Last nite, something odd happened at a party in San Francisco. A bunch of us middle-aged gay men were hanging out on the verandah, smoking and slurping up second-hand smoke while we discussed the relative merits of the three Democratic front-runners. My friend from Texas (a longtime Democratic activist who was at the Ambassador Hotel when Robert Kennedy was shot) was making the case for Barack Obama: change; turn the page from the Clinton Wars; bring a new generation of committed, activist voters into the Democratic Party and reward their participation with a nominee closer to their age, lifestory, and views. I was making the John Edwards case, when another person joined us and sat down.
It was the point early in the party when you’re still sober enough to remember to include newly arrived people in the conversation, so I turned to the newcomer and said, "We’re discussing the vast array of presidential candidates. Have you a preference?"
The gentleman adjusted his rabbit-fur jacket collar, crossed his legs dramatically, and declaimed: "Well, if I were forced to cast a ballot today, I am quite certain I should vote for… Mike Huckabee." My fiance stirred quietly at my side, in the universally-recognized-by-couples signal for: We are at a party, damnit, not having some blog conversation, so behave yourself, please.
But I had to know — here was the phenomenon staring me in the face. The Huckabee voter is elusive in San Francisco. That this supporter was also wearing a rabbit-fur pillbox hat and Uggs could not dissuade my natural curiosity: What makes people support Mike Huckabee? Specifically, what could possibly lead an African-American homosexual who lives in Pacific Heights and Brussels to support Mike Hucklebee? I decided to take the plunge into an already rather extended conversational pause. Did I mention that our little group on the verandah had nervously dismissed Huckster as a joke just moments earlier due to his plans to quarantine at least half of us for HIV infection?
"Wow," I said calmly. "What makes you like Mike?" And what I learned is trouble for any Democrat who may oppose Mike Huckabee in the general election.
"Well, first of all, he’s a preacher, and my momma taught me to always respect the preacher. The preacher is a very respected man in the community I was reared in, and I think it would be wonderful to have a preacher in the White House." This startled me, since I would not think "preacher-trustworthiness" crosses cultural and racial divides in America. Apparently, it does.
"But," I replied, "he’s not a preacher any more. He’s a politician now. Does that make you support him any less?"
"Oh, no, Mike Huckabee was called to politics by the Lord. He didn’t want to go into politics, and he fought going into politics, since it’s such a dirty and nasty business. But he was called, just like he was called to the preacherhood, and a good man cannot ignore a call from the Lord." This was disturbing, as I think eight years of a president who thinks he’s got a hotline to A Higher Father is quite enough. I realized, though, that this inoculated Huckster from my claim he’s now a politican: he’s a politican, but he can’t help it, it’s God’s Will. And God’s Will seems particularly resonant with people of Faith.
"Okay, then!" I said, as I noticed some more stirring to my immediate right, and corrected my tone to one of curious inquiry rather than interrogation. "What else besides being a preacher do you find attractive about him?" Here, I hoped, we might pin down some Views on Issues, elusive though they’d been in the discussion so far. And I was not disappointed.
"Well, you always know what he stands for. Regardless of the issue, he decides what he believes and he sticks to it. And he stands for what he believes in. And you always know what that is. He is very sure of himself, and I find that comforting in this world." This went on, with little specificity, for some time, until a kind-hearted soul rescued our conversation.
What I learned, though, is important to our eventual nominee. There are important lessons for our nominee (and the consulting class s/he will inevitably be surrounded with) especially if s/he’s facing Huckabee in the general election. I don’t want to extrapolate and speculate too much based on one conversation with one member of a unique (did I mention the rabbit-fur pillbox hat?) demographic, but several things struck me.
1. People retain connections to their roots, and they express these connections in the voting booth in ways unimaginable to the Mark Penns of this world. While most demographers would slip my co-conversationalist into tidy marketing slots based upon the obvious (rabbit-fur pillbox hat, expressive and effeminate gay mannerisms, two homes) there are also, underneath those easy pigeonholes, ways for candidates to reach people that have more to do with what their momma told them growing up. And almost everyone had a momma who told us something. Some of us, apparently, had mommas who taught us to always respect the preacherman. And that preacherman-respect carries into support for Huckabee in ways we might not expect, from voters we might not plan on losing. Voters we don’t plan on losing are voters we forget to appeal to in the general election. Not all of them wear rabbit-fur pillbox hats. Almost all of them had mommas who taught them something — and that something might advantage our opposition in ways we simply don’t expect.
2. People hear things about candidates through their own networks, and these networks run alongside and, sometimes, completely apart from both the Traditional and New Media information superhighways. We’re all familiar — and now newly re-acquainted, thanks so much, Mrs Howell! — with the lies and idiocy being peddled about Barack Obama, Islam, and the madrassa. We’ve all heard the RightWing’s craziness about Hillary’s crush on her body-lady. Everyone’s heard Ann Coulter’s slurs on John Edwards. But — and I write as someone who tries very hard to keep up on the news about my own team’s PrezCandis and those of the GOP — this "called by the Lord into politics" meme about Huckabee is a new one to me. It casts Mike as one who resisted the temptation to leave his religious calling, until he realized he had another calling from His Higher Father. Here we have a candidate who never sought the dirty, nasty political battleground.
