(Welcome Daily Kos readers! You can register to comment here. Please welcome Bruce Levine and host Eve Gittelson [nyceve] in the comments — jh)
Here’s a sobering fact. The rate of depression in the United States has increased more than tenfold in the last 50 years. Unfortunately, the U.S. mental health system makes a major contribution to the problem by failing to confront the societal sources of despair and for promoting simplistic therapies of dubious value.
Because I’m someone incapable of getting instant gratification from the great American pastime — wielding a maxed-out credit card and buying-buying-buying stuff — I’m most interested in exploring what Bruce Levine, in his brilliant new book SURVIVING AMERICA’S DEPRESSION EPIDEMIC: How to Find Moral, Energy, and Community in a World Gone Crazy, calls the “societal sources of despair,” as he attributes much of our national malaise to a “not unreasonable” response to the pressures of corporate authoritarianism and “community malnourishment.”
Dr. Levine explains that “standard mental health treatments routinely ignore the depressing effects of an extreme consumer culture,” and it’s surely no understatement to label the United States as the leading extreme consumer society. What did our government ask of us after 9/11? To sacrifice? No. To spend? Yes. And we happily complied.
Since reading SURVIVING AMERICA’S DEPRESSION EPIDEMIC I’m beginning to understand the causes of my angst and why I periodically say to anyone who will listen, “I’m just not made for this country.”
The other day, I read in a New York newspaper that the sports announcer Bob Costas spent 11 million dollars on an apartment. In our country, this is an act that we glorify. Could someone tell me what this man contributes to society? Very little, I’d say. Indeed, maybe nothing. Even worse, when you place such profligacy against the reality that half the population of the planet earth lives on less than two dollars a day; well, to me, that falls into the category of “depraved.” Far from being uplifting, information about overpaid sports announcers in multimillion dollar apartments both depresses and makes me angry.
We live in the most acquisitive of times, in the most acquisitive nation on earth, and God pity those of us who fail to find spiritual, psychic, or emotional solace from the great American pastime, Shop ‘Til You Drop. A pastime which, not-so-parenthetically, has left the United States with an economy-devastating zero savings rate. But this is something for a different book salon.
I’m convinced that shopping/spending/buying is a means of dulling the intense psychic distress of being an American citizen in 2007 — nearly 2008. Let’s be straight, as Dr. Levine suggests, it’s not easy living in George Bush’s America.
I’m not a scholar of depression. Thankfully, I’ve never had to grapple with it, though I am very close to several people who struggle with depression every day. And I can tell you from watching them, it’s a daily battle. What fascinates me about Dr. Levine’s book is that it approaches the American epidemic of depression from an entirely new perspective. In an interview, he discussed the relationship between mental well-being and politics, which again is what I find most relevant to the psychic crises faced by millions of Americans.
Depression is highly associated with the experience of hopelessness and helplessness, and politics is all about power. In genuine democracy, people don’t merely get to vote but instead they have a real sense that they actually have an impact on their society. When you are voting, year after year, for the lesser-of-two-evils, neither of whom you support and both of whom are in the pocket of corporations and wealthy individuals, you don’t experience an y real political power. Politics is all about power, and depression is largely about powerlessness.
Some of you may know that I write regularly about our collapsed health care system on Daily Kos. There are many days when I read my email and become, quite literally, paralyzed with anger. But I learned something important about my anger from SURVIVING AMERICA’S DEPRESSION EPIDEMIC: anger can be a very motivating emotion. I remember my rage during the disputed 2000 election. I remember my fury during Hurricane Katrina when our government abandoned its own citizens. “The mental health industry approaches our negative emotional states in a negative way,” writes Dr. Levine. “Hopelessness, anxiety and anger are often treated like weeds on a lawn and these days this means using chemicals to get rid of them. . . .Although anger is not the most fun way in the world to get energized, I must confess that when I’ve had little else to motivate me, I have used anger to get a few things done.” Dr. Levine has convinced me that anger can be turned into a positive force for political activism. I certainly believe that my anger keeps me plugging away.
I’d like to end by addressing the intersection of psychiatry and pharmacology and what some call disease mongering. There’s a lot of money to be made from telling healthy people they’re sick. Yes, many people see dramatic improvements in their lives thanks to psychiatric medications. But there is a sinister flip side to modern medical miracles that Dr. Levine confronts head on: “Those given psychiatric diagnoses are increasingly medicated. And pharmaceutical corporations’ profits from psychiatric drugs are dramatically rising.”
The “medicalization” of ordinary life is rightfully described as disease-mongering. The medical-pharmaceutical-industrial complex is dramatically widening the definition of treatable illness in order to expand markets for those who sell and deliver treatments and drugs. There is, for example, the big business of protecting drug patents: Patents allow drug makers the exclusive manufacturing rights for 20 years or more before competitors can market generic versions. To protect their patents and profits, the drug industry “evergreens” or reformulates a product just before it goes off patent by claiming some new formulation such as a time-release version, or by combining it with another existing drug, or by marketing it for another “illness” or condition (“restless leg syndrome” anyone?), or even claiming a patent on an inactive ingredient. A minor change extends a patent and a product’s profits for at least another three years.
All of this is another huge problem in the United States. Spend one hour watching television and count the number of pharmaceutical commercials which conclude with “Ask your doctor if X is right for you.” More often than not, X is probably not right for you, but your doctor, who doesn’t want to lose you as a patient, will happily comply with your request for another drug for another disease-mongered illness.
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Paul Starobin, After America: Narratives for the Next Global Age
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Jill Richardson, Recipe for America: Why Our Food System is Broken and What We Can Do to Fix It
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes T. R. Reid, The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Bruce Bartlett, The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Richard McCormack, Editor of Manufacturing a Better Future for America





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Welcome Bruce, welcome Eve, and welcome Kossaks.
It’s a great topic, I think, for the holidays. A lot of people suffering from the seasonal malaise.
Hello Eve and Bruce. Thanks for being here today.
Welcome, nyceve!
Well, I’ll kick this thing off… Dr. Levine, could you tell us a little about yourself. You’re a psychologist, correct? Where do you practice? And (I will read your book, but haven’t yet)–in a nutshell–when you did start to come to the realization that you were seeing people who, while suffering from depression, were not necessarily candidates for treatment with drugs? That they were in fact suffering from a societally/culturally-induced malaise.
Bruce,Eve and Kossaks welcome to the Lake.
Hello. Can you comment on depression in the elderly and problems of overmedication when older folks are on multiple drugs?
Hi folks,
Thanks for this opportunity. I’m looking forward to the discussion. I’m a long-time sufferer that has never seriously persued expert help.
Hello everyone, this is Eve (nyceve), it’s my first time as a host, so welcome. My hope is that this discussion will be both helpful and informative. There were some really well thought out comments in the Daily Kos diary which I hope Bruce will address here.
Bruce, a couple of people felt that you are what they called fiercely anti-psychiatry. Are you “fiercely anti-psychiatry”?
The seasonal depression is a huge issue for a lot of people. That’s why it was brilliant of you Jane, to schedule this discussion for today.
Even without reading his book–only reading, so far, about his book–I don’t think Dr. Levine is “anti-psychiatry.” I think he is making the point that some forms of depression are rather reasonable responses to the society in which we live. Is that anti-psychiatry?
Welcome Eve. I always read and recommend your Kos posts. Thank you for the light you have shone on American health crisis.
For those of you that haven’t read this book yet, I can’t recommend it enough. Even if you don’t suffer depression yourself, it is something that touches all of us. A lot of lightbulbs went off as I read it. Though I have to disagree with Eve, when she says “I’m just not made for this country.” I think we *all* are–this country is about much more than consuming and medicating. Thankfully!
As someone who has suffered from depression and doesn’t any more, I recommend getting some help. Life before and after — completely different. So much better, but healing was almost a full time job there for a while.
So looking forward to this discussion, Bruce. You’re most welcome here, and as a trained clinical psychologist, I’m very eager to hear what people have to say. [Note: Though I’m trained, I don’t practice clinically, but do organizational work instead].
Hi, well we certainly have great reason to experience anxiety and depression, considering the effective fearmongering campaign we’ve been relentlessly subjected to.
I saw a comment over on Kos about Naikan, a Japanese non-medication form of “treatment”…I read about it, and it really has some great ideas about transforming your thoughts when you find yourself anxious, depressed, etc. Are you familiar with it?
What role, if any, does anomie theory play in the increased rate of depression in America?
Bruce will be with in a sec, getting signed on now.
Glad to be part of your salon.
Yes, I am a clinical psychologist in Cincinnati, Ohio. I’ve been private practice since 1985.
Many of my clients/patients who see me had already tried antidepressants, and had found them to be nonproductive or in some cases counterproductive.
At first I wasn’t sure how large that group — the group that antidepressants and standard treatments failed — was. Later, looking at the research, I discovered that this was quite a large group of people, people that the media, especially the corporate media dependedent on Big Pharma dollars, doesn’t talk about much.
It’s nice to be able to pick a different user id on a different blog..
As far as depression goes, more and more people are going to be telecommuting as time goes on and be in situations where it’s not just optional, but more mandatory.
I wonder how often psychological issues associated with being isolated for long periods of time might mimick depression. I certainly know it’s crazy-making in my case.
The ’epidemic’ is a creation of pharmaceutical companies, who have spent millions of dollars to create demand for drugs to treat conditions that do not require them.
Of course some people are really depressed. But the epidemic surge in depression is, I would wager, due to the influence of big pharma
Not only do their ads convince people that sadness is depression, but, according to US News and World Report, more than half of the psychiatrists who rewrote the DSM were paid, one way or another, by pharmaceutical companies
I don’t know if this is anything new but there is a industry which preys upon the financially desperate. They call it “credit card debt consolidation” and all they do for their fee is urge you to walk away from your credit card debt — that’s it — it makes you feel a little bit better about what you’re doing. It’s really despicable.
Hi all.
Jane and eve; thanks for all your fine work, and this discussion.
Long time follower here.
Would like to discuss “sadness” vs “major depression”.
I have the latter; black, dark, deep, numbing, maddening…
Under control with meds now, without which I’d be either dead or a basket case.
And welcome, Bruce.
Studying the country of Bhutan for our international Christmas Eve dinner, I learned of their government philosophy of “Gross National Happiness” instead of Gross National Product…we seem to be at the mercy of a philosophy of Gross National Greed.
