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Gutting the Constitution
The Senate is expected Friday to begin consideration of bills to restore FISA, after a panicked Congress gutted FISA's Constitutional protections last August. Final votes may not occur until Monday or Wednesday, but procedural votes today could influence whether the beating the Fourth Amendment took will be reversed and whether the telecoms get the retroactive immunity they and the Administration want for spying illegally on Americans.
We've been urging Congress on two basic objectives: (1) reinstating adequate review by the FISA Court of surveillance requests and actions, and (2) denying retroactive immunity for the telecoms. Immunity would end the private lawsuits that are seeking to hold the telecoms accountable for illegally spying on Americans.
Recall that the August legislation that gutted FISA and the Fourth Amendment was stampeded through Congress under the pretext that the FISA Court had unexpectedly issued still secret opinions requiring NSA to obtain FISA Court warrants before intercepting strictly foreign-to-foreign communications that pass through US facilities. Until then, everyone thought such strictly foreign-to-foreign communications were outside FISA's requirements.
NSA and the Justice Department complained that the paper work for getting Court warrants was too burdensome for such communications, and the result, NSA claimed, was a loss of such intelligence for some unknown period. Everyone panicked and agreed we should fix FISA to exempt such communications. The "fix" with the Orwellian title of "Protect America Act" (PAA), was a travesty, and the Democrats vowed to repair the damage before the new statute expires in February, 2008.
The PAA went beyond the foreign-to-foreign issue and instead gutted FISA. It stripped the FISA Court of its ability to oversee some foreign-domestic communications, and it transferred oversight authority in some cases to the Attorney General and/or Intelligence Director. The fix may also have weakened the protections for minimizing intelligence collection and dissemination following broad sweeps or data mining, even though Congress had twice prohibited such data mining. We still don't know what NSA does, and most in Congress don't know either. The Hill reviews this sordid history.
You'll recall there are three bill versions floating around, none of them perfect but some clearly preferable. There are two Senate versions: (1) one by Sen. Rockefeller's Senate Intelligence Community (SIC) that does a poor job on FISA Court oversight and grants immunity; (2) one by Sen. Leahy's Senate Judiciary Committee (SJC), which does a better job on FISA Court oversight and does NOT grant immunity; and (3) one passed by the House, which restores much of the FISA Court oversight and doesn't grant immunity.
The expectation for Friday is that Senator Reid will inexplicably ignore the request of 14 Senators who asked Reid to start with the SJC version; instead he'll likely bring up the weaker SIC version with immunity. The stronger SJC version without immunity is available as a substitute. If this is correct, any efforts to change the base bill -- the weak SIC version -- must gather enough votes to do so. As I understand it, this means that any effort to strip telecom immunity out of the SIC version and/or substitute the preferable SJC version (or the better overview parts of it) must overcome whatever procedural hurdles may exist -- think 60 vote requirements under the "Revised Republican Constitution." So fixing this mess looks like an uphill battle.
Weeks ago, Senator Dodd notified the leadership of his intent to place a "hold" on and filibuster any bill that provided telecom immunity, so that may kick in tomorrow if Reid brings the SIC version forward. Dodd deserves our support. In addition, all the Democratic Presidential candidates have said they'll support a filibuster on the telecom issue, so it will be important to hold them to their promises if/when we get to that.
Senator Reid does not have to honor Dodd's hold, although Senate tradition strongly suggests he should. Glenn Greenwald has more on why this matters. (h/t selise) What happens next remains to be seen, but it looks like we need to let Senator Reid and the Senate leadership know we support Dodd and the 14 Senators, and that whatever the procedural steps, we support a bill that restores strong FISA Court oversight (no "blanket" warrants) and rejects telecom immunity.
Our first task this a.m. is to let Harry Reid know he should honor Dodd's hold and honor the request by the 14 Senators: bring the SJC version of the bill without immunity to the floor as the "base" version, to force the bad guys to amend that, rather than forcing our guys to amend the lousy SIC version. Make sense?
One more thing: Bush will most likely veto any bill that restores FISA Court oversight or that fails to provide telecom immunity. If he's forced to veto the bill, that means the August PAA expires in February. Some of us think that's just fine, but we're not there yet.
The Capitol switchboard number is 1-800-828-0498; Harry Reid's numbers are here.
p.s. We have a secret guest coming by later to keep you updated.
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mornin’ scarecrow!
We want our civil liberties back. Democracy, too, while you’re at it.
Mornin’ Scarecrow
Thanks for a very clear summary of the situation. Is there any word on whether Senators Biden and Clinton are also on their way back to Washington to honor their pledges?
Edwards just said on JoeScar that he *is* in fact considering republicans for Cabinet positions.
