Lady Macbeth:
Out, damn’d spot! out, I say!-One; two: why, then
’tis time to do’t.-Hell is murky.-Fie, my lord, fie, a soldier, and
afeard? What need we fear who knows it, when none can call our
pow’r to accompt?-Yet who would have thought the old man to
have had so much blood in him?
OMG, who could have predicted. . .? Oh, I won’t even bother. Some things defy snark.
Glenzilla has the most thorough review I’ve seen so far on the heels of this piece from the ComPost, revealing the sidewalk check in concierge service performed for the most corrupt and unconstitutional administration in U. S. history, with services most notably performed by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. But Greenwald also reviews Jello Jay Rockefeller, Silvestre Reyes and the whole complicit crew. He concludes:
Just look at how compromised Congressional Democratic leaders are when it comes to those charged with exercising "oversight" over our intelligence communities. And one finds this with almost the entire list of Bush abuses.
Whether it’s the war in Iraq or illegal surveillance or the abolition of habeas corpus and now the systematic use of torture, it’s the Bush administration that conceived of the policies, implemented them and presided over their corrupt application. But it’s Congressional Democrats at the leadership level who were the key allies and enablers, never getting their hands dirty with implementation — and thus feigning theatrical, impotent outrage once each abuse was publicly exposed — but nonetheless working feverishly the entire time to enable all of it every step of the way.
Marcy Wheeler adds some questions and looks at this aright: as bad as the Democratic leadership has been, and as much as the blood won’t wash out, let’s not tell lies to ourselves, Americans: the blood is on all our hands. It’s all of our continuing responsibility, not to erase our history or actions, but to make all them public, to change our ways and reform, not because we expect the world to forgive us (would you?), but because there is no other way to rescue ourselves. . . from ourselves.
- Frankly, I think our intelligence oversight has put the Administration in as difficult a position as John Yoo has. That is, by signing off on something (and, as the WaPo describes, in several cases encouraging it), our Congressional intell leaders gave the Administration the legal sanction to torture. And now, after years of it, they’re trying to shut it down. Shutting it down is far overdue–that has to happen. But we’re now in the difficult place of condemning, as a society, practices that our society sanctioned as legal just a few years ago.
- We need to find a way to make intelligence oversight useful. On every major revelation like this, we have had at least one Democratic leader who objects to illegal practices. Yet that person is virtually helpless to respond.
- And for that matter, we need to get better intelligence leadership. As I showed yesterday, Jello Jay’s first instinct when hit with one of these revelations is literally to parrot the script of the CIA. That’s not oversight. If nothing else, this revelation needs to spark a call for real leaders in Intelligence, not the script-reader in the Senate and and not someone whose brother is the CIA torture master’s buddy in the House. I nominate Russ Feingold and Rush Holt.
This nation has a lot to answer for before the rest of the world. Ugh.
We need better Democrats. Here’s where you can do your part.



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uno
Is everyone over at EW’s place?
It’s time for us to replace bad Democrats with real Democrats. It’s time to replace our congress with people who will end the leadership of Hoyer and Pelosi and replace them with someone who gives more of a damn about the country than their own power.
Wee’re all responsible. That’s why we’re so outraged.
BTW Snowbird. Can I stay at your place when I ski at Snowbird?
You’d have a drive. I live in TN now and….I had a cat named Snowbird (g)
better Democrats
What the hell is that?!?
watching mtp and I have decided Rudy is a complete idiot.
—-
For more than an hour, the bipartisan group, which included current House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), was given a virtual tour of the CIA’s overseas detention sites and the harsh techniques interrogators had devised to try to make their prisoners talk.
Among the techniques described, said two officials present, was waterboarding, a practice that years later would be condemned as torture by Democrats and some Republicans on Capitol Hill. But on that day, no objections were raised.
The lawmakers who held oversight roles during the period included Pelosi and Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.) and Sens. Bob Graham (D-Fla.) and John D. Rockefeller IV (D-W.Va.)…
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..id=topnews
—-
Nancy, Nancy, Nancy. Now we understand why impeachment is off the table. You’re covering up your own complicity with the secret torture facilities and waterboarding.
Dems, please learn one thing. Every time you enable Republican illegal behavior, you get their stink on you. Haven’t you figured this out by now?
- Tom
and now we know why nancy pelosi has always opposed impeachment. any investigation would have included her collusion with this rancid, monstrous administration in their embrace of kidnapping, rape and torture as instruments of u.s. foreign policy.
every last one of these fucking scumbags must be held accountable. sadly, as this country has devolved into a rogue nation that adheres to no domestic nor international laws or agreements, that will never happen. rule of law, my ass.
united states of america, 1776-2000. r.i.p.
The only sources that I can see here are Goss, Hayden, and “a U.S. official who witnessed the exchange.” That is to say, unless we find out more, these are people in serious need of ass-covering, and not people whose words you can 100% depend upon.
Further, it has been a common claim of those in the Administration that they have briefed Democrats fully on everything, but they keep using strange language such as “the program that we’re talking about today” without mentioning what they’re doing in the other program. We know we’re not getting the full truth from these people.
It’s sad when Jane Harman is the one who looks good in her actions.
Thank you Pach.
I’ve been following links wherever they go from this. OMG am I out of touch! They’re endless… Isn’t that good news of a sort? Means the story can’t be quashed any more. It’s O.U.T.ed.
Apologies for being a ninny, but I’d like to think we have some better Democrats in service right now. They’ve been hobbled. I won’t name names, because that only made me a target in the past,& I’m still recovery from burnout experienced years before I met the wonderful pack at the Lake.
Methinks we have no need for the likes of MissManners & the Cardshark in leadership.
But we still need them in some sense, because it’s obviously a game of numbers in the Lege, regardless of high-sounding moralizing therein.
I, for one, will grit my teeth and still try to hope the “Good Dems” will work for better times. My gawd there’s an awful mess to clean up.
Porter Goss?
“…not people whose words you can 100% depend upon.”