Thanks for coming to offer your insights on this subject. What do you recommend for those who feel “at the mercy of…” government fearmongering, or personal stresses, or the season? Is SAD influenced by light therapy, Vitamin D?
Bruce, when is medication a must?
What therapy would you suggest to the family of someone diagnosed with schizophrenia?
I don’t label or diagnose myself as antipsychiatry. I have endorsements for my book from psychiatrists.
Here’s the problem with criticizing psychiatry institutions.
Mental suffering has had such a long history of being trivialized or viewed as sin or weakness that some get defensive when they hear any criticism of mental health authorities and their treatments. My experience is that they confuse criticism of mental health institutions with a belittling of mental suffering.
So let me say this VERY LOUDLY: Quite the opposite from trivializing or belittling mental suffering, I think it can be so horrific that I have spent much of my life trying to understand and alleviate it. I also have had severe periods of it.
I am not a Scientologist. I am not trying to persuade anyone to stop using their antidepressants.
However, I strongly believe in the freedom of informed choice. I believe that doctors have an obligation not only to be completely open and honest about the scientific value of drugs, the downside of them — and alternative paths.
I have spend a lot of professional and personal life with people who antidepressants and standard shrink treatments have been nonproductive and counterproductive — this is no small group.
Hi Bruce and Eve,
I have not read your book yet, will definitely check it out at my locally owned bookstore. I am someone who has dealt with depression on and off for many years. it does seem as the Bush years my depression has reached at times, new lows. It seems like our culture has become more of a “survival of the fittest” kind of mode.
I remember reading somewhere a few years ago that 10-15% of the populace are not hepled in any fashion by all the “prozac” related drugs. I definitely fall in that category, from my experience. What is your sense of the percentage? Higher? Lower?
Wow, Gonzo, could you tell us more?
I’m personally very blessed because I have what I suppose could be characterized as normal ups and downs. Usually when I’m a little low, a walk or a nights sleep solves the problem. I recognize clinical depression is a very horrendous beast.
Do you believe that there is a substantial population of individuals with depression for whom pharmaceutical treatments are appropriate and productive?
Is the dramatic increase in rates of depression all about Big Pharma propraganda? Or is it about Big Pharma and other transformations in society?
There is no doubt that that there has been a dramatic increase in Americans being diagnosed with depression and a dramatic increase in Americans feeling a need to use antidepressants. For example, in 1985, before the Prozac marketing blitz, antidepressants were an infrequently used drug –a $250 million a year industry. Today, antidepressants are now the most prescribed drug in the U.S., a $12-13 billion a year industry.
The question is — why such a dramatic increase?
My sense is that there are several reasons for these escalating rates, but I believe that there are two primary forces.
First, due to the power of Big Pharma — via not only advertising to the general public but also the power to influence healthcare professionals — increasing number of people who may have been just passing though a stretch of depression symptoms, become identified as having the “disease of depression” — and in many cases, told it is not a temporary state but something like diabetes that they have to medicate for life.
Second, there are major societal and cultural transformations that have DECREASED community, autonomy, meaningfulness, and resiliency — and other antidotes to depression You can see that in many ways, most notably in the cross-cultural studies that I talk about in my book.
I’m curious about the “anti-psychiatry” theme and what seems to be: a.) a stereotypical distrust of them, and b.) that they over-prescribe meds. Is this fact-based at all?
Having lived with a bipolar/manic depressive mother in the 70’s when mental illness was something noone wanted to discuss and prozac and that was just about all they had to offer I’ve seen the darkness up close. And, YES, the drugs helped immensely!
I am now married to a pyschiatrist who has worked in public mental health where patients do, in fact, beg for meds, but now works privately with patients of her choosing. She uses meds but also therapy. With the holidays, let me just say, she had one hell of a month and ended up sick herself for the past 2 weeks.
Here’s what someone said in the Daily Kos diary.
Would you also say that antidepressants are bandaid for a society that doesn’t offer adequate treatment of the root causes of depression? It seems like a lot of people do find some relief in them, but no cure.
Do you take a stab at defining “a world gone crazy” in your book? I mean the part of the world gone crazy that you think puts individuals under envionmental pressures that effect our mental health.
Like the Internet. Like what we’re doing right here–pretending to some sort of intimacy when in fact this couldn’t be further from the truth. It’s faux-community, pseudo-intimacy at best… but it’s what’s passes for community these days. And with very few voices on the other side…
I do too. Eve’s posts on dkos are among the best on the site.
OK, that makes sense. I didn’t mean to say that the ONLY reason for the increase was big pharma…..
I think there’s also a lot to the ’paradox of choice’ and to the quotation (I forget the source) ”To be content with little is difficult; to be content with much, impossible”
While some people will praise their antidepressants, that’s true for any treatment.
However, in a scientific sense, the latest research shows that antidepressants are about as effective as sugar pill placebos or no treatment at all
I certainly don’t question people’s personal stories about their antidepressant drug helpfulness. What actually surprised me is how many people don’t find success with antidepressants and how badly these antidepressants fare when pitted against placebos — even in drug company dice-loaded experiments.
For example, one study that received a lot of coverage was done by University of Connecticut psychology professor Irving Kirsch and his research team. It was an analysis of 47 studies that had been sponsored by drug companies on Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor, Celexa, and Serzone. Many of these studies had not been published but all had been submitted to the FDA, so Kirsch used the Freedom of Information Act to gain access to the data. Kirsch discovered that in the majority of the trials, the antidepressant failed to outperform a sugar pill placebo
We know that even sugar pills help roughly from 25 to 35 percent of people (depending on study criteria), but that’s about the same percentage that report remission of symptoms with antidepressants.
And certainly any kind of psychotropic drug (drugs that effect neurotransmitters such as serotonin, epinephrine, dopamine. . . antidepressants, illegal drugs are psychotropic) are going to have people advocating for it.
Actually, there was a study done by Johns Hopkins researchers, giving psilocybin, the active ingredient in “sacred mushrooms” to a group of subjects –and 79 percent of these people, two months later, reported significant increases in well-being and life satisfaction. Oh yeah,like SSRIS (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors such as Prozac,Paxil, Zoloft, etc, psilocybin also enhances serotoin.
Thanks for being here nyceve and Dr. Levine.
Nyceve I nodded my head in agreement with your entire introduction, particularly the depravity of our consumer culture.
And Dr. Levine I really agree with your idea that anger can be valueable and useful, and, let’s face it, in our current culture, well justified. I try not to be taken over by anger, but it is hard not to get royally pissed off when looking around at the state of the world. I think part of the reason so many more people are feeling depressed is that we are screwing up here as a species, causing great harm; and denial is no longer working.
FWIW my own experience with depression it was drugs and talk therapy that helped. I don’t think either one of them would have done it alone. Drugs stopped the physical reactions I would get from being depressed. Talk therapy helped me to understand that my own opinion of my value was the only thing that mattered. Chasing the neighbor, cousin, co-workers etc. vision of success is a road to disaster. That was very important in this new consumer driven world.
Eve,
I never miss your diaries. The present post goes well with Robert Frank’s latest book, ‘Falling Behind’, which fingers inequality as a source of unhappiness. This is separate from but adds to, the depression caused by a sense of powerlessness. I’m not personally prone to depression, but the one thing that would drive me over the brink would be that sense of powerlessness I had when the Supreme Court invalidated the 2000 election. It was all there plain and simple. This country is in bad shape.
One more thing: I think the intense religiosity we have seen over the past two decades is a response to the widespread sense of powerless and depression. I don’t recall anything like it when I was growing up 50 years ago. We were churchified, of course, but it wasn’t or at least didn’t seem as oppressive as it does today. People had other outlets to express their sense of social solidarity.
Mahalo, Dr Levine for being here today! When I was stationed overseas, I had two friends commit suicide, one survived, the other didn’t… Both events transpired during the Holidays, separate years, but it is a very auspicious time for service members to attempt suicide… I feel DoD has never addressed the issue appropriately, any thoughts on it?
A world gone crazy–where shall we start? How about the decimation of community and social support?
We know that depression is highly associated/correlated with loneliness and isolation. We also know — and this is an area that social scientists can actually quantify — that Americans have fewer people in their lives and spend less time with them than they did fifty years ago. A great book — though depressing — on this topic is by the sociologist Robert Putnam called Bowling Alone, which I devote a subchapter to in Surviving America’s Depression Epidemic.
Putnam shows, through many studies, that Americans have fewer friend and spend less time with them, less contact with neighbors, less connected with co-workers, and in every conceivable area of life have less of what he calls “social capital,” his term for face-to-face social connectedness.
So we have increasing depression rates, we know that depression is highly associated with social isolation, and we know that Americans are increasingly isolated.
While electronic-relationships are better –maybe– than no relationships at all, my sense is that e-relationships are not anywhere near as power antidotes to depression as satisfying face-face relationships.
Postpartum depression occurs in 10 to 20 percent of women in the United Kingdom and the United States but is considered rare in China, Fiji, and some African populations, and researchers concluded that the key antidote to postpartum depression is structured social supports after childbirth.
Of course, there are other social and cultural transformations that I talk about in my book, many of them are more difficult to quantify but just as important in resulting in depression.
Isn’t it also the case that we were drastically under-diagnosing those with mental illness, that the stats show it effects about 20% of the population? Thus, as mental health begins to achieve equality with the other medical professions (and it hasn’t yet), and a more thorough understanding scientifically, we of course, would see a big increase in the diagnosis.
Bruce, I’m sure you know about Risperadal–it’s both a killer and a lifesaver, I suppose. But the side effects are brutal–is the cure worse than the disease?
Bruce,
Is depression one illness?
Or is “depression” a label used like the label “automobile,” to describe different conditions that have certain macro features in common?
Or is it something else?
I trying for some sort of definition.
From personal experience, I don’t think it’s a matter of you know it if you’ve got it.
Eve, thanks so much for the heads up on dkos. I appreciate all the work you’ve done on health care.
Bruce, thanks for being here. I’d like to ask you, do you believe that diet has a large impact on depression? As someone who has struggled with unpredictable chemistry (and a family history of some of the big stuff), I’ve tried a number of ways of managing myself. One thing that was more recently recommended and has been surprisingly impactful was removing sugar and caffeine from my diet. Can you tell me your thoughts on this? It makes me wonder if the increase in depression coming with an increase in obesity and consumption of sugar (holy corn syrup!) are somehow connected…
Thank you!