Oft re: picture at top: My everyday coffee cup looks just like that, with blacked-out, redacted lines of the Constitution. Put hot coffee in it - lines disappear - Constitution restored.
g’morning dogs
thanx for the early post scarecrow!
yes
it’s really getting painfully obvious, the current set of democrats are not democrats
you know how I used to say “repbulicans should reclaim their party because their elected officials are NOT republicans even though they call themselves that”
well, now the same is true for most of our elected democrats
they are not democrats, the corporate world has them paid and bought just like the republicans
Good morning, Scarecrow, and thanks as always.
Everybody, please don’t forget to Digg this.
The magic date for expiration is apparently February 1. I don’t think Bush will veto a bill just because it doesn’t contain telcom immunity, because that will result in expiration and return to FISA, which would upset dear leader no end.
my bold The magic date for expiration is apparently February 1. I don’t think Bush will veto a bill just because it doesn’t contain telcom immunity, because that will result in expiration and return to FISA, which would upset dear leader no end.
my bold part of your quote es teh BINGO
Morning Scarecrow,
My question to the Reid staffer.”If you honor a hold from a nutcake like Tom Coburn, why not honor a hold from Sen. Dodd? They had no answer.
YES.
Is water wet?
I called Reid’s office twice. I always get on the phone and forget things, like that he honored Coburn’s hold but is now ignoring Dodd’s, etc. ARGH!
I am so livid right now.
You’d think after getting repeatedly screwed by democrats that I wouldn’t be so surprised, but I swear I’m like an abuse victim…always thinking that they’ve changed after the last beating and it’s all flowers and apologies and promises to do better next time.
damn it.
Senator Reid does not have to honor Dodd’s hold, although Senate tradition strongly suggests he should.
I Reid not only is pushing the wrong bill, but also ignoring tradition (and the will of the party) to do so, shouldn’t one’s spidey-sense kick in to wonder just why he’s so hell-bent on bad law?
Who is controlling Harry Reid?
You don’t have democrats but corpocrats right wing and center wing.
Democrats were FOR labor and AGAINST capital and business. That when the way of the Dodo bird.
WAKE UP. democrats are not YOUR friend unless you are well off.
last night senator reid came to the senate floor twice to explain (in part) how he planned to handle the fisa vote - that he intended to file for cloture today (i think it will be towards the end of the day to limit debate).
a cloture vote takes place 2 days after filing for cloture… and since reid has said that the senate will be in session on saturday on another matter, so that means the fisa cloture vote will be monday - i think one hour after the start of the day’s session.
as glenn explains this morning - this is all designed to facilitate passage of the administration’s preferred version of the bill while blocking the version supposedly supported by the dems.
this is exactly what we saw this summer - political theater where the house leadership used house rules to get the administration’s fisa bill passed while insuring that the “democratic” version was blocked… all the while pretending to “fight” the administration.
It would be helpful if everyone showed up for some key procedural votes.
EPUed
Perris,
The value of real estate, art, and money are completely illusory.
Enter at your own risk.
And the values of these and other markets are controlled and manipulated by others.
Take art. A totally greed driven market where the value of art is easily manipulated by a speculator bidding up the value of some artist he may own by making an an outrageous bid for a piece and all the others one shoot up in value as their value is PEGGED to the current market. Then dump some of the other pieces at enormous profit and on to the next pump and dump.
Real estate was/is a pump and dump that many players are making out, banks, real estate brokers, lawyers, mortgage lenders, builders, developers, even the tax collectors, schools which depend on assessed value taxes and the list goes on and on.
It’s all ponzi. Its other name is capitalism.
ya, I saw and responded downstairs, have a look, I’ll go back and revue what you think of my response
The tone of your post seems considerably more optimistic than Glenn’s.
Are we or are we not doomed?
Just askin’
bilbo, you’re a wo/man after my own heart.
digg this and spotlight it too
in addition to calling reid’s office (which i’m going to do momentarily) - may i suggest that we also call the presidential candidates (biden, clinton, obama) and our own senators to to ask that they actively support the filibuster.
for the presidential candidates, that means showing up today and leading the fight with dodd.
Too bad there aren’t billboards showing the Constitution all blacked out. Or on buildings in cities.
People need to be reminded of this everyday. Too few of us are going bonkers about the Constitution being shredded and others are just going about their business, thinking we’re nuts.
I don’t know about you, but some people think I’m nuts for being so concerned about all this.
and caw-CAW Scarecrow!
Mormons?
Mormons in the spy business?
hey guys, wapo NAILS IT
BINGO
just one more thing before i start on my calls…. imo, it’s very important to let our senators (especially reid and the presidential candidates) know that we see through the kabuki.
if reid files for cloture on the SIC bill (and not the SJC version), if the presidential candidates don’t show up to fight it - then they are saying one thing but their actions tell the opposite story.
there’s a reason they do this - it’s because we let them get away with their lies. the more we call them out on it, the more it’s impossible for them to appear to “fight” the administration while actually aiding the administration - the more likely it will become that they will realize that only genuine action will suffice. kabuki will not fool us.
that is our goal.
