As Jeralyn says, there is an oversight hearing scheduled for the House Intel Committee on Jan. 16th. I heartily concur with emptywheel that any immunity deal from Congress for Rodriguez be very, very carefully considered and crafted to minimize legal ramifications. (emptywheel has been all over this issue from day one — if you’ve missed her superb coverage, I highly recommend reading through all of it.)
At the same time, though, what Marty points out here is a series of questions that deserve full and complete answers:
I urge you to read the entire report from Phil Zelikow (PDF), and ask yourself whether the concerted effort by countless government officials, up to and including Alberto Gonzales, Donald Rumsfeld and Steve Cambone, to assiduously avoid mentioning the videotapes to the 9/11 Commission — in countless meetings and in response to numerous requests — when obviously those videos would have been the motherlode of the evidence that the Commission was seeking, can possibly be justified. Zelikow wonders whether this didn’t violate 18 U.S.C. 1001(a)(1) (prohibiting the knowing and willful concealment of "material facts" in an investigation by any "trick, scheme, or device"). Even if it did not, is there any scenario in which such stonewalling would not have constituted utter contempt for the Commission — bad faith at a very high and sustained level?
Here’s the really amazing bit, however: "Because it was thought the commission could ask about the tapes at some point, they were not destroyed while the commission was active," said a CIA spokesperson. In other words, they knew the tapes were relevant — indeed, the most relevant evidence possible — and that they would be required to produce them if only the Commission and its lawyers somewhere down the line used the word "tapes," or "recordings," or "evidence." But they failed to mention the tapes. And then . . .
. . . as soon as the Commission issued its report and closed up shop, the CIA quickly destroyed the evidence, precisely because there was no longer any proceeding pending (and arguably no foreseeable proceeding that would trigger 1512(c)(1) culpability, although that is far from certain).
That is to say, the CIA waited for a window in which there (arguably) were no pending investigations in which the evidence would be relevant, and then pounced on the opportunity — the potential gap in criminal law coverage — to eliminate the evidence. Convenient, isn’t it, that there were no extant orders from the CIA leadership, the White House, or the Justice Department, requiring retention of that evidence? Such an order finally came yesterday — far too little, too late.
Maybe it’s my prosecutorial cynicism rearing up again, but you do not get that sort of coordinated, wholesale skating deliberately around a topic in that sort of slippery, calculated way by accident. Especially not over an entire spectrum of witnesses. Who prepped the witnesses on behalf of the Bush Administration? David Addington has a history of a strong hand in this sort of thing — was he involved in witness prep? Who advised all of these disperate Administration personnel, both past and present members at that point, on what not to say? And how not to say it — or allude to it in any way?
That sort of coordinated ommission smacks of collusion, deliberately staked out and eminating from the same belief that to do otherwise would lead to exposure of bad acts. And that raises the specter of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, lying to federal investigators, and a whole host of other related potential cover-up offenses. More on this from Jonathan Turley via CNN and Raw Story.
CYA at the highest levels, especially across such a broad spectrum of witnesses, takes a lot of coordination and a high level of motivation to keep one’s mouth shut, just on the "prisoner’s dilemma" model of analysis alone. Which takes us straight to Dick Cheney’s doorstep, doesn’t it? Is it me, or does this scream of his behind-the-scenes ass-covering machinations with the enforcer’s hand of Addington behind the wheel?
The above YouTube is another from FRONTLINE/World and Stephen’s Grey’s Extraordinary Rendition, this one with former FBI agent Jack Cloonan. And for even more on US torture policy questions, see this additional material from Frontline’s The Torture Question. I have a feeling there are a lot more shoes to drop on this…
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Hi, Christy!!
Hi all — I had inadvertently missed some edits when I cut and pasted my html into the post to go up. I’ve fixed it with my edited version, so please refresh your screen to be certain you got the whole post as it was intended, with various links. Sorry about that — am writing on the fly this morning while watching cartoons with The Peanut and I hit publish when I meant to save and edit. Oops…
One thing I mentioned over at EW’s hangout, is that scapegoating is an act that higher-ups do to lower-downs. Juniors never scapegoat their seniors ’cause they don’t have the juice.
Since Rodriguez as CIA Deputy Director, Operations is mighty high up on the food chain, there ain’t too many higher-ups who are in a position to scape his goat.
And most of ‘em hang over WH ways.
Good Morning.
I just read Larry’s piece and the comments. I always wonder why they decided that torture was Ok. I know I sound crazy but the comments over there echo this, I think that there is a sadistic streak in the WH far beyond torturing to get answers.
Something really slimy.
In John Dean’s most recent book about the depredations of the Bush regime, he points out that–because the US Constitution is such a short, schematic document–effective government requires good faith participation by members all three branches.
Any sufficiently powerful participant that decides to intentionally thwart effective government can easily do so, simply by refusing to honor the implicit de facto constitutional norms that have arisen over the centuries of our Republic, but that are not explicit in the constitution, laws, rules, or judicial decisions.
