(Please welcome author Norman Solomon in the comments — jh)
Made Love, Got War is the title of Norman Solomon’s latest book, an autobiographical account of the peace and disarmament movements in the United States over the past half century. Better than his other books, I think, this one achieves the level of artistic composition found in Solomon’s brilliant and frequent columns on the media, war, and peace. But the value of Made Love, Not War lies in the lessons it provides for current and future activism, the accounts of pitfalls and seductive detours encountered in the past, the insights gained, and the analysis of how one can push on without hope or optimism or the desire for them, all as told by one of the most morally decent people we are privileged to live alongside today.
"I was born in 1931," Daniel Ellsberg writes in the foreword, "and my generation had to reorient itself to the unprecedented threat of planetary nuclear suicide-murder. Norman Solomon was born twenty years later, and his generation has never lived under any other circumstance." Yes, but few in that generation have remained constantly aware of the fact and devoted to changing it. Human beings have always been able to put the fact of their fast approaching personal demise out of their minds, often aided by the pretense of an "afterlife." Solomon’s and later generations have usually managed to put the possibility of our collective nuclear end out of our thoughts, often aided by the pretenses of the news and entertainment industry.
Solomon has refused his entire life to forget that we are dangerously close to nuclear oblivion, and wishing others would also stop forgetting, he inevitably became something that most peace activists do not: a media critic. In a section toward the end of the book dated July 7, 2006, Solomon writes:
Today is my fifty-fifth birthday, and the feeling that despite all the changes so little has changed really torments me. Turn on a television and there’s the president, giving hypocrisy a bad name, and this is normal. Always has been in my lifetime. Turn on the TV when I was fifteen and there’s the president, some kind of perverse fount of lies. That was when I started to get it and not get over it. If I’d been born ten years earlier, it would have started with Ike instead of LBJ.
Or it could have started earlier, with Truman. "[F]rom one president to another," Solomon writes, "one commander in chief to another: …they’ve all been ready to demolish us in an instant. That fact, alone, from Harry S. Truman to George W. Bush and whoever comes next, is so ghastly that we can’t really look at it…."
Solomon’s recent book "War Made Easy: How Presidents and Pundits Keep Spinning Us to Death," which has also been made into a movie, documents the similar lies all recent presidents have told about wars. This new book touches on that theme, with Truman (discussed by Ellsberg) pretending Hiroshima was a military base, Kennedy pretending the Soviet Union had more missiles, Johnson pretending he was for peace and restraint, and so forth. But here we learn not just what Solomon thinks of these lies today, but what he thought of Kennedy as a young man growing up in the suburbs, what he thought of Johnson as a teenager in full rebellion, and how he viewed the world as an activist through turbulent decades.
Solomon’s early sins read more like the confessions of St. Augustine than the confessions of an economic hit man. He failed to fully appreciate the racism of his society or the horrors of war by the time he was 17. If that were the worst anyone had done in life, we would have utopia now. From the time Solomon was 17, he was on the path to try to better the world. The story he tells is of his own activism but also of trends in the movement. One point of frustration is reached around 1970, with unsuccessful saviors of the world beginning to advocate self-absorbed dedication to personal liberation rather than structural political change. "The idea that ‘consciousness’ – or, for that matter, culture – can fundamentally change as swiftly as hats," Solomon writes, "was to cause enormous confusion, shallow posturing, and bitter disappointment in the 1970s and beyond." Later, Solomon describes the efforts of various people in 2006 to save the world by growing organic crops.
In the meantime, the Vietnam war was being declared officially on the way out. Air strikes were replacing ground fighting, meaning fewer U.S. casualties, but more Vietnamese. And a pundit, whom Solomon quotes, commented: "The American majority is against the war. To oppose it involves no risk: the only risk is in trying to stop it." The summer of 2007 has witnessed endless "anti-war" rallies outside the offices of Republican congress members, and TV advertisements to the same effect have funneled progressive dollars into the media war machine. No similarly funded effort has urged the Democratic leadership to actually end the occupation.
"Despite all the changes, so little has changed."
Solomon quotes James Baldwin: "They have destroyed and are destroying hundreds of thousands of lives and do not know it and do not want to know it. But it is not permissible that the authors of devastation should also be innocent. It is the innocence which constitutes the crime."
Solomon quotes these lines approvingly, but his goal is not just to make us aware of what the U.S. military state is doing, but to stop it. He offers no hope that we can, instead arguing that the demand that we be ever optimistic is another assumption imposed on us by the media, and something we can get along without. That may be, but clearly optimism breeds activism which in turn increases both the grounds for optimism and the likelihood of success. The fact that Solomon has done what he’s done, seen what he’s seen, and continues to insist on sanity and disarmament, should provide us at least with inspiration. That’s a good enough substitute for optimism in my mind, so who am I to say it won’t do for others as well?
