Even though the White House is stonewalling, the Senate Intelligence Committee held a closed session on the destruction of CIA interrogation tapes, and the complicit Rockefeller emerged to tell us . . . nothing, the intelligence community was leaking stories all over Washington that pointed fingers right into the White House. It looks like the CIA is not willing to take the fall for the President’s torture policies.
First, over at No Quarter, Larry Johnson’s intelligence friends leaked word that the CIA’s recently retired Deputy Director of Operations, Jose Rodriquez, who reportedly authorized the destruction of the interrogation/torture tapes, did not act unilaterally: "He did check with both the IG and the DO’s assigned Assistant General Counsel before destroying the DO’s copies of the tapes." As Larry notes, the NYT article by Shane and Mazetti also reports the involvement of other CIA attorneys in the decision.
The chain of knowledge and approval then moves from the CIA directly into the Justice Department and the White House. We pick up the story from Dan Froomkin at washingtonpost.com:
John Kiriakou, who participated in the capture and questioning of the first al-Qaeda terrorist suspect to be waterboarded, also made clear that every decision leading to the torture of CIA detainees was documented and approved in cables to and from Washington.
Froomkin notes the ABC reports by Richard Esposito and Brian Ross in which Kiriakou described "a considerable paper trail":
Kiriakou: "The cable traffic back and forth was extremely specific. And the bottom line was these were very unusual authorities that the agency got after 9/11. No one wanted to mess them up. No one wanted to get in trouble by going overboard. So it was extremely deliberate."
Next, ThinkProgess carries Matt Lauer’s interview yesterday with Kiriakou.
Lauer asked Kiriakou where the permission was given to carry out torture. “Was the White House involved in that decision?” Lauer asked. “Absolutely,” Kiriakou said, adding:
"This isn’t something done willy nilly. It’s not something that an agency officer just wakes up in the morning and decides he’s going to carry out an enhanced technique on a prisoner. This was a policy made at the White House, with concurrence from the National Security Council and Justice Department."
Then we get last night’s Newsweek article by Michael Isikoff and Mark Hosenball, which Marcy Wheeler analyzes in this post. According to Newsweek:
The CIA repeatedly asked White House lawyer Harriet Miers over a two-year period for instructions regarding what to do with "very clinical" videotapes depicting the use of "enhanced" interrogation techniques on two top Al Qaeda captives, according to former and current intelligence officials familiar with the communications (who requested anonymity when discussing the controversial issue).
[snip]
An extensive paper—or e-mail—trail exists documenting the contacts between Clandestine Service officials and top agency managers and between the CIA and the White House regarding what to do about the tapes, according to two former intelligence officials.
[snip]
Throughout the same period, said one of the former officials, a senior CIA lawyer, John Rizzo, now the agency’s acting general counsel, was also conducting discussions on what to do with the tapes with White House lawyer Harriet Miers. Two sources said that Rizzo also discussed the issue with officials at the Justice Department, which had issued classified guidelines outlining how the CIA’s interrogation program should operate.
As Marcy notes, we seem to have plenty of CIA sources telling public and private stories that link specific authorizations for torture directly to the White House, including repeated discussions with the President’s personal counsel about destroying evidence, complete with paper and/or e-mail trails.
Why did the CIA constantly check with those closest to Bush? Newsweek:
The reason CIA officials involved the White House and Justice Department in discussions about the disposition of the tapes was that CIA officials viewed the CIA’s terrorist interrogation and detention program—including the use of "enhanced" interrogation techniques—as having been imposed on the agency by the White House. "It was a political issue," said the former official, and therefore CIA officials believed that the decision as to what to do with the tapes should be made at a political level, by Miers—a former personal lawyer to President Bush and later White House staff secretary and counsel—or someone else directly representing the president.
For more on what spooked the spooks into destroying the recordings, read through Larry Johnson’s post on "the Italian connection," and the comment thread at emptywheel on why the CIA might have concluded there was nowhere safe to hide the evidence.
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caw caw
FITZ! It seems appropriate!
Good morning Scarecrow!
Take home lesson: Never, never get on the bad side of the spooks.
Good morning Scarecrow. This is the part that is most interesting to me
My bold.
Who has copies?
On another subject. Can you send a copy of your graphic to mucus so that he will know what waterboading is?
american torture in four parts, with harmony.
intro. evidence comes out that the cia (and others, maybe contractors?) used torture and covered it up.
1. cia says “the administration told us to do it.”
2. the administration says, “congress (including the dems) approved it.”
3. the congressional dems say, “we know nothing”
4. the joe scarborough says “jack bauer, jack bauer!”
chorus: the american public. what will we say?
Good morning eveyone. Happy e-mail trails to you all. We seem to have a very determined group of people sending warning shots across the WH lawn. Now, if we only had a Congressional committee to investigate this with a Chair that wasn’t already compromised.