Doesn’t that lay down a tidy contrast between The New Man from Hope and, oh, say, The Lady Who Married The First Fellow From Hope and, then, political to the core, planned their conquest of America via our politics over the next thirty years? And this story, about which my co-conversationalist was quite sure and very willing to expound on at great length, is something I had never heard. Oh, sure, I’ve heard that Mike told Jerry Falwell that if his current campaign takes off, "it’ll be a God thing." But I had not heard that his entire political career was due to having been called by God. Which means, of course, that there’s an information stream about Mike Huckabee that’s traveling routes we in the blogosphere are unaware of — routes that might just have a lot to do with the momma who taught respect for the preacherman.
3. "Standing for something" doesn’t mean a Huckabee voter needs to know what the candidate stands for, or agree with the candidate if s/he does know. "Standing up for what he believes in" is its own value, one that stands singularly in the absence of knowing any of the candidate’s specific views. Knowing the candidate’s particular views — and I pressed a little, in a pleasant tone as one who really wanted to know — is unimportant to holding high the value of "standing for something." To me, this has manifested itself in our Current Occupant at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue as willful and intransigent stubbornness, but to some voters (okay, in this case one, but I’ll bet there are others, don’t you suppose?) the American Value of stick-to-it-iveness reigns high.
We saw this, of course, in 2004, when flip-flopping became the charge du jour. I wonder, though, if Americans are ready for a president to whose lips easily come the phrase, "I was wrong." Sure, I like the retrospective and considerative aspect of mentality it illuminates. I want a thinking person in the White House. But, I wonder, would America rather have someone who knows what s/he knows, stands for what s/he believes, and sticks to his/her guns? People who heard Mike Huckabee this morning say he wouldn’t recant his statement on quarantining AIDS patients — in 1992! — probably said, "Good for him, don’t go back on your word!" when clearly the correct, thinking-person’s response was "I was wrong then, and I don’t believe that now."
That’s what scares me about going up against Mike Huckabee in the general election.
Sure, Rudi Giuliani is the President I most fear of the GOP candidates. But, based on last night’s conversation, Mike Huckabee is the candidate I most fear of the GOP candidates. I learned he has a crossover, underhanded, apolitical, stubborn, faith-based, unreal appeal unlike, perhaps, any of our Democratic candidates. And I’m scared of him. Thanks to the gentleman in the rabbit-fur pillbox hat.
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TSF!!
Hey Teddy!
TSF!
Hey, Teddy!
Don’t these folks remember that George the Younger was also “called by the Lord” to attack Iraq and commit other absurd atrocities? And that didn’t work out quite so well, did it?
Teddy! This is just too weird to be believed. I am still trying to wrap my head around a black, gay Huckabee supporter. There is some serious cognitive dissonance going on there.
Wow! just . . . wow!
TSF — my compliments on your restraint, sir (and to your fiance) as well. At least I do not recall hearing about any violence by a white middle-aged gay man against a black gay man at a party in SF…
Guess I will have to take a survey among my African-American friends; those from Louisiana are not finding Obama appealing, leaning instead towards Edwards, or least that was their opinion 6 months ago. Are they leaning towards Huckster now in more than SF? Yeesh…
Hello, everyone!
This was too bizarre a conversation not to share with the ‘Lake. Usually, I try for funny, or serious. But the inexplicably bizarre has had ahold of me since yesterday evening, and I had to get it out. You all, are, therefore, my victims.
It was a swell hat.
Hi TSF, very interesting post. Do you think there’s any chance at all that the gentleman with the swell hat was snarking? His reasoning just boggles my mind!
Teddy, it is exactly the kind of thing that would be talked around the Sunday dinner table – and I do think of your Sunday night posts as the Lake’s Sunday Night Dinner Table.
Hey Teddy, sometimes I get thrills going to parties and backing an unpopular view or candidate just to see how others react.
Another thing to consider: At least this fellow was not a rabid supporter that flock to the Guiliani or Thompson candidates. Sometimes republican supporters thrill in drilling spikes of discomfort with others during conversation by backing condemnable viewpoints.
“It was a swell hat.”
Yes, well it had to be pretty special to hold all that craziness inside the head it sat on.
Well, if it was snark, I guess it’s found a home….
Dinner? Whatcha cookin?
Teddy’s serving up a huckster supporter for us to chew on. I’m not cooking tonight.
*sigh* At least you only get the look, I’ve gotten the elbow… ;-)
Ha! When I’m out and someone brings up politics apparently my eyes light up or something, because the look on my friends faces is “Oh, no, she’s gonna go on a political rant. Again!” And they’re usually right. ;)
this may not be as bad as it seems. People like my parents have already decided that Ghoul is their man. He’s gonna to blow up the A-raabs, keep taxes low, put the illegals into death camps, keep taxes low, extend the death penalty to include quality-of-life offenses, and keep taxes low. They’re getting increasingly angry at the fundies for not getting on board and throwing their support to Ghoul. If Huckabee gets the nomination, they’re all staying home. If Ghoul gets the nomination, I presume that many fundies will stay home. This may all work out quite nicely.
note to self: avoid any impulse to purchase a rabbit-fur hat (self answers – wtf are you talking about?)
There will always be flaky outliers, but I gotta admit, that’s a strange one. Backing a man because he stands “for something” – without knowing what that something is?
fwiw, I do not find myself in fear of an epidemic of this type of “reasoning”.
TOW, Ya owe me a Coke… ;-)
Well, I see you got a new boyfriend
You know, I never seen him before
Well, I saw him
Makin’ love to you
You forgot to close the garage door
You might think he loves you for your money
But I know what he really loves you for
It’s your brand new leopard-skin pill-box hat
Doesn’t Dylan always ahev soemthing to say for every occasion?
