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Remember our mantra this week, pups? No retroactive immunity. No prospective immunity. No basket warrants.
Have you been practicing? Have you worked out the harmonies? Cause Arlen Specter has just introduced an amendment to the FISA bill. It’s called the "Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Substitution Act of 2007" and what a lot of hooey it is.
According to Specter’s Statement made to introduce the bill
The legislation substitutes the U.S. in place of any electronic communication service company which provided communications in connection with an intelligence activity that was authorized by the President between September 11, 2001, and January 17, 2007, and designed to detect or prevent a terrorist attack against the U.S.
Which gives them all the benefits of retroactive immunity, without the blowback that the word "immunity" will provoke. Kinda like Irv Lew Libby’s commutation gave him all the freedom of a pardon, with none of the transactional immunity that would require his truthful testimony if he were to be subpoenaed to testify before a Congressional Committee. Such symmetry!
One of my favorite lines from Specter’s introductory statement, and it’s a howler is this:
I begin my analysis by acknowledging the good citizenship of the telephone companies for whatever it is that they have done. We still don’t know all of what that is. But I do not believe that it is appropriate to grant what is called "retroactive immunity” because of what has occurred here.
[emphasis mine].
If we don’t know what the telcoms did, how can we know if they have displayed good citizenship by doing the thing that we don’t know what they’ve done? (trying saying THAT sentence 3 times fast. Ha!)
Especially when you consider that:
As Chief Judge Vaughn Walker wrote when dismissing AT&T’s immunity claims, “AT&T cannot seriously contend that a reasonable entity in its position could have believed that the alleged domestic dragnet was legal.” Judge Walker also flatly rejected the government’s secrecy argument: “The compromise between liberty and security remains a difficult one. But dismissing this case at the outset would sacrifice liberty for no apparent enhancement of security.”
Whatever it was that these telcoms did, it was SOOOOO bad that the top tier of DOJ was willing to resign over it, a federal judge thinks that no one can seriously contend that they had a good faith belief that it was legal, SO WHY IS CONGRESS SO HELL BENT ON HELPING THAT ADMINISTRAION COVER UP ITS CRIMINAL ACTS.
Cause you know and I know, the only way anybody is gonna spill the beans about that criminality is to save their own damn skins.
Update: see the Electronic Frontier Foundation’s class action lawsuit on behalf of AT&T customers against AT&T regarding privacy.
graphic from vitualis flickr creative commons
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What the world needs now is campaign finance reform, sweet campaign finance reform. We’ll never get anywhere until we curtail the power of the corporations…
looseheadprop!
Arlen, Arlen, Arlen.
No retroactive immunity. No prospective immunity. No basket warrants.
oh btw, did I mention you should digg this post?
LHP, where’d that last quote come from about Judge Walker’s ruling?
That quote from Specter is a doozy. I keep emphasizing that if the telecoms are allowed to skate, then they have no incentive to ever say “no” to the government when it asks to spy illegally on Americans or are asked to invade Americans’ privacy, even though the telecoms are always ensuring us that our privacy is their primary concern.
There needs to be some very serious governmental house-cleaning in the not too distant future.
hey specter, get this;
if they saw a warrant they already have immunity, if they didn’t see a warrant they were stealing from us
I do NOT want them given your blessing to keep what they stole from me, I want to find out how much of my property they stole and I want to get my property back, and you BETTER not give them license to keep my stuff
what the HELL is a REPUBLICAN introducing MORE bills that steal MY STUFF?
I don’t want to see ONE more bill from a republican UNTILL they start talking about impeaching the criminals in office
once they start talking about impeachment I will begin to think they have our best interest in mind
Bushy can pardon the telecoms after they are convicted of criminal wrong doing. Let’s have the facts and the trials. Let the chips fall where they may.
lhp’s posts are practically on insta-digg
John Bolton on CNN’s Situation Room just said the NIE is “just an analyst’s judgment” — not the near unanimous conclusion of 16 different intelligence agencies.
There is a revolution coming. It will be quiet and resounding. It will take place in the ballot box. Abouta year from now.
why is this guy on TEEvee and why don’t people laugh in the face of this moron?
