From start to finish, Romney’s speech this morning entitled "Faith in America" was a political — not a religious — speech. Romney wanted to say "I believe in the separation of church and state," yet he tried to reach out to evaneglicals who are moving toward Mike Huckabee and bring them back by saying in essence "Americans are people of faith, their leader must be a person of faith, and I’m the best faithful leader out there."
It’s kind of hard to reconcile those two, but Mitt gave it a good try.
The best way to do it, of course, is to go after the straw people. For instance, early on Romney said, "But in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God."
No, Mitt, that’s not quite it.
What "some" people want removed from the public domain is the government taking official notice of and granting preference to (a) religious beliefs over non-religious beliefs, and (b) favoring certain religious believers over others with different beliefs (religous or otherwise). The Constitution says not one word about God, and refers to religion only twice — and both times in the negative, to constrain the government’s interaction with religion. People are free to impose a religious test (or any other kind of test, for that matter) on the candidates for office as they consider for whom they will vote; the government cannot put such a test as a requirement for holding office. People are free to be religious or not; the government must be blind to religion.
There were many things in the speech that indicated to me a great blindness on Romney’s part as to who believers are, what they think, and how they live. "I am always moved," said Romney, "by the many houses of worship with their steeples, all pointing to heaven, reminding us of the source of life’s blessings." Mitt, try checking out a storefront church sometime. Not a whole lot of steeples on those storefronts.
But the bigger problem I saw in Romney’s speech jumped out when he said this:
It is important to recognize that while differences in theology exist between the churches in America, we share a common creed of moral convictions. And where the affairs of our nation are concerned, it’s usually a sound rule to focus on the latter – on the great moral principles that urge us all on a common course. Whether it was the cause of abolition, or civil rights, or the right to life itself, no movement of conscience can succeed in America that cannot speak to the convictions of religious people.
For all Romney says about history in this speech, this paragraph is proof that his knowledge is shallow indeed. Abolition of slavery, for instance, divided families, congregations, and entire denominations. The Presbyterians split in 1861, and didn’t reunite until 1983, for crying out loud.
It’s also proof of a subtle religious bigotry. Despite his claim of a "common course" based on "great moral principles," there continues to be great division among religious people over all kinds of issues. Committed Roman Catholics, for instance, interpret "right to life" to mean opposition to the death penalty; evangelical fundamentalists see the death penalty as a completely separate issue. Some religious groups embrace GLBTs, while others do not. Yet Romney, trying to reach the evangelicals who are moving toward Huckabee, blithely says in essence, "all religious folks have the same moral beliefs." Sorry, Governor, but your moral beliefs are much different than mine, and also much different from a lot of evangelicals.
"We face no greater danger today than theocratic tyranny," says Romney — but he makes it clear he is talking only about "radical Islam." Romney’s language about America’s churches having a common moral creed and his assumption that every American is religious points to a different kind of tyranny from the TheoCon right. Says Romney, "And you can be certain of this: Any believer in religious freedom, any person who has knelt in prayer to the Almighty, has a friend and ally in me."
Where, pray tell, does that leave those who have not knelt in prayer to the Almighty?
The bottom line for Romney is that he has to reach out to the right wing religious voters. He mouths the words about separation of church and state to mollify moderates, but his strongest language is aimed directly at the evangelicals who are leaning toward Huckabee and others on the right, telling them that he’s a good, religious guy — and Americans need a good religious leader in the White House.
Lots of the pre-speech hype and post-speech spin has compared this speech with John F. Kennedy’s address to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. In comparing the actual speeches, though, the endings make clear that Romney and Kennedy are two very different kinds of politicians, trying to reach two very different kinds of people.
Kennedy said this to close his speech:
But if, on the other hand, I should win this election, then I shall devote every effort of mind and spirit to fulfilling the oath of the Presidency — practically identical, I might add, with the oath I have taken for 14 years in the Congress. For without reservation, I can, "solemnly swear that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution — so help me God.
