BREAKING: AP via MSNBC reports that the DOJ has opened a criminal investigation regarding the destruction of the CIA interrogation tapes. As LHP points out clearly below, Mukasey has some substantive conflicts on this issue — which raises a whole host of questions, such as the ones Glenn raises here, about the DOJ investigating this that ought to be answered, and soon. More news as we get it on this, meanwhile some exceptional analysis from LHP on obstructive behavior with the 9/11 Commission. — CHS
Today’s NYTimes Opinion section had an "Op-Ed" that is short on opinion and long on facts, it even has a time line of sorts. You know how I love time lines. This Op-Ed was authored by Tom Kean and Lee Hamilton the bi-partisan co-chairs of the 9-11 Commission and, boy, does it call bullshit on the Georges: Tenet and Bush!
A little background:
MORE than five years ago, Congress and President Bush created the 9/11 commission….Soon after its creation, the president’s chief of staff directed all executive branch agencies to cooperate with the commission.
The commission’s mandate was sweeping and it explicitly included the intelligence agencies. But the recent revelations that the C.I.A. destroyed videotaped interrogations of Qaeda operatives leads us to conclude that the agency failed to respond to our lawful requests for information about the 9/11 plot. Those who knew about those videotapes — and did not tell us about them — obstructed our investigation.
Well, THAT’s quite the opening salvo!
When the press reported that, in 2002 and maybe at other times, the C.I.A. had recorded hundreds of hours of interrogations of at least two Qaeda detainees, we went back to check our records. We found that we did ask, repeatedly, for the kind of information that would have been contained in such videotapes
Oops, did someone at the CIA forget that the 9-11 Commission kept records?
Beginning in June 2003, we requested all reports of intelligence information on these broad topics that had been gleaned from the interrogations of 118 named individuals, including both Abu Zubaydah and Abd al Rahim al-Nashiri, two senior Qaeda operatives, portions of whose interrogations were apparently recorded and then destroyed….Agency officials assured us that, if we posed specific questions, they would do all they could to answer them.
So, in October 2003, we sent another wave of questions to the C.I.A.’s general counsel. One set posed dozens of specific questions about the reports, including those about Abu Zubaydah. A second set, even more important in our view, asked for details about the translation process in the interrogations; the background of the interrogators; the way the interrogators handled inconsistencies in the detainees’ stories; the particular questions that had been asked to elicit reported information; the way interrogators had followed up on certain lines of questioning; the context of the interrogations so we could assess the credibility and demeanor of the detainees when they made the reported statements; and the views or assessments of the interrogators themselves.
The general counsel responded in writing with non-specific replies. The agency did not disclose that any interrogations had ever been recorded or that it had held any further relevant information, in any form. Not satisfied with this response, we decided that we needed to question the detainees directly, including Abu Zubaydah and a few other key captives.
In a lunch meeting on Dec. 23, 2003, George Tenet, the C.I.A. director, told us point blank that we would have no such access.
So, our intrepid Commissioners tried to go over Tenet’s head to get the info.
A meeting on Jan. 21, 2004, with Mr. Tenet, the White House counsel, the secretary of defense and a representative from the Justice Department also resulted in the denial of commission access to the detainees. Once again, videotapes were not mentioned.
This led the Commission to have sufficient misgivings that they included a CYA in the report:
So the public would be aware of our concerns, we highlighted our caveats on page 146 in the commission report.
So, let’s get this straight. At the President’s request, Congress created the 9-11 Commission, then the President’s own Executive Branch and its agencies willfully and "in your face mutha" withheld information and obstructed the very investigation that the President himself had requested.
If this is not a total kick in the pants to Congress and the American people, and to the friends and relations that we New Yorkers lost when the towers collapsed, I don’t know what is.
I don’t know if AG Mukasey can actually investigate this because of his obvious conflict of interest, but you know who absolutely can? And who should? Yep, the very branch of government who created the 9-11 Commission and gave it the power to investigate. Yo! Congress! Enough with the recessing already–get back to work! Or at least appoint a Special Prosecutor, ’cause fellas? According to the DOJ Criminal Resource manual this might be a violation of 18 USC Section 1505 and maybe 1515 as well. Oh, and then there is Section 1001, and…………………..
Well, you get the drift. The closing graph from Kean and Hamilton:
As a legal matter, it is not up to us to examine the C.I.A.’s failure to disclose the existence of these tapes. That is for others. What we do know is that government officials decided not to inform a lawfully constituted body, created by Congress and the president, to investigate one the greatest tragedies to confront this country. We call that obstruction.
[ emphasis in all quotes, mine]
Related posts:
- CIA OIG’s Wild Parsing about What Was “Depicted” on the Torture Tapes
- The Scope of the SSCI Investigation and Where It Leads
- Torture: The Five Criminal Referrals WaPo Doesn’t Report
- Log Dates, Details Shed More Light, Raise New Questions on Interrogation/Torture
- US Forces Linked to Afghanistan Prisoner Massacre, Says Report; DoD Investigation Still MIA





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LHP!!