Mormons in the spy business?
Kinda hard to imagine Harry workin’ up the energy to do something spy-worthy. He’s the Democratic Fred Thompson, in a position which commands that some attention be paid to him, if one can stay awake long enough to do so.
Selise,
You are asking zebras to behave like donkeys or change their stripes. It’s not gonna happen.
Dems are liars almost as much as reps and there is cognitive dissonance in the beltway. You can’t guilt them into being something other than what they are.
It’s all kabuki.
We are slip sliding into fascism and the lefties are now pissing into the wind.
I get the same everyday. Their eyes glaze over and quickly try to change the subject. No we are not nuts! We have what they are sorely lacking…a clue. Even this thick skull o mine gets it when Scarecrow et al spell it out. Caw, Caw. And as my buddy SanderO says, Struggle!
off to work, will catch up in a few
c L8tr firedogs
The correct answer is yes.
I completely share Glenn’s concerns, though the part about how we were misled is a matter of interpretation. I understood the explanation, while others thought they heard something different. The procedural stuff is beyond complicated, and the misunderstanding was . . . understandable. On Glenn’s basic point, — that Reid’s proposed procedure is extremely harmful to fixing FISA — we agree. We’ve never been given a satisfactory answer as to why he’s doing this, so that leaves people free to speculate on motives.
And good morning, every one. Sorry for the long post, but this kept changing into the wee hours.
Good morning everyone :)
Sorry to go OT already (I hear the groans>:), but EPU’d from an earlier thread - I really am curious about this..
‘I know this is very late in the thread, but re; Gouli’s lobbying connection to the Matrix program, Why was Jeb Bush in the meeting?
‘The White House looks like another one of those doors that Giuliani opened. In January of 2003, just a month after Seisint hired Giuliani, Asher gave a presentation to Vice President Dick Cheney, FBI director Robert Mueller, Homeland Security director Tom Ridge, and Gov. Jeb Bush (R-FL) in the Roosevelt Room at the White House on MATRIX, according to documents obtained by the ACLU back in 2004.’
You asked who controls him. Mormons can be pretty controlling of their own, you know.
And what if some are in the data mining business?
It was just a joke!
Sometimes it feels like my brain is reaching a “critical mass” as I try to fathom all of this and feed yet more data in, on top of all the crimes and all the lies and all the problems.
But, yes, I know we’re not nuts. Just too few trying to save too many!
of course it’s kabuki - but they do it because they can get away with it. our job is to make sure they don’t get away with it.
don’t forget that president nixon gave us the epa and osha - he didn’t do that because he wanted to, he did it because kabuki and lies were not enough to satisfy the people he needed to support (or at least not fight) him.
that is our goal!
to make sure that 1) we see through the kabuki and 2) that we make sure our senators know that we are not fooled - that we expect real action not lies.
‘morning all… coffee is almost ready…
so, are they going to argue about this until 1 minute before their scheduled Christmas break and then rush something through at the very last second? (even IF it doesn’t expire until Feb. 1?)
Harry Reid contact info:
I understand the final vote may not occur until Wednesday; however key procedural votes could occur over the weekend or Monday.
Thanks to twolf for the phone/fax numbers and to selise for clarifications and a h/t for the link to Glenn, which is now in the post.
A bit Off Topic.
Are they going to really go on recess? Or are they smart enough not to allow for recess appointments?
I’m going to guess something will happen and the vote will occur next Friday evening.
oh.
didn’t even realize Harry was a Mormon.
OfT: Just got this e-mail from fini - he’s not doing so well:
I apologize for the mass email, but the link above is to a blog post explaining the current health crisis I am experiencing as I recover in Community North Hospital in Indianapolis. I was admitted Tuesday evening and have been diagnosed with Inferior Vena Cava Thrombosis, a rather serious condition in which a primary vein which carries blood from my lower body to my heart has become blocked with a deep vein thrombosis (DVT), or blood clot. More details of my situation can be found at the link above.
http://johpadgett.com/monticello/?p=430
I’m hoping this is related to the secret guest–but is someone talking to Dodd’s staffers to ask them what they think is the best course of action? So they can guide us a little in our calling?
The SIC / SJC thing I think I understand, after about six rereads of the DKos diary. Does Dodd’s office agree with this analysis? If not, why not? If so, is there a pithy way to summarize it in a call to Reid’s office? It’s weak to say “I see through you!” and then not be able to cogently explain what exactly you’re seeing through…which is the situation I find myself in.
thank for letting us know jayt
if i understand correctly (and i’m trying to figure this on the fly - on the job training so to speak *g*), if reid files for cloture today, the cloture vote will be monday (there is a two day delay), then the final vote must occur w/in 30 hours - which makes the final vote on wednesday. but most important vote - the cloture vote would be monday.