That asshole is way beyond even this credibility warning.
~
ooo-boy! giuliani, after being asked about his business dealings with Qatar, just whipped off his glasses and leaned forward like he would punch Timmeh in the nose…
what a little thug…
The comment thread associated with EmptyWheel’s post is particularly worth reading.
Over on Marcy’s thread, several commenters have offered this grain of salt about the WaPo article:
Who benefits? Who benefits from this getting out? This is obviously a shot across the bow to Congressional Dems calling for investigations into the destruction of the torture tapes.
And this is obvioulsy meant to get Nancy to tell her caucus to STFU.
So, Pach, though I share your rage and disappointment with Nancy–let’s think about how we don’t want to play into the W/H’s hands?
So, suddenly we’re taking as gospel the stenography that comes out of the Post?
“According to two officials…” Which officials? GOP officials?
Does it strike anyone else as an interesting coincidence that days after the NIE story, there is a story about how Dem leaders also do dumb things with intel?
Who benefits from the “both parties are exactly the same” meme? Democrats? No.
we insist that speaker pelosi comes clean?
can we do that? how?
This is beyond pathetic. Reyes and Rockefeller need to be stripped of their committee chairmanships. Pelosi should step down as speaker. The true progressives MUST grab control of this party for the sake of our country and our party.
Just another example of why the Lake community is the *bestest* place in the whole internets. *g*
Another bright shiny thong?
Not that I don’t think Nancy is a gutless wonder Pach. I totally agree with you.
But this is a Hot piece, meant to cut the legs out from under thse dems in Congress trying to turn over a rock to show what’s crawling around underneath,
Let’s think about how we take TRex’s brillinat advice and
Pivot, then calmly,
ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK
[I always love quoting that!]
We are the only ones who can do it. The media is having a love affair with Oprah and Willard
Thanx to you & lhp for heads-up. Marcy’s incredible.
Thanks to Jane & techies for making cross-referencing easier, as well as streamlining and protecting a lotta things better than they were.
We look fwd to smoother sailing in the Lake but, in the meantime, we’re trying to cope w/o grumbling too much. Sometimes dawgies just get impatient, pant pant… ;->
What’s different Mr Boehner?
By making it clear to her, that if she comes clean, we have her back on this. By helping her (and I can’t stay–gotta go do some littleprop stuff) frame the meme.
You guys are better at this than anybody. Drive this story in the direction WE WANT IT TO GO.
Pivot and attack
u can alwayz blame busted preview, heh.
cleter — pelosi’s lack of response is the tell. she knew, she did nothing to prevent it, her subsequent public behavior was profoundly dishonest. what a surprise. from the wapo:
“Pelosi declined to comment directly on her reaction to the classified briefings. But a congressional source familiar with Pelosi’s position on the matter said the California lawmaker did recall discussions about enhanced interrogation. The source said Pelosi recalls that techniques described by the CIA were still in the planning stage — they had been designed and cleared with agency lawyers but not yet put in practice — and acknowledged that Pelosi did not raise objections at the time.”
John over at Americablog is spining it this way
Did Bush approve CIA leak to embarrass Pelosi?
I don’t agree with him, just posting it for consideration.
More money for war and no energy bill………
No 15% Renewables requirement………….
Only 35 mpg……. 35 years to late! Hey did Steny Hoyer, a Democrat motions to send Kucinich’s motion to impeach cheney to John Conyers? What did the House judish chair do with Kucinich’s motion? Toilet paper?
What is going on here? “The Asselephants and Executive Oil=?”
“Nancy, do you have any public comment about this classified briefing?”
“You know that I can’t discuss classified briefings with the media.”
Reporter goes over to Boehner’s office.
“Sure, Nancy had no objections to anything.”
“Great, I’ll put you down as a congressional source familiar with Pelosi’s position.”
I’m prepared to believe the worst about our Democratic leadership, but the fact that the story is attributed to “government sources” who were, they say, present at the virtual tour ought to give us pause. As I understand it no one at these briefings is allowed to say anything–confirm or deny anything–under penalty of the law. So who do we know who’s prepared to break the law–either by leaking a lie or the truth–in order to bring down or threaten with smears opponents of torture? As I understand it–those Dems who were there can’t even fight this–they’re compelled to keep they’re mouths shut. It’s a situation that’s not unlike the one Valerie Plame was in when her name was first leaked.
All that’s missing from this story is Cagney’s sneer and a “Top of the world, ma!”
Pletka on Blitzer–let’s not forget who the bad huys are. I am sure she’d have used the same logic in the Jim Crowe south while defending police complicity in lynchings.
-G
bad guys…..
I made a little image to accompany this moment in time:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com…..94b89a.jpg
If true, this is truly disturbing. However, the source being the Washington Post puts its veracity in doubt. Having read the article, the author uses entirely unnamed sources, which has become all too commonplace these days. Remember, WAPO has shown itself all too willing to pass on republican propoganda without verification. Not that I’m unwilling to believe such things about the likes of Jay Rockefeller, Jane Harmon, or even Nancy Pelosi. I just want to see verification from a reliable source. The Washington Post has proven all too often that it can no longer be trusted.
1,690 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Pachacutec and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“…let’s not tell lies to ourselves, Americans: the blood is on all our hands.”
And that, Pachacutec, is why I keep comin’ back to FDL. Bless your heart for articulating the fundamental question confronting America today: “How do we redeem our history and restore our humanity in the face of the suffering and death we have allowed to be loosed on the world in our name?”
There are tens of thousands of Americans who have been trying for over 30 years ta answer that question for themselves to restore some part of their humanity lost in acquiring the knowledge of war. And that is what politics is today, it is more than just relationships of power – politics is today the only method we have as a people to gain control of the monster within us and make restitution to the rest of humanity for the wounds and terrible pain we have inflicted on the rest of the human family for oh these many decades. Maybe we can can reclaim the power we have relinquished to the corporations through the exercise of free politics and acts of political courage…and if we do, we may be able to find a way toward “truth and reconciliation” like the South Africans have begun. But the battle to reclaim the power to heal instead of harm, to bring life instead of death, to extend hope instead of despair is not going to be without great pain and loss to ourselves and there are no guarantees that we will succeed in restoring dignity to our history.
