mornin’, BT

Great points BT. Never thought I would live to see a day when the GOP would be advocating torture to protect Americans. What a travesty. Isn’t this how fascism starts? Anything and Everything is acceptable in the name of protecting American lives. Wow. I now know why it is called wingnuttery.

But Jack Bauer can do it & it works. Yep, love em some Hollywood types.

Blue Texan writes:

think the ‘08 RNC just found their slogan: “By any means necessary.”

Or maybe some variant of “Laws? We doan need no steenkin’ laws!”

OT
Sen. Cardin on C-SPAN3 seems not to know how to pronounce Guantanamo. Comes out something like Gwatamino. As grating as nucular.

shoulda heard tough guy joe scarborough this morning talk with such authority about all the comfort those thoughts of drowning a bound man does for him. joe’s such a manly man, you know.

The very, very sad fact is not only is it unlawfull, imoral, unethical, UNCHRISTIAN, and unconstitutional IT. DOES. NOT. WORK.

Last night, Arianna was squared off against Cliff May (don’t really know much about him, other than that he’s loud and rude). His take on waterboarding - “If a guy has information that could help us, sure I’m willing to provide him with an uncomfortable afternoon“.

So maybe that’s the new meme. Reduce “torture” solely to the act of waterboarding, done one time only, and completely in the absence of any other torture techniques. This is a dangerous new tactic, imo, and is probably sell-able to John Q. Public.

One. Single. Bad. Afternoon.

Where are the big guns, the megaphones, the screaming from the rooftop opposition to come from?

“I vas only following orders”

Torture works just fine. The point is to get the prisoner to tell you what you want to hear. For example, without torture, al-Libi would never have confirmed the close link between Saddam Hussein & al Qaeda.

here’s what people that say “we get information” don’t add;

the information you get is at the expense of even more information you would have gotten if you used the alternative methods of persuasion

this is up right now at think progress;

Zubaydah was waterboarded, but defended those actions as having prevented “maybe dozens” of planned attacks and “probably saved lives.”

see that?…”probably saved lives”…does he have any idea how many MORE lives would have “probably been saved” if they used the methods of persuasion?

not, he then goes on to say;

“We don’t need enhanced techniques to get that nugget of information,”

and that information is more valuable, more acurate, more actionable

in any event, the lead over at think progress is this stunning quote;

Former CIA Interrogator: We Carried Out Torture Because The White House Told Us To

Torture, as you say:

DOES. NOT. WORK.

Here’s the problem, though. They justify it by saying that dozens of attacks have been prevented. And since they say that over and over and over…. too many people buy that as true.

Indeed, if you want to justify torture… then waterboard someone, and get them to admit to knowing about “dozens” of coming attacks. PRESTO! Just like that… you’ve proved your point!

Exactly. World War II vets have spoken out condeming waterboarding’s controlled drowning as ineffective. Now we have the CIA guy saying yeah, it’s torture, but it’s okay.

Interesting that he’s coming out right now to “legitimize” torture…nice clean cut boy like that? Why he’s one of us…he couldn’t be doing anything, you know, bad….

The thing about Jack Bauer is: 1. he’s a FICTIONAL CHARACTER [sorry, had to penetrate the kool-aid crowd’s reality-deadening earmuffs. and 2. Even the fictional character PAYS CONSEQUENCES.

Be a man, Bushie…come out and say you authorized it and face the accountability of your “legacy.” The truth will set you free.

So which Zubayda does Kiriakou think he’s tortured? Posner’s who incrimated Saudi royal family, or Suskind’s who was a low level mentally ill driver? Enquiring minds want to know.
http://www.boomantribune.com/s.....192315/477

You of course are correct because of my pathetic writing ability. My point is that it does not produce accurate information. Someone being tortured will say anything to make it stop. When I was military, training in the Geneva Convention, what to do with POW’s, how to act if captured all were covered extensively. We were taught that some of the most severe punishments provided for by the UCMJ were reserved for those convicted of violating a prisoner.

