mornin’, BT

Great points BT. Never thought I would live to see a day when the GOP would be advocating torture to protect Americans. What a travesty. Isn’t this how fascism starts? Anything and Everything is acceptable in the name of protecting American lives. Wow. I now know why it is called wingnuttery.

But Jack Bauer can do it & it works. Yep, love em some Hollywood types.

Blue Texan writes:

think the ‘08 RNC just found their slogan: “By any means necessary.”

Or maybe some variant of “Laws? We doan need no steenkin’ laws!”

OT
Sen. Cardin on C-SPAN3 seems not to know how to pronounce Guantanamo. Comes out something like Gwatamino. As grating as nucular.

shoulda heard tough guy joe scarborough this morning talk with such authority about all the comfort those thoughts of drowning a bound man does for him. joe’s such a manly man, you know.

The very, very sad fact is not only is it unlawfull, imoral, unethical, UNCHRISTIAN, and unconstitutional IT. DOES. NOT. WORK.

Last night, Arianna was squared off against Cliff May (don’t really know much about him, other than that he’s loud and rude). His take on waterboarding - “If a guy has information that could help us, sure I’m willing to provide him with an uncomfortable afternoon“.

So maybe that’s the new meme. Reduce “torture” solely to the act of waterboarding, done one time only, and completely in the absence of any other torture techniques. This is a dangerous new tactic, imo, and is probably sell-able to John Q. Public.

One. Single. Bad. Afternoon.

Where are the big guns, the megaphones, the screaming from the rooftop opposition to come from?

“I vas only following orders”

Torture works just fine. The point is to get the prisoner to tell you what you want to hear. For example, without torture, al-Libi would never have confirmed the close link between Saddam Hussein & al Qaeda.

here’s what people that say “we get information” don’t add;

the information you get is at the expense of even more information you would have gotten if you used the alternative methods of persuasion

this is up right now at think progress;

Zubaydah was waterboarded, but defended those actions as having prevented “maybe dozens” of planned attacks and “probably saved lives.”

see that?…”probably saved lives”…does he have any idea how many MORE lives would have “probably been saved” if they used the methods of persuasion?

not, he then goes on to say;

“We don’t need enhanced techniques to get that nugget of information,”

and that information is more valuable, more acurate, more actionable

in any event, the lead over at think progress is this stunning quote;

Former CIA Interrogator: We Carried Out Torture Because The White House Told Us To

Torture, as you say:

DOES. NOT. WORK.

Here’s the problem, though. They justify it by saying that dozens of attacks have been prevented. And since they say that over and over and over…. too many people buy that as true.

Indeed, if you want to justify torture… then waterboard someone, and get them to admit to knowing about “dozens” of coming attacks. PRESTO! Just like that… you’ve proved your point!

Exactly. World War II vets have spoken out condeming waterboarding’s controlled drowning as ineffective. Now we have the CIA guy saying yeah, it’s torture, but it’s okay.

Interesting that he’s coming out right now to “legitimize” torture…nice clean cut boy like that? Why he’s one of us…he couldn’t be doing anything, you know, bad….

The thing about Jack Bauer is: 1. he’s a FICTIONAL CHARACTER [sorry, had to penetrate the kool-aid crowd’s reality-deadening earmuffs. and 2. Even the fictional character PAYS CONSEQUENCES.

Be a man, Bushie…come out and say you authorized it and face the accountability of your “legacy.” The truth will set you free.

So which Zubayda does Kiriakou think he’s tortured? Posner’s who incrimated Saudi royal family, or Suskind’s who was a low level mentally ill driver? Enquiring minds want to know.
http://www.boomantribune.com/s.....192315/477

You of course are correct because of my pathetic writing ability. My point is that it does not produce accurate information. Someone being tortured will say anything to make it stop. When I was military, training in the Geneva Convention, what to do with POW’s, how to act if captured all were covered extensively. We were taught that some of the most severe punishments provided for by the UCMJ were reserved for those convicted of violating a prisoner.

And Malcolm X rolls over in his grave.

Again.

BTW, so much for destroying the torture tapes to protect identity of torturer, who has now outed himself.

I’m so glad that I’m not the only person who saw that slight of hand this morning. “Yes, it was torture, but it broke him in 35 seconds, and then he gave us lots and lots of information.” Right. And no one points out that the “information” was of unknown value, and probably mostly whatever he thought the interrogators wanted to hear.

And also, what slipped past without comment, is that abu Z. had been subjected to a month of isolation and shock before the waterboarding “broke” him. A regressed schizophrenic, subjected to torture, is going to say anything.

Why yes, I am reading Naomi Klein’s book right now. Everyone should.

I actually wasn’t trying to cast aspersions on your writing ability, but rather to make the point of what the purpose of torture actually is. If you don’t realize that people are tortured precisely to obtain the kind of false information that the torturer wants to hear, then you will spend a lot of time & energy spinning your wheels.

Posner’s - or Suskind’s?

I think it’s worth bearing in mind that Posner believes he’s written the definitive book “proving” that Oswald acted only in the JFK assassination.

IOW, he’s nuckin’ futs.

Kiriakou tried his best to do the “ticking time bomb” scenario, all the way down to claiming that a partially assembled bomb was on the table in the house where he was arrested.

Brian Ross did virtually nothing to challenge Kiriakou in the interview, although he did probe a little further on the claims of disrupted attacks, to the point that Kiriakou did have to admit that none of the attacks disrupted were planned for the US.

To me, the whole interview was nothing but staged propaganda.

I think it’s worth bearing in mind that Posner believes he’s written the definitive book “proving” that Oswald acted only in the JFK assassination.

Have you read the book? It’s very good.

Jack Bauer (aka Kiefer Sutherland) is in jail now for drunk driving.

Heh, some super hero role model.

I’ve pretty much made up my mind between the two. Suskind seems on pretty solid ground in all kinds of areas. But they’ve destroyed the tapes (or at least that’s what they say), so we can’t know for sure. Which also leaves Kiriakou free to make any claim he wants.

Is there a link? I’ve read reports of the interview but haven’t actually seen it myself.

The very, very sad fact is not only is it unlawfull, imoral, unethical, UNCHRISTIAN, and unconstitutional IT. DOES. NOT. WORK.

I believe that the reason that the former agent, John Kiriakou, a leader of the team that captured Zubaydah, came forward was to deliver the message that waterboarding does work. I think he’s the same guy that said that he did not see the technique as torture then, but he does now, but he still thinks it’s necessary.

I don’t see it as necessary, mind you, or as effective as they’re trying to say it is. This time it supposedly broke the subject in 35 seconds, and I’m assuming all the information that they collected from him afterwards checked out. But I don’t know why, once the enemy realizes they are likely to be tortured if caught, the enemy doesn’t make up stories to tell their tormentors to send them on wild goose chases or running up blind alleys, or into traps. This cannot be that hard to figure out for people who are willing to do suicide bombings.

