Courtesy of Peter Beinart, Tim Russert, and David Brooks, it looks like we have a new concern troll meme for 2008: Don’t Mention The War. It’s old news, you see – people are tired of talking about it, and besides The Surge is totally working! Brooks even claims that America is now in a "postwar" mindset despite, well, the pesky little fact that WE’RE STILL AT WAR.
Shockingly, 36% of Americans haven’t gotten the memo, and foolishly insist that the all-over-but-the-shooting war in Iraq is the #1 issue that they’ll consider in choosing a president. The economy comes in a distant second at 16%, despite the always-insightful Timmeh’s proclamation that 2008 will be a "lunch pail" election. (Timmeh’s a blue-collar man of the people, he’s attuned to such things.)
Worse yet for Republicans, it doesn’t sound like a pretend-the-war-is-already-over strategy is going to be viable for very much longer:
A couple of days ago I wrote about how the new Bush-Maliki deal might undermine any gains we have made on the security front in Iraq over the last three months. This deal gave Bush an "enduring" presence in the form of bases on top of Iraqi oil fields and it gave Maliki protection from all other Iraqi factions. I thought this might irritate some other folks in Iraq, to say the least. And it has.
His name is Moqtada al-Sadr. And one day he is going to come for Iraq….
(…)
Now that Bush and Maliki have made their intentions clear and Sadr has had three months off to recoup and consolidate his power, he is almost ready for battle. Hence, the war cry from last week and the Mahdi Army (Sadr’s army) now walking around the streets in martyr’s white. They’re coming. Not if, but when. They’re coming.
Anyone who thinks Sadr is going to let Bush and Maliki run Iraq and be satisfied with crumbs off their table doesn’t know Sadr at all…. What happens when the insurgency picks up intensity again? What happens when the Mahdi Army rejoins the battle?
…I just hope we’re not underestimating them. I also hope we’re not basking in the glow of the surge’s fake success. The violence has gone down in Iraq, but it’s not because we have more troops there. It’s because the Sunnis and the Mahdi Army have stopped fighting us … for now. But what happens when they come for us again? Are we ready?
How are the Republicans going to play off Iraq as yesterday’s news when our troops are in an all-out war with the Mahdi Army?
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Eli!
Eli!
Hello, Eli.
OT
Ready for some holiday spirit for the politically minded? This will make you laugh. It’s a takeoff on the traditional German Nutcracker (Nussknacker).
Hi guys!
“How are the Republicans going to play off Iraq as yesterday’s news when our troops are in an all-out war with the Mahdi Army?”
They will blame it on the antiwar Democrats for giving encouragement to the enemy.
They can try… but they’ll still be talking about the war.
Sadr is watching the election timing here very closely.
BushCo behaves as if the Iraqis are stupid. They don’t care to learn anything about either the Iraqi people or the American people.
Don’t forget, we are going to start drawing down troops soon, as their 15 month tours end, and we don’t have enough to keep up this strength. They’ll be hitting us as we get weaker.
I’m wondering whether Sadr’s going to wait until Teh Surge is scheduled to end this summer. But if they’re wearing martyr’s white, that kinda suggests that something is imminent.
On Dan Abrams, ex-CIA agent who waterboarded said when considering going public with the waterboarding story, he expected he would be “trashed in the blogs, and I understand I am being trashed in the blogs.”
He also says he thinks Bush made the ultimate decision to approve waterboarding in each case. There was a process in place, and the president was at the top of it.
When does the six month al-Sadr cease fire expire? IIRC, open warfare with the Mahdi Army was Steve Gilliard’s endgame for the US in Iraq.
How do you think he could use that election to his advantage?
Smellin like Khe Sahn before Tet is it?
OfT sorry: the ubiquitous CIA waterboarding ‘whistle blower’ is on Abrams – says that the prez gave the final ok on the use of the tactic.
Repub counter-talker says that Bush Sr., and Junior have always kept themselves “walled off” on intelligence matters. I find that to be comforting somehow…
OTOH, I think this guy is a plant and apologist for the illegalities performed by the CIA – my gut says they sent this boy-scout-lookin’ motherfucker as a sympathy ploy.
I noticed that. Fascinating, but utterly unsurprising.