And Malcolm X rolls over in his grave.

Again.

BTW, so much for destroying the torture tapes to protect identity of torturer, who has now outed himself.

I’m so glad that I’m not the only person who saw that slight of hand this morning. “Yes, it was torture, but it broke him in 35 seconds, and then he gave us lots and lots of information.” Right. And no one points out that the “information” was of unknown value, and probably mostly whatever he thought the interrogators wanted to hear.

And also, what slipped past without comment, is that abu Z. had been subjected to a month of isolation and shock before the waterboarding “broke” him. A regressed schizophrenic, subjected to torture, is going to say anything.

Why yes, I am reading Naomi Klein’s book right now. Everyone should.

I actually wasn’t trying to cast aspersions on your writing ability, but rather to make the point of what the purpose of torture actually is. If you don’t realize that people are tortured precisely to obtain the kind of false information that the torturer wants to hear, then you will spend a lot of time & energy spinning your wheels.

Posner’s - or Suskind’s?

I think it’s worth bearing in mind that Posner believes he’s written the definitive book “proving” that Oswald acted only in the JFK assassination.

IOW, he’s nuckin’ futs.

Kiriakou tried his best to do the “ticking time bomb” scenario, all the way down to claiming that a partially assembled bomb was on the table in the house where he was arrested.

Brian Ross did virtually nothing to challenge Kiriakou in the interview, although he did probe a little further on the claims of disrupted attacks, to the point that Kiriakou did have to admit that none of the attacks disrupted were planned for the US.

To me, the whole interview was nothing but staged propaganda.

I think it’s worth bearing in mind that Posner believes he’s written the definitive book “proving” that Oswald acted only in the JFK assassination.

Have you read the book? It’s very good.

Jack Bauer (aka Kiefer Sutherland) is in jail now for drunk driving.

Heh, some super hero role model.

I’ve pretty much made up my mind between the two. Suskind seems on pretty solid ground in all kinds of areas. But they’ve destroyed the tapes (or at least that’s what they say), so we can’t know for sure. Which also leaves Kiriakou free to make any claim he wants.

Is there a link? I’ve read reports of the interview but haven’t actually seen it myself.

The very, very sad fact is not only is it unlawfull, imoral, unethical, UNCHRISTIAN, and unconstitutional IT. DOES. NOT. WORK.

I believe that the reason that the former agent, John Kiriakou, a leader of the team that captured Zubaydah, came forward was to deliver the message that waterboarding does work. I think he’s the same guy that said that he did not see the technique as torture then, but he does now, but he still thinks it’s necessary.

I don’t see it as necessary, mind you, or as effective as they’re trying to say it is. This time it supposedly broke the subject in 35 seconds, and I’m assuming all the information that they collected from him afterwards checked out. But I don’t know why, once the enemy realizes they are likely to be tortured if caught, the enemy doesn’t make up stories to tell their tormentors to send them on wild goose chases or running up blind alleys, or into traps. This cannot be that hard to figure out for people who are willing to do suicide bombings.

BT is speaking of John Kiriakou’s interview by Brian Ross of ABC news:

- video and article: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/.....038;page=1

- transcript: http://abcnews.go.com/images/B.....071210.pdf

The only way you can claim that torture itself prevented an attack is if you acquire “actionable intelligence”, i.e. confession leads directly to locating others involved or hidden materials intended for use in an attack. Otherwise, it is the very act of apprehension and detention alone that prevents the “ideas” of subsequent attacks from occurring. I am not aware of an example of actionable information being obtained that directly led to a specific outside intervention.

It’s posted at http://abcnews.go.com/blotter. They cut the interview into about 10 pieces interspersed with commercials, but it’s worth watching. Kiriakou is quite polished, but to me seemed to just be full of BS.

Just one more indication that our education system turns people into reliable bricks in the wall, rather than critical thinkers.

The GWOT is not a pimple on the ass of WWII or the Cold War (when the USSR had tens of thousands of nukes pointed our way). America managed to get thru these real tests, Constitution intact.