I think that this CIA torture-tape-destruction shit is just further proof that the Bush regime has made an intentional high-level decision to take every possible opportunity to violate all these implicit constitutional norms. This creates utter political chaos, which the Bush regime will use as cover to slink away and try to avoid responsibility for the grotesque damage they have done to our Republic.
MadDog — Yup, we’re talking at most DCI, DDCI, Negroponte would have been in there at some point, the Veep, folks at the WH and that’s pretty much it in terms of supervision. Pretty narrow band of orders being issued there, eh?
I remember first seeing bags on the heads of those they detained in Afghanistan. Right there red flags went up for me. And when I saw the same bags being used in Iraq, again, red flags. By then it seemed clear to me that they must be issuing these bags … that there must be a paper trail for their procurement and issuance. And, as a friend pointed out, likely they were being manufactured in Mexico by impoverished people and sold for king’s ransom by war privateers.
From bags on the heads, it was a slippery slope down to where we are now. It’s becoming clearer and clearer that these criminals knew just what they were doing from the start. That they set things up for a pretense of “not knowing” and gave the torturers everything they needed and wanted – so we could become a slimy, evil force in the eyes of the world.
Interesting, i should read. I’ve been thinking along the same lines; “US Constitution is such a short, schematic document.”
Dis de one:
http://www.amazon.com/Broken-G…..038;sr=8-1
But probably it took a lot of ink and many newly found word meanings to write down all the torture memos. Painstaking detail and abstractions, so everything looked like a “procurement” contract. The “procurement of information” in a bureaucracy. Disgusting and sick! Just like the Nazis wrote everything down in minute detail, using code words instead of “people” or “crimes.”
lol, i’m awful :)
I don’t read anything that isn’t in html or plain text.
Hard as it is to face these truths about our selected leaders, we must face them, and work to make sure this abomination does not continue nor repeat.
Benazir Bhutto, as quoted by her 19-year-old son and successor, had the answer: Democracy is the best revenge.
And in my eternal quest for synergy, I see a ray of hope that in the Nunn/Cohen-led effort to discuss issues [Cohen: I’m not interested in backing candidates…] there is revulsion on both sides of the aisle for where Bush/Chee-knee have led this country. And a possibility for alignment with Edwards “…the warrior in this battle” [per E. Edwards] to wage the epic battle to wrest government from the special interests to move forward in America’s [we the people’s] interest.
yup, that is why I don’t harp on religion as much as i could. it is a cold logical ideology.
All of which brings up the question: who among the presidential candidates is likely to prosecute the evil doers here? Who will bring them to justice? IMHO, of the Republicans, at most Ron Paul. Of the Democrats, at most Dodd and possibly Kucinich and Edwards.
Funny, I see it more as a wankerific attempt to work off a penance that so many of those named in Broder’s article owe: for abandoning the fight in Washington against the Gingrichification of the GOP, the Rovian machinations, and the nastiness all the way back to Lee Atwater and before…for cushy KStreet lobbying digs or for positions outside the Beltway. Walking away from the problems at a time when we needed them to fight the most.
Saying they’ll clean up the mess some 15 years later may be their idea of making amends, but I’d have to see them actually follow through instead of simply grabbing some spotlight for themselves.
I really think the argument can be made that this whole administration has used plausible deniabity, obstruction, classification, compartmentalization, and parsing to constitute a RICO enterprise all with the intent to enrich themselves criminally. (INAL)
There may be revulsion to Bush/Cheney’s policies on the other side of the aisle, but until some of those that are revulsed actually vote in a manner that does something about it, that third way movement is just a load of BS.
Ditto. All of it.
And for that reason I have said:
I’m not meeting any torturers or supporters of torturers anywhere but at the “Conscience Line.”
That ’something’ has a name: George W. Bush. Read ya some stories of his childhood ‘antics’ with pets and other small animals have ya?
Tell ya one thing folks….if this gaggle of criminal psychopaths think they’re pedaling off into the sunset on their $6,000 mountain bikes….
They are fukin’ crazy.
Especially with JRE in the White House.
Do you think Bush saw the tapes? Any of them?
I agree about that sadistic streak…
Sorry, my #19 is a response to Jim @ 17. Those are his words I quote initially.
Agree.
Dodd in an interview with Keith Olbermann said he would not favor prosecution of BushCo on the lies and illegal occupation of Iraq. IMO if the truth about the run up to the war ever came out, there would be many members of Congress and the media with some explaining to do. As an example look how the “trail of the torture tapes” is not a hot item. Why? Because Pelosi, Harmon and Rockerfeller plus others to be sure were involved clear up to their eyeballs. Simply stated, it is an exercise in mutual CYA.
Glenzilla on Torture today
http://www.salon.com/opinion/g…..index.html
yup
Agreed. Molly Ivins sort of got at it, but I think it’s even sicker than she portrayed it.
