Blue Texan!

You knew it had to happen.

Bbbbbut, don’t Baptists call everyone “brother”?

It’s truly amazing that the R’s can produce such swill to run for president and they are taken “seriously”?

Pappa Bush had the appearance of a serious person.. maybe. But Regan, W and this crew? Through the Looking glass material, ain’t it?

Yes, indeed:

“Don’t Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?”

A spokeswoman for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints tells the Associated Press that the question Huckabee posed is usually raised by those who wish to smear the Mormon faith rather than clarify doctrine. And indeed, a Google search on the subject shows the devil-as-Jesus’-brother claim to be a staple of attacks on Mormonism by those who view it as something other than Christianity.

It’s funny how Republics will go after someone who is honestly religious, like Romney, and embrace someone who only pretends to be religious, like Bush. I don’t have a copy, but I think that the word ‘tolerance’ must have a diferent definition in the Republic Dictionary.

I think we are hoping either romney or hucks are the candidates and I think we should stop turning up dirt on these two till the general

I mean, romney’s religion thinks god turned people’s skin black as a punishment

I have to admit, I think romney is gonna be harder to beat then hucks but I think we can be comfortable if either are the republican candidates

the only republican candidate we won’t be able to beat is hilary

“Don’t Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?”

That would explain Poppy Bush’s good ol’ Aggie hospitality towards Mitt.

Republican Primary Disintegrates into Ugly Sectarian Conflict

Brethern, let us pray. *g*

I see the beginning of the light at the end of the dark Tunnel—the end of the Clintons in national politics. It will be up to New Yorkers to field some decent primary candidates to run against the Clintons when she is up for re-election in the next Senate race.

Maybe there will be a day when Richard Holbrooke, Sandy Berger, George Tenet, etc and the rest of the “stellar” Clinton appointees will be long gone, to be replaced virtually by anything better.

Looks like the Clintons will lose in Iowa and now may lose in New Hampshire.

And this:

The June 1986 edition of Ensign, the “official magazine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints,” explained the answer this way: “On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some — especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel ‘who was in authority in the presence of God,’ a ’son of the morning’ … Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother.”

(Same link as my 5.)

“Follow the Shoe!”

“No, the Gourd!”

Republican Primary Disintegrates into Ugly Sectarian Conflict

Hallelujia!

I keep thinking of Mrs.K8 who hopes that they will be trapped by their own bad actions.

Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother.

And obviously a better suck-up.

Blessed are the Cheesemakers.

let me ask something though to the christian theologians’

aren’t we all gods children and brothers of everyone, does this include the angels and the fallen angels?

aren’t they gods children as well?

It was only a matter of time before his happened… the faith-based ghoulies are going to be all over every aspect of Mormonism from the “found” gold tablets and that angel dude to the Mountain Meadows Massacre and polygamy.

Mitt may want to believe everyone should love him because he’s got perfect hair and can regurgitate the Talking Points perfectly, but he’s LDS toast unless he can convince America he’s a “jack” Mormon by standing up on the stage with his two new best friends, Blue Moon and Johnny Walker, and folks that ain’t gonna happen.

If Huck was not out trying to raise gas money for his Huckabus, he’d probably be bidding on the rights to the Mormon South Park episode to show as a warm-up at campaign appearances.

I really have trouble with this “praying to jesus” stuff

he was the brother, the son, the holy ghost, the father, all three

he prayed to his father though, (forgive them father, they know not what they do). and we would think he wasn’t talking to himself

why isn’t praying to the son rather then the father pagan?

707

“….we hate the Judean People Liberation Front….”

“Splitters..!!!”

but Jesus went on to say we are all the children of god.

pretty circular if you ask me

Perris, you are leading us into exploding brain territory here!

Jesus was “Jeb” to Satan’s “George”, at least according to the Virgin Babs.

The thing is, no doubt the Huck was smearing, but there is truth to it. What I like better is that when Jesus came back from heaven He went to live with the North American Native Americans..lots of real good stuff!

ya, sorry to muddy the waters though and off to work not to see the mess I started

see all later

And the answer is yes, much as Athena and Apollo are half siblings. Depends on which literature you emphasize.

Brian: “You are all individuals!”

