Marty Lederman speculates that it was Dana Priest’s Pulitzer-Prize winning series on CIA Black Sites in 2005 that made everybody think they better start destroying evidence and covering their tracks:
Let’s not lose sight of the big picture. This was not something they did on the spur of the moment. They vetted it with Rockefeller and Harman, for goodness’ sake, and then destroyed the tapes after Harman urged them not to do so. And right after Judge Brinkema’s orders started hitting close to home and Dana Priest broke the black sites story. [Check out this great timeline from emptywheel -- pay close attention to all that's going on in October/November 2005.] I retract what I said earlier: This was the CIA. They must have gotten DOJ approval (Gonzales, anyway) for the destruction. And the POTUS and/or VP, too. And all of these folks they knew full well what the fallout might be. And they knew about criminal laws involving obstruction. Most importantly, they were actually destroying what might be incredibly valuable evidence for future uses — valuable for criminal trials, for intelligence investigations, for training purposes, and, most importantly, as a key tile in their vaunted, hallowed "mosaic" of evidence developed to construct an accurate story about al Qaeda.
And yet they chose to destroy anyway, after what must have been a lot of internal debate. Which goes to show that . . . the cover-up is not worse than the crime, and they knew it. Those tapes must have depicted pretty gruesome evidence of serious criminal conduct. Conduct that would be proof positive of serious breaches of at least two treaties. Conduct approved and implemented at the highest levels of government.
Marcy wonders about John Yoo’s culpability — did he even believe the legal advice he was giving?
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JANE!!!
Why did they film it in the first place?
this is sick stuff, those tapes had to be incredible, they knew as a fact we knew about the tapes and they knew there would be trouble if they destroyed the tapes
yet the tapes were SO bad they had to destroy them and take the heat rather then face the crimes associated with the attrocities in those tapes
what other crimes are committed on those tapes?
for instance, did people die?
that would be murder…they would definately be better off with obstruction of justice rather then a murder charge
all we have to do is find out the victims on the tape, are they still alive and are they willing to testify as to what was done to them in our name
that’s what should be the next step
one of a few reasons;
1) they didn’t know how far the
torturers2) they wanted documentation for actions they took and why they took them
3) masterbation material
Maybe that’s the key, Perris. I recall some have come forward saying they were tortured while in the hands of the U.S. government. Could it be that a tape exists documenting the torture of someone later released by the government as having no terror connection?
my number one should read “they didn’t know how far the interigators would go”
This story has to make it out to the people of this country. It will show the undecided that it is time for a recall.
Larry Johnson has a post on the nonsense used as reasoning for destruction.
How many situations follow the identical behavior by the regime as they obstructed justice over the years? Mr. Fitzgerald knows. And again, after many hundreds of times before, there is no impeachment hearing today.
Like the German SS – they believed there was “sound science” in torture (relatives of the flatearth intelligent design group). And fiction writers such as Vincent Flynn were putting out fast paced novels situated in the middle east in which torture on the part of CIA spooks helped in book after book to save the US from vicious attacks.
All I can think if is snuff films. But then, you wonder why Nixon taped himself back then, too.
I wonder if jane might think to ask larry to join her here at the our “mall of progressives”
nixon thought his tapes were not subject to court discretion, he also didn’t think anyone could find out about them
these tapes don’t fit that discription
They always film interrogations. It’s SOP.
Of course it is evidence, ain’t it? But evidence in these cases that they tortured the perps.
Of course if it was just enhanced interrogation wnhy wouldn’t they show the world without the sound what that looks like? They could even blur the faces and we could see enhanced interrogation in practice.
BECAUSE THEY WERE TORTURING THE SOBs. That’s why.
Sounds like they TORTURED and DESTROYED EVIDENCE and CONSPIRED to do it. Triple whammy!
STRUGGLE!
What were Jane Harmon and Rockefeller doing while sitting on the intelligence (sic) committees? I am appalled at the lack of cajones and morality. Fuck classified–we’re talking torture here. They had an obligation to go public. Does anyone still wonder why impeachment is off the table?
Is impeachment still hanging off the table?
How much do we love having Marcy in the house?
And, some in the neocon group have been willing kill (Pat Tillman, the British scientist) and to out a CIA agent (Valerie Plame) and to lie in the newspapers (Judith Miller, Michael Gordon). To these ideology ueber alles folks, torture is nothing. And, of course, Is*ael has been doing it all along from what i understand.