Good news, however there is a potential downside. Congressional hearings might get put on hold now that there is a criminal investigation.
Seen this from emptywheel and AP?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..eheadlines
About friggin’ time!
Merry Durham-mas!!!
Are there legal grounds for prosecution for lying to the 9-11 commision?
Getting EPU’ed so I will put it here, West Texas Intermediate (the Cushing spot) is selling currently at $99.57. The EIA weekly report came out today and showed that crude oil stocks declined by 3.3 million bbls. This puts them just below the midpoint of their average range for this time of the year. Oil companies could be buying less now in order to push up the prices of their downstream products since their profit margins have been crimped by high crude prices at one end but insufficiently high (for them) gasoline and heating oil prices at the other end.
I still think that about $20 in the current price per bbl is pure speculation, indirect fallout from the subprime collapse. There is some awareness of tight supplies but I think the markets are only beginning to relate this to peak oil. In other words, the speculation happened and a rationale for it came after and indeed is still in the process of establishing itself.
What do you think of the guy who was appointed to head the probe?
And how long do these investigations usually take?
Already read AP, EW and HuffPo. All this stuff happened rght after I finished writing the damn post!
My next to last pargraph lists a few of statutes that may be possibilites for prosecution
Never mind!
Oh my, I need to stock up on the popcorn.
I wonder if we are going to see another round of the Abu duck and weave, “I don’t Recall”.
I know you don’t want to be rude, as this will probably get lots of Diggs, but the kick hsa to be somewhere… possibly the face? /proofreading
I am waiting for the professional progressive opinion of this attorney as well
:waits, eating popcorn for fun to begin:
I don’t know him. Believe it or not there a couple or few lawyers in the Second Circuit that I don’t actually know.
EPUed:
Assuming this article is about the same John Durham, he seems to be a career prosecutor with experience prosecuting serious wrongdoing by government officials, including FBI agents. So, it looks like this is not being given to a Bush regime partisan hack.
http://www.laborers.org/Hartfo…..-28-01.htm
we’ll have to wait then for proper evaluation
:popcorn:
Well,…. Libby took a bit of time. ANd it depends on who flips, who’s defense lawyer stalls for time, who Shrub decides to pardon…..
BOOYA!!!
:more popcorn:
For some reason, wordpress keeps eating it there was an “” that I keep putting in, that keepss disappearing. Maybe I should not have used the arrows
If they put the right career CIA offical under oath, Congress will likely get an earfull. I gotta believe that most of those folks are patriots and just as ticked as what’s happened as anybody. Right now, I’d bet the political hacks at the CIA are busy making sure congress doesn’t get anybodies right name.
The politicians memories are already fading…..
Boxturtle(Still no hope for impeachment, so this likely just another Jan Pardon)
Lest I forget: LHP!
I put this up earlier but it fits here. From my scandals list, this was not the only instance that Bush tried to dink with the 9/11 Commission.
The pile of sh*t waiting to be shoveled away by our Congress is getting woefully high.
Hopefully this investigation will be done or revealing all kinds of Repube malfeasance just before the elections in Nov.
Can W pardon someone before he’s even indicted?
OK, the wrong quote went into my reply to Marion AND
it ate the word “ahem” again. I keep putting the word “ahem” in and it keeps getting eaten. It’s not my usual failur eof proffreading, ti’s the website playing tricks on me
Is it RICO?
My hunch — that’s all it is — is that Mukasey went with a prosecutor with a reputation as
honest,
thor…ough,
me…..ti…..cu…..lous, and
care………ful, who
dots……all…..the i’s…….and crosses………all……..the……t’s……
and will pursue the investigation wherever it leads, relentlessly, honestly, and thoroughly, well into the next presidency.
BTW, LooHoo had a Durham evaluation on last thread. Don’t see LooHoo here, so will EPU it.
Perhaps the best outcome would be if the investigation will generate news for a year, but the convictions won’t come until after Junior is unable to pardon the miscreants.
Looks like it definitely is the same John Durham, who looks to be an ideal choice for this prosecution.
The fact that Mukasey made this choice has slightly ratcheted down my Schumer annoyance-meter. (This may only make sense to eCAHN.)
That’s what Ford did with Nixon. No o ne knows if it’s legal becasue it has never been challenged in court
please inform mizzzzzzzzzzPelosi,she might need a new table
Heh heh.
yup
Here’s Loo Hoo on Durham (93 on prior thread
Yepperoonie.
Indictments, that is. I believe charges alone (before trial and or convictions) can be pardoned.
Yes, didn’t convicted felon Scooter Libby’s conviction take about 2 years?
That’s amazing.
Without answering your question, whether or not it might qulaify under RICO, for purposes of avoiding jury nullification, I would not like to see a governmental agency described in an indictment as a Racketer Influenced Corrupt Organization. I would want to actually convict.