Crowd: “We are all individuals!”

This does sound like “my fantasy is better than your fantasy”. Is there no chance that huck and mit can talk about something real? This is worse than britney’s panties

and they all came from zeus’s head, they are all “one” just as the trinity is “one”

pagan if you ask me…errr…off to work

The Republic primary race has become some sort of cross between a slow motion train wreck and the worst reality-show-with-no-writers one could possibly imagine. It’s like “Who Wants to be a President?” without constant commercial breaks. Oh, wait, I guess we do get religious commercial infomercials and spots selling Endless War, Constant Fear, and The Economy Is Doing Great In Spite Of The Financial Meltdown program.

Seriously, we used to joke about being a reality-based community. These guys are completely lost in an alternative universe and it’s the ugliest thing I’ve ever seen. Is there anyone sane in there?

And also this interesting elaboration:

In the Mormons’ view, Ensign explained, Jesus “sustained” God’s plan for salvation “and his part in it, giving the glory to God, to whom it properly belonged. Lucifer, on the other hand, sought power, honor, and glory only for himself … When his modification of the Father’s plan was rejected, he rebelled against God and was subsequently cast out of heaven with those who had sided with him … We can only imagine the sorrow of our Heavenly Father as he watched a loved son incite and lead a rebellion and lose his opportunity for exaltation. But we can also imagine the Father’s love and rejoicing as he welcomed back the beloved son who had valiantly and perfectly fought the battles of life and brought about the great Atonement through his suffering and death.”

(Same link as my 5.)

This is worse than britney’s panties

she doesn’t wear pantiesn according to all those porn sites I visit

Short answer: No, not anymore. Between Terri Schiavo, tax cuts and eternal war they became unrecognizable as Republic (ans).

Now wouldn’t it just be just peachy if the rethug candidates could resolve the problem of evil in their next debate?

but given that passage, it sure looks like it’s jesus that’s taking gods glory to me

as I said, why isn’t praying to the son pagan?

Go to work perris :-)

I can proudly say I’m probably the only male in America who has not seen Britney’s vajajay.

ya… bye

This kind of nonsense may just win Huckabee the nomination, though it may not do him any favours in the general.

Though if this weasel is nominated or (Dawg help us) elected, I will have to revise my opinion of the American electorate even further down than it already is.

I am so enjoying watching the R primaries. Never was a fan of disaster flicks before, but now I begin to understand their appeal.

Hey, Blue Texan, great post.

Haven’t finished reading the comments yet, but I just had to say, now that Huckabee has opened that door, I had a friend in my youth who was Southern Baptist. She said her religion did not allow dancing, and I know some fundamentalists sects think a woman’s hair is her “glory” and she’s supposed to let it grow. So, don’t Southern Baptists ban dancing and require women to grow their hair long? Will Huckabee make those requirements of all Americans, too, as his Church teaches? After all, he wouldn’t sign a bill that called natural disasters “acts of God” until the state legislature changed the terminology to “natural disasters” at great risk to his constituents. Why should voters believe his faith won’t take priority if he accedes to the Presidency and can he prove it?

As Atrios has written a number of times, the problem with the snow-job the GOP has put over on the press in recent years that “people of faith” are the true Americans is that most of the theocons really care a lot about exactly which “faith” you are.

We used to worry this bone to death in 1960’s Lutheranism…God the father, Jesus the son, the Holy Spirit…all one and yet completely separate…holy trinity…completely individual…it’s no wonder the paster brewed his own beer and the youth group was smoking dope, listening to Jimi, and screwing in our parked cars. Ah, a more innocent time…(and there was nothing like sitting in the pew on a Sunday still high as a kite, ears ringing from last night’s concert at the Pasadena Civic Auditorium, trying to focus on this morning’s sermon.)

I haven’t been able to resist the catnip of the battling Huck/Willard traveling salvation shows, either.

God help me, I’m about to quote Hitchens.

I just have to share these lyrics from Bruce Cockburn…

Gospel of Bondage

Tabloids, bellowing raw delight
hail the return of the Teutonic Knights
inbred for purity and spoiling for a fight,
another little puppet of the New Right.