Just last week on NPR Morning Edition I heard Guy Raz report that by next summer the US should be able to draw down the troops to about 130,000. That sounds like progress is really being made. In light of that, and w planning to keep troops on enduring bases, I don’t see why you people at this site are driven so crazy by our Commander in Chief; just bush bashing I guess. We know that those Iraqis won’t do anything now that they see who is boss over there.
I have only one nit to pick and that’s your use of the term “we’re at war.”
Actually, all we are doing is waging war. This nation is no more at war with Iraq than Ecuador is, but thanks to the brilliance of little Georgie and his gang of ass candles, we happen to be waging war against a country and a populace that never threatened our nation.
Nit picking done.
You hear that dick head try to squeeze hanoi jane in there?
Just last week on NPR Morning Edition I heard Guy Raz report that by next summer the US should be able to draw down the troops to about 130,000. That sounds like progress is really being made. In light of that, and w planning to keep troops on enduring bases, I don’t see why you people at this site are driven so crazy by our Commander in Chief; just bush bashing I guess. We know that those Iraqis won’t do anything now that they see who is boss over there.
Pass that bong.
Yeah, drawing down the troops to 130K is smart. Puts us right back to where things were at the end of 2006, i.e., no end in sight.
Eli is shrill.
Reality has a well-known shrillish bias.
“Reality has a well-known shrillish bias.”
Don’t worry Eli, so do Texans who happen to be Blue.
I’m just thinking he may want to remind the American people that the war is still on. I do not claim any expertise, and I was surprised that bin Laden did his tape shortly before the ‘04 election. Almost like he wanted Bush to win. But Bin Laden, like BushCo, wants chaos.
Hey, Raven. I saw the pic of you while a young protester. Dang!
You hear that dick head try to squeeze hanoi jane in there?
missed that – but I find it interesting that every time this guy says waterboarding is wrong, somehow the take-away is that the CIA were the good guys – wasn’t their fault – nope – we were just worried about Americans, ya see.. they made us do it, and in hindsight, ummm, maybe we shoulda asked more questions. We feel awful about it – really we do….
Why would that be surprising? Dubya is the best thing that ever happened to al Qaeda.
garsh! Such a time it was.
moqtada al sadr is trying to gain control of Iraq.
the bin ladens are the bushies best friends…
big diff…
One of the ironies about Moqtada al Sadr and his Mahdi army is the other main Shi’ite player– the Badr Organization. They’ve got more Iranian connections than anyone, yet they’re the ones our American forces are in league with against Moqtada al Sadr. It’s an interesting game to play when accusing Iran of interfering in Iraq, when one of our main partners in south Iraq is the most Iranian-connected force in the area.
I think there’s an old proverb somewhere that sez, I can take care of my enemies. Its my friends that I worry about.
Bob in HI
You are joking, right?
My friends son is on his way home now. His analysis is that he trusts not a one of them.
I think the US has set the US forces up for a dangerous day ahead. One wonders how much cooperation has gone on with the former insurgents. One wonders if there are many who have been watching the US bases, getting the logistics down and then prepping for the day……
We’ve given lots of money and weapons to lots of people over there.
-G
Yup.
Been a while since we talked about “A Decent Interval” by Schnepp.
What could happen when all-out war with the Mahdi Army erupts?
Dien Bien Phu, Iraq
Sure smells like Tet to me….
Uhmmm… Who is boss over there…?
Sometimes by design, and sometimes just through sheer inattention. Amazing how cavalier the occupation has been.
Okay, maybe “amazing” isn’t the right word…
Nah, too flat, no fog, too much air and arty.
Anybody see that program about the Green Berets trapped in the bunker during Tet???? Holy Shizzola…Raven, I’m sure you know…I don’t remember the name of the place. Unbelievably horrible story!
1,692 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Eli and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“what happens when they come for us again? Are we ready?”
Oh shit…my heart is breakin’ here, those kidz bunkered up are stationary targets and they can’t venture out on the narrow streets or open highways without gettin’ the shit knocked outta them. Does anyone remember how the Afghanis kicked the dogshit outta the Soviets? Oh God, hear my cry and save these kidz the Iraqis are preparin a whole lotta hell for those soldiers…and we are all responsible for what’s comin’ down here folks!!
Oh my…I can’t take this anymore…I wish every American could take a UTube visit to the emergency room of the Evac Hospital I worked at in the Central Highlands in 1966-67. Jest a 5 minute visit durin’ a push from fights in Bong Son or Chu Lie (sic) would be enough ta impeach these bastards tomorrow!!
