The particulars of how the day will unfold are still being haggled at the moment. Sen. Chris Dodd has objected to proceding on the Dodd/Feingold amendment to cut immunity from the SIC bill under a unanimous consent provision. Floor speeches are ongoing — Sen. Whitehouse is up at the moment — while Dodd, Reid, and a number of other folks haggle out what will and will not happen today. Who will stand for liberty and the rule of law? I’ll be watching…
Emptywheel quoted from the findings of the Church Committee Report yesterday, and I wanted to amplify a portion for everyone that is particularly applicable in the context of the current flouting of the FISA laws:
-The crescendo of improper intelligence activity in the latter part of the 1960s and the early 1970s shows what we must watch out for: In time of crisis, the Government will exercise its power to conduct domestic intelligence activities to the fullest extent. The distinction between legal dissent and criminal conduct is easily forgotten. Our job is to recommend means to help ensure that the distinction will always be observed.
-In an era where the technological capability of Government relentlessly increases, we must be wary about the drift toward “big brother government.” The potential for abuse is awesome and requires special attention to fashioning restraints which not only cure past problems but anticipate and prevent the future misuse of technology.
-We cannot dismiss what we have found as isolated acts which were limited in time and confined to a few willful men. The failures to obey the law and, in the words of the oath of office, to “preserve, protect, and defend” the Constitution, have occurred repeatedly throughout administrations of both political parties going back four decades….
Which leads me to something that Bruce Fein said in an interview a while back:
…Bush’s precedents are dangerous, and will lie around like loaded weapons readily unleashed by any incumbent in times of strife or conflict, e.g., a second edition of 9/11. …as Justice Brandeis amplified, all government lawlessness is dangerous because it teaches people by its example. We are more likely to lose democracy on the installment plan like the Roman Republic as chronicled by Gibbon than by a military-industrial coup. In addition, we should never be satisfied by simply avoiding being a police state, but as Washington lectured at the Constitutional Convention, we should strive to set a standard to which the wise and honest may repair…. (emphasis mine)
With substantial power comes a concommitant and substantial responsibility to ensure that this power is neither misused nor abused in any way that runs contrary to the interests of justice, the Constitution and the rule of law. Mary had an excellent list of issues that every American ought to have with how the flouting of the FISA laws has occurred, and she ended with this point:
Here’s a proposed compromise that makes sense and should address the concerns of needing to have corporations work with government, while protecting the equality of the three branches of government. Offer up immunity – for the time period beginning on 9/11 (but not before) and ending when the Patriot Act was passed (10-24 I think?)
That takes care of the concerns. Corporations will be protected for acting in exigent circumstances, but they need to know that if they continue to cooperate soley with the Executive, in secret, without ever receiving supporting legislation – they are then on their own and will have to rely upon Presidential pardons if they proceed past the point where legislation could legitimately have been proposed.
The prosecutor in me wants to say that breaking the law is just that and ought to be punished accordingly. The FISA laws are, after all, not all that hard to interpret for the legions of paid corporate counsel that likely pored over it for these telecoms. But the former mediator in me sees this for the common sense solution that it is — and for the political bluff calling maneuver this could be. Unfortunately, it won’t be on the table today, but it could be if this legislation is stalled and tabled…which is exactly what could happen with a successful fillibuster. We’ll see what happens as the day moves onward.




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No immunity!
Finegold in post cloture comments just thanked Lahey and Whitehouse for their leadership on this. I don’t understand.
Absolutely NO immunity, Mr. Whitehouse.
-S
Whitehouse joins in Specter’s insane idea that the government substitute itself as the defendant in all of the pending civil litigation against the telecoms.
I expected better from him.
I thought Boxer was on fire earlier.
Senator Whitehouse just did weigh in on immunity…in defense of the poor, abused telecoms because they were told they were not allowed to defend themselves against the lawsuits due to national security. Apparently Whitehouse doesn’t trust the legal system. I’ll never trust him or respect him again, no matter what he does from now on.
Oh boy, first Whitehouse’s capitulation and now DiFi’s up, I can’t wait..
Whitehouse’s wrong-headed thinking would still, if passed, provoke a prezzy veto…
(((((((Christy!)))))))
It will be amazing if the Genie of Secret Absolute Power is put back in the bottle of Checks and Balances!
Immunity and Basket Warrants are but Cloaks for Thieves of the Public Good…
Has Whitehouse ever given a coherent explanation for why he supports immunity for telecoms and basket warrants?
Not yet.
But my view is not about the crappy President; it’s about Whitehouse, himself. He’s a marshmellow. All puff and flavor, very little substance and almost no nourishment value.
Trying to switch computers. http://cspan.org/ gives me the message
“Error: Host Not Accessible
The web host cspan.org is not accessible.”
General Warrants and Writs of Assistance. Perversely befitting of our new King George.
Yes he did. See my #6.
DiFi: “the administration made a big mistake” by not using FISA. NOT… they broke the law.
Wow, just a mistake…..”that was a big mistake” she says again
Boy… if I rob a bank…. will it just be “a mistake?”
A mistake is “by accident.” On purpose is not an accident!
never mind. found it another way. http://www.cspan.org/watch/
I just called senator Feinstein’s office: the staffer I spoke with claimed that the senator is now working to allow lawsuits to take place. She could not say if it would specifically allow the EFF’s 2-year old lawsuit* to keep going. If this is correct, then it’s a major change for senator Feinstein.