Compare that with Romney’s conclusion:
Recall the early days of the First Continental Congress in Philadelphia, during the fall of 1774. With Boston occupied by British troops, there were rumors of imminent hostilities and fears of an impending war. In this time of peril, someone suggested that they pray. But there were objections. ‘They were too divided in religious sentiments’, what with Episcopalians and Quakers, Anabaptists and Congregationalists, Presbyterians and Catholics.
Then Sam Adams rose, and said he would hear a prayer from anyone of piety and good character, as long as they were a patriot.
And so together they prayed, and together they fought, and together, by the grace of God … they founded this great nation.
In that spirit, let us give thanks to the divine ‘author of liberty.’ And together, let us pray that this land may always be blessed, ‘with freedom’s holy light.’
God bless the United States of America.
Kennedy’s last word is from the constitution, and Romney tells a wink-wink, nudge-nudge story about prayer. Kennedy wants to speak to all Americans; Romney wants to reach the evangelical right.
To paraphrase Lloyd Bentson, Mitt’s no Jack Kennedy.




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Winky! Winky!
He was spreading the butter far and wide!
I still like Romney/Huckabee in ‘08.
Why?
I’m being extremely snarky. Plus I think that would be an easy target for my political party to beat. ;0)
Can someone correct me here if necessary? My view is that the New Testement is about the Golden Rule.
I knew you were, just wanted you to have to say more!
Let’s just say that the two are in harmony.
Is anyone other than myself uncomfortable with the fact that Mr. Romney has “loaned” his campaign the better part of $20,000,000?
That’s George’s rule too; he who has the gold rules!
He is putting his money where is mouth is. It is his to waste.
I don’t want the Donny and Marie of politics in the White House. I could barely stand them on TV. Something about the squeaky-clean looks of self-congratulating religious folks that sets off my bullshit detector.
I’ve found that most “holy” people don’t talk about religion much.
No doubt the righteous wingers of punditry are having orgasims of Romney’s hair now. Is that a Halo we see?! He must be God’s annointed!
EPU’d but still pertinent, CNN has an interview with Ted Sorensen on the differences between Kennedy’s speech and Willard’s.
Since we are on the topic (religion) Lahoma wants me to send this along to each of you regardless of whether you call yourself a person of God or not. It cuts to humanity, we think. We never tire of this tune. ;0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v…..&NR=1
I wonder if the concluding Sam Adams quotation is Romney’s dog-whistle to Ron Paul supporters, who plan another big online fundraiser on December 16th, the anniversary of the Boston Tea Party, which Sam helped organize in 1773.
And did any of those folks praying with Sam — Episcopalians and Quakers, Anabaptists and Congregationalists, Presbyterians and Catholics — believe that Jesus would return in Missouri?
Excellent post, Peter. Thank you.
Glad Sorensen agrees with my assessment above:
Willard just wants to assure James Dobson that he’ll be a religious nut, just not a Mormon religious nut.
I doubt it. Assuming for the sake of argument the truth of the story, Joseph Smith hadn’t yet found the golden plates that told him about that — that didn’t happen until the 1800s.
Besides, I wonder if Sam’s statment could have been more in the line of exasperation. “Jeez, I don’t give a crap who says it, if it’s gotta be said, someone get on with it so we can deal with what we have to deal with!”
In upstate NY IIRC.
Let the Mystery Be
Everybody’s wonderin’ what and where they all came from.
Everybody’s worryin’ ’bout where they’re gonna go when the whole thing’s done.
But no one knows for certain and so it’s all the same to me.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
Some say once you’re gone you’re gone forever, and some say you’re gonna come back.
Some say you rest in the arms of the Saviour if in sinful ways you lack.
Some say that they’re comin’ back in a garden, bunch of carrots and little sweet peas.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
Everybody’s wonderin’ what and where they all came from.
Everybody’s worryin’ ’bout where they’re gonna go when the whole thing’s done.