Bush used 9/11 as a stalking horse to get what the powers-that-be really want - a reversal of the New Deal and back to the Robber Baron Era. Total control.

Damned if they aren’t within a whisker of getting it.

and I’m assuming all the information that they collected from him afterwards checked out.

Wow, that’s a HUGE assumption, imo…

Exactly right. When suspect witches were tortured they confessed to violating the laws of physics. 99 out of 100 people would do the same. Still, it shouldn’t matter whether torture “works” or not. It’s wrong and it would still be wrong if it produced true and useful information.

Now we know why NPR’s execrable “This I Believe” had a lovely, saintly, former Gitmo “interrogator” on last weekend telling us about the “civilized lifestyle” she experienced there. NPR Check has the goods.

This is a dangerous new tactic, imo, and is probably sell-able to John Q. Public.

One. Single. Bad. Afternoon.

First, do you think they’ll knock some time off the sentence in the Hague because of our policy of limiting torture to One. Single. Bad. Afternoon?

Actually, I don’t think this is a new tactic at all. I read somewhere that a form of this technique was used during the inquisition.

This is a good illustration of the flood of “ideas” that were divulged by Khalid Sheik Mohammed after being tortured. He simply claims credit for everything under the sun though none of it is actionable. Him being in jail was by far the most important determinant.

True Confessions? The Amazing Tale of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed:

Excellent point. Guess they didn’t need be destroyed anyway since the CIA operative in charge of waterboarding is on CNN.

While watching Feinstein’s hearings I’ve sussed out another requirement for Boo$h Administration legal flunkies: must have totally annoying voice. Steven Engel can give Brad Schlossman a run for his money. Odious to the max!

WWJD?

What Would JackBauer Do?

Cliff May is a very accomplished neocon propagandist, one of their best. His pitch last night was a minor variant of the ticking-time-bomb meme. The bottom line is that, regardless of its effectiveness or lack thereof, waterboarding is simulated execution which is defined to be torture by international treaties that the U.S. Senate has ratified, making them the law of the land under Article VI of the U.S. Constitution:

This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

retry-

True Confessions? The Amazing Tale of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed:

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/for.....shaikh.php

America is terminally ill.

Another terrorist attack the nation will scream for Bush to ‘take off the gloves’.

The ball is on the tee, ready to be knocked into the field.

-G

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/.....mo-haynes/

ThinkProgress has another great story. Morris Davis prosecutor at Gitmo was removed for not supporting Torture. This is another direct link to Torture and Darth Cheney, assuming we needed another.

I had instructed the prosecutors in September 2005 that we would not offer any evidence derived by waterboarding

When originally asked why he was stepping down, Davis said that the Pentagon had ordered him “not to communicate with the news media about my resignation or military commissions.”

For a dose of perspective on torture, let’s check in with George Washington:

“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.”
– George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

Well, now I’m once again confused. I have heard alternately that the guy that came forward was the torturer, and that he (Kiriakou) was not the torturer, but was present at the capture of Zubaydah .

Listening now. He was NOT the torturer, he was the capturer. Will have some comments after I’ve listened to the whole thing.

There’s a lot more we need to know about Kiriakou’s “confession”. Kiriakou has apparently been, unlike Valerie Plame, allowed to state where he was serving between 1998-2004. Yes, he was serving in Afghanistan (according to his writings in the NY Times and elsewhere) between those dates. Even while the Taliban were the established government Kiriakou was somewhere in the country.

Then, after 9/11 and the US invasion, Abu Zubaydah is snatched up in Pakistan and apparently flown to Thailand for interrogation. Kiriakou asserts that he is there, at the interrogation and torture. Perhaps he’s the only reliable Arabic translator available? It’s all a bit strange that they would pull a field officer in Afghanistan out to participate in the interrogation.

And I found this very interesting statement by Bush about Abu Zubaydah and what he revealed, both before, and after torture.

