I imagine Romney thought he had a winning strategy for dealing with his Mormonism — proclaim loudly that his faith is off-limits and hope that no other serious candidate made an issue of it. Nobody else in the race had hard-core evangelical street cred, so everybody could just put their hand on the bible and observes a sort of mutually enforced "don’t ask, don’t tell."
Then along came Huck. And we get some serious questions asked. Is Jesus the devil’s brother? Is the Garden of Eden somewhere in Missouri?
Enquiring minds want to know.
So I was somewhat disappointed when I saw Marc Ambinder’s interview with Romeny to see that he once again let the Mittster be extremely evasive on the GOP God gambit. Ambinder asks him about the response to his Sermon on the Mount, to which Romney replies:
I’ve gotten a very positive series of comments in that regard. There are a couple of things people have pointed out — why didn’t I mention nonbelievers – well, I thought that was assumed within the general purview of faith but you know, that doesn’t bother me… a couple of other things mentioned, small points, but overwhelmingly, the response has been positive and that’s been heartening. Because I do want to underscore the religious tolerance and diversity that’s a key part of our society.
At which point, a follow-up question would have been nice, something along the lines of "well, you say you wouldn’t allow any Muslims in your cabinet. Do we have a different definition of "religious" or "tolerance" here?"
Or better yet, let’s talk about 1978. Lord forgive me for I’m about to sin, but I’m going to quoteth…Hitchens:
Until 1978, no black American was permitted to hold even the lowly position of deacon in the Mormon Church, and nor were any (not that there were many applicants) admitted to the sacred rites of the temple. The Mormon elders then had a "revelation" and changed the rules, thus more or less belatedly coming into compliance with the dominant civil rights statutes. The timing (as with the revelation abandoning polygamy, which occurred just in time to prevent Utah from being denied membership of the Union) permits one to be cynical about its sincerity. However that may be, it certainly makes nonsense of Romney’s moaning about any criticism or questioning being "un-American." The Mormons have already had to choose — twice — between their beliefs and American values.
Mitt Romney was very much alive in 1978. Did he need the decree of a church in danger of losing its non-profit tax status to tell him African Americans could get into heaven, or was that something he sussed out on his own prior to that time? It’s a reasonable question on the part of a press that damn near had an aneurysm when Keith Ellison announced he would take the oath of office on the Koran.
It’s not off-limits under anybody’s rules but Romney’s. It’s high time somebody asked.



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Jane!
‘No one rules the Mitt like me! Remember that, commander of all Mitts!’
;>)
Did you perhaps mean “aneurism”?
No! I am king of BatShit mountain!
Well, that will teach Mitt to simultaneously trot out his religious credentials while at the same time claiming that religion is a) really, really important and b) not relevant.
He deserves what he gets.
Come to think of it, anybody who swallows such hogwash deserves what they get, too.
True too.
No one does pithy snark like Ms. Jane.
I’m hoping that someone will finally ask Romney about some of the other tenets of LDS belief, such as the fact that their idea of Heaven provides that women are eternally pregnant.
One can’t have it both ways. If he wants to paint himself as such a “man of faith”, perhaps he should be questioned about it. I’d love to know his position on the 1978 “revelation” as well.
-S
This could get ugly, and quite frankly, I hope it does. No Mormon wants a frank discussion about the tenets and rituals associated with their “faith,” because five minutes looking into John Smith will scream SCHITZOPHRENIC to even the most authoritarian mindset. That were discussing his delusions 150 years after the fact is a testimony to the ability to indoctrinate anyone with anything given an early enough start.
Ask about his fucking underwear.
The LDS answer
Just couldn’t resist quoting Hitchens, could you, Jane!