See-through dollars and mystery plagues,
varied detritus of Aquarian Age.
Shutters on storefronts and shutters in the mind –
we kill ourselves to keep ourselves safe from crime.
that’s the gospel of bondage…

We so afraid of disorder we make it into a god
we can only placate with state security laws,
whose church consists of secret courts and wiretaps and shocks,
whose priests hold smoking guns, and whose sign is the double cross.

But God must be on the side of the side that’s right
and not the right that justifies itself in terms of might –
least of all a bunch of neo-nazis running hooded through the night
which may be why He’s so conspicuously out of sight
of the gospel of bondage…

You read the bible in your special ways,
you’re fond of quoting certain things it says –
mouth full of righteousness and wrath from above
but when do we hear about forgiveness and love?

Sometimes you can hear the Spirit whispering to you,
but if God stays silent, what else can you do
except listen to the silence? If you ever did you’d surely see
that God won’t be reduced to an ideology
such as the gospel of bondage…

Huckabee will do what he always does — what I wrote about earlier — is deflect that question about his faith and say it’s irrelevant. He brings religion up when he feels like it then says it doesn’t matter when it’s convenient.

I hope the press calls him on it, but I doubt they will.

Hi, Jane!

It’s funny how Republics will go after someone who is honestly religious, like Romney, and embrace someone who only pretends to be religious, like Bush. I don’t have a copy, but I think that the word ‘tolerance’ must have a diferent definition in the Republic Dictionary.

Oh Badwater, Badwater, Badwater! So you think Romney is honestly religious (or honestly anything, for that matter) even though he expects tolerance for his religion, though he rejects having any Muslims involved in his Cabinet or Admin? Romney may be religious, but he also wears his religiosity like a garment. He needs it to hide his naked ambition!

It’s such a tough call on whether to dig up dirt on them now. It would be better for the one with the most baggage to be nominated, of course, but the risk is that they have time to define themselves, and oppo is less effective. However, they do seem to be taking that decision out of our hands now and descending into full-on mudslinging.

Huckabee is still the candidate who worries me most, but since, in stories like this, we’re starting to see the thin-skinned guy people in Arkansas have been telling us about, I’m a little less worried.

One advantage of Huckabee being nominated is that more of his money will come out of the pockets of other Republicans, so there will be less for other candidates, whereas more of Romney’s will come out of his own pockets.

Hi, puravida!

dum dum dum dum dum

My philosophy for the day: Without evil, there would be no good.

And please file this one under the Ahem department:

The Huckabee campaign says that the “full context” of Huckabee’s exchange with the Times “makes it clear that Gov. Huckabee was illustrating his unwillingness to answer questions about Mormonism and to avoid addressing theological questions during this campaign.”

(Same link as my others.)

Good one, Jane!
“Traveling salvation shows”

That’s pretty much how Christian theologians resolve the argument from evil, Ann! Otherwise we’d all be…you know…atheists. Or something. ;)

My philosophy for the day: Without evil, there would be no good.

Nevertheless, we’d still be better off without Cheney.

family relationships that involve God and angels and humans and sorta humans are always difficult. God is “The Father” so he’s the father of everyone- but that may or not be the same as his relationship to his only “begotten” son. What does the phrase “only begotten son” mean? Did God have sex with the virgin? It really isn’t clear. Christians apparently got this whole idea of “son of God” from the Romans- for the Romans, they apparently DID think that you became the son of a God when your “God Father” came down from the mount and had sex with a “mortal”…

The christians didn’t bother to offer their own explanation.

Bottom line—-no way of smearin the Mormons on this one without leaving a huge amount of territory to defend by Hucky himself.

Mormons are 2% of the population. So, he risks losing the Utah vote.

But, I bet he won’t be calling Catholics “Mary-worshippers” anytime soon.

What’s the minimum amount of evil required for good to exist?

I’m using that, Rox.

The people that the Huckster is appealing to don’t think that deeply. Otherwise, they’d never cosider supporting the Huckster.

via atrios

very funny
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/060890.php

I’m still fuming over Mitt’s Mormon speech from the other day, basically relegating unbelievers and other faiths to the dustbin in the corner. Feh.

What’s the minimum amount of evil required for good to exist?

