I really think I’ve had enough of Profile in Courage Barack Obama trying to pin Hillary Clinton for voting "yea" on the toxic Kyl-Lieberman bill while he was huddled in the corner somewhere and didn’t vote. If Obama cared so very much about the bill and isn’t just being a political opportunist, then why didn’t he mention it in their debate that very night? Seems like it might have been a good time to bring it up.
But the truth is, Joe Lieberman once again led everyone over a cliff introducing a stupid and bellicose Iran bill. He’d done it just this last summer, too. Right after Lieberman voted against the troops and against the Webb Amendment, he launched a new Iran Amendment. As Siun wrote at the time:
This gist of the amendment: It is the sense of the senate that Iran is participating in acts of war against the United States. (h/t OpenLeft)
They were making minor changes to the language right up to the last minute but the released draft states:
that “the murder of members of the United States Armed Forces by a foreign government or its agents is an intolerable act of hostility against the United States,” and demands the government of Iran “take immediate action” to end all forms of support it is providing to Iraqi militias and insurgents. The amendment also mandates a regular report on Iran’s anti-coalition activity in Iraq.
Joe says:
“For many months, our military commanders and diplomats have warned us that the Iranian government has been training, equipping, arming, and funding proxies in Iraq who are murdering our troops,” said Senator Lieberman. “This amendment is a common sense, common ground statement of the Senate to Tehran: we know what you are doing, and you must stop.”
Levin and Salazar asked to be added as co-sponsors before the language was finalized, McCain used the bullshit Michael Gordon Hezbollah story to justify his vote, Graham waxed poetic comparing Iranian leadership to Hitler and Sen Durbin spoke of his support – as long as the amendment specified that it was not an authorization of military action. (Wow, what a relief! We all know that little details like congressional authorization matter so much to this White House).
Levin introduced the actual vote on the Lieberman Amendment by stressing that the Senate stands as one and that Iran had better listen.
The vote on that bill? 97-0. (those not voting: Brownback (R-KS), Johnson (D-SD), and Vitter (R-LA). We were all gobsmacked. And both Obama and Clinton had no trouble voting for that one.
Meanwhile, Hillary Clinton’s response to the NIE revelations today is utter gibberish:
"The new declassified key judgments of the Iran NIE expose the latest effort by the Bush administration to distort intelligence to pursue its ideological ends. The assessment of the NIE vindicates the policy Senator Clinton will pursue as President: vigorous American-led diplomacy, close international cooperation, and effective economic pressure, with the prospect of carefully calibrated incentives if Iran addresses our concerns. Neither saber rattling nor unconditional meetings with Ahmadinejad will stop Iran’s nuclear ambitions. Senator Clinton has the strength and experience to conduct the kind of vigorous diplomacy needed to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons."
It’s just so full of contradictions and false assumptions it’s hard to know where to start.
The whole "war on terror" frame has everyone in this race speaking and acting like idiots. They might as well be shrieking about the Red Menace. It forces everyone to prove they are a giant swinging codpiece and thus "tough on terra," but really a diplomat at heart.
You don’t have to be terribly bright to see that following Joe Lieberman’s lead on anything falls under the category of "brutally stupid." Somehow our front runner candidates just do not seem to grasp that yet.
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jane!
petrecca!
HRC a “giant swinging codpiece”?? Blergh!!
jane and petrecca!
I’ve had about enough of joe. And Good Evening, Jane.
happy to see you at the new digs! thank you very much!
The only thing I EVER want to hear Lieberman say is GOODBYE FOREVER.
So what’s a couple of UFOs between friends. I mean, it could happen to anyone, right? So the UFO said nice things to Dennis; what’s so bad about that? Doesn’t Dennis look better and better? And hey, he’s no shorter than Hillary, unless he’s wearing heels and she isn’t.
Is it just me, or is the 75% of the country that has given up on the Iraq war also now unscared about the terra wars? Somehow this bloviating by Rs & Ds alike seems to be falling on empty ears.
It’s just beyond me why anyone would vote in favor of Kyl-Lieberman, or not vote at all on that bill. And as for Lieberman, I think he should be forced to register as a lobbyist for a foreign government. Gawd I thirst for some fresh faces and freshness in our government. No to Obama. No to Clinton. And no to any more from Bush.