All I can say is, if Dems don’t win this race, it won’t be because the Rethugs didn’t do all they could to help ‘em. I see the Republic party split in so many directions, more than ever before. Unfortunately, for as many splits in the Rethug party, it seems the Dems also find a new way to split their votes. I wish everybody would just look at that poll from yesterday that showed Edwards winning the general against all the Rethug candidates, and take their cue about who is the best candidate, which is always, the one that can win!
love that Neil Diamond tune, tho.
Pack up the babies and grab the old ladies and *everyone* goes…..
You wanna start ridiculing Sikhs, say, for their kirpans and bangles, or Jews who wear traditional garments, or Amish for their clothing styles?
Just wondering.
Quoting Hitchens to deal with Romney — one might say that they deserve each other.
OK, now we both need to seek forgiveness . . .
Huck And Mitt’s Brother Love Traveling Salvation Show
The tent was formerly used to fumigate a house with pesticides.
I just wanna have no reaction unless people rub my nose in their theology.
The General asks a serious question:
As a recovering LDS-er, he offers an insiders view point.
JG
In 1977 I took my parents on a sight-seeing trip through Utah. We visited the state capitol, and in the rotunda they had busts of about a dozen of Utah’s founders, all with long beards, etc. There was one exception. One of the busts had a bonnet, so I decided to walk over and check who was the female pioneer these Mormons were honoring. I looked at the plaque and it read: “To those who served us well.”
Why not question the Huckster about the details of his beliefs too? He seems more like Bush in that department. At least he’s like the way Bush pretends to be. Either way, we certainly don’t need a a Bush clone as President.
“To those who served us well.”
Oh, so they were Deadheads?
;)
Hi Jane…food for thought from George H. Smith…
http://ffrf.org/fttoday/2000/march2000/smith.html
Helps explain Cheney attending church services.
Looks like Nancy is going to get serious next year, and really show the president what a woman can do:
http://www.politico.com/news/s…../7335.html
Re my last post: Smith calling God an athiest refers to another section of the essay where he says since God doesn’t believe in a higher God, he must be an atheist.
And he didn’t even burst into flames. Cheney is one seriously powerful demon.
Oh, great. A more pandering Pelosi. Just when you thought it couldn’t get worse.
I think they take it off to fuck. ;-p
I always thought that brothers considered each other the devil. I am speaking theoretically, of course, since I never had a brother. Since the Almighty (or Alflighty if you believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster) created them both, I think they could be considered frat brothers at the least.
So, you’re saying Jesus belongs to a fraternity? Would that be Alpha Omega?
Yep – seems you almost have to go back to Mark Twain.
I Felta Thigh.
“Did he need the decree of a church in danger of losing its non-profit tax status to tell him African Americans could get into heaven,”
I heard that the change was made so BYU could stay in the NCAA
Speaking of whom, see Scott Horton’s article today.
I think that the great theology wars are the most fun we’ve had in politics since the pigs ate Clusterfuck’s little brother. We’ve got the devil, Jesus, and the angels all in one giant mind fuck.
…Not that it takes much to fuck Republican minds.
From the politico article:
A little editing for clarity
y’know, not to be Little Ms. Prognosticate or anything, but I’ve had a bad feeling all along that this is all going to degenerate into A Civil War About Religion. and not to be even cheerier, but we’d lose. (and by “we”, I mean anyone with non-extremist Christianist views, which includes the sane religious community, not just me and my dirty fucking atheist hippie pals.)
better put that “Calvin praying” sticker on the back of your vehicle today!
So, then, like, Ms. Jane Pithman?
In this, Mitt fails to grasp the basic lesson of the briar patch: that you only beg not to be thrown in if you actually want to be.
Hopefully this Republican primary will illustrate why there shouldn’t be a religious test for public office.
“Pelosi promises a more civil approach”
WTF?
How do you get more civil than her display of rolling over?
Yeah, somethin’ like that.
Rudy’s winning- Romney’s caught in the theology wars and the baptist is tryin ta get the staples pulled out of his stomach for everything falls apart for him. Rudy the Ruthless is sailin along.