I hope you’re right kiddo. I can feel it in the air. (or smell it as the case may be)
there was a coup, these criminals were never voted into office and I am not comfortable they will not steal yet another election
Thanks lhp.
I don’t want to sully your thread with the obscenities that Specter deserves.
Bushy can pardon criminal acts, but he cannot protect them from punitive damages in a civil lawsuit if I understand things correctly.
O.K. I know the drill.
Next, someone on Specter’s staff calls Joe Klein, who then writes a column stating that it would be “beyond stupid” for any Democrat to oppose Specter’s Great Bipartisan Good Telecom Citizenship Act(tm). Then, Glenn Greenwald writes a column explaining how Joe Klein is beyond stupid. The next day, several Time editors hang up on Jane, while Howard Kurtz ignores the whole thing because it isn’t on the Drudge Report. Meanwhile, Joe Klein writes several more columns explaining how he doesn’t have the time or the expertise to know whether or not the thoughts expressed in his initial column were stupid or not.
And so on, and so on….
Why not? Given the obscenity that is Snarlin’ Arlen, it would only be redundant.
Hallelujah, perris. Sing that out.
You understand things correctly. These are civil suits.
Criminal charges would be nice, but you’ve got to get a US Attorney to file them. Somehow, given the careful manner in which the US Attorneys appear to have been chosen of late, that doesn’t strike me as terribly likely.
Scarecrow, why do you say the “unanimous judgment” of 16 different intelligence agencies? I ask because I’ve heard this earlier, I believe on TV, but I thought that the NIE normally represents a consensus view. Is it always unanimous or worded so that it can be accepted unanimously or not voiced at all? Or was this one specifically unanimous?
“The legislation substitutes the U.S. in place of any electronic communication service company…”
Hitler would have started this floor speech out exactly the same way! Scary.
I sure hope you’re right too, but I wish I knew or could see signs of where the outrage is!
OT
Here’s a cute quote:
Where medicine is At these days
From a story in yesterday’s Wall Street Journal about out-of-control hospital costs. . . . the man who is the focus of the story was charged $791 for stockings designed to improve blood circulation that are sold on the Internet for $12, and charged up to $6,675 a night for an oxygen mask to help him breathe while sleeping (rentable from outside medical supply at $250).
“I do not deny that our charges look insane,” says Dr. Pont, CPMC’s chief medical officer. But all hospitals operate the same way, he says. “It’s the reality of the industry.”
If Arlen’s amendment is shot down, I’m sure he’ll find a way to insert it into another bill in the middle of the night for Georgie and his beloved jackboot licking telecom companies to protect them all. Hey, he’s good at that!
Me, too, and one more thing: why are the American people asleep at the wheel? If they’d ever wake the hell up, this whole mess could be avoided.
Dayam… Lose/Lose! No Liberty and No Security…! Our founding Fathers are spinning in their graves… 8-(
1,678 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen looseheadprop and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
First of all, great post loosehead, I hope all these infernal changes in the site mean that at least we’re gunna get ta hear from you more often. But my comment is: when are we gunna wake up and realize that corporate capitalism as we know it and democracy are NOT compatible. The use of the telecoms to monitor every single piece of communication of citizens in this country is the lesson that we ignore at the peril of steppin’ back to the dark ages of political history.
Enough of the scholastic arguments about how we fit undemocratic actions into the body of constitutional law…what we are faced with the ascension of the corporate state and unless we dismantle it and make the dismantling an articulated political objective in this election, we will be consigning our children and their children to the dustbin of history.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE FUCKIN’ AMMUNITION, I GOTTA RELOAD IF I’M GUNNA GETCHER BACK!!
OOooops. From EFF,
And besides that, Joe Klein cannot be expected to read and comprehend plain English.
“Substitution”. Imagine that. All these years I was thinking that was just another method for solving for variables. ;0)
Very Nice Snark Brian. You should give spew alerts though. It’s only kind
I’ve gotta few 55 Gal. drums of Napalm lying around, Norske… ;-)
Arlen and Harry Reid. Two pillars of what?
