(Please welcome General Wesley Clark, A Time to Lead: For Duty, Honor and Country author of in the comments -- jh)
And they did. They really did. They stood up, men from South Texas and the Bronx and Kansas and California, in a firefight in a jungle in Southeast Asia. Men who had been plucked out of their lives, threatened with jail if they refused, some who held master's degrees, others who hadn't finished the tenth grade, they were firing from the hip and the shoulder, a dozen men, moving into the jungle to sweep what turned out to be a small enemy base camp. This was my company. These were my men. And I was still flat on my face, struggling to keep the medic off of me so I could direct the fighting.
Wes Clark's memoir, A Time to Lead: For Duty, Honor, and Country, is an extremely readable book that wrestles honestly with deep themes about politics, international strategy, and the nature of leadership. It's the story of General Wes Clark, an irrepressibly optimistic man who believes in leadership, the U.S. Army, and the ability of energetic groups of people with integrity to get things done. Clark's love is the army and the people in it, and he wrote this book because he believes that America is not having the honest dialogue necessary about our place in the world. By intellectual training and professional background, Clark is a strategist who has sat at the intersection of the military, diplomacy and policy-making since his time at Vietnam. Right now, the army is bearing the brunt of our national choices, while the country at large gives up "very little", which is illustrative of the larger problem America faces when we do not make hard choices or exercise the extraordinary leadership we are so capable of. The story he tells of his life is meant to illustrate how to make these hard choices, and how to lead.
Clark grew up poor in Little Rock, Arkansas, as his father died of a heart attack when he was four, forcing his mother to move back to Little Rock to live with her parents as a working single mother. She eventually remarried to a somewhat emotionally unbalanced man, who became his new father. Much of his early life is exactly what you'd expect of a boy growing up in Little Rock at that time; Clark saw prejudice in its most raw form, in the fight between Governor Orval Faubus and the Federal government in 1957 over desegregating Central High School in Little Rock. And Clark had different attitudes about race than his parents, ones that would come out later in his experience in the military and in politics. Overall, Sputnik, public schools, racism, and athletics, as well as the warmth of a mother's love, were the guiding forces of his Southern flavored childhood. Swimming and school were the hallmarks of Clark's life in Arkansas, and he tells one episode of his vaguely cruel and inspiring swim coach, Jimmy Miller, forcing him to excel an reach his full potential through public humiliation. Clark's desire to excel, and to coach others to excel, is a constant theme in the book.
A Time to Lead is in many ways about the various experiences of forced growth and discipline Clark went through. He learned to be a soldier at West Point, with the incredible hazing and pressure at first and then the ability to lead later on. Teamwork, self-discipline, and competitiveness were overlaid onto a process of breaking down egos and forcing genuine authenticity and commitment to public service and the military. At West Point, Clark describes how to was made very clear that part of the job of a soldier was to kill, a profoundly heavy responsibility for teenagers on their way to becoming men. At college, Clark earned a Rhodes Scholarship, met his wife, and determined to dedicate himself to international relations and larger strategic through his commitment to the 'profession of arms'.
Clark is of the West Point class of 1966 which saw 31 members killed in Vietnam. Unlike most of his class, he did not go right away, spending a few years at Oxford studying and defending American involvement in Vietnam in an increasingly anti-war and anti-American environment. After Oxford, he went off to fight in the war he defended. As the leader of a mechanized company, he was severely wounded. As he tells it, while in the jungle, he came under a hail of gunfire, and one of his men, specialist Mike McClintic saved his life by knocking him to the ground, "becoming my hero for all time." And yet, even as he was being airlifted out of the combat zone, riddled with bullet holes, Clark thought of his three year old son and his wife, and reflected on how good life can be. Vietnam really colored Clark's sense of the military, and his own sense of self.
In many ways, Vietnam really envelopes Clark's whole life, as it was at war, in a military becoming progressively weaker, that Clark learned about the necessity of leadership and positive progress. Accepting honest feedback, open engagement with real problems, preparation, and genuine authoritative decision-making were keys to leadership that worked. Without those, he saw that units would and did fail under fire. These principles would serve him well for the next thirty years.
After Vietnam, Clark became one of many young leaders in transitioning the military to an all-volunteer force and rebuilding its somewhat shattered credibility and discipline. The military has a fascinating system for integrating its brightest young leaders into decision-making roles, swinging them through high level civilian positions so they can understand politics and policy-making. Clark went through this system during the 1970s, veering back and forth from an active military commands in the Army to highly political policy-oriented positions. But first he revisited the lessons of Vietnam. While frustrated with civilian hostility to the military, which had only deepened since his time at Oxford, Clark was forced to revisit his institutional loyalty to decision-makers when he had to write a review of David Halberstam's The Best and the Brightest, and was confronted with the stubborn refusal of military officials to accept criticism. He served at Fort Leavenworth, where he began work on a set of strategic ideas that would later become the basis of the Powell doctrine, and then served as a White House fellow at the Office of Management and Budget in the Ford White House, under Chief of Staff Don Rumsfeld and his deputy, Dick Cheney. He served in Germany, and then as speechwriter to Alexander Haig, the Supreme Allied Commander.
In the 1980s, he moved on to important posts at Fort Cheyenne, the National Training Center, and then built the a Combat Training Center for division and corps commanders. Rebuilding the warfighting capacity of the military was linked to his time crafting these training facilities, where Clark created training simulations so military commanders could fight mock battles and learn from them. This is Clark's genius, the ability to create what he calls a 'change engine' within extremely large institutions, and he makes suggestions throughout the book about how lessons he's learned in the army can be cross-applied to governance, including scenarios like disaster assistance, nonmilitary intervention, and legal breakdowns. Clark's leadership throughout the military, and his ability to rethink traditional institutional boundaries and learn from failure, are genuinely revolutionary concepts that he was able to successfully apply. If there is any hope of adapting to climate change or dealing with vast economic inequalities, it will be through internalizing and spreading the concepts Clark was able to bring to the military. Clark's leadership of a volunteer army forced him to think through traditional social issues, including schooling and health care; as a commander in a peacetime army, he dealt with problems as varied as training materials, new weapon systems, and gang activity among the children of military personnel. And at every stage, he underscores the lessons of West Point and the importance of leadership.
The last part of the book involves Clark's move from management of military affairs to his ascension into the highest level of geopolitics. In 1994, Clark became the Director of Strategic Plans and Policy in the Pentagon under the Joint Chiefs, serving as the bridge between the national security planning process, the UN, and Capitol Hill. He had known Bill Clinton briefly at college, which immediately made him a target of partisan Republican attacks, and as he was in the hot seat coordinating strategy, the constant crises - Haiti, Rwanda, North Korea, the Balkans, and the Middle East - he got a fast-track introduction to DC. Though he was a nonpartisan military officer, Clark's earlier politics seemed organized around Republican 'grown-ups', people like Alexander Haig and Colin Powell. His wife even volunteered in the office of Kay Bailey Hutchinson. To me, it reads like his thinking began to shift when he came to DC, though his real political movement did not take place until much later. Clark's search for an overarching national strategy was constrained by an extremely partisan environment and a lack of funding for any agency except the military, which had become the go-to body for nearly all foreign policy activities. It was during this period that Clark, though he pushed internally for action in Rwanda, failed to generate the necessary action to stop the genocide, something that he would later remember in the Balkans. In his DC position, he began to understand his later opponent Milosevic, and worked with Dick Holbrooke, Tony Lake, and Defense Secretary Perry on the emerging NATO mission in the region.