BT is speaking of John Kiriakou’s interview by Brian Ross of ABC news:

- video and article: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/.....038;page=1

- transcript: http://abcnews.go.com/images/B.....071210.pdf

The only way you can claim that torture itself prevented an attack is if you acquire “actionable intelligence”, i.e. confession leads directly to locating others involved or hidden materials intended for use in an attack. Otherwise, it is the very act of apprehension and detention alone that prevents the “ideas” of subsequent attacks from occurring. I am not aware of an example of actionable information being obtained that directly led to a specific outside intervention.

It’s posted at http://abcnews.go.com/blotter. They cut the interview into about 10 pieces interspersed with commercials, but it’s worth watching. Kiriakou is quite polished, but to me seemed to just be full of BS.

Just one more indication that our education system turns people into reliable bricks in the wall, rather than critical thinkers.

The GWOT is not a pimple on the ass of WWII or the Cold War (when the USSR had tens of thousands of nukes pointed our way). America managed to get thru these real tests, Constitution intact.

Bush used 9/11 as a stalking horse to get what the powers-that-be really want - a reversal of the New Deal and back to the Robber Baron Era. Total control.

Damned if they aren’t within a whisker of getting it.

and I’m assuming all the information that they collected from him afterwards checked out.

Wow, that’s a HUGE assumption, imo…

Exactly right. When suspect witches were tortured they confessed to violating the laws of physics. 99 out of 100 people would do the same. Still, it shouldn’t matter whether torture “works” or not. It’s wrong and it would still be wrong if it produced true and useful information.

Now we know why NPR’s execrable “This I Believe” had a lovely, saintly, former Gitmo “interrogator” on last weekend telling us about the “civilized lifestyle” she experienced there. NPR Check has the goods.

This is a dangerous new tactic, imo, and is probably sell-able to John Q. Public.

One. Single. Bad. Afternoon.

First, do you think they’ll knock some time off the sentence in the Hague because of our policy of limiting torture to One. Single. Bad. Afternoon?

Actually, I don’t think this is a new tactic at all. I read somewhere that a form of this technique was used during the inquisition.

This is a good illustration of the flood of “ideas” that were divulged by Khalid Sheik Mohammed after being tortured. He simply claims credit for everything under the sun though none of it is actionable. Him being in jail was by far the most important determinant.

True Confessions? The Amazing Tale of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed:

Excellent point. Guess they didn’t need be destroyed anyway since the CIA operative in charge of waterboarding is on CNN.

While watching Feinstein’s hearings I’ve sussed out another requirement for Boo$h Administration legal flunkies: must have totally annoying voice. Steven Engel can give Brad Schlossman a run for his money. Odious to the max!

WWJD?

What Would JackBauer Do?

Cliff May is a very accomplished neocon propagandist, one of their best. His pitch last night was a minor variant of the ticking-time-bomb meme. The bottom line is that, regardless of its effectiveness or lack thereof, waterboarding is simulated execution which is defined to be torture by international treaties that the U.S. Senate has ratified, making them the law of the land under Article VI of the U.S. Constitution:

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

retry-

True Confessions? The Amazing Tale of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed:

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/for.....shaikh.php

America is terminally ill.

Another terrorist attack the nation will scream for Bush to ‘take off the gloves’.

The ball is on the tee, ready to be knocked into the field.

-G

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/.....mo-haynes/

ThinkProgress has another great story. Morris Davis prosecutor at Gitmo was removed for not supporting Torture. This is another direct link to Torture and Darth Cheney, assuming we needed another.

I had instructed the prosecutors in September 2005 that we would not offer any evidence derived by waterboarding

When originally asked why he was stepping down, Davis said that the Pentagon had ordered him “not to communicate with the news media about my resignation or military commissions.”

For a dose of perspective on torture, let’s check in with George Washington:

“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.”
– George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

Well, now I’m once again confused. I have heard alternately that the guy that came forward was the torturer, and that he (Kiriakou) was not the torturer, but was present at the capture of Zubaydah .

Listening now. He was NOT the torturer, he was the capturer. Will have some comments after I’ve listened to the whole thing.

There’s a lot more we need to know about Kiriakou’s “confession”. Kiriakou has apparently been, unlike Valerie Plame, allowed to state where he was serving between 1998-2004. Yes, he was serving in Afghanistan (according to his writings in the NY Times and elsewhere) between those dates. Even while the Taliban were the established government Kiriakou was somewhere in the country.

Then, after 9/11 and the US invasion, Abu Zubaydah is snatched up in Pakistan and apparently flown to Thailand for interrogation. Kiriakou asserts that he is there, at the interrogation and torture. Perhaps he’s the only reliable Arabic translator available? It’s all a bit strange that they would pull a field officer in Afghanistan out to participate in the interrogation.

And I found this very interesting statement by Bush about Abu Zubaydah and what he revealed, both before, and after torture.

After he recovered, Zubaydah was defiant and evasive. He declared his hatred of America. During questioning, he at first disclosed what he thought was nominal information — and then stopped all cooperation. Well, in fact, the “nominal” information he gave us turned out to be quite important. For example, Zubaydah disclosed Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — or KSM — was the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, and used the alias “Muktar.” This was a vital piece of the puzzle that helped our intelligence community pursue KSM. Abu Zubaydah also provided information that helped stop a terrorist attack being planned for inside the United States — an attack about which we had no previous information. Zubaydah told us that al Qaeda operatives were planning to launch an attack in the U.S., and provided physical descriptions of the operatives and information on their general location. Based on the information he provided, the operatives were detained — one while traveling to the United States.
We knew that Zubaydah had more information that could save innocent lives, but he stopped talking. As his questioning proceeded, it became clear that he had received training on how to resist interrogation. And so the CIA used an alternative set of procedures. These procedures were designed to be safe, to comply with our laws, our Constitution, and our treaty obligations. The Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively and determined them to be lawful. I cannot describe the specific methods used — I think you understand why — if I did, it would help the terrorists learn how to resist questioning, and to keep information from us that we need to prevent new attacks on our country. But I can say the procedures were tough, and they were safe, and lawful, and necessary.
Zubaydah was questioned using these procedures, and soon he began to provide information on key al Qaeda operatives, including information that helped us find and capture more of those responsible for the attacks on September the 11th. For example, Zubaydah identified one of KSM’s accomplices in the 9/11 attacks — a terrorist named Ramzi bin al Shibh. The information Zubaydah provided helped lead to the capture of bin al Shibh. And together these two terrorists provided information that helped in the planning and execution of the operation that captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.[6]
[edit]

First off, the detail that is used by Bush makes me think…did he see the videos?

Secondly, this scenario is very different from the one suggested by Kiriakou. Almost all the evidence relating to capturing KSM, information about a planned attack and even the location and descriptions of those who were involved…ALL WITHOUT TORTURE. So it’s not at all certain that Zubaydah wouldn’t have revealed more without torture. But we don’t know what triggered the “shut down”. Perhaps it was something that reflected the change in attitude by the interrogators themselves. Perhaps they finally got clearance to torture and decided to use it anyways.