That’s too philosphical a question for me to answer.

May the McJeezus candidates continue to cannibalize each other.

Hmmmm…if God is perfect in every way, he must have a perfect sense of humor. I mean, maybe even better than George Carlin. So he made his revelations just foggy enough, where some Mike & Matt-type dust-ups might pop up to entertain the rest of us from time to time.

chart here, Jane:

http://roxanne.typepad.com/ran…..oliti.html

God help me, I’m about to quote Hitchens.

Please, Jane, I beg you, DON’T DO THAT!

Here is a cartoon describing the whole Lucifer Jesus brother thing (via AlterNet). Not sure which is weirder, what is depicted in the cartoon or the mindset of whoever it is that decided to make it.

May the Gourd prevail!

It’s not so bad over here in the dustbin.

Who cares?

I used to be mc, but with the new look of the site, I figured I needed a change, too.

In Costa Rica, when someone asks, “how you doin’?” the reply is always, “puravida!” (Literally, pure life). Just seems so…optimistic.

Can someone be said to believe something that they don’t understand? If a man came to you with a paper written in an ancient language that no one (including he) can translate- and claimed to “believe” what was written, his claim would make no sense at all—

Can Christians claim to believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of God when they have no idea what these words mean?

The crux of any religion is believing things you don’t understand. That’s why it’s called faith.

What’s the minimum amount of evil required for good to exist?

An angel’s hangnail?

Here’s Joan Walsh, over at Salon.com, about the Huckster:

But Huckabee is starting to pick up some more prominent evangelical support, including an endorsement from the Rev. Tim LaHaye and his wife, Beverly, who runs Concerned Women for America. That got me wondering about whether Huckabee supports the worldview that drives LaHaye’s bestselling “Left Behind” series, which Huckabee described as “a compelling story for non-theologians.” Although the 16 books in the series are fiction, LaHaye has told interviewers they accurately dramatize real moral and geopolitical tensions and represent a fictional depiction of what’s likely to happen as we reach the “end times,” the chaotic period before Christ’s return to earth. The villain in “Left Behind” novels is the secretary-general of the United Nations, and war and tribulation can only come to an end when everyone accepts Jesus. LaHaye also has some out-there ideas about the role of Israel, believing the embattled nation must expand to its “Greater Israel” borders before Christ can return to defeat Satan. But while Jews are crucial allies for evangelical Christians now, they too will have to accept Jesus as Savior in order to be saved. As LaHaye and coauthor Jerry Jenkins write on the Left Behind Web site: “While it is true that in the broad spectrum of Protestant Christianity there are multiple views of the end-times scenario, the pre-millennialist theology found in the Left Behind Series is the prominent view among evangelical Christians, including their leading seminaries such as Talbot Seminary, Trinity Seminary and Dallas Theological Seminary.”

Let’s hope he doesn’t “compel” the books on us. Does anyone know if Mormons turn up in the books, and if so, how they are treated?

I think this might end up being Huckabee’s kill-shot. From a PR standpoint, his question is brilliant. It appears neutral on its face. It doesn’t mention Romney directly. And it forces a yes/no answer.

Romney’s response has been pathetic. For starters, he gives a weasely answer to the question. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn’t help him. Instead of giving a straight answer to what is essentially a theological question, they also give a weasely answer. And no one is going to think that question went “too far”, so he comes off looking like a whiner.

Romney’s two main weaknesses are his religion and weaseliness. Huckabee has managed to highlight both. And Romney put the whole thing on the table by bringing Jesus Christ up in the first place. Was is a cheap-shot by Huckabee? Of course. But this is the Republican primary we’re talking about here, not some high-minded philosophical debate.

Were that only so.

I’m still fuming over Mitt’s Mormon speech from the other day, basically relegating unbelievers and other faiths to the dustbin in the corner. Feh.

It is getting crowded but if Jane quotes Hitchens it will be messy as well.

Setting up for a food fight in the dustbin?

Won’t be long until someone asks how on earth did Joe Smith lose those golden tablets?

Oops, I guess I just asked it.

I can’t wait until they start to get into the LDS “word-of-God as delivered by talking salamander” controversy of the ’80s.