Related posts:
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Jurgen Todenhofer, Why Do You Kill?: The Untold Story of the Iraqi Resistance
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Hillary Rettig, The Lifelong Activist: How to Change the World Without Losing Your Way
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Adam Gopnik – Angels and Ages: A Short Book About Darwin, Lincoln, and Modern Life
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes Frank Schaeffer: Crazy For God
- FDL Book Salon Welcomes David Swanson, Daybreak: Undoing the Imperial Presidency and Forming a More Perfect Union





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Welcome, Norman! That’s really a brilliant review of your book :-)
Welcome, Norman, and thanks so much to David Swanson for pinch hitting for us on late notice.
Warm welcome.
Remember, folks, please keep the comments and discussion on topic to the book.
Welcome Norman and David
So, Norman, would it really not help if we all made love more? What made people believe it would? What similar stances of retreat to the local or personal do you see today?
Thank you for joining us and discussing these important ideas, Norman. Welcome!
Welcome Norman, welcome David. We really appreciate you being here today.
Hi everyone,
I’m pleased to be part of this discussion pegged on my book “Made Love, Got War”!
– Norman
I suppose there’s a longstanding cultural either/or mentality that doesn’t foresee a lot of the contradictions and ambiguities. We got to make love (maybe even a lot) and we got a warfare state that kept bringing (more) war…
Norman, can you elaborate on this? “It takes an odd sort of credence to believe, as we’ve been encouraged to presume at least in public, that the constant threat of nuclear holocaust has only minor effects on human psyches.” And how does global warming relate? An activist campaign called “No War, No Warming” makes a connection through oil, but what about the connection as a twin pair of ultimate dangers?
Isn’t it also just so much easier to think we can fix our politics at the state level, or fix our town, or have a good family life, or do our recycling diligently and stop eating meat?
I have the distinct impression that we gravitate toward comfort — physical and psychological. Even in distress and opposition, we tend to fix on an idea and a solution (God, technology, drugs, the Internet, a candidate), but the problems are multifactoral and so, I’d guess, are deep viable solutions…
Well in the ’70s there was a big move toward decentralization, “back to the land” etc., along with building local/regional (counter)institutions. A lot of benefits as a result, I’d say. But the warfare state, or whatever we’d call it, is overarching, and the forces bound up in $2 billion a day going to the U.S. military are depleting and ravaging local communities everywhere in the USA (and of course far beyond)…
Norman, did you see the psyches / global warming question?
Welcome to the Lake Norman.
I’m a bit over half way through and a few things (besides all the memories) have already stood out for me.
My birthday came up last in the first draft lottery. Unfortunately, I was NOT in the lottery that year. The next year when I was in, I came up 6th. Which meant I had to play the system.
I was also quite moved by your stories of the Nagasaki Atomic vets you’d interviewed and worked with. When I was in the AF and stationed in Hawaii, there were a number of folks I knew who were sent to Enewetak for Not To Exceed Six Month Temporary Duty assignments to do Atomic clean-up. As far as I’m aware, none of these guys ever wore an special suits or clean-up gear and probably would not connect any cancer they may now suffer with those days.
Norman,
I see from chapter 10 – you were in Baghdad before the war.
Could you tell us about that trip?
The numbers are too big for people to grasp. Our government is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Can the average person even grasp that without going into shock? But..we’re the good guys, aren’t we? It’s taken a really long time even for politically active people to understand the outlines of this problem.
It’s too painful to look at, so we avert our eyes. How can we keep a painful sitution, for which we are responsible, in our consciousness long enough to devise and take action?
I work in Russia, where the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people—for really stupid and preventable reasons including unnecessary war—represent mere rounding error in their statistics, even now. It’s been pretty awful to realize our own country is, and probably has been for a long time, in the same situation.
Yes, thanks. The “global warming” huge concerns are so enormous, on a scale comparable to nuclear weapons, that I suspect we can’t grasp. We break it into small parts. I’m glad people are thinking about their individual “carbon footprint,” but I doubt those focuses will make much different. These are macro problems that require absolutely massive changes in response — economic and political and governmental changes.
And about Sean Penn and the brilliant speech he gave yesterday in San Francisco?
The idea of “clean up” from use of nuclear weapons was itself a media/governmental effort to suggest that the uncontainable and unfathomable could be contained and confined to very limited damage…
Your trip to Iraq with Sean Penn before the war to try to prevent the invasion was quite heroic, Norman. The media just could not try and turn him into Jane Fonda fast enough, could they?
Also for what it’s worth, when I was in the AF, we had to go through the “civil defense” type drills and sit in the underground bunkers and pretend if the missiles or bombers were launched, that there would be anything remotely resembling life when we came out.
Most of us accepted that the whole idea was part of the big con.