Thanks snowbird, I only wish I could wave a magic wand and make all the hurt disappear.
GREAT stuff. Thank you.
Correct! This “chat” is getting me depressed–because it isn’t–not really. No one’s fault, but it simply isn’t possible to follow any coherent conversation or line of thought or inquiry. Dr. Levine, you jump in every so often with a very interesting response or idea. But, in the end, it is enough to drive a sane person mad… I imagine, also, that sites I have nothing to do with, like Facebook and MySpace, are a technologically advanced and highly vicious form of high school, i.e., people are judging themselves based on how many “friends” they have on these sites. Who are, of course, not friends at all.
I know this thread is more important than this but,in my opinion, the statement about Bob Costas was totally irrelevant to this important topic.
NEW YORK (AP) — While some cable TV hosts are making their living off the Natalee Holloway case this summer, Bob Costas is having none of it.
Costas, hired by CNN as an occasional fill-in on “Larry King Live,” refused to anchor Thursday’s show because it was primarily about the Alabama teenager who went missing in Aruba. Chris Pixley filled in at the last minute.
“I didn’t think the subject matter of Thursday’s show was the kind of broadcast I should be doing,” Costas said in a statement. “I suggested some alternatives but the producers preferred the
topics they had chosen. I was fine with that, and respectfully declined to participate.”
Not so irrelevant. Eve was simply trying to make the point that we lionize people who are financially able to purchase $11 million apartments, thereby adding to the toxic stew that is making many of us ill on its fumes!
I agree. My ex-wife had a serious bout with depression and it certainly seemed like the seratonin uptake inhibitors helped when nothing else did.
eve, et al;
I started feeling depressed when I was about 21, combined with bouts of mania and uncontrolable anger. I self-medicated with marijuana for about thirty years which, when I could get it, worked sort of well. Over the years, things got gradually worse and worse. Because of “anger issues”, I eventually became unemployable in our small town, so we moved to the big city in ‘94. Supply problems as well as anecdotes (and a nice medical insurance plan supplied when my dear wife went into grad school) inspired me to try psychiatry. My first night with an SSRI was like that place in the Wizard of Oz where the movie goes from black and white to color. Subsequent therapy brought a variety of drugs over the years and gradually I got better and better, though I’m dependent upon my pharmacist quite a bit. I now own a business and am quite happy, though I worry about the long term effects of all this medication.
For me, depression was a black hole filled with nightmares and anger. Nothing was fun or good, food had no taste, colors no zing, music no harmony; all was dark and grey, and angry, angry, angry. “Sadness” had little or no part in it. I got sad when one of our dogs died, or when I got fired. But I was angry and broody all the time. Whole foods, light therapy, meditation, yoga, excersize, cocaine, marijuana,… I tried it all, to little or no effect. Except marijuana short circuited the anger quite well… the blackness remained.
I’m interested in hearing from anyone about major depression, whole-body, debilitating, suicide-inducing, black-hole stuff.
First let me say, sorry that I am not responding to everyone.
Let me talk about a couple of the reasons why the this time of year gets so many people bummed out,some depressed, some even suicidal.
There are many reasons. Perhaps I can talk later about the relationship between consumerism and depression.
The source of depression is overwhelming pain. Depression — like substance abuse, compulsive gambling, shopping, etc– is a “strategy” to shut down overwhelming pain. If one becomes habituated to a shutdown strategy (rather than healing or resolving the source of that pain), one needs increasingly more of that strategy–more depression, more booze, more drugs.
Much of human pain has to do with relationships and loneliness. So during this time of year, people who are all alone can feel even more pained. Or, in contrast, people who have toxic relationships with family but feel they “have” to spend time with them can feel pained.
I see this all the time in my practice.
I found it very relevant because at least for me, comparing myself to other people had a lot to do with the downward spiral. All of that stuff the media pushes in your face every day doesn’t help.
By saying, “what does this man contribute to society”? Sorry, I don’t buy it but I’m not going to try to hijack the thread.
Everyone, please remember that Book Salon threads are exclusively for the topic at hand, specifically related to the book.
Thanks!
Other conversations can continue in the thread below this one.
Eve happy to see you at the lake… as a SAD (seasonal affective disorder)suffer who lived in the NW for 19 years and moved to Arizona around the time they started treating it with light therapy. I get a little cranky when it rains more than 3 days in a row but just living here has cured me.
And I agree about social networks. Families are more scattered and splintered, the gated communities, it seems that everyone works very hard to stay our of each others lives. With my recent diagnosis of cancer, my three young adults moving out of the home and major surgery all in a couple of months has brought this all home. Just this month I started having the kids over one night a week for dinner and social time. It has helped us all.
Personally, the interaction here at the Lake has been very healing and supportive. I cannot imagine going through the last few months with out it. Who needs drugs when you have FDL?
Raven, I love you, but I was making the point that sports announcers get paid mega bucks, but doctors get 20 cents on the dollar from the scum insurers for saving lives.
Our societal priorities are seriously fucked up.
Oh yeah, Costas is a hero because he didn’t want to talk about Natalee Hollaway.
I’ve seen the antidepressants work for a few of my friends. Also a few for the many patients i work with as a pharmacy technician. But majority of them don’t get decent counseling or support of any kind. Just scripts written like clockwork. I think that’s a lot of the problem too, Dr Levine.
Today’s society in the US definitely makes it harder to find that social support one needs. That is, unless you fight tooth and nail to have some semblance of it.
What do you (or anyone else here, for that matter) see as the main underlying forces/changes promoting isolation/loneliness in modern American society? I think some obvious candidates include decreasing economic security, increasing general paranoia (how many here are of the generations who were told “don’t talk to strangers” while growing up?), and alienation from or outright destruction of civic institutions at the local level, but I’m certainly open to suggestions.
I am interested in the relationship between consumerism, debt, and depression. We are all encouraged to buy, buy, buy, but when you rack up debt on credit cards with 23% interest rates you can climb into a black hole from which you can’t escape.
After our first child was born, I started waking up to what I called “the black hole of Calcutta.” It felt like a hole; and my color perception was way off. I saw maroon as dark blue. I thought I had the flu.
You mentioned above some of the experimental evidence comparing anti-depressants to placebo.
Could you describe the experimental evidence that the source of depression is overwhelming pain, and that depression is a strategy to shut down that pain? What is the evidence that supports this understanding of depression, as opposed to the view that depression is a primary mental/neural disorder, with overwhelming pain as one of its symptoms?
Katy, I think that’s a great idea. In college we used to do “hot food night” every Sunday night. Anyone who wanted a hot, simple meal knew they could stop by. I miss that type of community we had.
I feel immensely better now that I’m going into an office every day, rather than telecommuting. I don’t always like getting up and getting dressed, but I love the direct interaction with my colleagues–you don’t have the same experience by phone or email. There were other issues beyond telecommuting, but we’ll leave it at that.
They don’t get counseling or talk therapy because health insurance won’t pay for it–or very little of it. So prescriptions get written.
Thanks for the thread so far .. it’s been very interesting. I find myself not wanting to say much for fearing to sound like an “anti-psychiatry” type.
But then I recognize in the mirror a lot of what I see here.
Strangely what I haven’t seen is people who have been prescribed anti-depressents, found that they worked just fine, then found that the effect was itself (which was the GOAL!!) almost toxic.
I was prescribed Paxil after experiencing deaths in my family about 10 years ago. I stopped taking it because to me, it worked — it worked way too well. I found situations that should upset me badly, I was taking with an unaccustomed equanamity .. to the effect of feeling being turned into a “happy robot”.
Hi Dr. Levine,
I certainly understand depression and this time of year of ‘consumerism’. I stressed each holiday season over being able to buy gifts and then worrying that I wasn’t able to buy nice enough gifts. I solved the problem a few years ago. I simply stopped the commercial aspect of the holiday. No gifts (well, except for young children). I asked no one to give me a gift either, but if they felt compelled, to make a small donation to a charity. It’s the season of “giving” not the season of “buying”
Some of my relatives called me a grinch, but must understand and accepted it. And it really makes the holidays stress free overall. :)
Can’t wait to read your book!
My son is BP1 w/ADHD, and, his meds have brutal side effects, in fact my son spent Xmas after suffering a Grand Mal seizure because my son’s Pyschiatrist ordered me to stop his Trileptal cold turkey, 1800 mg’s worth…
Yeah Smarty. Or if it is covered? Only a limited amount of sessions per yer(or even a lifetime) are covered at all. It’s a really nasty little game they play with those that truly need the help.
I can handle most of my own ups and downs, but i’d really like the idea of knowing i’d have help readily available when i do hit rock bottom.(I have once or twice, but i also had Employment Asisstance(sp?) available at that point. I do in this current job too, but not many have that option–which rankles me to no end.
The issue of whether or not depression is an illness is a very controversial and inflamatory one.
Some people believe that if you don’t label something as a disease, you are minimizing it. But war and poverty are horrible things–but they are not diseases, unless you define disease as something really bad.
The real problem of diseasing problematic emotional/behavioral states is that we, as a society, “medicalize” these conditions.
This medicalization results in several problems.
First, it diverts us from examining the social and cultural sources of our despair.
Second, it keeps us from trying to help one another. There are skills that doctors have, but many of the skills required to help transform depression are not taught in medical or graduate school, and it’s my experience that doctors are not especially talented in the crafts of morale buildilng and healing.
Hi, ART45 I’m no Dr. Levine! But I will comment that I didn’t really recognize my chronic depression for what it was until a psychologist gently brought me along and educated me on the subject. Ever since that time, I’ve been instantly aware of when I’m sliding into that pit of blackness. Sometimes I’ve even been able to send myself there deliberately. After all, it was such a “familiar” place for me. Why wouldn’t I seek the “familiar” when anxious and troubled?
Nowadays, I know if a medication is working or not. If it works, I simply can’t GET to that “familiar” place. Does that make sense?
You mention the debilitating effects of consumerism and social isolation. Someone else asked about nutrition. Is there a connectivity possible here? For example, we’ve learned that cancer/CLL makes infection more of a risk.