Has Senator Feinstein changed her mind?
——-
* when the staffer said she didn’t know about ‘individual’ lawsuits, I had to tell her that the EFF’s lawsuit was 1. the only game in town– it’s the one written about in, for example, the NYTimes article, 2. the cause of the case for immunity, as all other lawsuits had been shut down by Bush’s administration.
I’m streaming from CSPAN OK right now, TexB
psst Hi!
I stipulated coherent. *g*
Shorter #6: Whitehouse is either in telecom’s deep pockets, or wants to be.
Hi Christy.
Match the names of the pro-immunity Dems with those of the pro-war Dems in the war funding vote coming up soon.
Name comes up twice? (worse, thrice re the last war supplemental) We might as well enshrine them in the Nancy “Come to Think of it, George Just Needs Our Love” Pelosi, Hall of Great 20th Century Political Con Artists.
Hugh, beat me to it — he said “coherent” ; )
I know, and agree.
Desperately seeking a silver lining….
Instructive flowchart to track the Senate proceedings.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/…..343/422731
In defense of Whitehouse (though I disagree with him) the telcos ARE in a crazy bind. Bushco has invoked the “states secrets privledge” and refuses to allow the telcoms to say whether o not they even did what thy ae accused of.
So, imagine if you are a telcom, you get sued by a particular subscriber for events during a particular time period. You check your own records and lo and behold, you find you have rock solid documentary proff that you did NOT engage in tha t behavior at that time.
You have an alibi. Yippee! right?
Wrong. Bushco won’t let you say that you have an alibi, he won’t let you confess jusgement if you are guilty. He won’t let the telcoms say ANYTHING in their own defense other than that they thought what they were doing was legal.
It’s like he has teurned them into marrionettes with this “states secrets” bullshit. Frnakly, I think they should al be making motions in camera to try to get the court to rule, that states secrets do not apply in these cases, or that the defenses can be offered in some controlled way and the cases proceed.
The problem is that the W/H is tying the hands of the telcos to defend themselves. The problem is the W/H
Wow! Thanks dov!
You guys, I know that Whitehouse is wrong on immunity.
But (and DiFi) are doing something arguably as important–trying to limit the ways that the govt can tap Americans. It is more important to you NOW, going forward, that the minimization requirements be subject to oversight. They are not now, nor would they be if the SSCI bill passes. It is also more important to those of you who travel overseas that you not be subject to surveillance any time you leave the country.
In other words, as bad as Whitehouse is on immunity, he is trying to attend to making sure Bush can’t overstep going forward.
The telecom immunity provisions are the proverbial cherry on the sundae. The program is an unconstitutional emdrun around the search warrant requirement in the Bill of Rights. For god’s sake, why do we give a shit whether the telecoms can be sued for damages by people who can’t prove they were harmed because the government won’t release any records that will prove they were the objects of surveillance? This just tempers the unconstitutionality of the program but doesn’t remove the taint. When flaming wingnuts like Bruce Fein find the program objectionable, it has to be over the top.
Here we go…She no doubt believes it should be passed from telecoms to the fed as the target. NO!
DiFi is blathering and lying. She was saying that both the Intel and SJC versions would both protect Americans’ privacy. She is being really tricky about how she is portraying what the Intel version does. She is credulous with regard to how a “target” is defined. She gives no evidence about how this would prevent reverse targeting of Americans. She goes on to minimization and says FISA can approve or disapprove in advance. But before the fact, the FISA court has nothing to go on except the government’s assurances. She then says FISA will do constant monitoring. It won’t and although there may be some monitoring it is my understanding that the FISA court can’t actually reject or change minimization procedures after the fact. The devil as they say is in the details and DiFi is hiding behind these and not giving anything like a true accounting of what the Intel actually does.
So is the telcom immunity the trade off for tightening up the legislation? If that is true, Feinstein and Whitehouse may have a point. I’m finding her argument reasonably compelling.
People can leave a message of support for Dodd and the filibuster at http://chrisdodd.com/standwithdodd You can also view the disturbing whip count.
BTW, printed out and read Dodd’s speech somewhat closely.
We should spotlight that speech EVERYWHERE
some observations. 1)That speech was just chock full of FDL memes. Whoever wrote it, took what we say in the posts and comment threads very seriously.
2) that speech has some great quoatable one and two liners. We need to echo chamber his words EVERYWHERE
3) He all but cals the President a criminal. This is much further than I ever expected him to go (Dog bless him) and may have signifigance far beyond this bill. There were many comparrisions to Nixon and I think maybe Dodd is trying to do a little priming of the pump himself.
4) this, coupled with KO’s new feature–Buscho scandals that happened very recently, but you already forgot about in the gush of new scandals, might get us to that tipping point.
KEEP CALLING folks. Not just today–this could easily be a two week effort
Feinstein is a LIAR. The Telecoms that went along DID profit from this illegality: they got juicy new government contracts while the SOLE outsider, QWest, got punished. Feinstein is a goddamned liar.
I don’t think there’s any trade off here. Just a gut feeling. Didja hear Reid keep saying how he agrees with his friend from Connecticut? I think he really meant Liberman, though. He’ll probably be endorsing McCain soon, too.