Before the capstone episode of Clark's military career - the conflict with Milosevic - Clark was promoted to a position as Commander in Chief (CINC), US Southern Command, responsible for our military presence in much of Central and South America, where he continued to develop broader thematic ideas about the principled American strategy in a post-Cold War world. He oversaw the counter-narcotics mission, and began working closely with John Negroponte on tighter relations with Panama. It was a relatively short deployment, and Clark offers few real details as to what he did, but he was shortly returned to Europe at the CINC, US European Command and NATO Supreme Allied Commander. Clark's exploits in this position are more fully described in his other books, Waging Modern War and Winning Modern Wars, but he does discuss in great details the intersection between diplomacy, force, and personal relationships.
The defining constraint of Clark's work in the Balkans was his dual loyalty as NATO commander and as a high level American military officer. He had two chains of command, responsive to both a large group of countries and their leaders, as well as operating under the American Commander-in-Chief. He offers an explanation as to why American won this war. Without a clear and aggressive ability to ratchet up pressure on Milosevic through a targeted bombing campaign, strong NATO legitimacy underscored by humanitarian assistance and clear defensive aims, strong effort to hold down civilian casualties, minimal initial force, admission of mistakes, and adherence to international law, the war would not have been won. And not a single American soldier was lost. There's some revisionist history around the Kosovo conflict, and Clark does take a nice dig at Michael O'Hanlon's arguments, but the bottom line is that it was an extraordinarily successful approach compared to Iraq or any other modern American war.
After Kosovo, politics took over Clark's life entirely. He was retired early from the military, three months before his tour was finished. Though he doesn't describe the internal politics in any details, it's clear that this was a significant episode for him. As he moved into business, and began exploring his post-military public service options, 9/11 happened, and he was told by an Atlanta Republican that the Republicans would be dominant for because of the crisis, and he ought to join up: "If you ever want to be elected to office, you better become one of us, because we're going to be in charge for a very long time". This was repulsive to Clark, and as he saw the horrific strategic missteps of Bush in Iraq, he became first a Bush opponent and then a Democrat. Iraq serves as a nice metaphor for a conflict that has ignored all the lessons he had wracked up in his life, about leadership, running military outfits, strategy, and the moral stature of the country. But Iraq isn't all that moved Clark's political loyalties. The three interrelated challenges we face - terrorism, the rise of China, and powerful global issues like disease, human rights poverty, and climate change - are ignored or actively made worse by the policies of this administration.
Clark recounts his Presidential his campaign, run by Eli Segal and Mark Fabiani (yes, that Fabiani), in the context of his ideas for America and his belief that the neoconservative framework of 'smashing states' needs to be repudiated. He was drafted into the race by a 'din' on the internet, as well as calls from luminaries like Charlie Rangel and Jimmy Carter who saw him as an establishment alternative to Dean. Clark discusses the fateful decision not to compete in Iowa, claiming that it was against his instinct but that the decision was leaked to the press and became a fait accompli. The campaign tried to do too much too fast, and when Kerry beat Dean in Iowa, the rationale for Clark over Dean fell apart. I happened to be in Little Rock at the time that decision was made, and that seems to me to be an accurate analysis.
The book closes with Clark's idea on American strategy going forward. He offers a view of American power in which we engage seriously and systematically with the rest of the world, focus on more equitable development, aggressive moves to limit carbon emissions, and work towards a new consensus on human rights and and intervention. Politically, Clark hopes for a less partisan future with fewer personal attacks and more substantive debate between candidates. He believes the American people are ready for this new kind of leadership, one that recognizes the historic turning point before us and allows us to come together in a crisis. Everything he's seen in his life suggests that with the right kind of leadership we can rise to meet any challenge.
Ok, so that's the book, in a nutshell. It's worth reading, and real consideration. Lots of Very Serious and Important people write memoirs, but few of them are so connected both to powerful elite circles of decision-makers and the netroots itself, and have such a great track record of executing on their ideas. Clark didn't, of course, win the Presidency in 2004, but he did inspire a range of people to become involved in the political process that are building the tools we use today. For instance, Ben Rahn, one of the founders of Actblue, was a Clarkie, as was Lowell Feld, the founder of RaisingKaine. Digby was a Clarkie, as was I. And so reading Wes Clark's latest book, a Time to Lead, was a very personal experience for me. It was Clark who brought me into politics in 2002, who inspired me to believe that a different model of politics was possible through genuine leadership. Clark, like Dean, is part of the netroots as one of the first real internet candidates on the left. Like many internet political acolytes, he started out as a relatively apolitical figure who believed that professionalism mattered. He has become radicalized by the conservative movement and then the Bush administration, and began to take our political problems very seriously. In this bucket I'd throw Jane Hamsher, Glenn Greenwald, Wes Boyd of Moveon, Joan Blades, Eli Pariser, Markos, Duncan Black, and James Rucker of Color of Change, as well as many of us who read this site every day and whole host of other frustrated and disaffected professionals throughout the government, the military, and the business community.
So it's important to understand what Clark, as probably our most prominent champion in decision-making circles, really believes. But as I've grown and matured politically, I'm beginning to understand that I have some questions and possible disagreements with his framework. They are at this point mostly instinctive, because I haven't had time to flesh them out systemically. I would characterize them as threefold. One, how do we deal with systematic bad faith within the political environment? Two, what is the role of ordinary citizens in leading change? And three, how do we handle bad faith among political leaders themselves?
In terms of question one, it seems that the level of twisted bad faith in the political system is quite severe, and cannot be repudiated without intense domestic political debate. This will not be high-minded, and it will not be based on facts, it will be and is organized around the dishonest tactics of the neoconservative and Republican revolutionaries and their wealthy conservative backers. Clark is a strategist, and I would like to see him think through the organization of a systemic 'change engine' for the corruption in our political system similar to his work at the National Training Center. After all, we're reality-based, and we know that just putting out facts and substance does not work to repair this bad faith environment. What does?
On question two, Clark confines his discussions to the the military world, the diplomatic world, political decision-makers and the business world. Left out is, well, us. What is the role of ordinary citizens in crafting the new American strategy? His arguments about leadership make a great deal of sense in the context of existing institutional arrangements, but where does, say, the antiwar sentiment within the public fit? Why has there been so little effective antiwar leadership among elite decision-makers, but also, among citizens at large? Why were Americans at large so passive, and why is there such passivity in the face of over torture and episodes of gang-rape among military contractors? What is the role of the new citizen-enabled activism on the internet that has pushed the debate, and how can it be integrated into existing institutional arrangements?
On question three, what does a real response to the current crisis of political liberalism look like? What happens when certain military and political elites lose their legitimacy within the public at large? Clark is a very experienced man, and he grew up in a bipartisan consensus age, when Sputnik galvanized mass action around education, and Republicans and Democrats agreed on a bipartisan strategy of engagement and Cold War. Clark knows that we face something different today, domestically, as there are real disagreements within the country at large about the nature of our engagement with the rest of the world. Republicans genuinely believe that engagement with the rest of the world through strategic restraint and international cooperation weakens us; many Democrats agree. And systemic bad faith arguments are levied at the American public about torture, military contracting, and national security, with complicity in this dishonest dialogue at high levels. What is the strategy to deal with this? Why can't we call liars liars? I encountered this question in my interview with Clark about the Petraeus flap, when I asked him what individuals who felt Petraeus was being dishonest should do. His answer suggested that he thought of Moveon as a small group of decision-makers, instead of an organization run by a small group of people but deriving its fundamental legitimacy from 3 million people, most of whom probably do feel that way. There is broad public bitterness at the decision-makers in the military, the business community, and in the political system who enable our current inequitable power arrangements that Clark himself calls 'the new segregation'. What does an effective response to these bad faith actors look like?