Maybe this is why people like Kappes and Rogier opposed the new “torture regime”?

Off on the business of the Queen. See everyone later.

Either we were wrong to prosecute Japanese for waterboarding in WWII, or we are wrong now. I would like someone to ask each of the presidential candidates which it is.

If waterboarding while engaging in a global war is suddenly ok, then the US owes an apology to the families of the Japanese men prosecuted as war criminals for doing it.

Ann,

In the interview, Kirakou states that he was present at the arrest and took part in many interviews with Zubaydah. He also stated that he was given the opportunity to take the training for “enhanced interrogation techniques” but chose not to. His reports of the waterboarding were second hand, based on CIA cables he read.

BTW, he said he underwent waterboarding himself and lasted only five seconds. By lasting 35 seconds, Zubaydah was seen as quite tough.

With all the revelations regarding the crimes of Bushco over the last week makes me fear war with Iran is closer than ever.

A conflict with Iran that kills thousands of US soldiers will mean we will have to retaliate. Can the American people be fooled into rallying around the administration for a new war?

I’m afraid I know the answer…

Here’s hoping that (former Navy Seal) Malcom Nance is going to speak to this issue again…

From AP:

[W]aterboarding of Abu Zubaydah got him to talk in less than 35 seconds. The technique, which critics say is torture, probably disrupted ”dozens” of planned al-Qaida attacks, said John Kiriakou, a leader of the team that captured Zubaydah, a major al-Qaida figure.

Kiriakou did not explain how he knew who approved the interrogation technique but said such approval comes from top officials.

”This isn’t something done willy nilly. This isn’t something where an agency officer just wakes up in the morning and decides he’s going to carry out an enhanced technique on a prisoner,” he said Tuesday on NBC’s ”Today” show. ”This was a policy made at the White House, with concurrence from the National Security Council and Justice Department.”

We have always been at war with Al Qaeda.

-G

We created Al Qaeda.

We have always been at war with the mujahaddin.

-G

This administration makes me crazy! I have to snicker because I am actually toying with the idea that, what if Kiriakou is a plant to distract us from Posner’s POV because they don’t want us to entertain the notion that the Saudi’s had anything to do with questioning Zubaydah.

It seems to me that the Repukes have become the Nazi party, and they don’t even realize it. I smell war crimes…that is what the Admin is afraid of.

In my opinion, the answer is very simple.

Prez Bush and many folks believe that waterboarding and torture is
justified.
If they believe this, then so state and declare.
The problem is that they don’t have the balls to say it in public.
They are fucking cowards and a disgrace to this nation
They hide behind legal decisions…
I’m afraid we have to take it to the streets.

Right.

Crossed my mind too.

Bush is clearly a war criminal.

-G

FWIW, the following is from Brian Ross’s interview of John Kiriakou on ABC:

JOHN:
Water boarding was one of the techniques, yes.
[…]
He resisted. He was able to withstand the water boarding for quite some time. And by that I mean probably 30, 35 seconds–
BRIAN ROSS:
That’s quite some time.
Intv John Kiriakou ABC (tape1).doc
MEDIA ID: TAPE #1 Pg.17
JOHN:
–which was quite some time. And a short time afterwards, in the next day or so, he told his interrogator that Allah had visit him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate because his cooperation would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured. And from that day on he answered every question just like I’m sitting here speaking to you.
BRIAN ROSS:
And a willing way?
JOHN:
In a willing way.
BRIAN ROSS:
So in your view the water boarding broke him.
JOHN:
I think it did, yes.
BRIAN ROSS:
And did it make a difference in terms of–
JOHN:
It did. The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of
Intv John Kiriakou ABC (tape1).doc
MEDIA ID: TAPE #1 Pg.18
attacks.
BRIAN ROSS:
No doubt about that? That’s not some–
JOHN:
No doubt.
BRIAN ROSS:
–hype?
JOHN:
No, no question. No question. The reporting– I remember reading the reporting, and it was dramatic when it first started coming in. Now, of course, a lot of that was time-sensitive. So after a period of time he wasn’t to– to provide any real actionable information, any information that you could use to disrupt an attack.
But what he was able to provide was information on the al Qaeda leadership. For example– if bin Laden were to do X– who would be the person to undertake such a– such an operation? “Oh, logically that would be Mr. Y.” And we were able to use that information to kind of get an idea of
Intv John Kiriakou ABC (tape1).doc
MEDIA ID: TAPE #1 Pg.19
how al Qaeda operated, how it came about conceptualizing its operations, and– and how it went about tasking different cells with carrying out operations.
BRIAN ROSS:
And in terms of the actual planned future attacks?
JOHN:
Yeah, we disrupted a lot of them.

Durbin is asking what happened to the 400 plus people that “took a little tour through Guantanamo”…..exactly…

“How many picked off the battlefield?” “21 out of 775…only 1 captured on the battlefield”

I wonder if they are even alive.

Gitmo hearings live now on C-Span 3

Steven Engel, Office of Legal Counsel being questioned by Durbin
Brig. Gen. Thomas Hartmann, Military Commissions Office, being questioned by L. Graham

That proposed RNC ‘08 slogan is very similar to Doonesbury’s 2000 Reform Party presidential candidate slogan: Whatever It Takes. However, it’s hard to decide which Republic is most like Uncle Duke.

and I’m assuming all the information that they collected from him afterwards checked out.

Wow, that’s a HUGE assumption, imo…

Well, I’m only assuming that for the sake of argument; not in the real world.

The only issue is if the Bush family is making as much money off of the Republic Party now as they made off of the Nazi Party then.

Reducing torture to an “uncomfortable afternoon” proves once and for all, ski boots are torture.

Right. And, torture need not be physically uncomfortable. Putting a person before a firing squad that has only blanks is “simulated execution” and therefore “torture.”

W was taught by experts. They are making more money now. Crime pays in his family. They have no morals or values or ethics. Bush is not religious. Bush comes from a fascist family. He is running a fascist government. His party is a fascist party. He is not a Republican, he is a fascist. Republicans think they are Republicans….some are…the one’s that agree with W are fascist, and they have and are committing war crimes.

Hey, if having an odd and annoying voice is a current qualification, I have an ex-husband somewhere in Indiana that they can have. Maybe they could use him to practice their torture techniques!

Whether torture “worked” in this case is the issue in this Kevin Drum post.

It is possible that some have actually been executed. There is no proof that the 400 plus that are no longer in Gitmo are alive.

Heck, if that’s the qualification for torture, they should just pipe in a bunch of Hillary’s speeches to the detainees. That would, most assuredly, be torture.