Is this OKK under new management? Or another ‘kiddo’?
This is what passes for honest debate in the Democratic Party? “Nyah Nyah neener neener and you are one too…”
Obama and Clinton are both losing whatever small amount of credibility they had in this crap. HRC has never been my favorite, and I’ll certainly pull the lever for her (and hold my nose) over any repuke next year. Obama needs more time as a “National” pol to get some credibility. It seems like every time we nominate an non-”National” candidate (i.e. someone who can play the Washington insider cocktail-weenie circuit) we get a one-hit wonder. The Big Dog probably would not have won the ‘92 election had it not been for that other wacko Texan Ross Perot, who effectively split the right-wing vote. Not that Clinton owed Perot anything, but his two-term presidency was the Democratic exception, not the rule and the Villagers savaged him for no t being one of “them”. All we got was Preznit Bunnypants and a stupid t-shirt.
Hey, Busted @7 . . . Glad to meet up with you a couple weeks ago here in PDX. Hope all’s well . . .
You too. That was way cool.
Obama also goes on about how he was against the war from the start, and yet when he had the chance to campaign for THE candidate who changed the dialogue about the war, Ned Lamont, he choose not to.
darn. can’t post. testing?
lol, no fair! switched news feeds on me :)
I wondered why it was so quite over here *g
I know it’s off topic, but where’s Christy?
I’m still Oklahoma kiddo. ;0)
Okay, try again.
Yes. Agreed. if it’s Obama, I won’t even vote for him, for any reason. Clinton, I don’t think so. She’s smart, she’s powerful, she’s got major cohones, but she is on the wrong page.
vacation for a couple of weeks.
Vacation, quality time with her family and baking Christmas cookies.
While these two children bicker, Huckabee picks up support.
Jane,
You speak an essential truth!
How strange it is to hear all these denizens of the Village including both Obama and Clinton thumping their chests and incanting their curses against the next group of demonic evildoers abroad.
One could well imagine we are still living in Stone Age times and hurling jawbones of asses and howls of rage at those living across the unfordable river.
Times have changed certainly, but it seems people have not.
Like you I suspect, one can hardly stand the scriptwriters who cobble together this kabuki.
It’s just so full of contradictions and false assumptions it’s hard to know where to start.
“All is well, so let’s go let’s make sure that they’re good and goddammed aware that we’ll no longer put up with what they weren’t doing.”
“And I mean it!”
OT, but still about getting this admin to come clean: From tpmmuckraker.com:
Would Sen. Whitehouse be amenable to visiting FDL? We could have a post or two putting up what we know about his curious vote on the SJC FISA bill so we had our thoughts straight before he came in. We might be very pleased by the conversation, and I would guess that we would not speak to a smarter person for a while.
The experience might come in handy should someone decide that even though RI is purty small, its junior Senator would help a Democratic ticket, perhaps as VP. Talk about putting in someone who could clean out the Augean stables.
kiddo @23… yup. Exactly.
Edwards ‘08. Edwards/Kucinich ‘08.
We pay U.S. senators about $160,000 per year, plus perks, for a three day work week. And this is what we get for our money?
And Lahoma? Should we watch for her under a new name?
So if she is wrong she is likely to persist in her wrongness. (See her vote on the 2002 AUMF and her support of the Iraq war into what? 2006? Not a good sign, not a good sign at all.
Can someone remind me what exactly Clinton and Obama did or didn’t do with regard to the Lamont-Liarman race, both before and after the primary?
Yeah, Lieberman is interested in seeing a puke in office, so anyone that listens to him is a bonehead or boneheadess.
Aloha Ya’ll! I, for one, am greatly pleased that the Iranian NIE has been released… It’s nice to see serious institutional push-back against Darth Cheney’s grand designs… Hopefully, the drums are muted… 8-)
Obama-Hillary Iran debate simplified:
Pot: Yes, you did.
Kettle: No, I didn’t but you did.
Pot: Yes, you did.
Kettle: No, I didn’t but you did.
Pot: Yes, you did.
Kettle: No, I didn’t but you did.