Dodd has some old Lamont hands. Tagaris for one. Doesn’t surprise me. Makes me kinda proud he took on the crew. (Disclaimer: not a volunteer yet.)
Hey DiFi – what ever happened to “Ignorance of the Law Is No Excuse”?
mui1, this this a better link:
http://action.chrisdodd.com/signUp.jsp?key=1639
Feinstein is also second guessing the Courts that CLEARLY determined that the Telcos are not likely to win. She is NOT a judge and is NOT educated or smart enough to yank Court control.
Dodd is right. The whole program is a constitutional travesty. Ben Franklin is rolling over in his grave. If Dodd stopped short of calling Bush a criminal then he’s lost his nerve.
Really? Two weeks? How so? I thought it’d get done today.
Found this on BoingBoing and thought that people might want to know about it:
Is this why bush is always saying: nobody ever told me that!
That AT&T (and other 3-letter agencies of the administration) had to go to the Senate to get the EFF’s lawsuit stopped, a lawsuit that’s survived 23 months of the government trying to shut it down, tells me that this one ongoing lawsuit is important.
If they aren’t held accountable then it doesn’t matter what a new law says. Any and every restriction that the Senate thinks it is putting on the administration can be broken with the magic phrase “we’ll make it legal.”
AT&T broke the law? We made it legal. Overseas travellers were subject to surveillance? We’ll make it legal.
I talked to Hillary campaign in Iowa and asked for a position. I called her local office in Iowa twice and her state headquarters in Des Moines. I told them how disappointed I was that she chose to campaign in Iowa rather than protecting our privacy rights in Senate and supporting Senator Dodd. I strongly requested immediate answers since I am an Iowa caucus goer.
I am not holding my breath. The ball is firmly in her court as far as any credibility she has from me. If I do get an answer back I will report.
Feinstein speech points out that bush broke the law! Now the cat is out of the bag. There is now congressional record that states that the laws were broken by the administration. Impeachment should be the next order of business!
lhp,
I do not agree. The telecoms had a surefire defense which was not dependent on the Bush Administration. They only had to not engage in activities which they knew to be illegal. All they had to do was point to the court order which required them to cooperate with the government.
The simple truth is that the telecoms’ defense is not being hampered by the government’s state secrets argument. It is their defense because beyond it they have nothing.
My Senator Feinstein’s up…let’s see if she argues for simply putting all Americans in chains.
*…listening with optimism…*
Sounds so far like she’s making her Mukasey argument again, essentially, agreeing to being raped means it’s not rape anymore, so it’s better.
*…back to listening, works even harder to stay optimistic…*
Oh Jesus, now she’s arguing in defense of the telcos. “Vee vere just following orders.”
I’m just watching Joe Lierberman in a purple dress.
DiFi:
FISA court to determine immunity?
Did letters sent to carriers met terms of FISA law?
Was it done in good faith?
Did defendant provide assistance?
I am convinced Reid loves, loves himself some lieberman.
he is a criminal and like his grand poppy is engaging in crimial enterprise during a war…and the complicity of our dems is a sellout on all of us
Would it be too much to hope for that maybe Reid and Dodd are working together.
Filibuster and stall to the point where the republicans start vocally calling the Dems obstructionist and demand an up or down vote. As proceedings get closer and closer to the holiday break Reid decides to appease the republican call to get bill passed and keeps congress in session thus preventing any further recess appointments by el chimpo. We could shove the Republican calls of being upstructionist down their throats. Dem senators get in front of every camera they can talking about how the Democratic caucus is fighting for the constitution and rights of Americans even to the point of giving up their holiday..
Not sure if this is even possible… hell even if possible I don’t see it happening, but we all still need dreams right?
Feinstein is making the point about the poor telecoms again also. What they don’t mention is that this has been considered and adjudicated, or at least I thought it had, and the judge said something like it is ludicrous that the telecoms believed these letters to be a legitimate legal basis to deliver access to our communications to the government, given their access to very expensive lawyers.
I find it ridiculous (there’s that word again, LHP) that all this has been brought out publicly on the front page of so many major newspapers and on TV and other media, yet it’s all supposed to be such a state secret. This is all BS, IMO!
At least Feinstein is suggesting to put the question to the FISA court. I would accept their decision.
This is what gets me. Let the courts decide. Congress is sticking its nose where shouldn’t be, up Chimpy’s youknowwhat.
Feinstein speech points out that bush broke the law! Now the cat is out of the bag. There is now congressional record that states that the laws were broken by the administration. I don’t think her amendment is what the people want or to protect our constitution. Impeachment should be the next order of business for this administration breaking of the law!
a miracle…if i copuld believe!
Kennedy up … we’ll see
I would NOT accept the FISA court ruling. I want the full Judicial system to speak out. Feinstein is NOT competent to make ANY rulings on whether or not anyone on anything violated the law. She is not qualified to make ANY rulings on legality/illegality.
No on her amendment. The courts make the decision, NOT Feinstein.
Is this why bush is always saying: nobody ever told me that!
Quite the opposite. Every person is presumed to know the law. Proclamations that “hey, I didn’t know” don’t cut it, and are not a valid defense.
Bank robber says – “Whaddya mean I can’t withdraw money from someone else’s account’ I didn’t know that!”
