig. Mutaa Habib Jassim al-Khazrachi, commander of the Iraqi army’s 2nd Division, who did not elaborate.
They leave out the part of the story which is capturing attention in Iraq.
Aswat Al Iraq provided the initial lead that there was more that was not being reported here:
The U.S. side denied that this Iraqi soldier opened fire at U.S. servicemen because they sexually harassed an Iraqi girl, affirming that the scene where the incident took place was void of any civilians. (emph added)
Thanks to help from Dubhaltach of GorillasGuides who has looked at the Arabic media for us, we have the following additional information from several sources including Yagen and Al Akhbar (Lebanon):
The reports are that during searching the woman’s house the Americans assaulted her and when she was on the ground started to kick. The soldier who is named Caesar Saadi Al-Jibouri asked them to stop beating her and when via interpreter they refused saying that could do as they wished he went to one of the patrol vehicles and opened fire. (via email)
Dubhaltach mentions that the Iraqi soldier’s name identifies him as a member of one of the tribes involved in the “awakening” (that oh so successful Petraeus surge tactic of paying $300 per month to members of Sunni tribes to fight on the American occupation side):
Caesar Saadi Al-Jibouri means he is from the al-Jubouri tribe. He is from Al-Qiara which is a very "hot" area. It likely therefore that he is indeed a "concerned citizen" fighter and one moreover who at the very least knows people who have fought Americans.
and that the US Army statement to Aswat Al Iraq that the area was “void of any civilians” is belied by the actual location:
The incident took place during a search operation being carried out in Al-Siha (that is a district where the invaders are unpopular to put it mildly, Al Siha is on the right side of the river bank.) However the report says they were conducting operations prior to establishing a combat outpost. You do not establish combat outposts in unpopulated areas in or around a city you are attempting to subdue. I find it difficult therefore to believe that the area was "void of civilians" (via email)
Dubhaltach, who has served in Iraq with MNF forces, adds:
It would not surprise me if there is a considerable amount of truth in the part of the report that the woman was being beaten and kicked. It would hardly be the first time that Americans have done that.
Xinhuanet initially reported the MNF statement but is now providing a fuller account and includes statements of the Muslim Scholars Association who have
identified the Iraqi soldier as Qaisar Saadi al-Jubory and said the Iraqi soldier had shot the U.S. soldiers after he witnessed them beating a pregnant woman.
"His blood rose and he asked the occupying (U.S.) soldiers to stop beating the woman. Their answer through the translator was: ‘We will do what we want.’ So he opened fire on them."
Iraqi and American officials have denied the accusation.
"There is no indication that that is true and the matter remains under investigation," said U.S. military spokesman Colonel James Hutton.”
Roads to Iraq translates the Muslim Scholars Association statement as follows: (as a non Arabic speaker, I can’t vouch for their translation but it seems close to what Du has heard as well):
An American occupation force joined by the Iraqi forth regiment raided Al-Siha district at the right side of Mosul city.
They attacked a house of a pregnant woman, started beating her harshly and she was screaming and crying from the pain, one of the Iraqi government forces his name is Caesar Saadi Al-Jibouri from Al-Qiara district asked them to stop beating the woman, the answer came through the interpreter was “we do what we want”.
The Iraqi soldier went to one of the armed vehicles and opened fire killing three Americans among them a captain and injured the interpreter.
Whatever weakness occurred to the nation, there comes a time when they will revolt against the occupation just like Caesar’ [one man] revolution, this incident must be a good breakthrough for Iraqis who have been involved in the service of the occupier.
While the Association of Muslim Scholars condemns these criminal acts of the occupation forces, AMSI shows its jubilation with the heroic act from the Iraqi soldier and asks employees of the police and army to consider his act as role model.
Sources have reported to the GorillasGuides team that posters, leaflets and graffiti are appearing in Mosul praising “Caesar” for his actions.
Cernig at Newshoggers is also following this and writes with some caution:
The only reason it appears this contrary tale doesn’t appear in Western reporting of the incident is that no-one hunkered in the Green Zone bothered to look beyond the version put out by the Iraqi authorities. However, if U.S. military investigations into the incident were also examining such allegations then that would explain both the initial US reluctance to give out too many details or indeed to follow the Iraqi official version too closely now.
Let me make this clear – I find the Sunni insurgency version being given space by Iraqi papers neither more nor less credible than the official Iraqi military version. Such things have been accused before and on separate occasions have turned out both to be real happenings and fictitious propaganda. However, there have been coverups by both Iraqi and US authorities on some of the occasions when such allegations proved to be true in the past. (snip)
No, what I mean to highlight is that an important story with a massively negative potential "hearts and minds" impact has been missed by a Western media confined to the relative safety of imbeds and Green Zone reliance on stringers. The best way to deal with that potential is to acknowledge and cover the version in the Iraqi Sunni press and, should it be debunked, to say so loudly and with voluminous proof. Should it prove true, on the other hand, ignoring it will not make its impact disappear from the streets of Mosul.