Awe shit we let these fuckin’ Nazis do it to us again!! God’s not gunna be kind to us but maybe we ken save our children…
KEEP THE FAITH AND SUPPORT THE TROOPS…IMPEACH THE BASTARDS TOMORROW!!
More like Stalingrad in Sadr City…
Lang Vei?
I think it was Huff Post that said that the Iraqis are wearing “Martyr White”…Gee, maybe they are upset that more than a million Iraqis have died since W’s excursion and destruction of the country occurred….
Watch out for Xmas….
I’m still partial to Saigon ‘75…
Nope, could just do hit & runs along the supply routes. Don’t have to “hold” the territory. Would impact U.S. supplies pretty quickly. And U.S. troops could not get out of Iraq without great losses in such a war.
Sounds right.
Damn Ron, sorry I didn’t read that, nicely done.
1,692 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Raven, you out there brother…I’m breakin’ up here.
KEEP THE FAITH, WE DESERVE EVERYTHIN’ WE’RE GUNNA GET!!
“My friends son is on his way home now. His analysis is that he trusts not a one of them.”
That’s about right.
Another irony: Bush, the crusading Christian, with his invasion of Iraq, has presided over the extermination of about 90% of the once-thriving Christian community in Iraq. Remember Tariq Aziz? He used to be one of the highest ranking Christians in the Iraqi government. He remains in prison or under house arrest.
Bob in HI
Great post Eli, as per usual.
IIRC, all our supplies come from the south through Basra, which the British no longer control. I believe Sadr’s effective control doesn’t start until our supplies get further north, closer to Baghdad.
WRT to controlling Iraq, between those who have fled and those who have died, there are a lot fewer people left to kill. All Clusterf*ck has done is gone from destabilizing Iraq to destabilizing the entire Middle East. Well, that’s in addition to making Russia and Iran a lot more dominant than they were. What a wonderful US foreign policy.
Bullseye.
The Lang Vei SF camp located eight kilometers west of Khe Sanh was manned by A-101 Detachment with 24 US SF soldiers, an ARVN SF unit, and about 500 Montagnard CIDG troops. The 66th NVA Regiment attacked with about 400 infantry supported by 11 PT76 tanks and artillery. The attack started just after mid-night and the last radio transmission from the bases was at 0245H. Most of the survivors made it to Khe Sanh on foot or were picked up by helicopters the next day. Over 200 CIDG troops were KIA or MIA, there were 75 WIA. US losses were 10 KIA and 11 WIA. Enemy losses were estimated at 200 KIA. The camp was overrun and destroyed
Thanks Raven and Boo. Just trying to see clearly.
The fix was in, in this Iraq fiasco when Bush was allowed to get away with “imbedded press” coverage. That move effectively censored all real access to what was going on over there. And it was the press that let the president get away with it. At the time this move was instituted I didn’t hear Btooks or Russert or any other media types screaming about it. And of course the politicians from both parties help GWB hoodwink the American people about what was going was going on over there too. It’s beyond disgusting. Responsible and balanced journalism. My a**.
Got ya 5×5 Norske. Steady bro, keep that faith.
And don’t forget all those Iraqi ammo dumps that we didn’t bother to sequester during the invasion. “Amazing stupidity” comes to mind.
Bob in HI
The most dangerous aspect is the foolish ‘war is over’ meme that is being pushed by the usual blowhards at AEI, Weakly Standard and TNR.
I also read that the US is undergoing a major shift in the upper echelons too…..
We also have the regional problems coming to a head again. Israel with a large scale incursion into Gaza in the face of the continued shelling from Hamas and others.
Turkey champing to take out the PKK.
Pakistan, Afghanistan….
Al Qaeda attacks in Algeria……
Sudanese rebels attacking a Chinese run oil facility…
Putin cementing power…
China denying US ships dockings in Taiwan….
Kosovo heating up…
Ethipoia and Eritrea girding for war…
Meanwhile the US is collapsing domestically.
Gonna be a humdinger of an 08.
-G
ding, ding, ding.
Believe me, I haven’t. When that revelation fizzled, that was when I realized that the fix was in, and BushCo. could never be completely discredited.