Are consumerism/social isolation and such intangible factors more affecting because a person is malnourished with proper nutrients and thus more susceptible to depression? Like a Vitamin C deficiency leads to scurvy, a Vitamin D deficiency leads to depression [I have no scientific expertise on this, it’s just a surmise because of the use of light therapies, like katymine’s mention above]?
I find that even when one lives simply, it becomes more and more difficult to maintain a simple lifestyle. I feel so for people who experience this very real dilemma. I spent years in a black hole and then years in therapy and on medication. I no longer have to take the meds and due to very talented therapists I have a much better life. Like gonzo, I was angry, but I didn’t realize my anger. Once I turned it loose, it was “Katie bar the door”. I learned to channel my anger toward good. I absolutely think that our lack of community and acceptance of one another is critical for healing.
PhysioProf’s question is an apt one. The premise that depression is a response to pain seems highly suspect to me, based solely on my own experience.
I have found depression to be a corollary to pain/sadness, but every much a generator of same as a response to it. For me, depression is my principal state of being in the world – the filter through which all information passes before being processed consciously. Before I became aware of this, I was unable to notice that my automatic response to most stimuli was to look for the “negative,” the “bad,” and to perceive things accordingly. I can’t say that I have been at all “cured” at this point – I remain pretty well stuck in depression a lot of the time – but I have had enough episodes wherein I was able to remove the filter for a while, or at least mitigate its effects enough, that I was able to come to the realization that there ismore than one way in which to view the world and events.
AS to pharmacology: I have recently resumed low-dose effexor after mostly a year away from it (a year in which I was “doing fine”). Some recent events have led me to think that it’s best to start effexor back up now. Having been on prozac, wellbutrin, zoloft, sinequan, and one or two more at various stages in my life, I have found that most have had effects ranging from negligible to zero. Effexor, however, did make _some_ perceptible difference – not in the sense that it made everything better, but so that it mitigated the sharpest downward spikes enough that I was able to maintain a modicum of reasoning ability/motivation to continue breathing. I am convinced that it has saved my life more than once. I know others who have similar issues to me who refuse any and all meds, influenced in large measure by the sort of talk we see here – people who are convinced that all antidepressants are basically either frauds or toxic. I feel that a prejudice against psychopharmacology is a disservice to many depressed people.
I do believe this is key. Unless you are unconscious, or just don’t give a crap, there is no escaping the utter violence havoc and destruction our Western consumer society wreaks on this world. It is literally sickening to behold. Reactions range from unease and discomfort to anxiety, paranoia and rage. And I’m just talking about myself.
Dr Levine, and Eve, thank you for this enriching discussion.
Do you think that these issues are “taboo” in our culture because of the power of BigPharma’s ad dollars? I can always tell when The Network News will have a story exposing BigPharma — all the auto companies are suddenly sponsoring that evening’s broadcast, as BigP has fled the scene with its customary ads.
It’s wonderful to have this forum about this issue. I am an “off-user” of several anti-depressants prescribed for other conditions in lower doses, after several years of medical marijuana therapy for those conditions along with depression. I find the dullness of BPharma’s meds competes with the ’stonedness’ of MM for making regular daily life difficult.
And without trivializing clinical depression, I must agree with the previous comment that If You’re Not Depressed You’re Not Paying Attention. Plenty to be depressed about lately.
Thanks again, have ordered your book and look forward to reading it, Dr.
And to Eve, thanks for your many illuminating conversations at DK about our unhealthy health system.
I’m seeing some ideas here for those of us who may not be personally affected by depression but have friends or family in our lives who are.
Education/understanding of what depression is. The power of reaching out because someone else may not be able to. What other suggestions for how we can help as nonmedical people…as caring friends or family?
Actually, though this is news to most Americans, the the serotonin deficiency (or other such neurotransmitter deficiency theory) of depression was discarded by scientistists by the mid-1990s and even the “psychiatry establishment” — the institutions in bed with Big Pharma — have now discarded it.
In Newsweek in its February 26, 2007 cover story about depression reported that the director of the National Institute of Mental Health rejected the a depressed brain was caused by an underproduction of sertonin or any other neurotransmitter.
Pharmaceutical companies, however, have been so effective marketing the neurotransmitter deficiency theory of depression that even though the NIMH has now retreated from this view, the general public and many doctors continue to believe it.
So, if serotonin levels are not associated with depression, what is?
The following will be obvious for those who have retained their commonsense in the face of Big Pharma propaganda.
Social isolation–I already talked about that.
Dissatisfying significant relationships–the majority of unhappily depressed women report that the source of their depression is their unhappy marriage.
Poverty–people on public assistance in the U.S. have three times the rate of depression as the general population.
Unemployment–if you are unemployed in the U.S., you are almost twice as likely to be depressed as the general population.
History of trauma–over 200 studies.
Severe medical problems.
What do all these depression associations have in commmon? Overwhelming pain.
I agree Bob Costas is an unfortunate example to use in this case. He was a thoughtful, unifying person in St. Louis in the early ’80s and knows about much more than sports. He went to NY from there and moved back when he had a child because he thought St. Louis was a better place to grow up. He seems much more like Olbermann to me. /OT
Adam Curtis’s remarkable documentary, “The Century of the Self,” explains some about how we got to the self- and stuff-loving culture in which we live. Recent brain imaging research shows that altruism turns on the same pleasure centers as food and sex. Our selfish culture is depriving us of a basic pleasure. Surely that contributes to our depressed feelings.
Thanks for the most interesting discussion, eve and Bruce.
>I know others who have similar issues to me who refuse any and all meds, influenced in large measure by the sort of talk we see here – people who are convinced that all antidepressants are basically either frauds or toxic. I feel that a prejudice against psychopharmacology is a disservice to many depressed people.
(Sorry, I can’t seem to reply to specific posts right now.)
In his book, Bruce says that if you’re on meds and they’re working for you, great.
There are those with chronic pain issues that fight depression as well. I happen to be one of those. I’ve gotten the pain under some control, which has helped with the depression as well. But i knew the factor of what was causing that on and off depression. It still hits me because i’m no longer capable of the feats i was able to do 5 years ago.
I tend to use anger as a tool for it, because it motivates me to get out of that dark spot. To figure out how to do what i need to. Some do need the medications for that extra oomph. But there is no excuse for Big Pharma’s insane pushing of some of these meds.
bamablue, i also agree with you completely. Social networks and stripped down living makes a difference. There’s too many choices today, it confuses others and makes the greed factor go even higher.
No, well from personal experience at least in the social isolation sense .. not “pain”.
I tend to agree that humans are social animals and without some real social interaction things begin to go “wrong”.
But it’s not real painful per se to slowly go periodically and mildly nuts because you’re isolated all the time. It can be amusing/embarassing, but it’s not particularly painful. Especially if you have strains of anti-social feelings to begin with.
Hello Dr. Levine,
As a practitioner of an ‘alternative therapy’, I’m wondering what your thoughts are relating to accupressure, Jin Shin Jyutsu, Reiki, etc. for use in dealing with various types of mental, emotional dis-ease.
Dr. Levine, I look forward to reading your book.
Social isolation. I find it ironic that there are nearly 7 billion people on this planet, and yet such tremendous lonliness and isolation. Internet, which is supposed to connect people, does just the opposite. Okay, disclaimer, there are communities, and there is connection, like this place.
But there is something terribly alienated about people who stare at a screen, “chatting” with strangers, while family members or friends may be feet away, ignored.
I certainly don’t discount the very real issues of pain and depression that you link together, but then how do you explain the yearly affects of SAD? I am lucky enough to have escaped all of the above issues you listed, yet every year as it gets darker longer I experience mild symptoms that go away as the days grow longer.
My thoughts in response to Dr. Levine’s response: I have experienced social isolation (a lot), miserable relationships (a lot), and poverty (likewise). And I’ve been depressed during these times – but not necessarily BECAUSE of them. But it becomes a chicken/egg question: what causes what here? I can see where my depression made me, at various times, under/unemployable, not to mention a general drag to be around (hence isolation and bad relationships). These things of course do not _help_ depression at all…misery surely makes for more misery. But knowing that I’ve also been acutely depressed when having been making $70k a year and in what seemed like a perfect relationship, I have to acknowledge that there is something WITHIN ME that poisoned these situations, prevented me from connecting with them or enjoying them as I should have been able to do (and which ultimately resulted in my losing them.)
This response is a bit late, but I agree with Raven about Costas, and think it is On Topic. I understand Eve’s point (our pop culture is ridiculous!), but she could have used someone a lot more despicable then Bob Costas. I raise my daughter with the theme that I hope she finds what makes her happy and that a profession/job should be something she loves first and foremost. Yes, we have lots of micro-economies that seem to not contribute to society (ie. don’t provide food, shelter, health care), like sports, movies, music, video games, etc., but take ‘em all away and watch how depressed we get. It’s a fine line because I think “entertainers” are overpaid, but so are CEO’s, and in the end, which produces more joy in our lives? Everyday here at the Lake we talk about our favorite movies, songs, artists, sports teams, etc. They help us feel connected to others and can run the gamut from thought-provoking to mindless, but they DO serve a purpose, especially in our society today, and they also create jobs.
Welcome, Dr. Levine and Eve:
Do we have a definition of depression? In my experience it’s not merely feeling blue or unhappy; it’s an overwhelming, paralyzing condition; an almost complete shutdown of a functioning life. That was my personal case, anyway.
You’ve just experienced the textbook reaction to most medications by anyone. Every person’s body metabolizes medications differently. Also how it reacts with your system in general differs. What works for some? Won’t work for others, which is why finding the right antidepressant that will work takes some time and adjustment.
That’s pretty much the idea with all medications, just not anti depressants. It’s a science, but like most biological medicine? It’s not an exact science exactly because of the differences of human physiology. A huge factor in finding something that works for those who do need the medications.
I read this, I want to respond, but words don’t seem enough. Be kind to yourself, Gonzoliberal.
Exactly what I have been saying, CarolynU. Even this “chat”–who can follow all the backing-and-forthing? It’s not a “chat” or a “talk” as humans have been programmed by evolution and culture to understand such a discourse… This is like Alice in Wonderland. For example, wonderful nyceve is the putative “moderator” but what is she “moderating?” A lot of disembodied voices, each with his or own concern–very few of which are being addressed. I say again, no one’s fault, but it is not conducive to true community. Meanwhile, people are swallowing whole the idea that these are in fact communities. They are not. Mostly, anyhow.