And DiFi’s “good-faith” exception doesn’t cut it either. Liabilty remains unaffected, but might possibly be considered as a mitigating factor in the imposition of penalties.
DiFi: “The telecoms depended upon the good faith of the head of national intelligence . . .”
The beginning of a modern day fairy tale.
Actually Hugh, the telcos did not just decide to spy on their customers and then force the information on the gov’t.The government came to them, with one or more specific requests.
There will be a paper trail (including–*giggle*–phone records) that document the contacts between the 3 letter agencies and the telcos. In my fantasy life, there are even contacts with the W/H. If so, wanna bet Darth said something really over the top.
There may have even been either threats or unvarnished promises of quid pro quo.
There will likely be all kinds of promises and guaratees in those letters. There may be some nifty John Yoo memos that were forwarded. That is the defense that the telcos are being blocked from using.
this is a crystal clear scene. they are going to protect the hill and the corporations that support the hill period the end. good lord why can’t you see they are all compromised. wtf, it is so obvious and sad. i thought the left would be able to accept the responsibility of cleaning their own house and that sycophant was always a term reserved for the fanatics on the right until now. wake up
GOOOOOOOOO TED!!!!!!!!!
Oooh, Teddy! This should be good!
Great Link! Thanx so much for sharing, I can assure you it will be put to good use. I shall send it out to all my contacts posthaste!
Does anybody know if candidate Biden came back to the Senate for this? Is HJo out campaigning with Hillary, or is he in the chambers?
So…they seem to want to give immunity to kibosh the Administration from successfully invocating States Secrets in the Telco lawsuits, because that would then extend successfully and unchallenged in anything they go after the Admin for, or something like that….rather than because they want to protect the Telcos….protecting the Telcos is the red herring. Better to fight the States Secrets claims by the Administration….?
I’m just trying to figure out what Whitehouse is up to. He is not a $$ guy, he coupled his reasoning about the whole thing with the President’s runaway Executive Orders…the ignoring thereof. The motive in my mind for his position is to stop Bushco from grabbing power by these unitary executive power claims, wherever and however he can.
Any of that make sense….or am I just experiencing wishful thinking.
No, he didn’t. He, Obama, and Hillary couldn’t be bothered.
sorry… that was meant to be sarcastic. Of course everyone is responsible, including bush! sorry to have sounded like a dunce!
Re: The FDL comments….I noticed that too….interwoven all over the place.
Democrats not voting were Biden, Clinon, Obama and Lautenberg. Independents not voting were Lieberman and Sanders.
Where is Bernie? We need him today.
Somebody on Kos said Biden was there.
In this house… we are warming to President Dodd.
Yes, I understand, but I think the data which was collected was used for political purposes also. Imagine the bits of info from phone and email messages that could be used against political adversaries, corporate decision makers, or members of the media who travel overseas often. Many “secrets” could have been revealed. Do you believe for a minute that Rove would not have used the data in every conceivable way to eliminate or punish the administration enemies. What did they catch in their net about the Libby case? Did Rove know every detail about Fitz’s investigation? Just think about “For Political Purposes”, and use your imagination. It is just a very useful by-product of the fight against foreign threats.
Karen
Let their campaigns suck bad from herin out. (is that a curse?)
I agree about Feinstein’s qualifications. I’ll go a step further. She has no business on the Judiciary committee at all, and I don’t think she belongs on any intel committee either, especially with her husband’s ties to the defense industry. I don’t, however, understand why you wouldn’t put the question of telecoms and whether they followed the law as they saw it to the FISA court which got short circuited to begin with? It seems to me they are the right court for this.
kennedy is against the bill but won’t support the filibuster?
Of course they
diddo!!!I do not see how the senators in the Intel Committee could possibly believe that removing the target of litigation from telcos and sticking it on the fed government would work at all. The telcos cannot claim “national security” or “presidential privilege” but the fed CAN get “protected” by that crap. As soon as the telcos got immunity and the fed became the defendant, I guarantee that the first thing out of the WH would be “National Security!”, and if that failed, “Presidential Privilege!”
What a crock.
I see Ted Kennedy is up.
Actually, Ol’ Short Ride is out campaigning with his BFF John McCain.
And that nitwit in the Oval Office tells us this:
AP – President Bush worked to reassure Americans on Monday about the economy but said “there’s definitely some storm clouds and concern” because of the nation’s credit crunch and mortgage problems.
In addition to everything else he’s upholding, Dodd is illustrating that politics is the art of the possible. Congress has become accustomed to waiving procedure and simply saying “At this point in time bill X has 61 votes, so there’s no point in fighting.” As Packerland’s brilliant flowchart illustrates, the fight isn’t over till the obese woman sings. All those motions and votes are individual opportunities, again and again, to CHANGE those 61 votes to less-than-60 or less-than-50 votes.
Lazy legislators with “better things to do” than wade through the procedures necessary to uphold the Constitution would simply accept defeat at the start of Packerland’s flowchart, and give up on the possibility that a filibuster could change the outcome.
I hope Dodd sticks to his word, and I hope every legislator is required to go on record again and again as supporting a bail-out of these corrupt telecom companies if they want this bill to pass.
Maybe facing Christmas in D.C. and a record of a half-dozen votes supporting the violation of the Constitution might force some of these legislators to reconsider their positions…
Teddy meets my expectations!