After he recovered, Zubaydah was defiant and evasive. He declared his hatred of America. During questioning, he at first disclosed what he thought was nominal information — and then stopped all cooperation. Well, in fact, the “nominal” information he gave us turned out to be quite important. For example, Zubaydah disclosed Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — or KSM — was the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, and used the alias “Muktar.” This was a vital piece of the puzzle that helped our intelligence community pursue KSM. Abu Zubaydah also provided information that helped stop a terrorist attack being planned for inside the United States — an attack about which we had no previous information. Zubaydah told us that al Qaeda operatives were planning to launch an attack in the U.S., and provided physical descriptions of the operatives and information on their general location. Based on the information he provided, the operatives were detained — one while traveling to the United States.
We knew that Zubaydah had more information that could save innocent lives, but he stopped talking. As his questioning proceeded, it became clear that he had received training on how to resist interrogation. And so the CIA used an alternative set of procedures. These procedures were designed to be safe, to comply with our laws, our Constitution, and our treaty obligations. The Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively and determined them to be lawful. I cannot describe the specific methods used — I think you understand why — if I did, it would help the terrorists learn how to resist questioning, and to keep information from us that we need to prevent new attacks on our country. But I can say the procedures were tough, and they were safe, and lawful, and necessary.
Zubaydah was questioned using these procedures, and soon he began to provide information on key al Qaeda operatives, including information that helped us find and capture more of those responsible for the attacks on September the 11th. For example, Zubaydah identified one of KSM’s accomplices in the 9/11 attacks — a terrorist named Ramzi bin al Shibh. The information Zubaydah provided helped lead to the capture of bin al Shibh. And together these two terrorists provided information that helped in the planning and execution of the operation that captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.[6]
[edit]

First off, the detail that is used by Bush makes me think…did he see the videos?

Secondly, this scenario is very different from the one suggested by Kiriakou. Almost all the evidence relating to capturing KSM, information about a planned attack and even the location and descriptions of those who were involved…ALL WITHOUT TORTURE. So it’s not at all certain that Zubaydah wouldn’t have revealed more without torture. But we don’t know what triggered the “shut down”. Perhaps it was something that reflected the change in attitude by the interrogators themselves. Perhaps they finally got clearance to torture and decided to use it anyways.

Maybe this is why people like Kappes and Rogier opposed the new “torture regime”?

Off on the business of the Queen. See everyone later.

Either we were wrong to prosecute Japanese for waterboarding in WWII, or we are wrong now. I would like someone to ask each of the presidential candidates which it is.

If waterboarding while engaging in a global war is suddenly ok, then the US owes an apology to the families of the Japanese men prosecuted as war criminals for doing it.

Ann,

In the interview, Kirakou states that he was present at the arrest and took part in many interviews with Zubaydah. He also stated that he was given the opportunity to take the training for “enhanced interrogation techniques” but chose not to. His reports of the waterboarding were second hand, based on CIA cables he read.

BTW, he said he underwent waterboarding himself and lasted only five seconds. By lasting 35 seconds, Zubaydah was seen as quite tough.

With all the revelations regarding the crimes of Bushco over the last week makes me fear war with Iran is closer than ever.

A conflict with Iran that kills thousands of US soldiers will mean we will have to retaliate. Can the American people be fooled into rallying around the administration for a new war?

I’m afraid I know the answer…

Here’s hoping that (former Navy Seal) Malcom Nance is going to speak to this issue again…

From AP:

[W]aterboarding of Abu Zubaydah got him to talk in less than 35 seconds. The technique, which critics say is torture, probably disrupted ”dozens” of planned al-Qaida attacks, said John Kiriakou, a leader of the team that captured Zubaydah, a major al-Qaida figure.

Kiriakou did not explain how he knew who approved the interrogation technique but said such approval comes from top officials.

”This isn’t something done willy nilly. This isn’t something where an agency officer just wakes up in the morning and decides he’s going to carry out an enhanced technique on a prisoner,” he said Tuesday on NBC’s ”Today” show. ”This was a policy made at the White House, with concurrence from the National Security Council and Justice Department.”