Harry Reid:
This is your chance to act like a patriot. Don’t fuck it up.
Again
That’s also my understanding. Cloture vote likely Monday; final vote likely Wednesday. Key vote is Monday. Dirty deeds done today, over Dodd’s objections and against the wishes of the 14 Senators.
Don’t forget. Harry’s religion tells him Jesus is coming back again… in Missouri, I think.
So he may have other priorities.
Which worries me. Honestly!
Thanks Scarecrow and Selise! To the phones everyone. Good Morning & Good Luck.
“Republicans blocked….” is such a commonplace phrase these days, one has to wonder why Reid even goes thru the kabuki of scheduling a vote.
Stymie them, Harry! You did it with the Thanksgiving pro forma sessions. Use some of that outside-the-box thinking on the rest of these things.
All I want for Christmas is my Democracy back. No more lumps of coal in the stocking.
George Carlin was an absolute hoot on Imus this morning. Solid takes everything from politics to steroids. And his take on the difference between entertainers and artists was sublime to this writer and citizen activist. I’m sick of my politicians acting like entertainers…I want the artist.
Talking to Dodd? Yes. From the post:
TheraP, I’ve never gotten the impression that Reid is a fundie, Mormon or otherwise. So THAT’S not what worries me about him.
Now this is a good example of a starting point for thinking like an artist instead of just throwing up your hands and whining, well we did what we coooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuullllddddd.
Well neither have I. But these days … you never know.
I’ll trust your take here.
Let’s put the fear of god into him in terms of the base!
It takes a lot of nerve to end a post about secret spying by dropping a little “I’ve got some classified information and you don’t” nugget like that, Scarecrow.
*g*
yep! To the phones! To the faxes! To their offices!
I just spoke to someone in Dodd’s office who really didn’t seem to have strong feelings one way or the other on the substitution maneuvering. I don’t think this person was really in-the-know (i.e. not his Judiciary staffer). That’s why I ask.
If Reid moves as Scarecrow predicts, it must be because he believes that telco immunity is important. This is the Beltway view, I think. The argument is that they acted in good faith, and in an effort to defeat terrorism and protect the American people from serious danger.
It is fairly easy to see how this could be persuasive to a person who is frightened, and who believes that the Bush administration is really interested in protecting them. The counter-arguments are nuanced. The direct argument for our side is comparatively abstract, based on the interpretation of the Constitution that said we have a reasonable expectation of privacy when we use a telephone.
Mediocre minds might balance things to favor telco immunity, and Reid is a mediocre mind.
The phone-answering staffer in Reid’s Washington office that I just spoke to claims that Senator Reid has not announced what he plans to do on the FISA bill. I informed her that many of us very concerned and that he needs to honor Senator Dodd’s hold and the letter from the 14 Senators. I also told her that there will be an organized attempt to defeat Senator Reid in the 2010 primary if he caves in on this issue.
I hope that his office gets many more calls today with similar sentiments.
there is no such valid argument, if they acted in good faith they have nothing to fear
if they stole from us informationn that has nothing to do with natiionaly security we need to be able to recover damages for our stolen property
this is simple stuff too, it can’t be presented as “violated my privacy”, it MUST be presented as “stole my stuff and I want it back”
the latter works, the former is just not effective
The direct argument for our side is comparatively abstract, based on the interpretation of the Constitution that said we have a reasonable expectation of privacy when we use a telephone.
I disagree a little. To me, the most important counterargument is: CEO’s will obey the law precisely to the extent they believe they will be punished for doing otherwise. We are creating (with this, and the MCA, and Blackwater, etc) a culture in which CEO’s are going to conclude that they will be excused for illegal activities on behalf of the president. And as any president has a certain amount of power to reward friendlies, CEO’s will conclude that “shareholder interest” requires them to assist the president in any venture he asks.
Such a culture turns private companies into the President’s agents. As bad as corporate America may be, it is not yet a nation of Black
shirtswaters. But this kind of legislation takes us a lot of the way there.It’s hard to imagine Harry Milktoast exhibiting any strong leadership at any time.
If they say “the telcos acted in good faith,” we say we’re acting in good faith too! And what about us? Are We the People not important?
Well stated. This IS the arguement to be made. (Which of course takes us back to the discourse at EW’s about Nuremberg..hmmm…)
no, i expect he will do what he sees is in his best interest - which includes what his caucus wants him to do… and what his constituents want.
p.s. if the telcos were acting in good faith they will be exonerated in the courts - where this matter should be tried.