Thank you again for your post, brother Pachacutec and…
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, GOD IS GETTIN’ IMPATIENT!!
Did the Wapo talk about Barack Obama’s ties to the interrogatees?
I am verrrry suspicious of this report.
-G
I wouldnt take the post story as gospel. lots of wiggle room in it and also it is sourced to whom–cheney, rove, rodriguez, hayden?
this is some real hardball by the bushies and/or the cia.
If they can get us to attack our own, they can appear above the fray.
“Consider the source.”
I hear the arguments about sourcing, and I don’t think I take a back seat to anyone in hammering the ComPost over time. I’m open to persuasion. In the interim, I’m persuaded by Marcy’s comment over at her place:
I left this comment over at Glenn’s site:
Democratic politicians have this quaint notion that what is past is past. This is a view shared by Republicans and most of the media. What they have yet to learn is that while the past is past, it is also on the internet.
What the Democrats expected us to forget on November 8, 2006 was that they had been the party in turn of silence, facilitation, and even cheerleading of the Bush Administration and its policies. Iraq, torture, tax cuts for the rich, Katrina, Walter Reed, corruption, cronyism, judgeships, US Attorneys, I keep a whole list of what went on and it has become very long. Yet during all that time, the Democrats both in their leadership and in their rank and file never once acted as a true opposition. As the Republicans have so ably shown, you only need 41 votes in the Senate to stop all legislation cold. This would not have prevented the most egregious of Bush’s extra-legal and extra-Constitutional excesses but it would have put him, Dick Cheney, his Administration, and Republicans in the House and Senate on notice that there would be a day of reckoning. Instead Democrats sent the opposite message.
By voting for, being complicit in, signing off on, so much of the Bush agenda, many Democrats including the whole of the leadership now find it easier to be angry with us for remembering than they are at the Bush Administration for doing what it did, or themselves for letting these last seven years happen.
nancy p may have a diary entry or have written a letter or whispered to Paul….
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/…..er-letter/
NorskeFlamethrower
“…politics is today the only method we have as a people to gain control of the monster within us and make restitution to the rest of humanity for the wounds and terrible pain we have inflicted on the rest of the human family for oh these many decades. Maybe we can can reclaim the power we have relinquished to the corporations through the exercise of free politics and acts of political courage…and if we do, we may be able to find a way toward “truth and reconciliation” like the South Africans have begun…”
Early this morning CNN ran the history of Mandela and the oppression of the South African government…..
You are correct………..
The post article says
If the story was wrong, Nancy had the opportunity to say so …and express her outrage. I think her silence is pretty telling here.
So: now that the progressive blogosphere has been made complete fools of and taken for the Mother of All Rides, what’s to be done now?
Arthur Silber was right, you know.
I always wondered what dirt the White House had on the Democrats. I agree we need new leadership if they don’t step down voluntarily for the good of the party during an Presidential election year.
These jokers could become the story during the election year and hurt us! Because Bush will stonewall any investigation about what he did, but Bush and Rove we know will leak everything they have on Nancy during the election.
I also think its time for an independent prosecutor to look at both Dems and GOPers.
What is the status of (D)Jane Harmon’s HR 1959?. Mandela knew all about these types of laws?
DiFi “a mistake?”
Please see LHP at ## 16 & 22.
At times like these, I resurrect what Harry Reid said on September 25, 2006 as he worked with Bill Frist to make sure that the Military Commissions Act would come up for a vote before the November elections:
But not one Senator decided to weigh a 1,000 pounds, not one Democrat. They all decided to go through the motions and remain flyweights.
We do need to hold the Democrats accountable. Rockefeller, Pelosi, Reid, all must be held to account, but in this we must not forget the overarching responsibility of Bush and the Republicans in the disasters they have inflicted on our country.
Fair enough, though I don’t particularly see the difficulty of saying “a close aide to Pelosi” or even “a Democratic aide”. Saying “a congressional source familiar with Pelosi’s position on the matter” opens you up to all sorts of evil.
Regardless, this is now in Pelosi’s court, and Pelosi has been given fair warning that she is to be thrown under the bus. Time to encourage her to do what must be done.
Please see LHP at ## 16 & 22.
(will be glad when preview returns, sigh)
I’m really surprised that people are taking this Wash Po article at face value. There are TWO UNIDENTIFIED sources to all of this. Whoever the sources are would have to have been at the “virtual briefing” in order to “know” what was presented and that Pelosi and the other Democratic Congressperson (either Graham or Rockefeller, the date of the briefing isn’t given and the article doesn’t clarify it at all) said.
Since Roberts supposedly would not comment that leaves Rep. PORTER GOSS as the “Congressional” source. This is the same Porter Goss that was CIA Director when the tape was destroyed. The other “official” (but not Congressperson, since the article would say two Congresspersons if there were) present must have been a CIA Briefer…one who was a specialist on the new interrogation techniques…i.e. a torturer. One of those on the tapes that were destroyed.
So we are accepting the words of two of the individuals likely to be involved in the destruction of the tapes. Persons who would most desperately want to suggest that the Congressional leadership not only KNEW about their techniques, but also encouraged more of it (at least two of them did, including dear old Porter Goss himself).
This is the same Porter Goss who purged the CIA of individuals that “wouldn’t go far enough to stop terrorism” (i.e. they were going to follow the law and the Constitution). The top four at the Division of Operations were cut, and the replacement, Jose Rodriguez (so-called model for Jack Bauer) was appointed head of OPs. Rodriguez just happens to be the one who destroyed the tapes after (supposedly) receiving statements not to from lawyers in the WH, DOJ, Congressional Reps. and Judges in the courts. Did Goss order him NOT TO destroy the tapes? Or did he actually give the green light.