Edwards can think for hissef, he doesn’t need stinkin’ Lieberliar to coach him.
As far as I recall, Clinton met with Lamont in New York, a photo op really, but then didn’t follow it up with any in state support or endorsement.
Not to mention “Bomb, bomb, bomb; bomb bomb Iran”…eat crow McCain!!!
I doubt that it will faze him. He can probably think of plenty of other reasons to bomb Iran.
IIRC Obama endorsed Lieberman in the primary and went to Connecticut to announce it. I don’t know that he did anything later because at that point Lieberman was not the Democratic candidate.
Bill went and did a similar high profile endorsement of Lieberman for the primary. After Lamont won, Hillary wrote him a check and I think arranged a New York fundraiser for him. I have a vague recollection that she may have made available some campaign strategists to him with disastrous results. Connecticut folks would without a doubt remember more and better.
Nope. Lahoma is Lahoma. The smartest, sweetest, and prettiest person I’ve ever known.
It’s hard to believe that this line-up of crazies is the best the rethug side can offer.
Excellent comment Mr. MadDog!
Here’s a blast from the past starring Craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy Joey!
Planet Joe, the planet of Liars and Idiots!
Yeah, too damn bad the brain-dead ‘voters’ in CT, The NutBall State, couldn’t quite figure out that Ol’ Joe, Ol’ Joe he was a’ lyin’ to them.
She wisely picked this week to go on vacation. She’ll be back in 2 weeks.
From a diary by Tim Tagarris on KOS right after the election
CT-Sen: So You Wanna Know What Really Happened?
There was a segment on the NewsHour just now with David Kay and Peter Robin? discussing the NIE. Needless to say there was not a liberal in sight. Curiously, it was Kay who was the voice of reason. This was not hard since Robin or whatever his name was basically arguing that Iran wanted a bomb and he for one was not going to let facts or his lying eyes convince him otherwise.
Arms Control Wonk has a good piece up…
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/
Ok my comment att 44 was in response to nuerophius @ 31 not Hugh @30
Now this, this is as an edifying a piece of video as you will every find about what’s wrong with the ‘Democrat’ Party. It stars one of my useless Senators from CA, heh…it ain’t the on you think neither pal, and shows just what the political aristocracy really thinks of you the citizen.
From the deepest archives of FDL I give you the:
The Boxer Short
I believe tha’s Spazboy in there. What a progressive force that guy was and is!
OKK, I thought you really wanted a face from even farther back. You know, one named Gore. OTOH, it’s now unlikely he’ll ever run again. In lieu of that fact, I guess my current favorite will be Edwards. How ’bout you?
Don’t know why, but I find myself thinkng about the two of you down there at odd times. Maybe because you know how to live in a landscape that would puzzle the daylights out of me. Glad you both made it through the Registration Wall.
When Rahmbo is one of the chief strategists, are you really surprised?
More and better Dems, please — up and down the ticket.
That’s most of the story. Hillary loaned Wolfson to Lamont for some campaign advice (ugh!) Other pieces: there were other efforts to get Obama to help Lamont in the general, but they never worked out or were too little too late; Obama was on tour in Africa, etc. Part of the post-primary confusion while we waited for the DEM PARTY leadership to get Lieberman to drop out, as they promised, but didn’t.
But the killer was when Bill Clinton went on Larry King just before the general election (I think?) and said how fortunate Connecticut Dems were because they would either get Lieberman or Lamont, and both were Dems . . . and then he said, with his wife’s Iraq position in mind, that the different views on Iraq weren’t that important. We took it as a knife in the back, delivered with a smile. Bill did it; Hillary was clean.
Knock on wood, but this NIE may torpedo Cheney’s moves to start a war with Iran before Bush leaves office. It also shows up what a bunch of fools Congress contains. 5 years after going off the cliff with Iraq they were inching toward a military confrontation with a string of increasingly hawkish resolutions of which Kyl-Lieberman was the latest.
That’s it for me too. I really wanted Gore to run, supported the Draft Gore movement. But if he won’t then I support Edwards. I like his passion, like his belligerent posture toward the DC establishment.
Edwards, with an astute pick for running mate.
