Nearly forty years ago, a few months before I would be drafted and eventually sent to Viet Nam, CBS’s Walter Cronkite delivered a now famous editorial at the end of his nightly news broadcast. He had concluded that the Vietnam war was headed to a stalemate, and he told the American people it was time to negotiate for peace and come home. Now, forty years later, Mr. Cronkite has again spoken on America’s war: Our Troops Must Leave Iraq.
Here is part of what Cronkite said on February 27, 1968: (h/t to Ellie and to C&L for this video)
To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, yet unsatisfactory, conclusion. On the off chance that military and political analysts are right, in the next few months we must test the enemy’s intentions, in case this is indeed his last big gasp before negotiations. But it is increasingly clear to this reporter that the only rational way out then will be to negotiate, not as victors, but as an honorable people who lived up to their pledge to defend democracy, and did the best they could.
Yesterday, Mr. Cronkite and David Krieger, President of the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, published a joint statement at CommonDreams.org, calling for the removal of US troops and bases, turning over all responsibilities to the Iraqi people, and agreeing to help rebuild a ravaged Iraq. An excerpt from their statement:
The invasion of Iraq was illegal from the start. Not only was Congress lied to in order to secure its support for the invasion of Iraq, but the war lacked the support of the United Nations Security Council and thus was an aggressive war initiated on the false pretenses of weapons of mass destruction. There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Nor has any assertion of a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda proven to be true. In the end, democracy has not come to Iraq. Its government is still being forced to bend to the will of the US administration.
What the war has accomplished is the undermining of US credibility throughout the world, the weakening of our military forces, and the erosion of our Bill of Rights. Nobel Laureate economist Joseph Stiglitz calculates that the war is costing American tax payers more than $1 trillion. This amount could double if we continue the war. Each minute we are spending $500,000 in Iraq. Our losses are incalculable. It is time to remove our military forces from Iraq.
We must ask ourselves whether continuing to pursue this war is benefiting the American people or weakening us. We must ask whether continuing the war is benefiting the Iraqi people or inflicting greater suffering upon them. We believe the answer to these inquiries is that both the American and Iraqi people would benefit by ending the US military presence in Iraq.
Moving forward is not complicated, but it will require courage. Step one is to proceed with the rapid withdrawal of US troops from Iraq and hand over the responsibility for the security of Iraq to Iraqi forces. Step two is to remove our military bases from Iraq and to turn Iraqi oil over to Iraqis. Step three is to provide resources to the Iraqis to rebuild the infrastructure that has been destroyed in the war.
Congress must act. Although Congress never declared war, as required by the Constitution, they did give the president the authority to invade Iraq. Congress must now withdraw that authority and cease its funding of the war.
It is not likely, however, that Congress will act unless the American people make their voices heard with unmistakable clarity. That is the way the Vietnam War was brought to an end. It is the way that the Iraq War will also be brought to an end. The only question is whether it will be now, or whether the war will drag on, with all the suffering that implies, to an even more tragic, costly and degrading defeat. We will be a better, stronger and more decent country to bring the troops home now.
Clear, honest, wise, from two patriotic Americans. Amen.
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elliot was kind enough to link here before he posted a response, thus allowing someone else to get the zedunofitzeroo
and that someone was MEEEEEE….weeeeeEEEEEeeeee!!!
thanx elliot
g’morning scarecrow!
Caw caw! Good morning to you, Scarecrow.
Anyone seen the movie, Instinct? It has a scene that promotes this model. Everybody gets to have a zed once in a while. I like it.
Good morning, Scarecrow. Good post. Citizen Cronkite speaks truth to power once again.
What are they talking about? The polls show about as clear a public voice as anyone could ever hope for. Do they expect 200 million (out of 300 million) Americans to demonstarte in the street?
Nope. The voice of the public IS clear. [edited by mod].
[Mod Note; Comment edited by moderator. No threats of violence please, openly stated or implied, even in jest — they are inappropriate here. Thank you.]
“And that’s the way it is.”
Good Morning!
Good for Walter Cronkite. I’ll take any heroes I can get these days, but it would be nice if we had some from the younger generations.
And.
