In 1896 William Jennings Bryan brough down the house with his Cross of Gold speech, in which he railed against the gold standard. Americans responded because many felt they had indeed been crucified upon a cross of gold by the bankers and the rich men of the east. Today, it’s their houses they’ve been nailed to, and it’s their houses they’ll go down with.
As in Bryan’s day, today one of the main problems in the US is the monetary system, but unlike in 1896, when tight money was used to keep debtors, most especially farmers, in their place, today it has been loose credit and repeated inflationary asset bubbles driven by uncontrolled money creation which threatens the middle class. While the uncontrolled creation of money isn’t limited to the housing bubble, or what is laughably called "sub-prime", since the problems extend far past sub-prime, understanding how real-estate and housing work is integral to understanding the impact, because for most Americans their home is the most important asset they own.
To talk about Housing one has to first talk about what money is. In the modern world money is generally created as debt. The simplest form is where someone goes to the bank, say "I have asset X that’s worth Y and I want to borrow money." The bank takes a look at the asset, checks you out and if they think you can pay them back, they give you the loan. Because a bank can loan multiples of the money it has been given to keep for other people (deposits) most of that money is, in effect, created out thin air.
That’s the fractional reserve system, and it creates money.
Now before this system, the US and most other countries were on gold based monetary systems. In that system the money supply could only expand as fast as the supply of gold or a multiple thereof (although since notes were redeemable in cash, a gold economy was always in danger of bank runs). Since the supply of gold doesn’t have much, if any correlation to the size of an economy, that meant that gold backed economies were often short on liquidity–there just wasn’t enough money to support the economic activity of the country. At other times you might get a Gold boom (say in California or Alaska) and gold would flood the economy. Again, this didn’t havemuch to do with the fundamental growth rate of the economy, just with how the gold mining sector was doing.
The end result of this, especially as industrialization increased the rate of economic growth by an order of magnitude over pre-industrial periods, were repeated financial crises. If you pick up a history of the economy in the 19th century you’ll be numbed by the number of recessions, Panics and yes, even Depressions. The 30’s Depression was called the "Great" depression not just because it was so bad, but to distinguish it from other depressions that had occured.
This also sets the background of the silver movement, and William Jenning Bryan’s "Cross of Gold". The US at the time was on a bimetallic system, but silver was much more common and farmers were paid in silver, but owed their debts in gold. They wanted pure silver and were aware it would lead to inflation and that’s what they wanted because they were mostly debtors. They owed money and they wanted to pay it back cheaper. And they wanted more money so there’d be less panics etc… (And they were very economically literate. Farmers would listen to multiple-hour, in-depth debates by candidates or even just paid speakers.)
When the US and other countries went off gold, and onto the modern lending system of creating money the basis of how you decided how much money to create changed. Instead of it being "how much gold is there", it became "does someone have an asset which can be used to pay the loan back?"
Now, for both individuals and companies this can simply be "I have an income". A company can say "well, we make X million dollars a year of profit and therefore we can pay you back." An individual can say "I have a job, and my expenses are low enough that I can pay you back."
But for big loans you generally needed collateral. For businesses real estate, or a factory, or perhaps an equity stake in the company. For individuals it might be a car, but most often it was a house, or real-estate of some variety.
Indeed, for the median houshold, as of 2000, almost 75% of their net wealth is tied up in their home. Since then, with the decline in US savings rates and the rise of housing prices in the bubble, that number will have only risen.
A huge chunk of the money generation in the US since the thirties, then, has been driven by house loans and the majority of the net wealth of Americans is tied up in house values.
This made sense, not so much because people would buy the house if someone defaulted on their mortgage (though they generally would) but because the house had value, beyond simple shelter, for a number of reasons.
The first is based on location. Real Estate in general, and a house in particular is valuable if it has access to good jobs, to sewage, to water, to power, to shopping and so on. To examine the truth of this, simply note that houses in the middle of nowhere almost always sell for much, much less than those near metropolitan centers. And in general, the further you are out of the city, the less real-estate costs. There are exceptions to the rule, sure, but they have specific explanation such as white flight or the hollowing out cities (which is a confirmation of the rule–when an industry moves out, the real-estate is worth less because there are less jobs.) So real-estate is worth something because you can make money from it (retailers and manufuacturers locating near ports or railway depots are other examples.)
Housing though has another value, especially in America. Because schools are paid for from property taxes, neighbourhoods with high real-estate values tend to have well-funded schools. All other things being equal those schools perform better than schools with less money. And credentials are how the American middle and lower upper classes have attempted to pass their status down to their children. Eventual earnings track educational attainment better than anything else. So a house in a good area is one of the best things you can do for your children’s future prosperity.
And houses are retirement accounts. It’s not an IRA that funds most people’s "golden" years, it’s their house. Borrowing against the house, or very commonly selling it, moving to a southern state with lousy property values and cheap labor (to take care of you when you can’t take care of yourself) is very common. Much of the middle class lives and work where the good jobs and good schools are, then move to where the lousy jobs are when they get old.
With housing doing all of these things it might seem to be good for it to become more expensive. Bigger retirement accounts, better schools–what’s not to like?
Leaving aside that when housing becomes too expensive it pulls up the ladder and strands young adults, or forces them to take on too-large loans the real problem is that the US’s cost structure is too expensive and real-estate costs are just another area where this is true. If you have to spend six hundred thousand to live near a decent job, that job has to justify the payments on a $600,000 house and, more to the point, the job has to be profitable enough for a corporation to justify a salary large enough to pay that mortgage and those property taxes.