Mormonsism = spin
How about asking which kingdom he thinks he will go to:
the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, or the telestial kingdom?
(with credit to All About Cults: What do Mormons believe?)
So far, it seems to have mostly been a poorly-argued case for no standards at all.
If the Mormon Church had held fast to their position on black people, they might be the main religion in the South today and, therefore, the main religion of the Republics. Too bad for Willard.
Without a religious test, how can the Party of the Wealthy convince the non-wealthy to vote for their candidates?
This is not a spam comment….but my full opinion (so far) can be found at Huckabee Questions Mormon Beliefs on Jesus and Devil
Although the Jesus’ General piece linked above is major food for thought. I know, replying to my own comment – pathetic.
Jesus and Satan as brothers? Sounds an awful lot like yin and yang to me. As for the existence of Satan, I have yet to see an evil in this world that didn’t come directly from a human mind or a collection thereof.
Love is God. All else is bs.
Pelosi: “Maybe we should have been thinking about how we were communicating with the public more”
Ya think? OTOH, in one way her messaging was very clear. She is a leader and we are advocates.
I haven’t said it here for about three months or so, but the Presidential contest, though important to the country, is the aspect of national politics on which this blog and ones like it will have little or no effect. The most effect we can have is concentrating on widening progressive influence and perhaps gain progressive control of the US House.
And he didn’t even burst into flames. Cheney is one seriously powerful demon.
I’m more surprised that *the church* didn’t burst into flames. Obviously, Cheney is a second-rate demon at best.
That was wonderful; thanks.
Back atcha with a favorite of mine…
http://ww3.telerama.com/~joseph/cooper/cooper.html
“Pelosi has succeeded in part by having her own team of old bulls, such as Rep. George Miller of California, and younger bulls, such as Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, on her team.”
I have to agree with Vandehei and Harris that with Rahm Emanuel you do get a lot of old bull.
Ah, I do miss that old edit function.
That should read:
“Pelosi has succeeded in part by having her own team of old bulls, such as Rep. George Miller of California, and younger bulls, such as Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, on her team.”
I have to disagree with Vandehei and Harris. With Rahm Emanuel you get a lot of old bull.
From the Jesus’ General post.
Shades of Leo Strauss and all his neocon acolytes. Just what we need. /s
Gosh, I had refrained from ridicule until he excluded me, an atheist, from equal consideration as a citizen. I would have further refrained if the Mormon Church had taken a position opposing the war (as did the Catholic Church). But the first happened, and the second never did. More ridicule for these primitives, I say, if they want “faith” to be part of the public discourse.
I am utterly tolerant of believers until they try to rub my nose in their comic-book intellect bullshit.
Strauss was a super-Machiavellian. But one major thing about Machiavelli he hated: Machivelli was too open in his writing about it; his style was too engaging and direct. Too many people would know what was up.
When will you lefties realize that you can’t argue with God? /s
Hey, is it just me, or does Huckabee look like a Nixon for the New Millenium?
Fine – but ridicule his ideas and his abundant hypocrisy, not his clothing.
I would sincerely like to never have to hear about anyone’s faith ever again.
Sikhs and Amish are peaceful religious minorities in this country — at least they aren’t starting wars or trying to include me in a theocracy. Major Christian denominations in the U.S., particularly those Protestant ones regarded as evangelical, and conservative Jewish ones have been notorious warmongers, so, while I don’t go out of my way to mock the incidentals of their superstitious and ghoulish rites, I’m glad to if they insist on parading them.
Sure. Do his “ideas” include his church’s theology, such as the belief that Jesus and Satan were brothers?
Shouldn’t it be the other way around – Mock his clothing, not his beliefs? Laughing at a hat is worse than laughing in their belief of God? Really?
Jesus and the devil are not brothers. That’s just silly. They are just casual friends.
Were?
OK, who knows what “Smell the Glove” is? And did you know it spun “Smell the Mitten”?