Reposted from the end of the comments on Attaturk’s post…
A little OT, but did anyone else hear John Yoo (Mr. Torture) on NPR last night defending indefinite detention without habeas corpus? What was possible even more offensive was that the introduction made no mention of his incredibly controversial history, merely describing him as a law professor and former Bush official. And. And he had the temerity to use the terms “prisoners of war” and “POW” repeatedly to describe the detainees. This after BushCo went through tortuous legal contortions to avoid having these prisoners classed as such so that the Geneva Conventions would not apply.
Why is NPR giving this creature a soapbox? Of course it’s possible that he’s the only person they could find to give a pro-administration opinion?
holy cow scarecrow, pardon the expression but I mean it in the most deferential terms possible but what a friggin old warhorse cronkite is
RIGHT FROM THE FIRST PARAGRAPH, cronkites indictment is STUNNING;
OH BABY!!!
man, one of the HEROS of our generation and now a hero of our children’s generation
I have those shivers traveling through my skin right now
I’ve been waiting for this. Thank you, Walter Cronkite! And on my birthday no less!
caw-caw-cawfee is ready – hold out your cups…
geez, I think I wrecked my jaw, grittin’ my teeth over the shrub’s press conference yesterday…
Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday to you.
Happy birthday to WarOnWarOff.
Happy birthday to you.
Ooooh, thanks, eCAHN!!!
yes, caw CAW Scarecrow!
If Uncle Walter says it’s over, it’s over. Maybe NOW we can bring the troops home
I wish you happy birthday as well however my good wishes pale by comparison to cronkite’s gift
many more
Happy Birthday, WarOnWarOff
Good morning everyone.
I haven’t seen any coverage of Cronkite’s statement in MSM. Did I miss something?
Thanks, perris! Reading this is giving me tears in my eyes!
Danke, Scarecrow! Looks like the good ol’ MSM is set on IGNORE.
Happy Birthday, WOWO…
Cronkite has immense credibility. I hope his statement is publicized widely.
And happy birthday WarOnWarOff, let’s hope it’s the latter….
if the press ignores this then we are left as the fourth estate in this vital story
it needs to go out through the blogosphere, everyone should run with this 24/7 until cronkite is inundated with media appearance requests
hear on Air America this AM the Iraq Veterans Against War will be doing a “Winter Soldier” presentation soon..Sorry didn’t get all the details…..in any event waiting for the reichwing wurlitzer headed by El Rushbo calling these guys “phoney soldiers”….can tell you this if El Rushbo would have been in my platoon he would not have come back….
WOWO
Don’t know if you drink, and it’s a little early, but you might want to save this for later.
http://www.featurepics.com/onl…..42062.aspx
My father served three tours in ‘Nam (he was an officer), and came back home *apparently* normal, but as the years passed he pulled some crazy PTSD-induced shit. Now he’s in his late 70’s, mellowed alot, and is doing much better. But we didn’t speak the first year of the Iraq war (he told me Saddam was a “bad man”), but somehow miraculously he’s come to see my side of things. He hates chimp and this damned war now.
Happy Birthday WarOnWarOff!!
Iraq War Veterans to Launch “Winter Soldier” Investigation
[mod note; Discuss this story and other current events over at FDL’s news section.]
can cronkite pull it off again?
this piece of their is just STUNNING, it’s a BRUTAL indictment of this president, his record, his lies, and what he’s done to this country
it is BRUTAL
if this goes vital, how many people in our history would have can claim the hero credentials of this man?
how many?
the list is short
OT
Love the Maine accent of the narrator in this Tom Allen ad.
http://www.americablog.com/200…..llins.html
I was asked by a coworker yesterday why I was unpatriotic. His question was in respose to my expressed lack of support for the Iraq war. My reply was, “I am an honorably discharged veteran of uniformed service to the United States Military and I will thank you to show a modicum of respect for those of us who have actually stood up to Preserve, Protect and Defend that which you seem so willing to allow to be compromised.” I am old enough to remeber when Walter spoke truth to power so plainly that we were left with no option but to hit the streets in protest. And we did. Thank you Walter. Thank you Scarecrow.
Happy Birthday WarOnWarOff!!