Oh yeah, I promised that I’d talk some about the relationship between “extreme consumer culture” and depression.
There are several reasons why “extreme consumer culture” is related to the dramatic increases in depression.
One reason for higher depression rates in consumer societies — at least according to the World Health Organization — is that in such societies there is routinely less social support and more of “everybody-out-for-themselves” mentality — and many studies show supportive relationships are an important antidote to depression.
Consumer societies encourage heightened expectations for financial and material success, and often these expectations don’t get met — this resulting in increased emotional pain and such pain can be a source of resentment or depression.
Also, consumer cultures, especially through advertising, create what I term an “unhappiness taboo” in which you are propagandized to feel bad about feeling bad. If you can get somebody to feel that it abnormal to feel anxiety, sadness, and other negative emotions, then you get people to feel in pain about their pain–which makes their pain worse. And pain is the fuel for depression.
For many people “extreme consumer culture” is quite alienating, and alienation can be extremely painful. I know people who feel extremely pained by being alienated from Nature.
As in any culture, there is a tradeoff. And the tradeoff in consumer cultures for many people is increased buying power in return for jobs that often offer only a paycheck with little meaningfulness — and meaningfulness is an antidote to depression.
Maybe I should stop here, because I’m starting to depress myself with how depressing consumer culture can be for people, at least some people who don’t belief that high-tech convenience is a fair trade for the decimation of the natural world!
PatK at 72
Thanks for your response.
Like you, I spent time (a whole bunch of my life) depressed.
A psychiatrist (not the first I ever saw) finally bluntly told me I was depressed.
Maybe it’s the placebo effect, but the medicine he prescribed (which I initially rejected) seems to have made a BIG difference. But truth to tell, the medicine wouldn’t have worked nearly so well without the therapy sessions I had with him (I strongly feel).
I am not a professional, but I worked at a university with an excellent division of geriatric medicine. The director insisted that geriatric depression is one of the most undertreated of ailments. My mom had to quit her antidepressant, Elavil, because it causes falls in the elderly, and she also has senile dementia. I took her to a psychiatrist to have the concurrent conditions treated. She takes two memory medicines and two antidepressants and has for about eight years with no ill effects. My friend’s dad the same age has not taken these medications and is experiencing the paranoia seen so often in those with memory loss. (”I can’t find it, therefore Soandso stole it.”)
.02
Social isolation. I find it ironic that there are nearly 7 billion people on this planet, and yet such tremendous lonliness and isolation. Internet, which is supposed to connect people, does just the opposite. Okay, disclaimer, there are communities, and there is connection, like this place.
Um, well, I think a social phenomenon is occurring that most of our “experts” still have very little clue about.
It used to be in the past, whatever the political opinions of friends and family, you lived with it and went along to get along.
But I tend to think the very existence of the political blogs left and right is indicative of a cultural pulling apart of our entire society.
Given the choice, I’d rather chat with a liberal stranger anonymously on a blog than spend one minute with any of my conservative family members.
That is a damn good definition of depression.
This doesn’t answer my question, which was not about causes of depression, but what depression is.
dov12348, that certainly rings a bell for me.
Just to clarify: KalenCO, I didn’t mean to imply that that was Dr. Levine’s orientation. I was referring more to the general suspicion of “big pharma” and its products that has permeated a lot of this thread. I concur that the fucking pharma firms are some of the most noxious and toxic entities on earth, all too often…but I also had to draw the point that not everything they produce is inherently worthless or evil where antiDs are concerned, and that for some (like myself) they can literally be lifesavers. Speaking of the people I know, I think it’s sad that some of them will never ever try them at all, and that as a consequence they are highly unlikely to recover as other alternatives seem not to have produced results for them.
WRT living a simple lifestyle, I fear that it’s become a common line of thought in America, conscious or not, that being anything short of middle-class is not just suboptimal, but unacceptable. I’m rather young in social/political/life experience terms (25), but it seems to me that there has been a trend toward defining “success” as beating the crowd, getting out of the “rat race”, and so on, but paradoxically promoting it as something that anyone who wants to can achieve. Those who are financially poor (by choice or not) seem to be largely ignored in both economic and social contexts. The market doesn’t seem to provide sensible options for those with little money. What’s more, we increasingly seem to live in a world where “luxury” items are more affordable than necessities – the old conservative canard about the family that can’t make rent but can afford a color TV rings particularly hollow today, when a decent color TV costs under $100 while people in many areas are lucky to have monthly rent under $1000. As I write this, I can’t help but agree more and more with the notion that a sick society produces sick people…
Gotcha, Rabid. The flip side is that I participate on another message board and I’m amazed at how many people post saying, “I’m down. I’m going to ask my doctor for meds” without batting an eye. Part of that may be that they’ve thought through everything before posting and this is the conclusion they’ve come to, but something tells me that it’s actually a knee-jerk reaction. Instead of thinking there might be other ways to treat situational or chronic depression, they jump for what is perceived to be the easy solution.
How about untreated and underdiagnosed hypothyroidism?
If this is the case, what is going on when people taking medications that affect neurotransmitters feel that these meds are “working”.
Okay, that includes me – who did quite well on Celexa for a while – and now having also been diagnosed with ADHD, on Wellbutrin. And boy, can I tell the difference when I go off my meds.
NYceve – Very interesting subject, long forgotten in recent times.
Have you explored the subject of women suffering from depression in the 1950s just after the war years? Depression was epidemic. Women were recommended for shock treatment as standard medical practice. I was in my early teens at the time and I remember the hush-hush subject of suicide among women, including on my block and in my own family. It was an unspoken subject. Several friends’ mothers were admitted to mental institution by their own family (husband, parents, etc.) because they rebelled against their traditional role of wife and mother.
To this day I have seen no studies on that period on the rampant suicide rate among women and the practice of shock treatment to keep them in line
Smartyjones and TinyFirefly, I agree with both of you though you have opposite viewpoints. This is a new kind of community, though a bit disjointed. There is clear connection here, though sometimes fleeting. But, people staring at screens. Why are we so alone? What happened to neighbors we know, conversations over the fence, or at the kitchen table? Or was that a myth?
Kalen, I agree with you too…there is far too great a propensity for many to look to pills to “solve” problems best addressed by other means. Which is a very american attitude, isn’t it: Much easier to take a pill than to, say, try to reopen lines of communication with alienated family members or get a new job that fulfills you instead of making you feel like an android.
Ditto. No gifts for us, either. Our present is to fly across the country to visit family for a few days during the holidays, make meals for them in the high style and have good talk. Of course, small presents for small children always de rigueur.
Yep, Rabid.
OT, thanks folks!
Besides being alienating it is empty and unfulfilling. It is like having cottoncandy for dinner ever day. There is no substance and nurishment for the soul.
I think what you describe is part of the larger consumer culture issue. We’ve been trained to demand products and reject processes.
Carolyn, part of the problem I suppose can be if you are like me and you have strains of anti-social stuff in your background.
People for me can be ugly and the internet is a way of holding them at arm’s length. And I suppose that in my perception you have no option or few options if you’re a certain type of person, with a certain type of outlook on the world (even job!).
The way I look at it, western society has always been intolerant of differences. Only now, there’s an escape valve/enabling act called the internet. If I were forced to hazard a guess, I would suppose people in times past either learned how to be crazy and be a hermit (thus going more and more crazy) or somehow had to learn how to fix it.
Not anymore.
But consider also the cost and availability of mental health services when you wonder why people take meds instead of exploring other options.
I once waited a year to get 25 minutes with a psychiatrist who specialized in ADHD. And spent thousands of dollars on a private therapist over a period of years. Not everyone can afford this, or can even access quality mental health services in the places where they live.
If you experienced that, I’m sorry to hear it.
I realize that most of what the heck we are all talking about is fairly depressing. But a major point of my book was that there are major antidotes, often neglected in the medicalization of depression.
Two important areas that I have chapters on are morale and healing. With morale and heaing–which are crafts not sciences–we cannot act on commonsense advice that would help with depression. Often people get typical cognitive-behavioral advice such as exercise, have more optimistic thoughts, meet people–all good ideas but impossible to do when we feel completely depressed. So we fail that advice, and that failure becomes one more painful experience, and we have even more fuel for depression.
But with morale and healing, we can start creating lifelong antidotes to depression.
One is social activism. Even if we are not successful at creating a less depressing world, it is likely we we will meet like-minded people we engage the world this way, and these relationship can be morale boosting and healing.
I’m interested in how others experience of morale and healing–after years of studying Big Pharma bullshit, I find that much more interesting morale , healing, and activism issues more interesting.
Mostly a myth. Propagated by that other… thing… television. LEAVE TO BEAVER, ANDY OF MAYBERRY, FATHER KNOWS BEST… DR. KILDARE! They were fantasies/myths and that’s why people loved them. Because most of our lives–then and now–bore little resemblance to these people and places and lives (and physicians!)… And they, too, made their contributions to an epidemic of depression. Women couldn’t be Aunt Bee or whoever Beaver’s mother was. And doctors weren’t Richard Chamberlain… and yet, the nation swallowed the myth whole. And paid the price. The nation now swallows the Glories of the Internet whole, unquestioningly, blindly… Sure, it has its uses. But it has a deep, dark side as well. And too deep and too dark to go into here.
I agree, Armored. I define success as living life the way you want to. I chose the work that I had always longed to do after years of a high paid career. I have driven the same auto for 14 years and live in a small house. I can’t say that it wouldn’t be nice to have a huge new HDTV, but I would rather do work that I love and stick with the old tube I have. I am 60 years old now and I wish I had gotten help when I was much younger. I would have seen things so much differently. And yes, altruism is a natural high. I get great joy from helping others, and that doesn’t always mean one has to have money to be of service. Thanks for your response.
Great topic and one that many people suffer from silently. Me? I am silent no longer on my ‘problem.’ Have had bouts of depression and helplessness often since a young child. Sometime there are surrounding events that trigger them, and sometimes they just … come.
After my divorce I went through the worst. Many periods of hospitalization and the usual meds to level my dark thoughts out. I finally came to the conclusion that I wanted to live more than I wanted to die (basically someone pointed out that didn’t I want to still be able to put my 2-cents worth in to my grown kids? – YES) and so I decided to move on and no longer considered suicide.