Senate website says Biden didn’t vote on the cloture motion. Sounds like he’s not there.
If you aren’t in Iowa or New Hampshire, the holy sole selectors of whom WE get to vote for, then you have no say in the Dodd for President thing. That decision is for Iowa and New Hampshire to make for the rest of us.
Here’s Glenn on what is happening today:
Did he say he wouldn’t? I thought he’d stick with Dodd.
Teddy….spying “before” 9/11….
He speaks in clear English. And says what I need to hear.
What exactly does “support the filibuster” mean? Not all who are speaking are with Dodd.
Kennedy is good! That voice. It’s a blast from the way back past.
yay – Kennedy brings up that spying began *before* 9-11 !!!
I have been baking and listening
The elephant in the room as each Senator speaks….the President broke the law.
So we are trying to fix things around a crime.
I think Whitehouse, Like Comey, Goldsmith and Ashcroft (who were probably some of the folks making the promises) feel bad that the Telcoms can’t use information about what actually happened, because of this bogus invocation of States Secrets privledge.
However, he’s got the wrong remedy. Immunity is not the remedy–attacking, or limiting, the privledge is.
As our beloved MAry has been pointing out ofr years (literally YEARS) the abouse of the classification power has led to many of the worst excesses of the Executive in thwarting the abiltiy of the other two branches to engage in oversight.
But that’s precisely the point. We’re all talking exclusively about immunity–which has no review of whether the info was used for political purposes.
Whitehouse has been pushing for minimization, which will review the governments use of US person data. If you’re worried about the info being used for political reasons, you want minimization oversight.
If you post that comment to the Dodd campaign, they may actually post it on the website.
Punishing the Telecoms isnt what important to me. Finding the truth and bringing the criminals to justice is.
Actually, Ol’ Short Ride is out campaigning with his BFF John McCain.
Oh, dear, I forgot he abandoned Hillary. No wonder she feels the need to stay on the campaign trail, being as she’s no longer getting Joe’s extremely valuable help. So this means McCain is gone too?
I understand what you are telling us.
Glenn again:
(Same link as my 88.)
rule of law rule of law rule of law… BLUE DRESS?
Teddy (for all his faults) is still a leading Democrat fighting for the rights of the people.
Judge Walker said that AT&T could not “seriously contend that a reasonable entity in its position could have believed that the alleged domestic dragnet was legal.”
That was in June 2006, and the lawsuit has continued a year and a half since then.
We are at a cross-roads in American History. One road leads to democracy, the other to fascism.
It is time for the Democrats in the Senate to STAND UP to authoritarianism, and to fight FOR the Constitution and the RULE OF LAW.
I am a Democratic Precinct Captain, and I have advised all of the Democratic Presidential Campaigns that I WILL NOT support any candidate who does NOT stand WITH Chris Dodd on this MOST IMPORTANT matter.
Telcom…. also listen in on all senator that left the country I BET .
teddy spells it out….so Nancy will let them continue to break the law
1,698 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Hardin Smith and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Thank you for the last two posts and your providing continuing “eyes and ears” for us troops in the field. While I think that the “compromise” proposed by Marcy yesterday and endorsed by you today would be more than sufficient in less dangerous times, the fact that we have the circumstances that we have makes this situation far too dangerous for compromise. In fact, I believe that Senator Dodd and the small cadre of progressive senators with him on this filibuster effort are involved in something that goes beyond the FISA legislation and the telecoms. I believe that what is goin’ down today and perhaps tomorrow is,in fact, a direct attack on Reid’s tenure as majority leader and no matter the outcome I believe that there will be pressure on One Hung Harry Reid to resign as leader effective January ‘08.
If the filibuster succeeds, then the best ol’ One Hung ken hope for is a face savin’ compromise like the aforementioned. If the filibuster fails, I believe that the rift in the caucus will be so deep and so many left in opposition to Reid that he will be forced out anyway. Furthermore, if the fillibuster succeeds, I hope that the progressives do NOT cave in to any compromise but, rather, use the restoration of oversight and redress thru the courts to bring the corporations to their knees and cut the umbilical cord from the corporations to the administration.
There is much more goin’ on here than jest the FISA telecom bill (though that’s plenty enough)…the Democratic leadership in Congress is gunna get shaken up no matter the outcome. This is a political battle to the death for the existing order in the Democratic Party and it’s gunna have repercussions out into the hustings in the presidential campaign.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION…WE’VE GOT TROOPS IN THE FIELD THAT ARE GUNNA HAFTA RELOAD!!
Damn, Teddy’s good! He’s a keeper!
I can tell you I see examples of this more and more in my daily life. It’s like “yeah, we know the rules but we break them anyway. What’re you gonna do about it?”
My example is one local school district office flagrantly denying services to a student who clearly needed them. These were the people who are on top of the system, not a rogue teacher or principal, banking on the fact that the people involved probably wouldn’t know the law. But they did and they clobbered them with it. “By gosh, we checked into it and this child will receive services!”
May I say it again? RULE OF LAW. It’s not just for progressives.
selise — Teddy and Russ are the TWO who have promised to support the filibuster. Two. If that’s not an indictment of the Democratic Party, I don’t know what is.