When there are countries like India and China where employees can live for much less, and therefore can be paid much less and still live very well, that’s a problem. (Indeed, a computer programmer in India earning half what an American does has a much better standard of living in most ways than that American.)
So high real-estate prices, while they allow for increased money supply, also require that American enterprises be much more relatively productive than domiciles with lower real-estate costs. And while American productivity is generally higher, it’s not that much higher, especially when you add in artificially low exchange costs, various taxes and so on.
The money supply is still created, mind you, but instead of being used for production in the US, a large amount of it used to buy foreign goods, or floods out of the country as US assets (including mortgages) are bought up by foreign governments and investors. The remainder pools in the US, and is one of the main causes of inflation–both in basic goods like food and energy and in assets like housing itself. A bubble is a case of a self-reinforcing upwards spiral.
When a bubble bursts you get a self-reinforcing downward spiral and a real chance at deflation. I’ve said for a long time that I expect stagflation first, but after that one of the real options for the US economy is deflation (the other is hyperinflation). That’s a large topic, but at its base it’s simple enough. If you have a house you bought for 1 million, and no one will buy it for more than $500,000 and you borrowed $1,1000,000 against it, a combination of you and the bank are eating a loss of $600,000. That’s money that effectively just dissapears. Poof, it’s gone. And it can’t be loaned again, because the house (which you probably don’t own, since it’s been foreclosed) is now worth only half a million, the money supply can’t be increased as much as if it was worth a million.
The same thing can happens with stocks (see Internet bubble). It is currently happening with entire classes of bonds. What matters is when it happens in salaries–when pension funds have no choice but to unilaterally cut payments, when companies unilaterally cut wages or go under, when school boards have to cut jobs and wages.
People have less money–not only because they can borrow less, but because they’re earning less. They have to sell even more stuff–houses, cars, stocks, bonds, consumer goods, and the price on those items collapses because they’re desperate and everyone else is poor and cheap.
And as the assets that everything is borrowed against collapse in price, the money supply starts to, for a change, actually contract. And just as more money in an economy, given the same amount of economic activity, transalates into inflation, the reverse is true.
Now deflation is only one scenario after stagflation, the other is hyperinflation. Hyperinflation would occur in almost the same scenario except that instead of prices for goods collapsing they explode, because the money supply is so much higher than the amount of economic activity. And it’s not yet clear to me which will happen or if we can avoid both because a large amount of what will happen will occur due to deliberate policy choices made by the Fed, Congress, the President and various regulatory agencies and government-sponsored companies.
But there is certainly a great deal to worry about, and it’s because housing prices aren’t just about housing, they’re about money supply, education, competitiveness, retirement and much more. As the largest store of wealth for most Americans, they are one of the lynchpins of the US economy, and if they get knocked out the very foundations of the US economy will be disturbed.
As many have noted, the last time the US saw widespread housing price declines was the Great Depression.
That’s not an accident.
*edited to correct description of the monetary system in the late 19th century*
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Ian!
holy batcave!
Hey Ian,
So we have discarded the monetary system tied to gold, which didn’t appropriately fluctuate with actual growth in the economy, and replaced it with a system based on hedge funds and credit tiers of dubious value. Is this progress?
Heard in a Krugman speech that now we have free trade with China. They send us poisoned toys and tainted seafood, and we send them fraudulent securities. Who is the winner here?
Ian where are we now relative to the late 80s housing slump? Is it comparable (you seem to think it will be much worse). Will it affect all real estate, or will high end real estate continue to hold (because the people who buy those homes are still doing well in BushWorld)?
OT: but teh Get Active link r broke
I knew no good would come of all those direct mail credit card offers. Free Credit, right.
Remember the days when you had to be able to pay the money back in order to get the money? I am not an economist, but I knew it didn’t work to loan money simply to have a source of interest and penalities and finance charges. and now here we are. It bugs me because I don’t know much, but banks are supposed to be smarter than that.
Thank you. Working on it now.
Ian,
As an historian I note your comparisons to The Gilded Age and the Great Depression. Noting the amount of ARM resets that max out in March 2008(via Bondadblog), are we in for a heckuva ride?
I really appreciate your insights. Thanks
I think the best model to use is the Japanese housing bubble’s collapse. By that model, we’ve got about 5 years to go to hit bottom and we can expect declines of about 1/3 house values in the main areas that were affected.
Is there any way this situation is similar to that prevailing in the early 70s when there was stagflation and interest rates around 12%? I certainly wasn’t in the housing market then, but I remember that everything got more expensive while my pay remained the same. Uncomfortable in the extreme.
I bought a house 2 years ago, and consider myself profoundly lucky that I have a place to live that some landlord can’t toss me out of. One of the things that the housing bubble did here in Savannah was pretty much completely wipe out affordable rental housing, even for folks who could be termed “middle class,” like me. Hence the house.
thx :)
nope, the sign the petition one.
Has Japan sorted out their “real estate” problem. IIRC, at one time the “value real estate” in Tokyo was greater than the entire US.
Well, we didn’t go straight from “gold” to “BS securities”, there was a long period where the system pretty much worked. I count this from the 30’s btw, even though the US was still officially tired to gold, it really wasn’t anymore in some significant ways (in others it was, and the London gold window where you could sell gold is one of the things that did the remnants of the gold standard in.)
China’s winning, because what the US is exporting isn’t so much ‘fraudulent securities” (though they’re getting a ton of those) as “industrial jobs”. China is industrializing on the US, and even if they lose most of the value of the dollars they have (and they will, eventually) it’s still worth it.
I bought my first house in the late 70’s and IIRC the interest rate was 14 or 16%.
Thanks that was the answer.