I’m still a bit puzzled
why they have not muzzled
Agent John Kiriakou
Valerie Plame was not cleared
So to talk of his ops seems weird
Upsetting Some Texans Bar-B-Que.
the democrats are missing an important point and loosing to a rove tactic
the systematic drowing of a captive until they aer near death or dead and then relieving them of their near death or reviving them from that death they are calling “waterboarding”
do they call “pulling your nails out one at a time” “manicuring”?, do they call hanging you from your toes a foot suspension?
do they call chinese water torture a head massage?
water boarding is drowing captive and place them at life’s peril and we need a MUCH better term then “WATERBOARDING”
Can you say “virtual tours”? Probably some hard-drive somewhere with stuff downloaded to make copies that still have this stuff stored on it’s database.
Selise, did I not hear last night that congressional leaders (including Pelosi) knew about the “enhanced” interrogation being employed as early as 2002? I forget where I heard it, but it was either Hardball or Olberman.
Shame on them if it’s so.
-MS
I can indeed. Do you think that chimpy plays with his weewee when watching the torture…. is Condi with him? Questions, questions
Why haven’t they muzzled Kiriakou? He’s starting to look like a double agent. It’s possible he’s totally sincere, and the Administration is just in such disarray, they’ve lost control; or it could be the Director wants him out there; or it could be he’s a double agent — sent out orginally to say, “yes we did it, but it was necessary and it saved lives, but gosh we sure feel bad about it” — then he says, “and those people in the WH made us do this.”
I’ve never seen anything like this. There appear to be at least two groups of CIA leakers, with different agendas, and they’re all trying to control the story.
Good Morning Scarecrow,
caw-CAW!
Last night on the news I caught the clip of Hayden being interviewed as he was going into the closed door hearing. I sure got the sense that the idea is for the CIA to tell the Intel committee behind closed doors what happened and that will.be.the.end.of.it. And We The People will learn nothing — not one thing — and the Intel Committee has no intention of doing anything more then hearing the “confession.”
Wait, wait… you are not telling me the most secretive, corrupt, and all around piss poor administration in history is not being (gasp) honest about it’s involvement in activities that could end up in war crimes trials.
This also just in: “Water has been found to be wet!”
It is scary as hell seeing the CIA head in his uniform.
rush holt (who should be chair of the house intelligence committee and who played lead good guy role in the house on fisa) is asking mukasey for the immediate appointment of independent counsel. his letter begins:
and it looks like holt is chairing today’s (closed) house intelligence committee hearing with hayden on this issue.
you give me some hope selise…
gee no wonder he tried to appoint Harriet to the supreme court
Good point. “Waterboarding” sounds like something your kids try to talk you into doing with them on vacation at the beach.
Waterboarding IS Drowning! Drowning is a process…it occurs when water enters the lungs and interferes with functioning causing diaphramatic spasms (coughing, to clear the lungs).
You can kill someone by drowning them…or you can resuscitate them when they have drowned.
When a pathologist writes down “Death By Drowning” he’s not saying that drowning MUST lead to death any more than when he writes down “Death by Blunt Force Trauma”, or “Death by Poisoning” that all trauma or poisonings lead to death.
Water Boarding does not “simulate drowning”, or “make the individual believe that they are drowning”…it IS, in fact, DROWNING. There is no simulation, no belief…it’s REAL.
Thanks Scarecrow,
Confirms what I know — we live in a Police State
It seems Rockefeller just wants to give Hayden an opportunity to clear himself. The chief “fact” (already known) that emerged yesterday was that the tapes were created during Slam Dunk’s tenure and Destroyed under the Gossling regime. Hayden is just there to say, it wasn’t on his watch.
But [not Senator Whitehouse] Rep. Holt announced that he favored a special counsel.
yes. and even i knew we were torturing people in early 2002 just from the msm news and reports from human rights organizations (although not the specific methods, like waterboarding, that were being used).
shame on them indeed.
but more importantly, i think, is the problem that the people who should be investigating (our congress) look thoroughly compromised. that’s why i’m very glad holt is calling for an independent investigation.
I just want to know why Tenet and Goss were not made to appear with Hayden yesterday…
Hate to be negative but…
Holt, tomorrow’s statement
After meeting with the good General, you can rip up my letter.
Everything is okay.
See you after the Holidays…
Give my best to the DOJ…
Nothing to worry about
Love,
Holt
On Hardball last night, Matthews argued that torture worked; otherwise we wouldn’t do it; Terry Drumwiler (sp) tried to discredit that, but Matthews was in his usual pontificating mode and not listening.
on the torture issue?!!? i did not know that.
(although months ago he did call for a special counsel to investigate the doj firings)
oh that’s easy, then the Intelliggence committee might learn what really happened.
This sounds right to me. Never has been any love lost between the intelligence community and the WH. Cheney famously distrusts the CIA, and has for decades, probably. So CIA lays a carefully placed trail of breadcrumbs for the Congress. The only fly in the ointment for CIA is that Congress won’t follow it to any meaningful extent–as some senior democrats such as Pelosi and Rockefeller were complicit in the system of ‘permissions’ back in the good old torture days. Or so it seems.
