Login HereContrary to what the Republicans have been constantly bleeting, people surveyed within the military community (including active-duty service members, veterans and their family members) have opinions about Bush and his handling of the war that are roughly in line with what the rest of the country thinks, i.e., it sucks. Sixty-four percent call for withdrawal by the end of next year:
Other surveys have shown an erosion of support for Bush and the war among military personnel, including a 2005 poll by Military Times of their active-duty readers.
Now the disapproval of Bush appears to have transferred to his party. Republican leanings of military families that began with the Vietnam War -- when Democratic protests seemed to be aimed at the troops as much as the fighting -- have shifted, the poll results show.
When military families were asked which party could be trusted to do a better job of handling issues related to them, respondents divided almost evenly: 39% said Democrats and 35% chose Republicans. The general population feels similarly: 39% for Democrats and 31% for Republicans.
"The Democrats are not seen as the anti-soldier group anymore," said Charles C. Moskos, a military sociologist at Northwestern University. He added that Bush's firm backing of the troops did not gain him any points because the entire country was now viewed as supportive of the military, even if not of the war. "He doesn't get extra credit for that."
"We support the troops; we don't support Bush," said respondent Linda Ramirez, 52, of Spooner, Wis., whose 19-year-old son is due to be deployed with the Marines early next year. "These boys have paid a terrible, terrible price."
Most military families also thought that it was appropriate for retired officers to be publicly criticizing BushCo's handling of the war.
What is the "leadership-as-photo-op" crowd at the White House going to do when they learn that a flight suit and a codpiece just isn't enough any more?
Meanwhile, Big Tent Democrat thinks that Hoyer and Emanuel are "determined to own the Iraq debacle." Kinda like all those folks who thought sweeping up Enron stock for pennies after it crashed was a really sweet deal.
Clever fellows.
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Jane, Amen!
This veteran has had no use for Republicans since 1968. Too damned bad it’s taken 40 years for the rest of our little community to begin to catch up.
The Bloomberg/LA Times poll yesterday certainly nailed home the point that with exception of Republican/Southern/Evagelical wingers George has no support left.
Why do our troops hate America?
And Good Morning Jane!!
I can’t stand not knowing what a codpiece is anymore. Yesterday I saw a guy with a Commander Codpiece t-shirt. Off to look it up…
Rove was wrong.
Another butchered ministration from the bush administration
Oh!
It’s a good thing the Democratic leadership is going to hold the line against ongoing funding for this mess in Iraq, knowing that they’ve got the military and their families on their side in ending the war.
Oh, wait a minute . . . from the WaPo:
Never mind.
(Emily Litella must be running the House Majority Leader’s office.)
It’s only the megaphone for the Liars for Bush that think he was right.
He only has the paid media left.
The military is in shreds. Highest rate of awol (perhaps a tribute to Shrub) and lowest rate of retention. Most of the west point grads are leaving the service after their mandatory service.
Maybe we should chip in and buy Nancy P a spine for Christmas
Looks like the decline in support for Bush was known about a year ago.
And yes, Kathering GC, we keep hoping to see spine.
As much as I can’t stand W and his buds, it’s the military who actually draws up these “war plans” and makes all the decisions on the ground. W and co. make the policy decisions, which are clearly insane. BUT THEY EXECUTE THEM.
DON’T LET THE MILITARY PIN THIS ALL ON BUSH. They are complicit and now that it’s clear that THEIR incompetence, once again, in off shore intervention, has proved that they are losers they, OF COURSE, now want to pin it on W. Rubbish.
Purge the military. They were jonsin for the war to play with their new toys and techniques and will be again. BUT IT’S ALL MISGUIDED.
Who came up with all the torture rubbish? THEY DID. THEY CARRIED IT OUT.
SHRINK THE MILITARY.
This is nothing more than people who are incompetent, evil, guilty creeps trying to escape responsibility.
Don’t buy into that crap.
STRUGGLE!
Bet you’re sorry now!
The news regarding miltary seeing the light regarding the Bush administration is good, indeed. I think that alot of it has been stewing under the radar for a while now, and is just starting to boil over. Huzzah!
So the question now is, how long will it be before the shrub starts bashing military families for daring to think for themselves?