Starting impeachment proceedings would stop W from being able to pardon anyone..right?
Obviously IANAL, but the now past governor of Kentucky got away with issuing a blanket pardon for his entire admin, indictments or no, for fraud and crimes associated with the state’s Merit System (civil service).
works for me
i believe he can pardon anyone at anytime,i dont know if he can pardon himself
Here is a nice quote from the article I linked:
Sounds like Durham and our man Fitz have a lot in common, career wise.
well, we sort of know it’s not legal but we don’t know how the courts would find
as far as I can see, alito and roberts would think it’s fine so long as it were a republican that does the pre emptive pardoning
on the other hand, if it’s Clinton that does the pre emptive pardon then we can say it’s a lock unconstitutional
there is however the precedence Nixon set and even though it is not established case law it might be established as socially established
seems like this bunch doesn’t gather info to decide their decision, they gather info to support their decision
Even longer. Fitz was appointed 12/30/03. Libby was convicted in March 2007.
ive said this since,the Downing Street memo came out….the only way to stop an IranContra type misscariage of justice ,is to start impeachment ASAP
OT – via MyDD, apparently Obama is now advertising on Drudge.
Wow!
He looks to me like an over-zealous prosecutor chasing something with no underlying crimes. Swift boat him most rickey tic.
Mukasey named John Durham, a federal prosecutor in Connecticut, to oversee the case. Durham has a reputation as one of the nation’s most relentless prosecutors. He served as an outside prosecutor overseeing an investigation into the FBI’s use of mob informants in Boston and helped send several Connecticut public officials to prison.
I read up on it, and I see exactly what you mean.
you know, the right wing nuts are gonna go nuts and make rediculous claims that we won’t be able to gather information if tapes like this become public or the people that destroyed them are prosecuted
and we can put them straight in their place with discussion like this;
“who knows how much information was squandered and lost because these depraved minds insisted on using torture instead of the methods we know gives us much more valuable information, we could have cought bin laden by now, we might have been able to prevent the bhutto assasination”
turn it in their friggin face these sadistic morons
impeach Impeach IMPEACH
You know, I’m starting to think that if it comes down to a choice between Clinton and Obama (and I hope it doesn’t) I’d prefer Clinton.
Thanks. Yeow.
I’m also starting to wonder if Obama really wants this job.
oh ma gawd
is he now running as a republican?
what is WRONG with these people?
Obama is at the bottom of my list, Fern – has been for awhile…
He’s going for the centrist vote, you know the one between the far, far right and the far right.
nd there is this problem
http://www.latimes.com/news/na…..crosspromo
Reeks of desperation in Obama’s camp or simply stupid IMHO.
Marty Lederman’s take on ” outside prosecutor”
http://balkin.blogspot.com/
I started to think this several weeks ago. I am done thinking, and am very comfortable with that conclusion.
I’ve been there for awhile, and I’m no Clinton fan. Part of it’s “the devil you know,” but in that context, if you see the devil you don’t know advocating things you don’t like, it doesn’t take a lot of evidence.
Wonder when the scapegoats start queing up for the slaughter.
Like, destroying evidence obtained from “terrorists” has made us less safe…not giving the evidence to the 9/11 Commission so that they could make appropriate recommendations to keep you safe, has made us less safe. And…it all happened, 9/11, and all of it, all of it. Under Bush’s Watch!!!
Just like his mentor taught him.
A friend of mine with family in Illinois, still really likes him, based on that really nice speech he made way back when. And you can’t tell her any different.
Good for you!
FWIW, this is a direct quote from the Obama campaign on the Drudge ad issue:
“Someone is circulating a screengrab of an Obama ad on drudge. Even
if it’s true, it wasn’t intentional, the site isn’t on the approved
list of sites we advertise on.”
OTOH, the ads have been up for about two weeks, a source tells me. So I’m awaiting some further clarification from the Obama staff on this one and will let you know if and when I get it.
my first reaction was, “Wow! what an idiot!”
Good one! My brother-in-law actually said to me with a straight face the other night that Bill O’Reilly has very moderate political views. How do you even engage with that?
Maybe Obama has to cast a really wide net to win in order to off-set the bubbas that hate him for his color.
and DENNIS KUCINICH …has thrown him support
I think he is going after those folks who have switched from independent and Republican for this election. He may be on to something because there is a chance these people might buy someone who sounds like the kind of conservative they can no longer find in the republican party.
Why is this a surprise?
It may prove interesting to have a look at the list of those Mr. Bush will pardon before he finally leaves Fort Ricomagus.
he is way to dark for them…just sayin
True. I keep forgetting that.
Since Nancy’s table is so empty, perhaps she’d like some help setting it. “I’m” going to recommend some “peach”es and a “mint” on the side.