I just hate to put a note in the comment to show that it is sarcasm.
I don’t think that anyone is really in control in Iraq. We do know that the rethugs won control of the Congress in 2006. It now looks as though no matter who gets elected in 2008, the rethugs will control the wh.
I’m perfectly okay with the war being over. Just so long as we deploy our troops appropriately for it.
This is the stuff that the Democratc front runners should be yelling about. But they can’t. Why? Because they’re not a whole lot better than Bush on Iraq. For that matter, Iran either.
Bingo. Westmoreland wouldn’t help them, because he thought it was too dangerous…Also, right before this happened, they had discovered that there were “bridges” underwater that supported tanks (because they saw the tank tracks in the mud) and the rocks built up under the water in the river to support them… and it was the first time that tanks were used by the VCong during the war…Also, they lobbed every kind of grenade and teargas and thermite grenades into the bunker, where the forces were….they endured bloody hell….but they mostly survived…an incredible story.
I forgot to mention Lebanon too.
-G
Ron at 37, i have your blog bookmarked and did a special bookmark for that when you posted it. i knew then that was foreshadowing…. Shades of Gilliard, Ron.
Thanks, Boo. I’m pretty sure al-Sadr has been going easy on us, perhaps lying low and consolidating power, or perhaps just hoping that we’ll go away.
But thanks to Gilliard, I’m pretty worried about what he might be able to do when he gets riled up, which it sounds like he is.
would you like hard or soft power with that sir.
No, Eli. You have it all wrong. We are not at war. We are at “occupation”!.
Stuff Happens.
Squares with my impression of his role (manipulated and indulged). Right up his alley – The Decider.
Nighty-night, all.
That’s interesting. Hopefully you’re wrong, but I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re right. Good piece-thought provoking.
night-night, Bear
night bear county
Thank you Kathryn.
Hey, TexBetsy **smooch**
‘Night, BearCountry.
hey there katherine. Hugs!
G’night BearCountry! Snark acknowledged.
And instead of issues we get GOP propaganda. The Oprah/Obama sideshow extravaganza and HRC toting her mother and daughter around extolling us to vote for Hillary. Good gawd. No wonder many don’t bother to go to the polls on election day. I am radically sick of the bullshit.
I’m sure the troops are “en Garde” for a possible uprising of Sadr’s army…I’m mostly worried about the reporters, etc., in the Green Zone…Just sayin’….I worry.
Night BearCountry. You had me worried for a while there!
1,692 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I have learned so much from the last 3 years of participating in this site and the community here has been a Godsend in times of dispair but I want to share somethin’ here that maybe some a the other vets who took a lot more shit than I have experienced ken also relate.
I remember the Christmas of 1967, it was the first Christmas I had ever really spent away from home. I spent it runnin’ litters from the Medivacs to the ER and onto pre-op. Now,my father was a disabled and much decorated WWII vet and my Grandfather Ole had a purple heart from WWI and they both told me I was nuts to enlist (instead of bein’ drafted outta school)…but now I know how they musta felt when they listened ta the news, Grampa Ole in 1944 right after D-Day and my father the whole year I was in-country.
We must promise ourselves and those brave kids waitin for their little experience with hell that we will never forget and we will never stop fightin’ until every one of them is back home!! This must never happen again!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND TAKE CARE OF THE CHILDREN!!
Oh, yeah…and I worry about women raped and held in containers in the Green Zone by Halliburton….yeah. I’m friggin’ worried!!!
Did Hillary ever get the plan to bring the troops home from Iraq from the pentagon? The one they said she was not entitled to, but later backed down on?
My armny major efried told me that the Green Zone is not that difficult to penetrate. But that was several years ago, and they’ve probaably hardened it since.
Snort!!!
A friend of mine is convinced that the Resident is capable of leaving the troops there to get run over as a way of proving the Dems as “against the troops” if appropriations don’t go his way. And i concur – Jr didn’t blow up frogs out of stupidity; there is a huge mean streak there.
Not sure there’s actually any reason to assume that. Although any rational occupying power would.
I sure hope so…I worry about those people and the Iraqi people…everyone caught in the crossfire of this illegal war.
Just an aside here: I wonder if the drawdown troops are going to hit the ‘729′ lurk that the previous ones did? And whatever happened to that story, anyway?!