I just stopped by raw story to see what they’re doing with this and they don’t have it yet…if someone has an in to the editors please get it to them
get this to kos, think progress, raw story
these are the leads at raw story and this first one has me pissed…I haven’t read it yet
*Pops cork* Thanks again, eCAHN, and everybody else…it’s gonna be a groovy day!
Yes, we did. And had a little conversation in our house about how the guy should be tried and incarcerated!
Now for the Post: Bravo!!!
How wonderful to read the words:
And to see
And the recognition:
We can only hope that some from the older generation will be moved by the words of Cronkite, someone they trust from long ago.
Thanks for drawing attention to this.
Try emailing it to them rawstory@gmail.com
I meant the part about us ready to drop the timetable for funding
our elected officials need to get unelected
better
how about incarcerated and NOT tried?
Don’t forget to Digg this article. Only 2 Diggs at the moment.
can we keep the patriotism out the the equation. Patriotism is the nasty underbelly of hegemony.
Very Good! Give him a dose of his own medicine, eh?
isn’t hegemony an investment fund?
I was in Korea still on high alert after the Pueblo and Blue House Raids. We had no idea what Uncle Walt was saying but we had then sense that things were screwed up. Fast forward to August and I was in an outfit atFt Lewis getting ready to go to the Nam and watching the convention on the tv in the day room. The subsequent year made me understand what we were up against with Tricky Dick and his band of bandits. . .and the beat goes on.
Just looked for any mention of this in the MSM: nada. You know the drill, folks:
How to Spotlight this article.
Re John Yoo on NPR, I didn’t hear this phrase, but my husband said he described the Supreme Court as “imperial.” Did anyone hear that description? The man should not be allowed to teach! Or practice law.
Looks like you got a h/t Bilbo!
Seriously, if you look at how this word “patriotism” is always used to undermine those who dissent. And the use of the word “homeland” since 911. These words are changing the mindset of the people in a manufacturing of consent through intimidation and “brain washing”.
The left has to watch their use of language and not play into the right wing framing.
“The American Army really is a people’s Army in the sense that it belongs to the American people who take a jealous and proprietary interest in its involvement. When the Army is committed the American people are committed, when the American people lose their commitment it is futile to try to keep the Army committed. In the final analysis, the American Army is not so much an arm of the Executive Branch as it is an arm of the American people. The Army, therefore, cannot be committed lightly.” (emphasis mine)
-Gen. Fred Weyand, Chief of Staff, U.S. Army, July 1976 as quoted in On Strategy, Harry G. Summers, Jr.
Thanks Scarecrow for sharing the words of Cronkite & Krieger. Hope they will make the rounds & share their opinion with a wide audience.
Happy Birthday WarOnWarOff, hope you have a great day!
What happened to the blogroll?
It’s a word. Unfortunately, the right has given it a bad connotation. In most post WWII history and government classes, “patriotism” was still considered admirable, whereas “nationalism” was considered the evil twin.
I hope they really have their shit together. One phony like Al Hubbard in the VVAW can really sink that ship in hurry. I salute them for what they are doing but it’s fraught with peril.
I urge Pups to take the time to see the entire series:
Century of the Self
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/d…..self.shtml
It’s not just a word unfortunately. Yes the right has twisted it and now “own” it. But they meanings and nuance are there. We must be very careful in the words we use.
Didn’t you learn from Lakoff or Lunt? They surely know the game.
As eCAHNomics pointed out, people are sick of the war, every poll shows it. That isn’t what stops the war. It didn’t stop the Viet Nam war either. People were in the streets, getting tear gassed; some were killed at Jackson State and Kent State. The imperial presidency kept that war going too. I doubt that anything we or any group did would persuade the people who run this miserable invasion to bring it to an end. Our only chance was the 2004 election, and the great beerdrinker society put the incompetent back in office.
I understand, but am not willing to surrender words, language, to them. Accordingly, I’m still liberal and recognize that there are some Christians who believe primarily in the “golden rule.” Basically, I’d like to take back the language from Lundt, et. al..
That and a rigged election in Ohio.
This sort of implies that the Vietnam War did not end?
Consider the Iraq war the neocons’ attempt to refight it, so in that sense it hasn’t ended.
