Contrary to what you have been saying, and Mayer’s article in the New Yorker Rendition has been going on for a long time. We did it with the Achille Lauro terrorists, with Noriega, and with drug traffickers during the Reagan and Bush era.

then please give me the references to show that clinton’s program did not start with him.

because the people accused of the achille laura hijacking (except for Abu Abbas) were tried in italian courts. noriega was tried in a usa court and is imprisoned here. none of the people you list were taken to egypt for torture and/or executions – as was done by clinton.

i certainly may be wrong, but your examples do not show that. reading mayer’s article it does sound like this was a new program – whether or not similar (or worse things have been done previously)

… and it gets worse. you say:

but the ORDER certainly didn’t authorize the return of individuals to be tortured and killed. In fact it had restraints against that occurring. The receiving state had to certify that they would place the individual on trial and wouldn’t torture them

from jane mayer’s article:

Technically, U.S. law requires the C.I.A. to seek “assurances” from foreign governments that rendered suspects won’t be tortured. Scheuer told me that this was done, but he was “not sure” if any documents confirming the arrangement were signed.

and if anyone was claiming ignorance as to what happened to the people we sent to egypt – they were lying after Talaat Fouad Qassem disappeared (and was presumed executed) and then what happened to the suspects kidnapped in albania:

Over the next few months, according to the Journal, Albanian security forces, working with U.S. agents, killed one suspect and captured Attiya and four others. These men were bound, blindfolded, and taken to an abandoned airbase, then flown by jet to Cairo for interrogation. Attiya later alleged that he suffered electrical shocks to his genitals, was hung from his limbs, and was kept in a cell in filthy water up to his knees. Two other suspects, who had been sentenced to death in absentia, were hanged.

Extraordinary rendition is very different from this program. It was originally conceived as a way to bring drug traffickers and others to trial in the US without the fuss of extradition

Selise:

that was not what clinton’s program was. i beg with you, please everyone read jane mayer’s article in the new yorker. or at least read this bit i posted this morning at emptywheel. clinton’s program was about kidnapping people and then taking them to egypt to be tortured and/or executed.

PLEASE read what I wrote in context. Contrary to what you have been saying, and Mayer’s article in the New Yorker Rendition has been going on for a long time. We did it with the Achille Lauro terrorists, with Noriega, and with drug traffickers during the Reagan and Bush era.

I suspect that Extraordinary Rendition also preceded Clinton’s term as well…certainly the US forces would turn over suspected VC to the ARVN intelligence services who would have no qualms about torturing them. During the invasion of Kuwait Iraqi prisoners were eventually held by Kuwait. During WWII troops who served with the Germans in occupied areas (French, Belgian, Danish, Eastern European) were given over to the countries that were liberated. Their fate was not pleasant.

I will not defend what occurred in the Clinton Era with rendition, but the ORDER certainly didn’t authorize the return of individuals to be tortured and killed. In fact it had restraints against that occurring. The receiving state had to certify that they would place the individual on trial and wouldn’t torture them. Of course, whether such promises are treated as just a piece of paper by the states in question is a huge loophole. [And BTW It’s pretty clear from the testimony of those involved in the attacks on the US Embassies in East Africa that the plans for those attacks were well under way by the time of these renditions…the renditions were not the cause of the attacks].

My point was what is going on here isn’t “Extraordinary Rendition” to a third country. It’s just the opposite. It’s RENDITION to US TERRITORY (or areas that are under US control) and the interrogation and torture is by Americans.

http://www.c-span.org/homepage…..iveDays=30

The only bad thingie is that this crazistuff seems to drive the fringe to hucksterbeezlebubba.

As a much wiser person expressed it better above-thread – what. a. lineup. of candydates!

Unbelievagable!

But blackmail doesn’t work if you reveal the information publicly.

it does if you only reveal the tip of the iceberg to let your target know you mean business.

Extraordinary rendition is very different from this program. It was originally conceived as a way to bring drug traffickers and others to trial in the US without the fuss of extradition

that was not what clinton’s program was. i beg with you, please everyone read jane mayer’s article in the new yorker. or at least read this bit i posted this morning at emptywheel. clinton’s program was about kidnapping people and then taking them to egypt to be tortured and/or executed.