I fear this will be just one more example of Congress dithering with what could be damning evidence regarding WH lawbreaking.
i’ll wait to see the statement.
holt is the one who lead the fight (maybe even created the fight) with his own house leadership when they fucked up for the second time on fisa with the restore act. he won that one when the entire progressive caucus got behind him.
Today’s spin from an AP article is that the court orders applied to torture at Guantanamo and so the torture tapes destroyed, which were made at black sites outside the US (and not at Guantanamo), were not included.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..sAJEqs0NUE
Of course, the article then goes on to point out that destruction of evidence is obstruction of justice, but it seems to me that the RWA talking point will be that these tapes were outside the scope of the court orders, so no crime was committed. Move along, nothing to see here.
scarecrow, I sent this off to the gmail account and was hoping you’d get it and might want to do a lead, revisiting the issue
could someone please do a story concerning this;
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0213-28.htm
snippet below but I am amazed I had never heard about this till yesterday
and I have always prided myself on at least having a clue as to what is really going on, it is not acceptable someone like me never heard these facts
and I am among many, there are SO many more progressives, SO many more people that THINK the president and cheney lied us into war
this article PROVES the point and we really need to get this viral, EVERYONE should know this story and cheney, bush and rumsfeld need to be embarrassed with it
seems to me right up the alley of scarecrow and I am hoping you guys can get this viral.
snippet below;
In 1972, President Richard Nixon returned from the Soviet Union with a treaty worked out by Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, the beginning of a process Kissinger called “détente.” On June 1, 1972, Nixon gave a speech in which he said:
“Last Friday, in Moscow, we witnessed the beginning of the end of that era which began in 1945. With this step, we have enhanced the security of both nations. We have begun to reduce the level of fear, by reducing the causes of fear—for our two peoples, and for all peoples in the world.”
But Nixon left amid scandal and Ford came in, and Ford’s Secretary of Defense (Donald Rumsfeld) and Chief of Staff (Dick Cheney) believed it was intolerable that Americans might no longer be bound by fear. Without fear, how could Americans be manipulated? And how could billions of dollars taken as taxes from average working people be transferred to the companies that Rumsfeld and Cheney – and their cronies – would soon work for and/or run?
Rumsfeld and Cheney began a concerted effort – first secretly and then openly – to undermine Nixon’s treaty for peace and to rebuild the state of fear.
They did it by claiming that the Soviets had a new secret weapon of mass destruction that the president didn’t know about, that the CIA didn’t know about, that nobody knew about but them. It was a nuclear submarine technology that was undetectable by current American technology. And, they said, because of this and related-undetectable-technology weapons, the US must redirect billions of dollars away from domestic programs and instead give the money to defense contractors for whom these two men would one day work or have businesses relationships with.
The CIA strongly disagreed, calling Rumsfeld’s position a “complete fiction” and pointing out that the Soviet Union was disintegrating from within, could barely afford to feed their own people, and would collapse within a decade or two if simply left alone.
As Dr. Anne Cahn, Arms Control and Disarmament Agency from 1977 to 1980, told the BBC’s Adam Curtis for his documentary “The Power of Nightmares”:
“They couldn’t say that the Soviets had acoustic means of picking up American submarines, because they couldn’t find it. So they said, well maybe they have a non-acoustic means of making our submarine fleet vulnerable. But there was no evidence that they had a non-acoustic system. They’re saying, ‘we can’t find evidence that they’re doing it the way that everyone thinks they’re doing it, so they must be doing it a different way. We don’t know what that different way is, but they must be doing it.’
“INTERVIEWER (off-camera): Even though there was no evidence.
“CAHN: Even though there was no evidence.
“INTERVIEWER: So they’re saying there, that the fact that the weapon doesn’t exist…
“CAHN: Doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. It just means that we haven’t found it.”
But Rumsfeld and Cheney wanted Americans to believe there was something nefarious going on, something we should be very afraid of. To this end, they convinced President Ford to appoint a commission including their old friend Paul Wolfowitz to prove that the Soviets were up to no good.
Wolfowitz’s group, known as “Team B,” came to the conclusion that the Soviets had developed several terrifying new weapons of mass destruction, featuring a nuclear-armed submarine fleet that used a sonar system that didn’t depend on sound and was, thus, undetectable with our current technology. It could – within a matter of months – be off the coast of New York City with a nuclear warhead.
I assume you’ve seen this post then.
Selise — wrt to Whitehouse, sorry, looks like that was Holt. The NYT today only mentions Reid making an angry speech, but nothing about any other Senator recommending special counsel, though there is this:
Sorry, my mistake.
Are you intereted in attending the next NYS area FDL meetup?
The President can issue a blanket pardon at the end of the term rendering any future proceedings null and void.
Would be interested in hearing details (who, where, when etc.). If it fits in my schedule and I can get there — sure! Try reaching me at jackieandmichael AT earthlink DOT net. Thanks.