I find it telling that this story is being hushed up in the US media in the same week that “the Marine Corps has decided that none of the Marines involved in the incident will be charged with murder” in the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians in Haditha.
As a country that has refused to accept and enforce accountability for our illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, for the thuggish behavior of too many of our soldiers and for the uncounted civilian casualties that have resulted, any given report may or may not be true but the overall mistreatment of Iraqi civilians makes both actions like the shootings – and reactions like those of the Muslim Scholars Association inevitable.
Update: Eureka Springs noted via email the following NYT article this morning U.S. Considers New Covert Push Within Pakistan and how it seems to coincide with comments last night from Eureka and several other firepups that their local military bases are shipping out new troops to Afghanistan. These reports were from Arkansas, Missouri, Texas, Hawaii, Mississippi, Arizona and one other we can’t recall. (Tom Hayden makes a good point about Pakistan in the Huffington Post as well.) Just as we only are learning half the story on the shooting incident in Mosul in the American media, is there more going on here than we are being told?
h/t to Dubhaltach for taking time away from the family to provide so much help and to Eureka Springs for connecting the dots.
The YouTube above is the work of David Iles whose other videos can be viewed here.
Related posts:
- Spinning the Death of a 12 Year Old – Journalism Fail
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Jurgen Todenhofer, Why Do You Kill?: The Untold Story of the Iraqi Resistance
- Maliki vs. Odierno: Who Blinks First?
- US Contractors Held in Iraqi Jail for Green Zone Murder
- Breaking: Seven Killed in Fort Hood Shooting (Update: 12 Dead)





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Siun!!!
Siun, everybody’s downstairs with the Repug Debate… *g*
Somehow I think most are still down below gawking at the Rehuglicans’ non-debate.
Kicking pregnant women? Can US soldiers or any Americans get away with that? No! Maybe this is the way George Bush wants the peace spread around the Middle East? Spit.
Thanks CTuttle – we thought we’d let people chat about the debate there and then join us here.
Hi Siun, you’ve been busy!
‘Sup, everyone!
These are AMERICAN soldiers – when did this type of behavior become acceptable? I am ashamed and somewhat scared. Could this type of thing happen here – perhaps under Blackwater.
This will certainly be good for the Republicans, though.
“Beating a pregnant woman”? This is almost an unspeakable crime.
For all we know Twain it may well have happened here considering how immune Blackwater is to actual scrutiny. :~(
Uh-oh, that just might put a crimp in their surge strategy… We need to stop this fuckery now! My Boyz are truly pissed that they’re headed back…
Our military is totally losing it. We need to get them outta there for our sake, their sake and Iraq’s sake. good grief.
I am sorry too if American soldiers did what is alledged. I have two nephews who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan and this is not what I would ever expect from them. That being said, American soldiers have done things in different conflicts that have been criminal.
Thanks Siun. I find the whole Cheney push for CIA’s unfettered assault on Pakistan to be particularly odd juxtaposed with this news item popping up at the same time. Does Musharif want Cheney to attack pakistan?
Pakistan President: `Not Particularly’ Looking For Bin Laden -AFP
Siun, it seems that there are real big cracks opening up in the whole ‘awakening’ phenomena.
Again, the US will end up overstaying and overplaying their hands.
Add in what is looking like a Pakistan push and the continued deterioration in Afghanistan, an elevation between Israel and Hamas, Lebanon’s crisis and the growing problems in the horn of Africa………the big blow up is coming.
-G
TROOPS
HOME
NOW
“Troops” have done similar things in every army and in every war that has ever been fought. Seems to be a minority of humans who have the gene for kickin the shit out of people who can’t fight back.
All of these types of stories.. Haditha..etc..etc..
fall into the “Horrors of War” category.. ALL supporters or enablers of this debacle/slaughter in Iraq share responsibility. HRC included. This is the lesson I learned from the Vietnam war, why did our leaders not learn the same lesson I did ???
AZ Matt – it’s good to see you. I think we have to face what our training and horrific leadership has done to the military. While clearly not all US soldiers act this way, there are very sad accounts (esp in the Chris Hedges piece which is linked here in which soldiers discuss their own horror at what they found themselves doing) that we need to call for a return to honorable leadership of the forces.
If you send troops to combat- be sure that incidents like this will follow. It’s a part of the cost.
Sadly RWC, the reports suggest that US command has encouraged rather than disciplined such actions and we fin d ourselves with situation like the British asking us to get out of their areas of Afghanistan due to our lack of proper care of civilians.
I mean this as an actual question, not as a screed: What kind of human beings have our young people in the military become? (And yes, I realize this is something that’s been done to them.)
Being deployed multiple times and “fighting” this kind of war is tearing our soldiers apart. When subjected to such violence constantly just destroys their morals. I am not condoning this behavior and any soldier who commits such acts need to be punished. It just shows you that this war needs to end and bring the boys home. Even then they will be scarred and jaded for life. I have seen first hand what a terrible toll war takes on our boys. My uncle was in the second wave at Iwo Jima and he never was the same, he became a drunk and could never hold down a job.