But no one knows for certain and so it’s all the same to me.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
Some say they’re goin’ to a place called Glory and I ain’t saying it ain’t a fact.
But I’ve heard that I’m on the road to purgatory and I don’t like the sound of that.
Well, I believe in love and I live my life accordingly.
But I choose to let the mystery be.
Everybody’s wonderin’ what and where they all came from.
Everybody’s worryin’ ’bout where they’re gonna go when the whole thing’s done.
But no one knows for certain and so it’s all the same to me.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
I think I’ll just let the mystery be.
You may have meant that as snark, but I think you might not be very far off.
Dobson has been less than thrilled with this whole stable of GOP candidates, but has publicly spouted off only against Rudy. If Mitt could persuade Dobson that he’s close enough to Dobson’s world, a kind word from Dobson could go a long way to help Romney win over the fundy faithful.
that cherokee rendition of amazing grace is so beautiful. i’ll probably never get tired of it either. thanks for sending it once again. my best to you and lahoma.
Iris DeMent, sorry.
What greenwarrior said @ 25!
She is very good! Saw her in concert once.
Hill Commorah in Palmyra, NY, a town SE of Rochester & near where my brother’s family lives in Fairport.
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Book_of_Mormon#Origins
Nice job Peter.
It is all about speaking in tongues, er, code meant for one audience and one audience only.
A pox on his house.
That was beautiful, thank you.
Neither here nor there probably but my Great Grandmother on my Mothers side was full blooded Cree.
OT – how can we make plans to be online for the book salons if the times for them are not made public? neither place on the fdl website that i can tell has the times for either the saturday or sunday book salons. can we get the times added in along with the dates, book and author?
No steeples on temples or mosques, either.
Or on The Radical Faerie House in SF.
Well, well, what do we have here? Courtesy of the International Herald Tribune:
Sounds like Dobson is opening the door to further conversations with Romney. It’s a lot more of a welcome than Rudy’s ever going to get.
oooh, i love the name, tsf. what is the radical faerie house?
Teddy, I think that’s what he had in mind—he only really cares about churches with steeples on them. The rest of us are rather unlikely to vote for him under any circumstance.
Why is it that the whole crop of rethugs are so abhorrent?
I think the most common time for a Book Salon is 5PM Eastern. Since that is the norm, it may be that only exceptions to that will be published.
Or I may be an idiot and it’s just another small oversight with all the changes that have been made.
There you go, being clannish again. Assuming that everyone who visits FDL already knows the time for book salons.
Fitzmas…
Yee-haw! Pass the popcorn… 8-)
http://www.projo.com/news/cont…..7da2e.html
From Mitt’s speech today.
“I will take care to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not separate us from the God who gave us liberty,”
Maybe I read the history of the Revolution wrong. Seems to me it was some very determined folks who pulled together to defy the Divine Right of Kings who got the job done.
faeries
*hangs head, shuffles feet* I didn’t mean anything by it, honest
now that the ghoul is on his way down the sewer where he belongs, seems romney is going to receive the dubious distinction of being my choice for bottom of the barrel repug prez wannabe. Ghod he makes me sick.
When Romney asks for tolerance, he’s only talking about the religious right tolerating him. He has flipped on every moderate position he had as governor of Massachusetts and has become less tolerant by the day in his own views.
On other issues, re the shootings in Omaha, at least one good thing came out of it is the questioning we are seeing in the media of why Americans should own assault rifles. Oh wait.
Also has anyone else seen the Bush proposal to bail out homeowners with subprime mortgages? Talk about smoke and mirrors. At best it would affect about 10% of those with such mortgages and probably far fewer, is voluntary, and lasts only 5 years. In other words, this is a mechanism to support housing prices so that investors won’t lose out on their investments. Homeowners? Not so much.
Oh please, oh please, oh please let it be true.
Totally off the wall OT..Herbert Hoover’s vice President was 1/2 native American..the only non-Euro-American to hold that office.
It’s called Kick This Can Down The Road As Well.
