The ARG poll released on the 24th has Clinton now beating Obama in Iowa (Clinton 27%, Obama 21%, Edwards 20). Jerome Armstong says he thinks this means Obama peaked in November and is on a downward trend. And Chris Bowers has taken a mean average of the last five polls from each state and combined it with the Pollster regression line for each state, and come up with Clinton 29%, Obama 27.4 and Edwards at 22.7%.
But Pollster’s chart (above) says that Obama has taken the lead, and David Kurtz at TPM says "It’s really a rather remarkable event." Obama has also historically been a very good closer in his past races, so the possibility that he is still trending upward is not remote.
For the confused, there’s also a good article up at Pollster on the difficulties of polling in Iowa, and how all the polls depend on defining who a "likely primary voter" will be, and each polling outfit has a different definition. Which is to say, it’s an apples-to-oranges affair — and probably anybody’s race to win or lose at this point.
Jerome offers up this interesting comment from Dan Conley in Iowa:
The DMR endorsement and the Newsweek cover for Edwards have helped slow the Obama momentum in Iowa, turning the huge-universe sample into a three-way tie. This is largely an Iowa phenomenon, Obama’s momentum in New Hampshire continues unabatted.
As I’ve been saying for weeks, the results in Iowa depend more on campaign strategy and precinct captain training than polls … Obama and Edwards have the strength and organization to push Hillary into third place if they don’t care which one comes out on top (by trading spare votes across the board.) My guess is that team Edwards is confident enough in their rural organization to offer an arrangement to Obama, but Obama has to fear an Edwards win, so he’s likely to roll the dice. It’s a risk, though, because any Hillary win raps up the nomination.
Richardson slamming Hillary on Iraq yesterday is potentially huge news … I doubt that there’s a reciprocity agreement between their campaigns now. Hillary could very well be on her own in Iowa, which is not good … Biden and Dodd should be looking to Edwards for vote trading relationships. Kucinich had one in 2004, but his lack of precinct captains made it impossible for Edwards to full capitalize on it.
I’m predicting a surprisingly comfortable win for Edwards, with around 35 percent of delegates, with Obama and Hillary in a fierce fight for number two. The Edwards people in 2004 were disappointed that they didn’t do more to deprive Kerry of oxygen and let Dean fall too hard … don’t be too surprised if there’s a last minute Edwards-Clinton deal that seals a first place win for Edwards while pushing Obama to #3 (which helps both campaigns short and long run.)
…It can go beyond that, conspiracy. Once you pass viability, there are thresholds before you get to extra delegates. So often you end up with spare voters who make no difference in your delegate count, but if passed to another candidate, can deprive a rival of a delegate.
Hillary is likely to be viable everywhere … but if she and Edwards cut a deal to share spare delegates, they can probably deprive Obama of one delegate per precinct, which is basically the difference between getting 30 percent of the vote and 18 percent.
Now, you can’t deploy this strategy unless you have a skilled precinct captain AND a precinct chair who understands the rules. I, an Iowa novice in 2004, had to instruct the chair about re-division of the house rules in our precinct last time out … and most of the caucus participants were unaware of what I was talking about. I was fortunate to get the ruling in my favor, but the chair has a lot of power to shut things down, even in violation of the rules.
People think that the Iowa caucus is a participatory democracy, but it is much more similar to a huge, chaotic congress.
Nobody can afford a Hillary win — her "inevitability" factor becomes enormous. But Edwards and Obama are splitting the "reform" vote right now, and it will make life easier for camp Clinton for that to continue. Would they make such a deal to help Edwards take #1 and slow down Obama?
Obama obviously sees Edwards as a threat in Iowa, hence the attacks on Edwards for using 527s in the primaries (though he won’t say whether he’ll reject the help of 527s in the general). But even if Edwards wins Iowa, he’s got a lot of real estate to make up in New Hampshire. The latest Boston Globe poll has Obama 30%, Clinton 28% and Edwards 14%.
And beyond New Hampshire, what’s the Edwards plan?
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wuz goin on?
Keep your own money insulate your home ,,starting with the rim joise First nope1
Hello, Jane…
Jane!
bigbob and I are time travellers.