Guess the MSM does not consider Waterboarding torture. From the AP’s latest article:

“Waterboarding is a harsh interrogation technique that involves strapping down a prisoner, covering his mouth with plastic or cloth and pouring water over his face. The prisoner quickly begins to inhale water, causing the sensation of drowning”.

I wonder if the AP writer Pamela Hess knows that waterboarding has been considered torture since the Spanish Inquisition? It has now become a “Harsh” interrogation technique according to her. Wow.

How do we know that the black sites are not concentration camps such as those used by the Nazis? How do we know?

The administration is behaving exactly the same was as the Hitler administration.

From AP:

Filed at 11:08 a.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) — Attorney General Michael Mukasey is to meet the press publicly for the first time Tuesday with a decidedly tense topic on the agenda: the CIA’s destruction of videotapes of terror suspect interrogations.

From No Quarter, it appears that they are lying about destroying the tapes.
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2.....ure-tapes/

“way”

Feinstein bringing up “undeclared state of war”….

You can never detroy evil. It IS. But we can manage it by reducing its power when it rears its ugly head to established positions of power - President. Evil doesn’t play fair. Does evil ever appoint Mr. Nice Guy - never. It appoints a reflection of himself. Hitler and the Bush line reflects each other. Expect nothing more of the shrub line.

What a way to start a morning! And this is after a good night’s sleep.

Hi Scarecrow. Thank you. That’s exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Perhaps it’s like this:

Torture is bad
Only bad people do bad things
We are good people
Therefore, it isn’t torture.

Second Gitmo panel up on C-Span 3

Mark Denbeaux, Seton Hall Law School Professor speaking

representative from military and another from 9-11 families

So do I. His voice is really torture to the ears. I can volunteer him. I think that’s why I wore headphones throughout most of my marriage.

The standard BushCo line has been in essence: “We don’t torture, and besides we had to.”

Shudder….shiver…shudder. Thank Goddess that we have the net, because evil is being exposed…by the minute it seems…

Great, maybe the reporters can ask him if he will release info
on Plame to Waxman

If I’m following Denbeaux correctly, only one person at Gitmo was picked up by American forces on the battlefield. All others were brought in by other military or by bounties. Can that be right?

Yes.

So I have listened to the entire interview. There’s something very odd about the whole thing. Let me try to articulate a few of them.

BTW, Kiriakou (let’s call him K) was in on the capture and initial questioning of AZ, but not on the torture part.

1. As cinnamonape mentions, Kiriakou has apparently been authorized by the CIA to speak, as that is required for all ex employees. And he speaks fully, hiding only the location where AZ was taken. So you may be sure that CIA has strong motives for wanting this information out & is using Kiriakou to do it.
2. K is extremely articulate & his dimeanor is pitch perfect. Almost like he was recruited from central casting.
3. K claims that the were about to double check everything that AZ said, after AZ broke, and that it all checked out. That AZ never lied, never exaggerated. To me, that statement doesn’t pass the human being test. I’ve never known any human who is that consistent, even when they’re trying to be. Note also that if they were able to double check everything from other sources, it undercuts the arguement that AZ had critical information.
4. The most suspicious line in the whole interview was when K said “They hate us more than they love life.” Seems to me I’ve seen that talking point somewhere before.

I have a pretty good intuition about bad guys & K stinks in my opinion. If I’m right, then we need to figure out what game he’s playing & for whom.

I almost wish you hadn’t brought that up.

Considering the influence of Perle (distantly) and Feith/Wolfowitz (functionally), it must have been some twisted, sweet revenge to be able to cart off Muslims to the “sticks” of Eastern Europe.

The same places where the Wansee Conference considered for their relatives some 60 years ago.

errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Denbeaux: people keep saying 30 people were released by Gitmo and returned to battle. But only 3 did. The rest include 5 people who made a video about their experience; the Chinese Uigers; and [egr personal favorite] 2 people who were never in Gitmo to begin with.

He gave the disposition of all 27 but these are the ones that stand out as the most surprising. Is making a video now equivalent to ”returning to battle”?

Bounties are good. It’s solid capitalism. If you make money by it than it must be OK. Notice how we always treat slavery like it came out of a vacuum? We never call it capitalism in its purest form. It doesn’t matter how you make money; it is just good to make money.

Now up at Gitmo hearings

Rear Admiral John Hutson, President
Franklin Pierce Law Center

Says he initially favored military commissions but “for too long.”
We can close Gitmo, let’s not pretend we can’t.
“We need to make a change. The time is long since past.”
“We ought to demonstrate to the world what the United States stands for”

If you listen to their constant justification for everything….”They are Islamicfascists and they want to kill us all”…”We can’t wait for them to kill us first”….etc., so logic has it that they are telegraphing exactly how they plan to deal with “those people who are evil and want to kill us”…

Look at the behavior…the torture…the kidnapping…the renditions…the outsourcing…the fanaticism of the neocons…

I’m tellin’ ya…the world has been through this before, and the older people recognize it.

Yep, I had virtually the same response to the interview. I have long held that if any of these activities had actually resulted in a real intervention to prevent a real attack, every possible bit of information about it (and the glorious heroes involved) would have been splattered into the media in nanoseconds. That these claims come out now, and in such unverifiable fashion, to me says that K is involved only in “after the fact” justification. At best, I would guess that his capture disrupted a local attack or two in Pakistan where AZ was holed up.

As far as I am concerned, when our people over in Iraq stop coming back beheaded and with signs of obvious torture/dismemberment, I will start to consider stopping water boarding, or other forms of “torture”. Until then, water boarding will be the least of insurgents worries.

Loved some of the responses in the article listed in the original article:

http://www.julescrittenden.com.....rboarding/

Older in my case being 52. (g)

It was quite a performance, though, wasn’t it? I was imagining all the rehersals they must have put K through to get it just right.

Think I’ll google him & see what he is doing now.

Well, uhhhh, at this point, years after the fact. Does it just go away? Swish!

Older as in Europeans who are still alive now, but lived through the Nazi era. Older than you (or me *G*)!!!

Debra Burlingame up

National Sept. 11 Memorial Foundation, Board of DIrectors member
Her brother was one of the pilots killed on 9-11.

Hope other people will tune into C-Span 3 and help get this testimony out there.

Yeah. We need to get the transcript and quote from it.

Mrs. Burlingame makes the right argument. I wonder if the folks here will cover it with the same loving kindness as the others. You do ANYTHING you have to do to catch the Islamo-Fascists who are the REAL enemy of civilized people everywhere.

One thing to consider…those who were beheading people…we don’t really know who they were/are..Death squads began after the invasion..after Negroponte was there and started the El Salvador program…

I agree. Something about that interview doesn’t pass the smell test. (And my suspicions are based on something more than my wish to believe in the ineffectiveness of torture.)

Something about that interviewperformance doesn’t pass the smell test.

Edited to add accuracy.

Dis…information….pro..paganda…..Cover…thy…asssss….

