The issue is:
Should telcos be permitted to knowingly and willfully ignore the law and their customer agreements (and civil liberties), without their actions being exposed and without suffering the existing legal consequences?

That doesn’t conflate with emergency warrant issues.. not relevant. Also, it can’t be assumed a company acted in good faith when another, given the same facts, refused.

No company should (by virtue of power, size, co-operation) be free to ignore the law in secret without consequences – it’s hardly sadistic to insist otherwise. [If a company also took advantage and stole data (business or personal)from individuals, that is egregious. But, again, not the primary question.]

That the administration requested this action did not render it legal and the companies knew that. Rather than concern for the companies, perhaps the next logical issue is obtaining better communications companies – if some of the existing ones cannot or will not comply with the law and their customer obligations.

Here is Reid’s problem: Nelson, Bayh, Nelson, Johnson, Pryor, Carper, Lincoln, Landrieu, Baucus, Lieberman, Feinstein, Rockefeller, Whitehouse(?), Tester(?), Webb(?), Reid(?), (?).

That is a problem in many cases. But, I think the major problem in this instance is that it’s a complicated issue. I believe the telecoms did in fact respond in good faith to the government requests and that, even under FISA as we know it, they would’ve responded the same way. Where it gets sticky is in the question of whether telecoms used spying for their own corp purposes too. And, since nobody (who isn’t sadistic) should want to put the telecoms out of business, there has to be a middle-ground where we get gov. out of domestic spying without a warrant AND we still can require corps to go along with a FISA request before the warrant arrives AND we find a way to separate national interest from corp misconduct.

It’s a multi-part nasty situaiton.

Looking through his wiki article, I note that he is anti-abortion,
that he is pro death penalty
that he supports the view that marraige is between one man and a woman, that he voted for the AUMF against Iraq paving the way for war
that he was tied into the Jack Abramoff scandals,
and that he voted against Alito but opposed the filibuster (a la Joe Lieberman).

This guy is and has been bad news for the Democrats. He is and has been not just a facilitator but the chief legitimizer of the worst excesses of the worst President in our history.

He has got to go. I rest my case.

Strong, if brief, case. Senator Reid?….Senator Reid?
***crickets***

The senator seems to be unavailable for comment.

I’d say Reid is a DLC Dem and much like the Clintons. He isn’t quite a Progressive Dem.

What happened??

… Greenwald’s report at Wigwam’s link reiterates your [Christy’s] concerns. Reid has done everything he can to facilitate Dubya’s White House. Reid is bringing up the base bill they want (the worser one). He is defying 14 Democratic leaders. Reid is defying Dodd’s hold (he honors Tom Coburns holds) AND he is weakening Dodd’s filibuster by weekend scheduling buggery.

It seems to me there’s a process problem in the Senate. Since Democrats are rarely completely unified there are competing bills and (it seems to me) the process doesn’t seem well designed to handle that.

They bring up a bill and vote on it. Sometimes they amend it. How do they deal with competing bills?

They need a knock-out process whereby competing bills can be voted on and the best vote-getter moves forward. Perhaps they should have a preliminary vote on multiple bills in a Dem-only caucus.

Anybody have any knowledge of how this has been handled in the past?

What is it with the goddamn Democratic leadership(???) in Congress? Are the competing with the Republicans to see how far down the river they can sell us? Jesus H F*****g Christ!!

From LHP @16 on When All EOs Are Pixie Dust, It Means Dick Can Declassify Anything He Wants

EW

It does matter that they are just making shit up. It’s like the Emperoro’s New Clothes. If we all tie ourselves in knots about “what does this mean” “what new powers does he have now”–we are tacity agreeing that they can do this.

If we just say: NOOOPE, you are full if fertilzer and everybody knows it. It will stop. Folks have to stop treated the outrageous, the ridiculous, as sane.

We must change the paradigm. We must not give this foolishness one iota of respect or deference.

emptywheel December 13th, 2007 at 1:31 pm 23
In response to looseheadprop @ 16
LHP

Barring some legal recourse (and I’m waiting for your explanation of how we discredit this legally) then the first step to the Emperor’s New Clothes is to point out, such that everyone case see it, that the Emperor is naked.

That’s part of what I’m trying to do. A lot of very smart people are saying, “well, golly, that EO thing would be really scary if Bush were doing it indiscriminately.”

Ergo, I’m trying to show that he is.

If LHP or anyone else can tell me how in the world we change that paradigm, in this climate where there is no rule of law left, I’m all ears.

I just heard Ron Wyden utter the words “There are many good provisions in this bill.”

No, absolutely No. There are not many good provisions in that bill. There are many egregious provisions in that bill S. 2248 that are completely mimetic of the PAA.

As I listen to Ron Wyden talk right now, I hear what I have heard time and time again. Democrats getting ready to vote with Republicans and then claiming they don’t have the votes.

They don’t have the votes because the enemy is them. They are voting with what Cheney is dictating lock, stock and barrel.

Why?

A good part of it is that money buys the House and Senate votes, and they are always for sale with very few outstanding exceptions.

Money buys this as well, and I’m hearing the result of this right now on the Senate floor.

Law Firms that Suited Up for Verizon

The only thing I see appropriate right now on the Senate floor is that the Romantic music that C-Span2 is playing sounds like Berlioz or Mahler and is suitable for a funeral or memorial service. It’s your 4th amendment rights that they are burying alive.