Jane, Marcy is a goddess, and I love having her here.
OT,
For you baseball fans, the Mitchell Report will hit the
grandstands next week, according to out of uniform sources (NYT)
Someone has been blackmailed or bribed AND blackmailed and so they are behaving republican.
Struggle!
Or frightened into believing they will be swiftboated on US security and support for I* issues.
Richmond is more than right. He is spot on. CIA and this crowd will do ANYTHING … A N Y T H I N G to advance their agenda. Rule of law? How quaint.
Struggle!
The argument that Hayden offers is that they destroyed the tapes to protect the identity of the interrogators.
Maybe someone can answer one of these questions:
Why couldn’t they doctor the identity of the interrogators out from the tapes? Blot faces, etc.
How far into the public record are interrogation tapes ever released to? Certainly I would imagine that tapes of interrogations are not available to the public. But who would have access to these tapes? IMO, only certain CIA officials.
SanderO, but of course it was the CIA graybacks (senior males) who recently pulled the plug on the Iran nuclear issue. In short, like in Alice in Wonderland, it keeps gettin curiouser and curioser
Maybe ABC’ll but matthew dowd on the story.
According to Dana Peroxide, the chimp knows nothing about the CIA’s
Destruction…
The only explanation for destroying those tapes is that they would incriminate those involved in the interrogation. END OF STORY. Anyone who believes there could possibly another explanation is 100% drunk on koolaid.
Another impeachable crime of this administration.
Now get the logs showing who weighed in the matter. INCLUDING the congress critters who may have given it a pass. IMPEACH THEM TOO
Struggle!
Nothing to see HERE!
Move along….
Hayden’s reason for destroying the tapes is horse shit. These tapes are only distributed internal to the CIA. Hayden says these tapes must be destroyed in case al Qaeda gets their hands on them (somehow). Using that fabulous logic, all CIA documents ought to be destroyed because, well, al Qaeda might get their hands on them (somehow).
Hayden, go back to playing pop warner. You can’t cut it in this department.
I’m no lawyer but I have no doubt that Woo would have found justification for putting yellow stars on Jews.
I don’t go around yelling “Nazi!” or “Fascist!” like some but John Yoo is our Adolph Eichmann.
He justifies the unthinkable.
.
Did it ever occur to you that most all of Bush’s hires are either incompetent or are acting stupid on orders from above?
OT Think Progress has up that “Freedom Watch’s” new ad was rejected by NBC. I think, maybe some in the MSM is beginning to feel the winds of change.
Not enough. CNN is running it. I think CBS as well.
Nelson. OK then – I defer. And, there definitely will be pushback from the Neocons on the Iran nuclear issue in the weeks ahead.
I have now decided the people in the video have died
that’s why they had to destroy the tapes and it’s why the COULD destroy the tapes
if the people were alive they couldn’t destroy the tapes, there would be witnesses and it would no longer be “their word against ours”
the people have to be unavailable for these tapes to be safely destroyed
we’re talking murder here, that’s what happened and I am convinced
Evidence that would take you to Den Haag to the World Court under International law would definitely be worse than Obstruction. Who will be the Obstructor-in-Chief, though, the President? He could be Impeached with this evidence for letting this happen on his watch and then lying to the world about it. Either way would be bad, but since Nancy basically gave him a free reign of terror, from their prospective, they did the right thing.
What I want to know is how you, Perris, think we could find the victims? Their lawyers are even restricted. Our government has apparently even denied the Red Cross from interviews with detainees. We have no standing to even find out whether the government has been spying on any of us, or all of us. How would we know who to ask? Good luck with that, is all I can say.
Of course and some nasty torture.
But add to that:
obstructing justice
Conspiracy
Lying to congress (felony whether under oath of not)
we can find the victims or imply that they died simply by making the case;
“if you cannot produce the victims we have to assume they did not survive your “enhanced interogation”
they either produce the victims or are implicated
I suppose you have to play the way they do:
Anyone who was involved in the enhanced interrogation gets:
$10MM
immunity from prosecution
family protection and witness protection
new identity and safe passage out of the USA
for spilling the beans
Worth it?
Perris. The catch 22 is that many of those prisoners were in prison without anyone knowing there whereabouts.