An unprincipled man.
because i really thought DK was the most liberal just listening to him
my bad
In my opinion, a reasonably progressive and economically populist Democrat doesn’t need (or want) to pander to those voters to win. If Edwards win the nomination, I believe that he could run in the general on a populist “it’s the economy and the warmongering, stupid” platform and win in a landslide.
OT, FYI – Rep. Lantos to retire due to cancer
I agree with Marty. This is being dressed up to mimic the Fitzgerald appointment, but it is not the same at all. However, this will confuse the MSM and maybe the public into thinking that Mukasey has relinqusihed control of this investigation, but he has not.
This is not like the PatFitz appointment at all
“Is it RICO?”
The short answer is that any entity or association-in-fact with a continuing existence and goal/profit motive (Beyond just the entity’s continuing existence) can be the basis of a RICO prosecution. But, the short answer is miseladingly simple. RICO has about 10 essential elements, lawyer-speak for major issues which must be proven. One of these is the proof of “predicate acts”. one must prove the two or more predicate acts – separate crimes themselves – done in furtherance of the entity’s racketeering existence. The predicate acts come from a relatively short list of crimes and, so far as I’ve seen, the crimes which may have been committed here do not fall within that list.
As to whether a government agency/entity can be a RICO entity, I remember a case from 10 or 15 years ago where the Office of the Governor (in Tennessee, I think) was successfully prosecuted as a RICO conspiracy for selling pardons (i.e., accepting bribes in return for official action). I do not think a RICO prosecution has ever been brought against a federal agency, ever. But, this is an administration of firsts, so maybe we’ll get this, too. But, remember, under pretty stringent guidelines written after Giuliani (and other prosecutors) in the late 80s went absolutely ape-sh*t prosecuting anything and everything under RICO, the Attorney General personally must approve the RICO prosecution prior to filing it. Mukasey did not appoint this prosecutor under the same provision as Fitz was appointed – this prosecutor is subordinate to Mukasey, not having all the powers of the AG but limited to this case (as was Fitz). Avoids the Appointments Clause challenge Scooter was going to try to raise in his case.
Is anyone else worried about this part of how Durham was appointed (from the AP article on the appointment):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..svJeGs0NUE
To me, if Mukasey is still calling the shots, then for all the reasons alluded to in the main part of the post, there is no reason to believe that this will be a valid investigation. Sorry to inject a bummer into the party, but I’m worried.
Well, he certainly sounded credible, and he’s smart, and right about a lot of things. It’s the reasons for his opinions, not the opinions themselves that are important in this case. Too much libertarian underpinning.
PLEASE SCREAM THIS
9/11 HAPPENED ON CHIMPIES WATCH!!!!he got MANY WARNINGS while on vacay
IMHO, Obama jumped the shark when he attacked Krugman. But I think a lot of more astute people saw it much sooner than I did.
I think Obama is a very shallow person with a very smooth delivery. So the key question is who are his advisors that they’d be pushing in such a rightward (aka “centrist”) directon?
Agreed. And I do wonder why more people don’t campaign to that side of the American spectrum.
So I guess Kean and Hamilton are finally pissed! I don’t know whether to say “Good for them!” or “It’s about time!”
IIRC, you are talking about Gov Blanton of Tennessee, who was convicted by the USA now running for Preznit on the R side – one Freddie of Hollywood Thompson.
thank you for splaining…i have a tendency to take peeps at their word….must stop that lol
Top story on Wolfy…big deal for WH….Bush in for the remainder of its tenure subpoenas and on and on….
Spin….the Fitz story…but Fitz won….case will take a long, long time….blah, blah, blah..
This appointment is not like the PatFizt appointment but is being dressed up to try to look like it. Mukasey is still in this chain of command. Durham, who if you beleive his press, seems to be the real deal ( I don’t know the guy myself)does NOT have the same autonomy that PatFitz had
The type of appointment does seem somewhat problematic but Durham himself appears to be a straightshooter.
He prosecuted John Connolly in Boston, the FBI agent who protected Whitey Bulger as an “informant” while Whitey was using the FBI to protect his criminal enterprises.
$$$$$ are on the right.
“The situation with Scooter Libby is precisely analogous…” legal expert tells Wolfie. WH will have subpoenas and grand jury testimony to deal with….
Couldn’t happen to a more deserving bunch of “folks.”
if you read bartcop…they are known whitewashers.im puzzled as to why they bring this up now
Nothing that Lederman says, even if true (Durham is Neither “Outside” Nor “Special,” Nor “Independent”), gives any reason to think that Durham will not handle this prosecution zealously and impartially. Durham is a career US attorney and prosecutor, and Mukasey is essentially a lame duck.
You really think someone like Durham appears to be is going to endanger his post-Bush career, reputation, and/or legacy by politicizing this case? And, as someone else pointed out (here?), there are likely to be multiple career CIA people who really want the truth to come out, and will participate eagerly in the investigation.
LHP, would this mean that Congress would need to stop (or not start) any investigation of their own?