In any case, I’m a bit surprised that my fellow FDL’ers are taking all of this at face value given what we know about how the Wash Po uses these sources to falsely frame stories.
The “source close to “Pelosi” who says she knew all about it has to be Goss as well. Why? Because all the information that Pelosi supposedly heard at the meeting is cited. Only a fellow Congressperson in attendance would know what was said and how they responded. Pelosi isn’t gonna go around and say what the program entailed and “I didn’t object”.
Now we have BOTH Rockefeller and Graham saying that THEY WERE NEVER BRIEFED ABOUT WATER BOARDING! So we have two on the record statements, vs. two anonymous sources that could face criminal charges for obstruction of justice.
Yes…. commute the punishment of an obstructor in a case against the executive for dislosure of a cia agent’s identity………. then rationalize the destruction of “tapes” to protect the identity of cia agents who violated established law with torture, at the behest of the executive? Consistancy in thought and action, rational and reason based. No crime here!
Every time I see a photo of Pelosi, my mind connects her to the “Palomino” skit from Saturday Night Live. It’s memorable.
Thank you for this post Pach! We have much work to do getting more and BETTER Democrats elected.
One of the worst Dem’s DiFi the abomination is spinning her THUG-lite crap on Wolfie.
Back from shovelling……
Suppose Pelosi knew all about this. Wouldn’t the only reasonable course for House Dems be to call for her resignation, in order to inoculate the party from endless “Clinton did it” type sniping from repubs in the upcoming election? In that case, what if they elected somebody as house leader who put impeachment back on the table? How does this benefit BushCo?
If it’s a smear job, it doesn’t seem to be very well thought out.
Why do you think it came out? Because Pelosi and crew were compromised. Why do you think impeachment was off the table? Because Pelosi would get exposed by this story(as she was anyway). She is shown to have been told about it.
Why do you think Pelosi took impeachment off the table then?
Yes a Truth and Reconciliation Commission confess voluntarily to everything or else risk getting prosecuted for war crimes later. This would give Nancy a chance to resign, confess and throw dirt at Bush.
Did we torture yes, how many did we torture? Do we need to ask about secret methods of torture and risk WH outrage over classified material no.
We just need the fact that torture happened on the record, and that Bush knew and approved.
Bush is in Legacy mode now lets break his dreams!
A man can still dream of freedom behind four walls and bars, but a man without dreams is always behind bars!
I agree..whatever the truth about this is..MSM manipulation is likely. At this point in time, the only verifiable truth is…All Republicans are bad and must be defeated. The only chance that we will have to learn the truth is to retake the Government in 01/20/09.
Unfortunately, if Pelosi were forced to resign as Speaker over this, all the House Dems would do is elect Hoyer as her replacement. I’d rather ride it out with Pelosi than the alternative.
i am down with that analysis about how one-sided the sourcing is and that two on-the-rcord Cong’s dispute it.
I am way over taking at face value stuff pouring into the pages of the wapo. just dont trust it. I had a dust up with a LATimes reporter on a similar journalistic issue in a much much smaller matter just this week.
she used sourcing but never promised not to name them and didnt name them. “just didnt have the space” and…still refuses to come clean on a flat statement of fact in her article (supposedly based on these conversations) that is clearly in error.
it is just ugly how righteous and wrong some journalists at the elite papers are these days, and I say that as someone who did it for 30 years, 20 at that level.
it is just ugly that the wapo has an ombudsman who doesnt know the first thing about doing her job and thinks getting angry email is evil.
I actually laughed when I saw this as their lead this Sunday. Not that I reallly think jay rock has balls or that pelosi wouldnt triangulate her ass into the next dimension faced with the soft-on-terror argument back in 2002 or 2003.
as someone said—when was this meeting anyway?
As someone over at Glenn’s place said, if this is true, it is no wonder why impeachment is off the table. Also, Smirk’s crew is adept on one thing, making sure the other side of the aisle is compromised in cases like this.
1,690 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Cinnamonape and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Brilliant!! Now have another Heineken…your analysis is, to me, rock solid. The criminals, torturers, liars and murderers are startin ta turn on each other and make no mistake about it, they will try and take as many innocents with ‘em as they can if they are to fall…this is the end game of the fascist monster we have allowed to control our country and it’s gunna take courage and honesty from millions to get rid of these bastards but most of all it’s gotta start with courage and honesty from those trusted with leadership. Nancy Pelosi, you have this one last chance to be a leader.
KEEP THE FAITH AND DON’T LET ANY OF ‘EM OFF THE HOOK!!
Because Nancy, bless her heart, thought that it would remove any distractions so that the newly Democratic Congress could pass legislation that benefits us all. It’s true.
Yeah, what he said. Has Pelosi made any comment on this yet?
We can still use this Nancy has been accused of well, WAR CRIMES. Now if in the investigation to see if Nancy is is guilty we open up who did what at the CIA and for once the DEMs show some stones and leak this information, like Bush has his entire time in the WH.
Then we will find out things we would not have otherwise. The Bushies have opened this door lets walk through. It is their leaked story its them who have accused Nancy so lets have an investigation an investigation the WH does not want us to have!
Unless of course the Bushies back down and disavow, discredit their own leak! I am hoping they won’t of course.
Impeach Pelosi, then her promise of no impeachment is moot. It was a promise made in subornation of a crime. To grant her a pass is to grant the Bush/Cheney Administration a pass. Any attempt to spin/defend her is to not only confirm that the Dems are complicit in all of their crimes, but the country will get no relief or justice with them in charge.
just re-read the article–read it last night and was writing from memory at 64–and the date is there for the first meeting.
i just dont trust an article that has as much squirrelly stuff in it as this one.
apparently not.
I wonder if RICO laws would apply if Nancy did know?
My party is complict with the Republicans in a number of things not just torture and voting for the Iraq fiasco. They’re are also comlicit in no impeachment hearings and a willingness to explore attacking Iran and tax cuts for the wealthy, going along with Gates’ confirmation and Mukasey’s and much more. It’s all so disgusting. Is it any wonder we have such low voter turnouts?
