Login HereAccording to the Hill, Reid is considering extending the Protect America Act for one month past its sunset on February 1 in order to avoid the early primary season:
A Rockefeller aide said the senator would support the 30-day extension. But it remains unclear whether Republicans will block Reid’s efforts to extend the PAA.
“I don't see that it benefits us to continue to delay something that we know we need to do,” said Sen. Kit Bond (R-Mo.), vice chairman of the Intelligence Committee.
Reid said he spoke Monday night with Director of National Intelligence Mike McConnell, who agreed that extending the PAA for one month was a “good idea.”
Without extending the time for debate, some Democrats fear that the White House will warn that failure to enact the bill could increase the chances of a terrorist attack and pressure Democrats to pass a bill they oppose — the same scenario as last August.
“People are firm for the moment … but then the intimidation starts,” said Sen. Russ Feingold (D-Wis.), a staunch critic of the telecom immunity provision. “Too often Democrats allow themselves to be intimidated by phony arguments.”
The hypocricy of the Republicans shows through in the Kit Bond statement -- they really don't give a happy hooty about "national security," they just want dog biscuits from Bush and the telecoms for passing retroactive immunity.
Menwhile, the New York Times buries the story on A29. Big media just does not want to cover this.
The delay is good news for us, however, as it allows us more time to organize and get the word out. Working with Glenn Greenwald and others, we'll be sending out action alerts to let you know what you can do to fight the battle against retroactive immunity.
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Jane!
Dos.
Tres. and w00t for Jane, Glenn, and EW!
Bob in HI
Russ Feingold sounds like he’s getting very impatient with his colleagues. “Intimidation” is an ugly word to use, given the comity of the Senate. Perhaps he is speaking of Fourth Branch?
I think this is a dog-whistle to the base (that would be us): Yes, they ARE using the eavesdropping to intimidate my colleagues. Watch. You’ll see.
Never doubt!
“Without extending the time for debate, some Democrats fear that the White House will warn that failure to enact the bill could increase the chances of a terrorist attack and pressure Democrats to pass a bill they oppose — the same scenario as last August.”
Bugga f’ing Bugga!!
If a terrorist attack occurs, it won’t be because of a delay….a delay of what…there won’t be a FISA at all???? How incredibly moronic is that. How can anyone believe this crap. 9/11 happened on Bush’s watch, and they were already spying on everyone!!!!
Ya know, why doesn’t someone intimidate the WH that they are going to be held accountable for their lies and fuckery.
Dayem, throw this crappola back in their faces.
OT, but Dodd to be on Countdown in just a few minutes!
Dodd on Countdown tonite…
Dodd’s going to be on Countdown. Allison still filling in for KO.
details details, please
Done. Thanks, Jane.
We need to contact our congresscritters and tell them to change their vocabulary and take out words like fear, scared, frightened, terrified and you know the rest. Don’t even keep them in the public psychic by criticizing Repugs for being fearmongering. Instead, start to replace fear words with courage, heroic, guts, spunk, and again, you know the words.
Who would you like these replacement words to describe? Certainly not the Democratic leadership!
Well, I’d LIKE them to describe the Democratic leadership…
Well, so far we’ve had 10 minutes on how to corral The Big Dog…
Surely you’re not encouraging lying!
Dodd and Edwards have more courage in their little fingers than all the pukes put together…
Pelosi/Reid….they’ve gotta go…
1,699 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“But it remains unclear whether the Republicans will block Reid’s efforts to extend the PAA.”
And now, after a few real Democrats stood firm thru the smoke and mirrors of the fascists behind the curtain, One Hung Harry Reid is exposed as unable to advance anything on the floor of the Senate without the approval of the minority caucus…good God, Aristophanes coulda written this scenario!! What the fuck…the Senate majority leader can’t find his ass with a flashlight and both hands and needs to consult with the MINORITY to get a piece of legislation out. The Norske has been sayin’ for the last 3 dayz that ol’ One Hung is goin’ down, he can’t survive beyond this Spring.
He is gunna hafta go back to his own caucus now and forge consensus in his own party on what will be acceptable…then he’s gunna hafta organize with his own senior leadership to determine a strategy to advance whatever comes outta the caucus. When this is done and the FISA situation is resolved, Harry will resign as leader. And all this is gunna play out in front of God and everyone…he is gunna go down as one of the most pathetic figures in modern political history. Ans his leaving is gunna collapse the corporatist house of cards fashioned by the Clintonistas in the Senate.