Jeebus, I hope this comes to pass, and that it snows in Iowa next week Thursday…
I love Iowa! I honestly love the State itself. And I love the caucus method. I’d love to be a fly on the wall in many of those meetings.
Here another side to it. Imagine you’re a repub. They’re not happy with the field. Who’s gonna show up and publicly speak out for some of these people? I can only imagine the conversations: “Oh, so you’re for the guy with the magic underwear!” And … well, take it from there!
If you the fly on the wall for the Dems, there will be some good arguments going on.
In the repub caucuses… it’s really going to descend to a dirty and humorous level!
Come on Edwards!! Come on Iowa!! Do the right thing for America!
I would take Obama over Hillary anyday, but I still worry he won’t be elected in the general election… rural Americans are weird people and I’m not sure they can overcome racism and name issues… that could be enought to derail him in the generall… whereas clearly Rove et al. fear Edwards the most… he is by far the most electable in the general.
Please God, no Hillary, we’ll lose for sure.
I think Iowa is a toss up between the top three. Of these, I prefer Edwards. I like that Richardson slammed Hillary over her Iraq doublespeak. I am very distrustful of Hillary’s Bush-lite foreign policy views. I agree that Edwards needs a post-Iowa strategy. I wonder if he will push hard in NH or go for South Carolina instead.
Edwards and Obama can make a deal for Edwards to win in Iowa, therefore prepping the way for an Edwards-Obama P-VP ticket in general.
It’s difficult to see how Clinton does anything but help the Republics. Why these voters can’t see that is baffling.
Maybe I was jumping the gun with this in 2004, but I remain unconvinced that landline conducted polls reflect an entire marketplace. Zogby argued otherwise at the time.
Biodun,
Snow is very bad for those of us planning on attending but still have to work. Doors close at 7:00pm in rural areas (John Edwards stronger area)precints are not just neighborhoods but big areas with very bad roads when snow and ice covered.
These possible scenarios are exactly why Iowa is always first. The Iowa caucuses are strategy and human nature in equal amounts. Iowans have always reveled in their political prowess and intuitiveness. This caucus will go down in the history of our nation as one of the closest and most contentious. The political historians and pundits can do no more than merely guess. The 2008 primary and general will be memorialized in U.S. political history. Oh, and since we’re so close…OBAMA ‘08 :)
Why is that unique to Iowa?
Jane:
One thing is certain in Iowa and that is nothing is for certain.
Jim Reporting from Iowa,
Keep in mind that party affiliation can be changed on the day of the caucus. If disaffected Rethugs wanted they can cross over and mess with the program. I haven’t seen any effort that way, but if I was registered rethug, I would vote in the Democratic caucus given the abysmal Rethug candidates.
And if this happens, what D do you think they’d vote for? Keeping in mind that they have to speak openly for whoever they support.
Who is John Edwarsd?
I don’t recall having heard him mentioned in the MSM recently.
Oh, now I remember:
$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion
$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion
$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion
$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion$400 haircut 25,000sf mansion
I haven’t a clue but this happened historically in the 1980’s where many crossed over to vote for Gopher)(from Love Boat fame) to try to sink our then Gov Branstead, who gave back SCHIP money because of his philosophy.
Because they represent the grassroots political process in the country. They represent middle America untarnished by ‘coastal’ mentality and economy. Through their caucus process they are thrust into the nationwide limelight, and once every four years they reap the benefits of their every day commitment and energy to the prosperity of the country. At this time, they receive the accolades that are most often reserved for the other economic and political hubs of the country. It’s a midwestern thing. Perhaps you wouldn’t understand.
Your explanation is just what I was looking for to help me understand. Thanks. That’s why I asked.
Happy Holiday Hugs to all of you.
I got to drive my 25 percenter home last night as he pulled all the Hillary jokes out of his back pocket just for me. I bit my tongue still it bled. Better a bleeding tongue than wasted psych energy talking to a brick wall. I did get in a few licks about conserving gasoline. IE “What’s wrong with doing THAT?”
Otherwise one of the best holidays ever. I do have my fingers crossed here in California for Edwards.