I'm honored to know Clark, and to have the opportunity to discuss his book and his extraordinary life experiences today. I cannot describe just how much his thoughts and leadership have inspired me and many of the people that operate in this new progressive movement. One of the bright spots of the next administration, if it is Democratic, will be Wes Clark as a cabinet member. Please welcome him to the FDL community for this fascinating chat!
Oh, and buy his book!
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Welcome, Wes…
I have a family member who was in Desert Storm and he didn’t end up seeing any serious action. He told me it was because almost all of the Iraqi soldiers his unit encountered just surrendered. They’d been out in the field for a long time. They were tired and hungry, and they knew that the Americans wouldn’t hurt them. They knew they’d be fed and given a place to sleep and they wouldn’t be harmed.
It seems to me that that war would have been very different if our current policies with regard to treatment of prisoners had been in place. Do you think that our current policies have taken away the incentive to surrender? How do you think our present conflicts have been effected by the fear of being tortured?
Welcome General Clark, and thank you Matt for a great intro. We really appreciate you both being here today.
RegNYC, that is a great question!
Welcome, Wes!
Welcome General Clark.
Are you proud of bombing the Serbs, and if so, why?
If the Republicans were to select John McCain who seems to be regaining traction and is perceived as having strong military/foreign policy/national security credentials, do you believe that the Democratic ticket would be crippled by someone (like Obama) not having strong credentials in that area?
If Hillary is the Democratic nominee and McCain is the Republican nominee, do you believe that it would be beneficial for HRC to select a VP with exceptional military and foreign policy experience (for example, someone like a former Supreme Allied Commander Europe)?
McCain has made it fairly clear that he favors endless war in the Middle East including starting a new war with Iran, so would this be the major point of debate between him and the Democratic nominee and how could HRC exploit this more effectively that Obama?
Thank you for your inspiring example, General. You have shaped my life in fairly profound ways (for me, anyway).
General: What do you think of Kosovo’s imminent declaration of independence?
Good afternoon, General Clark. Thank you for your service to our country. I heard you speak at the science seminar at Yearly Kos I and I used to enjoy hearing your analysis on CNN before you ran for president. Are you appearing regularly on any of the networks now?
Thanks, Jane, for this wonderful forum and for allowing me the honor of writing this introduction!
Hello General Clark,
Since you’ve endorsed Hillary Clinton I wonder how you now defend her vote on Kly/Lieberman since days before in several radio interviews you said you were uneasy with that bill. I also wonder if you defend her admitting she would use torture in some hypothetical worst case scenario.
Thanks very much to FireDogLake for hosting me! I’m excited to be here.
Biodun, I think Kosovo must declare independence, and I hope that all of Europe as well as the U.S. will support them.
Gen. Clark. Would you consider accepting a position in a Democratic administration. Say like Sec. of Defense or State?.
An earlier birthday greeting for you General Clark. Best wishes for wonderful year.
I enjoyed your book very much, and just wrapped a copy that I’m giving for Christmas. The part about your journey with Gert in Morgan had me laughing aloud. Well, until that dastardly accident.
My favorite of your books remains Waging Modern War which brings us to the subject of Kosova. From what I’ve been reading, events in that country are leading to trouble. I understand that Solana has plans to have the EU take over the situation. Could you share your thoughts?
General Clark, congratulations on your book.
Do you see a career in politics ahead of you? Would you consider the vice presidency should it be offered? Would you consider running for president again, in the future, should the opportunity present itself?
In your recent interview on wnyc’s Brian Lehrer show* you made several statements that astonished me. Particularly your aggressive stand vis-a-vis Iran. It sounds like think that their president has more power than he has, and that you are unaware that his statement about Israel was mistranslated, and that his rhetoric is directed toward his internal audience for political reasons, not too different from President Bush’s “Bring em on,” or “with us or against us.” From whom are you getting your information on Iran?
* http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/episodes/2007/11/28
Hello General Clark,
An economics related question here, I just finished reading Paul Krugman’s book, The Consicience of a Liberal. In it he believes for us to survive as a nation at this troubled point, we need a new New Deal. The pillar of that would be universal health care for everybody. He goes on to say that trying to be bipartisan at this point in time won’t work. We are going to have to have a very partisan time to get results, as in the days of FDR and then we may be able to move to more bipartisanship as happened in the time of Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson (even Nixon to a point). What do you think?
Thanks for that answer, General. And Happy Birthday to you, sir.
Mango, they are a terrorist group. Torture is unnecessary and unlawful. We won’t do it and we shouldn’t do it.
Re Kosovo: Under what conditions will the Serbs be less disturbed about Kosavar independence, and what will the Serbs do if these conditions are not met?
Welcome General Clark!
Since your military experiences were colored (I assume) by your Vietnam service, how do you think the current generation of senior officers (O-6 and above) were swayed by their experiences in Lebanon, Panama, Grenada and all the other brush fires of the ’80s and ’90s? Do you think they possibly became over-confident and were thus incapable of saying no and explaining WHY the Iraq mis-adventure was wrong?
neurophius, I’m an analyst for MSNBC.
Reg — I have some dear friends who were West Point grads whose first service as officers was in the first Gulf War, and who had very similar experiences. I can remember one in particular telling me the story of how starved the Iraqi soldiers were — to the point that one officer tried to eat some Chapstick they had given him for his dried and cracked lips because he thought it was some sort of food since it smelled like fruit. That story really stuck with me, because it was so divergent from what we had been lead to believe about the vaunted military that Saddam was supposed to have after the Iran/Iraq War. It was as though, somehow, we had failed up update our thought process from the Rummy visits to Iraq in the 1980s.
And then we continued to fail to do that into the Bush Administration…
Welcome Home General Clark
MJ
1st Sig RVN 68-69
1/79 Arty, 7th ID Korea 67-78
You remain an inspiration.
Gen. Clark — Welcome to FDL — good to have you here for a discussion. And, as always, great to see you, Matt!
What do you think of Iran’s offer of a Grand Bargain in 03, and their current offer to remove uranium enrichment to Switzerland. (Assume that’s generic to move it out of country.)
I think the lack of Vietnam experience delayed the army’s adoption of effective counter-insurgency tactics. I think that they were responsive to the orders of the SecDef as they’re required to be. And Rumsfeld failed to understand the situation and give adequate/proper guidance.
What, if anything, needs to be changed about NPT? Iran is allowed to enrich uranium under NPT. Are you against this provision of the treaty?
I think that actions of some units created enemies and resistance in the current operation, but we’re doing better now.
Let’s stay on the topic of the book, please.
Why?
Jane, thanks very much for having me here today!
It’s a flattering question, but I haven’t actually worked through that issue. It’s a little premature. First, Democrats have to pick a nominee, and then we have to win.
There has been discussion about replacing the NATO force by an EU force. I’m inclined against that at this point. It could come later.
General Clark, in your opinion would a military officer be within their rights to disobey an order to waterboard a prisoner-of-war for the reason that it was an unlawful order?