Dog bless hm, even said that Bushco “claim[s]to new executive powers [are] LAUGHABLE”
It made me so proud. I wish he had pointed his wand towards the white house and shouted “riddikkulus” (did I finally get that speeling right?), but clearlly he got the meassage that laughing at them may be part of the answer.
LAter on inthe speech was this wonderful bit of snark
Priceless!
And this
just snarkelicous
I can tell you I see examples of this more and more in my daily life. It’s like “yeah, we know the rules but we break them anyway. What’re you gonna do about it?”
My example is one local school district office flagrantly denying services to a student who clearly needed them. These were the people who are on top of the system, not a rogue teacher or principal, banking on the fact that the people involved probably wouldn’t know the law. But they did and they clobbered them with it. “By gosh, we checked into it and this child will receive services!”
May I say it again? RULE OF LAW. It’s not just for progressives.
I was afraid of that…
This is really, really hard to take.
We are clearly under neofascist control. Nevermind terrorists following us home….this is an extension of WWII following us home. We’re fighting part of WWII all over again…right now…right here. Dodd is the one that most clearly understands this. That is his outrage. The others seem….oblivious or complicit.
It is difficult to get through to Harry Reid’s DC office – busy, busy, busy. I spoke with aides in his Reno office and sent an e-mail to his DC office. It is easy to get through Las Vegas and Reno (contact info on Sen. Reid’s website)
No matter how many times we’ve called, call again. They count the calls. Also sent Dodd an e-mail of support and appreciation as well as called his office.
I know from doing volunteer work with the Democratic party, this counts. It really counts.
With all our senators getting calls and e-mails from us, it makes an impact.
Can any senator support the filibuster? Or just members of one committee?
So basically this whole piece of legislation sucks.
yup – we’ve been keeping him a long time. and Barney Frank.
We push the telecoms AND we seek truth and justice. One doesn’t have to be at the sacrifice of the other.
707 – Re”Dick”ulous!!
Teddy makes a good point. Telcoms get immunity for lawful not unlawful under FISA. Preznits argument about future cooperation is stupid.
Preznit says telcoms would be “bankrupted” by lawsuits.
Ted K:Right
casey fucked us here in Pennsylvania, so i’m fucking him right back.
I send out a weekly bulletin to 800 or so Philadelphia Democrats, all activisits, all progressives, and all involved in groups like DFA, Philly for Change, MoveOn, etc. Here’s what they’re receiving, and the Casey office is not too happy about it:
I am waiting for the bill to pass, and then i am tearing up my Democratic voter registration, and re-registering as an independent. All of my support will go to Chris Dodd, John Edwards, and Ron Paul.
Teddy sounds great!
Teddy: Let’s not rubberstamp illegal conduct.
Dodd Filibuster Headquarters
Tim Tagaris post on Kos
From the Dodd Campaign
Well, this would all be no doubt interesting but it isn’t a defense. It doesn’t amount to a court order. I could promise the telecoms the moon. It doesn’t mean I could deliver on that promise nor does it mean that the telecoms would have a reasonable basis to believe my promise.
Teddy: retroactive immmunity weakens FISA.
TED….you do your dead brothers proud……bless ya
In this house we want immunity. For the things we might in the future say and advocate. And we want to be able to tap our neighbor’s phones too. We want no legal hurdles.
i also want accountability for the telcos – otherwise we’ll get excellent minimization of the data kept by the nsa, while the telcos hold on to everything, do the data mining and give the results to the administration when they want it.
think of teh telcos as being a part of the nsa (as described in yesterday’s nyt article). without telco accountability, i don’t see how we have minimization.
Not exactly – they will claim state secrets and executive privilege, and if those don’t work they’ll go for the big cahuna – sovereign immunity. Just try proceeding under the FTCA – it’s like trying to push water uphill.
Man
Teddy’s a blowhard. But sometimes he’s a pretty powerful, useful blowhard.
Can’t load new comments over at Emptywheel. “Database error”.
Teddy: Voting for amnesty, would be voting for silence, illegality etc. Covers up the criminal preznit. Danger won’t stop there. Think about Blackwater, airlines etc. Then these companies will say by breaking the law they were doing their “patriotic duty.” We should struggle to make more entities subject to the law not less. This is bringing us down a dark dark path. If we take preznit at his word (veto) he’s willing to let Americans die to protect telcom communities. It’s clear what this is about. . .
Yay Ted!
Kennedy – “The President is willing to let Americans DIE if he doesn’t get immunity for the telecoms!!!”
Damn, that was a fine line!!!
Receiving the same DB error popup when I click the link on new comments.
Yes bigBob. Political Purposes. Not just calls to Aunt Mary across the water. Some citizens don’t care if their Christmas call gets recorded. Cheney doesn’t care about that data either. He just needs some kind of info he can use to manipulate congressional voting, etc.
Karen
Whitehouse said that, too!
Teddy is better than good: If the President keeps his word (without immunity, he will veto the FISA legislation,) he’s saying that he would let Americans die to protect the phone companies!
What a great line!
Bush Admin Ordered To Reveal Visitor Logs
good new at Huff Post
Sen. Kennedy does a really good job of explaining the big picture in a way that people can understand.
Site is still acting up I keep getting data base errors!!!
Our neighbors are brown. Some have beards. Obviously they are doing something subversive. We what their phones, etc., tapped.