So, we have Iowa to thank for 8 years of George W. Bush? ;)
(Just yanking your chain, kdh22…)
I do think given the head to head polling that the effort would be against Edwards because those numbers have him winning. If they could sink him in Iowa it could spell the end given his NH numbers
Hey, the Republics have a candidate named “Saint Michael Jesus Archangel”. (see http://politics1.com/p2008-gop.htm or http://www.archangelmichael.info/) He seems perfect for them. Why isn’t he leading?
Iowa is pretty much by definition rural. If he can take Iowa, he can be competitive.
A Reverse Lieberman? How unheard of…but miracles do happen?
“Saint Michael Jesus Archangel”
Say, wasn’t he one of Satan’s brothers?
Your narrative assumes that the Rs would switch soley with the intention of undermining the Ds. But when you introduced the possibility of switching, you said they might switch because of disatisfaction with their own candidates. Is it possible, then, they’d genuinely try to support the D candidate they think might be the prez they think would be least bad from their POV? Why try to torpedo the Ds to benefit Rs, none of whom you like?
FWIW, I agree.
I do know some info-lite voters who like the novelty of a woman candidate and will vote for her for that reason. Gotta expect some of that, I suppose. And some will vote against only for that reason, too. I’ll bet this has been discussed ad nauseum somewhere.
Just got off the phone with a pollster. I always ask which party they are polling for and the name and provenance of the organization? I have received no satisfactory answers and have refused to give my opinion until I know for whom it will be used. We Iowans do not buy a pig in a poke and take pride in our ability to cut through the BS. Thanks for the wonderful answer kdh22!
I agree with the analysis of Edward’s strength in Iowa. Traditional polling just doesn’t capture the true dynamics there. My concern is that he won’t have enough time to leverage an Iowa win into a great showing in NH. Hope I’m wrong.
I love the America Rising theme. It really resonates.
Hope you had agreat Christmas, Jane.
I guess you have captured all the possibilities. Perfect framing of the issue. Like I said earlier, I have not seen any effort this way.
Over the weekend talking to family members who are getting sick of pollsters, are starting to give answers that are not in line with voting intentions. Some of the polling may be getting gamed.
I do not like Steve Westly I think he is a crappy democrat. Even though Angelides might have lost to Gropper anyway, Westly made it worse.
This makes me think if Obama loses he will do nothing to help the ticket in Nov. I think he is a sore loser and a whinner and associates himself with folks who do just that.
I get confused when Obama is called a “reform candidate.” Compared to Edwards, Dodd, or Kucinich, I just don’t see the reform credentials. The oratory credentials peaked at the D convention lo those many years ago. The Senate record, even correcting for its brevity, does not particularly inspire. And the ideological association with M. Friedman is hard to square.
Jim
Please tell us about the number of Iowans who actually take part in the voting. Do you have a percentage? The person who wins Iowa usually comes out with the big MO but doesn’t always become the candidate. If he/she does, Iowa has had a huge impact.
I have often thought that people answer political polls in a way to send a message to the candidates. Not every time, but sometimes.
And Hillary is highly suspect to her cohort: middle- to upper-middle class professional (mostly white) women. Her base is lower- to lower-middle-class white and African-American women: the same base of the Oprah universe. That’s why Team Obama thought Oprah would help considerably in this respect. Oprah’s marketing strategy is to sell Obama to her constituents by saying that by voting for him, they would be voting for their own self-improvement.
In part, yes. But we can also thank Ken Blackwell, Diebold and Karl Rove et al. Having my chain yanked is what I live for :)
I think a lot of people are over-estimating Obama’s organization in Iowa and under-estimating Clinton’s.
Don’t forget she has Vilsack’s organization. It is a good one.
The young and the newbies, Obama’s strength, are notorious for not showing up on caucus night.
I’m very politically fortunate this year. I don’t give a care which of the two front runners wins. Obama or HRC. I’m beside myself w/excitement!
this is a lot of hooey
“And Hillary is highly suspect to her cohort: middle- to upper-middle class professional (mostly white) women. Her base is lower- to lower-middle-class white and African-American women: the same base of the Oprah universe. That’s why Team Obama thought Oprah would help considerably in this respect. Oprah’s marketing strategy is to sell Obama to her constituents by saying that by voting for him, they would be voting for their own self-improvement.”