During the last round of phoning while FISA was being “crafted” and talked about I called Haggis’ office asking for no retroactive immunity. I was transfered to some young sweet thing on his Judiciary staff who assured me that he was dead set against immunity. I guess either she got it wrong, or he’s parsing again. Why am I not surprised?
Isn’t that the message of Max Headroom? I wish some network would rebroadcast that show. It was so ahead of it’s time.
Salt?
They must have looked backwards.
hey guys, I just had an epiphame!
do you know how rush managed to turn “liberal” into a perjurative simply with his intonation followed by some anecdote?
“republican” is now a perjurative!
that’s what this president has done to their brand and democrats can JUMP on this fact
from now on we can actually put a person on the defensive simply by asking;
“you’re a republican?”
democrats should use this technique when on the TEEvee
man, what has their party come to?
Henry Hyde, Alberto, Mukasey and Arlen. Four legal giants.
Help me out here, please! I’m one of Arlen’s constituents. (The Dem. isn’t so hot, either, and let’s not get started on my congressional rep.)
Anyway, I’m convinced that Arlen has minions checking the pros and cons on any given issue — ya wanna talk triangulator? He’s the ne plus ultra of triangulators — but I honestly am not sure how to word this message to him. “Arlen, you are being a scumbag as usual,” while truthful, is counterproductive. I’ll keep thinking about it, of course, but a nice, pithy, reasonably polite talking point would certainly help.
Any ideas?
1,678 DAYZ AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND..
Citizen kiddo and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
“Arlen and Harry Reid. Two pillars of what?”
That’s “piles” not pillars…
KEEP THE FAITH AND TAKE CARE OF EACH OTHER!!
Now, that I like. ;0)
Oh click on the link and read Specters introduction statement. He unequivocally states that he is against immunity which is why he is proposing substitution. Only substitution doesn’t solve the problem and may even make it worse………….ergh!
Brisingamen put out some pretty powerful spell….the sky is falling on the Oathtakers…..Bring it on!!
Everything they have ever done, ever…over the past 8 years has been one Big Lie!!! Everything.
P.S. I bought my oxygen concentrator for $250 on E-bay. Low mileage, so to speak, had it for about 2 years with no repairs or replacements needed yet, works well. A new one would have cost about $1,300; the insurance company would only rent me one for $250/mo that they paid. They rented it for over a year when the insurance was cut off because I made too much money. Go figure!
Thanks. (You might want to edit the post and put the link in up there, too, if you haven’t already.)
That EFF page uses a very dirty word, as far as Republicans go: AMNESTY. Surely Arlen wouldn’t be trying to let lawbreakers off the hook by giving anyone amnesty. Why, that would just encourage the next company that comes along to cross the border into illegal searches, working to violate the laws with impunity, and sanctioning all manner of terrible, horrible, no good, very bad things. Horrors!
Perhaps any firepups who decide to call the members of the Senate might want to use the word “AMNESTY” to describe what Specter is proposing — *especially* if your senator is a Republican.
Do we know if this is going to be offered as a substitute on the floor, or are we still at the committee stage?
just say to him “Haggis,” he’ll know
The system is totally nuts..”bed” charges don’t come close to paying nursing and other salaries..so hospitals jack up charges in areas where they can get reimbursed on the inflated charges. That is usually the pharmacy, the lab and respiratory therapy. the shell game keeps moving around, however.
Dear Sen. Specter As your constituent I want you to know that your amendment to have the government substituted in as a party to the telcom suits related to the illegal NSA domestic spying program don’t solve any problems associated with immunity and only serves to confuse the issue in the mind of the public.
Please let me make my position abundantly clear:
No retroactive immunity
No prospective immunity
No basket warrants
No substitution of parties
Truth, transparency and accountabilty instead.
Respectfully, yet insistently submitted,
Youffraita
An after thought: wasn’t Lott (Trent) also involved in that fiasco? Or am I mixed up here?
Peterr, I don’t know how to make changes once a post is live (which is why I never “update” only bury lots of good stuff in the comments)
I think it is in SJC.
We know there is criminal liability for both the Administration and the Telcoms for spying on American Citizens. It is that simple. No Amnesty for Criminals period. No States Secrets to protect Criminal Activities!!!