Jane!
Maybe we can transfer some of the dislike to Mitch McConnell as well
“Nobody is happy about losing lives but remember these are not draftees, these are full-time professional soldiers.” Greg Sargent writes, “It’s hard to read this as anything but belittling the importance of the deaths of troops because they’re ‘professional soldiers.’ What McConnell is basically saying here is, ‘hey, they signed up for this.’”
And so it begins, the downward spiral of the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency.
Report: Iran completely stops selling oil in U.S. dollars
TEHRAN, Dec. 8 (Xinhua) — Iran, the world’s fourth largest oil exporter, has completely stopped selling its oil in U.S. dollars, the ISNA news agency reported on Saturday.
All of these players are power freaks addicted to it in the worst way… DOD, CIA all of them. ALL dangerous. It’s a system which draws pathological madmen like a flame does to a moth.
With power around, there will be those who will want it and abuse it. It’s the nature of power.
I’m not sure why almost everyone seems to think that this is an incompetent wh administration. They have accomplished everything that they wanted: the ME is in chaos and bound to get worse; their rich beyond Croesus cronies are in line to get more while they ship out to foreign ports; if the Iraq occupation is ended, they can blame the dims because it went so well under w; even dims are talking about “saving Social Security” as an important talking point, etc., etc.
Certainly the dims will cave again. The rethugs won in 2006 when they gave nancy and harry charge of the Congress.
The Book Salon today at 2 PM FDL Standard Time with Norman Solomon (Made Love, Got War) ought to be interesting. I don’t know if I’ll be able to be here for it, but would love to get his take on these survey results.
Having a bit of background in costume history, recommend you take a look at some portraits from around the Elizabethan period…..veddy instructive. *G* Talk about male egos!
Sure hope this link works, cause I am headed out the door. Dem’s plan to give in on Iraq funds:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12…..ttgFq+rSzA
Hello Jane
Next week the house rolls over and gives him the money for the war. What a suprise that will be.
jo6pac
Paul channelling the Spirit of wild and free John.
Too Many People - Paul McCartney
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxpHxGVTqg0
Jane -
Was over at CNN yesterday checking out comments on Cafferty’s new blog…there was one dealing with this subject and, iirc, most claiming to have military connections were definitely anti-shrub.
Next week the house WILL give him his money if he lets them spend a few million of domestic programs for them to coo about.
What a total bunch of assholes the entire lot in the beltway is and that includes MOST of the dems. What losers.
Bush made them do it… right.
Struggle!
That article is over in the FDL News Headlines. It’s business as usual for the spinally challenged dems.
SanderO - I have to respectfully disagree with you. Allow me paraphrase a movie quote…
The military is like a guard dog. It’s not the dog’s job to know when to be released, it just knows that when it’s released it has one job - Kill the enemy. And just like a dog, it always wants to be let out, but that’s not for the dog to decide, that’s the owner’s job.
Of course the military made plans, of course the military wanted to go, that’s their job. It’s also why we’re supposed to have civilian leadership, so that we don’t go out just trying to kill things.
Where there errors in planning? Obviously, and the military leadership will take some of the blame, and the lessons learned will be taught in Service Academies for years to come. But the blame for this belongs not on the “dog”, but on its “master”.
I think though, as in most Renaissance matters, any photo finish would have shown the Italians far ahead in the field. Among European countries, they were truly on the cutting edge of codpiecery, although there are some folks down around New Guinea who surpass all others with some rigid cones based on crescent rolls. In comparison, as in other things, Bush is a piker.
Good morning. Well, at least it was until I read the dems were going to cave on funding, but I guess that is no real surprise. I wonder if AIPAC has promised the dem leadership all the money they want to win big in ‘08 if they get out of the way of the Iraq war. Something, somwhere, by somebody, has been promised to someone for what the dem leadership is doing — or not doing, to be specific.
I am not encouraged, and the dems do own this war. Or to be precise, Pelosi, Reid, Hoyer et al own the war. I do not. Had a conversation with my oldest son who is a Bush backer and he said the usual tripe, war is being conducted wrong but we need to support the troops. I asked him if cutting funding for medical services, asking for refund on reup bonuses when a person gets permanently injured, and on and one, is supporting the troops. His reply — classic republican — “that is how it looks when you cut funding.” What about reality I ask (stupidly). He looks out the window the mumbles and conversation stopped. :-(
Of course the problem is that most people are pretty brainwashed and can’t analyze what is right in front of them.