Jane, there really *is* a problem with Iran just by the nature of where it sits geographically. I doubt they have nukes or are likely to get one soon but they are in cahoots with the Russians over the pipline under the Caspian Sea AND they border the Strait of Hormuz. If Iran ever got constipation and decided not to let any more oil thru, it could bring the world to its knees. Now is the time to stop pussyfooting around and figure out how to talk with them.
One thing’s for sure. Karl Rove is getting a kick out of the school yard antics of my party’s two front runners.
Very Interesting non–Clinton non-endorsement today on Minnesota Public Radio from Arvonne Fraser, who has just published her political biography, and was interviewed by Garrison Keillor on Minnesota Public Radio’s Midday Program. For those who don’t know Arvonne, she is hard to describe thoroughly, but just to say she dates back to working in Hubert Humphrey’s campaign in 1948, she ran her Husband’s Congressional office for nearly 20 years in the 60’s and 70’s, she was the first Assistant Sec of State for Womens’ Affairs during the Carter Administration, and when Reagan junked the office, she moved most of the functions back to Minnesota and ran many of the programs out of the Humphrey Institute on private money. She was a founder of the Women’s Equity Action League, NOW, and a couple of others.
At any rate, she came on pretty strong rejecting Hillary’s candidacy, on Feminist Grounds. She went over a string of women who won Congressional Office on the merit of their dead husbands, and makes the case that even though Bill is quite alive, this is really little different — and that authentic arrival of a woman at the top of the ticket should be about a woman who shows the assets of electing a woman, who isn’t afraid of making the positive case for the change.
It was an interesting interview — archived at the Minnesota Public Radio Site — By someone who dates back to the Truman Era, but who has never been afraid to speak up.
Interesting. Tweety is, of course, talking about toe tapping…instead of talking about the fact that they were trying to lie us into war again, and they got caught! This is huge! This is treason. They point blank, in black and white, lied their butts off to the world. They have been trying to get American citizens to give up their lives, while participating in potentially killing hundreds of thousands of Iranians, for another lying sack of crap, manipulated, not even cherry picked; this time flat out covering up the truth of a lie. Madness, madness, madness. That is the crux of the matter. Not why, or how…they lied, and the Administration needs to be held accountable. And, Pelosi’s sugary side-stepping in light of this treasonous revelation is inexcusable!!! She must have known.
Well, we could start by *cough* talking, instead of threatening.
I wish Alfred Kelgarries were up and running. I could use some of his semiotics kung fu on this NIE release.
John Edwards was the first national Democrat to campaign for Ned Lamont after he won the Democratic primary, iirc.
Lahoma and I both long for a President Gore. For we believe strongly that without the health of Mother Earth, we have nothing.
You have to understan that Iran would not try to close the Straits of Hormuz on a whim but only if they felt existentially threatened. Iran has a very corrupt, dysfunctional economy. It needs the oil to flow as much as anyone. Now with oil prices at elevated levels (the Cushing spot closed at $89.31 today) they have even more incentive to do so.
She did write a check, though. $5K wasn’t it?
me 2.
FunnyD
off to rehearsal, see all y’all at Late Late.
That’s it.
Yes, a President Gore.How about Gore/Obama.
That is my fervent hope! The window is 2010-15 for a bomb, well after Shrub is outta office, and, if Iran fully utilized their cascades of centrifuges, however, they’ve consistently have under-utilized… See my #46 comment…
Gawd it would be nice to have a Senator Lamont now. We hope he will run again for office.
Sara, Thank you. I dug up the audio link here. Will listen to it shortly.
Me 2, but I did notice in an outline of Edwards’ global warming points awhile back that they were the same as Gore’s. I think Edwards is the real deal this time (last time, not so much), but because of the crises he and his family have been facing, I think he has the best motivation for being real. He’s been brought to his knees, and I believe he will do the right thing for the planet. Gore just doesn’t seem to be anywhere on the radar, but who knows…
Mother Earth is being tortured and violated…it really makes me cry…people forget that we are produce of earth, not some commodity to make money from…sorry for the rant…I’m pissed about the NIE and Pelosi.
How dare those little people threaten the world. That oil belongs to Exxon and the neo-cons. The “civilized” world will never let the Russians have it. Their fossil fuel needs to be burned on our interstates, until every drop is gone. Blood For $100 Oil! Today and Forever!