-MS
Scarecrow -
I vote for this one because the reich wing is using “necessary/saves lives” til’ it’s coming out of their *sses. Please forgive my language but I am still steamed after listening to scar’s spew earlier today.
P.S. to eCAHNomics: That’s my home: I’m not there now.
-MS
maybe we need to be calling whitehouse to ask him? he’s a good candidate for pushing the issue.
biden, i think, has publicly called for a a special counsel – but holt is the only one i know of who’s made a formal request (although, to be fair, i’m following holt now that he’s impressed me so much with his fisa fight – if someone else were to have written a letter, i could have easily missed it).
Sent you an email. Replay when you get it. No rush.
On NewsHour last night, Sen. Kit Bond, when asked whether waterboarding is torture, said it depends, “it’s like swimming.” Jane Harman said, “it’s torture.”
Another way to read the order for info on abuse of prisoners “now at…Guantanamo” is that it means any info on prisoners who are there now regardless of when the abuse may have happened. And Zubaydah is there now, right?
Is it worth trying to get Dodd interested, as well?
I still don’t understand how the agents could actually drown people. Even after getting white house and DOJ approval, they knew better. They knew it was criminal. They should have made Cheney and Bush personally carry out the crime.
I can’t imagine doing this to a rabbit, much less a human being.
A hundred years of research, not to mention anecdotal evidence, tells us that torture has never worked. It’s the same old story that the victim will simply tell his torturer what he wants to hear. Suddenly, the Bush administration has the clarity all of us yokels lack. Torture does work! It has saved “untold” number of lives! We should be thankful that our great white father in the White House can enlighten us dimwits.
http://13martyrs.blogspot.com/
He can’t pardon himself. So, the investigation WILL continue.
Agree…there the group that leaked the NIE and the information about the tapes being destroyed against the Court Orders. Then there was the effort to spin this. Kiriakou is a great spokesperson because, after all, he wasn’t actually one of those involved IN THE TORTURE. He simply says that he “heard about all of this stuff, secondhand”. And he may be sincere about “what he heard”. I’m sure that the pro-torture factions would feed the ostensible opponents with distorted information and say “Look, we were right, you and your crowd were wrong. Torture DID work, it provided actionable intelligence!”
But recall the Press Conference where Bush stated that Abu Zubaydah was initially cooperative…even bragging about al Qaida feats, “giving up critical information that allowed the location of Khalid Sheik Mohammed, interfering with several planned terrorist actions, and even identifying where the individuals involved in these were, and what they looked like.
All that was obtained without the use of extreme “enhanced interrogation techniques”. THEN, for some unstated reason, Abu Zubaydah shuts down. WHY? That’s never disclosed!
Were the interogators changed? Was he suddenly placed INTO extreme “enhanced interrogation” methods? But then they supposedly begin using these mehods on him like water boarding, and he starts giving them more information. But, here is where Kiriakou and Bush’s scenarios diverge extremely. In Bush’s discussion some of the plots and terrorists, and the critical information about KSM was already given. But in Kiriakou’s tale, Zubaydah was relunctant and silent from the start, and only gave up the information after TORTURE.
So they are telling different tales. Why? Did the President get incorrect information? Why would he have downplayed the “benefits” of the “enhanced methods” when he was trying to justify them? Something is very fishy here!
Is the President or Kiriakou lying? Or did someone mislead one or the other, or both? Seems we need either the tapes or a lot of the testimony of the torturers and interrogators present, as well as their reports, to determine what actually happened.
I think there are two factions…the Goss”Hawks” who are essentially the ones who approved the torture, and the subsequent destruction of the tapes. These were individuals who may have negotiated around the established CIA bureaucracy and gotten approval directly from the WH. They were elevated up the hierarchy by Goss when he was made DCIA, and after he ordered the firing of Robert Grenier, and asked for the resignation of his boss, Steven Kappes (who refused to fire Grenier).
Some of the “professionals” under Kappes have returned since Goss was turned out in embarassment when his buddy Dusty Foggo, Goss’ selection to be the Chief Administrator of CIA activities, was found to be accepting bribes and sexual favors from military contractors.
perris — re Rummny — we did a Book Salon on Andrew Cockburn’s Rumsfeld, which has that and similar stories of the neocons hyping threats with phony intelligence. They’ve made whole careers out it.
He’s starting to look like a double agent. It’s possible he’s totally sincere, and the Administration is just in such disarray, they’ve lost control; or it could be the Director wants him out there; or it could be he’s a double agent — sent out orginally to say, “yes we did it, but it was necessary and it saved lives, but gosh we sure feel bad about it”
I think we’re on the same wave-length on this one. My comment from last night:
jayt December 11th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
27
In response to Raven @ 19
but I find it interesting that every time this guy says waterboarding is wrong, somehow the take-away is that the CIA were the good guys – wasn’t their fault – nope – we were just worried about Americans, ya see.. they made us do it, and in hindsight, ummm, maybe we shoulda asked more questions. We feel awful about it – really we do….