Didn’t Kissinger/Nixon concede and retreat years ago?
rove and abu torture are called murderers and war criminals.
this is as far as our demonstrations will go though, they refuse to broadcast demonstrations, it wouldn’t matter if we amassed hundreds of thousands to walk the streets of washington it would barely earn a blurb
and where is the alarm?
there is not nearly the alarm we had when we were growing up
why?
because we were going to be drafted, we were going to die, that’s why
my dad was a veteran and the first time I ever heard him speak against this country was the months before I became eligable for the draft
he told me;
you are not fighting in this war, this is war for profit not war for cause, we are moving to canada if we have to but you will not fight this war
I of course objected, I was just a kid, a patriotic kid…my number never came up, the draft ended about a month or two before I became elegable
oh, this guy
wish he’d never have crawled out from under that rock
quicki wiki research
If you manage to make it through Century of the Self
you will see how the public and government’s relationship to it has changed in the last 100 or so years.
Essentially what has happened is that consumerism has been used as a narcotic to placate the people, and keep them buying and campaigns are now styled on market research and focus groups.
It’s pretty shocking and Bernays who was the father of public relations was used to sell everything from soap to ballet, smoking to females, the war and politicians. It’s all done with WORDS.
Cool. My first zed yesterday and an h/t today. What does h/t stand for? Hearty thanks?
Crooks & Liars has a video of Cronkite’s 1968 comment.
Could have fooled the Vietnamese, we were a blip on their radar.
ding, no one gives a shit!
I don’t think the war ended because of the American people voicing their anger and disgust. If it did end for that reason, it took far too long. Even after Nixon figured out that it was over, both in the hearts of the American people (after Tet, a victory that somehow felt like a loss) he kept it going for years.
You’re such a literalist.
read response 25 and then click the link and read there
They, in power, the corporations needed to control the message and so they simply bought the media, consolidated it and use it to keep people in the dark and buying useless lifestyle image products.
It’s not longer about one’s needs, it’s about one’s desires and creating those desires and then selling them products.
It’s all about selling things… profits.
Yeah, that’s him. Sorry for the mispelling. His name and others could easily be spelled Goebbels, though.
Good morning from L.A. An excellent 1st post of the day, Scarecrow. Hope this story involving someone of Cronkite’s stature proves too big for the MSM to ignore; CBS at the very least should run w/it.
Feb. 1968- one yr. before that in Jan. 1967 I’m 7 yrs. old, sitting on the sofa listening to how my 2nd eldest sib, who had gone to Vietnam, was missing. “Don’t worry, Marie, I have to come back & help you w/your homework. I’ll be back soon.” I always felt that somehow he’d be coming back, until we had the ceremony @ the Wall for him sp many yrs. later.
Thank you, Walter Cronkite for stepping up to the plate on the current war lies as you did February 27, 1968.
It’s old home week for the Boomers, I guess. First the news that Romney’s going to give a big speech to try to squelch potential problems with his religion, and now Cronkite’s back with a slam at those who believe we still can win the war.
Good for Uncle Walter! (Romney, OTOH, is no JFK.)
[Note to bilbo: h/t is “hat tip”]
read post number 25, then click the link it posts which is this
http://firedoglake.com/2007/12…..q/#Respond
Exactly, Sander0.
Just searched the NY Times for “Cronkite” (for giggles), and as if to illustrate your point, they did mention him today, but only as a metaphor in a lame reference to entrees!
“Why is the entree in danger of becoming the California condor of the menu?
One theory is that people like to customize their worlds. Personalized playlists on iPods have replaced albums. TiVo has replaced channel surfing. In this quick-cut, video-on-demand universe, the entree is Walter Cronkite.”
So… …why does Walter Cronkite hate America?
sorry for the double post . . . things were a bit squirrelly, with the spinning circle of doom. I didn’t think the comment went in. (Mods, feel free to delete my 71.)
Peterr — wrt to Romney’s religion, a couple of times he’s said he opposes closing Gitmo and bringing the detainees to the US, because those terrorists don’t deserve the protections of US law. Never mind that the S.Ct has ruled otherwise, but today’s WaPo has a devastating story about a German who was kidnapped while traveling in Pakistan, and now languishes in Gitmo. The Intelligence guys say he was just a guy traveling and has no connection with terrorism, but the military caught him praying so assume he’s guilty — and won’t let him go.