We need Edwards in the White House he will bring the boys home!
The grunts in Iraq take their cues from the top down. Our hobby-horse riding, imitation cowboy in chief is the role model.
Siun
If so then someone should be HUNG.
Agreed RWC … agreed
Casualties were way down for two months so goopers are declaring victory in Iraq. This month seems to show a slight uptick so far.
Ya Bush, Cheny and Rummey suck the big one for doing this to our boys!
Investigate!
Impeach!
Indite!
Prosecute!
Incarcerate!
Then ship them to the Hague for trial on charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity!
I’ve been noticing that.
The surge ’success’ will soon go down in the great pantheon of bromides we’ve been offered……Mission accomplished 2.0.
-G
McCain says the Surge has saved American lives. How is this possible since the Surge began in January and 2007 is the deadliest year for Americans?
What nahant said.
Wonder how many atrocities like this, or worse, have been committed in Iraq and will forever remain covered up?
It started when they shoved Shinseki rudely out the door… I was always trained to honor the Geneva Conventions and inhumane treatment was not tolerated, and would be vigorously prosecuted… There are always bad apples, but, the climate for Abu Ghraib, was influenced from the top-down…
“They hate us for our freedom”
to do whatever we want.
One is too many
Ding.
I think we have to face both what war does to all, but also what is true of our society that our soldiers accept orders to violate Geneva, etc.
When I was looking for a video for this post – and I hope everyone watches the YouTube and reads Chris Hedge’s article if you haven’t – the YouTube narration is direct quotes from soldiers in Hedges’ article – I came across tons of US soldier made videos showing what fun they were having tormenting Iraqi kids or teaching them to say Fuck Iraq etc … search YouTube for Iraq Kids sometime if you have the stomach,
We have a lot to answer for!
Is the “covert” push into Pakistan yet another parallel between Iraq and Vietnam? If so, then Pakistan is the new Cambodia.
As for the behavior ascribed to the US soldiers, if true, I’m with nahant on the effects of multiple deployments with insufficient time in between. The costs for proper care of these kids who volunteered, only to have their lives completely ruined. are going to be staggering. Of course, since the gummint almost certainly will not provide proper care, the number of time bombs we are going to have walking our streets is staggering.
Isn’t this a perfect opportunity for a democratic candidate to show some actual leadership?
I have a Cambodian friend who has shared the story of his family’s years in forced labor and escape.
Pakistan is not Cambodia.
Especially if the candidate is a sitting Senator who took that quaint little oath seriously. Hello Hillary or Barack?
And Iraq damn sure ain’t Iwo Jima.
I think it is a better situation for journalists and investigators to ply their trade than politicians.
That one took me a minute.
You are right.
I better get out of this one.
Eureka! thank you so much for the pointer to the connection between last night’s comments and today’s NYT story … I hope we are all watching carefully and demanding some answers – on both these stories.
I know we are up to about 4,000 U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq. Does anyone have number on how many Iraqis have been killed?
in WW2 a study was done; after 250 days in combat the psyche of the soldiers would crack….these guys have been there way longer than that i believe
Couldn’t do it without the lake. Anyone else out there notice State/local news reports of more national Guard deployments?
We don’t know because we have chosen not to count.
The Lancet study points to over 1 million and more.
Add in 1/5 of the population displaced, internally or externally.
Good point – we should be watching for news in local coverage … we may be able to sort out what is going on.
If we think that bushCo and CentCom are doing a little news managing now, just wait until midsummer, when those tens of thousands of Sunni insurgents getting into the U.S. Treasury for $300 a month each, decide they want a raise.
And until Sadr’s truce runs out…
And until the Kurds say: “No more postponements on that referendum to decide who controls Kirkuk.” (and that 15% of Iraq’ reserves.)
Wasn’t in “The Ministry of Truth”, in Orwell’s “1984″, that ginned up all the bullshit?
We as a nation I agree with! But we need to prosecute those that led us into war starting with the top leaders and working down from there. “A few bad apples” my ass! War brings out the worst in any one, especially when it comes down the chain of command. Water boarding any body??
AFAIK the numbers are not quality, but even if you take over a year old conservative figures, the deaath toll is staggering.
Johns Hopkins estimated 600,000 in 2006
There are some real differences in the definition of “combat”. The state of Georgia is giving a scholarship to all “combat” vets from Georgia Guard and Reserve troops. That inlcudes anyone who serves “in country”. That is A defeinition of combat but it has little to do with what combat was in WWII.
Expertt on this are you?
AMF
I so admire Mr. Muhammad Ali for his actions relative the ‘Nam war. Wonder what this man would want to say about the war criminal GWB.
iirc this was in the Pacific theatre
Last I saw on the web in was close or over one million!! What a fucking waste. I know some Iraq people and beyond the cultural differences they are just like you and me and want the same things in life.