Sure he can…he can pardon everyone else and at 11:55 resign and let Cheney pardon him. It will resolve all legal proceedings. You guys can yell all you want but the President IS Commander in Chief and can take such action as he feels necessary to protect the country.
Yes, but he wasn’t transferred to Guantanamo until late 2006, long after the court order regarding those at Guantanamo at the time of the order.
Wow, Scarecrow, this makes my head spin. Excellent post.
I keep wondering if they were watching those videos at the WH.
Keep remembering Gannon…something sleazy was going on.
Houston, we have a problem. But the problem isn’t where you think it is. The American people in their majority heartland heart of hearts probably approve of torture of ‘enemy combattants’. They just don’t think it should be paraded about. It should be a ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ sort of thing. Where are the religious leaders on this? Who among them has stood up against it? We have plenty of bishops and cardinals; where are they?
The Democratic leadership understand this, which is why they will not get out in front. It is appalling how fear has contaminated every part of our political life. Among the people, fear of the ‘other’; among our political leadership, fear of being swift-boated. I’d say the rethugs have done a pretty good job over the past quarter century neutering our politics.
the problem is nobody reads those books but us, and even some of us don’t read them
I had no idea rums and cheney had this track record and I don’t think 95 percent of the people know that is what they do
it is totally bizzare that they were able to pull that off the first time, but then AGAIN?
that is unbelieveable, we MUST be the morons
I think we need to get that story out as if it is breaking news because nobody knows it
Oh Selise, dare I believe this is the beginning?
oh. okay. thanks!
JoeScar has become absolutely intolerable – I’m off to write a letter to MSNBC….
Urgh, the more I read, the more aggravated I am by Congress. Since ChimpCo is a given.
oh, i’m way to cynical to start believing that. *g*
but, hey, miracles do sometimes happen. and it doesn’t hurt to reward good acts:
rush holt: (202) 225-5801
There was something creepy and just plain weird in Kit Bond’s expression when he said that.
They need to haul Harriet Miers’ ass before committee. Enough with the Chimp’s subpoena games.
I may be an obsessive political news seeker but I know I don’t know much more than most people about how the cia usually operates but listening to Kiriakou was surreal. I only saw him on KO & he was on practically every news program. As I watched, the question of what is really going on kept bouncing in my head.
Selise, got your message downthread. luv ya.
Interesting what political chameleons some of this guys are. When Joe S followed Countdown and inherited KO’s audience, he almost sounded rational at times. Now that he has his own shown, he’s changed colors.
Just imagine if Harriet Miers SCt nomination went through. Jeebus!
they need to throw EVERYONE and ANYONE he defies subpoena IN JAIL
what the FRIG is wrong with these people?
I am REALLY mad they let the administration and their aids defy subpeona, REALLY mad
Well it works, if you define your goal as intimidating a large number of people into submission. Or establishing yourself as the Big Cheese who can kill the most people. Primitive way to gain power, but still works these days.
They need to haul Harriet Miers’ ass before committee. Enough with the Chimp’s subpeona games.
I agree, but there remains the pesky fact that they haven’t even gotten around to dealing with her Contempt from her last F.U. when she refused to appear…
Just announced on msnbc that the DOJ is considering leveling charges at the spook who spoke (Kiriakou)
ahem.
and even in best case scenario, it does NOT produce more actionable information it produces less
they can point to a specific event they were able to stop becuase of torture but they can NOT point to the events they WOULD HAVE stopped with the far better methods of persuasion
those methods get better, more accurate, more actionable info
and THAT is what everyone is missing about the information they happen to stumble on through torture
the house judiciary committee voted in favor of contempt for her refusal to appear – in july. have you heard anything about the house considering the issue, or all is the leadership still sitting on it?
shorter perris;
torture prevents the total quantity and quality of information it doesn’t add to it
Bush 41 has been awfully silent during most of Dubya’s presidency — appropriately so. He knows that it’s hard enough being president without your predecessors jumping into the mess, and likely goemetrically harder if one of those predecessors is your dad.
Still . . .
As a past Director of the CIA, past member of the House of Representatives, and past president, Bush 41 has got to be going nuts over the way the torture mess is playing out. The CIA lying to federal courts about the existence of evidence, destroying evidence in apparent violation of court orders, the White House apparently going along with it, . . .
Good thing Bush 41 has health coverage. With the way he’s been biting down on his tongue, he is going to need it.
excellent.
I wonder what the discussions between number one and clinton are concerning these events?
do they just agree to not talk about them?
An outrage.
Maybe Kiriakou can get a pardon.
Or at least a commutation.
)))((((crickets)))(((((((
I watched the vid of Joe, Mika, & Shuster torture argument on raw story. Was Joe still defending torture this am?
Angie, that didn’t take long. A lesson to any other spooks who speak out of school.