I say yes…for the first few, I would say the offer is off the table if they are not among the first to testify on behalf of their country
Sadist
GOPSOP.is the fuckerator in chief still gonna tell us “We do not torture”?
this is truly horrifying.
Didn’t Dick Cheney view and comment on those tapes? or was it the photographs?
Anyone remember the date when that “recycling” truck was parked outside of the VPs house? Any relevance to the date line here?
Marcy wonders about John Woo’s culpability
John Woo has nothing to answer for except some great Hong Kong action movies. (Well, okay, his American efforts have not be as good. . .)
[RBG Note; I can’t imagine how a former Hollywood producer might make that typo. Refresh your browsers and it’s been corrected.]
Cheney probably has a tape and tries his darnedest to masturbate to them, but he’s probably impotent now so he acts meaner.
Frankly no one fractures the English language more excrutiatingly than John Woo. How he got a BA much less a law degree is beyond me.
We get this much more than we may even realize. I watch NCIS weekly. I watch the show. I also watch and enjoy “The Unit”. Torture is no stranger to those shows, as well as, of course, things like “24″. The difference is, I can separate reality from fiction. I loved West Wing very much, too, but if a real live President ever did some of the things that Jed Bartlett did, I’m sure I would be up in arms!
Really? he is inarticulate? Maybe he thinks in emoticons?
Yoo, not Woo.
excuse me, Israeli torture is not physical, its psychological. I could, as a Jew, make an obnoxious observation about that, but I’m afraid the goyim would run with it.
Thanks Matt. My bad. I knew that, but having a hard time coordinating my brain and fingers.
Think we could steal him from TPM, do you? I notice TPM is now referring quite differently to Huffpo, too. Something about their sister site? Loose partnership? There’s some relationship there.
Gotta go check Washington Monthly, Kevin Drum’s cat blogging today since it’s Friday.
The next question should be: Who did the victims implicate? That might be very interesting and very dangerous to the White House.
LeeNYC from what I have read it has included both.
I am shocked. This information from interrogations was supposed to be given to the (now totally discredited) 9-11 Commission. This is more obstruction of justice. None of the war profiteers wants an accurate story about the relationship between the Bin Laden’s and the Bushies.
????
Wonkette: Shreddin’ with Dick!
How about this for tin foil shit. They tortured and brainwashed these guys because they could lead everything back to a CIA and MOSAD black ops. Can’t have that seeing the light of day. So they tortured them into all sorts of fake confessions which don’t even gybe with reality so the conflict would prove that they we putting words in these guys mouths.
They use all sorts of mind control and mind altering techniques INCLUDING drugs in their madness. Yea.. the CIA.
Struggle!
Ouch. Wouldn’t all the little paper cuts hurt?
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{This much!}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
How do we know they didn’t line them up after they tortured them and machine gun them down???????….Contractors would do that…and be immune to prosecution. We don’t know that this didn’t happen…so the government must be made to produce the prisoners…all of them.
Maccamaw: I could out yell you but just let me say ditto +++
How do we know that the prisoners held at Gitmo that are no longer at Gitmo were actually released??? They could be dead.
Then who is Karl Rove?
I haven’t tried doing a link here yet, but here goes:
KSM &
Ramsi bin al Shib are the two alleged victims who are allegedly both alive.
Did you ever read this???????:
“US military officials are making preparations for the trial and possible execution of captives held in Guantanamo Bay, including the construction of a “death chamber”.
“A building at the detention camp in Cuba for suspected al-Qaida members is being renovated to serve as a courtroom for military tribunals, signalling that the US is moving towards bringing charges against some of the prisoners.”
(Although it says Prisonplanet, it is an article from the Guardian/2003)
http://www.prisonplanet.com/us…..tanamo.htm
The prospect of possible executions will cause an uproar among human rights advocates and foreign governments, who have railed against the conditions of prisoners and the length of their detention. The 680 detainees are being held as “illegal combatants”, allowing the US to sidestep the conventions that govern the holding of prisoners of war. “
If the prisoners died..the people responsible are subject to the death penalty under the 1996 US War Crimes Law.
Sorry, so after you click on the ” and paste in the link, then what?
I also wonder whether this isn’t a response to those senior CIA people who brought out the new Iran nuclear report. In other words, they may have threatened to cite the torture tapes if the CIA didn’t allow the report to be released. ONce it was released, others in the CIA may have countered by insisting that all the tapes were destroyed. Seems to me the two are closely related, both within the same agency, and involving the ME.