They buy into all the frames and constructs like patriotism and protecting america (from whom I ask… who wants america?)
There are many ways to participate in the community of humans and little of it has to do with taking up arms and going off to fight.
Americans are hardly more independent than sheep, they can be led anyway the marketers want. And when they suffer personally they might wake up from the slumber of mindless somnambulism.
WAKE UP AMERICA.
Actually it’s too late. The almighty dollar is gonna be worth less than the paper it’s printed on very soon.
Oh give me a break. The military is like a guard dog? That’s really the level of the generals’ IQs? Well, on second thought, maybe you have a point.
SanderO, a couple of things.
1. Remember to distinguish between military leaders & enlisted folks. This post & the surveys refer to the latter. Your objections refer to the former.
2. The big bucks on military spending go to useless harware to fight nonexistant wars. That’s where the cutting should be. Maybe personnel too, but that’s a more complicated discussion.
My 20 year old son is stationed in Baghdad. He is a great American and he is following orders. There is a segment of the leadership in the military that need to be purged, they are few, yet have an enourmous amount of power.
The overwhelming majority of the people in the military are some of the hardest working people on the planet.
We need to purge the contractors, and we need to re-emphasize our soldier’s roles, to give them the knowledge that what they do is important, not to assign blame to them.
The way we have to do this is at the ballot box.
Go, join your local progressive organizations and get new leaders who will replace that small band of military incompetents who are out of control now.
The whole organization of the military, from what I can gather, is set up to breed incompetents at the top. Don’t think you can change that at the ballot box. But you should make sure you’re aware of it before committing the U.S. to military action.
There is the possibility that one decent thing could result from this
misuse of the military and that would be it’s return to an apolitical
stance. Barring a concocted stab-in-the-back myth, Rambo comes to mind,
it seems the ranks have moved in that direction and if enough service academy grads quit the officer corps could follow.
No it doesn’t.
It belongs on both and we don’t need dogs to be released into the world.
Why buy into the whole BS about how we need a military of such capabilities. Who do you think comes up with all these appropriation requests for new systems and killing machines, and ways of fighting and so and so on? The military is a HUGE part of the problem here and they have been dying to resuscitate their loser image from Nam. Not this time, but they will now want more money and another shot.
What’s the next threat to stomp on? (for the dog)
Why have a pit bull when a poodle works!
Caving on the war funding is just stupid. It is the result of having hacktacular people like career backroom boyz like Hoyer and Emmanual for whom it mostly about money and campaigns and not about governing and policy.
The goopers have never been weaker and the Democrats should remember
“no guts no glory.”
True the grunts are largely not to blame for the wars, spending and blunders, but there are bad nasty soldiers who are there for sadistic reasons.
Who DID abu graib?
Who operates Gitmo?
The people who carry out these policies are grunts who for the most part are either brainwashed or nasty… or both. Any person with a conscience refuses to participate in immoral or unethical warfare or policing. But that requires some serious courage, because they intimidate normal people into acting very badly.
STRUGGLE!
jcsmith2 - There are limits. While Bush would have US all believe the (Ideological) Enemy is everywhere around US, that doesn’t ‘greenlight’ Killing the Enemy in the form of old men, women and children, for instance - who don’t ‘act right’ or don’t ‘think right.’
Yes, Bush would ‘lead’ the Military to ’see’ the Enemy everywhere, but that doesn’t absolve each individual soldier for throwing away his humanity in the service of Bush’s Ideology.
Was Bush wrong? Of course. Were the men and women who blindly followed him Across The Line of Torture, Domestic Spying, Obstruction, Subversion of DoJ, and Leaking Our Spy’s identity wrong, too?
Of course. Everyone is individually responsible for knowing right from wrong when it comes to Human Rights. There is no such thing as ‘immunity’ for crossing that line.
You can’t change the military. It is out of the reach of the civilian. They are a world unto themselves and they will not let slackers tell them that they are out of control.