Responding to myself #50, I would just like to say that I think this is something of a distraction and misdirection. This isn’t just about something that happened a year after 9/11 when the “panicked reaction” argument might still fly. Democrats were still enabling the Bush agenda on torture, kangaroo courts, indefinite detention, and the assault on habeas corpus in September 2006 when they worked with Republicans to pass the Military Commissions Act.
And bringing up the point that I made at #42, Congressional Democrats have facilitated the worst excesses of the Bush Administration across the board for the last 7 years both when they were in the minority and the majority.
Finally, it is important to remember the difference between Republicans (crooks) and Democrats (cowards) while nothing to rejoice about is real.
Another possible divine right ruler?
Newsweek: The Republican’s success is due, in part, to right-time, right-place luck. But the ex-Arkansas (Huckabee) governor says it comes from above.
the “asselephants” the one party system beholding to the interests of corporations at odds with the longterm interets of the american people and the constitution……..
Te list of injustices is long and deceptive!
It could be just a leaky roof.
I think this is the game of “on the record” (use my name), “off the record” (Congressional official). It makes it look as if there are two people being referred to when in fact there is only one.
This whole “atemporal” section is phrased so strangely that it seems to lead to the conclusion that Pelosi knew about the waterboarding in 2003 from the briefing.
Members of the Intelligence Committees CANNOT DISCUSS CLASSIFIED BRIEFINGS (although someone clearly has). If she was called and asked by Wash Po to discuss a classified briefing she would have automatically said no comment. She can’t even discuss the material in such hearings with other members.
Now let’s deal with the Congressional “Source” who supposedly is “familiar” with Pelosi’s knowledge. How would that individual know that Pelosi had not raised objections in the hearing? How would the know that Pelosi “thought” that the techniques were in the planning stages…and cleared by CIA lawyers…and not put into practice? That sounds to me like this would either have to be someone at the meeting as well, or someone well briefed by Pelosi of what occurred at that highly classified meeting. But the latter would require a “second” confirmatory source.
The most parsimonious conclusion is that this Congressional “source” is again, Porter Goss. He would be credibly “familiar with Pelosi’s position” – note that the sourcing doesn’t say “an aide”, or a “Democratic congressperson”.
If it wasn’t Goss…but an aide who heard it through discussion then there would have to be a second backup source on this. That is another individual that heard the same information from Pelosi. But if everything is the result of one meeting then there is two sources necessary…Goss and the CIA “official”.
Finally there is the careful statement of when Pelosi “didn’t object”.
How would the source know she didn’t communicate those objections through letter with the White House? That would have occurred AFTER the briefing…not at that time. So either the individual would have to know everything about Pelosi’s correspondence on this issue, or we are talking about what was said IN the briefing. That leads back to the source being PORTER GOSS.
In fact, the phrasing almost indicates that Pelosi did make objections…later. And this is another critical point. That whole paragraph is structured to suggest that Pelosi’s “knowledge” related in some way in time to the supposed briefing. And Porter Goss might have been made aware of Pelosi’s subsequent opposition…when he was CIA Director.
Isn’t it clear that these people are all ethically challenged and blackmailed.
Power freaks.
TERM LIMITS
Throw them all out.
Get money out of politics
STRUGGLE!
If Nancy knew its real hard for Bush to say he didn’t know.
Hugh at 75
Democrats (cowards)
I am increasingly convinced that we are not seeing cowardice, but rather betrayal. At this point the simpler hypothesis is that they are voting their beliefs, and not coming clean with their constituents about those beliefs.
This is very simple to solve. Get ALL the facts out under oath.
Are we torturing people? Who? When?
Who devised the “program”? (what a revolting word!)
Who authorized it?
Who was aware of it?
Who actually carried it out?
Then we need some trials for human rights abuse if there was torture. ALL OF THEM. CONSPIRACY.
The truth is all we need and then some accountability moments. REAL ACCOUNTABILITY.
STUGGLE!
make that:
STRUGGLE!
Emptywheel had this to say about sourcing
:
You know, it’s not as if torture were the only thing one might consider impeaching Bush or Cheney for.
A person trying to fulfill her oath of office in difficult times might give some thought to just how many of those other things she was letting slide by compromise with this one. And how grave most of them are.
complict with the Republicans in a number of things not just torture and voting for the Iraq fiasco . . .
Sadly true. If Bush bombed Iran, most of them, from Pelosi, Hoyer and Emmanuel almost all the way down, the vast majority of Democrats would be whooping and cheering (and voting) with the Republicans.
Let’s have everyone give their opinion on torture or whatever these “enhanced techniques” are.
And let the Hague take it from there. You think 911 justifies it… then make your case in a court in the Hague. The whole lot of you who were associated with this. EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM.
Isn’t it clear? Waterboarding is drowning; it is not simulated drowning. Hell! effin’! oh! We’ve been on G
hoiuliani-Time, as the boys in dark-blueused tosay since 9-11.Why all the secrecy? If this is so “OK” why not let everyone in on it?
Oh I know, it would tip off OBL and he would change his tactics.
Why is the Taliban our enemy again?
Depends on how the question was asked. If she was asked simply if she had any comment on a classified hearing in which the CIA interrogations were discussed, she would have to say “no comment”. Perhaps she never considered that someone would falsely claim events occurring in a briefing that didn’t occur. And perhaps the reporter never gave any context.
But we do know that two other Congressmen (Rockefeller and Graham), one of whom was supposedly at the same briefing, have said that they were not briefed on water boarding. So there is a clear contradiction here about what was presented at the briefing.
How can anyone trust Pelosi? You can never declare that impeachment is off the table. Isn’t that a signal to commit impeachable offenses? What a putz.
Fer chrissake
EVERYONE KNOWS THAT THE CIA AND THE MILITARY INTERROGATORS WERE DOING WATER BOARDING. (They probably still are in those secret prisons)
THIS IS SETTLED FACT.
Now let’s find out who was involved and who covered it up.