It was a police state — Iraq, September 2002 — where millions of people were on the Pentagon’s cruise-missile target screens. With all the horrors of the Saddam regime, I was even more upset about the looming specter of a U.S. attack. I’d organized a trip (through the Institute for Public Accuracy, where I’m exec dir) bringing a member of the U.S. Congress, Nick Rahall, to meet with Tariq Aziz and other high-level Iraqi officials. The idea being, discussion instead of war. It was the kind of step that could have led to progress instead of “shock and awe” and all the horrors that have come since…
Roberet Jay Lifton uses the apt term “psychic numbing”…
Global Warming is the mother of all fold catastrophes. It is far bigger than nuclear bombs. It will affect absolutely every single living thing with up to %50 extinction of all speacies on Earth.
The speech yesterday (fortunately widely posted on websites) was quintessential Sean Penn… much wisdom there, and also a welcome stimulus to discussion with no pristinely clear “correct answers”…
Speaking of progress, instead of Shock and Awe, the recent Iran NIE was remarkable. Not the information, but the fact that it was released. Norman, what do you make of the media’s ability to continue playing along with the Iran antagonization post-NIE?
In this corporate-censor-free zone, I have to ask:
THE KUCINICH QUESTION
Norman, are you actively backing Dennis Kucinich, who – with all his flaws – is the only serious peace candidate for president, and if not what role has the media played in your decision?
Yes. The danger is that we activists become numb and find it difficult to work. How to keep people from burning out is a serious problem. FDL has been good about discussing the issue of restoration and re-creation during non work periods.
Yes, it’s true, Sean’s feet were scarcely on the ground in Baghdad before the Murdoch attack dogs were at it — New York Post with “Baghdad Sean” headlines, Fox News but also CNN and MSNBC… Sean took risks that he knew very well were built into the situation… Five years later, the contrasts of behavior at that pivotal time are of course all too stark…
Please try to keep your comments on the topic of the book.
Looking at the big picture, it seems those are the two big ones — nuclear war and global warming. To really prevent either would take an enormous democratization of the USA and other countries. One person one vote in true effect, not one dollar or ruble or euro one vote in terms of policy impacts… Nuclear war’s “nuclear winter” effect would be every bit as ultimately horrific as global warming. One reason the U.S. news media acknowledge global warming now but have nothing bad to say about the continued U.S. nuclear weapons development is that one issue can be turned into the media equivalent of Hallmark Cards… and the other, well, can’t…
Warfare state goes so much deeper than any NIE. And the military momentum of the USA is in search of enemies (gotta justify that $2 billion/day and som much more to come). There’s a deep split among elites over Iran policy right now…
Fascism requires fear and militarism is part of keeping the people terrorized.
As a perk it makes a bunch of people oddles of money in a no compete environment.
Waring appeals to paranoid, xenophobes and aggressive types who are sanctioned to have these handicaps.
This is where this is headed. The Germans were brainwashed into playing along and W tried with his MSM support, 911 nightmare to scare the people enough to roll over. They pretty much do because when they resist in the slightest way they are tasered of shot or disappeared as an enemy combatent.
Where is the real resistance to this madness?
What is a “fold catastrophe”, if I may ask?
You describe on p 58 yong men opposing the war by going to work for military conractors in order to get out of “serving” (as we all habitually call it). But isn’t that an odd way to oppose a war?
To really prevent either would take an enormous democratization of the USA and other countries.
Too late for that. There are some effects of climate change that cannot be stopped now. And I no longer see it as very likely that our power mad leaders will give up their hold on power. I’m not very hopeful.
Personally I’m going to vote for Dennis Kucinich in the primary… I am not optimistic that his ‘08 campaign will have much impact on the thinking or politics of the country next year… I’d like to see a united front among several of the Democratic prez candidates (and their volunteers/supporters) to try to prevent Hillary Clinton from being nominated. I would fault several of the candidates for failing to show much interest in developing such a common front…
Yes, if you look back, Penn’s behavior was the very model of responsible action and decorum, and the jabbering chickens who were assailing him look like…jabbering chickens.
But who could have predicted no weapons of mass destruction, eh? Other than…well, the weapons inspectors.
I agree. We’re in a marathon not a sprint…
A fold catastrophe comes from a branch of mathematics called Catastrophe Theory. A tidal wave is a fold catastrophe.
Nice to have you here, Mr. Solomon! Hope everything’s working out OK and there aren’t any big technical glitches on your end.
My own two cents:
1) We need some of the richer progs out there to back a TV network, for one thing. The conservatives followed William Simon’s blueprint for taking over those institutions concerned with defining and imparting truth and reality — namely, our schools, universities and particularly our mass media — and that may be the biggest reason why things are so messed up today.
2) Getting the money factor out of politics — or reducing its impact — is another big reason for our messed-up situation. When most sitting Congressmembers have to spend most of their time fundraising simply to stay in office, that’s not a good thing. Fortunately, there is a way out that’s gaining popularity nationwide, and the fine folks at http://www.publicampaign.org will tell you all about it.
In “Made Love, Got War,” along the way I describe a continuity of resistance over the past few decades, with all sorts of strengths and flaws… Optimum resistance will never be!… My feeling is basically that we need to sustain and strengthen what resistance does exist and find ways to nurture broader/deeper cultures that affirm life and challenge the mechanisms of repression/war/social-injustice.