To the mods -
I luv you for “disappearing” what originally existed at 36 (not MPS)! After scar, having to read bilge from that troll would have been the straw that broke this camel’s back for the day. Gold stars and {{{ }}} to the responsible person. :-)))
angie!
For something like 7-8 minutes. See last thread for my rant on same.
I’m sure that Bush 41 finds comfort in the way the family trust funds keep growing thanks to his son’s regime.
Let’s hope not. The more whistle blowers the better. I am sick and tired of all criticism of ChimpCo being called partisan or criminal. It’s just deflection. A little static to try and shield the fact that Chimpco is not partisan but has a complete disrespect for the rule of law. But we all know that already.
I can only imagine. My guess is that they mostly keep the conversations polite and non-confrontational, but every so often there have to be some looks exchanged that would speak volumes.
Imagine that newspapers are brought in to them both as the two are flying somewhere. Headline at the top: CIA OFFICER ADMITS TO WATERBOARDING; SAYS WHITE HOUSE APPROVED; COURTS UNHAPPY AT DESTRUCTION OF TAPES.
They look at the papers, then look at each other. One rolls his eyes, as if to say “I can’t believe what my kid did this time,” and the other shakes his head as if to say “I hope Chelsea doesn’t run for office.”
There is that.
JoeScar has become absolutely intolerable – I’m off to write a letter to MSNBC….
goddammit – can’t find the link. Would anyone happen to have it?
(OfT – interesting that the spell-check on firefox just informed me that I had spelled “goddammit” wrong – *two* “d”s – heh)
Being a girl, I guess I thought everyone grew up knowing that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar but apparently not. However the CIA knows it see this article from WaPo about immediate post-invasion intelligence gathering in Iraq.
only by the next president
I just can’t give George H. W. Bush a pass, there was the whole Iran-Contra thaang, which was treason if you ask me.
Because that’s what you do when you find one of those few, bad apples in the barrel.
waccamaw@84:
Thanx. I hope raw story puts that vid up too.
I think it says a lot that the Joe & Chris Matthews crowd absolutely refuse to even entertain the thought that torture doesn’t work & is counterproductive. Thick heads.
I’m not giving him a pass. I’m just examining his nightmares, and wondering when his head is going to explode from holding it all in.
I can’t understand what these guys are waiting for. The scandals keep piling up and they never follow up on the old ones…that were and still outrageous and impeachable offenses. Well, actually unfortunately I do understand…when they find out they will be compelled to do something and that is the problem. The reason Conyers gives about not having enough votes to convict is complete nonsense.
LL,
Is that really what you want to see happen? Bush resign at 11:55 AM on 1/20/2009? Do you believe that Justice Roberts would be right there to swear in VP Cheney as President for five minutes? And then down at the reviewing stand to swear in the incoming President at noon? If that were to happen, then the impeachment proceedings against Roberts for Obstruction of Justice (minimum) would commence by 1PM.
And would you really want that to be the precedent setting move for all presidents moving forward? Do you really want that for the United States? To become fully and completely just another Banana Republic dictatorship? If so, why do you hate the United States, the Constitution, and our freedoms so much to throw them out the window and into the gutter?
Maybe Kiriakou can get a pardon.
Or at least a commutation.
Or a commendation – from the CIA, who I still suspect may have sent this guy out to deflect the blame from the CIA over to the Exec branch…
Mods!
More smooches and hugs! *G*
I know what you mean — and agree with your point — but one little correction: the CIA is part of the Executive Branch.
Oh OK, sorry, I can see what you mean now.
What charges? For torturing or talking?
I think he meant Chimpo
ExecutiveImperial HQ.Regarding Harriet, I don’t think they should subpoena her until Congress votes her in contempt for the first subpoena. That’s because Mukasey has said he can’t hold her in contempt for that first once, since DOJ gave her an opinion saying that the invocation of privilege was correct.
By waiting until she has been held in contempt by Congress, and thereby separating these two issues, you leave the possibility that Muksaey’s DOJ won’t agree that one can invoke privilege in a clear case of destruction of evidence. Both Dems and Republicans are talkign about potential obstruction here. And since the REpublicans are talking obstruction, it’ll be harder to invoke privilege in this case, bc there would be a general understanding it was an attempt to cover up a crime.
So wait, then subpoena her, on the hopes that Mukasey will make her show up this time.
Sieg Heil! Your wars have lasted longer than WWII and your Commander-in-chief has failed. He has let Saudi Arabia and Pakistan carry out acts of war against our country using “al Qaeda” as a “false flag”. He has failed his oath to preserve and protect the Constitution.
Of course, the real President is Darth Cheney, the 4th branch of government-the fascist branch.
Do Not Feed The Trolls.
Let the mods work their magic and let them go make a mess of someone else’s place.
Dakine01, Actually yes, that is exactly what I want to see. If the opposing party is going to start to criminalize political disputes than the only chance to save the institution of government is to absolve all who worked for it of criminal liability. The idea that the Democrats and members of this Lake would actually TURN over a leader of our sovereign country to an international tribunal is anathema to me. So the better answer is a blanket pardon.