Sikhs and Amish are peaceful religious minorities in this country
You might want to double check your statement about Sikhs – very long history of warrior culture.
Jesus and the devil are not brothers. That’s just silly. They are just casual friends.
Weren’t they paired off on that episode of Survivor – Sinai Desert?
I seem to remember reading that they had been seen hanging out together in a gay bar.
A history of warrior culture in this country?
iirc they like to hike in the desert together.
btw, here’s a bumper sticker you hellbound heathens might like:
JESUS LOVES YOU
Everyone else thinks you’re an asshole.
The other point was how much of the LDS theology is tied into this Country and what that might mean for Mitt’s world view. Religion has become a very important metric in evaluating public officials..which is unfortunate. But when people who believe in war in the Mid-East will bring on the “end time” and use the power of the govt to enable their delusions..then it’s fair game.
What about them Rastafarians and there funny hats and dreads?
And what about them Hassidics — funny hats and dreads? Must be some kind of world conspiracy.
Lots of violence in the south Asian community in BC’s lower mainland.
Is this the old brendan?
pass the dutchie from the left hand side….
Yes. My colorless screen name was gone for some reason.
Positive vibrations yeah
Rastaman Vibrations
I take your point. Ridicule was the wrong word.
when people who believe in war in the Mid-East will bring on the “end time” and use the power of the govt to enable their delusions..then it’s fair game.
I think anyone who subscribes to a belief system that allows for the world as we know it to violently end or be changed during our lifetime, should be kept far, far away from nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. My favorite of many books about this is Gore Vidal’s novel Kalki.
Or small arms for that matter, it only takes a spark to light a prairie fire!
If we’re going to investigate how LDS treated its hued brothers before 1977, we ought to look at how Mormons see women, like, today.
you know, I have never hung out with a bunch of atheists b4. It’s interesting. Don’t you guys ever get queasy about death and all that?
About dieing, of course. About being dead, not so much.
Most of the believers I know also show a marked lack of enthusiasm for death.
Everybody’s wonderin’ what and where they all came from.
Everybody’s worryin’ ’bout where they’re gonna go when the whole thing’s done.
But no one knows for certain and so it’s all the same to me.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
Some say once you’re gone you’re gone forever, and some say you’re gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Saviour if in sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they’re comin’ back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
Everybody’s wonderin’ what and where they all came from.
Everybody’s worryin’ ’bout where they’re gonna go when the whole thing’s done.
But no one knows for certain and so it’s all the same to me.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
Instrumental break.
Some say they’re goin’ to a place called Glory and I ain’t saying it ain’t a fact.
But I’ve heard that I’m on the road to purgatory and I don’t like the sound of that.
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly.
But I choose to let the mystery be.
Everybody’s wonderin’ what and where they all came from.
Everybody’s worryin’ ’bout where they’re gonna go when the whole thing’s done.
But no one knows for certain and so it’s all the same to me.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
Iris DeMent
Lucifer is the brother with the Wide Stance.
Now that I think more about it, you actually raised a good point. I ordinarily wouldn’t raise any objection to different dress or customs, and if I were going to criticize Mormonism, the underwear is the last thing I’d make fun of. In the end, like most people, atheist or not, I just don’t give a shit, and, anyway, it’s probably the ones who look “normal” — or at least adhere to the outward conventions of the dominant culture — not the exotic, extravagant or ecstatic “believers” — who are usually the dangerous ones in their demand for funding and observing their empty rituals. Romney has played with fire — now I want to see him burned, right down to his underwear.
Which is rather odd, isn’t it. Seems like they couldn’t wait to go Deer hunting with the Jeebus.