Does anyone have a list of the bills that GOPers have put “holds” on that Reid is honoring? I’d love to cite a couple when I call up Reid’s office, and ask why he’s even considering not honoring Dodd’s hold when he honors GOP holds…
Coburn (R) had a hold on the pool drain safety legislation as of a couple weeks ago. The bill hasnt passed so I assume that hold is still on.
Linky
AT EW’s when selise posted about this, I mentioned “yeah” on the phone calls but stated we need to do something which gives a “citizens active in democracy shot across the bow” in addition to phone calls, email and faxing. In the “Christy tradition”, we do need to call and fax like crazy. Try to get one friend to also call and ask them to pass on the “make a call” to one friend as well.
Does Christy have an idea for a figurative shot across the bow? Or anyone?
I maintain, it’s not abstract and it’s not as much a privacy issue as a property issue
we need privacy protection to protect our assets, our intelectual privacy, our manuscripts, our sources, our novels, our cures
we need protection to help us guard what we are most proud, this is the MAIN reason for privacy protection
it’s not abstract
How did you quote? By hand?
The quote you picked out was massaccio’s at 59 but I’ve not acclimated myself to the new comment system yet.
You both have come up with gold nuggets in your statements
“I disagree a little. To me, the most important counterargument is: CEO’s will obey the law precisely to the extent they believe they will be punished for doing otherwise. We are creating (with this, and the MCA, and Blackwater, etc) a culture in which CEO’s are going to conclude that they will be excused for illegal activities on behalf of the president. And as any president has a certain amount of power to reward friendlies, CEO’s will conclude that “shareholder interest” requires them to assist the president in any venture he asks.
Such a culture turns private companies into the President’s agents. As bad as corporate America may be, it is not yet a nation of Blackshirtswaters. But this kind of legislation takes us a lot of the way there.” -ProfessorFoland@ 62
“we need privacy protection to protect our assets, our intelectual privacy, our manuscripts, our sources, our novels, our cures
we need protection to help us guard what we are most proud, this is the MAIN reason for privacy protection…” -perris @70
perris and ProfessorFoland, you have hit on the two main points. I would challenge any of the candidates to out explain both your views. Even an attempt would show contempt for the Constitution.
I think a better argument than privacy concerns is simply this: The administration has always had a responsibilty to either uphold the law or push for a change in the law. To have them defy the law and then push for a change only after they have been in violation for years puts the entire notion of lawfullness at risk. If they can simply make it up as they go, then what can they NOT do?
And that would be point three…
“The administration has always had a responsibilty to either uphold the law or push for a change in the law. To have them defy the law and then push for a change only after they have been in violation for years puts the entire notion of lawfullness at risk. If they can simply make it up as they go, then what can they NOT do?” - phd9
Thank you ProfessorFoland, perris and phd9!
For me it’s that We the People have a contract with our public servants. It’s called the Constitution. WE have a right to have that contract respected. We have a right to privacy via that Constitutional contract with them. And they can’t take it away. And they can’t give it away… to the telcoms or anybody - without our consent… which they did…and We, the holders of the contract, the people to whom the Constitution matters, expect redress… not more abuse. To give the telcoms immunity is to pile abuse upon abuse.
We want redress.
I cut and pasted the portion I wanted to comment with, I agreed with the rest of your post
you highlight and cut, then you hit the quote Icon and paste inbetween this; >< </p>
It appears that we need to start pressuring the House NOW to force them NOT to capitulate to the Senate and NOT agree on a conference bill that has immunity in it. At the same time we MUST start now to get a primary challenger for Reid and try to get other senators to dethrone the bastard as Majority Leader. Reid is unfit to be a senator and unfit as a true American (he hates the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the fact that he serves at the pleasure of the People, NOT himself).
If Reid cuts his political throat as expected, then we must be willing to cut it for him. We must also be ahead of the game and ensure that the House Capitulation Queen (that would be Reid’s clone Pelosi) does NOT capitulate this time. The senate passing an unacceptable and unconstitutional bill is not the end so long as the House bill that is far better still exists in its current form. The senate must go the way of the House on this, not the other way around.
It’s different now. When you reply, it doesn’t bring the comment text. So after you hit “Reply,” copy the text you want to quote into the comment box. Highlight it. Then hit the ” icon above.
Good mornin’, all-
Whew, you folks are way too smart for me this morning. I’m going back to Tbogg’s place to read about Led Zeppelin and boobies.
;-)
I like boobies
please post if there is new information concerning same
As I read it in the two bills, SB2440 is the one from the SJC without the immunity (and the one we should tell Reid to use) and SB2441 is the one we should say not to use because it has telecom immunity.
Is that correct? Before I send off emails to my network I want to make sure I have it right.
Scarecrow,
Sorry to go OT here, but this is important to me and I can’t figure out how to navigate the new and improved site.
Can anyone point me to the prior scalpings of Dinesh D’Souza? Or tell me how to do it myself?