War is ugly - good reason not to go into it for frivilous reasons, like “he tried to kill my Daddy”. That aside, the people who put together the Geneva Convention rules understood two basic truths that all the attempts at rationalization can not undermine.

First, if we do it so can they. We do not want our troops tortured, so we do not torture theirs. So one says that the enemy is barbaric and will torture our troops so we must torture theirs. That is the doorway to the breakdown of civilization. We do what is right, so when it is all said and done, uncivilized behavior can be assessed and punished.

Second, the slove is very slippery upon which torture resides. The death camps of Germany were an extreme, but a logical one if you follow the skid marks on that slope. All people are deserving of civilized treatment in a civilized world. That is the declaration that was made at the founding of this country. That is who we are supposed to be. No class, no group of people are deserving of anything less than humain treatment.

Those two idea are the basis for the Geneva Convention. We must never allow any one or event to alter that wisdom.

When I google him last night one of the hits listed his occupation as actor. Of course there were others listing “security consultant,” etc.

Kurt,
Believe it or not but part of what made the US the country we are supposed to be is that we are better than those who do the torture.

Or did your mother never tell you that just because others do something doesn’t make it right or something that you should do.

Links? It’s been slow going for me because most of the articles surround the ABC performance.

Burlingame is concerned about the legal firms and affiliated PR firms related to detainee cases at Gitmo.

LibertyLee, I try to do everything with “loving kindness” to use your phrase and am doing the best I can to bring highlights of the hearing to fdl while doing about 8 other things at the moment.

Here is his filmography: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2768372/filmotype

But it doesn’t say “actor,” so perhaps I misremember that part.

See #117.

It’s just stunning what Khalid Sheikh Muhammed asserted he planned.

Don’t blame Osama or Dr. Zawahiri! KSM claims he was responsible for the WTC/Pentagon 9/11 attacks “from A to Z,” he said.

He was also in charge of the earlier attack on the World Trade Center in 1993.

Super Khalid continued his spree while on the run from an international effort to capture him.

~ He personally decapitated “the head of the American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan,” he testified (after water boarding).

~ He personally flew into South Korea and identified targets “such as American military bases and a few night clubs frequented by American soldiers.”

~ He contacted Robert Reeves and gave him the plans for the “Shoe Bomber Operation to down two American airplanes.” Ooops! Only one “Shoe Bomber”.

KSM planned, financed, surveyed, trained, and followed up operations to attack American military vessels and oil tankers in the Straits of Hormuz, off Gibralter, in the Port of Singapore, and the Panama Canal. Somehow globe-trotting to heck these sites out without tripping off any security notice. Of course, he’s a master of disguise and has hundreds of aliases…a regular Sydney Bristow (Jennifer Garner’s role in ALIAS)

He asserts he masterminded an assassination attempt against Pope John Paul II.

Had to do a little vacation in Bali, where he swas responsible for the nightclub bombing that killed over 200 Indonesians and tourists.

He financed and surveilled an attempt to assassinate former President Carter
Was intent on blowing up Library Tower in California, in a crazed scheme that no one could imagine would ever work. For some reason he was intent on destroying the Plaza Bank in Washington State. maybe because it had a “z” in it’s name?

He was the one behind plans to bomb Sears Tower in Chicago. This was unrelated to the “plot” by Black Zionists down in Florida, BTW. THAT ONE was a sting by the FBI.

He absolutely loved New York, planned to complete remake the skyline by destroying several suspension bridges, the New York Stock Exchange,and last but not least, the Empire State Building. London he really disliked as well, targeting Heathrow Airport and the Canary Wharf Building.

And he continued~like that horrible applicant for the job listing that asserts that he really was the one that did everything at the 20,000 employee firm where he worked.
~He took responsibility for the Filka Island Operation in Kuwait that killed two American soldiers.
And don’t forget destruction of numerous nightclubs in Thailand
Planned attacks on buildings in the Israeli city of Elat using Saudi airplanes. Yeah! The Israelis wouldn’t notice the odd flight path of THOSE!

He took credit for planning and financing bombings of American embassies in Indonesia, Australia, and Japan.
He was able to plan and activate the bombing of a hotel in Kenya used by Jewish travelers.

Oh and let us not forget the planning, surveying and financing to hit several nuclear power plants in the United States.

I wonder why he didn’t admit to killing Natalie in Aruba, the wives of Police Capt. Peterson, and the dogs at Michael Vick’s house. I guess none of the interrogators were Atlanta Falcons fans. If they had asked I’m sure he would have confessed.

And the US “absolutely needed” the torture of Abu Zubaydah to catch KSM…because, magically, the great Svengali somehow couldn’t be caught, despite the vast number of communications and travel and outrageous theft of plans and observations he had to have made. No one saw him, no one caught him crossing the borders, and despite the full power to intercept ANY foreign phone calls without warrants, they could intercept and trace his calls. So we had to torture Zubaydah!

Wait! According to Bush, the key clue to catch KSM came BEFORE his torture! So let’s just ignore THAT!

And there just has to be evidence developed afterwards that establishes these plots were really planned and orchestrated by him, rather than something he read about in the newspapers or on FOX (or that his interrogators had)?

That sort of evidence would allow him to be TRIED in a Federal Court…and convicted and executed. Hmmm! Maybe the evidence is a bit like a watery broth?

Thanks for the insight into the soul of darkness. You might as well issue a formal surrender to the terrorists. Because when we sacrifice our morals and values to “Defeat the terrible terrorists” they have won.

Rear Adm. Hutson: Waterboarding is torture and illegal.

In response to a question by Feinstein about what would you think if an American soldier was waterboarded.

I dunno…the way things are going…we’re getting closer to MIHOP…Just my own personal opinion.

What proof do we have “he tried to kill my daddy”? Is this a rumor placed out here for us simple folk to understand? Did the shrub family rumor-mill put this before the public? I need to see the persons who heard it first-hand and what was their position that made them privy to this comment. Maybe it’s just me. I think the Shrub family rumor is just urban myth.

It is actually part of the justification in the AUMF.

Salem witches were menioned above, and it set me thinking: just what was the ‘dunking stool’? I had always seen it presented as a way of publicly humiliating a person, but now I wonder whether it was not ’supervised drowning’, done with the intent of dragging a confession (to d*mn hear anything!) out of the victim.

We may have waterboarding and the like a little deeper in our genes than we have imagined, which makes Washington’s quote (earlier comment) all the more remarkable and admirable.

What proof do we have “he tried to kill my daddy”?

I think Shrub said that in one of his pressers, during the excuse-of-the-week period before he invaded Iraq.

BTW, there’s an e-mail going around with Ben Stein’s remarks from the CBS Sunday Morning show. Effective counters for his cr*p would be helpful.

Jane has a new thread for us upstairs!

You do ANYTHING you have to do to catch the Islamo-Fascists who are the REAL enemy of civilized people everywhere.