Weird, Teddy. But entertaining. I guess weird usually is entertaining. For me anyway.
Yes I do. *passes can to CTuttle*
CT, it has been my experience that the elbow is deployed only after the look has gone ignored.
Rabbit skin. Leorad skin. What’s the difference?
Ya don’t mind if I freshen it up with some rum, wouldya? ;-)
The under the radar info is hard to track down, but it helps when people like Ralph Reed hand it to you.
I don’t know what Reed is up to these days, but somebody’s pushing this swill.
Are you sure Pill Box wasn’t playing with you?
Leopard (sp)
Does the spell check feature work yet?
Harvey!
(Oh, wait — it was a hat, not a whole rabbit. Never mind.)
Oh, those SF get-togethers. Just when you think you know everyone and everyone’s friends and everyone’s politics . . . bam!
Far be it from me to argue with “my momma taught me to always respect the preacher,” but MY momma always argued with the preacher. Sunday dinner conversations were always about the sermon, sometimes in agreement and sometimes not (more often not, given the conservative nature of our preacher at the time). Respecting the preacher does not, in my book, mean agreeing in every particular with what the preacher said. To me, it’s more about dealing honestly and openly with the preacher: “you know, when you said X, that really bothered me and this is why . . .” or “when you said Y, I really appreciated it, because . . .”
I suppose that’s why I like the ‘Lake. There’s lots of respect around here, even for a preacher.
If Huckabee *is* the GOP nominee, then progressive preachers are going to have a lot of work to do next summer, and so are non-ordained progressive Christians.
Never fear about Huckabee, Teddy. As Rich Lowry points out, he is “the tribune of the religious left.”
I shit you not.
Slow learner… *g*
I wish I had a hat like that. Maybe Santa will bring me one for Christmas. You know, I’ve always trusted Santa because he knows what he believes and he believes it. God wanted him to be Santa, he didn’t seek it out for himself. He was a just a good and holy man at first and now, Saint Nicholas.
heard from my doesn’t-follow-politics-closely Republican friend this morning and she says “people will vote for Romney or Huckabee because of their deep moral convictions”… she is not black and does not wear a rabbit fur pillbox hat… but she is a church-going type o’ woman…
I’m still thinking Romney has a fighting chance and Ghouliani isn’t out of this yet…
Do you recall the adulation-of-Shrub around “knowing what he stands for” during 2000 and 2004? Even though he never said squat in 2000 about Saddam Hussein, and as little again about Social Security in 2004?
Yet people thought they knew “what he stands for.”
It’s a marketing issue, not an issues issue.
Freshen away! :)
Does the spell check feature work yet?
It is on the list, along with the preview and the edit features. The tech guys are still working on the hanging and trying to prevent (knocking on wood) any more crashes. They will work their way down the list as they fix the biggies at the top.
I live in Sacramento — only 90 minutes from SF. Before that, I lived in LA. But I grew up in Oklahoma, leaving only after college. I have my own mind — not my parents’. My father is now deceased, but I disagree with my mother a LOT. In short — I am an individual person — I have my own mind.
I totally agree with you — most Americans “think” as this man does. But he should ask himself, as a gay man: what does mama say about gay folks? Why doesn’t Huckabee’s stance on gays (that they should be quarantined) turn him against Huckabee?
WHY DOES HE STILL SUPPORT A MAN WHO THINKS HE IS EVIL JUST BECAUSE MAMA LIKES HUCKABEE?
Sorry, but this gets me SO riled up!
Teddy, did he look like this?
Hey, listen. I made an observation earlier today in another post. The response, I felt, was underwhelming. Yes, it was off topic. But the late night crowd seems less constrained by that topic stuff. I was wondering if I could run it by you guys. Yeah, I know. It seems like begging. But I’m not proud.
Heh, wanna beer? ;-)
“he is ‘the tribune of the religious left.’”
Says a lot for where Mr. Lowry’s religion is at. Calling Mr. Torquemada on the white courtesy phone.
Suzanne – will we get a “quote this comment” button?
LooHoo —
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
(Sorry for the wasted post; I couldn’t help it.)
Good enough. Just asking. I need that sooooo bad(ly).
How ya doin’ Suzanne? Don’t taze me, bro’.
OC, I don’t know. If not, there are workarounds, cut and paste, blockquote, italics, etc.
shell, it was hard not to get riled, but I figured I would try to understand.
Or be snookered, as the case may be.
oh, I’m aware of that, but the conversation just gets very disjointed unless everyone is practicing those techniques…
hey BFL, i’ve given up my bitch with a badge gig. but i still maintain my DFWMF attitude
*Joan Crawford, Mommie Dearest “Don’t fuck with me, fellas”.
“It’s not my first time at the rodeo.”
Bring out . . . the comfy chair!
BFL, Firefox browser comes with spell checker built in. Saves my cookies many a night, especially now that preview is not fixed yet.
She still has her Cuffs… *sigh*
has anybody seen this youtube video about the NIE?.. spew warning:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7fyiGTJqzWU
It’s entirely because Huckabee doesn’t love NAFTA.
The maniacs of “fiscal” Wingnuttia are as ideologically demented as the “cultural” wingnuts. Which is why I think Huckabee won’t win. Even if he gets the nomination he won’t have the money to win in the general.