Many investment entities that bought all that shaky paper will be suing to have their contracts enforced, though.
Asking the religious right to be tolerant requires a tremendous leap of faith.
Mitt sez:
Except for the convictions of LDS religious people pre-1977, which were rather at odds with the civil rights movement to ensure equality of all races in America.
Made all the harder if you are wearing magic underwear.
Well said, Peterr. The interesting irony is if Mitt needed to reach out to the evangelicals, the reason was because they dislike details of his faith they find cultist/sacreligious — but he chose (rightly I think) not to discuss those details, using freedom of religion and the no religious test clauses. The evangelicals may not be satisfied by being told they don’t have a right to ask about those features, no matter what the Constitution says about no religious tests, etc.
after i asked, i went and googled and got to the same place (and some other places). as hard a time as our mormon in waiting is having with muslims and other non-christians and non-whites, i should think radical faerie worship would be very hard indeed on his sensibilities. i’d love to see someone ask him about it.
Observation:
This is a great and wonderful community.
But question (from a complete outsider): Do you not reinforce each other’s ideas? Just a question. I seek truth.
:0)
OKkiddo
Not as long as I’m here.
Heh, the veritable ‘Fly in the Ointment’… ;-)
Holy crap! Have you seen this clip of Huckabee attributing his recent poll success to divine intervention?
This deity crap is just sickening. The only announced atheist among recent major politicians I’m aware of was Jesse Ventura, although I’ll be gratified to learn of more. What does it say of our times that candidates for high office shrink in terror from such declarations?
Atheism may not fully guarantee rationality, since an atheist may still succumb to secular superstitions such as neoconservativism, nationalistic exceptionalism, Marxism/Leninism, or overextended faith in the magic of the marketplace. But when a person’s rationality organ has been softened to the point of allowing literal belief in a sentient invisible ghost, there’s no telling what other, more consequential, delusions that hobbled organ may fail to filter out — eg, belief in mythical WMDs.
This species depresses me no end at times like these. Bartender, a rum and Paxil, stat!
My dream.. Romney and Huckabee split the evangelical vote in the primaries, handing the nomination to Rudy or Ron Paul. Rudy would be beatable in the general, as he’s dirty, and I’m sure half the stuff on him is yet to come out. Paul, on the off chance he beats the Dem, could do no harm trying to push his libertarian agenda, and is in the right place on Iraq.
You are very welcome. kiddo
;0) kiddo
Think of the judges. He is anti-choice. He’s a certifiable nut.
Pete Stark, D Cal.
One of the things I don’t like about Mitt is that he’s a dreadful person.
Scarecrow, do you think we can ever put this toothpaste back in the tube?
The fundies define religious tolerance as allowing them to cram their religion down our throats – their view of morality, made the law of the land. If we don’t allow them to do that, we are intolerant.
Now that they believe they should be the kingmakers, how are we ever going to convince them that religion should again be a private thing, between you and your god, and that this country is better off with that arrangement?
MPR can’t seem to mention Romney’s speech without mentioning the Kennedy speech but they don’t really bother to do a comparison, so they never come anywhere near the point that Kennedy was appealing to the folks who are afraid to mix politics with religion, while Mitt was appealing to the folks who are afraid of secularism. In MPR’s world, the only interesting point is that two presidential candidates made specific speeches because of their religions, and as thus they hold equal weight and meaning.
All Things Considered really sucks that way. Every time.
Can you be specific on the echo-chamber question?
Ah but what is truth as the philosopher’s have asked? One person’s truth may well be considered so much gibberish. As an example, I’m sure Willard felt he was speaking truth today.
Unfortunately, the facts sometimes do not lend themselves to neat little pigeon holes. And sometimes the facts as presented and known are not what the questioner wants to hear so the questioner might stick fingers in their ears and sing “La, la, la, la I can’t HEAR you”
That last seems to happen a lot with the current admin and many of the Malkkkinites and Ditto heads.