I would normally not feed a troll, but …

Libertylee, NO person who would do ANYTHING is CIVILIZED. Indeed, SELF-RESTRAINT is the DEFINITION of CIVILIZATION.

That and the ‘water test’ to see if you were a witch, where they’d tie the victim and dump them in a lake or river. The idea was to see if they’d drown (or nearly drown) which meant they were innocent. Being able to float was a sign of guilt (this was a period when many people didn’t know how to swim).

Denbeaux: people keep saying 30 people were released by Gitmo and returned to battle. But only 3 did. The rest include 5 people who made a video about their experience; the Chinese Uigers; and [egr personal favorite] 2 people who were never in Gitmo to begin with.

So if one is in a group that was training to fight the Communist Chinese are released, and they go back to fighting the Chinese…that means that they are “enemy combatants” against the US Government?

That’s something that all those anti-Communist right-wingers might want to remember!

Survival is always the exception to your rule.

What my mother told me, or didn’t tell me is beside the point. Determining that my soul is dark is a matter of judgment on your part. Don’t misunderstand me, I don’t like torture and think it is disgusting. However if it will save even one American life, or bring us one step closer to ending the conflict in Iraq, then so be it.

Please remember, this conflict with Islamic Radicals have been building for a long time now. This didn’t start on 9/11, that was just the catalyst. There was a first attack on the WTC in 93, there were numerous things throughout the 80’s. This is going to be a war that we fight throughout this century if this country is going to survive. Its not going to matter if its a Democrat or Republican in the White House/Congress. “Torture”, regardless whether you like it or not, is going to be a part of that….again regardless of who is in power. Example: Look at how Hillary is not walking to the same tune as the other DEMS. Why? She may actually be president and have to deal with that first hand (something I am sure Bill counseled her on).

LL,
[edited by moderator to remove personal comment] The Germans and Japanese during WWII and the Soviet Union during the Cold War all posed far more of a threat to the US than Al Qaeda does today. The only real threat they pose is the rush by people like you to give away our rights and freedoms.

It is deja vu. I get this real sick feeling. This is not America folks….. This is the dysfunction of the American Japanese Internment Camps, recognized today as deplorable and unacceptable, allowed today. It is the identical justification based on twisted logic that gave rise to Hitler. Being of German blood and pro Isreal I’m perplexed and wonder how people of Jewish faith involved in this fiasco can participate in it and breath at the same time…. It is a “virus” which our constitution was designed stop. The same “virus” which infected Germany and inflicted pain on the world, “disinfected” by thousands of Americans who now occupy sacred ground. Irony…..

Another brick in the wall …

Malvina Reynolds said it first (and IMHO, better):

And the people in the boxes
All go to the University where
They all get put in boxes,
Little boxes all the same.

And there’s doctors
And there’s lawyers
And business executives
And they’re all made out of ticky-tacky
And they all look just the same.

And they all play on the golf course
And drink their martinis dry
And they all have pretty children
And the children go to school
And the children go to summer camp,
And then to the university
Where they all get put in boxes
And they all come out the same.

No, actually Islamo-Fascism is worse. The Russians and Chinese at least housed states with whom carrots and sticks could work. Islamo-Fascism is not threatened by loss of territory per se. Only threats against them and their families work.

[Mod: please leave people’s families out of this, and please do not advocate violence, thanks.]

L. Graham—we can protect our nation against the enemy and still have due process, it’s a false choice to say we have to have only one or the other, and if we give up our process, the enemy has already won.

The hearing is over, but there are people angrily speaking and asking questions.

Israel of all countries knows that it is threatened with extinction unless it deals with the Islamo-Fascists. Arabs from the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to Saddam Hussein to Ahmad Ahmadinijad have been threatening to blow them into the sea. They need to act before their enemies do…

I don’t like torture and think it is disgusting. However

It is with the “however” that you start going wrong.

Torture doesn’t work. There is no “however”.

James,

I don’t understand this. We are fighting a radical idealogy much like that of Hitlers Germany. The problem today is our enemy is not clearly defined. How do you make the correlation to how Americans are acting/think to what is happening in Germany? In the overall war on terror, we are simply responding to an attack on our soil. We are not locking up people based solely off their race or religion.

I am not trying to be critical of you here, I just don’t understand the connection you are attempting to make.

Thats kind of like saying public executions don’t work, when we know it does.

Dunking or Ducking Stool…apparently it was so innocuous that the last time it was allowed domestically was in the early 1800’s. Used for getting witches and others to confess…as well as punish prostitutes, scolds, nags, gossips…primarily used to abuse women into compliance….to remain silent and obedient.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1934-Liste.....otohosting

I believe the public will become more broadly upset by this criminal, unconstitutional, immoral, torture nonsense when they or their loved ones are subjected to waterboarding. What people in general are not getting is that if we can do it, ANYONE can. Since we are adding insult to injury and torturing people on suspicion of being a terra-ist, that means that any other country can now engage in similar torture on American citizens and soldiers on mere suspicion of wrongdoing.

When people start to see the actual, practical, and inevitable outcome of our going down this unacceptable road, then they will decide that it isn’t such a good idea afterall…ignoring the fact that the practical effects of this crap are a sad reason to come out against torture - the moral argument should be enough.

It is illegal.

First of all, our Administration behaves much more closely to that of Hitler than the “terrorists”. You need to go read Goebbels, etc. In fact, go read about the rise of Hitler and what they did to the laws….

There is nothing at all about Al Qaeda that remotely resembles the Nazis.

Thats kind of like saying public executions don’t work, when we know it does.

Which is why we no longer have murder and other capital crimes committed in this country. Yes, I see. Have you ever tried a fact-based argument, you know just as a change of pace?

1993?

Try 1953.

Mossadegh.

Monsters of our own making ever since.

But, but then you can’t point at the Iranians and call them barbaric for public executions.

If you stare into the abyss for too long, it begins to stare into you.

How soon before you begin to make the same arguments for dealing with domestic crime, Kurt. Oh wait, you just did.

Silly me.

-G

Kurt@132

Funny isn’t it how we managed to navigate THE most dangerous period in world history (the nuclear standoff between the Soviet Union and the West) without resorting to torture. Or how we managed to fight the single worst dictator in modern Western history (Hitler) without resorting to torture. Then come you people who are so damn afraid of a few rag-tag, poor, uneducated, brown people without an army, without 1000s of nuclear-tipped missiles, without millions of troops, and you want to immediately start torturing them to “save a single American life”. So…American lives are worth more than brown people’s lives? If it is between killing some random American (preferably white and xtian, no doubt) or some brown man, woman, or child - or “merely” torturing them, you choose to kill or torture the poor brown folk? Afterall, it is self-evident that Americans are more moral, more intrinsically valuable than ANYONE else regardless of what we do to provoke the brown people eh? It’s OK for us to trample all over their country, steal all their natural resources and wealth, impose OUR ways upon them but if they respond in any way that a NORMAL human would respond, their lives aren’t worth shit. That about it?