I just get the feeling that you couldn’t give that up if ya tried.
DFWMF will go over well at gay parties in Pacific Heights.
I know. I hope as folks get used to the system, they start doing the couple extra steps to help the conversation make sense. Of course, back in the old day, when the lake was on blogger and used haloscan for commenting, well, this is a huge improvement over that.
I am back. A few interesting posts you may want to read. One is on the backlog of disability applications and what’s happening to the applicants while they wait. Other is just assorted evil.
OC, bottom of the last thread I left you a note about quoting comments.
I think he was jerking you around. Nobody in SF is that dense. ;-)
Well…very interesting parties you go to, Teddy. Respect for the preacherman is all well and good, so long as one remembers he is still a human and as such prone to be wrong. Remember all the priests who molested children, knowing that the ones they chose had parents who would never question the word of the priest over their own flesh and blood. Nevertheless it would not be a bad idea to tune in to the fundamentalist communication lines to see what is getting around. Forewarned is fore-armed, as they say.
When my youngest daughter was around nine she would run through the house yelling, “No Wire Hangers!” She is the one that is going to be a nurse. :)
Let’s hear it!
I think he was jerking you around. Nobody in SF is that dense. ;-)
DiFi lives in SF.
I agree with you on that. The money boys have always controlled the GOP with an iron fist and Huckabee is too much of a populist and not enough pro-investor. I really think it comes down to Romney and Ghouliani for the Rethugs (or else we have the pleasure of watching a fully blown civil war in the Rethug Party).
Teddy, lots of what I’ve read about Huckabee, quoting former aides and/or acquaintances, says he is a grasping, greedy, self-absorbed individual. How do you think The Hat would square that with his image of the Huckster?
OC, if someone replies to another comment, that info appears in blue just above the comment. Clicking on that will take you , but immediately, to the quoted comment and the back button instantly takes you back again. It’s the best solution until the quote button returns.
It’s my fucking birthday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Howdy, Ma’am!
Meanwhile, they’re SOL!
OT..Loo Hoo did you read the latest eriposte? It is quite interesting?
ON-T..I agree..The Huckster may be the hardest to beat in the general election. In the Thug primary, he will run as the far right christianist ordained by God-a to be President..in the General he will run on American family christian values and populism; which was basically he record as governor. The populist streak is the thing that scare the shit out of the “money” Thugs and that is why the Club for Growth is running attack ads against him. Huckabee is intelligent, poorly educated, intellectually lazy, ambitious and a good salesman. Potential trouble.
Happy forking birthday BFL.
Happy birthday BFL!
Sounds like you are doing fun things on your birthday. Happy!
Sweetie, I know how to do it (I was teaching it the first or 2nd day)… my point is, unless everyone participates, conversations don’t make sense as you read down the thread… without an endless amount of scrolling… generally wrecks the “conversational” tone that we’ve developed here…
and yes, it’s better than haloscan… but not by much.
Happy B-Day! It’s my wife’s too… *g*
Happy effing b’day, BFL.
OMFG. You might be my brother if your birthday is today. Just sent you a gift cert, hope you like it.
You can send it back to me for my birthday tomorrow, BFL.
Hope it’s been a good one!
BFL, I’ve sent you a birthday present too! (Well, a FB friend request — but hey, it’s the thought that counts, right?)
Happy birthday to BFL, and also to Mrs. CT. Has she brought out the jell-o shots yet, CT?
Just imagining my mom doing jello-shots for her birthday (today), gives me giggle fits just thinking about it.
Yes, but I make a distinction between denseness and evil.
The Club for Growth guys are gunning for Huck because he raised state taxes while Gov…. the mortal sin for an Repug politician is raising taxes even if the Feds has cut their share to the states starving the beast.
The wingnuts do not like his populists stance…. btw… the Huck also worked for televangelist James Robison.
BFL, here’s my sprout’s favorite birthday song. Not sure about the tune, but he got it from watching a cartoon:
It’s your birthday,
Make a mess,
It’s your birthday,
Wear a dress!
Happy fucking birthday, dude?!
BTW, TSF, this DKos post is pretty representative of the opinions I’ve gotten from African-Americans here in the midwest, which makes me wonder if there’s an age component at play.
Youngsters are less likely to be wound into the church dynamic as tightly as their parents and grandparents, putting a premium on voter registration and GOTV among youngsters in minority communities.
Oh, we’re going to see that fully blown GOP civil war. Huckabee’s going to take Iowa, and we’ll see what happens next. (Recall Pat Buchanan in NH in 1992.) I don’t think he’ll get the nomination, but the bloodbath will be something to behold.
The only question I’ve got is whether the Democratic party will be fighting its own civil war at the same time.
As does Teh Speaker.
Well, Happy Birthday to you!!
Hey BFL. Here’s a birthday cake you can wear your Hawaiian shirts for. Happy Birthday!
Much better response than before. I’m so happy. Thank you all. And I found out i may have a long lost brother. And I’m born the same day as CT’s wife. My apolitical wife, while not understanding the attraction, got me Sicko. My kids baked me a cake and had a pisser icing it. Pretty low key. Always has been. especially coming this close to Xmas and all. Thanks again. And happy b’day to the wife, CT.
That’s what’s kept me from applying for it. I’m not fully disabled by this, but the potential is there if it ever gets so bad that i can’t control it without heavy narcotics. So i’m working as long as i’m able and the thing about working in pharmacy? I’m more aware of my painkilling options than most. That and i pay attention to the alarm bells when the flare ups start.