Just our little helpful hand spreading Democracy and Freedom to the unwashed.
Not an expert by any definition but the evidence is lurking out there!
Thankyou.
I wonder how much we the people pay experienced waterboarders these days.
Ah, don’t forget that the GOP is the party that believes in the sanctity of life! The same party who likes them some endless war!
“I know some Iraq people and beyond the cultural differences they are just like you and me and want the same things in life.”
Yes. ;0)
I’d like to see questions asked to the big media about this Iraq story … let’s get all the info out in the open and find out what happened.
Re:
Credible sources say that over 1,100,000 Iraqis have died due to the action of the U.S. military since March 19, 2003. [The initial John Hopkins U. reporting method has recently been used by a UK NGO that published the data]
In addition, approximately 4 million Iraqis have become either internal or external refugees. That is about 15% of the population.
The longer this lasts, the more corrosive it becomes. Christ, we have major candidates who joke about torture and last week had an campaign flack stop just short of advocating genocide.
War causes moral rot, worshipping war accelerates it.
-G
With all the things we now know about the false reasons for attacking Iraq, and all the people our country is responsible for killing, where is the morality of the occupation?
There is (I think) a danger in fixating on some of these statistics.
Overlooking just one Iraqi civilian killed or bullied by our armed forces is endemic of a fundamental problem.
10,000 Iraqui civilians killed in an unprovoked military action is too many.
The scale, if anything, deadens the sensibilities of how wrong US policy and action in Iraq has been.
It is a policy based on a lie, and exploited by politicians and private contractors.
No godd has, or can come of it.
Yes!
My Gawd.
There is *no* morality.
There is only a question of change and remediation.
gnite
Re:
Currently the Army is seeking to reduce its deployments into Iraq from 15 months to 400 days, or approximately 13 months active duty.
The Marines have maintained a seven months in theater / seven month stateside rotation.
I interviewed a WW2 vet back in grad school more than 2 years ago. In Normandy about 10 days after D-Day as part of unattached tank battalion. Fought in the Hedgerows of France prior to the breakout of Patton in Operation Cobra. Was at the siege of Brest, the Colmar Pocket, The Huertgen Forest(he was a sergent in charge of a company, only six men left in that company), the northern flank of the Battle of the Bulge, the Rhine Crossing with patton, excepted the surrender of the German town of Dortmund from the mayor, fought through Germany and into Czechoslovakia. I asked how many times his tank had been hit by enemy fire. He had to escape about a dozen destroyed Shermans. The hardest thing he ever did when he was fighting in the Colmar Pocket was back a tank, whose crew and infantry company with it had been wiped out in German ambush, over the body of dead GI’s. He had never spoken of this before and it still haunted him.
We ask a hell of alot of men in combat. Unfortunately we curretly have leaders with no clue.
This website traces reported deaths in the media.
It also has links to the various studies.
-G
g’nite Mack … we’ll have to get together again sometime soon in Chi!
Grad school more than 20 years ago.
So is the DOD gonna say “we’re investigating” and the msm is gonna accept that and we won’t hear much, if anything, about this in the msm? I mean, assuming this is true, it’s just great. Our people can push it aside as an “isolated incident” and “a couple of bad apples” which is probably true, but at the same time they’ll fail to realize the impact of such an incident on the Iraqi’s. Bush and DAD should be asked about this every day.
When the lawless comander in chief sets the example of breaking any law getting in his way what the hell do people expect.
Gotta love them trying to win the Iraqi’s hearts and minds.
I brought this up yesterday, don’t know if you saw it.
Ohio sending Nat’l Guard to Iraq
So true. That recent Burns series was something because so many of those guys just were holding stuff inside. My uncle was a German POW. Never said a word about it on his own and would deflect questions anytime anyone would ask. Took all that to his grave. Only thing he told us was that when he was first captured and they saw his name, he recognized that they were speaking to him in Polish – which he didn’t speak and barely understood.
they initiated an unprovoked attack with a country they knew as a fact posed no threat
they deliberately destroyed the infrastructure, they deliberately fired the peacekeepers, they deliberately created anarchy, they deliberately empowered theocrats, tribal law
they deliberately hired militia that were not going to be prosecuted no matter what they would do, even so far as shooting families as they are on a weekend drive
to the tune of Elvis Presley
this is exactly what they want, they want lawlessness, they want anarchy
I can only pray there will be justice somewhere, somehow, for the people that have perpetrated this unrest on the world, for our children, for our grandchildren, for time unknown and cost untold
cufing around regnant women. how does that fit into General Petreus’s new winning stategy?
I have never met a vet who liked(enjoyed) talking about their combat experiences, this includes WWII or Vietnam. They would only speak about that subject in generalities and never in detail!
Are the holidays officially over now? Seems about time.
You are preaching to the choir. I hope bushco receives their kosmic justice. The sooner, the better.