Torture is illegal. Torture is morally wrong. Torture, de facto and objectively, doesn’t work. American lives are no more valuable than any other human lives. Period. Quit with the self worship.

There were public executions of pickpockets until the early 1800’s in Britain. They were one of the most popular place to pick pockets. So much for the deterrance value.

Whole lot of garment rendering over rhetoric, dontcha think ?

Kurt: Hillary Clinton IS right in line with the other Democratic candidates.

The Right wingers say so

http://archive.newsmax.com/arc.....2502.shtml

As well as groups insisting that she take a stand (yet again) against torture

http://www.americanfreedomcamp.....sponse.pdf

Isreali has not spend 1.3 trillion on a terrorist network and never would. Isreal has in War destroyed its enemies overwhelmingly and has exercised restraint. Isreal has a right to defend itself from Terrorist just as the rest of the world does! The question: How much like my enemy must I become? It never enters the mind of the person seeking blinded vengence opposed to those seeking justified action to protect existence. I’m talking about America, not Isreal. America is not Isreal.

America is not Israel.

(9/11 changed everything)

http://www.commondreams.org/he.....019-05.htm
http://hnn.us/articles/1000.html

Repectfully, you are on the internet, use it. The first two listings on Google. I would beleive Common Dreams, the other sounds right.

Yes, while America staggered from the shock of 911 and subsequent(PTSD) the opportunists……. opportuned. Hope this next election works???

I didn’t know I was treading in racial waters when I wrote my post. To reply: I would condone torture to save a single American life regardless if that American is brown, white, black, yellow, purple, or have just migrated here from Mars and is now a legal citizen. I value all human life, but if you make the choice to act violently in a way that makes you a valuable source of information, you better be ready to go for a swim.

So you actually think no one was tortured during the Cold War? Are you kidding me? You can bet it happened and you can bet we did it to the Russians, just the same way they did it to us. Why do you think it is so critical that we keep our international operative’s names and Alias’s secret. If that information was know, they will be tortured in ways that would make water boarding look like a trip to the mall.

Ok, so you want to use the argument that we are trampling on Iraq for oil, fine. America is a country driven by the consumption of fossil fuels, and it is going to be a long time before that changes. If that oil is no longer available to us, what do you think is going to happen? Answer: This country will come to a grinding halt and you know it. The current member nations of OPEC do not have armies to protect the supply of oil (Saudi). If Sadam or Iran were to pull with the Saudi’s what happened in Kuwait, the reprocussions (even if for a short time) from that would not only affect the US, it would affect the whole globe.

Cinn,

You may have me on this one. I remember reading an article recently how Hillary is not in step with the others. I could very well be wrong on this one.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytim.....aterboard/

May I ask you a question? What was “minimum wage” and the cost of a gallon of gasoline, when you earned the privilege to “drive?”

What is this crap with “homeland” and “fatherland” that is as phony as bumper stickers on Chickenhawk SUVs. I never heard the terms aside from the Ibsen plays I read in school. Maybe they were in Strindberg.

But I’m damn sure before 911 there were enough synonyms to go around to describe the U.S. without resorting to “homeland.”

It’s context is right up there with the whole fear ethos, political construction of false boogie men to take your rights, and the insipidly stupid DHS color coding and the 125,000 or so and growing “No Fly” list with no explanation in a country that doesn’t check cargo shipped in or going on planes.

So you actually think no one was tortured during the Cold War? Are you kidding me? You can bet it happened and you can bet we did it to the Russians, just the same way they did it to us. Why do you think it is so critical that we keep our international operative’s names and Alias’s secret. If that information was know, they will be tortured in ways that would make water boarding look like a trip to the mall.

Golly. We’re blessed with the presence of a Cold War Double Naught Spy !!

Actually, it is more likely that most of the KGB and CIA field operatives knew each other on a first name basis.

Sheesh.

I don’t need to go back to the 1800’s, I can simply look at Saudi. This is for the whole nation:

http://www.nationmaster.com/co...../cri-crime

Jeeze, I think there is more crime like this in a single American city like Detroit and LA. Not sure what the population. Like the rape stat.

I seem to remember 2.75 for my first job, and $.59 a gallon. I could be a little off with the gas value…might have been $.49.

I think Kleiman is the type that will come back and say “but you didn’t specifically state that you wouldn’t use the sticking of scorpions all over the body as torture…thus you support torture”.

Hillary’s statement mirrors the Geneva Conventions definition of torture, and that is an inclusive definition. It includes waterboarding, stress positions, temperature extremes, etc. as it deals with issues of physical or psychological damage. Humiliation (such as compelling a woman to stand naked before a group of men) causes no physical damage, but it is outlawed by the GC.

There are thousands of different methods that are recognizeably torture…one doesn’t have to specify each one to oppose torture. That’s ludicrous.

It was (and is) illegal and prosecutable. Period. That is the way it has been and must remain. This IS a slippery slope.

By the way, I am currently in the USAF. I appreciate how you want me to be tortured.

Goose, gander, etc.

I’m not religious in any sense of the word but I am, by far, a better Xtian, Buddhist, Hindu, or what have you, than you are. I actually can see certain things as being intrinsically right or wrong (and on multiple levels) whereas you apparently don’t care about that sort of “nonsense” (so long as it is brown people on the receiving end, no doubt).

I would not torture anyone for any reason and, in fact, being in the military and armed when on duty, I would SHOOT anyone I caught doing it…even if they were our guys.

You make me sick.

Ya I am sure you are right, they knew each other on the first name basis. We spend countless billions on the security of this country so the spy’s can go get latte’s.

Kurt, I’m sorry, I have to set you straight.

“I didn’t know I was treading in racial waters when I wrote my post. To reply: I would condone torture to save a single American life regardless if that American is brown, white, black, yellow, purple, or have just migrated here from Mars and is now a legal citizen. I value all human life, but if you make the choice to act violently in a way that makes you a valuable source of information, you better be ready to go for a swim.”

Torture is illegal in the USA. Torture is illegal in the Geneva Conventions to which we are a party to.

“So you actually think no one was tortured during the Cold War? Are you kidding me? You can bet it happened and you can bet we did it to the Russians, just the same way they did it to us. Why do you think it is so critical that we keep our international operative’s names and Alias’s secret. If that information was know, they will be tortured in ways that would make water boarding look like a trip to the mall.”

Torture is illegal in the USA. Torture is illegal in the Geneva Conventions to which we are a party to.

“Ok, so you want to use the argument that we are trampling on Iraq for oil, fine. America is a country driven by the consumption of fossil fuels, and it is going to be a long time before that changes. If that oil is no longer available to us, what do you think is going to happen? Answer: This country will come to a grinding halt and you know it. The current member nations of OPEC do not have armies to protect the supply of oil (Saudi). If Sadam or Iran were to pull with the Saudi’s what happened in Kuwait, the reprocussions (even if for a short time) from that would not only affect the US, it would affect the whole globe.”