But ye gods, the hell so many people go through just to get some decent assistance because they don’t have my options!
They didn’t survive the nite…! ;-)
Spekaing of the Hawaiian shirt, I gotta get a load out. Will be back.
Dibs on the ocotpus (assuming the birthday kids don’t want it)!
I applied for disability once, got turned down, and while I was working on the second application got offered my current job with lots of flextime and absolutely no lifting.
OT
A hit job on Hillary in the LA Times Friday… It’s about women in the same demographic a Hillary rejectng her as their candiate and why.
OT: If Hillary gets elected, what are the chances that she’d prosecute BushCo for war crimes, given that her old man was involved in renditions?
I can’t see not working unless i absolutely can not do so. If i couldn’t do anything physically i’d look for some work from home computer job. I have to keep my mind active. I hate desk jobs–but it’s better than doing nothing.
Just read it, but I’ll have to go back and read the links. I don’t really understand what triangulating means, seems like circlulating would be more effective.
is that a rhetorical question? if not, ZIP.
Her husband was the Iran-contra bygones Preznit. I’m sure we’ll see no action on the war criminals from a second Clinton Administration. Prosecute Poppy’s friends? No.
I thought that might be the case when you were talking about it last night. Can’t see the fascination myself, did a few the last time I was in the Quarter. They sell them in syringes so you can walk around with them, and it just looks kinda stupid. Guess I’m just getting old…
I heart Jane Fonda.
If the current problems continue as bad as they are now, I may need to stop the day job and apply for disability again. But I still do a lot of tutoring and teach a Hebrew school class.
She always had certain elan to her… ;-)
Looseheadprop had some thoughts on that here and here earlier today over at Emptywheel’s island in the Lake.
Hippo birdies, BeerfartLiberal, who may have the laughing-est handle on the ‘Lake. Every time I see it, I smile. Or laugh!
Jane’s been slimed by the GOP for far longer than Hillary has been.
I love Jane Fonda.
If everybody’s Mama taught them to “respect the preacherman” then why are they so many splinter churches in the South? In East Texas there’s a different Pentacostal, Evangelical. Church of God, Primitive Baptist church spaced evenly along the highway….just about as far as you can toss a cow-chip. Some Mama, or her testy son, decidin’ that they didn’t agree with the preacherman (not to mention the tax advantages of being on the salary of the church).
And if this young black homosexual was so attuned with “respectin’ the preacherman” then why wasn’t he in one of those 10-step programs for exorcising his inner hedonistic demon? Isn’t that what almost all the “preachermen” in the country assert that homosexuals should do?
I think either this guy was takin’ the piss out of you guys…or he’s wholly unrepresentative of things. Of course, that’s my rational self talking. But if people can be as deluded as this fellow then NO DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE will ever beat the Republicans unless they “become a Republican”. There would be no rational set of characters that would attract them.
Oh, now there’ll be trouble. *g*
Wife joins Army after husband loses leg in Iraq
from HoustonChronicle
More than a year after infantryman Alejandro Albarran lost part of his right leg to a blast in Iraq, he still hasn’t decided whether he’ll stay in the Army. But his wife decided to join after he was injured.
All good points, well made, c’ape.
And I thought Hat Dude was incomprehensible!?
Which is why I am starting to wonder if there was snark involved last night.
Circus Maximus: the clown car of American politics
Raising right hand and swearing that IS the title of the article.
My wife drinks only once in a blue moon, it was quite the shocker… I asked if it was the onset of her Mid-Life Crisis…! But, who am I to object… ;-)
Yep, that’s been my opinion for quite a while now, ever since I saw him this summer on Colbert and other shows.
OMFG! We have been outdone.
Someone said (sorry can’t remember who, but someone I trust)that when Clinton rendered prisoners, it was to countries that had extradition treaties with us, and the prisoner was a citizen of that country. It was on Marcy’s thread about Pelosi this morning.
Hubby just came in and said Dexter is on. See you in an hour.
thought you would appreciate that, mary mcc
It was looseheadprop — links @ my 104
IOIYAP(reacherman)
Hey, if a gal can’t party on her birthday, especially when it falls on a weekend!
Still, usually never a good idea to ask a woman if she’s having a mid-life crisis, or if her hormones are acting up, or tell her her pants are looking a bit snug. Just some FYI :0)
Thanks Peterr!
madmommy, asking a woman if she is having a mid-life crisis usually results in a sharp elbow to the offender. maybe CT’s elbow was from that and not his missing ‘the look’.
Ditto that, madmommy. Unless, of course, one has a death wish or dislike of their personal appearance, then by all means go ahead and tell a woman of a certain age she needs to exercise more.
Yupper. That’s the biggest negative for him with the national GOP bigwigs — and it’s also why he’s lagging in the fundraising; the big corporate donors to the GOP do NOT want to help elect anyone who might be making them actually pay taxes.
Yes, it’s ironic that the one thing which would mark him as a decent human being on our side is the very thing that’s most likely to deny him the nomination.
Steve Clemons over at The Washington Note — usually a bastion of serious thinking — has an interesting post up, detailing Mrs. Huckabee’s email exchanges with a couple of constiutents and reporters.
You can’t make this stuff up.
I still think the huckster has troubles with his rapist buddy he got released from prison. That kinda trouble hopefully will stick like glue to huckster.