The military is always dangerous because they hold all the guns and why dictators usually come FROM the military or suck up to them to stay in power.
WE NEED TO GET RID OF THE MILITARY WE HAVE.
We can defend our nation from invaders with a much more modest and safer level of force protection.
Look at how police are now using more and more force, more lethal weapons.
FASCISM anyone?
Struggle.
jcsmith is ex military, already brainwashed as so many are.
STRUGGLE!
Good morning everyone :)
The posts here (The Lake, Marcy’s and TBogg’s) are awesome. So much happening and you guys are keeping us right on top of it. THANK-YOU.
Now for my OT….
(NewsTarget) Newly unsealed court records have revealed that the U.S. government issued a subpoena to Amazon.com seeking to obtain the identities of customers purchasing books through the Amazon marketplace. The snooping attempt was blocked by U.S. Magistrate Judge Stephen Crocker who wrote in a recently-unsealed ruling, “Well-founded or not, rumors of an Orwellian federal criminal investigation into the reading habits of Amazon’s customers could frighten countless potential customers into canceling planned online book purchases.”
http://www.newstarget.com/022342.html
Army Dismissals for Mental Health, Misconduct Rise
…an Army chart, which NPR recently received, shows that since the United States invaded Iraq….Commanders have discharged almost 40 percent more soldiers for “personality disorder.”
In all, the Army has kicked out more than 28,000 soldiers since the war in Iraq began on the grounds of personality disorder and misconduct.
http://www.npr.org/templates/s…..d=16330374
The U.S. military’s mental health problem
…reporters Dana Priest and Anne Hull tell the tale of the 25-year-old Army reservist, a valedictorian of her high school who had earned nothing but accolades during her seven-year career in the military. She once worked as an officer, but faces a court martial because of an attempted suicide when she was serving in Iraq. If tried and convicted, she could face life in prison.
http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/node/7233
I’m waiting for the real story behind the PTSD and mental disorder illnesses in the military. How many years before it’s disclosed that the US military in conjunction with the pharmaceutical companies admit to “undisclosed” non-FDA approved innoculations of entry-level military personnel. The numbers of discharged personnel are too high to be all contributed to PTSD. And the current numbers don’t include the Navy, Airforce, and Marines.
Crosstimbers -
Oh, I’d forgot about those attachments sans much else by way of adornment to compete with the *important* item! Plus ca change….
Well, it’s an absolutely beautiful day here so I’m gonna drag myself away from good company; catch up with you guys later.
If you don’t think that the giv has been data mining and the FISA immunity deal is about all the data mining off the INTERNET, you are in for a big surprise.
The spooks can build profiles from your purchases, surfing and so forth and they have been doing this. The extent to the invasion of the privacy of individuals is enormous.
Big brother anyone?
STRUGGLE!
In response to this story, On Day to Day yesterday, NPR interviewed a military wife who thinks we should stay the course. Listening to her defend the war as a struggle against terrorism while trying to keep my car safely on the freeway was a challenge. And I get that given that she is part of a group of voters that NPR is tracking over the year, they weren’t going to push back at all, but all I could think of was shaking her by the lapels and pointing out every false pretense and every disastrous consequence of this misadventure.
I have friends in the Navy (JAG/Officer corps), and their views fit right in with what this poll tells us.
P.S. Preview is unwilling to be my friend.
I’m not sure there is a perfect answer regardingl a military. During the latter 19th century until WW1, and in the period between the two wars, we had a small, poorly equipped military. It didn’t stop us from intervening or going to war in the Spanish American War, and varous banana wars. Nor was any more of the nations wealth spent on promoting the general welfare. Going into WWI and WWII, we were actually late and poorly prepared. Since Vietnam, the end of the draft appears to have made some of the civilian leadership more adventurous and the voting public more willing to support, at least initially.
In many ways, from the twelve former generals and admirals who supported John Kerry, to those who have come out more recently opposed to the Iraq venture, to the JAG’s who actually understood the Constitution, some of the military has been more mindful of the correct relationship than has the civilian leadership.
I think it’s a mistake to start coming out against the military, as if it were a monolith, and everyone who serves is the enemy of democracy. In the long run, it may lead them to conclude that they are.
bless u child.