I agree. Edwards will win in landslide if he gets the nomination. I hope Edwards will win in Iowa. I just don’t like what he said about weed. I’m tired of making criminals out of mj smokers. Its a hypocrisy that needs to stop. I don’t smoke it or cigarettes. Its just wrong for it to be illegal.
Silly me. Of course.
As another commentator observed, the president can pardon anyone at any time. Nixon, for example, was pardoned before indictment. I don’t know either whether the president can pardon himself. Rest assured White House attorneys are burning the midnight oil researching those very questions. I suspect that research includes how to present the manner and timing of pardons, and for what nominal and real reasons he will have wholly ignored and rewritten the current procedures on what standards and procedures ought to apply.
Rest assured, also, that the Oligarchs on both sides of the aisle, led by Kneepads Lieberman, will tell us that the issuance of those pardons was for the “good of the country”, that there’s nothing really to see, so move along now folks, ya here.
Yes, that’s my concern precisely. If he does not have the autonomy, then Mukasey is able ultimately to control what happens. Couple that with Mukasey’s previous commands for Congress and the courts to stay out of this and there is real reason for concern.
Ah, geez. What’s he say about weed?
Dubya can pardon Cheney, renounce his presidency and double dog dare Cheney to pardon Dubya as Cheney can be president for one day. Decider Bush/Protector Bush is gonna have a new job afore he’s done – He’s gonna be a big ol super pardoner.
It isn’t a good thing fer the country (morality pandering).
< <Dubya can pardon Cheney, renounce his presidency and double dog dare Cheney to pardon Dubya as Cheney can be president for one day. >>
Not so loud! If they haven’t thought of that already….
Bruce (The last president that didn’t abuse the power of the pardon was Carter)
Now that Mukasey has said there is basis for criminal activity, any interference or refusal to cooperate will be viewed as further obstruction of justice…just sayin’.
Impeach,convict,incarcerate!!!NOW
Legalizing MJ sends the wrong message may better represent a more accurate paraphrasing of Edwards’s remarks during a recent debate.
I don’t believe that has stopped them before.
teh Nixonian,no?
I’m not knocking Durham. According tohe press , he’s the real deal. ANd I agree with your “Mukasey is a lme duck” analysis.
However, there are lots of ways Mukasey can make it very hard for Durham. Making a case is hard enough when your bosses are supporting you, when they are throwing obsitcals in your way, and asking for lots of internal memos and stuff, it can just crush your effort.
Nixon resigned…
it will be teh refreshing to have a trial lawyer at the helm of the ship of state/fools
Mukasey? Isn’t this the man who was unable to confirm that waterboarding is uncool? If you want to show independence, appoint an independent prosecutor. Mukasey is no Elliot Richardson or William Ruckleshaus. He’s a political animal. I view Mukasey through the prism of John Mitchell. A hack if you will. He’s an improvement at DOJ over Gonzales about as much as Gates is an improvement compared to Rumsfeld.
ehe obstructed for many months iircp
iirc
Yes, but then…he had to resign…
Like many of us here, I watched the Watergate Hearings every day. Live. I see paralles in the Bush DOJ.
The view here is that Bush is more of a fascist than even Nixon was. ;0)
Especially after he was informed that all the Rs who had supported him on the House Judiciary and voted against articles of impeachment would vote FOR them on the floor of the House and that the Senate had mroe than enough votes to convict.
Right On Kiddo. You said it and I agree. Mukasey – not good. I like the name that the rude pundit calls everyone Bush appoints.
The difference is you had a Congress willing to stand up and say “Enough!”
Nixon could only fantasize about getting away with all the things Little Boots has gotten away with.
My provisional suspicion is that there would be substantial internal and external obstacles in Mukasey’s way, if he were to attempt to do this kind of thing. This suspicion depends on the assumption that there are enough prosecutors of integrity left in the DoJ who would tacitly or implicitly object to any high-level obstruction of Durham’s investigation.
What is the best guess as to the degree of infestation of Bush regime partisan hackfuckery in DoJ? Would there be enough career attorneys with integrity to back up Durham against Mukasey, were Mukasey to try to obstruct?
Ask youself. Is Roberts an improvement over Rehnquist?
We need access to the intended scope of the investigation. No doubt, the chain of command was a significant consideration in appointing Durham. Mukasey has limited who at DOJ and the WH is authorized to speak to each other about ongoing prosecutions, but that list includes his principal deputy, to whom Durham will report.
Durham, like (by all accounts) Fitzgerald, may run a tight ship, but by keeping the reporting mechanism apparently “business as usual”, the usual informal networks will keep whispering. The first big test will come when the president demands information and events require a reputable AG to say “No, sir.”
Even the White House Press Korps should keep pressuring Mukasey on how he intends to restrict access to and communications about this investigation, including those involving the WH. It is already obvious that several current and former senior WH officials, including the president and vice president, may be implicated, which creates a conflict of interest requiring that they be kept out of the loop on certain matters.