India’s winning too, because we’re exporting “computer” jobs there. One of the docs in my office has his transcription done in Bangalore. I’ll bet that person gets paid a whole bunch less than I do…
The key thing is that banks were no longer keeping the loans on the books–they were selling them to other people. The bond rating agencies weren’t doing their jobs properly (more on that another time) and over-rated the debt as more secure than it was. Banks made money for every loan they gave, then packaged and sold and though they weren’t keeping the risk, so what did they care if there was going to be a default.
Number one thing to do to avoid these things is to not allow much selling of debt. Greenspan and company were wrong, credit derivatives magnified risk, they didn’t reduce it. The people who issue the loans have to also be responsible when they go bad.
This also moves to compensation issues — too large salaries and too fast churn are bad. Sure Citi might be technically bankrupt, but Prince is still a billionaire from all the bonusses he got. There was no downside for him. When people can get rich in a 3 to 5 years, they don’t care what will happen in 7 or 10 years.
I think the prime was 12%, which means that everything else was points over prime. Ouch!!!
Ian, thank you for an excellent post.
This is a subject of great interest to me. I have had the sense that i got out in the nick of time tho when it happened it was heartbreaking. After my divorce, bought a house in ‘00. Got laid off in early ‘01 and found another job with 25% cut in pay. I was lucky, most of my laid-off coworkers had trouble finding jobs in the same field (yes, outsourcing to India). Managed with great skimping to continue to make house payments. Got laid off again in ‘05 right after my youngest graduated from high school. Wasn’t sure about job market so decided to sell. A week after closing, first articles began to appear about housing market slowing down. It’s been continuing to spiral downward, I don’t think we’ve hit bottom yet.
I think we are, yeah. I expect stagflation as the most likely outcome. At that point I don’t know if we’re just getting a really bad recession or a depression, but it’s easy to make arguments for either.
The people who lived through the gilded age, roaring twenties and were adults in the depression are mostly dead.
And people only learn from their own experience. Repealing Glass-Steagall, for example, was beyond stupid.
Seems to me that one thing was particularly important in convincing people to take out home equity loans. And that was the end of tax deductions for interest payments on credit cards. I recall that event as a moment when many people began to switch into home equity loans, in order to continue getting tax deductions for interest on borrowed money. And that, in my view, has contributed to the problem we now have.
Thus, many people borrowed far more than they might have, had credit card debt been their only borrowing option. Couple that with the bubble in house values, together with the fact that refinancing often encouraged people to take out even more money from the house than they needed (in order to get the best refinancing rates – or that’s what they were told!). To me, these factors explain why so many people will now be losing houses.
Credit card debt, while difficult to refinance at times, at least has the advantage that the debt is held by a known entity. Thus it is at least possible to negotiate to pay “something.” But for mortgages, given the current slicing and dicing mess, it is next to impossible for people, who feel they can pay something, to be able to do that … because they simply can’t find an entity to negotiate with.
I feel for those who are trapped in a situation of a descent in house values… to below what they owe. Once that happens, it’s easier to walk away, even if you’re losing something – because at least you’re not stuck paying for “nothing” – a home that no longer has the “worth” that you’re stuck paying for.
And on top of that, there’s the problem that people who are foreclosed on can wind up paying taxes on what they would have owed in payments, but something the government views as a “windfall.” Thus the amount which they’ll never have to pay to the mortgage company, the government views as “income.”
We are in for a bunch of problems here, including foreign governments stepping in to bail out some of our banks and other financial entities, thus allowing them, ultimately, to gain a foothold in our political process.
Huge, huge problems are coming down the pike!
We aren’t there yet, but we’re working on it. Real inflation rates are considerably higher than the headline ones, due to various fiddling, and even the headline ones are rising. Bernanke is dropping interest rates, and is going to let loose some real nasty inflation. At some point a central banker will have to deal with it by really raising interest rates and you could see a repeat of the 70’s. Even without that inflation is out of control (forget the official numbers, look at how much you’re paying for staples compared to last year, the year before and the year before that) and at best we’re moving into a recession.
So, stagflation – high unemployment, high inflation.
Oddly, probably combined at the least with asset deflation, so people are going to be feeling a lot less rich.
Which means a demand crunch. How that will play out, I’m not sure. It could turn into generalized deflation or hyperinflation if it’s not handled properly.
Gonna be a bad time to be President, 2009 is.
That was Mom. She raised me to have a horror of being in debt that’s with me to this day. The credit card bill is paid in full every month. I bless her for how she raised me to this day.
Glad you got out in time. Lot of people I know didn’t. If you have the money, look for the bottom (it’ll be a few years, imo) and buy then.
Ian, what do you think will happen with these companies that insured many of the loans that are going bust – but ultimately can’t make up all those payments. Do you foresee the govt stepping in? Or do you think that foreign govts with cash will step in, buying up portions of those companies?
At the highest levels managers still get a lot of their compensation in stock options, which translates into pressure to make short-term decisions that will boost the price of the stock. I fault this, and pathetic lack of oversight from boards of directors, in poor decision making by top management.
To what extent are options still hidden, not revealed in quarterly/annual reports? A decent regulatory system would get a better grip on the options problem. Guess we’ll have to wait for that.
the liberal media will blame all the woes on the democrats….though we all know the SURPLUS created by clinton/gore caused the fat cats(bush/cheney) to eye the booty as theirs with a stolen election…smash and grab thugs
fixed
Just looked it up..prime was 15.50% at about the time that I bought, so the interest rate was 16.5%..that’s about how I remember it. BTW in April 1980, prime was 20%..yikes.
How right you are!!! We are the “scapegoat party.” And they are the profligate party! They spend and we pay for it, economically and psychologically.