Christmas cancelled in Basra this year. O’Reilly is gonna be sooooo pissed….
Recently, I watched the documentary “Disappeared” about the Dirty War in Argentina in the 70’s and 80s and this summer was in Peru where I happened to see a photo exhibit on the horror of the Shining Path years. In both instances I thought to myself, thank God this could never happen in the United States.
Well, I woke up this morning thinking about the fact that the U.S. now tortures its prisoners. (A horrible way to wake up, I assure you). But isn’t this the overriding issue? If our government is willing to cross the line to torture its prisoners and spy on its citizens, how much further can the line be to mass arrests of dissidents, their disappearance, and mass graves?
I never though it could happen in this country. The fact that the unimaginable is now possible scares the livin’ shit outta me.
I think he meant Chimpo Executive Imperial HQ.
lol. Yeah, that’s what I meant, but you said it so much better. thanks. (still chuckling)
Yes, even with the madman currently occupying the Oval Office, whose actions are destructive of this country and others — with THIS Congress backing him up, anyway. Together they’ve created a de facto dictatorship/tyranny.
“Your a mean one, Mr. Grinch!” (Please sing it in your best Boris Karloff voice)
;-)
“We have met the Grinch, and it is us.”
It was for talking (according to Mika)– nothing to link to though.
hi mui.
OT coming up on CSPAN 3 at 10 am
DHS Nominee Hearing
The Senate Homeland Security & Gov’t. Affairs Cmte. takes up two nominations for the Homeland Security Dept. Jeffrey Runge, currently Chief Medical Officer of DHS, was picked for Asst. Sec. of Health Affairs. Harvey Johnson, a retired Coast Guard Vice Admiral, is Pres. Bush’s choice for Deputy Admin. & CEO for FEMA.
The President may have already issued a blanket warrant rendering any prosecutions by any of his Administration “null and void”.
What is that called?
A dictatorship.
Presidents in the past used blanket pardons to show mercy upon enemies and those who committed acts that the Federal Government disfavored. Washington pardoned most of those that participated in the Shay’s and Whiskey Rebellion’s, Lincoln gave pardoned Confederate Veterans who swore allegiance to the US, Roosevelt pardoned rebels in the Philippines, Harding socialists in the “Red Scare” period. Mormon polygamists, draft evaders, and marijuana smokers have received blanket pardons. But except for Reagan’s pardoning of two FBI agents who spied on dissidents, George HW Bush’s blanket pardons of those involved in Iran-Contra crimes, and Bush’s commutation of the sentence of Lewis Libby…Presidents have simply never used this power to absolve members of their iwn Administrations from punishment.
And no one has ever considered the expansive usage which you seem to suggest that Dubya would apply it. That’s almost like some Dark Ages satrap giving pardons for the rapacious acts of his Sheriffs simply “because I can”.
Peterr December 12th, 2007 at 6:43 am – 106
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S’truth!
The CIA is a problem.
It’s supposed to be gathering intel about the threats to this country.
It’s obviously doing a lot more than that.
Then of course it needs secrecy for even its most benign approach to their mission. This is troubling. When there is secrecy there is a tendency to misbehave as there is no consequences – can’t get caught, misbehaving can’t be aired in public. Solution RIGOROUS oversight? Not possible when you have the overseers with political agenda. Houston we’ve got a problem.
The intel services are very troubling in a democracy. We have taken their presence and need for granted. Intel is used and abused and their operatives use and abuse people in many cases.
We need to have a close look at what INTEL does, and how necessary it is and how to control and manage it.
I don’t trust ANYONE who is in or was in the CIA. Why? Anyone in there, has bought into the entire “agenda” of spooks, spying and black ops. That’s what the CIA does. It’s not just reading the foreign press.
Secret police? Fascism? Bad choices in a democracy and subject to abuse.
If it’s there, they’ll abuse it.
struggle!
I would love to see JoeScar & Matthews have the WW2 intelligence interrogators who recently spoke out on the success of using non-torture techniques appear on their shows.
Oh and the CIA has plants in the media… writing propaganda and passing it off as new and commentary.
It’s what they do. They don’t deny it either.
Blue Texan has the morning church service upstairs. New Thread. Bring your hymnals.
I don’t think the professionals in the cia are the problem, they know what to do, what not to do and they are the ones telling us they get better intel when they don’t use torture
the problem is the “cia b”, the maggots that were put into the organization by cheney, rumsfeld and they other nazis
read my post at the top regarding this “make believe inteligence” program these two nazi’s count on for their propaganda
chilling stuff
Or Malcolm Nance.
It is NOT a dictatorship NOT to execute power (i.e., to refrain from a prosecution). It is a welcome LIMIT on the power of government to criminalize a political dispute which has destroyed too many Republics from Rome to France and Russia.