Gen. Clark - I have had a series of questions about the conduct that military folks have had to face between the rules and regs of the UCMJ with regard to prisoner treatment, ethics and all the other ethical and legal conduct guidelines which we’ve lined out over the years — and what they are being asked to do by civilian leadership in the Bush Administration and the DOD. I know what the UCMJ says in terms of refusing to follow an illegal order, but I’d love to hear your thoughts on how an officer or an enlisted soldier realistically can deal with that level of pressure coming at them from the political types and from intel folks, along with the peer pressure.
It seems like a very difficult Catch-22 position in which troops have found themselves the last few years. Charlie Savage’s recent reporting about a behind-the-scenes maneuver to gut the JAG officers (since scuttled due to public scrutiny) was a big heads up for me that the Bush Administration hasn’t change their behavior, they’ve just gotten better at trying to hide it. Any thoughts on all of this would be very much appreciated.
Well, it’s certainly an honor to even be in the same discussion as General Wes Clark!
I’d like his opinion on my observation;
I believe the INTENTION of this administration is TO break the army.
I believe the very purpose of this group of people is the privatization of all government services.
I think they WANT to over extend our armed forces, they WANT us obligated into using mercenaries.
It’s the brown shirt all over again, it’s the privatization of everything, they WANT private education, private insurance for ALL catastrophes, they WANT private fire departments, they WANT private police, they HATE any social project, THEY HATE GOVERNMENT
I conclude, the over extending of our armed forces is a deliberate strategy to force us into dependence on private mercenaries
and these will be the private mercenaries of their choosing, black water, and haliburton.
I believe someone of your back round needs to raise this alarm, that our military is under attack and under siege, that the very design, the very purpose is to destroy the armed forces of the United States of America
Why have generals been willing to lie for President Bush and what does this indicate about the quality of the U.S. military?
I agree that health care has become perhaps the defining issue in the Democratic campaign so far. On the other hand, there are economic concerns that could overshadow even health care as an issue affecting ordinary Americans. I do believe that we must resolve the health care situation so that every American can have access to quality health care, including preventive and diagnostic care. However, I don’t believe history ever repeats itself exactly. What we need is a national strategy to strengthen America’s competitiveness in a global economic environment. And for that, we really do need all Americans to be roughly on the same team.
How applicable was our counterinsurgency effort in the Nam since we were facing a sophisticated resupply system down the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Do you see Iran as an equivalent of the Chinese and Soviets in terms of weapons and ordinance?
Also, related to my previous question, the actions that have undermined the rule of law and our commitment to human rights — Guantanimo, Abu Ghraib and so many others — stem from poorly advised and conceived choices at the highest levels of the Bush Administration. How do we correct those errors and restore America’s commitment to lawful and ethical conduct both right now and into the future? How many generations is this likely to take, in your mind?
Thanks for your service and the kind words. We’re all in it together.
Thanks for the direction, Jane, let me re-phrase my question.
General Clark,
I have read your book. I always enjoy reading about the times in which you grew up and the impact your early life experiences had on you as well as those in your government service. Having lived through the years of FDR, Truman, Eisehower, Kennedy, Johnson and Nixon, do you think we need to have a strong correction from the way our country has been run from the right to a Democratic president and veto proof majority of Democrats in congress and 60 Democratic senators, to push through all the changes that must be made for us to survive as a nation, before we can return to a time when people can return to bipartisanship and civility, like happened even during the days of Reagan and Tip O’Neil?
I recently heard that you wanted to bomb the airport at Pristina after the Russians took it over, and that it took a near-mutiny on the part of the Brits to stop you. Is that accurate, and if so, what do you think the consequences of a NATO bombing of a Russian controlled airport might have been, if you’d had you way?
It’s great to be here!
this in my opinion is kind to say the least
I believe what Rumsfeld did was deliberate, I believe he knew his strategy was doomed, I believe they deliberately undermined any strategy that might have had a chance of success
they didn’t want to succeed, they didn’t want to “win the hearts and minds” if they did they would have protected their infrastructure, they would have given the rebuilding resources to the Iraqi’s and not to their pals at haliburton
they knew they needed more manpower, more equipment, and they knew they needed to protect the infrastructure
winning the hearts and minds of the native population means you DO NOT keep active their facilities of torture, you do NOT turn a secular government into a region by region theocracy, these are decisions deliberately intended to create unrest
if we were to write a novel using the decisions of Rumsfeld, it would be to far fetched that we didn’t see his “strategy” was a deliberate effort to undermine success
sorry, a person cannot possibly be that inept and still be able to walk and talk at the same time
I think that we should be talking to Iran on this and other issues. We should investigate their offers and develop a deeper understanding of their interests and motivations.
Many U.S. analysts already have a deep understanding of Iran and their issues. Who among them have you talked to, and what have they told you?
General Clark’
How would you classify the danger of an Iran with nuclear weapons? How much should the US risk to stop them from acquiring them? Is it worth another war?
Thanks
I’ve been concerned about this issue. I think the troops and the CIA were given an erroneous legal opinion - one that would have been rejected by any disinterested jurist. The US has appeared to be quite hypocritical - we’ve charged people in the past for following orders and said that, “Just following orders” is no excuse. On the other hand, it’s clear that the onus of responsibility belongs at the top. I hope Congress will do its duty, and demand a full investigation.
So you don’t believe that the problems at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay come down from the administration?
Thank you for answering my question. I agree that we all need to be in this together. Just wondering on the leadership strategy on how to get there from here.
Many U.S. analysts already have a deep understanding of Iran and its issues. Who among those do you talk to and what do they tell you?
If we are to have universal health care, do you believe that the taxpayers funding that system have a right to demand certain responsible behavior on the part of the consumers of that system. For example, smoking is a highly preventable activity that costs our health care system about $65 billion annually. Some employers (like Cleveland Clinic Hospital system) are not even hiring smokers (with tests to prove non-smoking behavior) in attempts to reign in health care costs. Could a national health care plan be acceptable that would require certain behavorial changes in exchange for coverage under such a plan?
I tend to see the situation a little differently. I think the administration is caught in its own trap of using the military and using the military ineffectively for too long. No doubt some of their supporters and others have made serious money in the contracting business, but I haven’t seen the evidence to pursuade me that the administration would deliberately break the Army. That’s a lot farther than I’d be willing to go.
No, I do believe that.
What evidence would it take to convince you?
What you heard is NOT accurate.
Mahalo, Gen. Clark, for being here today! I served twenty years myself, 10 USA and 10 HI-ARNG! My boys have just been alerted again for deployment to Iraq! My question to you is, how do you reconcile the Powell doctrine, of which we broke it, we have to fix it, into the current political quagmire? Do we remain indefinately, or can we attempt an orderly withdrawal…?
I think that Iranian nuclear weapons certainly present a problem for the US and the region. I’ve said that we need to take all necessary measures to prevent their acquiring of such weapons.
wes - i haven’t read your book yet, but matt’s description makes me want to.
lots of questions, i’ll start with the political: why did you think it was so important to oppose dean ?
Not yet. Iran has different motivations.
Well I’d prefer to hear that report is not accurate from General Clark. But in the meantime, do you have a link?
Now that you see what is involved with campaigning with HRC in Iowa, do you believe it would have been possible for you to mount an effective campaign in Iowa in 2003/2004 if you hadn’t received contrary advice from your staff back then?
They’re already winning in Iraq. They want to maneuver us out in a way that doesn’t result in our striking their country.