This is a good time ta be a progressive!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND GOOD THINGS WILL COME TO THOSE WHO DO GOOD!!!
No, but I’m surely encouraging a rich and active fantasy life… and prayer…!
Feingold…very courageous…Leahy…Kennedy…strong…
“Ya know, why doesn’t someone intimidate the WH that they are going to be held accountable for their lies and fuckery.
Dayem, throw this crappola back in their faces.”
Oh, but that would require putting impeachment back on the table, wouldn’t it? {/snark}
Why do the Democrats think that fighting fair means that one side has to tie one hand behind its back?
Bob in HI
Me, too!
And Wyden(sp)?
Did you get a chance to…gag…read Pelosi’s comments at Kos?? She didn’t know that they wouldn’t come around….She thought the pukes would see the light….She is just very unintelligent.
Yeah!
Hi Ann - Words can be a weapon., a control mechanism. I’m referring to the words themselves that are directed at people. How many times do people say “I’m scared”. Of what and why? If I called my state of being “scared” I become immobilized. When someone in congress describes the people as “scared” that’s not me. Replace these words that the Administration has used so well to manage people.
I’ve been shocked at the lack of coverage. CNN had a tiny bit about Democrats delaying the bill… …no mention of Dodd or the mornings events.
Did you hear Cenk Uygur?
He takes democratic rep Steve Israel to the woodshed for the capitulate at all costs attitude.
There’s a seat for Harry right next to Daschle.
I was wondering if anyone had a list of who all spoke yesterday or where I could find that? Mostly I wanted to know which Dems I might have missed; I know I missed part of Wyden’s speech, but I liked the part I saw. And I know I missed some of the Rethugs, because I missed them intentionally. Some of them I just can’t listen to.
I think we should go back to the days when warmongering leaders were forced to “lead” the actual war incursions!!! Huh, W…Cheney? Yeah? Think you can woop anyone’s ass for real???? Gimme a break.
I’m not familiar with the parliamentary procedures in Congress. How do we replace Reid and Pelosi? Do we have a chance before the 2008 elections? Gawd, but they’re useless… Worse than useless, actually. Useless would not get in the way and seem to actively suck up to Repuglicans…
Reid and Emmanuel figured nobody was watching, they were wrong. Now they’ve punted, figuring Dodd will be busy once the primaries start — they’ll be wrong again. They’re so afraid of a fight that will force the candidates to actually stand for something that they’re willing to sell out the rest of us.
why does george bush want his pals to be able to keep property they stole from Americans?
why do telephone companies want to keep us from seeing if they stole from us if they did nothing wrong?
why are republicans trying to allow corporations to keep stolen property?
why are republicans allowing corporations to put national security at risk?
oh man, the questions that can ben asked would send SHIVERS up their spines…if they had spines
I agree. If war is your policy, the Leader needs to be in the forefront of the battle and LEAD by example. It’s been done many times throughout history.
Here is my problem with this scenario. When the PAA was rammed through in August, most, if not almost all, of the losers we call congresscritters, mostly out of ignorance but at least semi-honest ignorance, could say they had no idea about a whole bunch of background and facts behind the illegal surveillance and bogus legal basis claimed for it. Now, there is simply a ton of more information that they would have had to knowing disregard to still claim ignorance. So, if they agree to “extend” the PAA, they are effectively giving credence to it and the illegitimate bases it was enacted upon. Neither the PAA, nor the BS the Administration pitched to get it passed should be so ratified, even to the limited extent of an “extension”. This is an asinine plan to get past some electoral pressure points to a safer place and time for them to screw the public. I don’t like the extension idea at all.
Of course not, they don’t cover “real” threats to expose their crap, they only cover Huckleberry Christmas card videos, and Mitt Moronmy and Ghouliani (not so much this week), and Hillary and Bill…and Brittany…
But, really great American patriots…like Dodd, like Edwards, like Feinstein…nah…
Jeez Louise, but Ghouliani really does look like Nosferatu… Creepy in the extreme.
i have an alternative hypothesis on why reid pulled the bill last night.
could it be pressure from one or more of the other senators who are presidential candidates? (not directly, but through third parties)… maybe they’d prefer to have some primary under their belt? maybe it wasn’t the phone calls to reid’s office that generated so much of the pressure. could it have been phone calls to clinton, obama and biden demanding their presence in dc?
just a wild guess… but this further delay is consistent with that idea (of wanting to get past the earlier primaries before having the this fight out).