My pastor of a congregation of 13,000 in Atlanta is pimping D’Souza’s book.
I need to offer him a different perspective.
Thanks, in advance.
Ask Dodd’s folks what is necessary to unseat Reid as Majority Leader. THAT is more important (and a great message to the capitulators and collaborators in the Dem leadership…hear me PELOSI?!) than simply being angry at Reid for his pefidy (again). There MUST be consequences and the fastest/earliest sign of consequences to come is to unseat Reid (or at the very least get that ugly fight going in the Senate as a show of VERY intense displeasure at Reid’s many many failings).
I remember this one by watertiger
Since no other suggestions have been made, I would propose buying advertising space in WaPo to run an ad with the picture of the redacted Constitution that appears in this post. If someone will organize, I’m in with a contribution.
Blue Texan has a new thread ready.
Why do you hate Hillibama?
senator reid is now giving his morning statement on the schedule and explaining his plan for the fisa cloture vote. will post more in a bit.
I just got lost.
did he say SJC version first?
Cranky aide in Reids’ office cut me short and said he had to take more calls. Searchlight, Nevada indeed. Take that searchlight and try to find a clue Harry, or stick…oh nevermind.
Yes. They all need to be thrown out. Start over, with a new group, if they don’t listen to the people who elected them, throw them out.
Real simple, unless they do not have an opponent. then vote for mickey mouse and drive down their vote count. Your congressman or senator is part of the problem unless he or she consistantly vote the will of the people and not the highest bidder.
I got precisely the same treatment this morning. I’ve called that office dozens of times before and never gotten anything like it. Someone instructed them to do that.
Selise- did reid say we are working off the SJC version?
Is the SSCI version off the table?
Just called back more forceful this time. They work for us damn it.
Do not let his young snotface aides give you the short shrift.
Haven’t been this mad in a while. More coffee and more calls. Hold their feet to that fire pups.
reid implied it was the ssci bill - but did not state so explicitly. i just spoke to an aide in reid’s office who has been very helpful in the past - he said he would get confirmation for me and call right back… fingers crossed that he does.
sorry for the delay.. i’m trying to do 6 things at once and listen carefully to c-span2 so i don’t miss any details that might come up.
Per Glenzilla , Reid is going with the SSCI version as the base bill, which will mean that it’ll require 60 votes to amend out the amnesty and/or attach real oversight:
I hope Glenn is wrong!
From his statements about “trampling rules” it seemed he was advancing SSCI, meaning filibuster needed to stop amnesty. but my colleague here heard judiciary to start….
I just got off the phone with Reid’s office, and they are noncommittal about which bill will be advanced.
i agree it sounded to me like the ssci bill - but i’m not going to state that categorically w/o confirmation.
cboldt heard SSCI:
http://cboldt.blogspot.com/200…..html#links
“He indicates that a cloture vote on the FISA bill will occur Monday, at about noon. He indicates that he will bring the Intelligence version of the bill to the floor, with any amendments (e.g., those made by Judiciary) starting from there.”
If this goes through I join the many others now planning to quit the Democratic party. We can complain all we want about Republicans, or the Green party earlier, but at this point the Democrats have become more than just weak “yes men” to the destruction of our constitution, the Democratic party has become a key force in it. Jane Harmon, Harry Reid, Stanley Hoyer, Nancy Pelosi they have now (as much as Bush and the neocons) led this once great nation into becoming war thugs, torturers, theocrats, common thieves, and spies on their own people.
Not immunity. AMNESTY! AMNESTY! AMNESTY!
I like that idea for a shot over the bow…
Any feed back from here in the threads?
just confirmed by a aide in reid’s office (who’s been very helpful in the past):
I’m told that this afternoon Reid intends to bring a motion to proceed under regular order for the Intelligence committee’s FISA bill. The Judicary bill is pending legislation. Since Senator Dodd has a hold on the intelligence committee version of the bill, there will be a motion to invoke cloture. The cloture vote is expected to be held one hour after the Senate begins on Monday (since Saturday will be a work day for the Senate, and there is a 2 day wait after filing for cloture). 60 votes will be required for the cloture vote on the Intelligence bill Monday. If it passes, then amendments will be considered (Senator Specter’s bill, the Judiciary Bill, and/or others). Controversial amendments will require 60 votes to pass. 30 hours later, on Wednesday, the final vote will be taken.
…..
important note: nothing is for sure until it actually happens. let’s get those calls in!
Thanks, selise. I suppose it is somewhat encouraging that 60 votes will be required to move forward with the Intelligence Committee version. Am I right to think that if it falls short there, that version is finished and doesn’t move forward to Wednesday?
If you haven’t already, could you please cross-post this to Glenn’s thread?
Thanks for your hard work.