Rehearsing what?
Democratic core values have gone missing in the Bermuda Triangulation.
Please, rant on. We need a lot more ranting around this issue. We need immediate action. This is the issue of this age. Everything else is secondary.
Why is it that Dems in Congress seem like 13-year old boys trying to emulate their 18-year-old upper classmen? What is in the Kool-Aid they’re drinking? They think that in order to be considered “strong”, they are supposed to squeal in support of every piece of violence the Buscheney administration wants to inflict on the world, and then cry and whine about the big meanie Republicans who they complain are keeping them from doing the right thing? Just how does that project strength? They would appear stronger if they stood up to Bush and just said “NO!” to his war fantasies.
At last, finally, they have tied up funding for Buscheney’s war and seem to be holding fast on that. I just hope they have the strength to persist. We’ll see how “strong” they really are.
I’m just learning where to find “preview” in the composition window, but Preview doesn’t really preview, and “Edit” is gone. Help!
Bob in HI
Schuster bringin’ some truth sitting in for KO.
That’s right! How dare they come to agreement with Russia? Terraists!
those little people whose culture is, what, 5000 years old?
I totally agree, and if Gore would run, I will gladly vote for him. But it seems he’s determined to be a venture capitalist to provide capital to those that want to change to a greener way of doing things, so I don’t think he can do both.
I’m so excited that Wolfowitz is going to be an advisor on WMD’s!!! Whoopee we’re all gonna die…Not!!! Honestly, I think they hired him to protect him via States Secrets from crappola that is gonna come out when the whistleblowers finally let the cats out of the bag. I predict major popcorn runs coming up over the next few months…
Well, yes, but strutting around like John Wayne and talking like an idiot only draws snickers from Iranian strategists. You need a diplomat capable of some subtlety and knowledge of the history of the area, qualities that seem to be absent from the Buscheney administration.
Bob in HI
But, but, creationists say we’re only…a few thousand years old, when we suddenly “appeared” on Mother Earth (Auntie Earth in their minds)…from where? Mars?
Only Christians came from outer space…maybe that’s it.
Whoa, some serious spin put out by Stephen Hadley…! Last Tuesday… WTF?
I love Rachel Maddow!
Whoa, some serious spin put out by Stephen Hadley…! Last Tuesday… WTF?
I think it’s the podium in the WH Press Room. It’s cursed, or has had a spell put on it, or something. Whoever stands behinds it suddenly becomes immediately and absolutely incapable of telling the truth about anything.
Okay, LS, it’s complicated, so I’ll explain slow. You see, you’re right, we all appeared here, well not all of us, but Adam and Eve and such, appeared on earth about 4000 years ago, right after Earth came to be. And they quickly got busy with going forth with offspring, then there were those years of intensive incest and all; but the big thing is, part of God’s plan was to leave fake clues around like dinosaur bones and a sense of history. See, God’s actually putting together a big mystery here and he likes to leave red herrings.
And no, of course we’re not from Mars because Earth is and has always been the Center of the Universe.
One feels like a Kremlinologist from the days of old trying to figure out the real meaning of this announcement. Has the intelligence community decided to save its long-term integrity for the post-Bush years by going honest? Are they getting even for having been scape-goated for the WMD business? Are they teamed with the military who understand what a disaster attacking Iran would be? Has the “realist” faction gained ascendency within the Bush WH? Has Cheney been undermined?
(Actually our spies are just acknowledging the accuracy of the UN agencies have been saying all along… )
Also interesting will be the WH spin on this. Our brilliant Iraq invasion scared Iran into giving up its program. John Bolton’s mustache made them do it. Etc. They will be certain to declare victory. Hopefully this will be followed by declaring victory in Iraq and withdrawing.
Since when have the Iranians been expanding their Empire all over the region???? A couple of years ago???? Since they are Aye-rabs, overtakin’ the Middle East should be a piece of cake. Oui ou Non?
And Paul Wolfowitz is coming back to tell it like it is. Am I dreaming this?
Schuster on Countdown just said “Sex on the City” (from Daily Kos I think). That is, the Rudy Giuliani scandal, with taxpayers subsidizing his adulterous affair with his mistress Judy.