Under what circumstances would you recommend bombing Iran?
in that case, I defer to your superior knowledge and opinion and will give the benefit of my doubt to your interpretation of these events
at least for until the next discovery of inept decision, then I might have to retake my original opinion
I think it can be done in a few years with the right leadership in the United States. We just need strong leaders that are commited to doing the right thing.
Geez, either tooobz are acting weird or mods are censoring me.
Good afternoon,
Even as the recession deepens if would be best for America to follow Britain’s example of giving its citizens universal health care immediately following WWII. It was abundantly clear that the strength, determination and resilience of the British people to withstand the bombing helped save the British nation.
That seems pretty boilerplate. Can you expand what you mean by “strong” leaders (i.e. do you mean leaders willing to bomb?) and what do you mean by “right thing?”
Do you believe that ‘radical Islam’ is more likely to acquire nuclear weapons via development in Iran or through the fall of Pakistan which already has nuclear weapons? Will Al-Qaeda continue to be granted safe harbor in NW Pakistan until they destablize that country for their own benefit?
Well, Rumsfeld deliberately refused to follow the Powell doctrine. That was a mistake. But I do believe that it will be possible to commence a withdrawal, and within a reasonable time get our troops out.
I think it might be done in a few years, IF the right thing is done, this is not however likely
we are no longer seen as fair brokers of any treaty or negotiation, we are seen as lawless despots aquiring the treasure of continents to satisfy a the few alite
the right things that need to be done would be to recognize the criminals and bring them to the bar of justice
sad to say, this is not going to happen in a few years no matter who is elected
therefore, it will likely take a generation…imho
{osted this once, but did not appear. Will try again. I’d prefer an answer from Gen. Clark, but in the meantime, can you provide a link?
I think the administration is caught in its own trap of using the military and using the military ineffectively for too long. No doubt some of their supporters and others have made serious money in the contracting business, but I haven’t seen the evidence to pursuade me that the administration would deliberately break the Army. That’s a lot farther than I’d be willing to go.
It seems to me that at this point, the burden of proof is in showing that they aren’t deliberately doing this, not on others to show that they are.
Gen.Clark, welcome, as you can see by the questions here today, they are all aware of many situations that the Bush Admin. inflicted upon our once Great Country for the last 7 yrs. The older embedded personnel and yourself have been subverting our Constitution and Military for the last 40yrs stong. We know the ones that should be arrested, held lawyers up at the Hegue and placed in a cell for a very long time for Treason, wrapped in the American Flag. I am ashamed for what damage and crimes our country has done to it’s own people and the people around the globe. I want to let them all know, this was done, not in my name. I want to tell the world we are sorry, I want our military to stand down, leave all foreign soils and return home to recupe and reforce on OUR COUNTRY, our boarders, our infastruture, our people. Let the rest of the World Heal for the wounds we have inflicted upon them. Peace, Love, Health and Happiness to you and yours…
Or follow Shinseki’s advice of 250,000 troops at the outset…
Yes.
Through the fall of Pakistan. THere’s an active struggle underway inside Pakistan. The outcome has yet to be decided, but I’d be very surprised to see al Qaeda destabalize the country
I think I do agree with that point of view, how’s the saying go?
“fool me once…errr….CAN’T BE FOOLED AGAIN”
or something like that
Gen Clark, It is my belief that the military of the US is way too large and certainly over extended being based in 193 countries.
Do you believe we need to maintain such a huge OFFENSIVE military and have so many off shore bases? WHY
Can we not take a smarter and more DIPLOMATIC approach to world affairs than the SHOCK AND AWE that the military is so fond of?
If the down ticket under Clinton does not add up for a Dem majority and it appears the general election will not favor her many people would like to see you support the Democratic ticket would you do that?
I think that provision needs to be tightened up and eventually replaced by international enrichment authorities.
from matt: “he wrote this book because he believes that America is not having the honest dialogue necessary about our place in the world”.
wes - something that’s always bothered me is the term “national interest.” it sounds like it’s being used as a code word for something, but i don’t know exactly what that is (maybe it’s different for each person who uses it). i think this has gotten in our way of having the honest dialogue you advocate. would you tell us what you mean, specifically, when you use the term? what do you think our national interests are? and what actions are we justified in taking in pursuit of them. please be as specific as you can (examples would be great). thanks.
General Clark with all due respect to your profession, don’t you think mankind has had enough warfare solutions to its problems? When will we have a warrior to admits that this is the MIC and power thirsty people who KEEP the military in power, who keep THEM in power and this is sucking the resources of many societies.
Haven’t we has enough?
I’m familiar with Ahmadinejad’s statements and motives. Iran is in the midst of a power struggle, and that’s not likely to change in the near term. It’s a very difficult state to deal with. In most times, and in most states, foreign policy reflects domestic politics. That doesn’t mean statements shouldn’t be taken seriously.
General Clark, a great honor to have you here at FDL.
Re NPT, you said
My Q: Nobody’s talking about this. How would you make it happen?
*Enrichment is allowed under NPT, and Iran in under complete compliance with NPT, including hot & cold running inspecters, as near as I can determine.
General, I have a rather silly question that perhaps you can shed some light on. I too am a former military officer (Navy, sorry) and a life-long unapologetic Democrat and blogger for year (ask Stoller…). Anyhow, you are undoubtedly tied in to the men (and women) who constitute the “senior” military leadership of this country. Historically, they have been classified as “Republican” for generations, do you see this ending now in light of the politicization of DoD (like everything else) or is there a feeling that as long as they “toe the line” they’ll get “theirs” in retirement (beltway bandit jobs, board appointments etc…)?
I’m curious because I had the feeling that Our Glorious Leader via Rumsfeld and Cheney was starting to disgust flag officers and even down to 0-6 with their disregard for men like GEN Shinseki. Any truth to that thought?
Still read all my WesPac emails… WesPac, too funny (to a sailor, anyhow)
Thanks to Matt for the brilliant introduction, to FDL and the community for hosting General Clark, and to General Clark who is the reason I got involved in politics back in 2003. You’re an inspiration and a true leader and dammit, I wish you would have run again! :/
No questions, just a huge thank you and hugs for your life of service to us and our country! (And an early Happy Birthday wish!)
Selise,
WOW that is a great question. National Interest - another code word for free market capital interests, ie resources, energy, labor markets, shipping lanes etc.
While we have interest in a sound economy we need to call a spade a spade because the main beneficiary of the se “national interests” is ALWAYS corporations and their shareholders.
We all DO have an interest in being able to drive a car, for example, but every mile means corporate profit doesn’t it?
What place in the world is there that you HAVE NOT visited and would like to share with Gert?
I think Hillary at the top of the ticket will make for strong support of Democrats across the country.
So if you don’t take Ahmedinnerjacket’s statements literally, how do you deal with “a very difficult state?”
BTW, I disagre with you. who care what Iran does? So what if they’re difficult? Water off a duck’s back.
Gen. Clark,
Thanks for giving your time here and in service to the US.
-G
General Clark, Ambassador Joe Wilson was here at FDL last December. He and others have talked about their fear that our soldiers may have to eventually fight their way out of Iraq. Is there any other legitimate escape route, other than through Basra? Also, how do you see the security of our supply lines from Basra coming north?
Also only if you care to comment, doesn’t the US occupation force in Iraq only make Iran and Russia more dominant in the region?
Thanks again for your visit here to FDL.
I think we need to reevaluate our military strategy to make sure it’s appropriate. Our first line of defense should be diplomacy, but the final arbiter remains our men & women in uniform. I don’t agree with President Bush’s “preemptive” strategy. It’s basically unworkable, un-American and illegal. But we do need a new national security strategy.