I think Dodd or Kucinich (or Paul)are the most likely to prosecute. I think Edwards (when he wins) will take the “reconcilliation” approach, that is the HUGE flaw with Edwards IMO.
Clinton or Obama, if elected, would start with their “new expanded powers” and keep them, that is their FATAL flaw for me.
I think this sums up the motivation, admitted or not. I see an opportunity to put that motivation to work for constructive ends. Trying to tamp down my cynical side that wants to shout-out “where the eff you guys been the last seven years?????????????”
Dodd said that? Damn him. Well shows ya how good MY powers of prediction are!
The evolution of bullshit:
* Stage 1: “We don’t torture.”
* Stage 2: “It’s just a few bad apples.”
* Stage 3: “It’s not so all that harsh.”
* Stage 4: “We don’t torture, and besides it’s necessary.”
* Stage 5: “Okay, but you can’t prove it beyond a resonable doubt.”
* Stage 6: “But the president didn’t even know where it was happening.”
* Stage 7: “Let’s put it behind us with a round of pardons and never do it again.”
Wow. I’m stunned. He was so proud of his father’s work at Nuremberg. In any case, I stand corrected. Thanks.
Dang wigwam, that’s a sobering summary.
Stage 8: “We’ll legalize it retroactively, to be certain we never do time.”
State 9: The Democrats will help legalize torture, and insist they had no other choice.
I think you just described how this thing may play out. I on the way to playing out anyway…
Maybe the fluoridated and passive mind controlled and conditioned human resource debt slaves will rise up and oppose certain policy initiatives of the Bush White House.
Following up on yellowdogD @ 34:
Stage 9: Self-help groups – “My name is …. and I am a torturer.”
Stage 10: Clinton did it.
lol, POE!
wigwam @ 13 – Somewhere in that little list “waterboarding is not torture”.
Quick question regarding future Presidents and future investigations/prosecutions of our current band of war criminals. Would a future president have much say so re prosecutions? Isn’t it now and in the future up to Congress, DOJ, and the courts?
heh
I agree completely and then there was Gannon….why was he there?
If it’s up to a congress like this congress, we are doomed…
Per the constitution, the president is highest law-enforcement officer of the land, with a sworn duty to see that the laws are enforced. Nothing gets to court unless it’s prosecuted, and the prosecutors are in the executive branch.
That said, there’s the problem of presidential pardons as in the case of the Ford/Nixon pardon. John Dean has said that it appears that the president even has power to pardon himself.
Wouldn’t you just like to know the tortured oath they took to bush?
Here’s a stab at it:
the whole enemy combatant things is all executive uno.
Dodd was interviewed by KO on his book about his father who was a prosecutor at Nurnberg. He was asked by Keith on how the crimes of the Third Reich compared to BushCo. He was not in favor of trials. I emailed his campaign and asked how the US could ever claim any moral high ground if those who lied us into this war were never held accountable. Never got a response.
Damn. We should try it.
Can someone remind me, how much time did Congress spend investigating the Clinton’s Christmas card list and the WH Travel Office firings?
Yes, we should. But, there is a certain irony in a 19 year old dynastic politician makig this point.
Fine. Make ‘em all answer. Starting with the things going on during this administration. Then let’s really examine Iran-Contra, The S&L bailout, and Nixon’s spying on his political enemies. It’s all related, a continuation of power grabs with brief breaks in between.
Open the ugly, stinking can of worms and get it all out there. Show the American people what we’ve become, then demand the media explain why they never discuss this stuff.
Maybe the answer is in “the Shock Doctrine” and the Chicago school. to ruin government as we know it and start with a clean slate.
With of course, a twist of sadism
John Edwards live in Iowa on CSpan!
new thread
IMHO, the majority of Americans don’t care enough to spend the time and energy to “open the can of worms”. Look at how many don’t even vote. Talk to someone who is not politically active and it is amazing at their ignorance on issues ranging from the war, the scandals, to even the farm bill.
Also, is the fact if it isn’t reported in the corporate media, it isn’t news. The majority still get their news from the boobs on the tube.
Need. Strong. Coffee?!
Thanks Christy
“And the master led the way
Down to the next pit, the place
Where the compound-fraudsters lay.
I asked the poet, “that one face
Pleading amongst the throng?”
“It props itself higher to trace-
Out your mortal form among
those here delimited by lies.
Fraud. Conspiracy. No tongue
Has he to respond. Bush was his
Name on Earth. Embroiled us in
Chaos. Violence. Ignorance. Please,
Blot him from your memory. Pain,
In compound-form, has visited
itself on him.” The master’s train
of thought…
Dodd has this in his genes I think being the son of a prosecutor at Nurenberg, which reminds me to read “Letters from Nurenberg.”
Christy, have you read this March, 2006 Zelikow PDF regarding Legal Policy and the “Twilight War”????:
http://www.state.gov/s/c/rls/rm/65947.htm
“I’m in.”