Jane, I wish I could convince my Luddite friends to set up separate gmail accounts, but most are dependent on the employer’s email accounts and employer’s computers. *sigh* I can’t forward their email addresses for action alerts. I do, however, call them when stuff comes up, or email them asking them to call me. Many are locked into a computer all day long, ergo, a computer is the last thing they want to see when they get home. Still, I’ve been able to twist the arms of a few. I understand why that friends and family screen pops up every time for stuff like this… but in my case it doesn’t work very well. Still, I can (and, do) adapt.
makes your skin crawl, doesn’t it?
I suspect, personally, that the “delay” is designed to create more time to figure out a way to kibosh Dodd. I don’t think it’s good news at all. Plus, it just opens up more space to blame Dems…one more stupid move by Reid. Fortunately, we are going to build the momentum…to counter these people.
huh…watch what?…me wants to see, me jumps up and down and wants to see
of COURSE they have spied on lawmakers, of COURSE they are
blackmailingholding information over their headand we MUST ask pelosi, is THAT why you are allowing the most lawless president in history to continue to break our law, is THAT why you are abandoning YOUR OATH OF OFFICE?
The question is can you convince a majority of their colleagues of that, because they have to vote, and in this case, they have to actually create an action to depose two of their top leaders. Then again, they’d have to get the colleagues to focus on this in an election year. This would be a Herculean task, in my view!
AWWWWW…Nobody wants to option Turdblossom’s book… I weep. For joy.
this is a very useful link: c-span’s new video library archive for senate floor debate.. it’s not as complete as the congressional record (one-liners and statements less than 30 sec are not included), but it is much easier to you.
Hardball had a great Edwards interview. john talked about issues and issues only. None of this Bill strays stuff or the Muslim scandal. Was the best I have seen He has grown a lot.
Since Emanuel is part of the house leadership, where does he fit into your scenario?
the following is old news, I read of this some time ago but think progress is reporting it again, I suppose a new incident regarding my bold has been unturned?
Let it sunset without an extention. We still have a very effective law on the books that protects us & the constitution.
But that isn’t what Reid or the GOP wants now is it.
I think we as bloggers may have just found our Waterloo.
We need to fight & not kick the can down the street.
Speaking of kicking the can down the street, just another example as to why Reid should not be the majority leader.
Thank you! Serious Geek-Porn!
“turdblossum”
and that is the name bush gave him and it is somehow a nickname of endearment to this pastey faced “aid to the president”
Seriously…in Pelosi’s case…she is just plain stupid.
Of course they are spying on everyone…for heaven’s sake….Rove was there for 7 frikkin’ years!!! How can that even be a question….that is what Rove does…Specter’s letter says they were illegally spying…they spy…they are spyers…
Someday, I pray, I will experience the satisfaction of seeing these people held accountable to the fullest extent of the law…every last one of them. It is just so tragic for this country and the rest of this great planet.
Maybe it will be a “pamphlet”…
pelosi: is she naive or just playing coy?
I saw it, he was really great!
Dodd up next!
Both.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/.....-laughter/
Iraq, Iran, Nuclear weapons in the mideast, hee hee hee funny funny. Think Progress has the video. Once again Kommander Comedy Guy is amused by Iraq. The Occupation of Iraq is not just about war profiteering and stealing Oil, and creating a fascist state.
It is also a source of amusement to the war mongers, as Pete Stark, a great Congressman said. Nancy Pelosi, you need to watch the video and learn how wrong you are.
Well said!
I’m sending that link to my congressman.
He gets lots of those “Don’t you dare cave on this issue” calls from me, and he almost always caves.
Notice that he didn’t answer at the end with the correct answer: Neither.
I accept the notion that my party has been bullied, frightened and intimidated by the Bush Administration for many years. For myself this begs the question, who’s fault is that?
Waiting for Dodd on Olbermann.