Also I finally figured out what to do for myself when these black moods hit, which they still do. I must keep my mind preoccupied. I took up quilting. Figuring out a complicated new pattern was just the recipe for preoccupying my mind with trivia, and not my current black thoughts.
Sometimes meds are necessary, either for specific diseases, or for times until one can figure out a path forward for the future.
but these days are trying my theories as the world moves beyond rationale, and moves into desparation. And I, right along with the world. I can only control that which I can control, and no more. And so I move on. Without meds and without active therapy. Because I know the path I must travel to get to a mental clearing again.
Thanks for the efforts to bring these issues out in the open.
I’ve been through several episodes of severe clinical depression, and had all kinds of meds. The bottom line is that as I emerged from the episodes it was always impossible to tell if it was from a medication or from other natural bodily changes and/or environmental factors and/or talk therapy and/or education and/or changes in self-understanding or some combination of all this.
My mother.
I realize that most of what the heck we are all talking about is fairly depressing.
That’s not unique here, misery loves company!
My morale was certainly boosted by seeing the Speaker of the House take the gavel almost a year ago. But I found that boost fleeting, to say the least. The healing this community offers to the despondency of political disappointment is invaluable to me.
The elation of our few victories — Chris Dodd’s convincing Harry Reid to pull the FISA telecom-amnesty bill the latest — I feel I have almost physically shared with other FireDogLakers.
I’ve had a somewhat similar, though probably less severe, experience. I seemed to have some kind of mild to moderate lift from antidepressants, but nothing like the night-and-day experience that some people describe.
The elation of our few victories — Chris Dodd’s convincing Harry Reid to pull the FISA telecom-amnesty bill the latest — I feel I have almost physically shared with other FireDogLakers.
And the one great moment when the Libby conviction came down!
LOL. Well, ART45 … after reading Dr. Levine’s response in #79, I wonder if I’m on a placebo, too!!! (Lexapro) But, frankly, I know the stuff IS working. Took 4 months to get the dose right, but it is working now.
The next step is getting back into talk therapy. I’m with you. The meds alone don’t “do it”. They simply take enough of the edge off so that I want to go and get the talk therapy. Unfortunately, money is an issue at the moment, so I’ve had to postpone it for a bit.
And yet at the same time, what Dr. Levine says about pain makes sense to me. Sometime last September, I removed a terrible source of pain from my life. And I found a good sleeping aid to help me get full night’s worth of sleep. The Lexapro began to “work” about a month later. Food for thought, eh???
Social smocial …
Bruce you have a good idea but a very imperfect/blandly stated way to go about fixing it (at least here – I haven’t read your book).
The problem is that the communities we have created in the latter half of the 20th century never worked — never! They always drove people nuts, always created outcasts, and in the first part of the 21st century the internet is something of a panacea. Now we as Americans don’t understand/can’t cope with problems that take 60+ years for their deadly fruits to come to full flower.
I believe that to fix it takes something more than plain vanilla “social activism”. We have to reforge the entire idea of real-world human communities in America. We have to bolt from social conservatism and putting people in boxes in a wholesale manner, and do things that go right to the infrastructure to create new types of real world communities that actually work.
LS
I hope you mean your Mother has done a research on this period and not that she was one of the women of subject.
I’m a loner. Not antisocial, in the sense of being against people, just don’t enjoy others’ company all that much. Mental exercise is what turns me on, and very few people share that desire. So a book, or a meaty online discussion is much more up my alley.
I’m also athletic, but all individual sports, nothing on a team.
She was one of those women.
Yes, the Libby verdict was tantric-in-the-toobz.
Thanks everyone for a great conversation. ‘Night.
I believe that to fix it takes something more than plain vanilla “social activism”.
I agree. That’s the point of my entire last chapter.
A perfect example of impermanence.
I agree. That’s the point of my entire last chapter.
reply
Ok, what’s the short version?
Yeah, that’s it. After all day of calling and faxing together and months or worrying out loud. Connection, no doubt.
But Smartyjones, here’s something. It’s not a myth I think, that people in other cultures, though living much more simply, have greater contentment. (Not discussing people living in great poverty, the midst of war or disease etc.) Our gadgets, our stuff, our technology, our wealth, have all failed to make us happy. Just the opposite. Quaker girl ( I think) has it right: all that is empty.
Dr. Levine, what a rich topic. So important. And potentially empowering.
Yeah, me too .. well for me social interaction is much more of an an again off again thing.
That seems to be something that shows up early on in personality as well. I’ve heard stories of my parents of showing the same ease with being alone compared to the social butterflies the majority of my family are. Nothing wrong with it, just that it’s the way we we are.
I can socialize easily, i just prefer not to. I’m also friends with several other ‘recluses’ as we call ourselves. We all have jobs of some sort, but spend a lot of time alone–to recharge from the crush of humanity. It’s either that, go crazy or be permanently irritated without that bit of self management.
Stories from my parents of me, i mean. Dangit i miss edit!
Hello, Bruce Levine: I HAVE read your book, and find it inspiring – as someone just coming out of a long period of major depression and on pharma. I was shocked by your writing (book) that the serotonin theory has been abandoned.
BUT we are still animals w/ brains that interact both with the rest of our bodies and w/ our minds. Have you considered that at birth children vary on their scales (forget what they are called; eight things e.g. irritability). Couldn’t a “tendency for depression” come from being more fragile in general, or more irritable, etc.?
Like others here, I don’t think my drug experience was simply the placebo effect….
I am highly social and, after 30 years of drinking, I came to the understanding (with help from a shrink) that I was actually drinking just to have a place to be with people. Once I became aware of that I now socialize without drinking and it’s better for all involved.
Dr. Levine, thank you…I am going to borders’ to buy your book tonight. much looking forward to reading it.
Vox,
If you were taking the medications directly from a pharmacy and not as part of a clinical study? They weren’t placebo effect. I work in a pharmacy and i’ve only seen placebo’s dispensed twice in the 4 years i’ve been there. Twice! Out of 1200 scripts an average per week. The difference is how you react to whatever medication you were on, which varies greatly from person to person.
I realize that several of the comments were about psychotropic drugs. So let me just say a few things.
I am not opposed to psychotropic drugs–just the hypocrisy around them. These drugs don’t correct any kind of chemical imbalance, they take the edge off and for some people make them feel better.
I don’t mean to be sarcastic, but many people who use illegal drugs, discuss benefits from them. Ecstasy is a serotonin enhancer and was once used in marital counseling and is now being researched for treatment of post-traumatic stress syndrome.
Cary Grant described himself as a “horrendous” person who became a better one — “born again” in his words — by using LSD approximately 100 times (often given to him by a psychiatrist).
In 2004 the mass media covered Miami Dolphins star running back Ricky Williams’s announcement that he had found marijuana to be “10 times more helpful than Paxil.” What made Williams’s declaration difficult to ignore was that he had been a celebrity spokesman for GlaxoSmithKline, manufacturer of Paxil. Not to bright on the part of Glaxo, right?
How do you make all this gel with evidence coming in from both the fields of genetic research and neuroimaging that there are obvious physical correlates to mental illness? You’re being disingenuous by pointing out that the “chemical imbalance” theory is no longer believed because nobody in the field ever seriously believed in it in the first place. It’s a pop culture oversimplification.
Maybe you should mention that when psychiatry and neurology finally merge, you’ll be about as employable as a wagon wheel manufacturer? Freud only devised psychotherapy, the “talking cure” as a stop-gap measure until it was possible for medicine to study the brain empericly. He’d be horrified that people are still clinging to the remnants of that paradigm when we’re now able to get full three dimensional scans of the brain.
Medical science is not medicalizing behavior. As more is learned about the brain we’re able to see how neuroanatomy coralates to behavior. It’s the traditional psychotherapeutic view that tries to medicalize social deviance. The purely medical paradigm would never have given us homosexuality as an illness, for example.
It is not just the “brain”, it is the “mind”. No thought, no depression.
Okay, at the risk of these sound like a obnoxiously blatant advertisement, here are some of the subchapters:
“A Relationship Retarded Culture?”
“Professionals: Helping or Hurting Community?”
“Democracy and Community”
“Bigness versus Community”
“Maintaining Community by Resisting the Science of Control”
“Authoritarianism, Lemons, and Lemonade”
“Robots in a One-Dimensional Society–or Community”
katy, I too find cloudy, rainy weather rather mood altering. I need sun.
So what have these developments – brain imaging etc. – brought us so far in the way treatment for depression?
Bruce, did you comment on Risperadol? I’ve been looking over the thread and don’t see anything.
It sounds like you are saying that disengagement from community, isolation, produces the pain that causes depression. And that re-engagement (and perhaps medication) can cure the pain, and thus the depression.
Hi, the lift you got from anti-depressants — are you sure it was purely from the drugs? I’ve had lots of anti-depressants and could never clearly distinguish the effects of the drug from all other possible environmental, natural and therapeutic effects on my condition.
The only thing I absolutely knew worked for me was Xanax — and you can’t take much of that because it’s addictive.
Nobody other than David Chalmers and the Catholic Church seriously believes in dualism anymore. Brain = mind, mind = brain. We are the sum of our biology.
Dr. Levine,
I am sure I didn’t mention that for a period of time I stayed at a commune.
Is there anything in there about how the “needs” of corporations and big business is as responsible for the organization of our communities as anything else?
One day we are going to crawl out of our boxes and face each other over that little proverbial fence hedge and realize that we are all staring at very different people .. people that none of us are prepared to interact with, and have indeed learned to despise in some ways, because the way things currently are it’s not so very difficult to shut them out.
With all due respect I’m not against trying to medically treat depression or any medically psychiatric problems and I think that many people see it as an attack on such .. but if we don’t work on the flaws in community without such obviously utopianistic overtones, that’s no way to go about mental health either.
All societies have rules .. but in our communities the wrong emphasis is placed at the wrong places in terms of where individuality is acceptable and where it’s not. We have a very materialistic individuality in this country, but we do not so much favor the other kind.
I’m not sure at all that it was purely from the drugs; it could easily have been some combination of other environmental factors and the placebo effect.
Recluses of the world unite!
Bruce, did you comment on Risperadol? I’ve been looking over the thread and don’t see anything.
That’s an antipsychotic drug not an antidepressant. Although it has now being use regularly along with other so-called atypical antipsychotics such as Zyprexa simply to control disruptive kids.