I think this might end up being Huckabee’s kill-shot. From a PR standpoint, his question is brilliant. It appears neutral on its face. It doesn’t mention Romney directly. And it forces a yes/no answer.

Hmmm — I wonder if Huck should’ve had a surrogate do it, though. Seems like he was already kicking Willard around. This feels like piling on.

To me, one of the odd aspects of all of this is that the Fundies, I think, tend to think that they’re a bigger minority than they really are, as do Liberals. I believe each is about one third of the vote.

Is it possible to be a Fundie and a Liberal at the same time, do you think? I don’t think so, but I guess it could depend on your perspective and others perceptions, and what the definition of “Fundies” is.

Can Christians claim to believe that Jesus is the only begotten son of God when they have no idea what these words mean?

You’re thinking about Bush and he’s probably not a model Christian.

This destroying the torture videos may have legs- Clusterfuck’s already out sayin he knew NOTHING about it. That makes all executive privilege claims null and void as I understand it…May be some “there” there.

Personally, I think Santa Claus may be the Anti-Christ. While Jesus offers the eternal life reward to all believers, Santa rewards only those kids who’ve been good.

From First Read by my pal Chuck Todd:

ROMNEY: The candidate appeared on TODAY this morning, and avoided criticizing Huckabee directly on whether he thought Huckabee was doing wink-and-a-nod criticism of Romney’s religion. On the immigration TV spot against Huckabee, Romney replied, “It’s not negative, it’s accurate… Actually, if you agree with mike Huckabee’s position, it’s a positive ad for him… It’s a contrast ad, not negative.”

On why his numbers have fallen: “We’ve seen a lot of surges this campaign.” Romney went on to tick off the things about Huckabee’s record that he believes deserves scrutiny, including taxes, pardons, and immigration. And on Morning Joe, Romney was asked whether he thought Huckabee was using his Mormon faith against him: “I certainly hope that’s not the case.”

Smith gave the tablets BACK to Macaroni and Cheese- he would never have “lost” them.

I want ta hear about the funny underwear!!

yeah, “the works/grace” vs. “accepting Jesus as your personal lord and savior” debate will make us yearn for the halcyon days of Sunni vs. Shiite.

Just checking in for a second. may be repeating. But Lucifer’s angelic status is at the center and the whole point of Paradise Lost. He is a rogue angel.

IMHO and remembering my college course on Milton.

Hmm, I missed that part in “Under the Banner of Heaven”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U….._of_Heaven

Re: The “Left Behind” series.

I’ve only listened to the first one on CD. I don’t remember Mormons being in it. For the uninitiated, the series deals with the years after the Rapture, when all of the faithful simply vanish from earth. Personally, I found the Rapture part to be the most believable section of the book. The aftermath of it made no sense at all. So the faithful all vanish, and the rest of us just say, “Whoa! THAT was weird!” and then go back to our regular routines? I don’t think it would really play out that way. I think that if all of the religious nutcases suddenly vanished, the rest of us would rapidly come to believe in an extremely powerful (not to mention wildly beneficent) higher power. The reason many of us are agnostic is that things like that don’t happen. The closest thing we get to a miracle these days is the face of some religious icon on a grilled cheese sandwich.

Lucifer, Lucifer, why hath thou forsaken me?

People are starting to look at the Huckster weight loss story..now the Huck campaign is now hedging:

“Even if Governor Huckabee had lost weight by having bariatric surgery, there would be no shame in that,” says Alice Stewart, press secretary for the Mike Huckabee Exploratory Committee. “[But the] fact is that the governor’s weight loss program was very well documented by the media. Steve Barnes of Time Magazine interviewed the governor as well as his doctors.”

ARtimes

Because the Mormon Church is a recent creation, it seems pretty strange to non-mormons. Christianity probably seemed pretty strange at a similar point in its history.

“We’re jungle creatures, Henry, and the dark is all around us.
See them…

in the corners? You can see the eyes.
And they can see ours.”

-Eleanor to Henry, The Lion In Winter

They smear, and you are ready to join in. Only way to a civilized world is to get up out of the mud and be civilized. We do not torture because that is right, we should not smear because that is right. We have the ideas and the arguments, let us stand on that. If we want to be leaders lead.