If he or she is looking down on us, I wonder of God is not just a little sad at what we’ve become.
As far as having your cake and eating it too, I don’t think that even Bill Clinton could have pulled this speech off. And Romney is no Bill Clinton.
But when you think about it, Romney wasn’t really trying to make sense. He was just trying to make the Us-versus-Them Republican primary voters think that he’s an Us, not a Them.
Did it work? I tend to doubt it. He could have gone into a trance and started channeling George Washington, and I STILL don’t think he could’ve convinced Republican primary voters to select a non-WASP man as their nominee. As Schadenfreude goes, watching Elizabeth Dole finally realize this in late 1999 was one of the best moments of that year. I think Mormons are about to find out just how tolerant the Republican party really is.
Do you think it would help to reframe the debate by referring to them as anti-privacy instead of anti-choice?
Danke.
Can you be specific on the echo-chamber question?
Although you pose it as a question, you are, in fact, asserting the proposition. Asserting the proposition, you should explain what you mean? Many here are believers. A lot of us aren’t. Most don’t like Hillary. Others like Obama, Edwards, Dodd, and Kucinich, and some still would like to see Gore. If you have ever seen a discussion here on Israel, you would notice a very sharp break among us although all of us support a durable peace.
OTOH if you are saying that there is broad agreement on progressive issues, then yes, there is a lot reinforcement. There is also a lot of collective education on the issues. There is also a lot disgust with Republicans although I can’t begin to say why.
Actually, I do. I have always felt that the debate was not framed properly. It should always have been about a woman’s privacy and the right to decide what she does with her own body.
Can you believe this character Bush? If this man really believes in a judgement day, then I’m thinking he ought to be worried.
AP – President Bush’s personal letter to North Korean leader Kim Jong Il, raising the possibility of normalized relations if he fully discloses his nuclear programs by year’s end, is a turnabout for a president who has labeled the communist regime part of an “axis of evil.”
My thoughts exactly. And privacy is something that a lot of Rs would like to preserve, so it would have some bipartisan appeal.
He is no JFK either.
Aww, Hugh, Do tell… 8-)
Peter,
Great post.
When all is said and done, IMHO, Romney is a fake, strike that, a phony. The man has been preening himself to be President forever and ever. How the people in very blue Mass fell for his charms is beyond me, but they did. Good hair and a broad chest must be attractive to voters.
He essentially assumed the Gov office, with one objective in mind, it was a necessary step to the oval office. The man will say/do anything to achieve this objective. He would sell his very soul to be President.
There is no there, there. His so called JFK-like speach was very calculated, no substance. This man scares me almost as much as Guiliani, and Huckabee. Okay, admit that all the Repubs scare me.
All I have to say is that the Republicans are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Guiliani has fizzled. They will never let Huck get the nomination because in their sanity (I hope) they know he is not capable of leading. The rest of the field is senile, or sleeping on the job.
Laughing, it must be tough being a Repub these days.
The only echo I hear is from yelling down the big toobz at each other.
Oh gawd. All I want in the end is for George W. Bush and the rest of them to get what’s coming to them. Nothing more. And nothing less.
It’s a good thing you maintain wonderful lists.
Hi eCAHNomics!
I took the gist of ART45’s comment to be that this is a great site, but how can we be certain that we’re not just mutually reinforcing shared opinions?
I was asking for more specificity on that – like why he would think that?
You owe me a Coke, ES! ;-)
I was just trying out an e-echo to see if it would catch on. Apparently no one got it. Perhaps I should have added a *g*
Dunno about the toothpaste, but this discussion about “tolerance” is something our country has been working on for a long time. When we’re under stress — eg. periods of great in-migration, we’re tested. In lots of ways, the Constitution is about how to govern ourselves even though we’re different, so tolerance is almost like a founding principle.
Was George’s note to Kim Jong Il written in Crayon?
-G
CT, Indeed I do.
George W. Bush and the Republicans have brought us to the the brink of nuclear war. Some argue they are trying to force Armageddon.