Christy,
Thank you for this thread! And I also thank Sen. Dodd!
But why is Sen. Whitehouse supporting Haggis’s substitution concept?
Bob in HI
the teens in my house are concerned about their own text message & telephone gossip being overheard.
Dodd pointed out the absurdity of the logic of the preznit’s veto, reemphasizing Kennedy’s point. Seems like they are tag team debating in a good way.
Praedor, not exactly – they will claim state secrets and executive privilege, and if those don’t work they’ll go for the big cahuna – sovereign immunity. Just try proceeding under the FTCA – it’s like trying to push water uphill. Sorry, couldn’t reply at tyour comment #80. Having the same problem as behindthefall and katymine.
text of Kennedy remarks
text
How the hell does the chair keep changing. Who was the female? Why is it now Jim Webb?
Brief OT Matt Bai has a disingenuous piece up at the NYT with the following blurb:
“All of the Democrats, to one extent or another, have been blurring the distinction between the poor and the “middle class.”
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes…..-stand-up/
It’s tough when we have to fight not just Bush, but the Republicans, sellout Democrats, and idiots in the media like Bai. Does that guy have even one functioning brain cell? I doubt it.
kiddo, you tapping phones or tapping toes up there in OK?
Goddamnit Senator Bond! I am not scared and I do NOT need you or the Bushies or the NSA or the CIA to spy on Americans to protect me. I am happy with some threat of danger in return for my FULL liberties. Go. To. Hell. With your daddy state crap! NO SPYING ON AMERICANS PERIOD!
Kit Bond: (paraphrase *crickets*) We take it on Faith that the telcom companies did nothing wrong.
Betsy – Your teens are very well informed, and we all are proud of them and their contributions. They are very right to be concerned about the security of their communications, and how they might be punished for thinking clearly. We want Cassie to be fearless in her quest for the truth!
Karen
i keep getting database errors and needing to do a hard refresh. anyone else?
Betsy – Your teens are very well informed, and we all are proud of them and their contributions. They are very right to be concerned about the security of their communications, and how they might be punished by an administration for thinking clearly. We want Cassie to be fearless in her quest for the truth!
Karen
A must read. Bring in the Naomi’s for comment.
Senator Corny: A fine product. Partisanship *crickets* . We should keep our ears to the ground. *chirp, chirp, chirp*
You guys can’t seriously expect me to listen to Cornyn! I can’t take it; it’s too much! Bond, Sessions, Cornyn…what’s next!
A must read.
A must read. Bring in the Naomi’s for comment.
Kitt Bond’s insipid, egregious, deceptive insistance that Telcom Immunity does not protect governmentt employees ignores the reality that any and all times a government employee’s conduct would be called into question in a Court, the government would rush in just as it has been doing with Telcoms in the Ninth and other circuits and immediately would attempt cut off responsitility by invoking the “State Secrets” defense.
Everyone else, TexBetsy! It’s been terrible today. Must be Christy’s curse. Or maybe Emptywheel. Maybe both of them. *g*
You guys can’t seriously expect me to listen to Cornyn! I can’t take it; it’s too much! Bond, Sessions, Cornyn…what’s next!
on minimization–
The record of the US (or any) government on promising not to use data is so terrible as to not be taken seriously. They promised not to use automatic toll payment device data. But that’s been used. It’s pretty clear that your cell phone is going to be used for tracking your movements, in a pinch.
But the worst violation of all was by the Census. One of rockribbed foundation rules of the Census is that they will not release individual information. Today, they will suppress block level data that would allow you to identify particular individuals.
But during WWII, when the time came to inter the Japanese, the Census gave them up. You have to assume that if they have the data, they will use it.
You also have to assume that the data will be used for political purposes. It always is. Every time.
Shorter Kit Bond: Telco profits are more important than the Constitutional rights of Americans.
on minimization–
The record of the US (or any) government on promising not to use data is so terrible as to not be taken seriously. They promised not to use automatic toll payment device data. But that’s been used. It’s pretty clear that your cell phone is going to be used for tracking your movements, in a pinch.
But the worst violation of all was by the Census. One of rockribbed foundation rules of the Census is that they will not release individual information. Today, they will suppress block level data that would allow you to identify particular individuals.
But during WWII, when the time came to inter the Japanese, the Census gave them up. You have to assume that if they have the data, they will use it.
You also have to assume that the data will be used for political purposes. It always is. Every time.
on minimization–
The record of the US (or any) government on promising not to use data is so terrible as to not be taken seriously. They promised not to use automatic toll payment device data. But that’s been used. It’s pretty clear that your cell phone is going to be used for tracking your movements, in a pinch.
But the worst violation of all was by the Census. One of rockribbed foundation rules of the Census is that they will not release individual information. Today, they will suppress block level data that would allow you to identify particular individuals.
But during WWII, when the time came to inter the Japanese, the Census gave them up. You have to assume that if they have the data, they will use it.
You also have to assume that the data will be used for political purposes. It always is. Every time.
Yes, database errors. I am getting those. I am taking timeout during Sen. Corny to look for gingerbread recipes, and do other stuff. There are too many quotables, not enough time.
I can’t believe Cornyn actually said that the telecoms and police officers are analogous – and thought it *helped* his argument.
Yep, Senator, they are most certainly analogous. (well, with the exception that police officers know that they need warrants prior to searches).