Jefferson Quote:
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.”
Jefferson’s fears about corporations were well founded. The king of england and his corpcohorts in coloinial colonial crime ripped off the colonist. America’s founders understood human nature and addressed it, unlike our current leaders who manipulate it as forwarded by a Danish dude, via men in boxes, instilling thoughts and creating needs?
I beleive the constitution is being violated and this threatens every American when the rule of law is usurped under the color of law furthering the interests of a few, while the many suffer from bad law.
I view their betrayal as a natural outgrowth of their cowardice. All of this is the inevitable blowback from the failure of the Democrats to function as an opposition throughout the Bush years. Did things fall out exactly as the WaPo article suggests? I don’t know. I do know that the Democrats have acquiesced for years in the very worst of what Bush and the Republicans have done.
If ever a Sunday morning post belonged on Digg It this is the one. For firepups who aren’t registered with Digg It the registration link is at top and very user friendly to join up.
Pelosi, Harman, Boxer, and DiFi all bought and paid for by fascist financier, Felix Rohatyn. And OMG, here comes Hillary.
Without exception, this group hates the Founding Fathers. Odds of surviving the present Recession with these clowns are nil to none. And nil just left town.
Looseheadprop has an excellent comment on the nature of their cowardice: http://emptywheel.firedoglake&…..ment-36542
First, its the WaPo who seems to use only Republican sources, and often not very “reliable” ones …. after all, they had sources who would swear that Obama is a Muslim. Sigh.
Second, why can’t the Democratic leadership grow spines and stand up to this BS? Where did “American, Home of the Brave” go? Suddenly we seem to be the home of the weak-kneed and lily-livered, who tremble before imaginary threats? Only cowards torture. Pah.
Actually, if it’s a smear job it’s brilliantly thought out. It puts Steney Hoyer in the jump-seat. And after stripping away the individual, who may be innocent (but awfully pissed off) you get someone who is back in line. Someone may have told the WH that Nancy was finally so pissed off that she was gonna open impeachment hearings…or at least call Goss, Meirs, Yoo and a bevy of others up the Hill to testify on who said what and gave the orders. That might reach Cheney.
Why do I suspect this report is trying to jerk my chain? Maybe because it’s been done over and over by “new revelation”, again. See, says the Right Wing, we don’t look so bad if you consider the other side also knew. I really need more information and above all I need to know the source of all these new revelations.
Do I think Nancy and Jane have clean hands? No. They knew but figured if they kept their collective heads buried in the sand We the People would understand. There is a lot more than playing nice girls that makes Nancy’s strongest position “keep impeachment off the table”. Please, Nancy, it’s not for We the People you are doing that.
The WH likes to throw bombs out to distract us from the news they are really worried about, I wonder just how bad the economic news must be if they would risk throwing a bomb like this out?
After all if Nancy knew the WH spokesperson is sure going to have a hard time denying that Bush knew!
Heck once this news that Nancy knew gets out the American people will assume that Bush knew.
I’m betting the economic news after corporations file their tax returns for the year and report on Christmas sales are going to be horrible.
That and the WH will lower their numbers on employment and how well the economy did in December and November, its almost becoming a tradition.
let’s not tell lies to ourselves, Americans: the blood is on all our hands.
To hell with you!
Many Americans here and elsewhere have done everything in their limited spheres of influence since before bush was installed, to stop him. How dare you frivolously condemn all of us who have suffered the empathetic pain – the years of endless internal screaming that few would hear, warning of the nightmare of the bush regime; doing all we could, but it not being enough to prevent the immeasurable suffering and endless tragedy and disasters that we saw coming before they hit like being tied to railroad tracks watching the headlight approach; who have felt the cuts of the lies and deceptions with virtually no tools or voice to fight back in any significant way; who WERE RIGHT about bush and the republicans all along, and knew and could not stop them!
There are many undeserving of your crass cavalier phrase-slinging. The nation certainly has the permanent stain of massive innocent blood-letting and destruction on its hands – it always will. But not all Americans share in that stain. Without us there would never have been any pushback at all these 7 years and the unchecked criminality and totalitarianism of bush, the republicans, and the Vichy Democrats would have been all the worse. And while we – the bush haters and fighters of all he and the cult of republicanism stand for – continue to suffer the indescribable disgust that bush and his criminal associates (including Vichy dems) have yet to be held accountable for their crimes and treachery, our souls are unstained by your dumbass conviction of all Americans as complicit in bush’s crimes against humanity and US constitution.
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Pach has a new thread upstairs!
If one wnats to support the “leadership” of the Democratic Party, be it Pelosi or Reid, that’s fine. But please base that decision on these people’s voting records and on what issues they have supported George W, Bush desires. I know where I stand on Ms. Pelosi and Mr. Reid. I want them gone.
Yeah!
Yep.
Gives a whole new meaning to:
“Impeachment is off the table”
Conflict of interest?
I like the point you’ve just made! Even if the repugs have leveled this blast against Pelosis, to deflect attention from themselves, you are so correct that if she knew…. how could the shrub not have known?
My thought for his tombstone:
I agree and disagree.
Yes, many of us have opposed all this with great vigor.
But we still bear complicity… it’s our society… it’s like Nazi Germany… we have to accept that it happened on our watch… in spite of all our preferences.
If we do not face that… it could happen again.
Great point, “no blood on my hands” either. I do not, nor did I suffer from oblivity, unlike many who are now just getting the “sand” out of their ears, eyes, nose, coming in from the pleaure of ignorance and picking up the foul stench of death because of flawed logic predicated on lies and greed………
I’m not convinced. It’s pretty clear that the Congressional source is Goss, and that the “other official” is a CIA source who appears to claim first person presence at the briefing. Yet the authors never make any reference to their sources being suspect due to liability issues with destroying the tapes. There is no mention of the fact that Porter Goss, one of the Congresspersons at the meeting was made CIA Director at the time the torture tapes were destroyed mentioned at all in the article.