HIs case to be heard by our Supremes today.
Cronkite’s Vietnam message was February 27, 1968. The war dragged on for another seven years, with tens of thousands of additional U.S. casualties and hundreds of thousands of additional Vietnamese casualties. We could have walked away in 1968 and had the same outcome as did walking away six years later. We continued only out of arrogance and pride. There was nothing there to win. Had we “won,” we’d have been no better off. There was nothing at stake but arrogance and pride, just like today.
Happy Birthday!
He did indeed. I think he called it an “imperial powergrab”. If that’s not projection…
Iraq is different. The longer we stay in Iraq, the worse it will be when we leave. That is because of the spiral of hate that we started.
Thanks, Smgumby!
Re: Jon Yoo
Sorry friend, even scum get a trial. That’s why we are the good guys.
If we seriously disengage from the region there will be no means for the hatred to be expressed… Oh right, the symbols of America… corporations, their installations, their workers, their products.
Our corporations and their bad behavior along with the out of control madmen in the armed forces are insuring that the American brand is completely trashed.
Empire doesn’t care. It only wants to take.
It’s a start, to be sure.
That’s hubris of another sort, positing that the U.S. is the only entity that anyone can hate.
The Sunnis hate the Shia and they all hate the Kurds, etc.
Tom Lehrer wrote a song about that years ago, but when I searched the www for it, I couldn’t find it on any collection. If anyone can best my search, I’d appreciate it.
If the US walked away in 1968, Bush would never have had to pretend to serve in the Texas Air National Guard.
We still be buggy. Techies can you hear me?
When will the adults be in charge again? The one’s who remember the Civics classes. Remember? Social Studies they called it back then.
LOL
I was just reading about that case before SCOTUS [Boumediene v. Bush (06-1195) and Al Odah v. United States (06-1196)] over at SCOTUSBlog. It’s going to be heard at 10 AM eastern, and the court will be putting up an audio file of the oral arguments soon after they finish. Yum!
Remind me again: where did Christy say she was going on vacation? You don’t think . . .
Love to hate!
I gotta say I really DIG this essay by Cronkite.
Almost as much as I DIG this post about Cronkite’s essay!
Sorry. I remember how I didn’t care for the idea that the Vietnam Vets Against THE War kept the name after THE War ended. I thought it should have been thee Vietnam Vets Against War.
Agreed.
Additionally, a trial puts everything in the public record in one place.
When he got *really* mad at somebody (before he mellowed out), my father used to talk about pulling his “wounded buffalo” act. Which puts me in mind as to where we are as a nation: a frightened, bleeding animal, lunging at anything in its near-death throes.
Okay, that’s not a very happy birthday thought…
I flipping off John Yoo on NPR lst night while driving home. However, NPR did put on a rebuttal with a Georgetown Law professor. Yoo was the rear end of a burro, the other professor was very appealing in his presentation.
Here you go! (YouTube)
And I could have stayed home!
That would be a step in the right direction.
The horror.
eCAHN…”National Brotherhood Week”
There’s a great Sci Fi from the early 50s, The Space Merchants, by Kornbluth and Pohl. The protagonist is an ad writer, “a wordsmith, star class.” It’s some of the most biting social satire I’ve ever read. And it’s even more current today than it was when it was written.
Wew Peterr!
Kinda timeless, aint it?
Current or relevant?
Here you go eCAHN:
Tom Lehrer’s National Brotherhood Week
I know this will be a controversial statement, but our entry into Vietnam was a lot more understandable at the time than was our invasion of Iraq. From the adoption of Truman Doctrine, our Cold War Policy was to oppose the spread of communism, either directly or through support,at all points. The doctrine was accepted by administations of both parties, from Truman through Johnson. There were almost no questions about our entry into Vietnam, from the Gulf of Tonkin resolution until about late 1967. Only then, did people start to decide that communism was not a monolith, that the domino theory may not be applicable. I’m just saying that, in the beginning, our involvement in Viet Nam appeared a lot more rational than did our invasion of Iraq. The two situations aren’t directly analgous.
