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	<title>Comments on: Combatting Nonsensical Pundit Wankery</title>
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		<title>By: Prairie Sunshine</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172324</link>
		<dc:creator>Prairie Sunshine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:44:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172324</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Shorter Unity Party: Edwards ‘08&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shorter Unity Party: Edwards ‘08</p>
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		<title>By: earlofhuntingdon</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172320</link>
		<dc:creator>earlofhuntingdon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:41:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172320</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Regarding the Times self-immolating decision to hire William “Bloody” Kristol, the Times seems to have fallen victim to Bush Syndrome: it fears being called womanly if it doesn’t occasionally do something galactically stupid.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Perhaps The Times has too much intestinal fortitutde: not content to stand up to its enemies, it felt compelled to give them a stick (and a national platform in an election year) to beat them with.  Perhaps the problem is more mundane: the Times outsourced its hiring and its editors thought they were adding Billy Crystal to its election-year commentariat.  Or, perhaps the editors fell asleep and the Times is now led by the pod people.  My bet is that the Times felt unable to compete and make money, and Rupert Murdoch bought two newspapers for the price of one.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the Times self-immolating decision to hire William “Bloody” Kristol, the Times seems to have fallen victim to Bush Syndrome: it fears being called womanly if it doesn’t occasionally do something galactically stupid.</p>
<p>Perhaps The Times has too much intestinal fortitutde: not content to stand up to its enemies, it felt compelled to give them a stick (and a national platform in an election year) to beat them with.  Perhaps the problem is more mundane: the Times outsourced its hiring and its editors thought they were adding Billy Crystal to its election-year commentariat.  Or, perhaps the editors fell asleep and the Times is now led by the pod people.  My bet is that the Times felt unable to compete and make money, and Rupert Murdoch bought two newspapers for the price of one.</p>
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		<title>By: TomR</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172289</link>
		<dc:creator>TomR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:03:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172289</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;—-&lt;br /&gt;
When I’m confronted with fact-challenged idiocy from the punditocracy…&lt;br /&gt;
Or what you think of the value of “factually accurate” or “honest” or “integrity” as words which are rarely if at all applied to what your newest columnist writes.&lt;br /&gt;
—-&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’ve been trying to get my head around how this happens, which ties into how people reason.  So, I will now channel George Lakoff, to the best of my understanding of his perspective.  George Lakoff would say that, if we continue to follow the traditional Enlightenment view of reason (i.e. just tell people the facts and figures and they’ll reason to the right conclusion), we are engaging in a naive and dangerous pursuit.  He says the Enlightenment view of reason is wrong, and false in every single detail.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To recap, the traditional (and wrong) view states that REASON is:&lt;br /&gt;
* Conscious&lt;br /&gt;
* Logical&lt;br /&gt;
* Literal (fits the world)&lt;br /&gt;
* Unemotional (emotion gets in the way of reason)&lt;br /&gt;
* Unembodied (mind and body are treated as entirely separate entities)&lt;br /&gt;
* Interest-based (it’s there to serve your interests)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The newer and more accurate understanding of REASON is:&lt;br /&gt;
* It’s 98% unconscious (no one understands their own system of concepts which affect how they reason)&lt;br /&gt;
* It requires emotion (even when/if you aren’t conscious that emotion is affecting your reasoning)&lt;br /&gt;
  Emotions are essential to reasoning and decision-making.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I would also add from my own study that emotions are essential to manipulation.  I distinguish legitimate persuasion from manipulation in this way:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* Persuasion uses the truth, or a truthful framing of reality, to convince a person to support an idea.&lt;br /&gt;
* Manipulation uses falsehood, false-framing, and skews/distorts their perception away from reality (i.e. delusion) to convince a person to support an idea. The person’s emotions are abused to coerce that person into supporting the idea.  (Most people don’t recognize when they are being manipulated.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;All politics is about morality.  Arguments for legislation are always based on moral positions, even for bad legislation.  So, one could assume that a moral argument for good or better legislation would be stronger than a moral argument for bad or weak legislation.  A moral argument is based on a frame.  A weak or false frame should easily be defeated by a stronger, more truthful frame.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Once a frame is activated (truthful or false), you can’t erase it.  You can’t get rid of “War on Terror.”  The best you can do is either:&lt;br /&gt;