And I’m still wondering about those 730 bases in 130 countries and X number of military that keeps on being paid for with tax dollars, for what?
I think so as well – I’m pretty sure I even posted on that a while back.
My neighbor’s kid is in Fallujia. i’m just sick. 2 of my son’s classmates are already dead.
“there is a huge mean streak there.”
There is. and my pop psychology figures on two things —
1. Dubya’s dad did his part, Dubya didn’t.
2. He’s the product of a rich, exclusive society, one that acts royally without the royal coats of arms. He thinks disagreement with him is akin to rebelling against the King, an act of outright rebellion, and therefore must be shut down. Pronto.
I said something about this quite awhile ago, the Arabs have a culture of “raids”…They have “warred” amongst each other for hundreds and hundreds of years…they wait. They feel they have all the time in the world, they regroup, and they strike. That is what their tactics are. They are territorial. They encircle, and they wait, and they strike, they get in and they get out. That is how they fight. They don’t launch huge cumbersome, military “divisions” or “brigades”…they have “raiding parties”…They will never, ever, ever, ever, ever…give up their “land” to anyone…..That is just the way it is.
2 of my son’s classmates are already dead.
We’re 25 years away from discovering the true cost of this war, and that’s just for the men and women of this nation. We’ll never know the cost the Iraqi people paid.
How many times have the words above been spoken by heart-broken moms and dads, grandmas and grandpas across this nation in the past four years?
Huge hugs to Raven and Norske. Luv you both. The Nam experiences continue to haunt all of us of that generation, no matter how large or small our experiences may have been. I can’t think about “The Wall” without weeping.
Apparently there is no avoiding Eli. *sigh*
Humboltblue, Bush&Co. have been building this monarchy for some time, with all the ruthlessness one can imagine. i think we compiled a list of at least 14 ‘mysterious’ deaths in their path. Trust this generation (a little inbred?) to start getting things wrong. Bush Sr in tears that all their work is going down the drain (please, dog!)
I promise.
Umm, just so you know, I am not repeating posts deliberately … don’t know what’s-a-happ’nin’.
And, raven, I wanted give you my thanks for the link you put up the other eve, and for the word “hypervigilance”. Explained so much. I thanked you on that thread, but you had already signed off by the time I posted my thanks. xxooo
Raven and Norske, i was in the hippy anti-war crowd in DC ‘68 – 71.
Nobody told Bush and Cheney about mortars. All a wall does is give the mortars cover to lob shells all over the Green Zone.
OT, Brooks didn’t get the memo about not so much happy face. If the surge works too well, Clusterf*ck can’t cry about Iranian interference in Iraq’s affairs.
i don’t think that’s arab culture. i think that guerrilla warfare.
It’s astounding. The most powerful nation on earth can’t beat Iraq. Just like Afghanistan and ‘Nam.
1,692 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Firepup Freedom Fighters:
I want to suggest that we all here tonight promise that we will not let anyone rest when these next battles erupt…Christmas I am thinkin’… and we will all hit the streets and drag the politicians out. The war in Iraq and how we got there must become the only issue from which all other political actions flow. No Democrat who has not called for unconditional withdrawal should get a single vote…
KEEP THE FAITH AND THROW THE BASTARDS OUT WITH THE FUCKIN’ TRASH!!
I should have said Bedouin culture.
of course we can – just let cheney at the nukes. that’s what we have to prevent.
Norske – i promise my best
VG – I left you something near the bottom of the “Congress Screams Kiddie-Porn” post. Wish I knew more.
Someone said a good while back that his greatest fear was our troops would have to fight their way out of the country. (Wes Clark?)
Not even clear they can secure the route from the green zone to the airport.
Last time Cheney was in Baghdad they transported him to green zone via helo.
Promised.
Exactly, because that is the only trick he has…he’s a one trick pony. Oh, yeah, and had 5 draft deferrments…He’s a lumberjack and he’s okay….yeah, dream on….
The troops have to leave in ground conveys thru Basra. Easy targets.
The nukes. Has there been any accounting? That was no mistake, that was an attempt at serious destruction. Does anyone know who is following that issue?
jayt- thanks- I will go back and check for your legal eagle insight.
Kiddo, in places where the insurgents have the support of the population, I can’t think of an insurgency that’s ever been defeated. As Giap said, that’s their home-they have nowhere to go. We can kill them, but we cannot beat them. We can bomb them to dust, but we cannot make them think the way we want.