Invading and occupying sovereign nations who have not attacked us is illegal. Stealing their oil is illegal. Lying to the citizens of the United States by the President and Vice President, who have taken oaths to defend the Constitution, in order to send troops into harms way so that war is waged upon them, is illegal. Even for oil!!

……..gone over the Green Monster for a Grand Slam!!!

Sonny, you have the historical perspective [edited by moderator to remove personal reference].

The Soviet was gasping for air in the 70’s. Once Raygun arrived, Casey and his hacks were instructed to inflate the threat.

John Lehman’s 700 ship navy is now in your Gillette Mach III Turbo.

The first paragraph is courtesy Kurt (not mine).

My son is a Scout with the First Cavalry. I don’t think we disagree here.

I was amused by the comment that DNI Mike McConnell made concerning FISA:

In a significant number of these cases, FISA required us to obtain a court order. This requirement slowed — and sometimes prevented — our ability to collect timely foreign intelligence.

Kind of interesting that for 20+ years, no one had the slightest difficulty following FISA, then we get a President who treats the Constitution like something he found on the bottom of his shoe after a long hike and…wow! Gee! Amazingly enough, FISA all of the sudden becomes this backbreakingly difficult law to follow! Amazing how that happens!

Ha! You are using Saudi Arabia as a model for how the American Justice system should work? SHARIA LAW?
This is the society that gave the guys that gang-raped the gal who was having sex with her fiancee sentences of four years…halved for good behavior. Oh, I think the judge called their crime “humiliation”….not rape. And she got 20 lashes and a year in jail…increased to 400 lashes when she complained about it!

This is the land where they cut off a hand for theft. And the murder rate is so low because much of the time they decide that there isn’t a murder because it was done in an act of justifiable family vengeance. Killing in the name of family pride and honor (for example a daughter who is in an unsanctioned affair) isn’t murder.

And look just how much radical extremism has reduced from the public executions of the rebels that took over the Grand Mosque in Mecca back in the 1980’s. That, more than any other incident, fueled bin Laden’s hate of the Royal Family and those that propped them up. Al Qaida has not been deterred at al by public executions, in fact, the regime doesn’t do them anymore because they now realize that such acts generate martyrs. It backfires.

What is your point with this?

Also, can you guys posting just put the facts as you see them out there? This isn’t personal, and there is no need to call Reagan, Raygun. You make whatever arguments you have less credible to any random viewers when you do that.

What’s the penalty for defacing the Ronnie Shrine ?

[edited by mod to remove reference to violence]

Where is Vlad the Impaler, when you need him???

Ya I am sure you are right, they knew each other on the first name basis. We spend countless billions on the security of this country so the spy’s can go get latte’s

Actually many did know each other. They knew who were spies with diplomatic cover. That’s why the Soviet mission had to obtain special permission to travel more than 5 miles outside Washington, D.C.

And when you saw certain individuals expelled as “protest” it was almost identifiable spies. Then there was a counter-expelling of the other nations spies.

Nothing personal Kurt. There really isn’t an argument to be made for torture, because it is illegal. We are a country of laws. It doesn’t matter what you “think” is okay, or what I “think” is okay, because it is against the law and the treaties the United States is a party to. Unless those laws change, or we withdraw from the Geneva Conventions, it is what it is. It is against the law for the government to violate treaties. Torture is Illegal.

You are correct with this. I know there were some “games’ that were played between the White House and the local Russian embassy in the 60’s and 70’s. Probably happened a lot, and no doubt is still happening.

To rephrase, I would say in general, the spy’s out in the field didn’t know who each other were.

My apologies then. I am not used to the new system here yet (that is my defense and I will stick with it). Just take what I wrote and plaster it all over this Kurt creature.

He’s all for torture…until it is he himself, or his sister, brother, mother, father, etc, on the receiving end for “suspicion of doing something” when it comes time for them to be waterboarded in a foreign country.

See Kurt, get this into your GOP skull. If WE can torture, ANYONE can torture and when anyone else does torture, there is no longer anything we can do about it. We cannot scream about it being illegal or immoral or unacceptable in civilized societies, blah blah. ANY country based on ANY mere suspicion of “wrongdoing” is now free to waterboard anyone and everyone (including you, your sis, brother, etc) and there can be no complaining from you or the US government. Since you are totally bereft of any moral center, take that into your practical, every-day-living center and accept the reality that what goes around comes around. Literally.

Withdrawing from the Geneva Conventions would end the illegality of torture. The UN Conventions on Torture, Abuse, and Inhumane Treatment (to which we are a signatory) is even stricter on matters of prisoner treatment and it applies across the board. There is no “illegal combatant” or “POW” or other such catagories. Torture, abuse, and inhumane treatment are illegal, always and in all circumstances.

Kurt…so you would be fully in support of a bill that would exonerate (and apologize to) the Japanese men the US prosecuted explicitly because they waterboarded prisoners in World War II yes? If it is OK to do it now, it was certainly OK to do it then. If it is OK for the US to waterboard, then it most assuredly is OK for ANY country to do it. You MUST call for a bill exonerating those we’ve prosecuted for torture (waterboarding) or you would be just another Republican (or member of the Democrapic leadership): a goddamned hypocrite.

Just making sure you know, I was not suggesting withdrawal…

Good comment!

Praedor,

There was a little more to it than just waterboarding. The Japanese did things with Bamboo that I don’t even like to think about. They treated the Phillipino’s in ways that the resentment still resonates to this day. Your argument is not accurate, so I will skip the yes/no answer.

You seem to be very passionate about your beliefs, and even agree with your assessment relating to torture. This would apply in a perfect world, but in a perfect world, we would not have war, or a military in the first place.

Assuming you are USAF as stated, you probably hear jokes of pilots going down in places they are not supposed to be. I bet the stories conclude with them not being treated too well. For me, I spent 6 years in the navy, 3 of which was as a corpsman with the Marines. During this time, I didn’t wear any medical insignia during combat drills/operations. Why? We would be the first target enemy snipers would be gunning for. I don’t need to tell you what would happen if I was taken prisoner. Why am I telling you this? The Geneva Convention protects medical personnel against targeting as described above, and how they are to be treated if taken prisoner.

By the way, I don’t allign myself with the GOP as assumed.

Anyway, been fun everyone. See you at the next “saucy” posting :]

Rather that go OT on the corrent thread - aw, gee, Scooter didn’t get a pardon for Hannukah - I’ll put this here.

CNN.com is currently asking if waterboarding is ever justified. Current score: 54% yes.

1)Torture is never justified. 2)Waterboarding is torture.
Therefore, waterboarding is never justified.

If you care to debate point one (1), you are a sadistic sociopath. If you care to debate point two (2), you’re clueless and need to be educated.