* combat it with a powerful alternate frame (invoke frames that are already there with people) or&lt;br /&gt;
* you make fun of the original frame and add to it to show its absurdity.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If you merely repeat the frame and negate it (i.e. say it’s not true), you are actually activating the frame and reinforcing it.  It’s better to let it whither on the vine and not give it any more attention, unless you are altering it in a powerful way.  For example, in Montana being an “environmentalist” has a negative false frame.  So, Brian Schweitzer got elected talking instead in terms that have a positive frame with voters like “love of the land” and being a good steward of the environment.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Lastly, people perceive truth through authenticity and trust.  Lakoff discovered that 3 elements play into whether or not a person, like a pundit, is trusted by others:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;1) Does the pundit believe what he/she is saying?&lt;br /&gt;
2) Is the pundit trying to deceive his/her audience in some way that harms the audience or helps the pundit? (The manipulation question)&lt;br /&gt;
3) Is what the pundit saying true?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Lakoff said authenticity and trust are determined by number 1 and 2, while number 3 is least important to how people reason.  This explains why people can be so easily deluded (i.e. Saddam involved in 9/11).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;So, unethical pundits understand that it doesn’t really matter if what they say is true.  All that matters is whether they come across as believing what they say and that their audience isn’t picking up on their deception/manipulation.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One of the takeaways from Lakoff is put your issues in terms of your values and already established frames out there.  I think the trick is cataloguing all of the existing frames so you know what to choose from.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There it is in a nutshell.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;- Tom&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>—-<br />
When I’m confronted with fact-challenged idiocy from the punditocracy…<br />
Or what you think of the value of “factually accurate” or “honest” or “integrity” as words which are rarely if at all applied to what your newest columnist writes.<br />
—-</p>
<p>I’ve been trying to get my head around how this happens, which ties into how people reason.  So, I will now channel George Lakoff, to the best of my understanding of his perspective.  George Lakoff would say that, if we continue to follow the traditional Enlightenment view of reason (i.e. just tell people the facts and figures and they’ll reason to the right conclusion), we are engaging in a naive and dangerous pursuit.  He says the Enlightenment view of reason is wrong, and false in every single detail.</p>
<p>To recap, the traditional (and wrong) view states that REASON is:<br />
* Conscious<br />
* Logical<br />
* Literal (fits the world)<br />
* Unemotional (emotion gets in the way of reason)<br />
* Unembodied (mind and body are treated as entirely separate entities)<br />
* Interest-based (it’s there to serve your interests)</p>
<p>The newer and more accurate understanding of REASON is:<br />
* It’s 98% unconscious (no one understands their own system of concepts which affect how they reason)<br />
* It requires emotion (even when/if you aren’t conscious that emotion is affecting your reasoning)<br />
  Emotions are essential to reasoning and decision-making.</p>
<p>I would also add from my own study that emotions are essential to manipulation.  I distinguish legitimate persuasion from manipulation in this way:</p>
<p>* Persuasion uses the truth, or a truthful framing of reality, to convince a person to support an idea.<br />
* Manipulation uses falsehood, false-framing, and skews/distorts their perception away from reality (i.e. delusion) to convince a person to support an idea. The person’s emotions are abused to coerce that person into supporting the idea.  (Most people don’t recognize when they are being manipulated.)</p>
<p>All politics is about morality.  Arguments for legislation are always based on moral positions, even for bad legislation.  So, one could assume that a moral argument for good or better legislation would be stronger than a moral argument for bad or weak legislation.  A moral argument is based on a frame.  A weak or false frame should easily be defeated by a stronger, more truthful frame.</p>
<p>Once a frame is activated (truthful or false), you can’t erase it.  You can’t get rid of “War on Terror.”  The best you can do is either:<br />
* combat it with a powerful alternate frame (invoke frames that are already there with people) or<br />
* you make fun of the original frame and add to it to show its absurdity.</p>
<p>If you merely repeat the frame and negate it (i.e. say it’s not true), you are actually activating the frame and reinforcing it.  It’s better to let it whither on the vine and not give it any more attention, unless you are altering it in a powerful way.  For example, in Montana being an “environmentalist” has a negative false frame.  So, Brian Schweitzer got elected talking instead in terms that have a positive frame with voters like “love of the land” and being a good steward of the environment.</p>
<p>Lastly, people perceive truth through authenticity and trust.  Lakoff discovered that 3 elements play into whether or not a person, like a pundit, is trusted by others:</p>