And anything less than that is defeat.
Or Steve Gilliard.
Reality check: Bush and Cheney are going to protect the United States of America????….What drugs are these people on anyway???? The biggest cowards in the United States are going to be our protectors??? …Yeeeeaaaahhhh….Uh Huh…
LS, why do you say “snort” at Hillary asking for the Defense Department to providing a plan for bringing our troops home safely?
My guess is that at least several people have said it.
Joe Wilson said it in an FDL chat in December 2006.
Planned defeat by war criminals.
‘The US is the most powerful single force in Iraq but it is by no means the only one. The shape of Iraqi politics have changed over the last year though for reasons that have little to do with ‘the Surge’–the 30,000 US troop reinforcements — and much to do with the battle for supremacy between the Sunni and Shia communities.
‘The Sunni Arabs of Iraq turned against al Qa’ida partly because [al Qa’ida] tried to monopolize power but primarily because it had brought their community close to catastrophe. The Sunni war against the US occupation had gone surprisingly well for them since it began in 2003. It was a second war, the one against the Shia majority led by al-Qa’ida, which the Sunni were losing with disastrous results for themselves.
‘”The Sunni people now think they cannot fight two wars–against the occupation and the government–at the same time,” … This is why much of the non-al-Qa’ida Sunni insurgency has effectively changed sides.’
Patrick Cockburn, ‘Nothing is Resolved in Iraq’, Counterpunch, December 11, 2007 http://www.counterpunch.org/
That’s the nub of it.
Not snort at her…snort that anybody from whom she requested the exit plan would respond…this Admin. just “says no”. That is what the snort is. They won’t ever give in to anything those who oppose them ask for, demand, legally deserve to get….anything….It ain’t gonna happen. They need to be held accountable, impeached, and removed from government..now. We are in a serious crisis with these people. Nothing is rational with them. Nothing.
Does the Timmeh lunch pail come with a matching thermos?
jayt- thanks, you response educated me, even if the ground is murky. Much appreciated.
And, if anyone wants to know what we are talking about, this comment
from jayt was in the context of the “kiddie porn” post/ thread:
http://firedoglake.com/2007/12…..nt-1143216
When the Irakis want us out of their country, the Irakis will take their country back. And woe to those Green Zonians who aided and abetted America’s illegal occupation.
“Smellin like Khe Sahn before Tet is it?”
nope, more like Dien Bien Phu, just like Gillard predicted.
“The most insidious of traitors”…no truer words have been spoken in our time….
Of course. Buffalo is a very cold place.
Did I mention that he’s from Buffalo? It’s very blue collar, you know.
I believe that was Joe Wilson who said that, actually.
Agreed. It’s almost as if they came into power with the idea that they would ruin America. Thanks all that is healthy for people like Fitz, KO, Jane et.al., Turley, Dean, etc., etc.
a second western route, i think, has been established (as part of our alliance with the sunni) will look for the link…
how it ends
FWIW:
Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq (especially Iraq) have met the criteria laid out by the Powell Doctrine (which was intended to prevent Vietnam-like quagmires).
Vichy Dems should also being asking a question Joe Wilson asked at FDL in December:
It’s critical imo that Dems use the language of the military to get us OUT of there. As so many have pointed out above the US presence in Iraq is strategically and tactically untenable.
OT, thanks to the software gods. This is the first time I’ve gotten “preview” to work.
Staring at shoes, thinking, there goes one less excuse for comment errors.
Thanks. Hadn’t seen that. But my first thought is how good will that be when the insurgency gets back into full swing.
International Shock Doctrine.
“It’s almost as if they came into power with the idea that they would ruin America. “
Joshua Micah Marshall had a post comparing the Busheviki to a mafia bust out operation.
Powell is soooo 90s.
The Powell doctrine is “what do I need to say to keep my job.”
steve gilliard said if for years. here’s a post he wrote for jane: A Fighting Retreat
They had to figure out a way to make us a sweatshop economy instead of raising the standard of living elsewhere.
evening all.
link to the pic of you protesting?
Teddy, I certainly remember Joe Wilson saying ~ “we will have to fight our way out” on an FDL thread, in the comments, and then perhaps later in a post he wrote.