Seconded with great enthusiasm.
from matt: “Right now, the army is bearing the brunt of our national choices, while the country at large gives up “very little”, which is illustrative of the larger problem America faces when we do not make hard choices or exercise the extraordinary leadership we are so capable of.”
this raises two issues for me…
first, i’m not sure our “choices” are really being made by the country at large - public opinion polls (that i’m aware of) seem to show a public grossly out of step with the political elite of both parties.
second, from my reading of jared diamond (Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail Or Succeed), it seems that one of the most important features for the success of a society is that the elite must pay the price for the choices they make - if that doesn’t happen, then wise choices are not made.
do you agree? if so, what do you think a president should do to move us in the direction of making wise choices.
and if you disagree, why?
General Clark,
WHAT IS THE REAL THREAT FROM ANY OTHER NATION ON THIS PLANT TO THESE UNITED STATES?
Are we facing an invasion? Ever?
Well, I think we have had enough, but wishing for an end to war won’t prevent a would-be attacking power from starting one. We must have sufficient military strength to deter conflict if possible and win if we ever have to fight again.
And why do you suppose that is, and is it wise? Pl, no cliches.
India.. The Taj Mahal.
Who’s your candidate?
Sander and everyone — please refrain from screaming in all caps in the comments. Thank you.
PLANET… sorry
Oh, very cool trip plan. Please have a fabulous time for all of us:)
General, apologies for the long post. Just wondering if you have ever heard of the Hunt report and wondering if you had any comment:
Original post from Sara over at tnh, pasted from SteveAudio’s place.
His candidate is Hillary Clinton. What on earth makes you think she’d start a war?
Yep…I have an 85 year old uncle who has been nearly everywhere (including South Pole, etc…) and he says his trip to India (including Tah Mahal) was the most fascinating
Uh. You dont think screaming is appropriate? Would be interested in Clark’s take on that, cause I think screaming is understating the problem.
It seems pretty clear that unless we see some serious population control around the world in the not too distant future the needs of nations are going to be food and energy.
Isn’t it wise for us to find ways to provide these to the world, rather than get into a world wide food fight over them?
I believe that we will not be attacked for anything we have and no other nation is interested in running our country. What say you?
You’re very kind. Thank you, and happy holidays.
Don’t forget water.
General, thank you so much for “speaking” with us today.
Will you be in Iowa next week or will you be enjoying well deserved time with the grandchildren? They must be getting big.
Merry Christmas General Clark.
What philosopher’s have influenced/shaped you?
What periodicals and/or newspapers do you regularly read?
Our best to Gert.
And, I absolutely enjoy Wes Clark, Jr., on the Young Turks, he is master truth-teller.
Peace
Why is it necessary to leave everything, including nuclear bombing, on the table when it comes to confronting Iran?
eCHAn — There is stating your position and asking appropriate questions on difficult issues on which well-meaning people may and do disagree, and then there is being rude to a guest. The former is encouraged, the latter not so much. I think that is both clear and the usual practice with guests here, and something with which regulars ought to be both familar and respectful. Don’t you?
Given how hard Jane works to bring in guests for the blog for pubic discussion and all, and how difficult it can be to give everyday folks an opportunity to discuss important issues directly with the people who make policy decisions for all of us — and how important it can be for them to hear from everyday people and all, I’d think it would be obvious that it is a good idea to encourage that both here and elsewhere by not trying to scuttle it. But maybe that’s just me…
Something I’ve been a bit curious about for a while:
I’ve seen Wes Jr on numerous occasions using an abundance of ‘colorful’ language in his appearances.
How much of this vocabulary was picked up from:
1) just being associated with military families growing up
2) Hollywood
3) Mom
4) Dad
from matt: “And systemic bad faith arguments are levied at the American public about torture, military contracting, and national security, with complicity in this dishonest dialogue at high levels. What is the strategy to deal with this? Why can’t we call liars liars? I encountered this question in my interview with Clark about the Petraeus flap, when I asked him what individuals who felt Petraeus was being dishonest should do.”
i read matt’s interview at the time. here’s a bit, but i really recommend folks to read the whole thing, to get the context right:
i have to say it really bothered me. wes, why do you think it’s ok for chuck hagel and william fallon to say the things they did but i can’t? maybe you didn’t mean it this way, but it struck me as offensively elitist. i’m all for respecting professionals and their special knowledge and expertise. but i reject the idea that i’m not allowed to call a liar a liar - no matter who they are.
since this is such an important topic - and get’s us back to the idea of having an honest national dialogue, would you expand on this a bit more? maybe address some of the issues that matt raised in his post:
I want to take this opportunity to remind everyone that if you haven’t already, sign up for my email alerts at http://www.SecuringAmerica.com.
Ciao. I’m just asking Qs about things that havn’t been said about General Clark. If he is unwilling to address these issues, so be it. I didn’t make this stuff up, nor am I being impolite. But if cesorship is the rule of FDL, I’m ooutta here for now.
http://www.securingamerica.com (without the dot at the end)
but our history since WW2 is not one of deterring conflict. we’ve attacked some country almost every year since then. what rational could there be for that? how would we feel if other countries were as ready to attack us as we seem to be to attack others? it’s hard for me to understand what “national interest” could justify this.
Welcome General Clark, Considering your book and much of your life spends a lot of time on the idea of leadership and how to apply leadership in our times, also how best to do this through the Democratic party. One move you made in summer of ‘06 was support Ned Lamont in his bid for US Senate against Joe Lieberman. I want to thank you again for doing so, I continue to think of that support as great leadership on your part.
However I am perplexed by your support of the Bush Cheney enablers in our party, such as Senator Mark Pryor, Dem, in name only. The short list I have trouble with regarding Senator Pryor’s positions are dogged support of needless war, torture, elimination of women’s rights to choose, against Habeas Corpus, nominations and approval of folks like Justice Alito and former Atty. General Gonzales.
How do you justify supporting people like this with fund raisers in your name for the party, yet expect real change or restoration of our constitutions best characteristics and the rule of law? I try to allow for old political rules of thumb such as politics making strange bedfellows and that we are all prone to supporting our old friends and neighbors, but where do we draw the line when so much has been crossed with Senators like Pryor?
I have been wrestling with this question all year so please help a fellow Arkansas Democrat find a way to understand your thinking on this point.
Again many thanks for being here today.
Eureka Springs, AR
Okay, so given that our previous policies have given our enemies an incentive to surrender in the past, do you think our current policy has taken that away? Do you think that will hurt our efforts now and in the future by making our enemies fight harder out of fear of being captured and tortured?
DB, is it after dark where you are? Your question seems to fall into the “after dark” line of inquiry.
Done.
With cloud cover, it is almost dark here 5:27 CST
eCHAN — If you want to discuss this, take it to the prior thread and I’m happy to do so. Not in this thread.
(deep in GOP-occupied Texas)
Thanks for being here General Clark!
Looking down the road 10 years, in your crystal ball:
1. Will Iraq exist as a singular and stable state?
2. Will the US still have armed forces on Iraq’s territory?
3. Will Iraq be more friend or foe?
Exactly
Don’t think discussion is necessary. Learned a lot today about what happens here when commenters don’t agree with the PTB (powers that be).
Excellent questions, Mad dog. I’d like to know what we can do to help the Iraqi people and refugees who are in peril? What a disaster the Bush administration has made of their lives.