Bob Seger
Cruisin on the grey snakes till my dyin day
Checkin all the hen houses out along the way
Wastin time and drikin wine
Life is short and I ain’t lyin
Livin all I Can thru every day
(CHORUS)
You can call me Lucifer
If you think you should
Now I know I’m good
Everynight I’m barrelhousin till the moon is low
Shoutin blues and payin dues & throwin way my dough
Ramblin, Gamblin, Lovin, Shovin probably won’t end up with nothin
But at least I’ll reap the seeds I sow
Funky water farmers daughter gonna make the law
Lucy Blue Chicago Green I’ll love em till they thaw
Courtin all the lovely foxes, brunette, redheads, goldi locks
Talkin time to grind my crosscut saw
(
Huckabee said he didn’t know much about the Mormon religion. Seems kind of dumb not to study up on it at least a bit since he is running against Romney.
I’m at peace about death; I see it as part of a very natural process of living. I even appreciate every stage of aging. Except for the pain part, of course. Maybe part of it is we’ve had lots of practice: Our non-existence before we were born, plus every night when we have a dreamless sleep.
But I’m 56 and my kids are grown. An early dying/death I definitely wouldn’t have wanted.
But none of that caused me to want to believe in God. I figure if there’s a God, he will simply do what he will and there’s nothing we can do about it anyway, so why spend a lot of time worrying about it?
“Swear there ain’t no heaven and I pray there ain’t no hell.”
Is that 3 Dog Night or Blood Sweat and Tears? For some reason I always get those mixed up.
I will say that the prospect of sitting on a cloud playing a harp for all eternity would be sheer hell.
God Bless the Child
Blood Sweat and Tears
Actually, Laura Nyro. Blood, Sweat & Tears covered it.
Okay, we can agree on that! (figuratively speaking, of course).
I think that one was Billie Holliday, that BS & T also covered.
Um, yes.
I find alcohol useful in beating back that queasiness. Or creation. Or procreation. Or even feelings that are no doubt kin to the “religious impulse”.
What an odd question.
Most “atheists” are like everyone else: they don’t think about religion or act on that presence or lack of belief. When asked to check a box, however, they’re just honest.
If someone tells me there are gremlins behind his refrigerator he can go ahead and believe it, but shouldn’t expect me to bother to move the refrigerator to find out if it’s really true, much less worship them.
And we were thinking about which version when we said 3 dog night????
Hey, I didn’t know 3 Dog Night even did any of these.
:
* “God Bless the Child” (Billie Holiday song), a 1939 song by Billie Holiday and Arthur Herzog Jr.
* “God Bless the Child” (Shania Twain song), a 1995 single by Shania Twain
* “God Bless the Child”, by Blood, Sweat & Tears
* “God Bless the Child”, by Michelle Featherstone
They didn’t but David Clayton Thomas, the vocalist on the 2nd BS&T had a similar voice to one of the dogs 3 vocalists “The band started with three lead vocalists — Danny Hutton, Chuck Negron, and Cory Wells”. I didn’t care much for BS&T after the first album. If you haven’t heard that it’s worth a listen. Al Kooper and Mike Bloomfield are awesome. 3 Dog Night, bubble gum all the way. Jeremiah was a bullfrog. Brilliant frickin lyrics.
The BS&T first album was fantastic. Probably in my 25 all-time favorite albums. And I’m a blues guitar player from way back…followed Bloomfield from when he was with Paul Butterfield. Wonderful guitarist and great stage presence. Passed way too early.
Never cared for 3-Dog Night. Trivia: The guitarist from one of my old bands was their guitarist for a long time: Paul Kingery.
I just meant that if you are an atheist you presumably accept that once you’re dead, you’re gone. people who are not atheists at least can cling to the fond hope that it is otherwise. I mean arguably that’s the main reason people invented religion.
I honestly don’t know what I believe. I just know that there are times I feel the need for something or someone to pray to. In particular, when I think about what a seething, suffering mess we humans have made of this planet.
aw c’mon. 3 Dog Night is a totally awesome name. Also didn’t they do “Mama told me not to come”?