BTW, Tweety was going on and on about the new “language” this Administration has brought us, including “Homeland”!!!! I about fell over.
There is, I belive, over the counter medicine for that malady (piles).
Doo doo lite.
guys,
I am at the office and need to get home. I’ll be back on the thread in about 20 minutes (unless there is traffic. *g*)
Make plans, plot merrily and figure out how we can all get on Jane Harmon’s Unamerican activites list till I get back.
Thanks for the laugh! No — I need something a minion can read and understand. Arlen himself doesn’t read this stuff — that’s what staffers are for! When I’ve had a chance to really think on it, I’ll come up with something, but a good “sound bite” for Arlen’s minion (and maybe for the people at my job, should the topic arise) would be more than appreciated.
It’s a classic bait and switch. The government substitutes itself for the telecoms, declares it’s all a state secret, and everybody skates.
always here to put my spin on effective dialogue when framing these issues
simply say to him;
“why do you want them able to keep the intelectual property they’ve stolen?”
if he answers;
“they were helping gather information for national security”
you answer;
“excuse me, if that’s what they can say but how on earht do you know they haven’t stolen from you, me and whoever they wanted to steal from?”
there is no answer to that question, none
you can also ask him;
“you aren’t telling me you trust anything this president tells us, are you?”
man, that last question will send chills down his spine
Run it through Spell-Check first, then submit it over Selise’s vcard system… *g*
Speaking of Arlen, when I’ve tried to send him a fax, the phone rings busy usually, but even when it’s not busy, it doesn’t answer the fax. I wonder if we’ve got the right number for him, because I checked the number I had with the one Selise produced, and they are the same. If anyone has a fax # for Arlen, I’d sure appreciate it if they could update me with it.
The 2008 elections are not a sure thing. There is work to do.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
are you the formerly known as Oklahoma kiddo?
Just now on ABC News, Charlie Gibson tried to spin the NIE by saying that it doesn’t say that Iran won’t start up a nuclear weapons program in the future.
Re the Saudi rape case, he quotes Bush saying today at his presser that Bush thought about what if it was his daughter and felt angry about it. Gibson did not go on to the follow up question that Bush was so angry about it that he couldn’t remember if he had brought it up with Saudi king Abdullah last week in Annapolis.
Spin, spin, spin.
Perhaps a Lurking Mod can put the EFF link into the post for LHP while she’s in traffic. When people spotlight the post around, it’d be good for it to have the link up at the top. Not everyone who gets it will know to look for the good stuff buried in the “commnets.”
The outrage is at the gas pumps, in checkout line of grocery stores, wherever people open their heating bills and when they pay their mortgages or check out the value of their stock portfolios.
Sad to say, most people in this country only pay attention when it’s hitting them hard in the wallet. Which it is, and ready to get much worse.
People need to think about how this affects them and the cascading affect. Many people think: Oh; I am not doing anything wrong – who cares if the gov’t is listening to my telephone conversations?” They need to think: If the government gets away with this, what’s to stop George Bush from asking my healthcare or insurance provider “Has Helen had an abortion? Don’t worry, you can tell us; here’s a letter that holds you harmless.”
I changed one of my mac function keys to auto-digg-lhp.
Yes. My friend. ;0)
It’s a good thing Reverend Peterr is here,helps me to avoid my usual use of expletives in these cases.
Specter is submitting legislation to cover for things that he does not even know have happened.
That has to be on some kind of list somewhere.Mysteries of the universe or something.
Can we maybe call it the Pinnochio ammendment?
helen, you’re playing into their hands, the reason we need privacy has nothing to do with hiding something we’ve done wrong or are ashamed of
the reason we need imunity is to hide what we’ve done right, which we are most proud, which we need to keep proprietory
your life work, your manuscript,your bussiness contacts, who you want to date, what you want to do with that person, what you want to buy
what your bussiness knows that other businesses don’t know, what you will charge for something, what you will pay for equiptment, what you will bid what you will accept
once we fall into the discussion “if you didn’t do anything wrong you have nothing to hide” we are on the defensive
rather;
“if you have nothing to hide then you are a failure”
take the offensive and put it to them instead of taking it from them
YAYYY!!!