Tolerance is good but Character is better. DO waht we know is right, not waht they do. If we don’t we re no better than Bush.

However Huckie lost the weight- God did it.

Christianity still seems strange to us dustbinners.

Ah, ah. I believe we both broke that here at FDL. Not to be modest or anything.

No argument there.

When ya add the “begotten son” mystery to the “trinity” mystery- you end up with the popular song: “I’m my own grandpa”.

The crux of any religion is believing things you don’t understand. That’s why it’s called faith.

No, that’s called “superstition.” Ask Stevie Wonder, he wrote a song all about it.

However Huckie lost the weight- God did it.

But Lucifer helped by chewing the fat.

Jesus’ General, a recovering LDS-er has a serious piece on:

Are a candidate’s religious beliefs fair game

or “My Inner-Frenchman on Why Mitt’s Mormonism Matters”

JG

No, that’s called “superstition.”

That too. Fail to recognize any distinction between faith superstition.

“The closest thing we get to a miracle these days is the face of some religious icon on a grilled cheese sandwich.”

Okay, one more song and I’ll stop:

I Need a Miracle

I need a woman bout twice my age
A lady of nobility, gentility and rage
Splendor in the dark, lightning on the draw
Well go right through the book and break each and every law.

I got a feeling and it wont go away, oh no
Just one thing then Ill be ok
I need a miracle every day.

I need a woman bout twice my height
Statuesque, raven-dressed, a goddess of the night.
Her secret incantations, a candle burning blue
Well consult the spirits maybe theyll know what to do.

And its real and it wont go away, oh no
I cant get around and I cant run away
I need a miracle every day.

I need a woman bout twice my weight
A ton of fun who packs a gun with all her freight
Find her in a sideshow leave her in l.a.
Ride her like a surfer running on a tidal wave.

And its real, believe what I say, yeah
Just one thing I got to say
I need a miracle every day.

It takes dynamite to get me up
Too much of everything is just enough
One more thing I just got to say
I need a miracle every day,
I need a miracle every day,
I need a miracle every day, (got to be the only way)
I need a miracle

The Grateful Dead

Here is the latest on that subject:

Mike Huckabee’s weight loss scam

link

What’s the minimum amount of evil required for good to exist?

And what is left when you eliminate all evil if not good?

I don’t disagree that the divide among Christians is destructive, we killed each other for hundreds of years over religion until we found that we could do the same with political dogma.

I just want to question the wording of your statement – works and grace are the two differnent sides. Paul argues that by grace we are saved. (The whole accepting Jesus as your personal savior thing) James, Jesus’ brother on earth, says there must be works.

So who is to cast stones. Politics or Religion, we do seem bent on destroying each other.

For the record I am a Christian, but I believe that all people are worthy of love, and worship God in their own way. We are not to judge others, and we are not to kill. That is what Jesus taught, or so we are told.

Yep — Martin Luther, a sola fide (salvation/justification through faith alone) guy, couldn’t stand the works-oriented book of James — it drove him batshit. He went to his grave not being able to reconcile James and Paul in this way.

I thought they were related? isn’t that what it says in the training manual for morons? I forget that there are a thousand versions of the xenophobia manual

Oooh! So how would that work? If you started to believe in the beneficent power…then poof! You’re gone? That would be fun to watch.

How I was taught, people who believe in God’s power, mercy, and forgiveness are so overflowing with love that they naturally will be doing good works as a result. If there aren’t any good works, it’s part of a diagnosis of lack of faith. ymmv

Oooh! So how would that work? If you started to believe in the beneficent power…then poof! You’re gone? That would be fun to watch.

No. In the books, the Rapture only happens once. If you start believing afterwards, it doesn’t count. Like I said, the Rapture is the most believable part of the series. It gets really weird after that.

It’s all anthropomorphic/speciocentric wishful-thinking silliness, all of it.

Thanks!

But Paul’s teaching was very different from Jesus’ own. That’s what confuses so many. Jesus didn’t even say you have to believe in HIM to get eternal life (see his conversation with the rich young man in the gospels). You just had to follow some commandments and rules.

Paul — who gave no evidence he knew anything at all about Jesus — taught murderously complex and impossible-to-grasp theology about the crucifixion, grace and justification.