And Teddy K won’t like it either. If Reid tries this trick of extension. Teddy is gonna pop a vein for sure. I’ll be waiting for that show!
I thought about that. You may be right.
Well, he laughs at “underlings” all the time… It’s what morons do.
I think Mikulski came really close to explaining the real congressional “fear” yesterday, when she recounted the anthrax attacks, which her office also received…
I’ll leave it at that.
I don’t think she’s stupid, I had some real respect for her till she started acquiescing to the president
something serious is going on
Dodd on Countdown now..
is there a link to the feingold statement that was alluded to before?
Dodd: “If it (immunity in FISA) comes back up in January, I’ll be right back up there.”
let me ask a technical question from the lawyers here;
isn’t it impossible to grant “retroactive immunity” to a third party since it denies due process?
for instance, how can they grant immunity from telecoms stealing from me?
I have been denied due process, true?
So Reid is in touch with Jay Rockefeller and Mike McConnell but not Leahy or Dodd. This tells you all your really need to know about what Reid is up to and why he must go as Majority Leader and Rockefeller as chair of the Intelligence Committee.
Dodd’s action energized the base. Does Reid learn from this? Yes, he does everything to stifle it.
Are we a democracy, do we have freedom of speech? Is she compromised? Can she take the heat? Now is the time for all good men and women to come to the aid of their party…and not just stand there, mouths agape, acquiescing to every little thing the prez wants.
Stand up and FIGHT.
Alison just asked the money question, “Clinton, Obama, and Biden all said they supported your position yet they weren’t there. This is a time when you needed to be there physically to support this. Are you upset that your colleagues were not there for you?”
correct me if i’m wrong, but wasn’t bush v. gore a due process argument?
Here’s Feingold’s statement…
http://www.commondreams.org/ar.....2/18/5881/
but the due process was decided by the courts, which was quite a bit of (particent) due process
Dodd invited Alison Stewart out to Iowa for a good ride inside his bus.
I will say he has good taste in traveling companions.
Good for you. At least you have a congressman who caves. I have Issa…who sits in Bush’s lap and licks him.
Yeah, I saw it. I think the reaction is a little overblown. Yes, she should have crafted a better game plan for the 110th Congress than the stupid one she has been sticking to. But in a normal year, historically considered, at this point in an 8 year presidency with the Prez riding low in the water, it was reasonable to expect more Republicans to jump ship.
But they had no Plan B! The Democratic Leadership went into the 110th Congress like Donald Rumsfeld’s invasion force went to Baghdad. I don’t mind that their game plan didn’t work. I would still argue that Pelosi never should have taken impeachment off the table from the get-go, but what freaks me out is that they keep calling the same dang plays that don’t work, and so every time they get the ball, its three plays and a punt.
Every football coach knows that if you’re approaching half-time, and the other team’s defense is kicking your butt, and your offense has only been able to score a few field goals, then maybe the original game plan wasn’t so hot, and its time to adjust.
OK let’s shift metaphors. You know the old joke about a definition of insanity being when you keep trying the same thing and keep expecting a different result than the result you’ve been getting over and over? I’m beginning to think that our Democratic leadership is insane.
Get a grip, Nancy!
Bob in HI
i think when the senate has late night votes like this they should have to pass a blood alcohol test at the door before being admitted to the floor.
OT, but…
in response to Hugh downstairs - Harry aka ‘Rusty’ Reid it is.
just sayin
revolting image of a revolting man.
He’s tarnishing our good name as Democrats; that’s the problem.
People are really angry because they switched to vote for a Democrat, because things are going so badly here.
And the Democrat votes…exactly like a Republican would, except he was for SCHIP and maybe one other thing.
You all are assuming that Orrin Hatch has a working head.
I’m reminded of what Dan Drezner told Brad DeLong;
They’re always hacks. Always.
What did harry reid just say? something about a judge reviewing a “matter that was up a few days ago”? and there may be a vote ….? quoi?
Too many DC cocktail parties…
I would prefer simple logic puzzles. This would rule out all the Republicans and still let Ted Kennedy vote.
It’s the “surge” mentality. it’s contagious. you keep doing the same thing insisting it’s working. Denial is not just a river in egypt.
“Dodd invited Alison Stewart out to Iowa for a good ride inside his bus.
I will say he has good taste in traveling companions.”