But, as several firepups pointed out at the time, Gilliard had been articulating this on his blog, in great detail (the bridges especially) way before Wilson said it at FDL.
Yep. al-Quada is on the run. Victory soon. The wars are nearly over.
AP – Two truck bombs set off in quick succession sheared off the fronts of U.N. offices and a government building in Algeria’s capital Tuesday, killing at least 26 people and wounding nearly 200 in an attack claimed by an affiliate of al-Qaida.
They had to figure out a way to rob us back to the stone age.
No thread on this subject would be complete without mentioning the revenge motivation that is widely reported to be an important part of the Arab culture. No way Americans are going to get out there without getting slaughtered.
Screw bringing out all the equipment – just get our kids out, and fast.
Yup. Freakin’ brilliant. Now, I’m again, really sad.
We be stuck, and we be stuck..bad.
From the beginning I have been saying this to my family. 130,000 American dead. In a week? a month? Can you imagine what the Bush crime family will do with that? Fools. Evil horrid fools.
Sad to say I just became aware of Steve as he was passing, and it’s an excelllent piece-never seen it before. Two issues I would take with Gilliard’s piece, however, are his assumptions that the US Army can be stopped by cutting the roads-the US Army is NOT roadbound, thanks to GPS, and the downplayingl of the Air Force. Comparisons from Korea are very interesting.
Bingo.
Oh but they’re going to let it happen under a D prez. With all the blame that will allow.
U.S. does not have enough air power & runways to get troops out in haste.
No, but they do have enough to “plow the road.”
Please explain how that would work.
found it: ‘You could supply us through Aqaba’
on alternative supply (and i presume withdrawal) route to the west.
Yep. When the shit really hits the fan it will be a dem president in charge and the Wurlitzer will crank right up and re-write history. It will be the fault of a president in office for perhaps a matter of weeks, ignoring completely the complete and utter incompetence of the previous administration, who, in the re-write, walked on water, healed the lame and raised the dead.
Is it close to possible that we’ll actually get Rachel Maddow on MSNBC?
Fresh air, for sure, if this works out.
See link #37.
They have to “sneak” them out…No, we’re staying for the long haul…blah, blah…We’re never leaving…permanent bases and all….meanwhile they have to leak them out…just guessing. The problem is, the people in the Green Zone are sitting ducks…but they hate journalists…we already know that. Yeah, we have 160,000 troops and a big ***k..meanwhile…where’d all those Americans go??? That is what they have to do.
Only the rebugs will believe their own bullshit.
I bet the JCS are sweating this nightmare – surely they have something thought out, whether or not Bush gives the say so. I don’t think they could sit by and watch a catastrophe.
Late Nite is upstairs
Yeah…they sure as hell will. And they have historical precedent, which unlike dumb-as Murkkkans, they know.
Khartoum!
Thanks. But that looks mighty vulnerable when things hot up again.
Mokie on Bobo. Jeez, sorta like Bambi meets Godzilla.
True:
Yep. When the shit really hits the fan it will be a dem president in charge and the Wurlitzer will crank right up and re-write history. It will be the fault of a president in office for perhaps a matter of weeks, ignoring completely the complete and utter incompetence of the previous administration, who, in the re-write, walked on water, healed the lame and raised the dead.
Unless the dem candidate for the general election has the guts to point this out. Not just the war, but the economy. It’s going to be a huge mess, and the dem candidate needs to let people know why, and what h/she plans to do to correct it.
heya, ofg!
hell yes.
I agree. And, I bet they are on pins and needles…I wish them luck..it is for sure not their fault…It tears me up frankly.
I also promise you Norskiflame…
Thanks very much selise.
FWIW, that route is dependent on the Straits of Hormuz which is controlled by Iran. As you probably know the Straits are probably the most important navigable waters in the world, because 25% of the world’s oil flows through them. They are extremely narrow and shallow. It’s two lanes, each a mile wide. Sink a few super tankers in the narrows and no oil gets out. Iranians have short range supersonic missiles from the Chinese and Russians (Sunburn). It’s very debatable whether our Navy has defenses for those.
One of the reason the U.S. is so cozy with Dubayi, is because it’s right across the straits from Iran.
A lot of people I’m sure are more expert on this. I just wanted to add this caveat to your as per usual excellent link and comment, lest others get the idea that there are other “easy” resupply options out there.