1. You said it!
One attempt: http://www.therealnews.com
Norman, is this the best effort going, or is there another avenue available to people who see this as a priority?
One of the big ironies — the way that “the counterculture” in some ways dovetailed, or came to be in reasonably comfortable coexistence with, the warfare state. Big challenge always: distingushing the trappings of opposition on the one hand from substantive deeper-rooted opposition on the other.
Welcome.
A personal Q, if I may. Do you have children?
I am 7 years older than you, and for a very long time, I thought the world was so awful, that it would be a crime to bring a child into it.
Finally, the biological clock, and irony of ironies, the success of Mutually Assured Destruction, caused me to change my mind. I’m curious what intellectual/emotional paths others of about my age traversed wrt having children.
“marathon not sprint” is right. Saul Alinsky was constantly cautioning his people not to get too bent out of shape by either failure or success.
I think she’ll be stopped in New Hampshire, if not Iowa. There’s no way in hell that anyone with her high negatives can win the nomination. She’s hated by conservative males who think she’s a Communist and she’s hated by progressive males who say she’s a Republican, and ideology aside there’s something about her that just makes men really hate and fear her.
Has the rise of the internet made you more optimistic that we can “sustain and strengthen what resistance does exist and find ways to nurture broader/deeper cultures that affirm life and challenge the mechanisms of repression/war/social-injustice.”
I think we called it being “co-opted”.
I’m not very hopeful either. At the same time, fatalism is deadly. The best I can come up with is to acknowledge (including to myself) that I’m not optimistic and I refuse to be fatalistic… A lot of lives hang in the balance, short- and long-term…
I felt the same way as you. I came home from Nam at 19 and there was no way I was bringing anyone into this world. I have spent my life working with kids in sports and education. . .just not my own.
Norman, you have an intriguing conclusion to your book. Can you tell us what’s wrong with hope?
I’ve always liked this saying: “There is no such thing as false hope, but there is false despair.”
Yes. Just those UN weapons inspectors. Reviled at the time, in autumn-winter ‘02, by countless U.S. media outlets… The pundits and members of Congress who claimed to know more than Blix and ElBaradei — no apologies that I’m aware of, five years later… Worse, it’s been the same track in terms of threats toward Iran. It wasn’t the U.S. news media or Congressional leaders who confronted Bush administration lies about Iran nuclear weapons program, it was tendencies within the CIA etc… My book tries to probe the essence of this “repetition compulsion disorder” for war that remains so institutionalized in the USA…
Or “Let’s save our pessimism for better times.”
Norman, I know Dean Rusk’s son and he thought the picture of the kid putting the flower in the rifle at the March on the Pentagon was him but I poked around and found that it was not.
Hi Norman, don’t know if you know me, but I put signs on freeways – lots of them – in order to put ideas/text in front of as many eyeballs as possible, and also to claim the freeways as part of the commons, just as they were used for American flags after 9/11. At first I thought it’d only take a few high-profile signs for enough people to see them and think “Hey, I could do that!”, but ultimately, even after years of preaching, I’ve only been able to get a precious handful of people to follow my lead. Anything in your book that might serve as advice?
The most lasting image from the last big march on the Pentagon, on October 21, 1967, survives in the collective memory as summing up an era. Carnations in gun barrels were the essence of Flower Power. “I knew I had a good picture,” says photographer Bernie Boston, 73, who took the photo for the Washington Star. His editors, not imagining the significance, buried it deep inside the A section.
What became of the young demonstrator? By most accounts, he was George Harris, about 18 years old, a young actor from New York. He was on his way to San Francisco, where he would come out of the closet, take the name Hibiscus, and co-found the flamboyant, psychedelic gay-themed drag troupe called the Cockettes, according to filmmaker David Weissman, who made a critically acclaimed documentary of the group in 2002. Harris died in
That would be almost funny if it wasn’t so sad.
Sad to say, very rich progressives (and mostly what we call liberal foundations) are apt to think their media philanthropy is best given to the likes of PBS and NPR. As I mention in the book, these “public broadcasting” outlets provide news coverage that’s stylistically a bit different than commercial media but otherwise very similar… NPR in substance may as well, in most cases, stand for National Pentagon Radio…
Thanks for sharing. And that’s genuine, not a snark. Never have encountered anyone else who looked at like me.
I’d say there are hundreds/thousands of very fine U.S. websites now providing news and analysis/opinion…
I don’t have any children. I’m glad so many wonderful people who I know, do…
Yes and many I like better than that one. I meant that the goal of that group is to raise enough $ to create a TV network. I don’t know of many such efforts. I wish I did! :-)
Sometimes I regret it but I’ve got one close friend with a kid in Iraq and another who is barely staying out of the joint in Oakland!
Brilliant. National Pentagon Radio. Next week in the WNYC online comments I’m going to plagarize you.
Well, the Internet has made me a bit less downbeat about prospects for media democracy. At the same time, no technology has ever brought democracy. As always, up to the human element(s)…
Freeway blogger is awesome.