Lots of problems with these atypicals, especially with diabetes.
Drug companies have been sued by several state district attorneys for suppressing data on the harm of these studies… I can go on, but this is pretty depressing stuff.
unfortunately what we see is what’s most profitable to big pharma for us to see. New antidepressants aren’t currently put on the market until the patent on the last one expires regardless of if the new ones work better or have fewer side effects. I hate being dependent on those bastards, but it’s really wrong to assume that all of medical science suffers from the same moral colorblindness as big pharma executives.
neurotransmitter.net has tons of links to ongoing research. There are also a number of open access medical journals
I was on Risperadol for a number of years, but my shrink switched me to Abilify because of reported liver problems.
I also take Wellbutrin, Zoloft and Strattera.
Quite a cocktail, I know, but it works for me…
“I’m not sure at all that it was purely from the drugs; it could easily have been some combination of other environmental factors and the placebo effect.”
The placebo effect is very real. It’s about expectations, belief, and faith (scientists prefer “expectations”).
In one study on an experimental antidepressant, 90 percent of people who expected that the drug would be VERY effective had a positive result; while only 30 percent who expected that drug would be SOMEWHAT effective had a positive result. No subjects in this study were included who expected no or negative results, but from my experience–especially with children and teenagers–they almost never have a positive result.
So, I suppose I should say I am sorry if anything I said played havoc with those who have faith in their antidepressants–because faith is a big way they work and lack of faith is a major way that they fail.
Dr. Levine,
Your book sounds very interesting and important. I will buy a copy from an independent, locally-owned bookstore in town. Many thanks for hanging with us here and I hope you far exceed any sales goals you have for the book!
That doesn’t answer my question.
Thank you, Dr Levine, for your thoughtful conversation here. I am really looking forward to reading your book.
“Dr. Levine,
Your book sounds very interesting and important. I will buy a copy from an independent, locally-owned bookstore in town. Many thanks for hanging with us here and I hope you far exceed any sales goals you have for the book!”
Thank you. Now that’s my kind of antidepressant!
But, but, but..there’s always Mike the Headless Chicken!!!
http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=189
I do believe most studies have shown that it’s not always a single factor that does the final aspects of healing. It’s also an ongoing thing for most as well. There’s no ‘magic bullet’ to healing the mind, mostly a lot of work and comittment from both the patient and their physicians of all sorts.
The medications are a factor, but not the whole of the treatment if used correctly.
Thanks Bruce. It’s unfathombale to me that they prescribe this stuff for children with ADD–these drugs are like central system nuclear weapons.
Okay, at the risk of these sound like a obnoxiously blatant advertisement, here are some of the subchapters:
Well, the book IS the topic!
thx
While I have issues with Amen, he’s probobly the most accessible person writing on this right now.
http://www.amenclinics.com/
Wait, so money CAN buy happiness? Well I’ll be…
(kidding)
Yes, thank you very much indeed, Dr. Levine, for the intriguing “food for thought”. Monday I will trot right down to my local independent bookseller and provide you with a little more antidepressant!
Bruce, are you saying there is no such thing as primary depression? That would be depression as a disease itself…not depression as a result of unfortunate circumstances?
Rats…I came late to the party.
But Smartyjones, here’s something. It’s not a myth I think, that people in other cultures, though living much more simply, have greater contentment. (Not discussing people living in great poverty, the midst of war or disease etc.) Our gadgets, our stuff, our technology, our wealth, have all failed to make us happy. Just the opposite. Quaker girl ( I think) has it right: all that is empty.
I think that maybe an overstatement .. while I tend to agree that people living more simply, in other cultures, might have greater contentment, depending on the culture, and I agree that gadgets and wealth don’t make you happy .. I think it’s a stretch to say the opposite .. that gadgets and technology make people unhappy.
Rather, the use of technology in America is driven by the profit motive. We use technology the way people who want to sell things would have us use it and not in the service of community. There are people, though, who want to make it better. All due respect, but I’d not want to live like a person in a mud hut on the theory I’d be more “contented”.
Rather, I tend to think that the natural factors in smaller cultures .. the “warp and woof” that is the fabric of culture, has disintegrated in America. We live in communities driven more by economic exigency and ubiquitous non-personal conditions than the kind of people we would like to live with (or around).
Dr. Levine,
Are you selling copies of your book direct online. No offense to FDL’s linkage but I don’t want to feed Amazon; so if you aren’t selling direct, I’ll buy it from Powells. ( http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=1933392711 )
Bruce, I think your book sounds great!!!
Bruce, are you saying there is no such thing as primary depression? That would be depression as a disease itself…not depression as a result of unfortunate circumstances?
Most cases, it is fairly obvious what are the sources of loss, of pain that are fueling the need to shut down with depression or alcohol or some other such compulsion.
Sometimes, it is not obvious.
People who suffer from depression — the research show this– are often more critical thinkers and more sensitive to bullshit than others. And what might be a small pain or loss for some people hits them harder.
Of course that’s true for many writers, musicians, and artists of all kind. All temperaments are double-edged. The gift of sensitivity and critical thinking can also sometimes feel like a curse.
“Are you selling copies of your book direct online. No offense to FDL’s linkage but I don’t want to feed Amazon; so if you aren’t selling direct, I’ll buy it from Powells.”
Another antidepressing question! If you go to my website, brucelevine.net, there’s a link to buy the book that goes straight to the publisher, Chelsea Green. Chelsea Green is an an independent publisher.
Ding, ding, ding!!!
“Of course that’s true for many writers, musicians, and artists of all kind. All temperaments are double-edged. The gift of sensitivity and critical thinking can also sometimes feel like a curse.”
It’s interesting then how many of us that fall into this category are always saying things like, “Why can’t everyone see this?!?” Maybe we shouldn’t wish for that since we don’t want more of the population cursed. “Ignorance is bliss” may be a good thing for a certain percentage.
Although personally, much of my frustration stems from the fact that so many people don’t seem to care about the problems in the world, and I know I’d actually feel much better if more people would understand and “feel” the pain and suffering in the world. That’s why it’s nice to connect with people through places like FDL. Also, if more people were empathic, it’s likely many of the problems would then get solved.
Therefore, I hope more people are “cursed” with the gift of sensitivity!
Thanks. But, sir, your website needs a serious face-lift. :)
Thanks. But, sir, your website needs a serious face-lift. :)
My wife agrees with you!
Disagree. Think there are many, including myself, who think that there is more than biology.
I think it’s a big disservice to people with true organic mental illness to conflate it with natural response to experience. Depression as a symptom and depression and a symptom should not be considered the same thing. Depression stemming from grief and depression stemming from an affective disorder are apples and oranges. Conflating us with the worried well makes it much harder to break down the stigmas.
I pretty much just woke up suicidal when I was 11 or so and have gone back there many times since. The fact of the matter is that it’s impossible to become socially involved in political causes when it takes all the effort you can muster to get out of bed and shower.
Didn’t mean to imply this, TinyFirefly. Not an anthopologist, just speaking from my own experiences – possessions do not equal any kind of fulfillment; and reflecting on a wonderful book “Women in the Material World” – which profiles a few dozen women from around the world – industrialized and third world. The wealthier “advanced” women from the Western cultures had more stuff,that was for sure. The other women had more physical labor. But, when you read people’s faces and body language, which I do, the western “haves” looked harried and depleted somehow, muzzled. The third world women looked worried, more worn, but more full of life. Can’t explain it better than that. The truth was in the pictures.
Bruce, I know firsthand that not all depression has a “cause.” I suffered even in childhood from all the symptoms of depression…lack of concentration, living in blackness, suicidal ideations, crying…and funny thing is…I wasn’t unhappy. Primary depression causes irritability, physical symptoms such as migraines, back problems, sleep problems, eating disorders. Primary depression is an inherited condition and causes divorce, spousal and child abuse, alcoholism, and employment problems. And it is simply cured by antidepressants. You can do talk therapy all you want, and you won’t feel better. When you are properly medicated, many of your social problems disappear. I recommend “You Mean I Don’t Have To Feel This Way? New Help for Depression, Anxiety, and Addiction” by Colette Dowling. Bruce, I’m sure society creates problems that have to be dealt with that are not real depression. I resent people confusing their social problems with real depression. Everybody has a right to be sad now and then, but if it’s your way of life…you’re clinically depressed. Antidepressants give people suffering from real depression their life!
A topic that greatly interests me is how do critical thinkers get faith. Faith is antidote to depresssion, but faith is no easy matter for critical thinkers. One of my favorite people on this topic is William James.
James is one of the most renowned psychologists and philosophers in American history.While the typical psychology major only learns about boring stuff about James, his personal struggle with depression is, I think, very interesting.
James spent a considerable part of his life depressed and wrote, “I take it that no man is educated who has never dallied with the thought of suicide.”
The good news is that James came to “believe in belief,” let go of his dallying with suicide, and wrote, “Life shall [be built in] doing and suffering and creating.”
Now we’re getting into the grist here.
I’d like other opinions as to the role of a competent psychiatrist.
My shrink is a godsend. I’ve been with him for eight years now, and he knows me pretty well.
Sorry, I was mostly speaking of the prevailing views in cog-sci and philosophy of mind (my field if I ever get it back together enough to get on with my grad school plans).
I was quite involved in this project:
http://perxinfo.org
Those interested in this discussion might find additional insight from that Web site.
“dallying with suicide”..not sure , but i wouldn’t call it dallying..
“Antidepressants give people suffering from real depression their life.”
There are certainly many people I know who share your view and I give voice to them in my book.
However, there are many other people who reject your view.
Hopefully, people can learn to be tolerant of other people’s perspectives.
I’ve met many intolerant anti-drug advocates, and many intolerant drug advocates.
Just as A.A. is a Godsend to many people, it fails many more, not because they are in denial of their alcohol problems — but because no treatment, approach, or religion fits everyone. The idea of embracing plurality was what the U.S. was supposed to be founded upon–but fundamentalists of all kinds don’t want this.