Maybe you should make a list?
Is Romney or any Republican going to pull us back from “the brink”?
Romney’s Speech: Wink-Wink, Nudge-Nudge
Dink-Dink, Wedge-Wedge
It was of interest to me how Mitt wrapped himself in the flag- especially thanking Daddy Bush for his military service. The years I was in Salt Lake City it was also interesting to me that Mormons do not serve in the military! and He wants to be in command of the military!!! No news agency has brought this fact to light- wonder why?
I think it would be difficult to assess Mitt, Rudy, Fred & Huckabee & decide which is the phoniest.
Romney’s just another GOP nut-case.
Can you imagine the arrogance of trying to upstage god? I’m expecting the plagues at any moment – boils, toads, etc. I remember a bumper sticker during the 60s that read “God is watching and boy is she pissed.” Fits now.
Well, for one, I’m not a Lemming… and, I’m positive, we can all agree to disagree, unlike the Repukes as a whole…!
There is an excellent article at the NYT about the CIA destroying tapes of harsh interrogation
torturesessions by Mark Mazzetti.http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12…..ref=slogin
Destruction of evidence and obstruction of justice anyone?
Yeah, right.
He said the worries about the impact a leak of the tapes might have in the Muslim world were real.
Nonetheless? NONETHELESS? How about Abu Ghraib on steroids?
There are times when ‘nuts with money’ find their way to the presidency.
I didn’t know that. It’s BIG. Need to get it into MSM.
Hey, you got a laugh out of me. I thought it was really clever.
Thanks Hugh.
Hugh – Re NYT article Emptywheel is on top of it.
Washington post version up now:
CIA Destroyed Tapes of Harsh Interrogations
Coming late to this party. However, the one sentence in the speech, from the text as published by AP, that creeps me out the worst is this:
Exfreakingscuse me? WTF??? Is there anyone out there who can parse this into something, ANYTHING, that smacks vaguely of the Constitution? Just asking, and, as I said, VERY late to the party…
Wasn’t Nixon a Quaker?
Vizualize. It’s 2009 and Romney is prez.
Swopa has a new thread upstairs!
yeah, but the old (g)oat was shot from guns.
It makes more sense if it is rephrased:
Always willing to help explain things. *g*
Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom.
Exfreakingscuse me? WTF??? Is there anyone out there who can parse this into something, ANYTHING, that smacks vaguely of the Constitution?
give him some credit – he’s half-right.
My great grand parents were Quakers. I still favor peace.
Quaker puffed rice and Quaker puffed wheat. Shot from guns! Was the sponser of SGT. Preston and King.
Actually they do serve in the military. When I first got to Hawaii in the Air Force in ‘78, the Base Commander was a bird colonel and was a Mormon.
Peterr said:
Dobson has been less than thrilled with this whole stable of GOP candidates, but has publicly spouted off only against Rudy. If Mitt could persuade Dobson that he’s close enough to Dobson’s world, a kind word from Dobson could go a long way to help Romney win over the fundy faithful.
Isn’t that bizarre? Dobson says something so the sheep just do it? I find it fascinating that people like to be told what to THINK.
Oh, I think we all got it… we’re still afraid of the ziggurat police!
Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom.
“In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own. It is easier to acquire wealth and power by this combination than by deserving them, and to effect this, they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purposes.”
– Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio G Spafford, March 17, 1814
Keith’s got a special comment coming up on Bush lying on the Iran intelligence…..
Whoo Hoo!
i liked your echo too eCAHN…
are there pics up yet anywhere of the ny pups pubcrawling?
Romney:
“Fear not, my mouthbreathing republican friends! I can, TOO, baton-twirl 4 foot specimens of Crotalus Horridus Horridus with you!”
I don’t know why Romney isn’t the one doing the “Give War a Chance” lecture next Wednesday night for the Young Repubs at UMass.
Since all five (5) of his young, healthy, sons are serving in Iraq, he’d be the perfect choice… :o) :o) :o)