I would like to see the entire country make a simple statement together…
Like wear white on one day and stand out side silently on their lunch hour.
Talk about regret. My kid is a neocon.
I wouldn’t bring children into this world.
Nuthin’ wrong with hope. I just don’t feel that hope should be a precondition for affirming life by defending it and organizing against institutionalized death machinery… In other words: with or without hope (or whatever in between), let’s get on with what Herbert Marcuse called “the great refusal”…
In fact we have too many people already and it’s only getting worse and why they are waging war on the poor. They take up resources. Watch for some asshole to justify genocide to save the planet.
I agree and applaud similar efforts like orange on fridays, like http://www.iraqmoratorium.org but i have to wonder where we all got the idea that the most effective thing to say is… silence? Norman?
See the Century of the Self.
I think Kissinger and Ted Turner both sort of did, without putting it in those words.
H’mmm. We didn’t discuss this on Wednesday. Sounds like a topic for the next NYC FDL meetup.
Don’t participate in their deal.
Don’t play xmas, or tgiving, or sports, or ipod or pop tunes, or movies, or taxes for that matter.
RESIST!
Norman, you’ve discussed the ways in which we were told the Vietnam War was ending, while it was escalating. Now we seem to simply be being told that the Iraq “war” (occupation) is escalating, and if we don’t like it we can go shopping. Do you see a different strategy at work this time around?
I guess a crux of our opportunities is innovation (BTW, I’m always heartened to see antiwar / pro-social-justice signs hand-lettered along freeways) and refusal to go with confirmity or engage in undue deference to authority (especially the illegitimate kind)!
I suppose there are some good examples of that process in the book…
Thanks SanderO, but I’m afraid that perception is the biggest part of my problem – it’s not really more complex, or “awesome”, than just making larger-than-normal text and putting it in front of as many people as possible. I can reach, honest-to-G_d – a quarter million people on a good day, no problem – and it’s just killing me I can’t get more people to try it.
Please respect our guest who is here to talk about his book.
We appreciate everyone staying on topic.
About WNYC Radio (free-associating here): I was scheduled to go on a major hour-long talk show on WNYC to discuss “Made Love, Got War.” A couple of days before the scheduled live interview, I was bumped: to make room for an (apolitical) comedian..
whose show was that?
We’re suffering from a vacuum of political traction beyond marginal shifts of the sort most media-designated “serious” candidates are proposing… Internet activism has been positive but also has, naturally, severe limits… Part of the struggle outlined in my book is the need to find ways to authentically — and, hopefully, effectively — break silence…
Norman,
In the early part of the book, you touched on how the music helped to galvanize the protests (or at least that’s how I read it).
Do you see any way for music to escape the corporate control and regain that ability in today’s environment?
There are a lot of people around me but not as into politics and they are deeply worried. There is a lot of potential out there. We just need to tap into it somehow.
I’ll send an email to Brian Lehrer (weekdays 10-12) and Leonard Lopate (weekdays 12-2) encouraging them to have you on. And anyone else can do same: brianlehrershow@wnyc.org and lopateshow@wnyc.org. They’re both good interviewers, but haven’t kept up with the times, meaning they have MSM “journalist” guests who they treat with respect. Trying to influence them in their comments site. (You can listen live at WNYC. org, and to get to comments, click on shows, the one you are interested in, then the rest is obvious.)
Nixon felt a need to drop the numbers of U.S. troops steeply (level fell by half-a-million between mid-’69 and mid-’72). Bush hasn’t dropped numbers, though he well might a bit next year. Both reliant on escalating air war, on Vietnam and Iraq, as years went by and domestic opposition to war grew…
Why are the peace demos in this country as poorly attended as they are. Why are they larger in the EU? Are people scared of being identified with dissent or disgusted that when the do protest it is not covered or they show a bunch of nuts and a counter demo for “balance”?
I don’t have my calendar in front of me so I could have the name wrong, but I think it was Brian Lehrer Show. (This was at the start of October.)
Norman, I always find your talks and your writing informative and inspiring, but sometimes dispiriting and frustrating. Specifically, I come away with the notion that the crimes of the warmakers have always been about as bad as they are right now, have in fact been virtually identical from time immemorial, and the resistance from the public has always been roughly as strong or weak as it is right now, and the propaganda has always played just about the same role that it plays right now. All of this slams up pretty hard against my impression that we’re swiftly going to Hell in a handbasket and doing so in some remarkably new ways. And, while some of these ways are rhetorical, I don’t think that’s all there is to it. I mean, we now have a government that openly uses wars of aggression, detention, torture, assassination, illegal spying. We have a president who jokes about his war lies. We have major public campaigns of retribution against whistleblowers. Bush rewrites laws with public signing statements. Bush, Cheney, Rice, and gang openly refuse to comply with subpoenas or answer questions. And one of the major and majorly-funded operations of our government appears to be the propagation of fear. What else is Homeland Security for? A bill just passed the House (HR 1955) that would go after people who spread certain systems of belief. We are herded into Free Seech Zones. We’re arrested for shirts and signs. Naomi Wolf suggests we’re halfway down the road to fascism. Do you maintain that we pretty much always were? And if so, why doesn’t that make me feel any better? What’s the matter with me?