Of course the bottom line is that the Republicans must be ejected from the WH. Prez Mittie. Prez Rudy. Pres Huck. Can you imagine?
The highly motivated attend. I will say that interest is the highest we have seen in ages, and that this media storm is the longest I have seen.
Still the number is disappointingly miniscule.
Obama also has the problem most of the student dorms are closed over the holidays. They would have a better chance of showing up if it what all back at school. Home for the holidays and the Orange bowl with friends might be a problem for him.
AP – President Bush, still voicing concern about special project spending by Congress, signed a $555 billion bill Wednesday that funds the Iraq war well into 2008 and keeps government agencies running through next September.
President Dodd or President Edwards. I’m having a “refreshing” moment.
Obama and Hillary “off the table”. Edwards and Dodd on.
I suggest some research into your hypothosis.
Edwards’ internal memo to Iowa supporters: Fighting for the Middle Class. (Seems to have gotten the message that it’s not just the poor who are in trouble.)
http://tpmelectioncentral.com/….._class.php
+1.
And more recess appointments for Chimpy till he permanently leaves the Oval Office in Janury ‘09:
hypothesis…
Finally. Thankfully.
What research? University of Iowa, University of Northern Iowa and Iowa State’s dorms are closed for the holidays. They have been closed for 25 years that I have been aware of. I work at the University of Iowa, if the Dorms are open this year I haven’t heard about it. Graduate Students and upper classman don’t usually live in dorms but I don’t think they are more likely to caucus or not this year.
Interesting post. I would discount ANYTHING Jerome says at this point because he has lost any credibility in my mind because of his factually incorrect posts concerning Obama. I really would like to see Edwards win, but I don’t think that will happen.
According to all my friends in Iowa…it will depend on the turnout at this point, and IF the College students really show-up.
It is to be hoped. (And a big Thank You to Jim Webb.)
And this, Webb at work:
(Same link as my 54.)
Thanks, Biodun. I’m passionate, but not always on top of my game.
I’m not gonna do it for you. Review the caucus rules if you really want to know.
Thank goodness for small blessings…
Kudos to Webb! I hope this has Chimpy steaming at Camp David. I wonder how he liked his cake this Chriastmas?
kdh22:
Do you live in Iowa? For some reason, I thought you live in TX…
my notoriously inaccurate crystal ball has been reporting it will be Edwards-Clinton-Obama in Iowa… it refuses to predict the R order…
I am not saying they can’t caucus. I am just saying that most of the student that live in the dorms will not make the effort to get back and find a place to stay just to caucus. Graduate students on the other hand can get very absorbed in research and forget to do other things that they may well have intended to do. Graduate students do things like that regularly. I work with them daily. The orange bowl is that night and some students may be watching football. This could be a problem for Obama. I am working to get some younger voters to go with me to the caucus. I prefer Edwards. I caucused for him last time.
American Research Group poll puts Ron Paul in double digits.
And away we go.
Better not to speak their names aloud except as punch lines.
If Ron Paul can be tricked into saying ‘luapnor’ three times, he will be returned to the 5th Dimension.
In NH or nationwide?
-G
Torquemada has been waging a strong right in campaign on the GOP side.
-G
P.S. Russia is selling a very advanced missile system to Iran.
Putin to Bush-look into my eyes now, mofo.
Lakoff on C-SPAN
This in the context that all politics is about a moral (right-wrong) decision, and there are no votes in the middle.
Biodun, do you have a link for that? She is suspect to me. But I wonder.
Kos has stunning racist quotes by Paul:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..639/426519
Lakkoff: Why do Ds surrender in advance?
Ron Paul. Feh. Don’t get me started on Ron frickin’ Paul.
From kos:
(Sorry Sunny, our comments crossed. Didn’t mean to steal your RP racist link.)
I am a Hillary supporter. I also like Obama and Edwards, just not as much as I like Hillary.
However after this primary season I can’t say I like some of the Obama/Edwards supporters on the progressive blogs. Many of the Obama/Edwards supporter diaries at Daily Kos remind me of the Republican attack machine and are not what I would expect to find on a progressive blog. In those diaries and elsewhere there is no exaggeration, misleading claim or outright falsehood that is too exteme as long a Hillary is the target.