{sigh} I’d like to invite her, too, but I haven’t got a campaign bus. Maybe I could offer the Woodie Allen thing and offer to show her my collection of filthy Italian hand gestures? (What’s Up, Tiger Lilly?)
Anyway, I got to see her new look last night. I think they’re trying to market her now as more mainstream, but in retrospect I actually liked her kinky hair better. But I guess Everyone Knows that a Serious News Anchor can’t have Kinky Hair. Sic transit gloria mundi. Or something like that.
Bob in HI
i did think it was because of time constraints - until i started watching c-span2 today. what i saw was time-filler and waste on the senate floor. made me reconsider my understanding of the dynamics involved.
caveat - we were without power for part of the day, so i may have missed something. will review the congressional record tomorrow…. but if today was really a junk day on the senate floor, then suddenly dropping the fisa bill last night is unlikely to have been because they had so much they wanted to get done today…. unless they were waiting on that major bill from the house that was supposed to done late monday night (and so on to the senate this morning). if that bill got delayed in the house, that could explain a nothing day in the senate. i’ll have to check that too.
not my idea of transparent government, but at least we have tools available to try to tease out what’s going on.
The simple matter of it is, is that Sen. Dodd would make a better President than either of the two front runners.
LOL!
Jane! patriot extraordinaire!
thanks for all you do!
emails coming — we’re ready and waiting for jan 15 or feb 15!
Man, you’re right. No plan B. At least none planned by the leadership.
What is involved in replacing the leadership? Is it worth the bad press for dems at this point? I understand that W and Dick should have been impeached and held for war crimes by now, but is it worth it now and risk losing the presidency, and therefore the republic?
Yes! The Dems get all…”love ya man”….and the pukes get “belligerent and have rumors in their minds of their power”….
Not a good mix.
It is my conviction that the republic is lost if we don’t impeach because that means the constitution has ceased to function as the basis of govt.
Sic transit crinis crispus.
LS says Too many DC cocktail parties…
Let’s crash ‘em.
She’s cute, and…well, you know, women like to change their looks…She’s cute both ways!
Hi everyone. Have what probably is a stupid question:
If the bill is brought to the floor and it contains amnesty, and Sen. Dodd wants to filibuster, he must be recognized (not sure of the terminology) before he can speak. Is it possible for someone on the Senate floor to refuse to recognize him, thus preventing him from filibustering?
Isn’t it awful when we start thinking this way?
If someone knows the answer, maybe we can somehow help Sen. Dodd be recognized.
Thanks.
Grassley’s aide is holding up a picture of what looks like Bill Murray. It’s so funny i don’t even want to turn the sound on!
Kinky? Those were some beautiful curls.
Good work, Jane! Ms. Hamsher at her stick-it-to-’em best. :o)
This is a GOOD battle to fight. :o)
Dayem Loo Hoo, if I lived in DC…I would!! Besides…free drinks and horses ovaries…good one’s too!!
If the bill is brought to the floor and it contains amnesty, and Sen. Dodd wants to filibuster, he must be recognized (not sure of the terminology) before he can speak. Is it possible for someone on the Senate floor to refuse to recognize him, thus preventing him from filibustering?
Isn’t it awful when we start thinking this way?
But we must, as gandhi said, BE the change we want to see in the world. THAT means WE need to anticipate the worst with these guys and ALWAYS have a plan B, the Plan B the dems dont’ ever have.
I bow before my master.
BTW, have you noticed the new feature on Countdown? What do they call it– “Bushed”? Are they using your list? or maybe inspired by your list? If not, you should send it to’em. That should keep them going through the primary season, and then they can start over– or maybe by then there will be a few dozen more high crimes and misdemeanors to talk about.
Bob in HI
I have a friend who has extensions…she can wear them curly or straight.
” In response to bobschacht @ 91
Kinky? Those were some beautiful curls.”
Well, cross “beautician” off my list of employment possibilities. They were indeed beautiful, but I think we need more help from Hugh here.
Bob in HI
Senate approves 70bil for wars, goes to house…the dems.. the gift that keeps on giving and giving in
I strongly agree - it’s a back door endorsement.
(barring there being something critically necessary in the PAA of which I’m unaware).
They’d never get a quorum, even first thing in the morning!