Good to know that the House is hard at work recognizing in a separation of church and state posture
H RES 847 Recognizing the importance of Christmas and the Christian faith. (under suspension of the rules)
Passed 372-9, 50 not voting
Naah, there’d be nothing especially bad about dying if it wasn’t followed by being dead. :-)
You sir, know what’s up. “East West, In My Own Dream” talking about leaving too soon. Butterfield was so great but the blow got him. As the Alabama King Snake said, “What a great loss to the wonderful world”.
I know the were very popular but, in my opinion, they sucked. Mama Tol Me Not to Come is a Randy Newman song they covered.
3 dog night has to do with cuddling with the doggies camped out at night to get warm in cold places
Old Fashioned Love Song
one of their best.
I LOVE the name: If the night’s really cold you call it a 3-dog night because you’d want to sleep with 3 dogs.
Nah — those three tall guys belting out stuff right in my face — I dunno. Not my cup of tea.
Kick Hit 4 Hit Kix U (Blues For Jimi And Janis)
3 dog night has to do with cuddling with the doggies camped out at night to get warm in cold places
Old Fashioned Love Song
one of their best.
This is how we can chart when the 60’s died.
Don’t you mean Bloomfield?
We’re having a conversation that’s almost irrelevant to the issue raised by this post. We’re talking about “religion” in the sense of sincere expressions of conscience or belief, when the matter at hand is really about how some Republican politicians, who don’t believe any of this stuff, want to use organized churches to steal money.
Yes, good point. I wonder what Eric Clapton would think about that. ;)
well exkyoooooooz me fer mah oh-tee
Jesus is Satan’s brother? See, that was the problem with romney’s “great” speech. he didn’t address that kinda bullshit directly. Head on. he just offered platitudes for the right to sop up.
Since Mitt has decided to make it an issue and since he felt the need to say in a so-called major speech that he believes his Mormon faith, it seems fair to me to compare what he said in that speech with his actual religious beliefs. The entire Mormon faith is based on the fact that its founder Joseph Smith had a visitation from both God & Jesus when he was fourteen years old. It seems that neither God nor Jesus nor even Joseph for that matter were very concerned about atheists or agnostics. They had a nice chat however about which church was the real church. Here’s an excerpts from the “official version” of the revelation (he told many different versions but finally settled on this one).
I think it’s interesting that the only reason for forming the Mormon church was that all of the other churches were an abomination in the sight of God and that he was royally pissed off about it. Not quite the doctrine of “we’re all in this together against the evil secularists.”
I, as a Mormon, am becoming monumentally irritated with intolerant bigots who hold up selected portions of my doctrine, faith and history to ridicule. In the public policy environment, here is what you need to know about my faith:
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
This is what we teach our children and emphasize to each other in our weekly meetings. It is all that matters to public debate. You can just shut up about whatever else we take on faith, it’s none of your business unless you are sincerely seeking spiritual guidance.
Kim Harris
Oldest 14 Year Old
You know, of course, that Huckabee posed a rhetorical question. He knows the Mormon basics, like that their doctrine views Jesus and Satan as spirit brothers and sons of God.
Huckabee is no dummy…this rhetorical question was posed so that discussion like this were opened up…and the truth be told.
To some it will matter, to others it will not.
So it’s a religion of secrecy?
Also, good luck on holding up to all of God’s standards you mentioned without leaning on Jesus. It is impossible to lean on “religious rules” and expect salvation….that comes through accepting Jesus as your personal saviour…not just repeating that He is saviour of the world. He’s the saviour of those that seek Him.
It is by the grace of God that anyone is saved…not a set of rules.
Go to: The Cartoon Mitt Romney Doesn’t Want You To See [VIDEO]
By Oliver Willis, Oliver Willis.com
That it’s got over 500,000 views on YouTube can’t help someone like Mitt Romney Read more »
This has where all this stuff came out about Jesus and Satan!
Check it out at YouTube.com