Hi Selise. Thanks for the excellent work.
cross-posting to glenn’s thread is a good idea.. would you be willing to do it (you can always include a link to my comment here for reference? i’m a bit swamped. thanks!
p.s. i’m still trying to carefully listen to c-span2 for any updates/info or when reid introduces his motion to proceed. will post additional info here, unless there is a new on topic thread here at fdl or at emptywheel.
Thanks Selise.
Done.
woo hoo!! christy’s back!!
just in time too!
The most frightening part of all of this, and I don’t want to be repetitive but Mr. Greenwald has sure hammered it home, is that at the end of the day, the Democrats are the wind beneath Bush and Cheney’s wings. That’s the kabuki dance we’ve seen time and time again Selise refers to
Whitehouse’s vote for immunity twice as Selise points out is right at the heart of what scares me. It’s quintissential Democratic voting for whatever Bush wants. If even Whitehouse will do that, as much insight as he has into this DOJ and Cheney’s shell game of EOs and classification and declassification then so will any of them–Feingold always excepted, Chris Doo and a few others. I do not begin to have the way to explain why the hell they do it. I don’t know if the best psychiatrists on earth could.
From Klynn @211 on the last EW Pixie Dust thread:
I can’t explain how/why Whitehouse does this–but your comment goes right to the cancer that is in the Democratic congress right now, and metastasizing exponentially.
Screw that refrain that “they don’t have the votes.” The Democrats don’t have the votes precisely because they are voting with the Republicans consistently. I can figure that much out.
Time wise–I don’t see a bill getting voted on in the Senate before the long holiday break., but that hardly matters. I see much speachifying on the floor and then a joint Conference Committee coming, and I don’t see how they get “debate” and amendments done today.
The web consensus from many good bloggers is that Reid is bring SSIC’s version with immunity to the floor whenever–probably all the more reason that Reid’s office doesn’t want to deliver you all the bad news because people would rather not talk about how they’re scewing you while they’re screwing you. Please keep in mind and carefully read S.2248 the current bill before floor amendments that will inevitably come soon–it’s other provisions are very close to the current PAA and there are enough loopholes and ‘pixie dust’ in it that are in the worst, most vague language possible that sede power to DOJ and DNI–the two awful Mikes right now.
I include Specter’s because I believe Arlen or someone will offer it up as a floor amendment or in Joint Conference Committee.
Congress Reforming Government Surveillance Authority
House passed the RESTORE Act (H.R. 3773)
Specter’s Substitution
S. 2048 Reported out of SSIC (Rockerfeller’s–Senate Judiciary stripped the immunity but not the other horrendous components of it)
There are a good number of patchwork possibilities actually as to what bill goes to the floor and what bill is considered in a conference committee. I appreciate the time and work of Selise/drational and others who are diligent in trying to follow the latest breaking Congressional actions and positions using websites and phone calls to Congressional offices. and I know that on the web this morning, many people are expecting the worst from Reid. Amendments of all kinds from both camps can follow.
I want to post links to the bills that might be considered, for people to see how many aspects of the SSIC or SJC version (with immunity stripped still are very mimetic of the PAA’s horrible provisions chiefly, as Scarecrow did a fine job in pointing out in the summary of the nebulous language that gives the utmost power and discretion not to any court, FISA or otherwise, but to DOJ and the DNI who right now are the two Mikes Mukasey and McConnell. I also want to put up copies of the PAA and read the current bill–much that is horrendous is preserved in it–immunity aside!!!!Additionally there are two other aspects that loom large to me:
See:
http://emptywheel.firedoglake....../#comments by Empty Wheel
Marcy’s exchange @ 23 with LHP @ 16 and the comments that followed on Secret Executive Orders and Cheney’s making Executive Orders his own Wyoming style means of ruling this country is to me an awfully crucial part of this equation–regardless of which bill gets signed into law and it takes up the impact of the secret EOs as do many of the people who comment on that thread.
1) The effect of secret EOs (or (Bush executive orders that got a workout on the EW thread last night.
2) For whatever it’s worth strategy wise, Bushco has the means via PAA to extend it for a year from Feb. 1. 2008–whatever the consequences of that would be.
I want to emphasize this once again. Please read S. 2248 because right now most of the provisions of PAA below are ensconsed right in the middle of it.
“Protect America Act” (S.1927) is an emergency overhaul of the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) and the current bill is terrifically similar to its provisions to let DOJ and DNI not Congress or the Courts run the show.
Allows electronic surveillance of a foreign target without a FISA court warrant, even when the communication involves a U.S. national.
Grants the Attorney General the authority to issue year-long program warrants – without FISA court approval — for surveillance of people reasonably believed to be outside of the United States.
This means that now, American phone calls, emails and internet use with an individual outside the U.S. can be recorded and examined by the U.S. government without probable cause.
Inadequate “minimization procedures” in PAA do not protect U.S. citizens from invasion of privacy.