I had hoped that Gen Clark would have taken Pryor out in a primary challenge. No such luck.
I’ve got to head to a holiday event (’tis the season!) in a bit…
Thanks for your great questions; I’ve really enjoyed blogging with you today.
I am going to try to stop by periodically over the next few hours to answer a few more of your questions.
Thank you for blogging with us and happy holiday to all the Clarks!
Thanks Matt and General Clark - we really appreciate your time and willingness to join FDL in discussion.
Thank you Gen. Clark for being here today.
Thanks again to Jane and Christy for inviting me to FireDogLake, and to Matt for the kind introduction. I hope many of you will get a chance to read my book and let me konw what you think.
Thanks so much for being here today, General Clark. Happy holidays and thanks for spending the time with us.
Happy Holidays!
Mele Kalikimaka and Ha’ole Makahiki Hou! 8-)
Amen to that, my good friend, amen.
Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions General! Happy Holidays and all that (just to p*ss off O’Reilly).
thank you! that would be great. and thank you for visiting today.
… and to matt, many thanks for such a great intro… as i said in my first question, you’ve made me want to read the book.
Thank you very much for being here today.
I look forward to being back again soon.
Again, if you haven’t already, I hope you’ll stop by http://www.securingamerica.com or http://www.stopIranwar.com to sign up and stay in touch with me.
Happy Holidays, Sir, and Happy Birthday too.
I had a great time, thanks again very much.
thanks from 76 avg group.
A priviledge to be engaged in conversation with you Gemeral Clark!
I am surely hoping you do stop by to see my last comment;
while I surely hope you are correct, and the over extending of our armed forces was not deliberate in attempt to force privitization of the United States Military, I fear you are not correct
And while I defer to your superior knowledge, I request you keep your eye keen to that as having been the strategy, so if it does become clear to you, you might raise the alarm and bring proper attention to those that might be able to avert the damage to this country.
Quite the honor for me sir!
Thanks so much to all of you, and happy holidays!
Just a quote from another liveblog that bears repeating. I read it every so often to remind myself that all the effort is STILL worth it.
“… dreams don’t have to end. When I set out from Arkansas to West Point in June of 1962, I had a dream about a journey, a journey of service. That’s what life is - it isn’t a destination, but it’s what you do along the way. … don’t let the dream of a better America die. That dream isn’t about a person, it’s about all of us, what we do with our lives, how we affect others around us, how much we give, how much we share. And we can still have the dream of a great America, noble in spirit, true to her values, a beacon of hope, an inspiration for billions, the centerpiece of a new epoch for mankind. Yes, that dream is still there for us…we just have to work for it….it is bigger than any one person, and longer than any lifetime. And it isn’t exclusive. Any of us can participate and share that joy.”
————-Wes Clark, 9/16/07
Gen. Clark, I think, would make a good president. Obama and HRC? Not so much.
THANX JANE, CHRISTY AND EVERYONE WHO MAKES CONVERSATIONS LIKE THESE POSSIBLE HERE AT THE LAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have that on my refrigerator
If General Clark does nothing else, press forward on your own fronts, do not wait stand up and lead.
Didn’t see anything from eCAHN that needs an apology.
Also didn’t see Christy saying anything that warrants comments about nebulos “things happening” when comments disagree with PTB. Huh? Christy said we should refrain from SHOUTING and be civil.
It would have been nice to have Gen Clark address more of eCAHN’s questions. Perhaps when he returns later? eCAHN might want to pull the various unanswered questions into a single comment now that there’s a bit of time constraint removed.
Oh, and thanks to Gen Clark for coming here today.
but leadership at times needs the right person at the right time.
wmd — Had you refreshed your computer, you would have seen that the request for an apology comment has already been pulled because (a) it was off topic and (b) none was needed.
And, as this is also off-topic, I suggest if anyone has questions or comments on this particular issue that they take them to the prior thread as I already asked folks to do. Since, again, that’s our consistent policy on off-topic discussions in guest threads.
And as history can point out a dissenting voice make all the diference.
So sir thank you, and thank you for your ideas.
Hi Gen. Clark,
Got here late, but since you said you would be back sometime
Matt said:
Had any offers? And which post?
And @ 88 you said:
Isn’t this counter-productive? Conflating Ahmadinejad’s power with that of the Supreme Leader? You were probably in a rush to get your words out, but it would help your standing if you are more specific in explaining the power structure of the Iranian government
And if you don’t get back here is a short web page on the Iranian power structure for those who don’t have a clear understanding
Merry Christmas
Thanks for this, john. Interesting.
Ian has a shiny new post upstairs!
Hello Gen. Clark.
I meant to read some stuff and have a good Q. for ya today but didn’t.
Greetz, thanks for engaging the netroots et.al
Thank you for coming General Clark! Happy Holidays — and Merry Christmas, too… *g*
I hope if Bloomberg jumps into the race last minute, that you would consider jumping in too.
Missed the party, but I have a questions anyway, Gen. Clark, if you should come back and see this later.
I think it’s fair to say that the people who frequent this site are, as a whole, quite well informed. Not much gets by us, whether it be hearings, articles, candidate’s positions and actions, etc.
But that knowledge, extensive as it may be, is obviously limited to knowing only what has been put into the public domain. I assume, rightly or wrongly, that by virtue of who you are and who you know, that you have fairly extensive access to information not available to the public at large.
To what extent, if any, would you estimate your positions to be influenced by being in possession of information unavailable to the rest of us?
General Clark, My first dip into politics was on a prairie farm outside of
Fargo. You were running for President and I was looking for my candidate. Your words that day forced me into finally paying attention. The very definition of a leader, if you ask me. My thanks and Blessings to your family.
I am curious if Mr. Clark is aware that among progressives which most of us are here Hillary Clinton is the least popular of any of the Democratic candidates. The reason that any of us would even consider voting for her in a general election is that the Republican candidates are all in their various batshit crazy. But we don’t like her.
She has been disingenuous in the extreme about her vote for the AUMF against Iraq. She took something like 3 years to come up with an unconvincing explanation. What took her so long? Why did she never apologize for her participation in the greatest foreign policy disaster in our nation’s history. Why should we trust someone who can’t come clean about something as basic as that?
Yet even if we were to accept Hillary’s belated rationale, it does not explain why she supported this mistake for 3 years. She has sometimes said that she would have done Iraq better. That is hardly reassuring. The key is to avoid stupid, unnecessary, horrendously expensive wars, not do them better.
Now some may say that this water over the dam, that whether she admits or not what she did was a mistake she will not do it again. This is where her vote on Kyl-Lieberman comes in because it shows that, in fact, she was prepared to do it all over again. Kyl-Lieberman was not an isolated event but was just the latest in a series of resolutions and bills each a little more bellicose than the last, each lowering the bar for a military confrontation with Iran. Lieberman has been a prime cheerleader of military action against Iran. Are we seriously to believe that Hillary was unaware of this? Luckily, for all of us, the Iran NIE came out and blew your and Hillary’s case for war with Iran out of the water. But if it had not would we be treated to Hillary sometime down the road explaining how her vote for Kyl-Lieberman didn’t mean what it certainly seemed to mean at the time?