The discussion tonight is nothing short of brilliant. Best political strategy lesson I’ve ever witnessed at FDL. Thanks.
Not a clue — I just hate the DLC on principal and assume they’re responsible for all the “bipartisanship”/capitulation that goes on.
Hubba Hubba–
As I was reading down this thread, and read the article from The Hill, that’s exactly what ran through my mind the second I read about the Intimidation Crap that prompted the rush to pass the PAA.
The Bush administration, their FAA, Condi’s NSA, the clowns at FBI, and the incurious administration were the main reasons that 911 succeeded. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. Bush and many people in his camp know this everyday they get up.
Rice’s refusal to acknowledge that she was asleep at the switch in the Ice Queen’s interview or whatever the hell it was with the flawed 911 Commission is one example of this.
She intimated she had no actionable intelligence. Bullshit.
This goes to the blatant fact that Bush’s watch and the insipid Republican lap dog Congress, and now, very regrettably the insipid Democratic lap dog Congress have done little to keep us safe, but a lot to step all over our privacy and Bill of Rights.
I might add that the incompetent Mueller FBI, the incompetent then Condi NSA, and a number of other of the 16 so-called U.S. “Security” agencies fucked up dramatically in not translating the documents Sibel Edmonds showcased
ACLU: A Patriot Silenced
http://www.aclu.org/scotus/200.....50926.html
http://www.justacitizen.com/
http://www.informationclearing.....le9774.htm
http://www.democracynow.org/20....._house_had
and the only reason her lawsuit was shut down in the D.C. Circuit and the Supreme Court refused to grant cert. after it was appealed by ACLU was because the Bush rubberstamps on the D.C. Circuit shut it down using the State Secrets excuse. This is one more example of the timid federal appellate courts putting their tails between their wimpy legs cowtowing to Bush because the fearmongering is very effective in getting them to suckup the State Secrets argumnents.
The same argument worked on John Bates last week in the FISC ruling against ACLU.
It’s going to continue to act to foreclose your access to information on why the Comcos (Maddog’s term to include the ISPs that are eavesdropping on you):
From Maddog on one of the Empty Wheel threads (I’m quoting it because I believe it makes an important point):
MadDog @144 (link below)
http://emptywheel.firedoglake......ment-39132
I noticed last night that the concept of what Telcom or Comco Immunity really meant flew right over Allison’s pretty new hair do.
She just didn’t get the implications.
Her new hair looks fantastic IMHO–much better than the kink look. But if you DVR’d her comments last night and questioning of the WaPo columnist on what happened in the Senate, Allison had no grasp of the significance of Immunity or the other aspects of S. 2248. She kept asking several repeat questions that were tantamount to:
“What’s the big deal with Immunity”
It wasn’t the snarky attitiude of WaPo or NYT putting the Dodd effort on page twenty-something. Rather it was just that reading and understanding what the issue was about was a little more journalism drilling than Allison is ever going to do unless it’s spoonfed to her by an intern or producer.
Allison:
Typical of good looking media babes who are there more because of their looks than their ability to understand issues”
Duh and triple duh
“You came to the floor angrily.
“Why did Immunity raise anger in you.”?
Her question on where the hell the Hillster, Obama, and Biden were was considerably better.
So was the one on why Reid put the SISC bill on the floor was considerably better as well.
The “regular order” explanation is bullshit. Reid wanted to kill the SJC bill period.
This delay is not good news for us. If it was, Reid wouldn’t be doing it.
The PAA was introduced on August 1, passed by the Senate on August 3, and by the House on August 4. It accomplishes nothing useful for the American people at all; Bush just wants cover for the criminal offenses his administration has already committed. Don’t give it. Let the damned thing die, put a stake through its heart, and bury it. If the original FISA bill needs updating, let them start over and do it right.
That’s what got us into Iraq.
That’s also why I still support Kucinich, even over Dodd. Kucinich did not allow himself to be intimidated by the phony arguments that got us into this immoral and illegal war.
By the by, I don’t hear much about basket/umbrella/progressive warrants. Are we going to cave on them? Have we already done so?
It can’t be repeated enough that the Bush administration was acting in violation of the law prior to September 11, 2001, and that did not protect us. They took our liberties and gave us nothing. How would we the people benefit by us now handing over those liberties?