How I was taught, people who believe in God’s power, mercy, and forgiveness are so overflowing with love that they naturally will be doing good works as a result. If there aren’t any good works, it’s part of a diagnosis of lack of faith.

But the nature and extent of sufficient “good works” are never adequately defined in the Bible. So how do you know what to do? And thus how would you ever know that you’re saved? And thus, how would you ever know you’re a believer in the first place?

Some folks can live without such answers, but it would drive me nuts.

I always thought that casting Harry Dean Stanton as Paul/Saul in “The Last Temptation of Christ” was bloody brilliant. He has the perfect vibe of a used car saleman.

Don’t Christians believe that women are the rib bone of Adam?

It’s not a matter of “enough” good works. They are the overflowing love from a soul who is in good relationship with the higher power of the universe.

‘I am the Mitt commander!’

;>)

Mormon Temple Undergarment
You made me look.Scroll down halfway for the visual.
Sale bin there too.

I’ll have to see that. Sneak it in when my Christian wife’s asleep. But let’s just keep this between us, ‘k?

Undergarment
Oops!

We can agree to disagree. Every second I think about this brings new unanswerable questions to the fore.

Thanks. When I tried to find a pic a couple of days ago, all I could find was a picture of them in a package. So I gave up.

Can’t think of too many other countries in which some of the more abstract elements of christian theology become part of the presidential election.

It’s really quite amazing, especially when viewed in the context of today’s “Jesus loves me but he hates you” rethug politics. Enjoy!

Shakespeare’s Sister says it well.

No expert but there’s a line somewhere like “No one comes to the father but through me” (red letter text).

still more undergarments…

Link not working

I’m hardly a fashion expert- but looks to me as if there’s money to be made in a re-design of the “garment”.

Does it come in colors?

Link working here, but not the underdrawers.

That’s John 14:6.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (NIV)

Jesus still isn’t saying you have to believe in him to be saved. He’s more likely referring to following his teachings.

Let Us Prey.

Guess that leaves the classic “boxer or briefs” question a non starter for Romney?

Southern Baptists are a mainstream religion, they do not ban dancing, handle snakes, nor are their women forbidden from cutting their hair. There is absolutely no draw-back to being a Southern Baptist if you are appealing to conservative Republicans. None whatsoever.

OTOH Mitt Romney’s Mormonism is a *huge* negative for him and it single-handedly will destroy his candidacy.

Right now the anti-Mormon, memes are wending their way through the religious right’s grapevine, their pastors are talking about in church and in Sunday school. Mormonism really is an entirely different religion from Christianity, and Huckabee scored a critical hit just now.

His damage multiplier will really kick in once the Washington Press starts crying “foul” over this, thus proving to the Republican Base that they are a bunch of out-of-touch “liberals,” and only people like Huckabee really understands them.

From Tithonia’s link:

Whether one believes that Jesus and Satan were respectively God’s son and a fallen angel, brothers, gay lovers, or characters in a fairy tale shouldn’t serve as a substitute for the collective quality of a person established by actions; what one believes does not equal who one is.

Hee hee. Gay lovers. I likes it. ;)

The reason I think the Jesus of the Gospels didn’t ask people to believe in him is that he felt it would be a violation of the second commandment –”Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” The non-Christian clarification is that he knew he was only a prophet, in any case, and so couldn’t possibly even consider such a request.

Actually instead of “prophet,” I should have said, “rabbi.”

Guess that leaves the classic “boxer or briefs” question a non starter for Romney?

lol!

Somewhat relevant to this thread link at Scott Horton’s blog

I understand Romney’s actually looking for an excuse to get rid of his wife’s gift to him of Disney “It’s a Small World” boxers.

but Jesus and God are “one” aren’t they?

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

I think that’s supposed to mean Jesus. But my theology is a little rusty.

I am not a believer that the Bible is God’s infallable word. That makes me a heretic among the faithful. Like all things I read and take from it what I feel makes sense.

Jesus does say that he is the way and through him all must go. But Jesus tteaches a pretty simple lesson, love God, and love your neighbor as your self.