Pretty strong words coming from the CIA. Certainly, appears to be the start of a standoff. Still awaiting sallies from the other side, with us as onlookers.
I agree that waterboarding sounds too much like snowboarding, and conveys far too little information or, worse, incorrect information. Perhaps it should be called…water-garrotting.
it should be called “drowing till heve bile, convulse and you are dead and then revived”
that’s what is should be called
Criminalizing political disputes? Torture is a political dispute? Lying about weapons of mass destruction to drive a nation into war is a political dispute? Hugh’s list of abusive behaviors is a political dispute? When you stand before your maker, you will want to make those points loud and clear. Maybe your maker will be impressed with the way you ameliorated your fear of the mighty terrorist conspiracy by killing and torturing other people. Or maybe not.
I think some would have us believe that waterboarding is not unlike the torturer, one hand on hip, the other whipping a hankie out of his vest pocket, dipping it in a demitasse of water, then flicking it out, watching it flutter onto someone’s face.
waronwaroff@123:
Yes.
I would like to see Joe & Chris shout over retired WW2 vets describing their top-secret interrogations (no torture involved) of Nazi pow’s. I would like these retirees to tell Joe & Chris that they were able to extract info in a battle of wits & did not compromise their humanity.
Here’s something interesting.
Mukasey may have a conflict of interest problem already, and may have to call upon a Special Prosecutor.
Jose Padilla’s lawyers argued before the Florida Federal Court that Abu Zubaydah was tortured into saying Padilla was an al Qaeda associate. The DOJ dismissed Padilla’s allegations as “meritless,” asserting Padilla’s legal team could not prove that Abu Zubaydah had been tortured. Well, it’s clear now that they certainly COULD have, if the tapes of the interrogations of Abu Zubaydah had been made available!
Now here is where Mukasey’s role comes into question. U.S. District Judge Mukasey, now attorney general, was the one who signed the warrant used by the FBI to arrest Padilla in May 2002. Court records show the warrant relied in part on information obtained from Abu Zubaydah’s interrogation. So we have a problem Houston.
The Attorney General can only issue a warrant based upon legally obtained evidence, and confessions under torture are certainly not “legally obtained”. So either Mukasey was misrepresented the evidence, and would be liable to be potentially a party in those who were presented with “perjured evidence”; or he knew that torture was used in obtaining the confession and ignored it.
In either case he is unsuitable to run an investigation, as it will, inevitably, involved himself. Thus a Special Prosecutor is necessary.
By your logic a President or his minions “could” do anything, and then pardon his minions and himself…and call it a “political issue”, when i fact it was a criminal issue (since true “political issues” cannot be criminal acts – political acts are subject to “impeachment”). Pardons by their very nature require that their be a criminal act involved. A President cannot “pardon” impeachments.
I suggest you look at the Federalist Papers #69 I believe you’ll find some very interesting statements about the reasons that the Presidential power to pardon would be checked indirectly, by public opinion, and by Congress.
You seem to think that the United States IS a DICTATORSHIP already. We are a Republic “Liberty Lee” with a TRIPARTITE division of powers. In this case the when an Executive arbitrarily removes the authority and power of one, or both, of the other branches it is, in fact usurping the Power of the other two…destroying the checks and balances to its own power.
In this case of a blanket pardon that would protect members of its own Administration who violated laws (enacted by Congress) and judged as convictions by the Judicial Branch (by Judge and a Jury of Common Citizens)…the essential checks to tyrrany are removed.
Caw, caw, Scarecrow! A very insightful post!
I don’t know whether to call the current onslaught of actions by the CIA an insurrection or the beginnings of a coup, but I do know that payback is a bitch!
A most interesting observation! Excellent!
The punishment for impeachment, however, is loss of office and emoluments thereof…i.e., his pension. And given the fact that the Dems can’t get the votes in the Senate to convict (even if they could impeach in the House), that won’t happen either. Barring that, the President IS free to do as he pleases whether you like it or not.
Doesn’t Matthews make you want to throw things at the TeeVee? He won’t EVER shut up.
C’mon! The reason the Dems are not seeking impeachment (or actually investigating anything at all) is because they are complicit. There is not a single thing that Bush/Cheney has done these last 7 years that the Dems are not largely or fully complicit with. ANY real investigation of the crimes of Bush would inevitably draw in the crimes of the Dems doing the investigation.
They can’t go after Bush for ordering torture because they were briefed on the torture and were A-OK with it and have remained mum on it since! Nailing Bush on grounds of illegal acts of torture means they are nailed too. Same with any financial illegalities: the Dems are feeding at the trough just as greedily and sloppily as the GOP and Bush/Cheney! Truly, not a single crime of the Bush Admin doesn’t in some way implicate at least some Dems in the same crime, or at the very least, similar crimes.
There is no impeachment possible because they entire Democrapic congress would also have to impeach themselves.
Would any of this have happened if a DFH or Progressive Democrat were president? Of course not.
John Edwards for President — Leadership America can be proud of!