Thanks for the fighting their way out prognosticators. I’ll read the links
kindly provided when my black funk abates. My nagging memory is someone w/high military cred also said that, but perhaps not.
oops, wrong thread
yeah, as eCAHNomics said above. looks vunerable.
and long.
but vunerable and long are better than nothing.
I don’t think anyone on this thread mentioned the obvious; which is that the bushCo “plan” consists of one thing and one thing only:
That is; try to string out the clusterfuck long enough to give bush and the petro-borgs a chance to hop a D.C. graydog as they toss the dems the flaming turd-bouquet. And then they head for their corporate board sinecures and get out the “who lost Iraq?” machetes.
That’s the plan. The only plan.
They’ve turned Baghdad into a rat’s maze of concrete blast-barriers and checkpoints, to try to suppress the mayhem.
Many of the formerly mixed neighborhoods have been subjected to a murderous factional cleansing, to the point that the Sunni and Shia can’t get at each other without a fair amount of effort in dealing with the urban dystopian nightmare that the occupation has made of a city the size of Los Angeles.
Baghdad and environs are being “Lebanized”; but the problem for the GOP (and almost certainly, in the not-too-distant future, the democrats) is, that it can’t be sustained without a permanent massive committment of our troops AND our money.
The question is, are the democrats willing to inherit the shitmire?
As of now, it appears they are, instead of hammering bush for creating it out of bullshit and koolaid, and now trying to dump it in their laps.
But it’s still nearly a year until the election, and there’s plenty of time for a reality-check for the voters. :o)
Oops! Shorter tanbark:
What LooHoo said.
I’ve kind of taken it as a given that the plan has always been to run out the clock until it becomes the Democrats’ problem. And the Democrats seem perfectly willing to go along with that, despite it being totally against their best interests, and the country’s best interests.
The most charitable explanation I can come up with is that they’re afraid of what might happen if Dubya is in charge of the withdrawal, but I seriously doubt that that’s factoring into their calculations at all.
I came very late. I would call Brooks a horse’s ass save that I do not wish to offend all the horse’s asses out there, despite the fact that both they and Brooks are prodigious producers of horseshit.
It’s never too late to call Brooks a horse’s ass.
… who responded thus to someone’s earlier maunderings about our glorious leader and his surge:
Well I’ve just about had it with every bit of uninformed balderdash being ascribed to someone smoking something in a bong. I have smoked things in bongs. Doing so does not cause you to take leave of your senses in the fashion of our surge protector up there; in fact I used to call the stuff in the bowl of the bong a “placebo.”
If you talk nonsense after smoking a bong, it’s because nonsense is what you talk.
That is all.
No one has a defence against the SS-N22. Aside from that, Putin is playing war games. Meanwhile, the Chinese are divesting themselves of weakening US$ around the world.
The question is, will the US economy fail first or the next stupid manuever.
One thing about the Arab culture, yes, they know revenge, they also know honour. Which is more than one can say for KBR rapists.
Humpf. If we spend money like we are at war, and we kill people like we are at war, and if we maim people like we are at war, and if we displace people like we are at war, then who is to say we are NOT at war?
On the other hand, maybe we should declare ‘mission accomplished’, bring the troops home , close Gitmo and the gulag, and most importantly, cancel the unitary executive powers in time of war theory. Mission accomplished would of course be a lie, but then, it was always a lie, so who cares?
The surge triumphalism will collapse the first month American deaths go back to 60-70.
I think it’s an indication of how phony these wars are. In a real war you feel completely free to decimate the entire country, innocents and all. Here we clearly know we’re not free to do that and we know the entire war is a sham.
There probably hasn’t been a real war since WWII.
Defensive war is justified. What we’ve been doing isn’t defensive and as far as I can tell there’s hardly anybody in the world we need to be defensive about — not because somebody has lots of weaponry, but because nobody really wants to try and conquer us.
Why do we need so many bases and such a large military if nobody’s trying to conquer us? Must be some other agenda going on there.
THE NEW HOLOCAUST DENIERS
Brooks and Beinart are desperately busy trying to cover up war crimes and crimes against humanity. Their record throughout the war and invasion is revolting, but this caps it with a kind of loathsome moral depravity. I’m sure their services would have been appreciated by Dr. Goebbels. How can either of these men sleep at night?