<p>1) Does the pundit believe what he/she is saying?<br />
2) Is the pundit trying to deceive his/her audience in some way that harms the audience or helps the pundit? (The manipulation question)<br />
3) Is what the pundit saying true?</p>
<p>Lakoff said authenticity and trust are determined by number 1 and 2, while number 3 is least important to how people reason.  This explains why people can be so easily deluded (i.e. Saddam involved in 9/11).</p>
<p>So, unethical pundits understand that it doesn’t really matter if what they say is true.  All that matters is whether they come across as believing what they say and that their audience isn’t picking up on their deception/manipulation.</p>
<p>One of the takeaways from Lakoff is put your issues in terms of your values and already established frames out there.  I think the trick is cataloguing all of the existing frames so you know what to choose from.</p>
<p>There it is in a nutshell.</p>
<p>- Tom</p>
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		<title>By: ekunin</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172195</link>
		<dc:creator>ekunin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 22:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172195</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The problem with MSM is they own television and radio stations which the government licenses. Getting too critical of an administration can get expensive. It is not a good situation. It would be better if the internet developed journalistic sources and published something resembling the Times, but that is unlikely. Kristol is an a**hole for sure, but they also publish Rich and Dowd which justifies visiting its site and buying a hard copy now and then.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with MSM is they own television and radio stations which the government licenses. Getting too critical of an administration can get expensive. It is not a good situation. It would be better if the internet developed journalistic sources and published something resembling the Times, but that is unlikely. Kristol is an a**hole for sure, but they also publish Rich and Dowd which justifies visiting its site and buying a hard copy now and then.</p>
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		<title>By: PetePierce</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172115</link>
		<dc:creator>PetePierce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172115</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Yet HRC hasn’t been above making the usual glib bullshit promises–like a fix for the mortgage crisis (precipitated by a lot of phony realestate agents and complicit banks and allowed to steam roll by Greenspan) that may well usher in a recession.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In a number of ways HRC reminds me of her former early Senate Rival Rudy (”I don’t care if every sentence is noun/or verb 911 and I helped up the death toll during it by having no communications for firemen who went in and could never have gotten out”) Guilliani.  In the crunch, she loves evoking fear and terror.  It’s a fitting accessory to her &lt;em&gt;robotic, calculating persona.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I put HRC as way way less acceptable than her two real competitors, and Richardson, Biden, and Dodd who aren’t, but I’d much rather see as President. It has nothing to do with her being a woman for me at all. It is way overdue that a woman should have been President of the U.S. and ridiculous for people to fret about whether a woman can.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If women can be thoracic surgeons and neurosurgeons and every subspecialty in medicine, they sure as hell are capable of being President.  Can you imagine Dubya/Junya scrubbin’ on an AV malformation, or managing complex internal med problems?  I for one can’t.  You don’t get a pocket veto there when Fred Fielding and Gillespie want to fuck with Congress and confuse the issue of Recess Appointments and the *two Supreme Court “pocket veto cases” from 1929 and 1938.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&amp;court=us&amp;vol=279&amp;page=655&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt;THE POCKET VETO CASE OKANOGAN, METHOW, SAN POELIS (or San Poil), NESPELEM, COLVILLE, AND LAKE INDIAN TRIBES OR BANDS OF STATE OF WASHINGTON&lt;br /&gt;
v.&lt;br /&gt;
UNITED STATES.  279 U.S. 655 (1929)&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?friend=nytimes&amp;court=us&amp;vol=302&amp;invol=583&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;em&gt; WRIGHT v. UNITED STATES&lt;/em&gt;, 302 U.S. 583 (1938)&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I don’t remember seeing “polls” for what they’re worth pitting the 2nd teir of the Democrats (as to chance to win the nomination) against the mutts who are Rethug frontrunners.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’d be the most elated if Obama were the candidate, and very pleased if Edwards won.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yet HRC hasn’t been above making the usual glib bullshit promises–like a fix for the mortgage crisis (precipitated by a lot of phony realestate agents and complicit banks and allowed to steam roll by Greenspan) that may well usher in a recession.</p>
<p>In a number of ways HRC reminds me of her former early Senate Rival Rudy (”I don’t care if every sentence is noun/or verb 911 and I helped up the death toll during it by having no communications for firemen who went in and could never have gotten out”) Guilliani.  In the crunch, she loves evoking fear and terror.  It’s a fitting accessory to her <em>robotic, calculating persona.</em></p>