Hi all. a little shaky getting started this a.m. Techiwhizkidsonny helped us upgrade last night. Watch out world. We can now make typos at light-speed, it appears. YeeHaw! *g*
Jane~ What’s even more remarkable about this survey is that it’s likely true that people in the military and their families tend to be Republican. Or WERE! What this is indicating is that they, the ones most intimately affected by the Bush Administrations defense policies, are deserting him and the Iraq/Iran War Hawks at levels far faster than the general public and REPUBLICANS who are sitting on that flatulent sebaceous asses back in the States believing that they are “supporting” the troops (by keeping them over there for extended tours at intense hours without appropriate training).
In 2003, according to a Zogby Poll, 57% of Active Service Military were registered Republicans while 66% of their Officers were. That can only mean that there has been a huge defection to Democratic or Independent positions. I’m sure that these individuals are much more like the disenchanted “draftees” who served in Vietnam than anyone could guess.
the administration is DELIBERATELY breaking the military, they want us to rely on private militia
Mutant Poodle @ 45 -
Ah, yes…..remember it fondly. Another of my FDL buddies who seems to have pulled a disappearing act. ;-(
Jane, love the Enron analogy. I wish the Dems would continue to reference Enron in the debacle that is the Bush administration. This war ties into the fiscal disaster that is ongoing and the “off budget” manner of paying for it. It should be forever labled as Enron style management by W and his gang.
Meanwhile the Dems are trying to find a way to save defeat from the jaws of victory in the ‘08 election. If Huckabee gets the nomination and we have HRC or Obama, I’ll be very worried.
If I recall correctly, the generals who have been very critical of the fiasco in Iraq have waited for the most part until they were safely retired to open their mouths. Exceptions were fired.
All those enlisted men and women who are wallpaper for a ridiculous Bush speech filled with enigmas enshrouded in mysterys are ordered to be there.
Almost all the discussion by Congress and the media pundits has carefully avoided the immense money hemorrhage that Iraq has been.
And one thing ain’t changin’: You’re going to have Iraq to bitch about all your lives unless a Draft causes the elitsia to become scared enough to stop the war. Pure and simple. Get used to it.
The embassy was to cost $600 million–it’s now over a billion (sorry for the typo–I had written 600 billion yesterday). What the hell kind of structure costs a billion dollars? That’s usually reserved for a Henry Kravis (pays no taxes) mansion.
It’s impossible to keep count of the permanant bases that are going up there.
Why don’t we demand that Dover coffins get shown on TV as often as Britney, the Aruba story, another Dancing with the Starts story– or the ambulances leaving the Omaha mall?
And btw, “urging” that the CIA do anything doesn’t get it done does it? All the people piling up to say that they “urged” the CIA to save the tapes. I could have sworn that the National Intelligence Director McConnel and the CIA director General Michael Hayden work for the President and are appointed by the President and are confirmed by the Jello backboned Congress. So what’s with the “urging”? They should have been told flat out to preserve the tapes.
Note that Mukasey could have issued a Protective order that nothing else be destroyed (as if it would matter coming from DOJ) and he hasn’t.
Jane -
What is this weird “jumping” box on my screen saying I’ve won an “hourly prize” and to click on “OK” to claim?
Is this another Lake surprise or are there bad things going on behind the scenes?
Of course Generals waited until they were retired to voice their opinions. THAT is the central point of civilian control of the military. Voicing such opinions while in the military is essentially munitiny. It can’t be any other way in a democracy, or we would have Praetorian Guards capturing the government at every whipstich. Come on folks, this is Junior High Civics.
here’s what’s going on;
they want to privatize every successfull program, medicare, social security, bridges, tunnels
and the brass ring, the united states armed forces
they want government doing NOTHING, that’s why they broke fema, it’s why they are trying to break the public schools system, it’s why they broke medicare
but the grand prize, the armed forces of the united states of America…break THAT
and that’s what they’ve done
soon to the point of no return
pelosi, where the HELL are you?
NotQuitetotallyOT:
I f-i-n-a-l-l-y got a letter back from Voinovich yestidie, whom I’ve been pestering incessantly about just about every issue that rears its ugly head, sigh. (just pick any issue. he’s on t’other side. makee no nevermind.)