Many refinanced or took out home equity loans to pay for health care related money problems. When my husband and I both got sick twice in 24 months we lived on the equity in our home. Then we leveraged more money out to pay medical bills. Now the home is not worth as much as we owe. The health care industry is bleeding us all dry. And the Bush administration has allowed the economy to be buoyed by the housing market. There is no real economy in this country. They couldn’t have done a better job of ruining this economy if they had tried. (eyes rolling upward, teeth clinched, sweat running down face)And the weasel democrats are just as much to blame.
no more surpluses…balanced budgets…yea a pipe dream now after the last 7 years………my sad country
Some of both. The problem is that there’s also a confidence issue. No one knows how much of this stuff is “crap” and so everyone is scared to buy any of it, or issue more of it, or loan money at all.
The Fed is treating this as if it’s a liquidity crisis — as if the problem is that banks don’t have enough money.
They don’t, but that’s not the only problem, the problem is that even people with money don’t want to buy or lend based on these securities.
There comes a point where you can’t even give money away–that’s what happened in Japan. We’ll see how it plays out here, I haven’t yet figured out what is most likely or gamed through the effects of another massive infusion of money (inflation, one would think, but it might not be since we’re at the margins where pumping money may have become ineffective–at least into securities. A keynesisan stimulus may be needed, but I doubt any politician will have the guts for that and it might not work either, especially if its done stupid (Japan tried and failed, but they did it stupid)).
Lordy — it was even worse than I remembered. 20%? Jeez Louise, what’s called usury these days, or is that even a word that’s used or considered?
Me too..
credit card companies charge MORE
Maybe Ian knows — does the concept of usury enter into this equation anywhere, or is that a “quaint” idea, kind of like the Geneva Conventions?
watch this
http://video.google.com/videop…..2583451279
Thank you, Ian. What a time to be headed into retirement. And I’m counting the months (26 now) till I get Medicare and don’t have to be afraid that medical costs will bankrupt us!
Thank you Ian. When I heard recently that the loans were sold and it wasn’t the sellers’ problem, then it all made sense.
Salespeople only care about personal commissions, not company profit. or something.
An interesting aspect of the subprime meltdown is the role of academics.
Just as business school profs gave the S&L deregulation of the ’80s
a patina of intellectual respectability, the financial engineering
and f inancial mathematics programs made
the “we can slice and dice risk away” mentality seem like it was scientifically based.
All of this speaks to the problems of deregulation, of just assuming that business will act honorably (how they could assume that is beyond me!), and that the markets will somehow balance things out, rather than be like the strong preying on the weak.
Thank heaven Mr. Marion in Savannah is retired and has Medicare. He’s got COPD and some of his medications are staggeringly expensive. Of course, they made it virtually impossible to figure out which Part D plan would work for an individual patient… Luckily he smart and stubborn and found a plan that covers his meds.
the “magic” of statistics. As emptywheel would say: “pixie dust.”
sorry bout that,and big pharma is very anti alteritive remedies such as vitamins and herbs
Mr TheraP, same thing! Thank goodness for Medicare! When Part D began I had his Part D and the Part D’s of two elderly parents (in their 80’s).
Have you noticed, Marion, how the cost of Part D is nearly half of regular Medicare? All thanks to privatizing it!
IIRC usury laws are state laws, so you just incorporate in a state without them, and you can dodge most of them even in states with usury laws. But I don’t recall exactly, you’d need to look into it.
However, given what payday loan places charge people it’s fairly evident that most usury laws must have no teeth, otherwise such rates wouldn’t be possible. A populist president or congress would try to push through a hard cap on interest rates federally.
Can you explain how this works and what aspects of the Japanese program were stupid [to use the technical term]?
My little community limited the number of payday loan sharks.
Mr. Edwards?
He’s the most likely of the front-runners to want to expend the political capital necessary, imo.
They did a huge infrastructure build out. The problem is that Japan wasn’t in need of more roads, bridges-to-nowhere and so on, and unlike the US their infrastructure wasn’t in disrepair. So while there was some multiplier effect (a construction worker spends money on housing, food, clothing, recreation etc…) it didn’t spur any real economic growth of any other sort. The minute you turned off the spigot of money, it was all gone because none of it had created any jobs that didn’t depend on eternal subsidies.
if we could be so lucky as to get him…they are turning away people at food banks according to the NYT
More good news on the housing front:
I’m sure this is bad news for the Democrats.
It’ll just remind people of Monica Lewinsky.
Or something.
Exactly, I’d consider that the beginning of the end… Excellent post, Ian! I foresee some rocky days ahead of us… 8-(
a whole new industry for energy conservation could be created and sustained
Yes. And it could pay back quite well.
With all the wealth-shifting that’s occurred, I can only imagine the nervousness of the super-wealthy… as this meltdown occurs and people lose houses and become “restive.” If bushco and cheneydom have a dictatorship in store for us, they’re gonna have plenty of irate citizens on their hands!
I wonder if the economic mess makes it more or less likely that these folks will want to declare martial law and oppress us even more.
Any thoughts on that, Ian?
If Bush and Cheney have any sense at all they will leave the country to the dems. Their work here is done.
Heh, we could build debtor’s prisons, that’d take care of most of the restless natives and provide jobs…
Most of us would be in jail and the rest would be the guards.
Eggsactly…!!! ;-)
So if we did an infrastructure build out, which we could argue is needed here because of our appalling deterioration of roads, bridges, et al, how should we manage it so that it could work?
There’s a strong trend for the rich to live in isolated and/or fortified compounds anyway. Unlike in the 30’s most of them don’t make their money off of ordinary people, they make them from financial games. They feel like they didn’t get their money from Americans and that they aren’t responsible to them in any way. (They’re wrong in certain respects, but that’s a larger post).