Anyone who thinks that Isr*el doesn’t use any toruter ever invented is delusionary.
WEll, I’m half way there. How would I rename the link?
(PS…it’s the George Clooney/Larry Craig satire.
OT..Some good news:
.
NM-Sen: Chavez dropping out
kos
Israel does it… is water wet?
Nazi Germany
Fascist Italy
Bushist America. Surely our darkest hour.
Where is the proof that these prisoners were ever released??? Where is the proof!!
“Renovation work such as rewiring has begun on a number of buildings which could later be designated as courts for the tribunals.
General Miller told AP there are also plans to build a permanent prison block for those convicted and sentenced and an execution chamber should any be sentenced to death.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2979076.stm
“We’re getting ready so we won’t be starting from scratch,” he said.
The detainees held at Camp Delta on the isolated US base include about 680 people captured during the war against the Taleban in Afghanistan, launched by the US after the 11 September 2001 attacks.”
OT (rawstory): “Isr*el still considering Iran attack.” plus ca change!
Very good news:
(snip)
link
But, but, but… they’re our friends for the cocktail wienie and quail fingers brunches… oh wait….
you’re right, Jane. The crimes are a blot on our country that must be cleansed by truth and full disclosure. Not another Nixonian pardon whitewash.
Don’t we know of, or haven’t we heard of, sometime in the not too distant past, a death from waterboarding? Just one? Even so, how would we ever find out his/her name? What do you do? Issue a John Doe warrant with no specifics? It’d be more than an uphill battle. It’d be even harder to find the perpetrator. I can just see it now! “We’ll give you immunity if you roll over on who told you to do this,” all the way up to the Prez!
Isn’t there something about this in Alice in Wonderland? Doesn’t the Red Queen say something like: “Punishment first. Then the trial.”?
Back to buying indulgences. Retro is IN.
I heard a great George Carlin riff the other day that included a reference to an overweight gentleman who “hadn’t seen his d*ck since Nixon was president.” Seems that might apply to the Big Dickster too, haw haw.
Raw Story reports “I do not recall” is being used again by Kommander Decider Guy. Remember, he also forgot about who disbanded the Iraqi army. It is hard to remember all this stuff. But he does remember how many Oil Wells in Iraq that belong to Texans. Stepford Spokesperson Perrino comment about Darth Cheney is interesting.
Steve -on Lourdes. You beat me. Nothing like the Opus Dei pope providing a back-door entry for cheaters (i.e. those who couldn’t get there through their own “acts.” I bet he has a relative who runs the local hotel there.
how did youse new yawkahs firepup meetup go? Any pix?
“I’ll refer you to the Vice President’s Office” as if it’s a separate agency not under control of the White House.
oh, never mind.
Under the US law, death of the prisoner is a prerequisite for the death penalty. Indictment for War Crimes only requires violation of international law.
US Code: Title 18,2441
link
Got some by email & some were posted. Off to look for them.
Goebbels.
Of course, Goebbels never had a Newseek column…
There is that.
.
Here you go. I really look better in person.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21696200@N08/
I am shocked!!!!!
(snip)
HuffPo
To be serious for a moment, I think they wouldn’t dare bomb Iran at this juncture. Who thinks I’m delusional?
yay! i’ve been wanting to see these!
thanks for posting!
1,688 ADAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen Hamsher and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“They vetted it with Rockefeller and Harmon, for goodness sakes…”
I don’t care if Harmon told ‘em not to destroy the tapes, her slimy hands are all over the torture and telecom spyin’ shit…where is Howie Klein, can Blue America find a least one legitimate progressive in Santa Monica-Wilshire-Beverly Hills ta run this A*P*C shill outta office in the primary??!! Good lord, the DLC-Clintonista-A*P*C contamination in this Democratic Party is the biggest problem we face in tryin’ ta restore constitutional government!
Has anyone heard from Howie about runnin’ someone against this right-wing witch??!!
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE BRANDY…I DON’T WANT ANYMORE A THESE BAD DREAMS!!
This———————————————–Much!
So many bad Ds, so little time. Schumer (my Sen) is on top of my list.