Didja know that Mrs Huckabee’s maiden name was McCain?
hubris alert:
CIA official in inquiry called a ‘hero’
from Amer – Herald Trib
http://www.iht.com/articles/20…..0intel.php
A man who spent a career in the shadows as head of the Central Intelligence Agency’s clandestine service has been thrust into the spotlight for his role in the destruction of interrogation videotapes.
Teddy, McCain? oh, that is too funny.
Headin’ to bed . . . g’nite, all!
Teddy, I think Hillary may well go after these criminals. Why do you think the entire machine is after her, and has been since before she announced?
idiocy alert:
Flying Humans, Hoping to Land With No Chute
from NYT > Home Page by MATT HIGGINS
Jeb Corliss wants to jump from a helicopter and land without using a parachute.
…a rabbit fur collar?????????????????????????? puleeze…
Hi Spiderpaws.
howdy
Tex, you just got a h/t news headline for that article. Thanks.
Like Taylor Marsh and also to some extent Digby, I am fascinated by the Clinton derangement syndrome. It effects both the right and the left for polar opposite political reasons and ia totally unchanged by data. I guess Richard Mellon-Scaife and others got their monies worth for the $84 million spent in the 80’s and early 90’s.
g’nite peterr
hey spidey
and in the dept of unsurprising news …..
2 top polluters oppose caps in Bali (AP)
from Yahoo! News
AP – The world’s top two polluters, the U.S. and China, say they are not ready to commit to mandatory caps on greenhouse gases.
Yep… the wingnuts also are calling the Huck soft on crime because of that…
It truly is the thought that counts.
But I was having trouble confirming those friend things. So if you don’t hear from me, it’s not ’cause I was ignoring you. I’m giving Suzanne a rest after walking my computer-illiterate,incompetent ass through the sign up.
Thanks Suzanne!
we can only hope he is too hot not to cool down
‘dem caps are fer little people
damn. at this rate we’re gonna destroy the planet (or at least make it uninhabitable for mammalian life).
I’m giving Suzanne a rest after walking my computer-illiterate,incompetent ass through the sign up.
tis a liberal ass so was well worth the trouble, BFL
Heh, I earned both for my efforts…! I just finished serving her, in bed… And my daughter just decorated her cake…! She’s still hanging… *g*
real empires make their own reality. shrub and Hu have the supernatural power to simply will away rising sea levels
don’t know how much the late night crew is interested in the week’s committee hearings, but just put up this week’s list.
Well, I got that birthday wishes i shamelessly begged for (or “for which I shamelessly begged” as the nuns insisted). Got my wash out. Now it’s time to thank you all, again.
I’m with the people who say Mr. Pill Box Hat was funnin’ on Teddy. Just too weird. I guess I gotta go to work tomorrow.
they may make their own reality, but that’s not where i live.
Guess the repubs are glad that THEY are all reptiles.
Did you see the cake?
thank.you!
i think reptiles need less oxygen, so that might protect them. anyone remember what the oxygen levels were about 251 million years ago?
Aloha, BFL! My wife extends her B-Day wishes to ya!
I think I confirmed my new friends for tonight but I’m not sure. I alsio think i knopw what i was doin’ wrong before. So I’ll go back and confirm people who befriended me earlier. But not tonight.
Thanks. Very helpful.
Which rapist buddy? He had DuMond released and another one, Green. He seems to have a prediliction for releasing rapists/killers.
DuMond:
http://www.madison.com/post/entries/261029
Green:
http://www.arkansasleader.com/…..abee5.html
Here is another one he wanted to parole:
link
Thank you, as ever, selise, for your hard hearing work!
Send ‘em back.
We need a way to bring those bastards to justice. And, I agree; I don’t see it happening under Clinton.
Happy Birthday to your wife, CTuttle. Sounds like she learned a valuable lesson!
Howie Kurtz chatz at the WaPo0 tomorrow at noon, in case anyone wants to ask him if he’s ever going to cover his little buddy Joe Klein’s idiocy.
Extraordinary renditions, surprisingly, are not against international law. There is no requirement that a nation cannot turn over a criminal suspect to another nation without having a formal extradition treaty. If both nations agree it’s perfectly legal, provided that the individuals involved are nationals of the receiving country (as in deportation) or are being returned for legal action. The Presidential Directives that Clinton signed required that the receiving country sign agreements that the renditioned individuals not be tortured and be tried. In one case the Egyptian national returned to Egypt after capture by Croatian police had been tried in absentia for the assassination of Anwar Sadat. In other cases they were Egyptian members of a group affiliated with al Qaida, and wanted for involvement in the killings of Swiss tourists and Coptic Christians in Egypt. They were originally arrested by the Albanian police. In neither case was there extraction without the consent of the host government, the US provided the intelligence information leading to the capture and provided the transportation of the suspects. Presumably the host countries could have indefinitely held the suspects until extradition treaties were developed. I don’t think that Croatia or Albania were signatories to any international treaties on rendition or torture at the time. They likely had less restrictions on rendition than did the US.
And regarding which Presidential candidates would prosecute Bush for war crimes…
Was not Edwards a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee when these renditions under Bush were occurring? Was he not aware of them when he was running for President in 2004? And then later as a VP candidate? It would really seem odd that he wasn’t.
I don’t recall him ever criticizing Israel for their extraordinary renditions or war crimes either? In fact he frequently refers to Israel’s “right of self-defense” when they invaded Lebanon and in regards to their 40 year occupation of the West Bank and Gaza.