I’ve met lots of vets who love telling you about every step they took while in uniform. Guess it’s a matter of taste.
what a joke that was, the very first thing they did was disband their peacekeepers, they wanted the theiving of their holy places, of their museums, they wanted the infrastructure destroyed so they wouldn’t have water, electricity, so IN AN OIL RICH NATION THEY WOULD WAIT IN LINE FOR GASOLINE
then they not only did they keep open the torture chambers of the man they supposedly deposed, they then advertised that they were torturing the people of this country
they never wanted to “win the hearts and minds” of the Iraqi’s, their very purpose is unrest, their only goal is the treasure of the middle east, the treasure of the wealthies country in the history of planet earth, the treasure and assets of the United States of America
they want fear, they will not rest if there is peace, the will invent fear, they will auther fear, they are “the archtechts” of destruction
If I’m not mistaken, you too are a vet?
Anyone with any sense could see that in occupying Iraq, Clusterfuck was taking on a task that could not be completed without incredible cruelty and killing. Occupations of people who don’t wish to be occupied are normally nasty affairs.
Can someone tell me how Edwards also somehow is lacking responsibility for crimes such as this? He also voted in favor of the Iraq Authorization and he continued to support that position until through the 2004 Election.In fact, when Kerry was considering challenging Bush on the war it was EDWARDS that advised him to stick to the ploy that it wasn’t wrong to authorize the invasion…it was the manner the war occurred that was wrong. Only later did he explain his vote as being based on deception by Bush.
But Edwards’ position seems to be it would have been justified to invade if WMD’s HAD EXISTED. Thus he still continues to believe that an occupation would have been a justifiable act under some circumstances….even short of an attack by Iraq.
Perris, your comment makes my hair stand up on end because I know it’s true and have known that a very long time. Unmitigated greed and exploitation abounds in Cheney and Bush’s heart.
That’s why I just puke when I hear sanctity of life. It makes a real sour taste in my mouth knowing what Bush and Cheney are doing with our men and women over there to the men and women who live there. It’s just vile. I know war is ugly. But they know the real reasons we’re at war.
But we were greeted as liberators and met with flowers, candy dates, figs and pomegranates. Why have things gone wrong?
Does anyone remember “mi lai”? I don’t remember the details (wiki has it), but I distinctly remember the soldiers complaining of becoming so jaded after so much combat, that it just wasn’t a big deal anymore. They just stop thinking of that anyone outside their own group as being human. I saw this in my friends that came back from combat.
THIS is why people shunned the returning vets, they scared the s&*t out of all the rest of us. Not that that was a good excuse for us that allowed them to be sent into that hell.
It’s part of the PTSS that formed our countries policies after WWII.
Thank you for the info.
My point being that vets would open up and feel safe talking with other vets who have “seen the elephant”…
Obama says he is against the Iraq war, however, he has voted to continue funding it. You can’t say you are against the war then continue to fund it.
how many of us raised the alarm?
how many of us?
and the military, they raised the alarm, and the REAL cia, not the fake one put together by cheney for the purpose of lying.
and us, how is it we knew and these idiots in office didn’t know we have a despot
he TOLD us he wanted war with Iraq, HE TOLD IT TO US BEFORE HE WAS EVEN PRESIDENT
I hold the democrats to account, this is their doing, not nearly as much as the despot in office, but they ARE culpable
they KNEW the president was just making it up and they allowed it becuase they were “affraid” of speaking out against the president after we were attacked
where are the warriors, where are the proud, the brave?
very few of our elected officals, very very few
The truth is that many dems gave support to the congressional resolution for two reasons:
1) they wanted to give Bush enough perceived power to negotiate a way out of the conflict
2) those with further political ambitions were afraid that the invasion would be a rousing success and they would be on the wrong side of history.
Seems stupid now- but I suspect that this is what they were thinking- Afghanistan had gone down WAY to easily.
read the link I posted, your hair will not only be raised, it will shoot through the roof, that story is mind boggling how parallel his actions with Iraq and what he did to nixon’s detant
you will have a friggin fit
I’m hearing the sweet sound of my lady calling me upstairs. Sweet dreams everyone.
lahoma and me
Family holiday story from days gone by.
Visiting old friends of my parents. My brother Marty’s gal, a sweet Jamaican girl came along.
As we all sat chatting, moms and pops, kids and friends and all…Someone mentions the host served in WWII.
Bro’s gal pal Gail sez just as room falls silent:
“So, how many people did you kill?”
Drinks and departing kisses followed quickly.
-G
Kucinich is one of those patriots screaming against the president and the war from the get go. He doesn’t have an icecubes chance in hell of getting elected. It makes no sense.
Night.
-G
Thank you. I thought I was alone in the world seeing that Bushco was making noises about needing to “clean up the mess the quitter administration” had left in Iraq.
No wonder Reagan called chimpy shiftless.
None of our frontrunners have acted honorably on Iraq …
it’s because he gets no play on corporate media, that’s the sense of it
just like edwards, edwards gets what little play he gets because of the last election but if not for that he would be in the same place as kucinich
they will not give the real warriors play
night kiddo and thanks for keeping me informed.