The distinguished senatorque informed me how proud and happy he was to have gladly leaped over the desks to cast hisveryown vote for Muckrhazy. groan.
Now I’m mad at meself. I tore up and tossed his letter so fast, I wasn’t thinking straight. I wanted it for precise reference, so I can write back and ask the estimated senatour whut his definition of “torture” is.
fwiw, earlier he had sent me a canned statement assuring all the world how proud he is to be soooooo green that he’s backing nookular energie to the hilt. i don’t have to go look at who funds the lad, but i will, when i calm down.
beware these seemingly bleary-eyed, mild-talkin’ noodles in the lege, dawgs.
Perris nails it.
Ditto what Perris said.
In the last reporting period, the military had donated more money to Ron Paul than to any other candidate.
I apologize for the mispellings, but I’m really tired of neocons voicing the opinions that Generals ought to go spouting their viewpoints and raising a nice following. That’s what MacArthur came close too.
We are all the OTHER. Have some compassion. Most humans can KILL only if sufficiently angered or scared.(1 out of 8 deer hunters will reap a harvest) The battlefield is a great place to push those emotions to the top. PTSD of some degree affects 99% of combat troops, proof that they are just US.
aw you guys! yer just tryin’ ta’ cheer me up, right?! /s
I have another Junior High Civics lesson for you. The war has been total shit. The money hemorrhaged is closing on 500 billion that we know about. It’s not being stopped until their is a draft. I’ll see if I can keep the junior high civics lessons coming for you. We don’t have a Praetorian Guard–we havea totally broken armed forces not capable of sustaining a conflict anywhere else right now.
Shit, I’ve been sitting in the Red Sox virtual waiting room for an hour waiting for Sox tics. No luck yet.
Friday was a blockbuster day, but come Monday will Mukasey speak to us?
We’ve had at least ten shoes drop, yet nothing from the Dem leadership?
I’m so fucking frustrated and impatient…
Pelosi may be doing exactly what she was put there to do. Fifth column & all that.
*takiing off my tinfoil hat now*
“bleeting.” Love it Jane. Baaaaaaahhhh. They are a bunch of sheep. And if they continue to stick with Bush, they’re being led to slaughter (so long as the Democrats don’t screw up). Glad the military isn’t part of it.
NEWS! The “Cookie” Crumbles.
Howard “Cookie” Krongard, the State Department Inspector General who oversees Blackwater and such things as the construction of the Baghdad Vaticanate, has resigned…after it was discovered his brother served as a Vice-President to…Blackwater.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/hom…..22736.html
And someone has gone into Huckleberry’s History on just how he would have handled the HIV issue if he were
dictatorJesusPresident.WWHuckD?
He would have placed millions into quarantine camps.
He would have funded these camps by asking for alms from Hollywood millionaires.
He would have made homosexuality a Federal crime.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200…..kabee_aids
So much for the “caring” side of Mike Hucklebee.
OK, this is seriously freakin’ me out. If Jane shows up, will someone *please* call her attention to this and get an answer? Will check back later for response. Thanks!
Isn’t it “bleating”?
Thank you much, (((((Jane)))))
Keep shining that light into the dark corners.
FDL’s the absolute best… um … as soon as I can have my “Preview” friend back. ;->
How much? And what % of his contributions is this?
Pelosi made her chops as a fundraiser, not a leader, so there’s really nothing to be surprised about with her performance thus far.
I expect it will only get worse.
Yeah. Pain in the ass.
fifth column, another term for judas sheep
I do believe you might be right…it’s just hard to believe she is not doing something about that
I hope the candidates for president take this opportunity to tell congress especially nancy p to get a grip
who ran against her for speaker? i don’t even remember.
The whole organization of the military, from what I can gather, is set up to breed incompetents at the top
This is true of any large, complex organization. Any competent president understands this, and like Lincoln and Roosevelt, knows that they will have to fire and demote a series of generals before finding the right team to complete and win a war. Compare and contrast that with W. Discuss. Try not to vomit.
pw upstairs
http://firedoglake.com/2007/12…..nt-for-us/
So you want to further isolate the military from the civilian populations and encourage Generals to raise a following to toss out the civilian leadership until we can get some order. No thanks.
but our precious MSM is pimping photos of “Iraqi government forces” manning checkpoints and searching people, like they were U.S. Marines in lockdowned Fallujah. Yesireee, folks; it’s all just mopping-up drill now.