Anyone else think that Karl Rove’s apparent aversion to being touched isn’t an issue very often?
And then there is Karl Rove. Rove and Wolfowitz. Merry Christmas… Democrats.
Iranians are not Arabs. They are Persians.
Not sure whether you were using snark there.
I think it was the other way around. I saw KO use that phrase before Daily Kos co-opted it. At least it doesn’t have ‘gate’ in it!
That is exactly what a neighbor lady told my sons.
We had just been to see an exhibit of dino and mastodon bones (and replicas of skeletons).
I think God has more to do than act like some B-movie villain, going around salting various archeological digs.
I’m close to concluding the Republicans are blowing it. Badly.
Heh, Wasn’t that what Hadley was just spewing err… spinning… *g*
Bolton’s mustache? Could that be where Saddam hid his WMDs, you know right under his nose?
I would feel differently about Obama if he had supported the invasion of Iraq. He didn’t. I would feel differently about Obama if he had voted for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment. He didn’t. It is not really fair to insinuate that he is as much of a war-monger as HRC.
After reading Clinton’s statement my first thought is:
Screw health care, we need to fix education first.
Presumablably this mosh was written by someone with an advanced college degree, likely in Communications.
(BTW – Spellcheck returns 404)
*rubs eyes. ‘Arrgh! Do not like this typeface! All squinchy.*
The whole intell gathering thing needs to be looked at. Too much going on in the shadows and why the hell did we have to wait almost 5 years to have this NIE released?
If I am not mistaken OUR tax dollars are paying for that NIE and I would like to know why it was sitting in a file cabinet gathering dust? Who put it there? And with all this chat about skeery Iran why didn’t someone open up the file cabinet and proclaim… Here it is we done some spying and there’s nothing to get worked up about.
So again we ask, Cui Bono?
Republican lie, hide the NIE and people were set to die. WHY WHY WHY?
True. At least Hillary has got the balls to vote on her convictions, misguided though they may be.
Obama is worse. A fence sitter, waiting to see which way the wind blows. He’s a posturer. One who will say what he needs to say to look good.
part of God’s plan was to leave fake clues around like dinosaur bones and a sense of history. See, God’s actually putting together a big mystery here and he likes to leave red herrings.
Seems to me that God’sense of humor has altogether sucked since November of 2000.
There are apparently two time lines:
1. When was Bush officially briefed on the final findings of the NIE? Hadley says: “last Tuesday.”
2. When did Bush first learn about the intelligence indicating that Iraq had stopped its weapons program? Hadley says: “within the last few months.”
Obama didn’t vote on Iraq.
His statement then were powerfull and impressive.
Since his election to the Senate, not so much.
He’s my Senator, and my contacts with his office have been unimpressive to say the lease.
No off to do our Presnit’s bidding and shop.
The point is that both Obama and Hillary seek to exploit issues rather than lead on them.
If the Dems win big next year, and I think they will, I want my party to concentrate on dealing with Joe Lieberman. Among other things.
707! Couldn’t even smell it, if it bit him… ;-)
David Schuster is just so cute. I love what he just did for his nephew!
All the candidates wanna look tough because we know are convinced we live in the millenium of terra. You can’t be talking peace and love and expect to the MIC bucks and the MSM support, cos they love them a good war. It’s good for biz.
We really need to get the good for biz motivation out of everything this nation does.
We gotta act because it’s good for the people in country.
Ann in AZ, how did you get spaces in your name? (gnashes teeth)
my problem with Obama claiming he didn’t support the war was he was not in the Senate at the time and in no position to vote either way, but he continues to ACT like he voted on it.
remember allen ginsberg’s hum bomb? i do. what do we do? who do we bomb? dedicated to liarputz and his cheery staff!
Bush just found out about the NIE done in 2003 inn the past few months? Ha? Did he lie about the NIE?
Drop the ‘c’… He would be a perfect replacement for F*cker, if not him, then Rachel… *swoon* ;-)
Were his lips moving?
I had no idea this dynamic was going on in Iraq.
AP – Iraqis have not made enough progress toward learning to manage their security forces because they’ve had to divert too much attention to continued violence and sectarianism, congressional investigators said Monday.