Well, seeing as we’ve been there for 7 years now. Not so much.
-G
Some Explosive News: Gagged Whistleblower Sibel Edmonds Says Corrupt US Officials Sold Nuke Secrets to Middle Eastern Countries
No wonder the Neocons wanted to stop Valerie Plame in her tracks.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/…..80077.html
http://www.bradblog.com/?p=5518
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/t…..137695.ece
Larisa Alexandrovna names names of those involved:
http://www.atlargely.com/2008/…..ks-pa.html
- Tom
‘Night OKK + L. Dream sweetly.
See EW ‘Boston’ thread for some discussion.
We’re left with Rupert Murdock’s media basically telling people who they can elect president. It’s sickening.
Thank you also. I always thought that the original vote was framed as a needed threat to get the inspectors back into Iraq, since everyone in the world knew a President can’t really use the military without congress approval.
did you read that in his diaries? when geo. sr. was bringing his son around – “not the one from florida”- Reagan was dreading it and was wondering who to palm Fucktard off to.
Well before Chimpy and Darth destroyed our government that is.
This is one thing that rankles me about the calls to bi-partisanship.
That war was a bi-partisan deal between the whole GOP caucus and the centrist rump Democrats.
How John Kerry could have voted against Gulf I and for Iraq II is an exersize in pure calculated politics.
-G
looks like oboma has a double digit lead over the hill
she has one more shot, if she can’t win the next primary she has to get out of the way
Thanks for this telling (and tragic) post, Siun
Thanks Perris, ugh. I went and read and for some reason, it’s ringing a bell. I knew that Cheney and Rummy had an early Love Connection. But I had just recently heard the “keep Americans in fear” thing on a TV show and I’m wracking my feeble memory to recall where. But thank you for the link.
Yeah, I mean, it just reeks.
Ya think they are still using the same tactics? :)
Good article.. who says history doesn’t repeat?
it rings a bell becuase it was the basis for “the hunt for red october”
just like Iraq, when the real cia wouldn’t make believe russia was a problem he came up with a differant “cia”, team “b”
they made up a story, the cia called them on it but they prevailed, they made everyone believe there was a threat that did not exist so they could steal
it’s what they do and it is AMAZING to me I didn’t know that story before we invaded Iraq because it MAKES NO SENSE WE LET RUMSFELD AND CHENEY LEAD US INTO WAR after what they pulled
it is SICKENING
perris, out
see all manana
peace.
Edwards did as well, right on up to the day he left office.
He only “changed his mind” when he had no power to actually change things in the Senate.
BTWHere is Senator Edwards’ “withdrawal” policy. He would keep two brigades in Iraq to protect the diplomatic mission and humanitarian projects. Two brigades is up to 4000 individuals when one considers support staff.
Then he’d create over-the-horizon Quick Reaction Force. Combat troops (not those used for protection) would be withdrawn from Iraq within the first year of his taking office. “Even though the presence of U.S. troops has served as an attractive target for terrorists, our withdrawal will not remove the threat. As president, Edwards will deploy troops in Quick Reaction Forces in friendly countries including Kuwait, to perform targeted missions against Al Qaeda cells in Iraq.” They will also be used if a Civil War breaks out to protect civilians at risk of genocide.
Now think carefully about this. It really means that we will continue to have large numbers of troops in Iraq. Any successful attack policy against terrorists would mean that troops would be based IN IRAQ in forward camps. To think that they would be pulled back out daily is an absurd notion. Combat troops would still be IN IRAQ. Edwards is just using a bit of rhetorical sleight-of-hand to say that they aren’t gonna be.
if she has to get outta the way, what’s the rationale for Edward’s staying in? The argument he;s making? It’ll be down to the two real “change” candidtaes and the people gotta chose between them? She won’t drop out. i can’t see that.
It;s an unnamed senior State Department official. I say Armitage. No reason. Just because.
I’ve been disappointed that Edwards has not taken a progressive stand on Iraq and only recently even agreed to give us specific numbers for withdrawal. The plan to leave troops in countries bordering Iraq does not answer for the disaster of this entire policy.
Armitage is my guess too, for all of the same non-reasons. The only rational argument I can make in favor of him is that he’s a notorious gossiper, so he’s likely to say anything to anyone, and then deny it afterwards.
Smary would seem to be a compliment to Armitage. And Powell, for that matter.
Edwards (and I’m an Edwards gal) is the least worst of the bad. When I read the paens to him on FDL, I get very concerned about dashed expectations. He talks a good game domestically, is less good on international matters, and who knows WTF he would really do as prez.
6.2 earthquake in Indonesia — BBC
Let’s also keep our eyes on November. Despots don’t give up power willingly. What better excuse than egging on another attack before the elections. Jill-iani tried to do that after 9/11. Could they be trying to scare someone into an attack so the US elections can be “postponed”?