Given the stakes, it seems probable that the WH will try to stonewall or go slow, calling it “being thorough”, hoping that prosecutorial fever will be lowered in an election year. More likely, it will go up.
Dubya and Dick will not say “I am not a crook.” No one would believe them either.
Could be – I just remember it for the strange set of facts – selling pardons out of the Tenn. Governor’s office formed a RICO case. If it was Thompson prosecuting – that made no impression on me when I read the case (teaching myself RICO for work) back then, and makes no impression on me now. I’d suspect Freddo might well have slept through that one, too.
We all saw that he was photo oping with glasses and this report, and cutting brush, and exploring grassy knolls with H Miers on the 08-AUG PDB. To bad he did not actually read it or do anything about it.
Originally Mukasey has said he was going to turn the investigation over to Wainstein, but Wainstein probably has as many or more conflicts as Mukasey.
There is no doubt that FBI knew about the torture and very likely knew about pictures and videos. Lawyers at just almost had to have known as well, especially after the “extensive” review it supposedly did into Zubaydah’s information and capture prior to the Padilla press conference.
So if the FBI knew that Zubaydah or Binyam Mohammed were tortured, they knew that their declaration for the arrest warrant for Padilla was based on statments from tortured men and they have never acted to amend, withdraw etc. Not only that, they know that Padilla’s lawyers immediately raised torture in connection with the FBI declaration and so they know that any evidence of torture is relevant at that time, yet they knowingly sat on that evidence and did nothing to turn it over or protect it and probably even knew about discussions to destroy it – - and did nothing.
During a chunk of that operative time, Wainstein was either General Counsel to the FBI or Chief of Staff to Mueller.
It was ludicrous to have Wainstein (who was giving advice to the FBI and Mueller in connection with what evidence and information to withhold from a string of courts in a string of court cases during chunks of the operative time frames) to investigate —- what evidence and information was being withheld (by DOJ including FBI and CIA) and destroyed.
I’m not super convinced that any inhouse appointment by this Administration(is Durham inhouse with DOJ?) or any political crony outside special prosecutor appointment by this Administration will do anything beneficial and it seems more likely that it would leave you were we were left with Libby and Rove and Armitage and others in the Plame case – or more likely even worse off.
Nixon’s pardon was never tested in court.
John Dean has expressed the opinion at findlaw that a president can pardon himself/herself.
Even the most apathetic or cloying people reach the end of their rope eventually.
I was slightly mistaken. Thompson’s wiki
And here I thought it was settled law, written somewhere in stone, that the only person a president could not pardon was himself! Are you sure it’s not in the Constitution?
I like and respect John Dean. Bush forgiving himself. Now that would be a neat court case.
120 well, lhp said already a chunk of what I was thinking. But let’s give a specific instance. If there is a claim of state secret privilege, or clearances needed, or info that needs to be declassified to pursue claims – all of DOJ, under this administration, is aligned against the prosecutor.
Plus DOJ has already gone into courts and made representations, held press conferences for the American public and made representations, filed pleadings in connection with CAT and Bivens claims about DOJ’s knowledge of and participation in torture and production of torture evidence, etc.
That means all the liars are lined up to perpetuate the lies, bc otherwise there is personal liability. Or not. The other part is to have the “in house” boy buy into the “in house” claim that whatever a secret OLC opinion said, it left those who went along with it empowered to be torturers with no consequences.
And I think you can expect the same “limited mandate” issues that were at issue with Fitzgerald. Look only at the tape destruction – not at torture, not at the credibility of actions, not at misrepresentations to court – not at all the crimes by the in crowd.
I believe what is specified is that in case of Impeachment, pardon has no bearing.
yes!
It’s more subtle than that. It’s asking for a lot of internal memeos, it’s etting the bar just that teensy bit higher on quantum of proof before you will approved for indictment, it’s taking those couple extra days to respond to each request for whatever.
I have done public corruption cases, they are hard enough when you have aboss that begins every conversation whith “what do you need me to get for you?”, whit a boss who answers each request for assistance with, I goota think about how we can get that done, I’ll getback to you after the weekend, it could be maddening
Suggest Level V Biohazard Gear
;-)
By the way. In light of this investigation and in light of Ms. Perino whining about congressional approval of judges, I say this.
Not one more fucking judge should be approved by this congress for Bush.
Not one more fucking judge.
He’s already spread his cancer around this government, time to stop further attempts.
-G
My investigation and litigation experience is limited to patent infringment suits, so I will certainly defer to your experience and judgment. I do hope that Durhamn manages to run a legit investigation.
Ah, so there is at least something there! Thank you, I thought maybe I had hallucinated.
But that would be so divisive.