“Minimization procedures” are secret procedures established by the government to discard communications involving a U.S. citizen that were unintentionally collected.
NSA Director Mike McConnell claims “minimization procedures” will protect U.S. citizens. Yet, under the PAA, there is no legal requirement to destroy communications of U.S. citizens or in any way prevent them from being used or disseminated. Furthermore, there is little Congressional or court oversight of these procedures.
No protection from reverse-targeting in the PAA for U.S. citizens.
Under PAA, there is no independent oversight to ensure that the government is not claiming to monitor a foreign national with whom a U.S. citizen is in contact with, while actually monitoring the U.S. citizen without a warrant.
Under the PAA, communications service providers are required to cooperate with warrantless government requests.
The Attorney General or the Director of National Intelligence can issue year-long program orders to obtain “foreign intelligence information from or with the assistance of a communications service provider” that “concern” a person outside of the U.S.
Communication providers are required to cooperate with surveillance requests and acquire immunity from lawsuits.
The government is granted the ability to tap directly into telecommunications facilities.
The PAA does not address the liability of telecommunication companies who cooperated with President Bush’s illegal national surveillance program following September 11th, 2001. President Bush has asked that the subsequent bill establish immunity for these companies.
FISA court has little authority over surveillance procedures that are established by the Attorney General and director of national intelligence.
The government is not required to report to the court how many Americans are wiretapped or what is done with those communications.
The FISA court can only reject the procedures if they are “clearly erroneous.”
Weak oversight from Congress.
The Attorney General has to report to the Intelligence and Judiciary Committees of Congress twice a year but is not required to report on how many calls by U.S. citizens the program has incidentally picked up or how many U.S. citizens have become targets.
From Wired H/T Bmaz and from Bmaz:
Mr. Reid,
The effort to grant telecoms amnesty for breaking the law is a travesty. Any representative who furthers the debasement of the rule of law or the US Constitution will be called to answer by the people of the United States. It is your sworn duty, sir, to uphold and protect the provisions in the Constitution. It is your duty to ensure that this country be based upon the rule of law.
It has been said that telecoms should not be held hostage to costly litigation in what is essentially a complaint about administration activities.
Yet this ignores that the telecoms employ the worlds’ most powerful corporate lawyers, who are in a battle against Constitutionally protected privacy laws and a small non-profit lawyer (EFF’s Cindy Cohn). Additionally, these lawyers were on board to guide the company through all legal matters, including when the Administration’s illegal requests were first made. Additionally, if the telecoms have done nothing wrong they have nothing to fear, right? Where have I heard that argument before? The legislation in question, the law which you seek to countermand, was put in place specifically for Telecoms faced with the prospect of being asked to enable illegal tapping by the US government.
It has been said “companies are ‘unable to defend themselves in court’ because the government has insisted that their activities be kept secret.” But this isn’t the case. As the SF Chronicle (and others) reported: “federal law allows such defendants to present secret evidence in private to the judge, a practice said has been carried out for decades without any leaks.”
Others claim that if the companies are sued, they will no longer comply with valid governmental requests for data. But this is also not true. The telecoms are statutorily obligated to comply with requests backed by warrants.
Any bill that lets phone companies off the hook must be filibustered. I adamantly oppose amnesty altogether. You must oppose letting phone companies off the hook through any compromise. And you must oppose any legislation that enables the executive branch to monitor communications of US persons without a proper warrant. This is fundamental. You, as the leader of the Senate, must exercise your sworn obligations to protect the US Constitution and act as a check to the overreaching executive branch. This is your duty.
Sir, we are either a country based on the rule of law, or we are not.
faxed to DC
And you do a maginificent job.
Selise where’s that site that lets you know when or if and what Reid’s bringing to the floor.
The people have a right to have exactly one that does instead of this kabuki shell game where an office tells you that they aren’t going to tell you what or when they are bringing to the floor.
You pay their salaries and much more.
Sorry for mispelling “cede”.
Good letter.
But unfortunately I don’t think any of the best and brightest here who have worked for DOJ can ever convince me we have been a country based on the Rule of Law for years. We no longer have Rule of Law, and I don’t think it will ever be back. We are a country of shadow executive orders and signing statements and right now Bush, Cheney, Addington, Fielding and Gillespie are enjoying that with both Democrats and Republicans backing them–no one is questioning them. Sure we are–but they don’t care.As long as Congress backs what Bush and Cheney are doing, they can’t be stopped.
Put in the most crude street langauge:
Money buys the House and Senate votes, and they are always for sale with very few outstanding exceptions.
Take a look at just one Telco’s law firms–and you can quickly see they are hiring some of the cream of the largest law firms in the country and spending hundreds of millions to do it:
Law Firms Suiting up for Verizon
If LHP or anyone else can tell me how in the world we change that paradigm, I’m all ears.