They live in a bubble where everyone is doing great.
Once people aren’t doing great, I honestly don’t know what the reaction will be. If you read accounts from people who were around in 20-32 many say that Americans really were ready for a dictator — for someone to make the “trains run on time”.
If you’re rich at such a point what you do is find an enemy. Redirect the anger towards hispanics, gays, libruls, lesbians, and against external enemies as well (arabs, chinese, whoever).
If that doesn’t work, then the crush them under our boot route is also available.
But I just don’t know. What’s clear is that there are powerful interests who effectively do want a state run as a security state which cares for powerful economic interests first.
Japanese society is being squeezed to death by elite and corporate greed.
Japanese society is in depression/repression with very low interest rates, no way to save, declining birth rate, but with a huge export surplus and Sovereign Wealth Fund with which to buy the world.
Should the FED continue cutting interest rates, our own depression/repression is just around the corner.
it was only 100 years ago
thx!
I would rebuild infrastructure, I’d invest strongly in high speed trains, I wouldn’t build a lot of other new infrastructure other than power infrastructure. What I would so is rebuild the power infrastructure to allow individual in/out metering by time of day, fix up the capacity, provide loan assurances for energy efficiency/generation in buildings, and do a massive build out so that almost every building in the US is producing energy rather than consuming it. The scaling on that would make a lot of technologies competitive very fast, most of the jobs can’t be offshored, and if you do it right you get a full fledged tech boom. It’s also fairly easy to sell.
That’s a whole other post though.
“Don’t Tase Me, Bro!”
BRAVO!!!!!
Where’s a good place for the money to be until then? How does one recognize the bottom?
And mass transit, too.
The last time he was elected he was a big supporter of the bankruptcy law and NAFTA. Says he is sorry..maybe he is.
But, Big Oil and Big Coal wouldn’t take to kindly to that… Have some compassion… ;-)
But a good post. Would definitely like to read that.
“Unlike in the 30’s most of them don’t make their money off of ordinary people, they make them from financial games.”
So, what they are really making is fake money. Money generated from money. Goods, services, etc. are not involved in this at all. Seem precarious to me.
Our county has subsidized all our bus routes, we pay nothing to ride… Except in property taxes… *g*
I’m not so hot on investment advice, unfortunately, and am reluctant to give it over the internet in any case. The best generic advice is really this:
1) get rid of as much debt as possible.
2) agressively reduced your expenses. Don’t spend money on things you don’t need (don’t be insane about this. You’re allowed to enjoy life, but do cut out what you can.)
3) Make sure you’re on good terms with your spouse, family, friends and neihgbours. Those ties matter more than anything else in bad times and nothing is worse for most people’s financial health than a divorce.
Under the dictatorship boot: yes to prisoners and guards. But someone has to supply stuff for the guards, so you need to leave a bunches of huddled, fearful folks performing whatever jobs needed to keep things going, build the prisons, supply food etc. And don’t forget about the spies!
That’s what I remember, too.
Then in 1985 I moved to Phoenix and by 1987 I found a job doing research for a real estate developer. So I got a first hand tour of the damages of the real estate disaster of the late 90s.
I just got done watching a brief clip of Jim Cramer, who has been up in arms about how Greenspan screwed this whole thing up when he let the fed let this happen. The whole laissez-faire attitude of Greenspan, and now making the excuse “he didn’t see it coming,” what a disaster of a Fed chief. And I was about to give Cramer some credit for this, when I then heard him say that one good thing is that employment is great! To which I must respond, “Not for long!”
It’s my premise that since real estate is a basic industry, this is going to echo and ripple throughout the economy. Not only real estate agents, title company personnel and construction industry people will be looking for work. So will all those people who sell lumber, and electrical supplies, and plumbing products, and signs, and transportation methods used to transport those products that are no longer being sold, etc., etc., etc.
I like that idea. I take the train from Sacramento to Berkeley. It is liberating. I don’t have to watch were I am going or pull over for gas and I can take photos. Perfect.
Yes. A lot of them aren’t going to be rich if there’s a real crash. Same thing happened in the 30’s, lots of rich lost everything.
But in that occasion the government, both under Hoover and Roosevelt, did not do very much to bail out the rich directly. We’ll see if that’s the case. The housing bubble is a direct result of the Fed and Congress’s decision to bail out the rich from their losses when the stock bubble burst.
Greenspan didn’t “let it happen”, he did everything he could to “make it happen”.
At some point these people have to face the musak.
So given the over 1 trillion dollar infrastructure needs of the US do you see the federal government stepping in and addressing these needs as the needed Keynesian stimulus? Would it have a better end effect than in Japan?
Aside from no longer paying for Iraq how do we pay for the stimulus? Is continuing to incrase public debt a good choice?
That’s what I was thinking. I wonder if people will have sense enough to realize that it was not the Dem in office, but Bush administration policies that planted the seeds to this whole mess?
Agreed!
Increase taxes with steep progressiveness — this is exactly the wrong time to cut government spending, though I would end most contracting-out and bring most functions back in-house.
But honestly a trillion dollars over, say, 10 years, isn’t very much money. Even over 5 years just ending the Iraq war would pay for it.
My brother does computer software stuff. And last year he was let go from a consulting job doing web design for real estate. So already a year ago that sector was winding down. It’s amazing the support personnel that any industry requires.
A really horrible thing here was that some of these banks and investment houses were divesting themselves of these risky mortgage type securities at the same time as they were busy still selling these pacts with the devil!