I don’t think you can separate the release of this information from the revelations about the torture tapes being destroyed.
If the information had come out a month ago, at the height of the debate about water boarding it would be a different story. That would have meant the info was being used to support the continued use of water boarding.
But why release the information now? The intent seems to be to protect Goss and Rodriguez…to suggest that Congress knew all about water boarding from 2003 precisely when the tapes were destroyed.
So we have two astrological convergences here…
2003 ~ “briefing” and “tape destruction”
Dec. 2007 ~ “tape destruction revealed” and “waterboarding briefing revealed”
Marcy asserts these authors are “responsible”…I’m just looking at the facts and the way the article is curiously phrased.
In the instant case, the call for “impeachment” is “patriotism.” I have had the *uck enough!!!
BTW, From the Department of “STFU, assclown”:
The leadership in Congress are all criminals who look the other way or condone torture. Is this a corrupt system or what? The founding fathers had an answer to the abuse and corruption of power. It was called revolution.
tapes were destroyed in Nov of 2005, no?
Bluetoe2
“The founding fathers had an answer to the abuse and corruption of power. It was called revolution.”
I disagree. The founders provided a document setting law for the peaceful exhange of power. A mecahnism to “avoid” war is the gift they gave to us. The second amendment exist for one reason as stated by Jefferson, ..”as a matter of last resort to protect against the tyranny in government.” The founders who had seen war and its horrors did not want war and continual revolution. Ask any Vet if he prefers conflict over peaceful resolution, after seeing the horror. Your statement is wrong?
Thanks for that. Good comment!
yes Sir!
Was’nt CODE PINK Told not to show up at anymore @ the hearing ?..just wondering if they knew this was comeing out (dems) … can you see the signs being held up NOW.
GOD help the voters
fighting against bush, the republicans, and the Vichy dems with the tools at our disposal is not analogous to ‘preferring’ that the bush regime disasters were not unfolding. Perhaps you participated in arm chair fighting with your preferenced hand wringing… others actually altered their lives in order to take concrete steps to stop them.
The ‘we are all guilty anyway position’ is one of the rationalizations that the do-nothingers use to justify not doing anything along with the ‘I’m too powerless to make a difference’ position; when in reality the do nothinger position is just a matter of not caring about anything outside ones own little world.
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Bush lite
ver. 1.7
We have a difference of perspective here. I’m not putting you down. And I think it’s wise not to put me down. Different views… of the same territory. (who is to say who has done more and in what ways?)
i’m with you. we don’t all bear the same responsibility and guilt… but i know very few people who stopped paying their taxes and did everything possible to not be a part of this.
Thanks for a most excellent, and needed, post.
Is it as simple that Harman, Jello Jay and Nancy simply chose not to refute the 2002-03 level power of Cheney and Rove? And that once down that path, they kept going, pretending that there were no other valid responses because they had already chosen the worst one?
My favorite aspect of this chess game is that the vast number of people who will actually get off their asses to vote are the very people who don’t bother to read this site or any other offering a more thorough view of things.
It is not necessary to restrict free speech, as much as it’s important to make it irrelevant. The flood of misreporting by the MSN will smother the few remaining outlets of critical information such as FDL.
How on earth does one fight that uphill battle?
I did.
Is it simply that Harman, Jello Jay and Nancy simply chose not to refute the 2002-03 level power of Cheney and Rove? And that once down that path, they kept going, pretending that there were no other valid responses because they had already chosen the worst one?
Of course, as so many others have said, the whole reason this is coming out now is because the CIA and BushCo want to stop their crimes from being punished. Period.
Don’t give them that satisfaction. If we had to rely on only people with clean hands to do the cleanup, it would never get done.
A-yep. And as has been pointed out, this could well be a Porter Goss smear special, designed to trick us into a Purity Trap.
It sure does to me.
Which is why Republicans and conservatives are among the biggest funders of the Green Party in the US. The Pennsylvania Green Party was in fact 100% Republican funded.
The bottom line here is that the people who released this story to the WaPo are doing so to make Pelosi and the Democrats back off from pursuing the CIA over destruction of torture evidence. Is that what we want? Do we want Pelosi and the Democrats to give up on this?
I certainly hope not.
The Democratic Party acts as if it is 100% A*PAC funded – so what a quandary?
Can’t support the Greens, because Republicans in Pennsylvania support them.
Can’t support Democrats, because they are complicit in torture and a certain powerful Lobby has them calling for another criminal war against a country that poses no threat to the USA.
what to do in order to promenade around as someone pure in moral hygeine?
(D) politics is clearly not the answer anymore, is it?
Pach and Greenwald have led you to the water, and can’t be dismissed with insults, ad hominems, or insinuations that what they say is just “right wing talking points.”
We have a difference of perspective here. I’m not putting you down.
No. In support of Pachacutec’s crap lumping all Americans as guilty by association with bush’s atrocities, you’re too accuse me and others of guilt in bush regime atrocities. I don’t give a rat’s ass what you think, but I reject accusations of associated guilt with the bush regime just because I was born and raised in America. I and others have done what we could to fight back.
And I think it’s wise not to put me down. Different views… of the same territory. (who is to say who has done more and in what ways?)
I don’t have a mere different view than you. You can assume your own guilt all you want – that’s between you and your conscience, but if you do have blood on your hands, that doesn’t mean you can project your guilt onto others. Misery may love company, but keep it to yourself..
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The Congressional Democrats are at one with DC conventional wisdom that we are in a modern version of World War II, which began with the Pearl Harbor-like attack on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center. This is one of those fundamental beliefs that nobody inside the beltway questions. In that mindset what passes for national security trumps all. They suppose that the rest of the country is of their mind, and there were two elections (2002 and 2004) to solidify that belief. The only hope is getting more outsiders who have a better sense of the American public’s view of the matter into power.
Arthur Silbur, at http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/
is on point, prescient, and succinct as ever.