Americans would never do such. America does not torture.
Americans are always and invariably on the side of right.
Most of America is tonight doing a most excellent imitation of Hitler’s ‘Good Germans’. Did you see any real discussion of Iraq in the primary campaign; and, no, discussions of when the troops are coming home is not what I’m talking about.
Yeah…’Good Germans…’
Hey! We totally agree again! That’s how I feel about edwards. We agreed twice within 5 comments. Gotta be a record.
He’d bring the troops home from Iraq within 9 months.
That’s a hell of a start compared to ‘Bomb Iran Obama/Clinton’ or is that ‘Bomb Iran McCain’?
I get confused sometimes.
You have good reason. It’s no accident that his name is the second signature on this PNAC letter:
http://www.newamericancentury……letter.htm
After working in government for many years, how could his outing of Plame be simple sloppiness on his part? The Bush administration covers their nefarious activities as incompetence.
- Tom
I like him. When eCAHN says “least worst of the bad” i don’t have a problem with supporting somebody like that. Maybe I’m not really agreeing with her “totally”. i started supporting edwards the day after the 2004 election (he hadn’t even announced yet) because i thought hwe could win and I was pissed about losing. again. I had no idea what he would wind up standing for, really. But I like the things he’s sayin’.
He told woodward as well as novak about Plame, didn’t he? Doesn’t sound like sloppiness.
Siun, I assume you have seen the McClatchey Iraqi Blog. I read about it here.
I wonder if some of this was related to the reported plan to give the Iranians bogus schematics for the detonators used in nuclear devices. As I understand it the plans for triggers were passed over with materials on nuclear reactors and calutrons purchased by the Iranians. The intermediate on this was supposedly a Russian. Whether some of these students were allowed in to work at US facilities in order to pass tainted information was a part of this process might also be possible. If so, what Edmonds may have heard could be a counter-espionage operation…the State Department officials may have been involved in the sting and bragging about how much they took the Iranians for.
If all this bribery and passing of nuclear secrets occurred in 2000, BEFORE Bush’s ascension to the Presidency…I can’t see any reason he hasn’t hauled out these accounts to embarrass the Clintons and to support the tub-thumping by Cheney to attack Iran.
There’s something very odd here…what with Leahey and Waxman not calling Edmonds up to testify. Maybe these are continuing operations and the CIA doesn’t want the Iraqi’s to know that the plans are big duds.
I am not someone who has experienced combat, but I wonder if your explanation (?) is accurate. I want to make it clear that I am not excusing these acts of brutality, but it seems to me war is a dehumanizing experience, or can be. These soldiers may be ordinary human beings under exceptional stress and fear, not knowing where or when they will be under attack and/or killed. It seems easier to think of them as aberrations or unlike us, but I wonder if the difference between these soldiers and seemingly ordinary people is they’re in a war zone and we’re not. So I’m thinking out loud knowing that I’m risking your understandable resistance and even hostility to what I’m saying.
I’ve also often wondered about police brutality and what might be going on. Perhaps there’s a parallel.
More like — and I stress I only list these here to save you the trip through all the links, I don’t endorse the truth of it because I don’t know:
Thanks Masaccio! I am always glad that folks are reminded about Inside Iraq at the McClatchey site. I read them constantly and hope someday to have one of the writers visit with us, one of our Firepups is in touch with them.
I say again “Post Traumatic Stress syndrome”. These guys have been in the “trenches” for so long they stopped caring. When you accept the first 50 or so dead humans, either you stop seeing them as human, or you just shut down and can’t function. The latter is not an option in combat.
Peony:
That’s an important issue. Groups like Amnesty have looked at torturers to try to understand the psychology and often, they are people like you and me. I also have never served in a war zone but friends who have served in Iraq and situations similar to Iraq but have trained outside the US are very upset at the lack of discipline of US forces – not saying everybody else is clean, in fact one of my friends always reminds me that we all have blood on our hands – but the toleration and the actual use of torture and brutality that has become all too frequent with our forces is not just “well, war is like that” And people do make choices, even in such settings, to act honorably – look at the soldier who reported and outed Abu Ghraib and I am sure many others. Or look at the soldiers who spoke to Chris Hedges for his Nation article and faced what they had done.
Even if we recover these formally normal, caring humans, they will never be the same. Their families are not getting the same spouses and parents back that went proudly to serve and protect the rest of us. We have not just destroyed the humans we have killed, we are destroying our soldiers and their families as well.
This is one huge reason for this “war” to end.
JohnJ – I think there is more at play. If you watch the youtube videos that soldiers themselves have recorded and posted as “entertainment” of them taunting Iraqi children etc you see a much darker story. PTSD is clearly involved in some of this but there is also a very nasty racism in play and a complete lack of respect for people of other cultures. Those videos are horrifying … horrifying.
Unfortunately, I agree entirely. I just want to believe that we as humans have progressed more than that. I guess that’s wishful thinking.