“Move right along; nothing to see here.”
This next year is going to be a case of the warbots (evidently, willingly aided by the democrats who are running) saying:
“So what if you’ve got koolaid-slash-bullshit coming out of every orifice in your body! Drink some more; do you want the terrrrists to win?”
Of interest is that there is no more insurgency; just dirty old Al Queada, causing vestigial trouble for our troops and the happy, happy, hardworking people of Iraq.
The fact is, that the “stability” has been partly achieved by the expedient of showering the Sunni insurgents with money and small arms, in order to get them to go after what Al Queada there IS left. Among the many questions which the prancing bushCo cheerleaders have no intention of asking OR answering is:
“What happens when you stop paying protection money to the mob?”
Hey, that’s a really great response. Thanks for pointing that out.
Hey leave W, alone! He followed this historic pattern. He fired Shinseki - for being right. Can’t have that.
Not true…people will kill or abuse without having any physical fear or hate…even when they know the person is not guilty. All they need is an authority figure who tells them that they will NOT face retribution for doing the act.
This was established in the famous Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram Expereiment back in the 1960’s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
This is precisely why it is essential to make people aware that they face PERSONAL punishment if they screw up. That’s why AMNESTY for the Telecoms is WRONG. Give them amnesty and they do it again and again.
That’s why there should be no amnesty for Torturers or other criminals unless the benefit from their testimony is absolutely essential to exposing a wider conspiracy, and will definitely result in the convictions of others.
That’s why any amnesty should be strictly limited to TESTIMONY about their own acts. But that if there is other evidence they should not be able to suppress the use of that information.
Soldiers need to be trained in ethical actions. They need to know that if they violate basic rules of war that they will face consequences…they need to know that they can’t simply get away with murder, torture, or war crimes simply because their superiors “order it”. If the military tells them that they are not gonna face responsibility then those who teach them this need to be charged with felonies. And noone should be sent into combat without significant training on the basics of the Geneva Conventions.
It seems the only citizens who aren’t anti-shrub are the Democrats who refuse to stand up to him in congress.
Great Jane! The criminal Bushie Empire is crumbling from within.
I can just imagine the lunatic fringe neo-cons blaming this on our military being infiltrated by Al Qaeda operatives and tree hugging liberals. Gives them good reason to privatize the whole Armed Forces…
Ahhhh…g’mornin’ ‘pups.
I drive another nail into the coffin of my future unemployability here in Vegas.
LOL!
Vets out there? Didn’t you get this training? Some? Any? If not, that surprises me. If so, was it just treated as unimportant “we have to do this” stuff?
Simply The Peter Principle at work
Excellent letter to the editor!
Seconded.
Thanks, y’all.
People can Kill for a variety of reasons.
The professional Military fights for Our Constitution, under the direction of the President. When Our cause is Just, according to Our Principles of Universal Endowment of Inalienable Rights, We - as bravely represented by Our Military - fight, and Kill if necessary, those who would Oppress a Freedom such as Ours.
When the professional Military is poorly led and/or Tainted with Ideology, the Killing is much less about the Just cause, and far more about Killing Them - as ‘externally’ defined.
When the professional Military is poorly led and/or Tainted with Ideology, the Enemy - the people Killed - are those who don’t ‘act right’, ‘talk right’ and…wait for it…those who don’t ‘look right.’
That’s right, one of the consequences of a poorly led professional Military, not fighting for a Just cause, is frequently the rise of virulent Racism as the ‘justification’ for the Killing.
In the same way that the Constitution is ‘ailing’ with a loss of protections for the Rights of US Citizens under Bush’s Ideological sway, so is the professional Military ‘ailing’ in its moral motivation to do its job.
Bush isn’t just ‘leading’ US poorly, he’s crushing Our spirit with his Hatefulness, too.