This elides the fact that there is really no such thing as “the Democrats”. There is a Democratic Party, and there are politicians and voters who are members of this political party. We know that the next President is going to be either the Republican or Democratic nominee. And we also know that, in the aggregate, there are a lot more authoritarians and corporatists in the Republican Party than in the Democratic Party.
Thus, short of insurrection, the best chance we have for ameliorating this situation is to support the Democratic Party in 2008. Drawing an analogy between Germans who didn’t actively oppose the Nazis and Americans who vote for Democratic candidates is the worst sort of fear-mongering.
The Congressional Democrats are at one with DC conventional wisdom that we are in a modern version of World War II, which began with the Pearl Harbor-like attack on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center.
it is not useful to be making false accusations. It is true about many democrats, perhaps as many as half. But there are many good democrats in Congress. We need to be more discerning to support the good and flush out the bad.
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I really like your post and think you have a terrific mind BUT and this is a very big but: the americanmoral compass is broken and needs to be fixed. Defending Pelosi who is complicit is wrong even to save the democrats. We must insist that ALL involved be taken to task. Lois Capps my congress critter supports her despite the many warnings. Taking impeachment of off the table is covering for criminal activity.They all need to step down from their committees and be replaced by people who will support the constitution. Buckling in a climate of 9/11 is not a reason. If they had stuck up for the constitution we would still be flyi ng in the nofly zones of Iraq and our moral compass would not be broken. Even when you don’t commit the crime being an accessory is certainly a serious action. At some point the line needs to be drawn or we will keep moving the goal posts.
Pach,
I’m late joining this discussion, but thanks a million for this post. I’ve been thinking of the “Out, damn spot” line for a week now, thinking of Pelosi and her taking impeachment off the table. She will spend the rest of her days trying to wash that spot out. And now we find that she was complicit in waterboarding. Shame!!! She should immediately resign her leadership position, and so should any other Democrats in leadership who were complicit. Otherwise, the Democratic party has become morally bankrupt.
Bob in HI
Well, it is about time that someone who is listened to says and has published what I have been saying for over two years. I guess you have to be a woman to be heard here, and God know what to be heard anywhere else. This all could have been stopped in 2005 if there had been any leader anywhere – Congress, Media, or Blogs that was willing to say what was very clear from August of 2002. I do not have a record for that period because I was on Newsgroups back then. But in 2005 I was saying just what is being now said.(look it up on my blog archives, http://1thirteen3.blogspot.com ) That is two years and how many lives – Iraqi and Americans.
So now what do we do? In 2005 it was Kos that was hand wringing and saying we could not just get out. We had to fix our mistake said Kos and Company. Looks fixed to me, how about you? Not. Now Matt Stroller is saying we have to stop the war by killing it with a thousand pricks – you can make your own pun.
As I said in 2005. It all fine and good setting here in safety, counting angels on a pinhead, while others are dying because we just don’t get it. Bush does not get it, he skipped out on his chance to really understand war and join me and others in Vietnam. Most of the Neocons do not get it for the same reason. The rest of America does not get it becasue they do not want to. We just slip into a voluntary amnesia induced by the Anesthetizers – those who entertain us with sports, TV, Music, and Movies.
Yes there is blood on our hand, and like the Lady, who would have thought there was so much blood in them.
In our society we jump to use the phrase, Kick Some A–. We think that war is a game to win, we have to be # one. Well we are number one. We export more weapons to the rest of the world than anyone. We are number one in fighting lame wars against third world countries. We are first at supporting dictators and giving them chemical and biological weapons, looking the other way while they use those weapons on their own people, and then going to war against them when it suits us.
Yeah, I want to be on that winning team, don’t you? Well we are.
No equivication for Pelosi or Reed. We must demand that everything come to a hault until the troops start coming home. No meassured steps. The lives of our troops are more important that an office or a job. There are no excuses. We can all seek other offices and jobs, those who fall for a useless cause can not seek another life. Enough real blood was actually on my hands as I worked as a medic during the 68 Tet offensive, I need no more.
I am willing to go without my VA Disabilty for a couple of months if it means the troops get home one day earlier. Sending cookies is not sacrifice. I send cookies – I liked cookies from home in 67/68 – but that is not sacrifice. Shut the governemnt down. Stop the subsidy payments to agribusiness, stop it all.
The democratic “leadership” needs to get the message loudly. I blog in anonimity and am deleted when I say things like there are blood on all of our hands. You have the platform. Use it. Everyday the war drags on is just more blood. “Out Out damned spot.”
Well, I’m glad Pach and FDL are on board the knowledge boat regarding that Pelosi et al are COMPLICIT in sanctioning rendition, Guantanamo and other sites, and the acts of torture themselves.
That’s good. You are covering it.
But, you use it to shill for donations?
What ARE you folks in here becoming?
A MONEY raising arm of a progressive lite consortium?
Sorry, but FDL, I’m a torches and pitchfork kinda progressive, and I don’t LIKE the fact that you seem to be running more fundraising schticks than PBS does!!!!!!!
With THIS particular issue, I’d think you’d be spearheading a smear of the MSM, and organizing a sit in in front of Pelosi’s house with Code Pink, and BLANKETING CA with this news that Pelosi SOLD US OUT on impeachment, cuz SHE’S IMPEACHABLE!!!!!!
I would have thought, that FDL would have SWARMED CA with a drive to recall Pelosi, censure her, and hold the CA DEM PARTY accountable for her sell out of our Rebublic!!!
But all I get is a fundraising pitch.
Should I just cut the check to A*P*C?
FDL has gone progressive lite.
Your beltway elitism is showing under yer silken robes, gals.
What a shame, you COULD have led a movement for the people, by the people.
Instead, it appears yer stuffin the wallets of the same-o -ame 1% who think they lord over us all.
Your change is of very little value to we the people . . . your change will likely benefit YOU, and a few, and not the masses.
I’m glad we had this talk, FDL.
But yer fired. Yer not operating in our best interests.
Good luck with the supper parties and the cocktail weiners.
N tip the help, please, after yer done beating them to death.
It’s what the royals always do.