I loved Tom Leher and Stan Freberg
http://freberg.westnet.com/
Just finished Space Merchants. Concur and high recommend.
Somebody must have suggested the book here, perhaps on Pull Up A Chair.
Thank you SO much. Doncha just luv it!
Yoo’s defense was very much in line with bushco SOP, half truths and gross assumptions. Hard to believe this guy teaches law. His argument was sophmoric.
I am seeing double double still
And, why did the University of California ever hire him?
And thank you too, egregious.
Oh yeah. Maybe Mitt will use that verse about religion (”The Protestants hate the Catholics, and the Catholics hate the Protestants . . “) in his speech.
Just in case anyone wanted to see the transcript of the excellent NPR Debate that utterly lacked commentary about UFO’s, haircuts, pearls, Bibles, whether they owned guns, etc.
Instead the talked about IRAN, Israel and Arab perception of anti-Muslim bias there (some dancing around by the candidates here, in my opinion…except for Gravel and Kucinich!); China; immigration; trade policy; and related issues (economic and educational).
The debate was pretty much chock-filled with SUBSTANCE, though I would say that a lot of them were trying to make nuanced distinctions where they were broadly in consensus. AND Kucinich, Dodd, Biden and Gravel actually got time to speak!
IMHO this is what I would hope that a Cabinet meeting would be like! Lot’s of great ideas and a sensbility that they were trying to help America’s working people.
And for those of you who listened to the debate on the radio…at the end there is some carry-over discussion that wasn’t broadcast that you may want to peek at.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/p…..;htm?csp=1
Pick up Halberstam’s “The Coldest Winter” for a nice introduction to Vietnam via the Korean War. The fact that both parties accepted it does not negate the stupidity of our intervention.
I keep asking Garry Trudeau when he’s going to have Joanie Caucus leading protests at Boalt for their hiring of Yoo.
Thanks.
I’d heard sound bites, but hadn’t had the chance to go looking for a transcript.
Maybe it was the fact that many were willing to fight in JUST wars, but that the Vietnam War was an illegal War. Some may have become pure pacifists, but others may have simply opposed the Vietnam War.
It may not negate what in hindsight was stupidity, but it makes it more understandable. No hindsight was needed in the case of Iraq.
Just looked for any mention of this in the MSM: nada.
My prediction: Even if this stort hit the MSM, you won’t see it on the CBS Evening News. No way Katie Couric is gonna bring up the ‘ghost of Walter Cronkite’. It would simply make her too incredibly bad by comparison.
You got that right!
I wonder if the reason it was posted on Common Dreams was because none of the major papers would publish it?
Thanks for the reminder on the Democrats NPR debate.
NYT also liveblogged the debate on their Caucus site. There’s a nice excerpt on the Iran question here. Another link to the transcripts.
What a concept! I love it.
I think some of it has to do with precise age. I was in an Air Force ROTC summer training camp, between junior and senior years in college, in August, 1964, when our large troop commitment began. I was majoring in history and, at the time, the central lesson of WWII had to do with Munich and appeasement. By the time I got out and entered graduate schools, in 1969, the same history professors were talking about the stupidity of the best and the brightest.
i’d like to propose there is not such thing as JUST wars – if by JUST you mean to say that there is some widely held common definition of JUST war… and i ‘m not referring to the theoretical construct or individually held beliefs – i’m referring to how the idea is applied in the real world, seems like almost every person has a different idea of what makes a war JUST (if i go by the wars they are willing to support, as they happen)
National Brotherhood Week~ By Tom Lehrer
Lyrics
http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/national.htm
That voice belongs to Harvard educated Robert Skoglund aka The Humble Farmer, a well loved Maine icon. If you want some chuckles, Google him.
Thanks. Most folks don’t get the reference.
Don’t the guys who start the war think it is “just”?
Yea right.
I actually agree with you. I thought I was a pacifist when I came home but found that it was not so. No just wars? Maybe in some other world, I guess folks missed the part about the Rape of Nanking and the Nazi Death Camps.
Thanks. Got his website.