I was hoping…good to see you on this side of the glass
man I miss the edit button
where I said “immunity” I meant “privacy”
are we gonna see an edit button ever again?
Or maybe call it a “Rumsfeld Amendment” . . . from Slate:
I like it.
Thank you. I’ve already done the “no retroactive immunity” to him at least twice, perhaps 3 or 4 times, and of course will do so again. Probably enough of his constituents have done the same thing that he figures he’ll cover all bases by appeasing us with this “compromise” while doing the bidding of his WH masters.
The problem is, as you say, his legislation does confuse the issue. Hell, I’m confused too, at this moment.
But this is Arlen Specter. That’s what he does. That is how he stays in office. He’s a weasel. He uses weasel words that can be parsed however he wants you to parse them.
And that’s why I need a great line to deliver. If I’m reading this situation correctly, Arlen’s going to try to deflect the flak from voters like me by telling us he’s on our side, meanwhile giving Shrubbie whatever he asks for. What phrase cuts through the bullshit?
Perris – I am not saying abortion is something wrong or to be ashamed of -I am saying that it is absolutely something that can be held against someone.
That being said “if you have nothing to hide then you are a failure” is quite an interesting comment. Hmmmmm.
that’s Arlen’s single document theory. No, no, no Arlen, in his eyes “this” is not like a simple assignment of mortgage?
Hey, that’s good. I didn’t mean to give the impression that I actually know Arlen. I am only a constituent who contacts his office (i.e. minions) whenever I feel strongly about an issue…frequently. But your suggestions are great; they can be worked into a dynamite letter.
Thanks very much!
Dear Senator Spector,
I am a constituent.
Following the events of 9/11, the Administration attempted to stonewall an investigation of these horrific events.
Following the invasion of Afghanistan, this Administration pulled troops out of Afghanistan, who was harboring those that attacked the United States of America.
Following the Iraq invasion, it became clear that the intelligence leading us into that invasion was based upon false premises and cherry-picked intelligence.
It has come to light that Telephone companies were contacted prior to 9/11 and asked to participate in mass surveillance, including that of United States Citizens.
Following a prolonged escalation of tensions with Iran over the last five years, it has come to light that Iran had ceased it’s nuclear arms program four years ago, and the Administration has continued to misrepresent the truth regarding that contrived threat, bringing us to the brink of war, possibly involving tactical nuclear arms.
Now, regardless of all of the dubious claims repeatedly made by this Administration, you wish to push through legislation which serves to protect this very same Administration and those companies that have cooperated in their activities which appear to have been illegal. Surely, at this late date in your career you would be wise to distance yourself from their blatant disregard for the very Constitution of the United States, which you have pledged under oath to protect and defend. Your actions at this time will represent your legacy.
Therefore, I ask that you immediately refuse the following:
Retroactive immunity
Prospective immunity
Basket warrants
Substitution of parties
States Secrets protection
As you are well aware, it is your duty as an elected representative of the Citizens of the United States to abide by the law and the spirit of the Constitution.
Please refrain from political partisanship, and proceed to enable the laws of our Nation to be upheld. Our future depends on it.
Sincerely,
ModNote:
The post has been updated above to reflect the EFF link, Peterr.
Okay, gotta ask…
First: yes, Arlen’s substitution horse hockey is horse hockey, but…
…remember the Qwest stuff? BushCo was authorizing this way before 9/11/01. Er?
It seems to me that the ability of the adm to keep spinning their lies is deteriorating faster in spite of a compliant media. I think the 7 year rot is nearing a level of stench too hard to miss for most americans. There are too many scandal & corruption balls to juggle with more thrown into the mix every day. I think (& pray) kiddo is right about revolution at the voting booth. I also think the disgust with the R’s will be so strong by that time, nothing they do to try to steal the election will be enough.
Just a feeling.
But, but…Nobody ever told W…
Here’s his list of offices, with fax numbers; I don’t know whether they’re current:
http://specter.senate.gov/publ…..eLocations
Good luck!