Live and let live.
gonzo, I finally found a shrink I could trust, but it was my therapist who guided me throught the work
Didn’t mean to imply this, TinyFirefly. Not an anthopologist, just speaking from my own experiences – possessions do not equal any kind of fulfillment; and reflecting on a wonderful book “Women in the Material World” – which profiles a few dozen women from around the world – industrialized and third world. The wealthier “advanced” women from the Western cultures had more stuff,that was for sure. The other women had more physical labor. But, when you read people’s faces and body language, which I do, the western “haves” looked harried and depleted somehow, muzzled. The third world women looked worried, more worn, but more full of life. Can’t explain it better than that. The truth was in the pictures.
No, possessions don’t, but potential does. I have to confess I have something of a pro-technology bias, maybe even an agenda!
I stayed at a commune for a while, and rather than accepting membership, I left. Not because I couldn’t be happy there with the people but simply because they were technologically retarded (in the “backward” sense) and I knew I would never be able to pursue my dreams there.
I firmly believe in the power of technology to make things better for people, but we here in America don’t control our technology and our culture (particularly the business culture) — they control us. You blame Western civilization and in one way I even agree with you. So a culture that tries to emulate us would certainly suffer from the same maladies.
Partly, I believe, it’s because our technology is actually too primitive (or else, just used foolishly and in unfulfilling ways) for things that really matter. You talk about having to stare at a screen to get community — that’s an example of what I am talking about!
Set to work on the problem, I think we could create communities that are truly paradises compared to the ones we have now but it involves creating many of them and allowing different communities to have different foci. They wouldn’t look anything like things we now call communities which are just under the surface ramshackle amalgations of very different people. That’s the “warp and the woof” I mentioned in an earlier post. If I could just wave a magic wand and whip up what I am talking about, it would be something of a cross between old style village and commune — or like an English township. But since the idea doesn’t really work as well unless you have hundreds or thousands of these .. you have to get a social movement going.
I am so happy that you are getting steady and good help, gonzoliberal! It is a blessing indeed to have a mental health professional in a country, that eschews mental illness… I mean we closed all our mental hospitals in response to “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest” and the stinginess of our government… and look at how we have crammed our prisons.
I would like to clarify something I commented on earlier about the brain/mind. My mother suffered her whole life with severe depression. She attempted suicide at least 50 times via various mean…she was treated with uppers to feel better during the day, and barbs at night to sleep…she was living a nightmare, obsessed with pain, sorrow, grief, darkness…she was treated with shock therapy, she was placed in institutions. She would come out and be the most amazingly, interesting person who would take the shirt off her back to help anyone, anytime….then, suddenly she would descend into a pattern of thinking…negative thinking. She could not help it, but it was there, and it would progress, and progress…
Therapists were always puzzled, she would always give them some kind of “concrete reason” as to why she was so tormented…the family, the war, etc.
When she was in her middle 70’s (she lived to be 88), she began to forget that she was depressed…she forgot that she had arthritis…over the years, she forgot about her fears, and her angers. They were the best years of her life. She did have small brain infarctions, caused probably by medications (according to her physician, Dr. Mayeux NYC). So, probably the effects on her brain affected how she “thought”….that was what I was referring to. How she thought. That was the problem. Did her brain “control” how she thought and cause her depression? I don’t know, but I do know that “what she thought” caused the depression to become her “reality”.
I just wanted you to know what I meant, when I wrote, No thought/No depression. I’m sorry you have/are suffering. I do care.
I made a comment earlier, but having read the above comments completely, I recognize my rejection of socialization in other’s comments. I did not talk (except for a few words to parents) at all in my earlier years. Never spoke a single word in school until the 5-6 grade. Everyone thought I was ’slow’, and they simply moved me from grade to grade assuming that they knew I would never get anywhere. but I was absorbing everything, just had no need to interact. But I did learn to read and started reading in secret in my closet.
I was born to parents in their 40’s and was an only child. Both of my parents were very career orientated and both very much in love with each other and both were very socially active. I never fit in. Never wanted to. My depression, after much talk therapy, and learning to deal with it, came from accepting myself the way I was.
Now my 3 children are very socially active, and once again I can barely stand my own children’s get togethers, as I am much more at home with the youngest of children reading stories and coloring. I am 62. All three of my kids are totally confused by my feelings, just as my parents were.
But I have accepted who I am, and tough bones for those who don’t accept who I am. :-) I still prefer riding a horse silently and alone through fields than being in a party of people.
This statement proves that you are not a scientist, have no interest in science and are utterly unqualified to speak on medical matters.
I interpret the statement you attributed as the usefulness of having an open mind and scientific skepticism of the complete body of knowledge. Very healthy.
GrandmaJ, that is just the way it is, and that is just fine. It is amazing what a horse can do for the soul. (Yes, I know..the outside of a horse etc…, quote)…but it is the “inside” of the horse, not the “outside” of the horse…that is the secret…
My conscious awareness of faith began with my first mania when I was 34, after my cyclothymic twenties, and depressions as a teenager, which at first I thought were just my normal state whenever I didn’t have a girlfriend. The mania stopped in four hours with Thorazine, but the experience introduced me to a possibility for a non-traditional God that my critical thinking never presented to me. My craziness came and went several times after that, but the faith stayed. It left me with a definition for God that God is whoever and whatever answers when I say, “God help me!” whether my brain does that all by itself or there really is something beyond me to answer that plea. People I come across don’t like that definition. They want to talk about a God that’s bigger than anything, in reference to a creation no one witnessed, even the God I experience, as well as metaphysics that is completely speculative, whether it’s atheists, traditionalists or my fellow liberals doing the speculating. I’ve found my interest in faith to be much more practical than critical in recent years.
I would think lots of people have had less intense moments of transition like that, need winning out over skepticism or caution.
Antidepressants worked well for me, too well sometimes, as one of them was the trigger for that mania. I found I didn’t need them after my forties. Lithium helps me enough by itself. I guess I also found enough hope and meaning in my life that I didn’t need them after that. Maybe my intimacy needs were finally being met well enough that I didn’t need them. Who can measure such a thing with precision?
There is so much uncertainty in these issues that I think it’s unfortunate that anyone becomes dogmatic about it. I heard Dr. Lewis Judd of UC San Diego present data a few years ago about how every younger age cohort is turning out to have more well-diagnosed clinical depression than their elders. The increase in depression is a fact, however much of it is due to increased awareness by health professionals or through “Big Pharma bullshit” without an actual increase in pathology or the population actually becoming more depressed. What it means is open for speculation, as far as I’ve read.
It’s not a surprise that suspicion about this turns to something general about our society. It’s hard to imagine we’re that different biologically, despite the subculture that says all health is nutritional. It’s hard to imagine that family problems and growing up is all that different. So that leaves how the culture is evolving as the obvious culprit, and people have been looking at the alienation produced by modern culture for some time.
But how bad is that alienation? Is it hurting people’s relationships or is it providing us with freedom to put various cultural delusions and social straightjackets behind us, enough to make up for the negatives? Is the increasing depression that has been measured, not whatever misdiagnosis there is, but apparently good diagnoses by good researchers, a sign that the culture is evolving in a way that’s good in the long run? I don’t know. I’m pretty sure no one else knows either. I don’t know data that can tell the difference.
I don’t bring that up as a reason to be complacent, but as another possibility. I wish people were more interested in possibilities than in declaring depression to be “anger turned inward”, a serotonin deficiency, or overwhelming pain, all of which seem inadequately simplistic to me. I myself would talk about depression in terms of how people respond to unmet needs, biologically and behaviorally, but maybe that’s too simplistic, too.
I know many people who would say I’m full of it if I tried to argue that everyone should find hope, meaning and intimacy the way I did, even not counting the mania. People react this way, whether it’s my bullshit, Big Pharma bullshit or your bullshit. These are not things where there’s a demonstrable right answer. Cultural evolution is a very difficult subject, even when it’s academics looking at how cultures grew in the past. I am not like my fellow liberals who react to that by saying everyone’s right. There’s usually only a little of someone else’s experience that teaches me anything. How do you live when life is like that, when there’s no book that can teach you everything you need? You do the best you can, but that doesn’t mean that faith always wins over caution. I think flexibility is very underappreciated.
Because, whether we like it or not, we are aware that we are aware. The problem is, how to deal with what we are aware of. Might as well enjoy the ride, because if we don’t accept that we are aware of our existence, our awareness of pain, grief etc., puzzles us and we just suffer from ignorance or denial.
My good Buddhist friend says she “floats” through life, although she is clearly proactive in reality, but she doesn’t fight the downsides or strive for the high sides. She does get sad, but she does not get depressed, however, it isn’t any easier for her than anyone else. Just a blip of my experience.
These “experts” who rail against medical treatment of depression really piss me off. Why don’t we just stop taking all medications if we’re so afraid of Big Pharma? Why should we treat high cholesterol? Can’t those folks just eat differently? How about medical treatment for diabetes? Shouldn’t those people just lose weight? Primary depression is a medical condition with suicide as a symptom. I think it’s the #3 cause of death in teenagers. It is dangerous for “experts” to tell us how putting away our credit cards and being more neighborly is going to fix that.
Because it’s not an either/or scenario. The advances in Medicine over history have been wonderful and saved millions of lives. This is fantastic, however it’s also been abused now by the profit motive. As much as there’s a Military Industrial Complex, there’s a Medical Industrial Complex that steamrolls over anything that might damage shareholder value.
I experienced this in a profound way when my wife and I decided to have kids. We had homebirths, and we got to the point of not telling people about this part of our plans during the pregnancies, because of all the insults and criticism we were getting. “Are you CRAZY!?!” “How could you put your baby’s life in jeopardy?!?”
It didn’t matter how calmly we tried to explain that homebirth with a certified midwife is much safer than birth in a hospital, not to mention the incredibly powerful benefits to the mother and child. I’m thrilled to have Medical intervention available if a problem arises that might have caused death 100 years ago, but the fact that 95% or more of births in the US are in hospitals is because of profits, not what’s best for mothers and babies.
I felt like Dr. Levine was simply trying to raise this same issue with drugs and depression. Seems to me he was saying drugs are over-prescribed and cited a lot data to support this, and not that no one can ever benefit from drugs. One of his comments said even if the positive effect of a particular drug is because a placebo effect, that’s cool too since it’s helping someone feel better.
People tend to get defensive when presented with things outside the “conventional” means, especially in regards to medicine which is somewhat understandable, but I think it’s important that all involved keep an open mind to new ways of thinking and treatment, which often are the old ways anyway, and we can all make better choices for ourselves in the future. Power to the people!