Need my edit back. I meant the real estate disaster of the late 80s, early 90s, but I hope your listening to what I mean, not necessarily what I say!*g*
I heard that every 7th job in California was related to the real estate industry.
Deficit spending =
infrastructure investment with war = $2 trillion
infrastructure investment w/o war = $1 trillion
Pretty simple choice.
Wow, what a great day here at the lake, VERY educational interesting post
a couple of questions;
first, what do you think of de certifying the fed and to once again have money produced by the public instead of privately?
and second;
what do you think of, (instead of income tax), a “value added tax)
“value added”, for those of you that might not know, every time “value is added” to a product, that value is taxed
for instance, when petro is in the ground it has an value which is small, however once it’s mined it has more value, then once it’s refined, still more value, then each product made from that product gains yet more value
all of these taxes are incremently small and un noticeable
we would be able to kick the economy or struggling industry by reducing certain taxes around that value
and we would add less value tax to services or product that are “commons” or “neccessary”
this to me seems eminantly fair, transparent, hard to evade and virtually eliminating the gray market
Bless you, Ian. Astutely written. We need to keep our senses in the reality zone.
Consumer capitalism seems to be worse on the middle and working classes than the upper 5%. Our consumerism is mostly necessities – groceries, transportation, gas for cars, utilities, clothing, shelter and healthcare. I have very little left over for sweet indulgences. Could you expond on consumerism for those below the rich elite.
I found owning a place was so expensive. I owned outright, however, property taxes, HOA dues and special assessments came to $2,000. per month. I figured I had to earn $48,000. to net $24,00. to pay to live in my own home.
Very upsetting. I’ve been driven out.
I know, it’s really terrible. And last year I sold my neice’s home. The people that bought the house spoke very broken English, except that their daughters spoke English quite well. But they were dealing with a title company and lender I had never heard of before. The funny thing is that some of the employees of the lender didn’t speak English either. I could not speak directly to the loan officer! I can’t remember the exact circumstances, but something came up, and the loan officer suggested to the selling broker that she do something that pretty much skirted the law. The selling agent absolutely refused, so I had much more confidence in her integrity, but the fact that the loan officer suggested it really bothered me, because it meant boosting the loan amount more than I thought was needed. I have to wonder if this will be one of those loans ultimately defaulted on.
A true Ayn Rand follower to the core. A very unwise man. His brainwashing cult was worth more to him than an entire nation of people. I’m more angry with the fools who put him in such a responsible position. He sounds just like Henry Kissinger. Garbled garble.
how exactly does a person really own a house?
the government taxes according to the value, the person is obligated (in most cases) to maintain the property, and if the property ever becomes worth more for economic development the government can take that house at the value the government sets
I have always wondered why people actually think they ever own a house, all they do is rent, and when they sell it, all they are selling is the right to rent that property
Wouldn’t that be regressive like a sales tax is regressive?
I’m not a fan of getting rid of the Fed, actually. The period before the (powerful) Fed had constant panics, massive recessions and depressions. But I’m not quite sure how to deal with the Fed overall. This is one of the places where I don’t necessarily have an answer though my partial one would simply be that money creation needs to get back under control, so what I want is the Fed to do its freakin’ job, and I want Glass-Steagall put back in place, and I don’t want unlimited money creation by the Fed, the banks, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac or by Wall Street, all of whom at various points have been effectively printing money in massive quantities an then giving each other bonusses (well, except for bonusses for the Fed though I’m sure they do fine on the revolving door).
Everyone thought there was a free lunch and that you could remove the tether that bound the financial sector to, like, the real economy, and it wouldn’t matter. And for so long it didn’t seem to and everyone (who mattered) was getting rich, rich, rich.
So what I think I probably want is a Fed that does its job, an SEC that does its job, a reinsitution of Glass-Steagall, and massively progressive taxation of all income to put an end to self-dealing. Give yourself a 10 million dollar salary if you like, the government will be taking 90% of it over 500K, thanks.
Continued… I’m not a huge fan of VAT taxes. Honestly, I’d prefer to just put a progressive income tax in palce.
Could this be why so many companies incorporate in Delaware?
Ownership, legally, is a bundle of rights. Often those rights come with obligations as well. Property ownership has quite a few obligations attached, more than most types of ownership.
great post, Ian, thank you. please continue to write on these matters. I was under the impression that the total number of mortgage resets is a small percentage of total loans nationwide? see this study, Mortgage Payment Reset: The Issue and the Impact
as per pre reagan
were those progressions too severe or just about right?
It seems to me money works best when it is in circulation. As Adam Smith said, if you sit a rich man down for a meal there is only so much he can sonsume. If you sit a poor man down for the same mean, he consumes the same amount. The rest is wasteful hoard. I’m for your plan, Ian. Sounds a lot like FDR.
Like the obligation to pay for the house 2 or 3 times over if you have a mortgage.
Hi Mary!
I’m one who has decided to “walk away” from my house. I am very upside-down here in south Placer County. I lost my job over six months ago due to the corporation’s never-ending quest for cheaper labor, and so I find I qualify for straight Chapter 7 bankruptcy.
Now I could hang on and try to dig out of the hole I am in. I was fortunate enough to recently find another, better job. But my house has gone into foreclosure in the meantime, and because of that I got notice from my credit cards that the interest rate has now gone to more than 32 percent!
So F*k ‘em! Chapter 7 it is for me, and they can take their 32 percent and their 150K upside-down mortgages to their smug little banks!