We have always been at war with Al Qaeda.

-G

We created Al Qaeda.

We have always been at war with the mujahaddin.

-G

This administration makes me crazy! I have to snicker because I am actually toying with the idea that, what if Kiriakou is a plant to distract us from Posner’s POV because they don’t want us to entertain the notion that the Saudi’s had anything to do with questioning Zubaydah.

It seems to me that the Repukes have become the Nazi party, and they don’t even realize it. I smell war crimes…that is what the Admin is afraid of.

In my opinion, the answer is very simple.

Prez Bush and many folks believe that waterboarding and torture is
justified.
If they believe this, then so state and declare.
The problem is that they don’t have the balls to say it in public.
They are fucking cowards and a disgrace to this nation
They hide behind legal decisions…
I’m afraid we have to take it to the streets.

Right.

Crossed my mind too.

Bush is clearly a war criminal.

-G

FWIW, the following is from Brian Ross’s interview of John Kiriakou on ABC:

JOHN:
Water boarding was one of the techniques, yes.
[…]
He resisted. He was able to withstand the water boarding for quite some time. And by that I mean probably 30, 35 seconds–
BRIAN ROSS:
That’s quite some time.
Intv John Kiriakou ABC (tape1).doc
MEDIA ID: TAPE #1 Pg.17
JOHN:
–which was quite some time. And a short time afterwards, in the next day or so, he told his interrogator that Allah had visit him in his cell during the night and told him to cooperate because his cooperation would make it easier on the other brothers who had been captured. And from that day on he answered every question just like I’m sitting here speaking to you.
BRIAN ROSS:
And a willing way?
JOHN:
In a willing way.
BRIAN ROSS:
So in your view the water boarding broke him.
JOHN:
I think it did, yes.
BRIAN ROSS:
And did it make a difference in terms of–
JOHN:
It did. The threat information that he provided disrupted a number of attacks, maybe dozens of
Intv John Kiriakou ABC (tape1).doc
MEDIA ID: TAPE #1 Pg.18
attacks.
BRIAN ROSS:
No doubt about that? That’s not some–
JOHN:
No doubt.
BRIAN ROSS:
–hype?
JOHN:
No, no question. No question. The reporting– I remember reading the reporting, and it was dramatic when it first started coming in. Now, of course, a lot of that was time-sensitive. So after a period of time he wasn’t to– to provide any real actionable information, any information that you could use to disrupt an attack.
But what he was able to provide was information on the al Qaeda leadership. For example– if bin Laden were to do X– who would be the person to undertake such a– such an operation? “Oh, logically that would be Mr. Y.” And we were able to use that information to kind of get an idea of
Intv John Kiriakou ABC (tape1).doc
MEDIA ID: TAPE #1 Pg.19
how al Qaeda operated, how it came about conceptualizing its operations, and– and how it went about tasking different cells with carrying out operations.
BRIAN ROSS:
And in terms of the actual planned future attacks?
JOHN:
Yeah, we disrupted a lot of them.

Durbin is asking what happened to the 400 plus people that “took a little tour through Guantanamo”…..exactly…

“How many picked off the battlefield?” “21 out of 775…only 1 captured on the battlefield”

I wonder if they are even alive.

Gitmo hearings live now on C-Span 3

Steven Engel, Office of Legal Counsel being questioned by Durbin
Brig. Gen. Thomas Hartmann, Military Commissions Office, being questioned by L. Graham

That proposed RNC ‘08 slogan is very similar to Doonesbury’s 2000 Reform Party presidential candidate slogan: Whatever It Takes. However, it’s hard to decide which Republic is most like Uncle Duke.

and I’m assuming all the information that they collected from him afterwards checked out.

Wow, that’s a HUGE assumption, imo…

Well, I’m only assuming that for the sake of argument; not in the real world.

The only issue is if the Bush family is making as much money off of the Republic Party now as they made off of the Nazi Party then.