Thanks for that. I’ll mention it in my email.
Along with a lot of other people, I felt tremendous synergy betweeen music and building counterculture + antiwar/social-justice movements. One factor I think was that the music industry (ugly phrase, that) and radio stations were less corporatized [exception being rise of some noncommercial stations since then]. On the other hand, a lot of innovation now, cheaper to release recorded music today… but airplay is tough for strongly progressive-content music with political threads… I think we need to find better ways to build infrastructure to support grassroots music creation, production and distribution…
SORRY — Now that I see the name in your note, I think it was the Leonard Lopate Show. It was definitely one of the two. The comedian, as I recall, was Bob Newhart.
Naomi Wolf suggests we’re halfway down the road to fascism.
Naomi is selling books BTW.
Wouldn’t that sort of be a good thing? In my opinion the world has always been a mess and it always will be. Yet things change. A Buddhist type philosophy helps me to keep perspective. Give it a try.
Has Amy Goodman covered the book yet?
I think we are this close to fascism and that is what is keeping some people from coming out in public against the war. People have been intimidated BIG TIME.
Remember Guiliani Time. That shit worked.
There was a draft. Now, there is just media – electronic or just a goddamn piece of paper. The masses are not affected and not aware. They constantly reward themselves with stuff and entertainment.
Nuthin “the matter with” you that a good transition into authentic democracy wouldn’t cure… Seriously — When I say that the situation has often been roughly as bad (later LBJ, Nixon, Reagan, GWBush eras stand out) that’s not in any way complacent about the current realities… We should have resisted then just as much as we should now, and vice versa…
No problem. Both were on my email. Here’s the text I sent. I’ll send another with the possibility that it was LL, not BL. Your name is in the subject line, so the “his” in my first sentence has an antecedent.
Yes it would be a good thing, especially if positive change were possible. But it would suggest that I have a very bad grasp of history, meaning I need to read a lot of books. And there’s something else I don’t like about it – which may just be a desire to live in an important (even if bad) moment, but I think it’s more likely a desire to believe things were not always this awful and can more easily be restored to the way they were.
“Democracy Now” had me on, talking with Amy about “Made Love, Got War,” in early October.
Norman, how has Maryland changed politically over the years from what you describe in the book? What do you make of Al Wynn’s reformation in the face of an electoral challenge from Donna Edwards?
On the other hand this war could not have happened with a draft in place. That simple fact implies that progress has been made. Another measure of progress is that our discussion of gay issues is no longer about whether or not gay have a rights, but what kinds of right. That is again progress. Small yes but real none-the-less.
I am liking LS more and more each day… Right on sis!
Here is the linky
Soloman on Democracy Now 10-3-07
Exactly. Which is what Mr. Solomon and his book are discussing.
I got my first tastes of the “movement” as a youngster on the steps of Sproul Hall, and in the streets of Berkely and the City. Things have changed from those heady days of long ago. Things have gotten worse in terms of oppression. But I’m not about to give up the struggle. We were derided as radicals in those old days. We were no such thing. We were extreme progressives. ;0)
On the other hand this war could not have happened with a draft in place.
Really?
Not me, no thank you. I do not relish living in “interesting times”.
Norman, it seems to me there’s a pretense in the media right now that the way you make peace is to pass a bill, but of course the Democrats do not have the votes to override a veto. The fact that they could simply stop passing bills to fund the occupation of Iraq, and back that up with a filibuster of any such bills, is a fact that’s hard to dispute but impossible to even raise. If our schools taught the basic workings of our government, would that make it harder on the media to maintain certain lies? Short of that, in the short term, what can we do about this particular lie that is about to result in more money for the occupation? Even the peace groups play along and support bills to fund a withdrawal (as if that’s needed), but when those bills fail, the myth that a bill is needed (that it even makes sense to be talking about passing bills) remains, and we immediately get another no-strings funding bill. It’s not just the astroturf groups playing along. Truly independent organizations (albeit constituted by people who read papers and watch TV) are playing along with the pass-a-bill idea. Does your experience and study suggest that there is any way to counter this?
I am a bit older than Mr Solomon and aside from gay issues I see little social progress in my lifetime. In fact since the Regan revolution and the collapse of the USSR I see we are back sliding. VietNam redux
I agree. Asked a high school classmate who was a defendant in the Vietnam War protester trial with Dr. Benjamin Spock what he thought about anti-war activity now vs. then. He didn’t respond to my email, so I didn’t know what to think.