I don’t know what that means though, any tax could be considered regressive, to me it’s simply perspective
Thirteen percent is quite a lot, really. The problem is that it’s a spiral — housing inventories go up, prices go down. More and more people find that they are “upside down” (their loan is worth more than their house) they walk away, the bank takes over, inventory goes up, housing prices go down. More people find themselves upside down…
And it’s not just about resets, plenty of people, even without resets, are having problems making their loan payments already. As the country moves into a recession, as food and energy prices continue out of control, as the dollar collapses and causes consumer goods inflation, more and more people can’t make ends meet.
Add to that that mortgage loans are becoming much harder to find because many mortgage lenders are either getting stricter or just have less money to lend, and the rate of people buying goes down in general, leaving to even more of a surplus of houses on the market.
So you get yourself a nice (or rather, ugly) self-reinforcing spiral.
Also, I doubt their numbers. They’re almost certainly being too optimistic to think it will only be 13% that foreclose, imo.
I’d say the numbers after Kennedy were probably about right. Although a few years of post WWII tax levels might be a good idea, then reset down to Kennedy levels, to just make it impossilbe to pay youself 100 million to be a CEO.
Even worse. You can choose not to buy a TV, but if you need to drive to work and you’re towards the bottom of the ladder you’re well and truly screwed.
Think about this for the Bible thumpers. Usury is in both the Old and New Testament and in both places they are a no-no.
Those sort of jumping loans should be made illegal, imo.
the more money is in the economy the faster the economy grows, this seems like best case scenario
I believe thomas jefferson was one of the first proponents of a graduated tax and while I don’t have the quote here now, I know he said something to the effect that aquiring wealth through inheritance was one of the worst things for an economy…will look for those quotes
illegal or no, in my case you can see how it works against the banks. It was the jump in interest rate that pissed me off so much that it made the decision for me to BK the the whole shebang.
Well, the thing is, they’re insantity anyway. Someone’s having trouble paying back their debts, so you make their payments even higher? WTF? This isn’t prudent, this is just cruel and stupid.
As ever, thank you Ian.
We already filed for bankruptcy three years ago due to $120,000 in medical bills. After the bk we both got sick again. I think the word for it is fucked.
new jane upstairs
oh jayzus.
what kind of people are we that we let this happen? We can’t claim to be great or even modestly civilized until we socialize our health care.
Linda,
I am in Rancho Cordova. Are you still in Placer county?
If you would like to get in touch my email is marymccurnin@mac.com
This is a throwback to the Poor House mentality. Many of the “criminals” sent to the distant shores of Australia as punishment were people in debt. It took them years to work off their debt as slave labor. Once completed, usually after fifteen to twenty years, they had no way to return to their families in England.
Soon the credit card companies will be waterboarding those that cannot pay. It is more fun that way.
Too bad, I really like this subject. It means something to me. Should I stay down here and talk to myself or join the new thingie upstairs? I read by myslef. Why not talk to myself? OK, I’ll head up the ladder. Click.
Doesn’t that have a lot more to do with the magic of compound interest? You wouldn’t be complaining if you were on the receiving end of those payments (and someone is on the receiving end!) OTOH, you could just save your money and buy the house cash; nobody twists anyone’s arms to take out a mortgage. Or you could pay a year of principal off cash each year or pay an extra payment to be applied to the principal so as to save the interest on that money. You can pay off your home a lot faster that way. Unfortunately, if there is a housing bubble that bursts, that money could go for naught, except that you might never be upside down on your house.
A piece of paper blew onto my path, which I picked up. It was a payday loan agreement. The borrower was being charged 396% interest on $500. borrowed!
Prices are so high that for most people buying on cash would mean they’d never buy.
Of course, that leads to the question of whether so many people should buy. Greenspan though house ownership was a good in itself, and that’s one of the reasons he encouraged the bubble.
one problem with renting is that you can’t deduct the cost of renting your house — but how can you afford to pay taxes on money that is gone to the landlord?
Jefferson Quote:
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
Legalized “usery” predicated on legalized influence peddleing?
Jefferson worst fears, East India Tea Co or Haliburton, its all the same……..
I know that, Ian! I was being facetious!
I remember trying to explain this concept to a tenured professor of mathematics at a major university once. He got it eventually but it was interesting to see how he initially thought that somebody somewhere had that $600,000. I think this is a common problem. People can make money on the upside of a bubble and keep it if they get out in time, but when the bubble bursts, those people who didn’t get out in time or thought the bubble would go on forever get seriously burned.
LOL. Sorry, I’ve had people say that who were dead serious. :)
Ian always informative thank you for sharing in a way most economist cannot lat terms. Read and watched krugman. You provide the solutions he poese the questuins. Interesting how to engineer a healthy economy after the busco rape.
infrastructure for the new age and tech revolution is the one of the answers as is putting a leach on free market by rule, regulation and improving legislation.Subsidies are needed for basic consumer items like energy, food and shelter. Tax credits are a tool that needs expoiting. Progessive tax needs implementing as well as a single payer universal health care plan like DK’s.
Build on that for openers in 2009. Labor needs some protections as does american mfg. Give people incentives to capitalize sustainable industry that is environmentally preffered.
Housing; Give the idle builind undustry incentive to build affordable multifamily housing.
Makes you wonder why interest is charged on loaning someone debt that is created from nothing. I know the interest is profit, but it seems, excessive.
Maybe the banks should charge a reasonable fee to create the money they can create only by those borrowing it, instead of interest. Anyone taking out a loan with them should be required to buy insurance for the loan, and the insurer would make sure that the person was healthy enough financially and that the asset was reasonably priced before approving the loan. Better yet, have the bank take out insurance on his loans, and he can pass the cost on to the customer as part of the fee he charges and still earn a fair profit.