Why do I doubt that a President Edwards would do anything on this count, either?
Thanks for the info…. several of the TeeVee crew asked Elmore about the Huck and he did some research on him…. he will appreciate the additional info ….
Thanks selise.
Loo Hoo, I think the right is attacking Clinton hoping we will rally behind her due to their attacks, and nominate their preferred candidate. Although I’m not sure which current attacks you’re speaking of. Bush and Rove seem to have gone quite gushy on her.
Thanks.
No. Where should it be?
Hey katymine-I’m guessing elmore is happy to be in a dome this week instead of out in the muck and the mud of the last 2 weeks, eh?
Shouldn’t she have been “a ventriloquist’s dummy”?
The ventriloquist is the one in control.
She thanks you, she’s eating her cake now, and expects dessert later…! ;-)
Pittsburgh was a mess, he called me on Saturday and told me about the stadium putting in new turf just two days before the game plus the weather report for heavy rain….. Mud Bowl was what they dubbed it…
Yes and he will be glad to get back home on Tuesday…. This year the Super Bowl is here in Phoenix…. :)
comment 87 and here:
http://bp2.blogger.com/_IQCZF5…..CN2559.JPG
oops.
BFL’s cake:
comment 87 and comment 179.
Good catch!
katymine,
It’s rainy and yucky out this way, I bet he will be overjoyed to get out of this weather!
What do you mean, Bush and Rove have gone gushy on her, Teddy?
Off to bed for me, numerous chores await the morning. Goodnight all!
Aloha, MM!
sleep well madmom.
Here’s how it’s done. British out of Basra before Christmas!
Harry and Nancy?
Maybe the rapists played guitar like Keith Richards?
Huckabee on Pardoning Keith Richards
*groan* She’s still paying for Bill’s excesses…
He is in Atlanta this week….. they are so dry, the hotel is putting disposable plastic cups in the rooms and other water saving measures.
Our news here in Phoenix was all about road closures, roads washed out and water damage. You would think I was back in Oregon….. second weekend in a row with rain.
katymine, my mom said they got an inch and a half in palm springs – more than they got for the entire two years previous
Not to worry about the Huckster – Magical Thinkers are being recognized by the People, at large, as deficient Leaders in today’s complex and diverse World.
Same for us in San Diego, katymine. Cold too. Snow on Palomar Mountain is beautiful!
we just started a cold front as well.
To my knowledge, no preacher has ever been elected President of the United States and there’s a good reason why:
Politicians are expected to make compromises and preachers aren’t. Even the retared public know that. There’s something wrong with a preacher who wants to be a politician. A real preacher avoids politics like the plague.
The weird thing is that I am finding snails on my front walk…. snails in the desert? not just one…. last night did the crunch thing walking Miss Dog.
A tourist is still missing atop Mauna Kea during the blizzard we received suddenly on Wednesday!
I shall bid ya’ll a fond adieu! The better half is beckoning… Aloha Oe!!!
I am glad they changed the term from Global Warming to Climate Change so that it will explain all these weird weather patterns. Usually from Monsoon to after New Years, we have around 100 days without rain. Our rainy times is Jan-Feb and July-Sept but not this year.
I think this is the first time I’ve seen HIS chief rival in the MSM (NYT), rather than HER chief rival:
Her appearance today coincides with a new McClatchy-MSNBC poll that puts Mr. Obama and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, his chief rival, in a statistical tie in South Carolina. But a rally as large as this, and with its extensive publicity, could prove reassuring to Obama supporters who are worried that a black man cannot win.
you wrote:
from jane mayer’s article:
you wrote:
from jane mayer’s article:
you wrote:
but those were not the only two “extraordinary renditions” during the clinton presidency. from jane mayer’s article:
it when i read mayer’s piece it does not sound, to me, as innocent as your description seems.
p.s. i left you a reply at the bottom of this morning’s thread.
night CT.
Is Rayne still here?
Huckabee has a very thin skin…it’s definitely his Achilles’ heel.
Unfortunately, the press can’t be relied upon to vett him hard enough to make that testy side that all of us here know about come out. And you can’t really count on the Democrats to do it, either. But there is lots of dirt on the guy for anyone who cares to look. Which again, is the problem – the media doesn’t care to look too hard.
BTW, in case you didn’t know, here in the state his wife is known as “Jethrene”.
If Edwards is our nominee then yes I can see the Huck being taken to the woodshed
JennOfArk, love your name.
Would renditions to a country/destination who tortures be illegal?
if renditions are not illegal then I guess we could pay the Hague to come over here and pick up the entire PNAC crew.
We could all chip in and charter a 747 and pack it full of all the war criminals going back to say….. Nixon?
Would he have to be exhumed?
gonna take more than one 747 to hold all the war criminals in this administration.
where’s the donate button?
Ohhh Jane’s picture is over at Americablog!
If we could get Henry the K, that would be beautiful.
I didn’t mean Nixon himself just the era …
Time to start an Act Blue – To The Hague page.
Funny you should mention guns, Teddy. This is one of those things that I agree with Chris Matthews about–there is every reason to be alarmed about Huckabee’s attitude about guns. He seems to think the crime rate will drastically reduce if he can just get enough citizens to carry guns to protect themselves. When Chris Matthews mentioned that Philly has gangs of young men running around and wanted to know what Mikey would do about the gangs problem, apparently Mike told him that guns would solve the problem. Matthews is still incredulous at the thought, as well any sane person should be.