Wow, Balkinization is rocking with tomorrow’s oral arguments on Boumediene by Scotus…
http://balkin.blogspot.com/
All hail the Mods!
We have been hungry and thirsting for justice for the last seven years. Mother justice will not be denied. You, George W. Bush. You, Karl Rove. You, Richard Cheney cannot hide. You will be brought to the feet of justice.
LS!!! Brilliant letter!!!
{{{LS}}}}
To LS at 81:
Thanks, but…see my problem? Any discussion gets into nuances. He has a sound-bite “compromise” which, to refute, I must become a policy wonk. What’s needed here is a sound-bite that says his “solution” to no-retroactive-immunity actually gives retroactive immunity.
Isn’t the WGA strike over yet?
Hey, not in a million years would I defend Rumsfeld; but he was attempting to use a quote which is actuallly quite illuminating given this adminstration. It goes something like:
There are things we know.
There are thing we don’t know.
And there are things we don’t know that we don’t know – and they are the most dangerous.
Thanks, LHP! Yes, I’ve been practicing my harmonies to add to your melody:
* No loosy-goosy “reasonable belief” standard– keep the original “probable cause standard”
* No fair substituting Executive Branch oversight for Court oversight!
* No bill is better than a bad bill (because it leaves the original FISA legislation intact)
And don’t you love the backup chorus by the Congressional Progressive Caucus? They’ve got the groove!
Bob in HI
I see what you mean.
I don’t care how long it takes. I want George W. Bush to answer for his crimes. And to that end I will push.
OT..Rudy tanking in new La-Times Poll:
The new numbers — 17% for Huckabee and 23% for Giuliani — show a steep slide by the former New York mayor since October’s poll (when he had 32%) and a more than doubling of Huckabee support from 7% back then. This could mean the conservative religious vote, variously estimated at 20% to 40% of the Iowa caucuses, appears to be congregating around the genial Arkansan, who until now has lagged in fundraising. Such encouraging results may help donations now.
Oh my, that was quite excellent.
I plan to shamelessly steal most of that letter.
Thanks!
Jane upstairs
Youffraita, I wouldn’t worry so much about policy wonkiness. Just communicate your outrage. That’ll come across.
100
me too O.K. Impeachment won’t come close. Landslide defeat at polls, nice but not enough. Destruction of rethug party? About time. No the only thing that will answer to all the Fuckery is The Hague.
There’s a way to phrase it; I’ll find something. But with minions, pithy and easy-to-remember seems best. And that’s the hardest kind of writing to do: just ask the WGA or any editor.
damn. i’m sorry i missed the start of this thread, i’m been putting in a comment on the last couple of threads hoping that LHP would see it.
the senate judicary committee will be marking up senator spector’s new fisa bill on thursday during their previously scheduled 10am business meeting – with fisa now at the top of the agenda. (see the weekly hearings list of the update).
also, for folks who care about human rights and habeas corpus – the center for constitutional rights will be arguing Al Odah and Boumediene before the supreme court tomorrow – and we can listen live on c-span radio starting at 11:15am.
AlwaysSpellcheck, proofread and edit anything you get from me!!!!!!
damn. epu’ed again.
lhp, if you by any chance see my 103, will you leave me a note in this thread? if i know you have the info about thursday’s sjc mark up, i won’t keep trying to find you in the threads. thx!
another thought on OK kiddo’s comment about justice. It’s not just Americans that need an accounting. The whole world needs this. The whole world hungers for justice from these criminals.
Please see the movie, Minority Report. Our system of justice is based on what people do, not what they might do. And the small amount of cases based on “might do” laws require a heavy burden of proof. You can’t put someone in jail for having bad thoughts. You can only do so if you can prove that they are a danger to themselves or others.
I guess what’s really at stake here is standards of likelihood. Darth Cheney wants to “protect” you against Chicken Little threats by taking away your civil rights. I think we ought to start calling Buscheney “Chicken Littles”. They run around in circles squawking about the dangers of Iraq and Iran, only to find out they had nothing but bad thoughts. Our bankruptcy is certain if we spend all of our grandchildren’s money sending hundreds of thousands of manpower and equipment chasing around the world in pursuit of will-o-the-whisps. That’s not strength; its idiocy.