I mean, if people are told they must buy Health Insurance for the day when one of their parts defaults, why not apply the same rule to banks?.
Silly me, they already have insurance, it’s Uncle Sam = us. Forget FDIC, thats a sham to make you think your deposits are safe. And then there are companies like Freddie Mac who guarantee the loans, for a fee. But wait, there would be no way a Federally Sponsored Enterprise like Freddie Mac would get caught guaranteeing sub-prime loans unless they charged enough to cover the risk. Right? Wrong. Thats like insuring an Aids patient at the same rate as a healthy 30 year old. But thats what they did. Guess who is going to pay?
And by the way, did you know the Fed is loaning money to the institutions who created the mess? What are they accepting as assets? The Mortgage Based Securities that are not worth anything? Yep. You know we are going to end up with that on top of Freddie Macs bailout.
But the Arabs, Chinese and Singaporeans are pretty smart, When Citigroup, Merill Lynch, Morgan Stanley went to them for help, they asked for stock, or 10% interest. Not our government though.
Citigroup actually went out and bought 7 companies with 68 billion in debt before the Fed announced they would accept the debt as collateral for new loans. Maybe they had a clue what was coming? You think?
The Investment companies are struggling so much, they still managed to give out bonuses to their executives that increased 14% over last year, about 30 billion in total. Poor guys, they need our help to pay the bonuses to the Execs and make sure the share holders get their dividends.
The only thing that would ice the cake is if I were to find out that many of the sub-prime borrowers were illegals? FUBAR. Consider the caked well iced. Good night.
Our monetary system well described here
http://www.geocities.com/rebor…..ndrake.htm
that is the way it works, but the bank is the insurer with the house as collateral
and that’s why regulation is important because if the bank doesn’t look out for it’s own good, it will be paying out on that insurance with houses worth less then they are coverning for themselves
“The federal reserve “is not a United States Government entity.”” It and its 12 member banks around the United States are a “privately-held” banking consortium
Jefferson Quote:
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people.
This is the quote!!! The desire to keep an aritsocracy from developing was the goal of the estate tax,
“I hope we shall… crush in its birth the aristocracy of our
moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our
government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of
our country.” –Thomas Jefferson to George Logan, 1816.
Jefferson’s fears are realized today in so many ways. A steady dose of Jefferson quotes from the MSM oppossed to “junk news” fed Americans everyday, might have some good results. The truth is the American Government and corporations have merged into one. “Corporgovernment.”
“…AND WHEN IN THE COURSE OF EVENTS ONE SEES, THAT IN ORDER TO PROTECT OUR LIBIERTIES, THE ACTIONS REQUIRED ARE SELF-EVIDENT AND CLEAR………”
The systemic “fucking” of America by well represented corporate interests, using the “color of law” to violate basic constitutional concepts is the reality. Should to list and count the ways the American people have been sodomized by corporate interests using political parties as a mechanism to define and create issues that are red herrings, via MSM and propoganda bullshit???????????
Please be very careful there about the value added tax, it is actually no different than a sales tax on goods and services already in effect. It is as with the sales tax you are familiar with, a highly regressive tax in that it lands disproportionately on those least able to pay – aka – the poor. In Ireland the main taxes levied by the government is the V.A.T. (Value Added Tax), the Income Tax (afflicting wage earners), and the Road Taxes ( a complex of taxes hitting vehicle owner/users). I saw little evidence of VAT relief in the chain of commerce (although I may be mistaken there) and the VAT kept being passed along the chain and being VATed again at a later stage. The VAT rate – 21%. Does take the breath away (and explain the high prices in the Republic as well).
Ian–
(deep in EPU but I hope you read)
I’ve been a close reader of Calculated Risk for two and a half years, but I have to say that this is the best post I’ve seen anywhere embedding this in the macro context. Kudos.
I’ve one minor quibble, or major question depending on how you look at it:
But it’s not gone, right? The guy you paid for the house has $500,000. Manufacturers of flatscreen TVs have the other $100,000.
Where I think money truly can go poof (though I’m still not sure) is when the bank packages it into tranches and then people offer derivatives / puts / calls on those securities. Those are simply bets, and that’s where money really can disappear. On average over many economic paths, it all evens out (according to the models), but in any one realized path, someone is going to owe more than they pledged.
You paid 1MM with the bank’s help, but only sold it for 500K so you probably owe 600K to the bank (assuming that you put down 500K to purchase the 1MM house. If you continue to pay the bank the 600K then the value did not disappear. But it you walk away with it. The bank now has an IOU for 600K which is worth nothing because YOU won’t or can’t PAY. No one, it seems will simply pay the IOU when at payoff they own nothing (remember you sold the house for 500K).. all they have down is honor their IOU and preserved their credit.. the ability to borrow again.
The credit thing works only when real estate values are ALWAYS increasing.
It’s a ponzi scheme and when they run out of suckers it collapses.
We’re running out of suckers even the ones created by the bankers with liar loans and all.
“It’s a ponzi scheme and when they run out of suckers it collapses.”
Your statement is correct. However the people who will suffer the most will be us, not the corporations or the officers charged with running these corporations. A new King and his “corporate cohorts” in colonial crime have been enabled, and a failure to comply with the rule of law is a threat to every American. These bastards are economic terrorist, where you bleed out, slowly, then die………….
True. But the monetary base has just dropped–the value that a bank can lend against has dropped (not by 600K, but by 500). And the uncollected IOU is a drain on the bank’s ability to lend as well. (Or it would be, if fractional reserving was being properly enforced, which it wasn’t – but now as credit derivatives collapse the banks can’t offload default risk as much so the reserve system may actually reappear. As it does reappear you get reverse leverage.