Paul was a very conflicted Lawyer. Romans is very complex but explains clearly his view of salvation through Grace. Most Christians are erally Paulians.

None of it really matters. Each person has to decide for himself. That does not conflict with Jesus’ teaching at all.

Well, fwiw, I know for a fact that Georgetown College in Georgetown, KY was until the last year or so a Southern Baptist affiliated college and they banned smoking on campus (for women) up until sometime in the 60s and they banned dancing on campus until sometime I believe in the ’90s.

The enormous amount of time and ink spent on religion is just staggering.

Don’t we have better things to do with our time and ability to think and communicate?

If there’s a god, she really screwed up when she allowed religions.

Amen, brother (er, or sister).

Another Christian chiming in here, on rwcole’s good question. The doctrine of the trinity was forged, with much hemming and hawing and difficulty, and altogether too much bloodshed, in order to try to untangle a variety of statements about the relationships between Jesus, the Father, and the Spirit made by scripture, statements which may not be flatly contradictory, but which were and are notoriously difficult to reconcile.

As I’ve always understood it, the doctrine is not intended to be understood as a positive statement. It’s a verbal formula which rules out a number of discarded answers to the question of how the persons of the godhead are related, while leaving the final resolution open.

In particular, the “only begotten son” thing is an assertion that rejects the notion that ordinary humans can’t become “sons of god” with all the rights and privileges appertaining thereto; and also rejects the notion that once they do, they will be on a par with Jesus. That leaves space for a variety of positive characterizations, (potentially including the Arian position of Jehovah’s Witnesses) without endorsing any of them.

Brian: “You are all individuals!”

Crowd: “We are all individuals!”
reply

Solitary voice: I’m not

Because the Mormon Church is a recent creation, it seems pretty strange to non-mormons. Christianity probably seemed pretty strange at a similar point in its history.

I dunno: Mormonism seems way weirder than DVD players, the Internet and microwaveable popcorn, all of which have been around a lot less long.

And it’s perfectly fair game to ask for Rev. Huckabee to explicate:

Here’s a list to get him started.

http://www.baptistpillar.com/I…..atholicism

“Once he takes out Romney, he can run ads wondering if the Pope is the anti-Christ.”

Unuh, that’s W, every clear-thinking apocalyptic knows that. ;-)

Maybe Romney should use the same response as Huckabee when asked if Jesus and the Devil are brothers.

“I wasn’t there when he did it, so how he did it, I don’t know,” Huckabee said.”That’s an irrelevant question to ask me – I’m happy to answer what I believe, but what I believe is not what’s going to be taught in 50 different states,” Huckabee said. “Education is a state function. The more state it is, and the less federal it is, the better off we are.”

So Mitt could simply say he wasn’t there at the Creation, and it’s up to the States what to teach about this issue ;-)

Objection, please?

One would assume that most of the folks reading at FiredogLake would be immune, or have the appropriate filtering mechanism for:

Can you imagine what he’d do to the Muslim Obama?

I am not an Obama supporter, and at the risk of being humorless, if we don’t want the WaPo to perpetuate or feed rumors, maybe we shouldn’t engage in this kind of humor? Or, at least I assume it was done in humor.

the LDS “word of God as delivered by a talking salamander thing”.
Of course, there’s the talking serpent in Genesis…and sometime’s I think that the Bible was just warning us that it was just talking through it’s A*S

“When the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat her with his staff. Then the LORD opened the asses mouth, and she said to Balaam, ‘What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?’” (Numbers 22:27-28, NIV).

Huckabee was a pastor at my grandmother’s church in Texarkana. She used to be a professional dancer long long ago, and even in her 70’s she would boogy at the drop of a hat.

I was raised Southern Baptist. Nobody ever, ever, ever told us we couldn’t dance, or that it was a sinful thing. We would have regarded someone who told us so as a religious nut.

“I know for a fact that Georgetown College in Georgetown, KY was until the last year or so a Southern Baptist affiliated college and they banned smoking on campus (for women) up until sometime in the 60s and they banned dancing on campus until sometime I believe in the ’90s.”

As at Baylor, formal dance functions were banned on-campus primarily for traditional reasons, not because Southern Baptists have a religious conviction against dancing itself. Dancing itself was permitted.