John J, you are so right when you say “we have not just destroyed the humans we have killed, we are destroying our soldiers and their families as well.” Powerful words because so true! say I with heavy heart…
Siun, big thanks for your ongoing Iraq focus.
Siun, I agree that people make choices to take the high road or not in war, which is why I qualified my comment that “war ‘can’ be dehumanizing…”
I think my original comments were prompted by seeing a tendency when confronted with the “shadow” side of human nature which is to “split off” and separate ourselves which leads to scapegoating which is a precursor to racism, violence, and war. Western culture which is steeped in the Christian tradition has not prepared us for looking at the shadow in a constructive way, that is, without projection. These are the dynamics that come up with a story like this one, as you probably are aware.
Re:
That has to be the shittiest thing I’ve ever seen Larissa put up either at her blog or at Raw Story. There is something exceptionally weird about the Sibel Edmonds psyop [as I’m viewing it now] that makes even normally sane and intelligent journalists like Alexandrovna act like blithering idiots. What the heck did she mean with that jumble of names?
The madness, the madness
Re:
I’m smiling. You are obviously not a Clinton fan. Nor am I. But it is meer wishful thinking on your part to suggest that Hillary exit the race. That’s simply not going to happen. She’ll take her delegates with her into the convention. This is how adults play the game, once they are as committed as Ms. Clinton is. She’s got far too many chits out to call things off before the convention.
peony – thanks for your comments tonight!
I had trouble with the link but got it at http://www.atlargely.com.
I’m with you on the wtf with the list … and share your questions about the whole picture. I’ve been queasy about the Sible Edmonds story from the beginning … just a gut reaction. Hope at some point we get to see it properly played out.
Re:
At this point in time the only thread I hang onto that the Edmonds story might be legitimate is that she was attempting to work with Rep. Curt Weldon to try to get her story out through a Congressional committee hearing. Not only did the FBI reinforce its muzzle on Edmonds, the “powers-that-be” in the GOP took an active role in destroying Weldon’s career in the House. It was a rare thing to see, but apparently Weldon was getting uncomfortably close to truths that the secret government does not want revealed.
-R.
Good points Ray … I think I rest in the “there’s probably something there but we may be all wrong about what we think it is” quadrant. Always open to learn more and assume a lot of things go on that are hidden … we’ll see.
G’nite for now!
Hasta la vista. :)
This behavior might be common, but it certainly isn’t what the American people want of their soldiers. It reminds me of My Lai and I wonder if their behavior is in any way directed by officers. If they’ll order Abu Ghraib, then why not this. We can’t trust any of them now and any odd event has to be considered suspect.
From your lips to God’s nose, though there and down in and around the lungs, back up and into his ears. Aren’t metaphor’s wonderful? :-)
Geez, it really kills you to think he actually means what he says. Whew!
Soldiers from any country devolve into thugs when they are subjected to unrelenting fear and violence. We may like to think that Americans are immune and somehow better than others but it just isn’t so.
Of course american soldiers are doing this. We did this kind of thing in WWII, Korea, Vietnam. Why not here? War is not nice, soldiers are not police, nor are they trained like police. The american Army is trained as a field force military. IOW, they are trained to engage the enemy in battle, and kill them. period. The reason the Marines are not being charged with killing 24 civs is that THEY DID NOTHING WRONG. They were following their rules of engagement and their training, which is to react with overwhelming firepower when attacked. Look at videos of what happens after an IED goes off. Shooting everywhere. Look at what Blackwater agents do when an explosion or IED or anything that they perceive as a possible attack-remember that many of them were soldiers in the US military. So they react as they were trained. And remember that the Army and Marines are trained as a field force military. Not regime protection, not force protection, but as a field force army. They shoot people and break things. That is their training. The kind of troops that should be in Iraq are military field police, and civil action. Not basic Infantry, not other skills like Artillery, Air Defense, Armor(tanks). Arty, Tanks, AD, do not have primary infantry skills, so they have to be retrained as Infantry while in Iraq, and have to be retrained in their combat speciality when they return to the US. What I just wrote is a big reason why these incidents happen. Lack of proper training, lack of the correct ROE, and the plain fact that our soldiers have little or no interaction with the local population, so also add in a whole lot of fear that each and every indig is out to kill them, and you will continue to get incidents just like this. We can not retrain our troops out of the field force mentality, our entire military establishment is built on that. And just in case you wonder if I know what I am talking about, I had 12 years in US Army Combat Arms(the overall career field) from 1968 to 1980, and was discharged medically as a platoon sgt.
OOPS, should be a reply to 8 twain comment, not 7.
please see comment #168(I’m new at this and clicked on wrong comment to reply to.)
Take that garbage and ram it spikey end first where it belongs. There are always people like you who make excuses for barbarism. As a serving soldier let me be the first to tell you that people like you make me want to puke.
Du
It ain’t genetic, RWC. It’s a result of prolonged exposure to a toxic environment. We need to get our boys and girls out of that hell hole now and start trying to repair their broken minds. I blame the design staff.