Most of my teenage years were in the Maryland suburbs of D.C., during the 1960s.. Writing the book gave me a chance to try to describe the blend of resistance to change (segregation, conformity as the Vietnam War escalated, frozen tracks to professionalism, rigid cerebral-ized body armor) and the emergence of civil rights, counterculture, antiwar activism and articulated (as well as less-than-articulate) rage. When I visit the same area now (Montgomery County and adjoining areas of Prince George’s County), it’s so much more lively and multicultural and, it seems, less deadened… though it’s got a lot of the standard American numbing… and nature seems to be largely, still, in exile… The Donna Edwards primary campaign for Congress, against the incumbent Democrat Al Wynn, was very encouraging to me two years ago and I’m hopeful (there’s that word) that this time she’ll defeat him, as she came close to doing last time — which certainly explains why he’s been a “born-again” (though not credible) talking progressive since his near-defeat…
There is no antiwar movement. No Abby Hoffman… no black panther party, no Young lords… no weather underground… we have bloggers of course..
Yeah, I believe that Raven. Can’t prove it.
I sometimes think of a lake that moves in different directions at different layers… So, for instance: progress on gay rights, women’s rights, curtailing smoking… opposite of progress in many other ways…
thanks
and if we could get 200 more non-credible progressives (representatives forced to represent us) I’d take em, might even prefer em that way :-)
What happened to the idealism of the 60s is that the dreamers decided to cash out and be Jerry Rubens and do the ME ME ME thing instead of the WE thing.
Right on Michael Moore. Can we clone him?
I see many things on a micro level that are very encouraging, along the lines that you describe. But the oppression from the top seems so very much more throwback than I ever expected to see in my lifetime. How to reconcile?
I guess it really doesn’t matter since we haven’t had a draft for over 30 years. I’m sure you agree this is no mistake, these clowns know exactly what they are doing.
Countering this fundamental is a steep climb. What you point out is so centrally true, and maybe that’s a reason it’s so difficult to make it stick politically or even get it mentioned in major media. A reading of the U.S. Constitution confirms that all the Congress has to do to stop the U.S. war effort in Iraq is — to do nothing. No appropriations, no war effort.
What progression on women’s rights? As a 63-year old who spent 30 years on Wall St, I don’t see much change.
all good progress, i think we all agree, but related in a way to the theme around p 64 of Norman’s book — we’ve made progress on issues of identity (if you’re not a Muslim or an immigrant) but not on poverty and not on war. And while we need progress in all of these areas, some seem harder to achieve or even work on…
p.s. — As to how to counter it: We need to say it louder and more effectively via media and activism. And organize at the grassroots to replace war-money-voting members of Congress with people who’ve pledged to refuse to go with the war appropriations.
I wouldn’t give them that much credit Raven. I think that these clowns like to think they know what they are doing. And I think that progressives buy into that. But I am not so sure any more that they actually know diddly squat. George Bush has helped me in that a lot.
Feingold held hearings on this that were not well covered, but if he threatened a filibuster, that I think WOULD be covered and force a complete change in the story – agree?
Can’t quite reconcile.
The Dickens line, rendered cliche by overuse perhaps, seems to apply:
Best of times and worst of times.
I think they know that they are doing in terms of having a back door draft with the guard and reserves. Otherwise they couldn’t pour piss out of a boot if the instructions were on the heel.
It’s amazing what a couple of Senators could do, given the Senate rules. Mike Gravel filibustered the draft to extinction (in 1971, I think it was)…
I agree with you. Women’s rights have suffered lately. But when I look at the kids there are reasons to be hopeful.
Well 92 have made that pledge, but most of them have already violated it once and seem prepared to do so again (Woolsey, Lee, and Waters have taken a public stand this time, but I don’t know what they’re even trying to do to whip those 92). Of course, Kucinich will vote No. But a half dozen No votes doesn’t register.
ROFLOL!
Barbara Boxer challenged the election results alone, alone supports impeachment. Where is she?????
I don’t sense the cohesiveness, the sense of purpose or the willingness of todays peace movement to make huge scarifices, like going to jail or being beaten up and gassed by the authorities. I don’t get the impression of camaraderie like our old movement had. Perhaps I’m wrong, and just being a bit sentimental.
I used to think that 50 years was a very long time. Most young people do… Now, in personal and political terms, it seems like a shorter and shorter time. We use our time and/or we lose it forever. In that light, yet another reason (as if we needed more) to un-numb ourselves and live from our deeper selves, in words and actions…
Were it only so. French Revolution. Do we even know now what kind of times it was? IANAH (I am not an historian), but it seems that the legacy is not yet definitively written. I refer to the French ideal of “equality, fraternity, brotherhood,” and their current lack thereof for their Muslim immigrants, including several French generations after immigration. Raising again the age old Q about whether lip service is better than no service at all. A centers on notion of hypocrisy.
But is that because the media will not cover this? (not as big as Vnam, but approaching)
I like that.
One of the aspects of the ’60s peace movement that I remembered often while writing this book was the downsides, including a lot of rhetoric and posturing. Less of that now, I think. But now there is a sort of overall moderating tone that has been effectively coopted to a large extent… And, in the words (if I’m remembering correctly) of a 40-year-old Donovan song, “And the war drags on…” Our responses suffer from psyhic numbing, on the whole. In the book, I quote Dave Dellinger, speaking outside the 1972 Republican National Convention. “It is as bad as it seems,” he said. Still is.