ABC Nightly News reported up front on the CIA story. And closed with their person of the week: she kept her head, moved to a security area, and reported to the dispatcher so they knew the gunman in the Omaha mall was dead.
I hope you’ll look for both these stories at the ABC website.
Heroes come in many forms. Ordinary people who step up when duty calls. Our National Guard and soldiers are heroic persons. She is one, too.
Any who would call the best of our America to the dark duty BushCo has are no heroes. The gang of outlaws in the WH are no heroes.
So the Catholic Church is now back to selling indulgences. Pretty expensive if you ask me…I couldn’t afford a trip to Lourdes, even if the dollar wasn’t down.!
I didn’t see a thread that meshes with these, but I noticed the SSJC i.e. the Senate Secret Judiciary Committee has taken the vote on the Specter Immunity for Telcoms off the Schedule from Thursday 12/6/07 and added this very descriptive meeting for Tuesday December 11, 2007:
Secret Senate Judiciary Subcom Meetings:
Tuesday, Dec. 13, 2007
2:30 p.m.
Intelligence
To hold closed hearings to examine certain
intelligence matters.
SH-219
Also the Sheldon who is cosmically named “Whitehouse” is upset that he belives of all things that DOJ is promulgating secret (hey notice that word again that pervades Bush government) secret opinions out of OLC. My word, how could they!
Those three principles, he said, boiled down to:
1. “I don’t have to follow my own rules, and I don’t have to tell you when I’m breaking them.”
2. “I get to determine what my own powers are.”
3. “The Department of Justice doesn’t tell me what the law is, I tell the Department of Justice what the law is.”
from
The Sheldon Cosmically Named Whitehouse’s Website
Title: Look What the Bush Administration Does Behind Our Backs
(While We’re glued to the Teeveee Drooling over the 3000th showing of an ambulance leaving an Omaha mall or prisoners leaving an Aruba prison after getting the nuances of Britney and Baby Daddies down)
Hey Oprah is coming to the state of Obamaland to a football stadium near you.
If she can make everychild in America left behind read Anna Karenina
maybe she can get some of them chilluns to vote for Barack.
Oprah’s audience has a big component of OWW (Older White Wimins)and those are prime time voters for Howard Wolfson and his babe Hillary Whatsherface.
After Nancy (Look at all my Achievements) Pelosi crowed on her maginificent compromise with Representative Dingle to up gas milage requirements to 35 mpg in the lightening fast speed of 13 years, the Senate and its Spineless Democrats voted it down this afternoon.
Maybe we can get a requirement out of the Spineless Dems for 1 mile per gallon–1 mile per galloon sounds spiffy.
The this is for you!!
link
How many of you read this small font without dialing it up?
It’s still money for nothin’!
OT…
A proposed initiative that drew national attention for its potential to affect next year’s presidential election will not appear on the June ballot, organizers said Thursday.
Republican backers of the measure, which could have tilted the presidential contest toward the GOP nominee by changing how California awards electoral votes, conceded that they were unable to raise sufficient funds
latimes
me!!!
the font is too small for my eyes.
Too late to primary her *ss! Would’ve been nice… Similarly, Nancy’s Okole, too… 8-(
Rut…Roh..
TPM
‘Control’- ‘+’ should do the trick…
i told you yesterday, the senate judiciary committee business meeting is neither secret nor closed. today it looks like you’re confusing the judiciary and intelligence committees.
i’m all for hold the dems accountable when they screw up… but i’m dead set against accusing them of things that just aren’t so.
No one thinks you’re delusional, but the Bush regime sure as hell is.
The United States does not have any forces on the ground to attack Iran. They broke the military with Iraq. Bombing Iran would do little to go after nuclear facilities if they actually existed because you have an area the size of Texas and they would be dispersed and way under ground and impervious to US bomb strikes. If there were any viable targets, Israel would have taken them out long ago. Israel doesn’t wait for the imbecilic US if there are nuclear targets and reactors to go after as history has shown.
The chickenhawks are killing National Guard troops and reservists and poor people of color basically filling Dover coffins with them.
Chickenhawks don’t put chickenhawk kids or family members in harms way any more than Henry Kravis goes to the trouble of paying any taxes.
True, and Mitch McConnell put it oh so brilliantly;
Special prosecutor!!!
Congress should demand a special prosecutor to investigate the destruction of evidence! This is like Nixon and the oval office tapes, and the 18 minutes.