Reducing torture to an “uncomfortable afternoon” proves once and for all, ski boots are torture.

Right. And, torture need not be physically uncomfortable. Putting a person before a firing squad that has only blanks is “simulated execution” and therefore “torture.”

W was taught by experts. They are making more money now. Crime pays in his family. They have no morals or values or ethics. Bush is not religious. Bush comes from a fascist family. He is running a fascist government. His party is a fascist party. He is not a Republican, he is a fascist. Republicans think they are Republicans….some are…the one’s that agree with W are fascist, and they have and are committing war crimes.

Hey, if having an odd and annoying voice is a current qualification, I have an ex-husband somewhere in Indiana that they can have. Maybe they could use him to practice their torture techniques!

Whether torture “worked” in this case is the issue in this Kevin Drum post.

It is possible that some have actually been executed. There is no proof that the 400 plus that are no longer in Gitmo are alive.

Heck, if that’s the qualification for torture, they should just pipe in a bunch of Hillary’s speeches to the detainees. That would, most assuredly, be torture.

Guess the MSM does not consider Waterboarding torture. From the AP’s latest article:

“Waterboarding is a harsh interrogation technique that involves strapping down a prisoner, covering his mouth with plastic or cloth and pouring water over his face. The prisoner quickly begins to inhale water, causing the sensation of drowning”.

I wonder if the AP writer Pamela Hess knows that waterboarding has been considered torture since the Spanish Inquisition? It has now become a “Harsh” interrogation technique according to her. Wow.

How do we know that the black sites are not concentration camps such as those used by the Nazis? How do we know?

The administration is behaving exactly the same was as the Hitler administration.

From AP:

Filed at 11:08 a.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) — Attorney General Michael Mukasey is to meet the press publicly for the first time Tuesday with a decidedly tense topic on the agenda: the CIA’s destruction of videotapes of terror suspect interrogations.

From No Quarter, it appears that they are lying about destroying the tapes.
http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2.....ure-tapes/

“way”

Feinstein bringing up “undeclared state of war”….

You can never detroy evil. It IS. But we can manage it by reducing its power when it rears its ugly head to established positions of power - President. Evil doesn’t play fair. Does evil ever appoint Mr. Nice Guy - never. It appoints a reflection of himself. Hitler and the Bush line reflects each other. Expect nothing more of the shrub line.

What a way to start a morning! And this is after a good night’s sleep.

Hi Scarecrow. Thank you. That’s exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Perhaps it’s like this:

Torture is bad
Only bad people do bad things
We are good people
Therefore, it isn’t torture.

Second Gitmo panel up on C-Span 3

Mark Denbeaux, Seton Hall Law School Professor speaking

representative from military and another from 9-11 families

So do I. His voice is really torture to the ears. I can volunteer him. I think that’s why I wore headphones throughout most of my marriage.

The standard BushCo line has been in essence: “We don’t torture, and besides we had to.”

Shudder….shiver…shudder. Thank Goddess that we have the net, because evil is being exposed…by the minute it seems…

Great, maybe the reporters can ask him if he will release info
on Plame to Waxman

If I’m following Denbeaux correctly, only one person at Gitmo was picked up by American forces on the battlefield. All others were brought in by other military or by bounties. Can that be right?

Yes.

So I have listened to the entire interview. There’s something very odd about the whole thing. Let me try to articulate a few of them.

BTW, Kiriakou (let’s call him K) was in on the capture and initial questioning of AZ, but not on the torture part.

1. As cinnamonape mentions, Kiriakou has apparently been authorized by the CIA to speak, as that is required for all ex employees. And he speaks fully, hiding only the location where AZ was taken. So you may be sure that CIA has strong motives for wanting this information out & is using Kiriakou to do it.
2. K is extremely articulate & his dimeanor is pitch perfect. Almost like he was recruited from central casting.
3. K claims that the were about to double check everything that AZ said, after AZ broke, and that it all checked out. That AZ never lied, never exaggerated. To me, that statement doesn’t pass the human being test. I’ve never known any human who is that consistent, even when they’re trying to be. Note also that if they were able to double check everything from other sources, it undercuts the arguement that AZ had critical information.
4. The most suspicious line in the whole interview was when K said “They hate us more than they love life.” Seems to me I’ve seen that talking point somewhere before.