The reason I distrust you and Hillary is that you represent a foreign policy Establishment that has failed us. This Establishment is supposed to be made up of the “adults” but it has been effectively AWOL for the last 6 years. It and Hillary have not led but have been pulled along by events. Even now some of those whom Glenn Greenwald calls Very Serious People (Michael O’Hanlon, for example, another Hillary supporter) continue to cheerlead both the surge and the war. And Hillary? Her statements on her Iraq policy sound a whole lot like doing the current mission (which we have not been able to accomplish at surge troop levels) but with fewer troops. She has no concrete plan for disengagement, just some platitudes. So explain to me why I should trust you, her, or the foreign policy Establishment to which you both belong?
Hugh, Hillary made sure K/L was gutted before she voted. Neither Hillary or Wes want to have a war with Iran. General Clark has been out front trying to stop a war with Iran. You seem to be repeating someone’s talking points here. Perhaps you need to read the version of K/L that actually passed and keep in mind, it wasn’t something that was also passed in congress. You really should read Clark’s book, Waging Modern War. He says like he always says, “war is always always always a last resort.” Hillary voted for what remained in the gutted K/L so their would be something to use in efforts of diplomacy with Iran. She had no intention to give George W. Bush permission to attack Iran unilaterally.
Hillary didn’t make sure that Kyl-Lieberman was gutted. She was off campaigning. It was Senators like Durbin who toned it down and even so it contained the naming of the Quds force, a part of the Iranian government, as a terrorist organization. This is not exactly “gutted” in any sense of the word I know of.
As for not wanting a war with Iran, this is extremely easy for anyone to say, but if they keep backing up each successive step in the march to war, I don’t place much credence in it. It is even easier to affirm this now that the Iran NIE has destroyed the main pillar of the war argument.
Your assertion that Kyl-Lieberman was necessary for a diplomatic process with Iran is just silly. You seem intent on going to extaordianry lengths to justify Hillary’s vote on it. On the one hand, you assert that it was gutted and on the other you maintain it was necessary for diplomacy. Which is it? Before you start csting aspersions on my motives, maybe you should get your own story straight.
I would also advise you that I have been at this site a lot longer than you. If you had been here a little longer, you would know that I do not recite anyone’s talking points. Now you on the other hand . . .
from my outside perspective it appears that inflammatory or threatening rhetoric on our part has hindered diplomatic efforts with iran - for example, president bush’s “axis of evil” statement - just as ahmadinejad’s inflammatory rhetoric makes it difficult for our politicians.
that is why i have never understood why or how kyl-lieberman is helpful for diplomacy - it seems unnecessarily belligerent to me, in addition to being irresponsible so long as there are people in the administration who want to attack iran.
Why would Hillary support creating terrorists (the Quds) for Bushco and I suppose herself and the Liebermans out of thin air? We the US are the invaders and the threat to Iran. We are the genocidal robber barons.. We are the terrorists with an air force. We cannot seem to face this about ourselves but that doesn’t make it any less true. We have been bombing and terrorizing all around Iran for at least 17 continuous years. I for one am amazed at Irans restraint.
Bill Clinton maintained murderous sanctions and air partition in Iraq. Bill Clinton left all of the pieces in place for a Bush and Cheney to make god awful much worse, once again. Are we to assume if Hillary gets us back to that sort of point, then we Dems are better?
It’s time to quit lying to ourselves. Our country is led by war criminals who had a choice not to be war criminals.
Are Dems planning on being war criminals on day one ‘09 or not? If not, that answer had best be very clear to me long before election day ‘08.
I am sorry if this appears off topic but it all comes down to leadership..and what kind of leadership we will both give and receive. What are fine folks like General Clark trying to do with that leadership by working with Clinton hiring the O’Hanlons and financially supporting the Pryors of this world?
When I politely ask these questions time and again without a response (see #127) at all.. I am left with no alternative but to assume the worst.
Do I think they needed K/L for diplomacy with Iran? No. Obviously, other people came up with K/L. Hillary was there to vote and to make sure what she wasn’t voting for was the original K/L.
You are correct in that I haven’t been here to know your record of comments. I have paid close attention to what Wes Clark has had to say on the subject of Iran and have also been looking carefully at what Hillary Clinton’s positions are since he endorsed her.
You can have the place back to yourself. I’m going.
ES - was hoping wes clark would return to answer some more questions (none of my were addressed either). maybe he still will - don’t the comments remain open for 24 hours?
here’s hoping.
selise, Yes they should be open for 24 hours. Here’s hoping he returns. I really want to hear what he has to say on the remaining questions.
wish you would stay. disagreement - even very strong disagreement is not, i think, to be avoided if we are to have that “honest national dialogue about our place in the world” that wes clark says we need (and i agree).
but i wish you hadn’t accused hugh of repeating talking points - especially when he’s someone we all know has never repeated anyone’s talking points. would much prefer to instead of engage on the issues - if you are willing.
thanks ES. let’s monitor this thread as we are able, and if more questions get answered we can announce it in whatever is the current thread to let everyone else know.
Yes, she was there to vote for Kyl-Lieberman, a “gutted” resolution, but was she there to stand with Christopher Dodd when he stood up to Senate Republicans and his own Democratic leadership over the FISA bill with its immunity for telecoms, basket warrants, dicey minimization procedures, and vague promises not to reverse target? No.
This is a criticism I have made of both Clinton and Obama. This is about more than votes. Most of us here can distinguish between a real vote and a cosmetic one, or between politicians who say they are against something but don’t show for the vote. Clinton and Obama talk about leadership on the campaign trail, but when it comes to exercising it in their day job in the Senate, they are nowhere to be found. For her part, Hillary could have led the opposition to the Iraq war, the saber rattling with Iran, or the changes to FISA (now if you wanted an example of gutting, there you have a great one), but she didn’t. Her presence with Dodd would have sent a strong message, one that even that Harry Reid could not have ignored. Instead we have Reid planning to push the atrocious Intel version of the FISA bill again next year. Perhaps if Hillary did a little more leading, she would find that she did not need to do so much campaigning.
By the way, Happy Birthday General Clark!
Eureka, I enjoy, envey your thoughts, your well written words, displayed on this site. You bring me great insite to a truley masterfull mind on how to say what one means. Me, I am all over the place, too emotional, to aggressive, I just wanted to thank you for your intel and well written words. i know i sound sloppy but, thank you.. something to strive for. thank you…
Oh, God, why on Earth would you want Bloomberg in the race? Who cares what the billionaire says?
Read Waging Modern War by General Clark.
Damn! I had it in my head that this book Salon was on Sunday afternoon! I gotta learn how to read those little notification boxes on the front page. I feel like an idiot.
However, should you check back General Clark, when reading the book, I was struck by your emphasis on public schooling as the great equalizer and the key to opporunity for anyone willing to work hard.
I also noticed the level of detail you went into about infrastructure when you were a base commander: building schools, hospitals, PX’s, housing, etc.
Obviously you gave that a lot of attetnion or you would not have been able to warm to the topic as you did.
So, I guess my questions are these:
If social welfare issues are critical to the success of the army, are they not also critical to the success of the country?
Why is it preferable for the government to build and provide housing and even retail shopping for the the armed forced, but not to be directly involved in planned communities?
Is the most effective thing the government can do to ensure our economic, political and military strength, simply to be competent at ensuring organized delivery of social welfare services?
Is the most significant of these, healthcare? After all, a healthy population is a more efficient and productive population.
Do you think the current administration understands AT ALL the importance of meeting the basic social welfare needs of military families?
I DO NOT want Bloomberg in the race, I said that if he does enter last minute (and he is thinking about it BTW) that General Clark would consider joining the race too to balance out Bloomberg’s last minute hat toss.
For the record, Bloomberg would be devastating leadership for the US.