Calling Cap’n Fitz!!!! To the Con, ASAP!
Bob in HI
Not I. I’m not convinced the military would follow an order given by this madman.
And you look beautiful!
You are 100% correct. I was mistakenly linking to the Daily Digest Committee Meetings/Hearings Schedule instead of Senate Judiciary. The Intelligence Hearings on Intelligence are secret. When anything becomes public you will find most of the Democrats on the Committe with the exception of Russ Feingold have been spineless including Whitehouse who did in fact vote for the Jello Jay agreement to grant Telco Immunity a couple weeks ago.
The Democrats on Senate Intelligence could not have been more spineless in their latest markup that reported out of their committee that posed as an Intelligence bill.
I’d invite you with relish to show me a point in time in the 110th Congress when the Democrats on the Senate Judiciary haven’t screwed up. This will be entertaining indeed.
A Merry Fitzmas and Hau’oli Makahiki hou, to ya! *g*
“How much do we love having Marcy in the house?”
Lots, evidently. More than 300 comments today on one thread alone. I just spent a bunch of time there. We loves us some Marcy, and the more, the better!
But I’m missing Christy, too. I can’t wait until she gets back! What with the NIE, and the Whitehouse speech, there’s plenty of grist for her mill!
Bob in HI
And all this firepup ink on Iraq and only one thing will bring soldiers home from the eternal Iraq “war” and eternal Iraq bases (I lost count of how many) and the $600 billion and growing Iraq embassy when every day Iraquis hardly have ghetto huts to live in and don’t have running water or electricity more than 4 hours a day.
What they do have in spades is a cholera pandemic that’s growing. I don’t hear pudding head Laura Bushie talkin’ much about the cholera pandemic since her hospital has not gotten farther than the foundation that was started years ago. Cholera must be above Laura’s pay grade.
That one thing is a DRAFT pure and simple. It’s long overdue. Put Chris Mathews and Tim Russerts kids in Iraq. See how fast the boys come home.
Hey eCAHNomics!
If you’re still down here, how can I get ahold of you on the outside?
no F.
True, but, it should be a draft for National Service, be it Americorps, Peace Corps, etc… Not specifically to the military, only…
Does this mean Marcy Wheeler has permanantly left The Next Hurrah now and moved her site to here and someone else is taking over The Next Hurrah or that Marcy will be posting duplicate threads on The Next Hurrah?
their very purpose WAS to break the military
they want every single function of government privatized, the military had to be broken in order to force us into hiring mercenaries like blackwater
this is the very plan, break fema, break the public school system, break medicare, break social security, break our armed forces, break our infrastucture, our roads, our bridges
our system of justice
break it
then get the service provided by private industry
it is what they had planned, it’s what they’ve tried wherever there is a catastrophy in milton freidman’s wet dream
it fails every time, it is an idea who’s only purpose is putting the treasure of nations in the pockets of a few people
break it…that’s the plan
How do you change the time on the posts?
Poor is the operative word. Things may have changed but when I ran the numbers about six months ago, I was expecting to see that Hispanics were taking a disproportionate number of casualties. What I found was the “Whites” were at their % of the population, Hispanics were at their % and African-Americans were decreased from their %.
They are stymied at fixing the intel around the policy. Tried that once and got caught.
This time they will go straight to a false flag to rally the country… for their next shock and awe. Oh right they did that on 911. Yea yea it worked like a charm.
Growth industry magnetic bumper stickers, flags and ribbons!
Are the forces made up in proportion to the ethnic demographics in the country?
“How many of you read this small font without dialing it up?”
I dialed up yesterday but have been struggling with the tiny type today. What gets my gizzard more, however, is the unreadability of the commenter’s name and comment number over on FDL. Here, with black on baby blue, its much better.
Bob in HI
I have it dialed up permanently for all websites, you can do that through the tools applet, you have to uncheck “allow websites to decide”
Actually, there’s higher Latino and African American ratios serving in the military, than is reflective of the national norm…
I read somewhere (really can’t recall where) that the preachers in the Black Churchs were counseling the young not to join up for the war and that fewer Blacks were and Listening and Not Enlisting.
Maybe a reason for the change in the %.
But I find it Interesting.
What data were ya using, Steve?
Heh, KO hits another HR! “Spies, Lies, and Videotape!”