I have a pretty good intuition about bad guys & K stinks in my opinion. If I’m right, then we need to figure out what game he’s playing & for whom.

I almost wish you hadn’t brought that up.

Considering the influence of Perle (distantly) and Feith/Wolfowitz (functionally), it must have been some twisted, sweet revenge to be able to cart off Muslims to the “sticks” of Eastern Europe.

The same places where the Wansee Conference considered for their relatives some 60 years ago.

errrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Denbeaux: people keep saying 30 people were released by Gitmo and returned to battle. But only 3 did. The rest include 5 people who made a video about their experience; the Chinese Uigers; and [egr personal favorite] 2 people who were never in Gitmo to begin with.

He gave the disposition of all 27 but these are the ones that stand out as the most surprising. Is making a video now equivalent to ”returning to battle”?

Bounties are good. It’s solid capitalism. If you make money by it than it must be OK. Notice how we always treat slavery like it came out of a vacuum? We never call it capitalism in its purest form. It doesn’t matter how you make money; it is just good to make money.

Now up at Gitmo hearings

Rear Admiral John Hutson, President
Franklin Pierce Law Center

Says he initially favored military commissions but “for too long.”
We can close Gitmo, let’s not pretend we can’t.
“We need to make a change. The time is long since past.”
“We ought to demonstrate to the world what the United States stands for”

If you listen to their constant justification for everything….”They are Islamicfascists and they want to kill us all”…”We can’t wait for them to kill us first”….etc., so logic has it that they are telegraphing exactly how they plan to deal with “those people who are evil and want to kill us”…

Look at the behavior…the torture…the kidnapping…the renditions…the outsourcing…the fanaticism of the neocons…

I’m tellin’ ya…the world has been through this before, and the older people recognize it.

Yep, I had virtually the same response to the interview. I have long held that if any of these activities had actually resulted in a real intervention to prevent a real attack, every possible bit of information about it (and the glorious heroes involved) would have been splattered into the media in nanoseconds. That these claims come out now, and in such unverifiable fashion, to me says that K is involved only in “after the fact” justification. At best, I would guess that his capture disrupted a local attack or two in Pakistan where AZ was holed up.

As far as I am concerned, when our people over in Iraq stop coming back beheaded and with signs of obvious torture/dismemberment, I will start to consider stopping water boarding, or other forms of “torture”. Until then, water boarding will be the least of insurgents worries.

Loved some of the responses in the article listed in the original article:

http://www.julescrittenden.com.....rboarding/

Older in my case being 52. (g)

It was quite a performance, though, wasn’t it? I was imagining all the rehersals they must have put K through to get it just right.

Think I’ll google him & see what he is doing now.

Well, uhhhh, at this point, years after the fact. Does it just go away? Swish!

Older as in Europeans who are still alive now, but lived through the Nazi era. Older than you (or me *G*)!!!

Debra Burlingame up

National Sept. 11 Memorial Foundation, Board of DIrectors member
Her brother was one of the pilots killed on 9-11.

Hope other people will tune into C-Span 3 and help get this testimony out there.

Yeah. We need to get the transcript and quote from it.

Mrs. Burlingame makes the right argument. I wonder if the folks here will cover it with the same loving kindness as the others. You do ANYTHING you have to do to catch the Islamo-Fascists who are the REAL enemy of civilized people everywhere.

One thing to consider…those who were beheading people…we don’t really know who they were/are..Death squads began after the invasion..after Negroponte was there and started the El Salvador program…

I agree. Something about that interview doesn’t pass the smell test. (And my suspicions are based on something more than my wish to believe in the ineffectiveness of torture.)