<p>I put HRC as way way less acceptable than her two real competitors, and Richardson, Biden, and Dodd who aren’t, but I’d much rather see as President. It has nothing to do with her being a woman for me at all. It is way overdue that a woman should have been President of the U.S. and ridiculous for people to fret about whether a woman can.</p>
<p>If women can be thoracic surgeons and neurosurgeons and every subspecialty in medicine, they sure as hell are capable of being President.  Can you imagine Dubya/Junya scrubbin’ on an AV malformation, or managing complex internal med problems?  I for one can’t.  You don’t get a pocket veto there when Fred Fielding and Gillespie want to fuck with Congress and confuse the issue of Recess Appointments and the *two Supreme Court “pocket veto cases” from 1929 and 1938.</p>
<p><strong><a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&amp;court=us&amp;vol=279&amp;page=655" rel="nofollow"><em>THE POCKET VETO CASE OKANOGAN, METHOW, SAN POELIS (or San Poil), NESPELEM, COLVILLE, AND LAKE INDIAN TRIBES OR BANDS OF STATE OF WASHINGTON<br />
v.<br />
UNITED STATES.  279 U.S. 655 (1929)</em></a></strong></p>
<p><strong><a href="http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?friend=nytimes&amp;court=us&amp;vol=302&amp;invol=583" rel="nofollow"><em> WRIGHT v. UNITED STATES</em>, 302 U.S. 583 (1938)<br />
</a></strong></p>
<p>I don’t remember seeing “polls” for what they’re worth pitting the 2nd teir of the Democrats (as to chance to win the nomination) against the mutts who are Rethug frontrunners.</p>
<p>I’d be the most elated if Obama were the candidate, and very pleased if Edwards won.</p>
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		<title>By: ifthethunderdontgetya</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172101</link>
		<dc:creator>ifthethunderdontgetya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172101</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Remember &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,918594,00.html?iid=chix-sphere&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the Killer Bees&lt;/a&gt;?&lt;br /&gt;
~&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember <a href="http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,918594,00.html?iid=chix-sphere" rel="nofollow">the Killer Bees</a>?<br />
~</p>
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		<title>By: TeddySanFran</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172098</link>
		<dc:creator>TeddySanFran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172098</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Shame on Hart, Nunn, Boren, and Robb for lending their once (?) proud Democratic names to this absurd effort in a year when our party has the most extraordinary field of candidates since, well, &lt;em&gt;ever&lt;/em&gt;.  The idea of reaching out to the GOP, which has created the mess America is in through its slavish devotion to the ego of Dear Leader — it’s patently absurd.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Ooops, gotta run upstairs….&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shame on Hart, Nunn, Boren, and Robb for lending their once (?) proud Democratic names to this absurd effort in a year when our party has the most extraordinary field of candidates since, well, <em>ever</em>.  The idea of reaching out to the GOP, which has created the mess America is in through its slavish devotion to the ego of Dear Leader — it’s patently absurd.</p>
<p>Ooops, gotta run upstairs….</p>
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		<title>By: GregB</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172094</link>
		<dc:creator>GregB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172094</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Damn immigrants!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;-G&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Damn immigrants!</p>
<p>-G</p>
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		<title>By: ifthethunderdontgetya</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172092</link>
		<dc:creator>ifthethunderdontgetya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172092</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The Wall Street Journal has combined a very good news section with a batsh!t insane editorial page for some time.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;That’s not Rupert Murdoch’s style, however.  See the NY Post.  All garbage, everywhere.  That’s where I expect the WSJ is headed.&lt;br /&gt;
~&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Wall Street Journal has combined a very good news section with a batsh!t insane editorial page for some time.</p>
<p>That’s not Rupert Murdoch’s style, however.  See the NY Post.  All garbage, everywhere.  That’s where I expect the WSJ is headed.<br />
~</p>
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		<title>By: GregB</title>
		<link>http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172091</link>
		<dc:creator>GregB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 20:00:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://firedoglake.com/2007/12/30/combatting-nonsensical-pundit-wankery/#comment-1172091</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Can we start settling primaries with Ultimate Fighting cage matches?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It would be much less demeaning.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;-G&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can we start settling primaries with Ultimate Fighting cage matches?</p>
<p>It would be much less demeaning.</p>
<p>-G</p>
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