I agree with Lederman’s take, linked above, at Balkinization, that “The CIA Tapes Prosecutor is Neither “Outside” Nor “Special,” Nor “Independent”
He’s being appointed for a particular matter to be acting USA for the ED of VA. Start waiting for the problems to line up, including jurisdictional ones. And isn’t it cute how Mukasey keeps it all away from the SD of NY, where he granted the arrest warrant based on statements from tortured men and the FBI declaration filed there?
I don’t get any big booyah feel so far. But maybe I’m just too old to know what a booyah feels like anymore.
And the Bush administration was floating the balloon a few days ago that they were going to step in and investigate the Bhutto killing. Gawd.
Yes.
Nixon=piker.
Bush=professional
-G
For nearly eight years the Bush administration has grossly disrespected the legal profession. If Republicans are once again allowed to occupy the WH come next January, the pattern will continue.
I’ve seen McCain ads on progressive blogs (insert snickering here), and I don’t think he’s going to be getting much support from readers at either place. If there are ads for Obama up at Drudge, I’d probably think it was the same kind of thing, and ignore them. YMMV.
Sounds like the voice of much experience.
A digression from the point you’re making, but I wonder why the U.S. government is so phobic about MJ and psychedelics. My thought is that the “matrix” is most threatened by people waking up. As I understand it, a large percentage of people in prison are due to illegal drug offenses.
Dana Perino. The new Ron Zieglar.
and the “corrections” industry is big business.
can’t read thread so sorry if I am duplicating, but NYT just posted the AP story 1 minute ago.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponlin…..es.html?hp
it interferes with alcohol and tobacco biz as well as big pharma
good point,and puts undesirables in the largest growing biz in country….pens
I still think Mukasey is a phony and he’ll go into the tank to preserve and defend The Decider.
-G
It’s a little late for calling out something that everyone knew at the time was going to happen,
The presence of Zelikow on that commission along with Lehman and the ever popular “cover the intelligence community’s ass” Lee Hamilton made for a scenario like this.
This is something that will distract people for the rest of the year from issues like the failing economy and the continuing obscenity in Iraq while providing administration mouthpieces with the convenient ‘We don’t comment on ongoing investigations.”
Just another distraction from the ongoing criminal enterprise known as the Bush family.
Per Article II:
But there is a spectrum of opinions as to what that means. Does it mean that the president can’t pardon someone out of impeachment? Does it mean that he can’t pardon an impeached person out of criminal liability for the underlying crime? Does it mean that after he/she is indicted he cannot pardon anyone? Does it invalidate pardons he/she has already issued? And when does it become “a case of impeachment: at the beginning of the inquiry, when the House votes articles of impeachment, or upon conviction in the Senate”? All of these are untested open questions.
Bush will shut the investigation down if it becomes a problem. They aren’t going to allow anything out to the public, It will be swept under the rug for “NATIONAL SECURITY” REASONS. Every attempt at accountability of the administration has been stopped with the same excuse. And it continues to work for them
Yes. Impeachment is a political remedy, to remove the scoundrel from public office (in the executive or judicial branches) and prevent him from ever coming back to political office in those branches. That’s as far as it goes.
Apples and oranges. You can be impeached for non-criminal acts, viz. Andrew Johnson firing a cabinet member without the approval of Congress, such being “required” by a statute. Impeachment merely means that 50% plus one of the House decided to charge you with something they say merited impeachment, and 2/3 of the Senate said that, because of that charge, you should go.
No. As long as he occupies the office of President, he can pardon people. The power is plenary.
No (see preceding answer). Though, if I were going to be the President following Bushie and he’d had a pardon orgy on 1/19/09, I’d consider revoking them. I’d argue it’s also within my pardon power to revoke them (though the Constitutional text says only “grant”.)
Any time. Since he cannot pardon in cases of impeachment, he cannot issue one in regards to an impeachment at any time – before, during or after the impeachment.
“Largest growing business in the country,” another of the many examples that the country is in a death rebirth struggle.
One final thing – the fact that they’re making Durham acting USA for ED of VA – does that sound pretty much like they will also limit his scope of inquiry to why Rosenberg’s crew in ED were fibby to Brinkema?
I revisited the summary in the first page of Philip Zelikow’s memorandum to Hamilton and Kean. The 9/11 Commission apparently did better than I thought they might have in framing the language of their requests. I have feared that we might be stuck with “videotapes,” the term that—while commonly used in official statements and in media reports—is susceptible to convenient literalistic parsing. (Zelikow uses “recordings,” which is much broader.) “Information,” in the areas of inquiry, certainly covers a lot of ground, including anything material in the IT (information technology) realm. Arguments that recordings or other material information should be exempt from disclosure if in digital form should not get very far.
Since there is no low-point of legal cuteness Bush Cheney will not stoop to, I expect that we will see, in the last day of his presidency, Bush pardoning Cheney and Cheney’s staff, then resigning. Cheney will assume the presidency for an afternoon, during which he will pardon Bush and Bush’s staff. I am sure Addington has it all gamed out.