It’s truly hard to pick which of the Rethugs would be more destructive and dangerous. But Huckabee is no better than any of the others. No Dem candidate could be quite as bad as any of them.
I know — I was kidding! ;-)
Oh, and on that note, I’ll say goodnight. See you all tomorrow.
Me Too… I am heading to bed…. have to prep for sales demos…. YUCK… my lease favorite of the “other duties as might be required”
I know of someone who wondered why everything in Solana Beach was so much greener than it was in Las Vegas. He decided it was because there were snails in SB, but not in LV. So, being the clever guy he is, he got himself a pail full of snails from SB and brought them to SV. CAN YOU IMAGINE??? Maybe that’s what happened in Phoenix too. OY!
ianal, but i think it’s a grave breach of international human rights law. from the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment
here’s more on it.
Funny story about Huckster raising taxes…the bulk of it he had to do because the state was under orders by the state supreme court to adequately fund public schools. How did the state get there? Well, a small all-black district sued the state saying that they were violating the mandate for equitable funding and adequate funding. Case dragged on for about 10 years until finally a circuit court ruled in the district’s favor on the equity issue, the state appealed and the SC upheld the circuit court ruling. Now the state is on the hook for the fees for the district’s attorneys, and they want something on the order of many millions of dollars. Huckabee just flat out refused to pay them anything at all. So the circuit judge says, I’m going to send this issue back to the SC and if they refuse to rule on it and hand it back to me, you’d better come to an agreement or I will open up the adequacy issue as well. Huckabee still refused to pay the attorneys. So the SC rules that the issue is up to the circuit judge to decide, Huckabee continues to refuse to pay the attorneys, and the circuit judge made good on his promise.
Not that the state didn’t need to spend a lot more on education; but I still find it humorous that the issue that hurts the Huckster most with the check-writing Repubs is one that was of his own making.
that’s weird, my last link didn’t seem to take. well, here it is – more info.
btw the link to Americablog of Jane
good night to the Arizona contingent.
*waving to all the leaving sleepy pups*
Late Late Nite is serving up some Soul Food upstairs
They’ve got plenty of the money they stole from us already. They can pay for their own 747, and return the rest to the treasury.
President John Edwards is a brilliant lawyer and IMHO would certainly have a first class Justice Department. I also sense President Edwards is the only hope for Kucinich’s proposal of a Dept. of Peace.
Hiya npb!
Nothing I wrote is refuted by your recapitulation of Mayer’s article.
And it’s ambiguous whether what Clinton’s policy allowed violated the UN Convention of Torture
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm
http://www.law.harvard.edu/stu…..rodt.shtml
I think that these limitations were, in fact, done with an eye on the Human Rights Convention against Torture and an eye on US Law In 1998, Congress passed legislation declaring that it is “the policy of the United States not to expel, extradite, or otherwise effect the involuntary return of any person to a country in which there are substantial grounds for believing the person would be in danger of being subjected to torture, regardless of whether the person is physically present in the United States.”
It is that last point that likely would make any prosecution under the Human Rights Charter difficult, at best. If there were assurances that the individuals were not to be tortured and only received legal punishments, then the issue may be irresolvable. The receiving country violated its agreement. BUT, especially if the Clinton administration subsequently learned that these individuals were being tortured, and did not stop the renditions to Egypt, then it was certainly immoral…and perhaps would cross over to illegal under international law. But if reports of the torture of these individuals occurred after Clinton left office, or if the CIA suspended renditions to Egypt after they became known, then it would probably be in compliance. And the UN Charter on this issue really has no enforcement power over individuals. It can issue a condemnation of the States involved…and insist that renditions cease to a state its “Committee on Torture” declares as violating the policies upon renditioned prisoners.
Even Mayer’s article states
Furthermore, I don’t think that it would constitute a “war crime”, since there wasn’t a war going on. Individuals were not captured on the battlefield, or simply picked up by warlords, then renditioned because of rumor or nationality. The renditions in Afghanistan and Iraq would pose very different issues (following the Geneva Conventions), than captures made by host countries at peace (as the Albanian or Croatian cases).
The 9/11 Commission did state that there were about 80 authorizations for rendition (some unsuccessful, such as the effort to send bin Laden from Sudan to Saudi Arabia) that occurred before September 11, 2001. Unfortunately it didn’t specify how many of these were during the Clinton era vs. the terms of Bush Sr. or Dubya. But that would mean that there were perhaps about 6-7 cases a year back through 1988.
It also didn’t specify how many were to foreign nations (such as the Achille Lauro rendition) vs. to the United States ( a la Noriega, the killer of DEA agent Kiki Camanera, several of those involved in the East African Embassy bombings, etc.).
And Scheure’s comments about the following probably doesn’t strictly apply to the Clinton era, although it might
Indeed, the whole point of the Mayer article, as I read it, was that the post-9/11 rendition program, though originating in years earlier (and we must go back to Reagan, at least, on this), has expanded vastly in the Bush-Cheney era to a program where the United States tortures, has huge camps of renditioned individuals that lie outside of any sovereign legal system [Gitmo, CIA camps in Eastern Europe], where individuals are sent to places where they have committed no crime and are not nationals within, including those intended to NEVER be dealt with in the legal systems of either the US or the country of imprisonment. And rather than a few individuals the numbers appear to be in the thousands of cases.