Substitution is a crock.
If it happens, then the EFF’s lawsuit essentially gets thrown out. “AT&T cannot seriously contend that a reasonable entity in its position could have believed that the alleged domestic dragnet was legal.”… gone.
The only people who’d have standing under substitution are people who could prove that they themselves have been hurt by spying. So far there’d been one case where people could prove this happened: that case got thrown out on States Secrets.
Let’s say there are 10 people who can prove this. Let’s say they can prove they were wiretapped without a warrant for a whole year. The penalty is a $10,000 / day fine.
Then the only penalty for years of warrantless domestic spying will be a $36,500,000 fine. That’s it.
$36 million to spy on 300,000,000 Americans, or a dime per person in the US. That’s supposed to be a penalty?
Pete, do you have to continually shout? Could you speak in your “indoor” voice, please?
I figured it out. They’ve logged in to fdl at Sen. ted Stevens’ office…
Ohh Sen. Cornyn: (paraphrase) I hate paperwork. *chirp, chirp*. There were not bipartisanship attempts to work on this bill. *chirp, chirp*
I never knew that they were allowed to lie so blatantly as Cornyn just did on the floor of the Senate!
They’re stepping on my toobz!
of course republicans are allowed …..
Wyden: Documents show flimsy case on part of preznit. Unconvinced that Preznit’s warrantless wiretapping program legal. All members of congress should see docs before voting. There’s no basis for immunity there. Why are these docs classified. Preznit is only protecting self.
“i keep getting database errors and needing to do a hard refresh. anyone else?”
Yeah, me too. Database “connection” errors.
Bob in HI
BTW, Jane is upstairs. Not sure why the little notice thing didn’t pop up.
Not exactly in the stream of discussion at this point, but I wanted to close the loop on how Dodd and/or Feingold can “insist” on 30 hours of post-cloture debate. At some point, there might be UC request to either move to the bill, or to vote on the motion to proceed, at a time certain that is short of the 30 hours allotted. At that point, all the objector needs to do is object. It matters not, whether that Senator has consumed his alloted one hour of post-cloture debate time. The Senator is still allowed to object to the UC request.
But at the elapse of 30 hours, such objection ceases to have force. Rule XXII supersedes, and calls for conducting a vote on the underlying matter – in this case, a motion to proceed to consider S.2248.
yes. that has been my understanding as well.
the confusion (for me) was the uc you heard this morning.
Kennedy’s argument that Bush is willing to let Americans die unless telecoms get immunity is the best of the day.
Talk about terrorists holding Americans hostage! “Senator, why do you support a terrorist who is threatening to kill innocent Americans?”
If people don’t get that one, I don’t know what they will.
(Also having lots of database errors here, slow loading pages when they do work.)
Sounds like Hatch just called anyone who supports individual Constitutional rights stupid, irrational, and a traitor who supports the terrists.
“I find the threatening ad hominem argument of my good friend from Utah complete bullshit.”
Kitt Bond’s insipid, egregious, deceptive insistance that Telcom Immunity does not protect government employees ignores the reality that any and all times a government employee’s conduct would be called into question in a Court, the government would rush in just as it has been doing with Telcoms in the Ninth and other circuits and immediately would attempt cut off responsitility by invoking the “State Secrets” defense.
The first vote on cloture passed by the vote of 76-10 [voting against: Boxer (California), Brown (Ohio), Cantwell (Washington), Cardin (Maryland), Dodd (Connecticut), Feingold (Wisconsin), Harkin (Iowa), Kerry (Massachusetts), Menendez (New Jersey), Wyden (Oregon)]. Missing Senators included Clinton, Obama, Biden, Sanders, and Lautenberg.
A must read for everyone interested in the FISA bill (lol as opposed to everyone disinterested) is Glenn Greenwald always, and yesterday and today in particular:
Harry Reid — compare and contrast
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
Also we all know that everytime one of the Repubilicans invokes going to the FISA court for a warrant–they fail to state the obvious. The FISA court in its years of entire history has denied warrants in 5/20,000 cases.
I agree. Truth and Justice all the way.
One problem is politics gets in the way and Truth or Justice aren’t always easy to get even without politics.
At least in this instance they’ve stepped back from the original work and they’ve taken a bit more time to consider this complicated situation. When even DiFi mentions that the administration broke the law with their spying, then you know they’re at least well informed.
I’m very curious to see what kind of legislative solution they come up with. I doubt any of them wants to hurt the telcoms, but they would want some kind of finding of fact, so the role of the administration can be clearly outlined and so the purpose and extent of the spying can be discovered.
It seems likely they’ll have to let court cases go forward, but there will probably also be some kind of (perhaps limited) immunity for the telcoms. They were, after all responding to the government’s request as a FISA request is usually done. Where they may have stepped over the line (and a court will decide) is in opening their doors completely to any and all kinds of spying without a warrant.
The separate issue of telcom spying for their own purposes might come into these cases, but maybe not.
In the end we should know precisely what BushCo has done and over what time frame and we should know how long the telcoms assisted/enabled it without warrants.
If you want to assist a fascist dictator, then you should beware that the courts might not accept a defense of “We were only taking orders.”
And yet he would use the freedom of speech guaranteed to a US Senator to say such stupid irrational traitorous things. Amazing!