So, the Iraqi resistance is unjust?
here’s what’s brutal about Iraq;
we ALL knew the president was full of crap…how on earth did WE know the president was full of crap and nobody else?
I remember the arguments for and against the war among friends;
“they have weapons of mass destruction”
no, they don’t, the inspectors are going wherever they send them and they are not there
“saddam moved them, do you think he would keep them in the same spot”
it’s not possible to move weapons of mass destruction capable of delivery to America without us knowing it
our satalights can count the hair on a man’s arm, if these weapons were moved we know where they were moved to
“but they found those tubes”
the scientists said they are not tubes for the purpose the administration claims
“but we sold them the weapons, we know they have them”
we eliminated those weapons under this president’s father and then clinton after
“but they found that “drone of mass destruction”
that drone is a balsa wood prop plane just like you give your nephew for his birthday, it’s guided by line of site, in such disrepair it’s held together with duct tape
“what about those vans of mass destruction”
the scientists tell us they did not manufacture chemical weapons
“what about those cartoons colon powell showed us on the TEvee
they were cartoons
and here we were, we were actually HOPING we were wrong, that the president was right, we were HOPING
I think the argument is about whether it’s ever just to START a war, not whether it’s just to defend yourself on your own soil.
i did not say that.
When I was growing up I really thought we were outgrowing war, just as I had begun to outgrow all sorts of silly childhood predilections. Sillllleeeee meeeeeeee.
Actually, I think it would increase Ms. Couric’s stature is she did a story on Cronkite. CBS should welcome the chance to help their image. Of course, they could blow it by having Bolton or Ledeen on for “balance.” So instead, we’ve seen Bolton and Ledeen on without Cronkite.
I remember when everyone was up in arms that the Iraqi’s had the nerve to start pushing back against our occupation
I told everyone;
I don’t know what YOU would do, but if saddam came to THIS country, overthrew our government and tried to force his government and economy down OUR throats I would be hanging anyone involved with the occuptation of America from the highest bridge
Plus, you can’t prove a negative!!!!
“In response to the America-hating Walter Cronkite, here is Mars God of War.”
“Thanks, Katie.”
I was listening to IKE 1/17/61
Why We Fight ~ Complete 1h36/RealPlayer Req. LINK
Quite a few folks I know would actually watch CBS evening news, Couric & all, to hear Cronkite speak on this.
Otherwise, never.
From day 1, I thought the invasion of Iraq was stupid, illegal, and every other negative adjective you can find. A big part of my reasoning was that I had agreed with Bush 41 and his henchmen, that the conquest of Iraq and acquisition of our own Gaza would be totally stupid.
jayt -
As you requested last nite:
“George Bush is afraid of Helen Thomas”
*G*
selise -
Did you see the very last note I left you in previous thread (#93)? Again, many thanks!
LOL. Pass it on.
Why did Berkeley hire John Yoo?
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/faculty/yooj/
My understanding is that he came in with Top Notch credentials…being Editor of the Yale Law Review and a Clerk to Judge Silberman. He doesn’t really have a record of much teaching, apparently spending almost 80% of his career away from the classrooms of Berkeley. He didn’t initially teach much that is controversial…Civil Litigation, International Trade, and International Civil Litigation. Ironically the latter only works if one believes in the sanctity of International Treaties as domestic law.
Almost immediately after being hired he took leave to serve as a clerk to Clarence Thomas, then worked as General Counsel to the Senate Judiciary Committee from 1995-9. That was during the Clinton Impeachment era, so it would be interesting if he was tasked with that duty.
He appears to have spent the next two years at Berkeley before being brought back into the Bush Administration in his role as advisor on “terrorism” law and dismantling the Constitution. Even after he left the Washington he didn’t immediately return to Berkeley, taking on visiting Professor teaching positions at the University of Chicago, and in the Netherlands and Italy. THAT may be where he taught some of the more controversial classes…
IOW he has been able to “buy out” much of his actual teaching duties at Cal so he doesn’t have to defend himself before students. His major role there seems to be as Director of a Specialist Program. He is also tasked with being an Editor of a journal.
Blue Texan upstairs
Blue Texan has the next thread ready.
And that’s the way it is.