“A Merry Fitzmas and Hau’oli Makahiki hou, to ya! *g*”
Mahalo nui loa! and a mele kalikimaka to you, too!
Hey, I heard there was a blizzard on the Big Isle peaks recently! Just in time for Fitzmas!
Bob in HI
new thread, folks
http://icasualties.org/oif/ and US census data..
Ah, I see, you’re only looking at the casualty #’s, not the enlistment #’s… I believe Military Times can provide the numbers… I’ll see if I can find a link…
I respectfully disagree. Let’s see if the elitsia (they know who they are) and the people with the big homes and multiple toys get engaged when their kiddies get their asses hauled to Iraq. I’m sick and tired of seeing columns from bumper sticker chicken hawks saying “We Must Win” Win what? Against and over whom?
The Iraqui parliament has recessed for another month. It’s a joke. Our puppet governmnent there is a joke. The Shiite racist El Maliki is a joke.
The people of this country and their Congress have been completely deliberately indifferent as to the dispicable Dover coffins being filled, the lack of protection for 85% of the deaths caused by explosive devices, and the myriad problems that have not been solved by the American Occupation of Iraq not limited to but including millions of displaced refugees, millions who are homeless, billions of dollars pissed away to the tune of $100,00 per minute, $5 billion per month, and $400 billion and growing, no consistent electricity or water, a cholera pandemic, etc.
I doubt those numbers for the entire 4 plus years of the “Iraq War” would have African Americans and Hispanics lower than whites, but I agree with you poor is the operative word Steve. And until the rich=influential (because they buy Congress and Senate members like some people buy whores) have their family members blown up and the pieces put in Dover coffins nothing whatsoever is going to change. Nothing. No Democrat is doing a thing to stop the fiasco in Iraq. Not a scintilla of one thing.
What makes you think the children of the “elites” would wind up serving? Did our President and VP serve in the war of their time, draft notwithstanding?
The President ran from any combat and even ran from the Alabama national guard when told to report for a physical for a plane that would actuatlly be deployed in Nam.
Cheney received five deferments. Several sitting US Senators received deferments for flimsy reasons.
My Draft law would eliminate deferments unless the draftee were completely medically or mentally incapacitated.
And let me say it again, the Democratic Congress, both the House and Senate has not stood up to anything the Bush administration has crammed down the American peoples’ throats.
They have essentially said they control DOJ and they decide which laws can be enforced and when and how.
you have the evidence on the physical torture bit in the last 20 years? Note, I did not deny torture, only the method used.
Pete, I do not advocate the militarism of our youth! I’ve served proudly for twenty years with Uncle Sam! I don’t want my kids to be forced into boot camp! I’d would like to see them serve the public good, tho!
Film transcript, The Name of the Rose.
Let me be clear. I agree with you. I don’t advocate it either, but I don’t see any way ever to end this fiasco and continued killing for Iraqis and US personnel and the hemorrhaging of billions of dollars a month other than to institute a draft. That’s the only thing I know that will stop the fiasco in Iraq. Congress won’t. Hillary won’t. And if Obama can pull off an upset in Iowa and the momentum to win the next few early primaries I doubt he will either.
Looks like all the rodents are screaming “Not ME! Plausible DENIABILITY!”
Dana Porno said Bush told her “Huh? Videos? Interrogations? Erased?”
Apparently his love-doll at the time,White House Counsel Harry et Miers, knew ALL ABOUT the Tapes, but then advised the CIA not to destroy them.
Funny she didn’t bother to tell Bush…maybe she just told President Cheney.
The DOJ lawyers assert that they told the CIA “Don’t destroy them”.
Tenet would have been the one who was responsible from concealing these tapes from the 9/11 Commission…maybe we now can see why Bush awarded him the “Medal of Freedom”.
Then there’s his replacement Porter Goss…who also knew about the recordings but asserts “it wasn’t me that done did it”.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12…..el.html?hp
Seems to me that the destruction of the tapes against the advice of just about everyone that learned about them, in fact, would lead to the exposure of the INTERROGATORS. Because now they will be called in and quizzed about precisely what they did. And the person who transcribed the tapes will be called in to divulge what they saw. And this guy who is being set up for the fall, the Deputy Director of Operations (Rodriguez?).
Cheney, Bush, Miers.
They all need to be hauled in and any records relating to this stuff turned over to a Special Prosecutor.