Great job. Is the trick to getting published there using words like “ineradicable”? And our FDL poster egregious should be happy that you used “egregiously”. I live in Flori-DUH and I really believe you’ve got to dumb down your LTE’s. I don’t think your letter ever would have been publidhed here. Sad. The Las Vegas paper is to be congratulated for printing an intelligent letter on national issue.
Waccamaw,
I’m obviously not Jane but I think it means that she is using a different advertising hook than previously where the site actually gets paid. FWIW, folks have mentioned seeing ads for the coultergeist, and it’s kinda funny to think that the coultergeist is paying Jane.
Hoyer
Agree. Progressives imvho have nothing to gain and lots to lose by blaming the military. Yes, as SanderO pointed out, the military has some responsibility, but as you pointed out, it’s a civilian controlled military (I liked the guard dog metaphor). The overwhelming blame goes on
Vice-President Clusterf*ck, his pet shrub, and the rest of us for electing themand the Vichy Dems.Many courageous retired Generals have said the occupation is doomed and military folly. Our supply lines are indefensible, there are no “military objectives,” and we’re funding both sides.OT, I know we have a lot of FDLers who are military, ex-military, and relatives in theater.
OT, SanderO’s comments referencing the wider dangers of the military industrial complex, however were accurate.
That’s what I thought. Which raises an interesting (to me) question:
Who do you guys think would have been a more effective speaker than Pelosi? Please, responses of “anybody” will not be counted.
Per everyone else, great letter Bobby G!
Reagan was instrumental in screwing veterans out of disability (and other) benefits. Reagan’s policies geared toward denying veteran benefits has lasted through Bush 1, Clinton and Dubya. The VA has denied benefits in most cases wherein the benefit of the doubt is decided against the vet.
One of the latest assaults on veterans benefits is the denial of PTSD as a viable disease/disorder. Our troops are really getting screwed. Older cases involving disability benefit recipients are currently under review (scrutiny). Older veterans are begininning to get the rug pulled out from under them.
Very good point the experiments were designed to test conformity toward authority. Take young men (initially) with an “authority” in the room with an unseen “victim”. 60+% will go all the way, 100% percent had misgivings. None had any previous training in questioning authority nor do we as parents or educators do this kind of training today. Basic military training is all about creating obedience to authority and conformance to group unity. Where does the strength of will come from that allows someone to stand up and charge headlong into stream of machinegun fire? Why are extreme sports the province of the young? Murder is still very, very difficult for most humans.
When Shrub got in - in 2000 - he began dismantling the VA.
They fired the nurses and caregivers and rehired them thru private contractors. This eliminated government benefits for VA workers. The staff size was reduced and overworked resulting in poorer care for veterans.
Nothing like putting your life on the line for an incompetent fearless leader….
The contractor gets a pile of money. The smaller he can keep the staff the more money he keeps from the contract. Privatization is what they call it.
the only purpose of privatizing anything is to steal middle assets, that’s the purpose
it’s an unmitigated lye that business is more efficient then government
government is almost always more efficient then business when it comes to services that are necessary, business is only more efficient then government when they are providing a good or service that people don’t need
when you don’t need something they price attractively
when you do need something they price according to the highest amount you will pay
I want the American people to get a grip and demand this Iraq fiasco be stopped. Civilian leadership my ass.
3Q military donations, top three candidates:
40K Ron Paul
21K McCain
20K Thompson
Yes/no Centcom makes contingenct plans for military options all over the globe. Very few are implemented. The WH has influenced the choices marledly. Cheney/Rumsfeld decided on Shock and Awe with inadequate occupation force to secure Iraq leading to the bedlam of civil war that filled that vacuum. Sorry it was the Bush Adninistration that made the choices not the military. The Unoiform Code of Military Justice is clear on the chain of command it starts with the “Commander in Chief” and goes downhill. Congress gets the say as to whether or not can go to war. Without false intel they would not have approved this war/occupation. Making the intell work for the neocon agenda is the key to responsibility in this treason.
The main reason privatising is more costly is profit is built onto the cost of doing business.Their is an extra cost in oversight which is built into government projects. Boeing satellite deal is an example of failed private side effort. When the fox is guarding the henhouse as with this administration contracts are a licence to steal from the public treaury. That has been the modus operendi of the Bush regime.