Wait for it… the dick/george double-reverse backscratch.
Impeachment is an open investigation of an alledged crime. The benifit is to publically air the dirty laundry. Why don’t you folks get it. Once out in the public view all kinds of stuff happens.
I was talking with a couple of Repub acquaintances last Saturday and this topic came up. The more Righty one couldn’t believe me and laughed when I said there were more Righty judges. He got red in the face and angry and was just beside himself.
I told him there was only one district dominated by Libs (the 9th out West) and one or two were tied and the rest were all Repub. He acted like I had lost my mind.
I know the Truth is foreign to some of those folks, so I just said, “Go look it up on the Internet. I’m sorry, but it’s true”
If they don’t know the federal bench is mostly Repub, then what exactly did they think they were getting with their Repub presidents since Reagan?
I get it so much I proposed it back in the summer.
The real question is whether the Congress sees a way to fit it into their schedule and whether they still think it’s pointless since Senate Repubs will just block any conviction try.
Interesting is that Mukasey apparently first attempted to appoint Prosecutors from within the “affected” Jurisdictions…but both of these AUSA’s recused themselves for various reasons (unstated so far…I wonder what they are). That meant Durham was low on Mukasey’s list, perhaps not even his preferred option; maybe the next on the list of those in adjacent . The fact that he TRIED to appoint Prosecutors with conflicts is interesting. I wonder what those “conflicts” were?
Definitely that…it’s pretty explicit in the Article.
That’s a bit trickier. Impeachment doesn’t seem to involve any penalties other than removal from office, denial of the emoluments of office, and the banning from future office-holding. If so then it’s unlikely that the Article actually blocks a pardon for criminal charges.
That, I hadn’t even thought about. But indictment (for crime?) isn’t a conviction for impeachment.
Would it invalidate the convictions of a judge? Would it invalidate the treaties or laws signed by a President? I don’t think that these are regarded as emoluments (personal benefits of former office…like a pension). Conviction of impeachable offenses would remove one from expressing the powers in the future, but not past decisions.
Good point. I suspect that it would actually be a “case of impeachment” once the House as a whole votes on, and approves, the charges advanced by the Judiciary Committee. Thus one could argue that subsequent pardons or acts could be rescinded if the conviction is upheld. But that would risk the laws passed by Congress and signed by a President. Would Clinton’s signings have been terminated IF he had been convicted for the Monica case?
After all, Congress is essentially saying that the officeholder has violated his oath. But would reversals only affect issues relative to the charges of impeachment. Would all pardons and commutations be withdrawn (even in unrelated cases?).
I’ve never heard of an instance where a judges actions, even those after they were impeached, were reversed or retried. That would be where the case law might be. But I suspect that the trials stood. But I could be wrong. But given that no President ahs been convicted it would be the impeachment trials of judges and other officials where you’d find the case law.
Yes Indeedy LHP. A make believe Investigation done has started, or has done started, whichever is gramatically best, by a make believe agency, your beloved DOJ, that has evolved into Unitary Executive DOJ. DOJ be diggin’ into DOJ, but without the IG’s office. Jist plain ole DOJ. No special counsel for the Bushies or the lawfirm of Addington, Fielding, Gillespie, and Mukasey.
Material Witness M.D. from the Bench Mikey–no he diuuunnnnnnt never appoint one did he? Now that’s what I call a real tough, thorough, no conflict of interest investigation. Ethics out the wazoo for Mukasey DOJ. Guaranteed to find out nothing.
In Watergate, we found out most of it because there was a real investigation.
But in Mukasey Waterboardgate, you ain’t gonna find out nothin’ ’bout nothin’ because Obstructionist Material Mike Mukasey ain’t gonna let you.
But today, in Waterboardgate, we have DOJ investigating, well um DOJ. It’s self introspection city in Mukasey-land.
But wait, isn’t Mukasey the sonofabitch on the bench in the Southern District of New York who jailed scores of material witnesses who had done nothing and knew nothing and cut them off from counsel for months? You betyour ass he is. And didn’t Mukasey, whose medical expertise consists of zipping his pants, once do a medical evaluation in his courtroom of a prisoner who was severely beaten and had abdominal injries from the bench with “Look’s Okay to me.” But no one asked Mukasey where the judge did his medical training, because he didn’t. He couldn’t get into a med school or stay in one in NYC.
Isn’t Mukasey the coniving sonofabitch who is dedicated to torture and the Unitary Executive Doctrine refusing to say what waterboarding is or that it’s torture with dumb compliant Senate Judiciary waving him through with Lahey now looking like the complete idiot he is?
You betcha. The most intense, and only meaningful investigation is going to take place on the threads of blogs likeEW, and FDL not at DOJ/FBI.
DAMN STRAIGHT it’s RICO.
RICO! RICO! RICO! RICO! RICO! RICO! RICO! RICO! RICO!
h/t to “Megaphone” Mark Slackermeyer