Bob in HI
America was not founded by risk-averse people– if they were risk-averse, they would have stayed at home.
Selise, check out Lederman’s take on Boumediene and Al Odah at Balkin… *g*
Sorry, LHP, my editor never sleeps. This is for Youffraita in case you’re copying it:
Dear Sen. Specter as your consituent I want you to know that your am
mendment to have the government substituted in as a party to the telcom suits related to the illegal NSA domestic spying programdon’tdoesn’t solve any problems associated with immunity and only serves to confuse the issue in the mind of the public.Please let me make my position abundantly clear:
No retroactive immunity
No prospective immunity
No basket warr
eantsNo substitution of parties
Truth, transpar
aency and accountability instead.Respectfully, yet insistently submitted,
Youffraita
YAY LHP and Youffraita. Go for it. (Preview hasn’t been working, so I hope the edits come through properly.
With this font it is difficult to read. The spelling is “warrants” and “transparency”
will do, thanks!
first though, i’m going to see if i can find some additional fax numbers for ann in az.
I know… *g* But, we love ya anyways… 8-)
Ms. Molly, You’re piling on lhp! Cut her some slack… *g*
Yeah, I think I just might copy it. (Preview hasn’t been working for me, either — a new-digs problem?)
Thanks to everybody! Arlen’s a slime-sucker…but he does make life more interesting (what’s his next scummy trick?).
re: specter contact info. the phone numbers in the vcards are correct. you might also try calling and asking for one of these aides (and ask them for a better fax number – one that actually works). i will also try tomorrow to call and get a better number.
chief of staff: scott hoeflich
legislative director: tom dower
administrative director: reagan blewett
Helen, I agree that perris has a really good point. Intellectual property. Say you are a scientist for a small biotech company and have discovered a cure for the common cold. You exchange info with a colleague. Big brother snatches it up and sells it to Merck.
How could you prove that you own the information?
This is about more than finding terrorists.
LS@81
Wonderful!
Back from the traffic folks. Just catching up on the thread.
If I waited unitl the end of the thread to start for home, Littleprop wpuld already be in the shower and on her way to bed by the time I hit the house.
This single parenting thing makes you really pay attention to getting good “face time” with teh squirt!
I saw it thanks.
p.s. some day i’ll get ambitious and add the names of aides to the vcard contact info.
thanks!
Nothing better LHP.
Didn’t mean to pile on. By the time I got my corrections done, a ton of additional comments had come in. I meant no harm, honest.
I know… It was a feeble attempt at snark! 8-)
No harm done,no offense taken–to the contrary, I appreciate it when others care enough to clean up my messy typing
Oh, I got it. ;-)
After reading the comments that came in while I was wrestling with the “toolbar” I did feel a bit like I was piling on. Unfortunately, I really do have this little internal editor that never, ever sleeps. Curse or blessing, depending…
Sure wish Preview would come back.
I wish I had an internal editor. I have an almost pathological inability to see my own typos. I see what I meant to type, not what I did type
OT – Just got a letter from MoveOn asking for a “flood” of letters to the editor about Bush’s lies today on Iran. Seems like a worthy cause to me, although I’ve had zero luck getting anything published in the Chicago Tribune.
The problem is that I can rewrite my own rewriting until someone snatches it out of my hands, or I hand it to someone and say, “Here, I’m finished!”
Thanks again to everybody. For what it’s worth, I think I’ll go with something like this:
In re the illegal NSA domestic spying program:
Your amendment to have the government substituted in as a party to the telecom suits doesn’t solve any problems.
Although it does serve to confuse the issue in the mind of the public.
Please let me make my position abundantly clear:
No retroactive immunity
No prospective immunity
No basket warrants
No substitution of parties
Truth, transparency and accountability. Always and only, if we are to remain a free nation.
Besides: you don’t expect me to believe anything this Administration says, do you? Do YOU believe anything this Administration says?
To repeat:
No retroactive immunity
No prospective immunity
No basket warrants
No substitution of parties
NICE!
Thanks: I stole a lot of it from you, of course. *g* Hope you don’t mind too much.