Yes, I had a similar conversation with my stepfather (retired Marine officer), and he agreed. Though I think I actually said something to the effect of “I don’t blame them one bit for fighting back once it became clear that we were occupying their country”.
Harvard has a rule about how long a prof can be away & still maintain tenure. I think it’s 2 years. It looks like Berkeley doesn’t have the same, but they should. Then Yoo would be either gone from Berkeley or wouldn’t have been able to do so much harm in the W admin, either one being a better outcome.
thanks, i had not seen it. left you one in reply.
Before I head upstairs just want to thank you, Lou, that is an excellent link.
I like Katie Couric. Cronkite, who happens to be late to this particular party, used to sound like the voice of God. Katie’s softer and her choice of stuff is less confrontational. She’s no worse than any news anchor. She’s the anchor of choice in my house. As for Cronkite having an effect, doubt it, though our president seems to be developing follower problems. There’s a tipping point where enough followers start doubting the leader’s wisdom and start distancing themselves. Release of the Iran intelligence is a case in point. It’d be interesting to know where it came from. No one is saying it was leaked, but I doubt Bush authorized its disclosure.
Please send Cronkites piece to ALL the congress critters. Thank You. The old folks could get the Dems of the butts and start the hearings. Maybe more sources will emerge against the war.
OT: Can’t log on and comment on Blue Texan’s thread above. Able to on all other’s though. Hmmmmmmmmm. Interesting. No time to futz with this logon problems at fdl, off to work. I’m sure Blue Texan will be ever so disppointed. :D
Increasingly responsible people are stepping forward and seeing the truth. This morning’s C-Span’s Washington Journal’s callers where brutal. They pulled no punches. The callers across the spectrum were irrate and outspoken about the new “King” and his corporate cohorts in colonial crime!
http://www.c-span.org/homepage…..iveDays=30
The Space Merchants really does hold up well! Great satire from the so-called Golden Age of Science Fiction (when everyone was 12)
Thank you Walter Cronkite. Thank you Scarecrow and good morning.
Tomorrow I go to San Francisco and again stand with a dedicated group of people who oppose the war in Iraq. They also opposed the war in Afghanistan. Simply, they oppose war. At first people walked by the silent vigil and shouted or made nasty comments to the vigilers. But now signs of support for the end of war in Iraq are in business windows and those walking by ask if they can stand with the protesters before returning to work.
Homeland Security parks in front of the protesters observing, what I haven’t figured out. Often, someone in the vigil will walk up to Homeland Security and ask if they would like to join the vigil or hand them one of our pamphlets so they can read what we are about.
For years now, rain, shine, cold foggy weather these good people stand there. Every Thursday at noon in front of the old Federal Building on Larkin Street, near City Hall. Their numbers have grown. Their message is opposing war and violence. They are a constant. It is an eclectic group.
Yale used to have a walk on law review when I was in law school. Why do people continue to think that institutional academic credentials such as law school are tied to later excerising good judgment or are a credential that would lead one to exercise good judgment later on. Back to the 19th century when academic institutions were not branding exercises and lawyers were good lawyers because they won cases in front of good and bad judges alike. Yoo like Clarence Thomas are guys who sought the branding of institutions but are they for real, not really.
“Thank you Walter Cronkite. Thank you Scarecrow…”
Ditto, This post made me feel better today!!!!
I’m late reading this, so perhaps someone else has posted the answer. But I think you are referring to “National Brotherhood Week” on the album “That Was the Year that Was”
I’ve seen this mod note on other comments & I have a question: is this just a reminder that there is now a news section for our perusal or a gentle hint that we shouldn’t be going off-topic anymore?
Oh – & Walter Cronkite has always been one of my heroes & I am absolutely delighted to see him call for withdrawal.
That’s a great question. We don’t want to discourage off topic comments, but we hope the news headline comments can be used for more in depth conversations so the thread doesn’t get completely derailed.
Does that make sense?
Hi RBG – that makes perfect sense. One of the things I’ve always liked about FDL is that the comment section is so organic & shifts & changes as various comments are made so it’s good to know it isn’t verboten to go OT.
Thanks for answering my question.
I guess I should have said “completely verboten”. I really wish I could get preview to work. sigh.