It makes me wonder how these so-called progressives will walk back from their extremist attacks on Hillary if she wins the nomination. Maybe they won’t.
There is so much talent in my party (Dems). Why are we having to accept second best?
Bill Clinton failed — as in betrayed — the progressives who voted for him long before blowjobgate. Hil is Bill. Why would anyone expect progressives to treat Hil warmly?
This is well-known even in MSM. I can dig up more links, but here’s one:
Incidentally, the base that Hillary doesn’t have, her cohort (middle- to upper-middle-class white professional women) support Obama. Interesting, eh?
The Israelis felt safer after demonstrating their ability to hit targets in Syria and escape untouched. Now they’ll feel less safe, because it will be more difficult to hit Iran and escape untouched. Thus swings the pendulum of military might.
Shorter still:
5 letters
NAFTA
Sen. Haggis Specter is going to meet with Bashar Assad on Thursday.
Will Suzanne Malveaux complain that Specter is giving Bashar Assad a ‘big, wet kiss’?
Will the media call Specter a traitor for meeting with a dictator?
Inquiring minds…..
-G
Just imagine what’s going to happen once the Republics crank up their Clinton Hate Machine.
What we need very badly is a “peoples president”.
Alvord@77
Same can be said for the Hillary supporters. I think what you are feeling is the anger from those Obama-Edwards progressive supporters for being thrown under the bus by Big Dog in the 90’s, and now they are seeing the same ol’ hashed out by the Hillary campaign. Her talking points by Howard THE ROVE Wolfson have been horrendous. So……I wonder how the Hillary supporters and her campaign will walk back from their tactics if Edwards or Obama or someone else gets the nomination?
I’ve heard it said, and I guess I agree, that Hillary’s negatives can’t go any higher. So lettum crack away.
I am not worried about the Repugs, just the intemperate (to put it mildly) supporters of Obama/Edwards.
I would worry about the Repugs if I were you.
I am not talking about Obama/Edwards supporters who have legitimate policy differences with Hillary. I am talking about those supporters who for example, claim Hillary is a racist or who claim she wants to go to war with Iran.
By the way, your comparison of Howard Wolfson to Karl Rove would fit right into that category.
I can’t imagine Obama making a deal with Edwards at all–or Hillary.
Obama–and Hillary–are far too ego-driven, i think. Who else writes 2 autobiographies before even turning 50 and not having accomplished great deeds as Obama did?
i read that out of all the colleges there, only Grinnell (a small private school) is opening their gym as a makeshift dorm for caucusers.
I live right next door in IL. Went to school near the border between IL and IA. Used to drive to Burlington to drink legally while I was attending college in western Illinois. The driving back was always the tricky part LOL.
Damn, that’s some complicated shit.
Biodun, thanks. My personal experience differs, but I’m in a red place where everything is askew and I hadn’t seen the numbers segregated by status.
Hummm That’s cool. Glad you quoted it. The Paul supporter I talked with was young, black professional-type female. No way this could sit well..
Do you still live in northwest Illinois? I’m in Galena. Would love to know if there are other FDL’rs nearby for get togethers. Maybe could join with Chicagoland people as well.
related–Patriotboy/Jesus’ General gets serious: Obama and Clinton are not our friends –
http://patriotboy.blogspot.com…..iends.html
I’m in central IL now.
Oh well kdh22, it’s such an uphill struggle here in deep red territory, I was hoping. I have dem allies here, but not FDL’rs. Did you go to University of Dubuque, Loras or Clarke?
In NH or nationwide?
In Iowa.
“[Iowans] represent middle America untarnished by ‘coastal’ mentality and economy.”
That’s certainly the CW, but it’s outrageous nonsense. Living on one of the coasts doesn’t leave a “tarnish” or provide a “coastal mentality,” whatever that means. People living on the coasts are regular people just like those living in the middle of the country. Your offensive idea above is one step away from “latte-sipping, effete liberal” smears — and it’s bunk.
I don’t think he’s going to go easy in any state. I think he’s going to try to sweep all the states!