Selise,
Really? The person’s name is really Reagan Blewitt? Snarlin’ Arlen has a staffer named Reagan Blewitt MWAHHAHAHAHA
yep. using the link i got from lhp:
http://origin.www.gpoaccess.gov/cdirectory/
LHP – You are right about Max Headroom. I actually think that we will soon have Edison Carter like newsmen running around soon with portable webcams duct taped to their heads. They will instantly be better than Suzanne Malveaux and most of the other lunks on the tee vee.
Well that at least explains something that one of Specter’s Intelligence Committee staffers told me this morning. When she said that he was against telco immunity, I was initially stunned. But now, I understand it was just part of his double-speak.
Now is the time for a full-court press on each of our individual Senators and on Harry Reid. I’ll be calling both of mine tomorrow and asking them to vote NO on Specter’s amendment.
By now anyone should know that if Arlen Specter supports it, oppose it and run away from it. He’s far and away one of the biggest simpletons in the Senate and clearly and consistently a Bush Rubber stamp.
This statement is quintissential for what an idiot he is.
The way things are going you’re never going to know what the telecoms did and are doing to you.
All these components of the Surveillance bill that gets stuffed um “down your chimney” before Santa comes is going to be stuffed their complements of your jello livered Senators and Congressmen who are the same worthless type of people as Jello Jay Rockerfeller.
Immunity Prospective and Retrospective –You bet your bippy. Done Deal.
Basket Warrants you bet your bippy. Done Deal.
And again, again
there is component after component in the language of every bill so far that the arbiter of what’s illegal surveillance is D.O.J. All of that languageshould but won’t be stricken from any bill.
Preview not working either still.
lhp and bmaz – i’m a big max headroom fan too…. and i have the entire series on dvd – it’s never been released, mine are ripped from vhs recordings of the original tv episodes. let me know if i should make you copies.
I’m thinking that in proposing this “back-door immunity”, the goal is two fold.
1. To protect these undefined “Electronic Communication Service Companies”
2. To make it impossible to ever learn what transpired or who was involved
The problem with the lack of definition is that term could be a mighty big tent. e.g. voting machine companies whose software communicates voting tabulations. Anyone who provides services and uses electronic communications in the process. A lot of folks could be shoehorned into this definition if convenient and enabled by govt.
The substitution thing will prevent anyone ever being able to get to the bottom of the facts. Administrations and people will change. They will have no info about what happened and the Service Companies will have no incentive whatsoever to help sort things out. Any claims will just slip down a dark hole once it is understood the govt will claim secrecy to all.
This is a very bad portent for government’s dealings with private contractors. The intent seems to be to afford them the kinds of protections and immunities that governments (of necessity) have in terms of their dealings. And yet not to hold these entities either to the rules and standards that are applicable to governmental agencies or the standards and remedies normally applicable to private businesses. Appears these entities are to be responsible only to the govt that hired them and can then operate without either public or private constraints – with the ability to do for govt indirectly what govt can’t do directly.
This goes well past the telco spying in terms of the very dangerous precedent it sets.
Good point on the large electronic device tent that’s created by the nebulous language in this bill.
And you’re exactly right. The infrastructure of the immunity in this bill is complete coverup. We are seeing more and more legislation that is constructed to coverup unconstitutional horror stories.
The reason this egregious legislation has such an overwhelming chance of passing is that the American people remain ignorant and indifferent of it in big numbers. Hell, they’re ignorant and indifferent of most every aspect of the Iraq war. Talk to your neighbors if you think I’m kidding.
There’s an old aphorism about the American people getting the democracy or lack of it that they deserve, and most of them are getting precisely that.
The major media that most Americans depend on to get their news has evolved into a two bit crime blotter. Very few Americans read any newspapers or websites that might enlighten and teach them.
And again, while this issue is very much alive and discussed on blogs like this one, the vast majority of Americans couldn’t discuss it to save their ass. They don’t know and they are two ignorant to care.
That’s why these legislative enablers, (and the Democrats for the most part are as guilty as the Republicans) are free to enable and sellout to the Telco lobbyists and contributions that are tantamount to bribes.