Norman, you mention the Institute for Public Accuracy in the book. Can you describe what it’s doing?
Norman,
You were born in 1951?
Just a question.
Sometimes I feel the country is just in a big media-induced sleep, with a bunch of radical insomniacs running around shouting “Fire!!!”", and people are slow to awaken, and when they do, they just don’t know what to do, and then they end up stumbling back to bed to sleep some more. Lately though, I do think more and more people are waking up and staying awake. There is quite a difference between now and five years ago….Katrina helped. JMHO.
i hope Norman can stay here all night, but just in case – before he goes – can we all THANK him for the incredible job he’s doing?
And, Norman, can you reassure us that making love at least won’t hurt anything?
Thank you Norman!!!
And Thank you David!!
Norman, David, Thank you for coming to the Lake and spending time with us.
I founded IPA ten years ago to promote progressive voices in news media — TV/radio/newspapers/web. Still with that goal, we now put out 200+ news releases per year, going to 9,000 or so reporters/producers/editors/columnists… IPA taps into some of the enormnous human wealth of expertise, insight, analysis and empathy that’s widespread among researchers, academics, writers, activists… All of IPA’s news releases are archived at http://www.accuracy.org … and people can sign up to receive the releases via email…
If you want to change the world, change yourself.
Find that peace that lies within, that “I” that observes but does not judge. Go there first.
America needs leaders for everything. Coalitions don’t cut it in america. The great leader meme was driven into our head and every populist is taken down.
People who can lead and are populist, like Gore are afraid of “the man” because they play dirty and use real bullets.
The left is rudderless. They even trashed milquetoast “liberal” as akin to communist. The clan turned into skinheads and right wing militia groups. Lovely.
What’s hot in the Hamptons? Who is Paul McCartney dating? What rubbish. Where is the old Bob Dylan when you need him?
yes, born in 1951
Around me many people are aware, they just don’t know what to do or feel there is nothing they can do.
Your book is not available to me but one thing it does suggest is that there is only one thing in the world you have a say in about improving the world, and that one thing is you and how you conduct yourself, and that can change the world, aka Gandhi, MLK to name only two practitioners.
> If you want to change the world, change yourself.
> Find that peace that lies within, that “I” that observes but does not > judge. Go there first.
I respect this outlook. But I don’t agree with it. Much of “Made Love, Got War” is a narrative that challenges the idea of making change first-and-foremost from within.
Thank you so much Normon and David.
Norman, I only hope I live to see you stuff a giant sunflower down the gun barrel cameras of General Electric, Viacom, and Disney.
Obviously we don’t have draft cards to burn any more. But we do have IRS tax bills we could burn or send back with a note attached about no more war(s). A couple of fairly good examples of civil disobedience perhaps. But of course such actions require guts.
I see the clock says it’s time to go… for now. But I’ll get back here sometime around the wee hours tonight and respond to other posts… I really appreciate FDL — every day, and today for the chance to be part of this discussion… Yours for flowers into gun barrels,
Norman
and bail monies
So what leadership actions are you providing?
Thanks for joining us, Norman and David. Great discussion.
Thank you Norman for your time today and all your efforts.
If all the progressives; all the liberals; all the left of center Democrats and all the independents, and all the families of soldiers who are tired of Iraq, and against war would do it, they couldn’t lock us all up.
Hi Norman,
Sorry I missed you. I want to apologize to Jane, FDL and Norman because I was supposed to do the Book Salon, but I came down with a virus on Tuesday and cancelled only a few days ago. I should have been more responsible. Being sick is no excuse.
It’s a wonderful book!
New thread: Ian Welsh on innovation.
remind me again as to how many are on no fly lists, have passports, have means to become outside the country? I should have indicated /snark on my comment – I had thought to extend with “and lawyers fees” as well but didn’t. Please look at H-1955 and change the extent of a few words and see possible peril. Prisons can have no walls at all, just a list will do.
We’re so happy you’re back up and posting over at C&L today, John. Congratulations on your recovery.
Thanks so much for being here, Norman. It was a delight to have you. And David, we really appreciate you stepping in at the end like that, you’re a fabulous pinch hitter!
Thanks Jane H, and Norman Solomon for your experience and writing about it. Magnificent intro as well. All the best…..
Many don’t agree, but let’s face it. Norman made a great case for how nothing has changed in his lifetime (and mine; I’m 13 years older than he) and all we seem to do is tinker with process which doesn’t work. Hasn’t worked.
So, I’ve given up on much of that, and simply look after my basis first.
I do get a lot of flack about it!
Well perhaps you can enlighten us about what you would do about the issue of getting diplomacy to replace war.
John, no apology needed. To get sick is human, to persevere divine… and there’s no question you persevere wonderfully…