From my scandals list (item 280)
Bush at an October 17, 2007 news conference on the nuclear aspect:
And Cheney before Washington Institute for Near East Peace (WINEP) on October 21, 2007:
So if they have known about this for months, how is it that they were making these statements in October a few weeks before the release of the November 2007 NIE?
Salted a heck of a lot more than some digs. Big Fella messed around with the cosmic background radiation, too, and various things that the Hubble Space Telescope has dectected, which drove the age of the universe back past 13 billion years. Right after that, NASA decided not to maintain the ’scope, and there was no sign that the fundy White House aides were unhappy. To me there seemed to be a connect-the-dots whiff to the whole thing. Very happy to see that Hubble now WILL be maintained and upgraded. Politics and Science don’t gt on well together, but that kind of ‘Faith’ gets on even worse. Real faith, though? Well, something has to keep you at the eyepiece all those long nights.
as much as i despise lieberman, i don’t think he’s the source of all the anti-iran nonsense. after all the house had their own insane anti-iran bills that passed with overwhelming majorities of both Rs and Ds. from hugh’s list:
We really need to get the good for biz motivation out of everything this nation does.
We gotta act because it’s good for the people in country.
I want some of what you’re smoking. You inhaled, didn’t you?
I didn’t register. I just logged in. So it took my old login. Just lucky I guess. I figured I’d just try to login first before trying to re-register, and it worked. I can’t figure out why it didn’t seem to work so well for others, unless they didn’t try to login, but went directly to register.
He will. He said so at YearlyKos. Are you and Lahoma going to Chicago for Netroots Nation?
The whole “war on terror” frame has everyone in this race speaking and acting like idiots.
Soros is absolutely correct, we need to lose this term.
Obviously we need to understand the threat that Iran presents. Iran is planning to nuke us. They want our oil.
Hmmm… That could be an explanation why Hadley was saying, read: spinning, that we just realized it last Tuesday… Yep! …and pigs fly…
The NIE that we are talking about is the November 2007 NIE. It reverses the finding of a 2005 IC report. The November 2007 NIE states that Iran suspended a nuclear weapons program in Fall 2003.
The issue at hand is that Bush and Cheney still made belligerent statements about Iran and its nuclear program after they were aware of this latest NIE per Hadley.
Ann in AZ, I tried that too. sniffs. Didn’t recognize me or my email. Said we were…Invalid!
Netroots Nation for 2008 is going to be in Austin. Earl registration ended 11/30.
as much as i despise lieberman, i don’t think he’s the source of all the anti-iran nonsense.
There is a huge academic/ corporate/ stink tank/ pundit/ conspiracy of jingo hubris that is driving all this
“But the truth is, Joe Lieberman once again led everyone over a cliff introducing a stupid and bellicose Iran bill.”
Led by Lierberman? Sorry Jane, she is my senator, however, in my view Hillary alone bears responsibility for her vote despite appeals from her constituents not to support the Kyl-Lieberman bill. Same thing happened when we rang her office begging her to vote NAY regarding authorization to invade Iraq. These are 2 votes I and most New Yorkers will not forget or forgive. More power to Obama for pointing to her poor judgment!
I’ve been posting here since November 2005. I must admit, I miss the format and intimacy of the old days.
At the time, a writer at the old New York Observer declared himself addicted to FDL. It was my introduction.
Oh yeah…that’s right, I remember now….
And…what I heard on creationist teevee once was that dinosaurs are actually gekkos that grow forever, the ones you buy at the pet store, that they grow for hundreds of years and get to be dinosaurs eventually, and that explains why those people in the bible were actually hundreds of years old, and had babies when they were hundreds of years old…
So, when you buy a pet gekko, it is actually a dinosaur.
Really, I heard this on creationist teevee…this is not snark. They believe this.
I haven’t seen any 20′ gekkos out there lately, but I’m sure there is a logical explanation…
Then I’m just lucky (in this event, anyway), I guess!
Ummmm….I never use snark.
Well, I miss Al very much, too.
You may have noticed that the person he had the head to head with seems to be missing.
After he got a FrontPage status.
But, who am I to question?
I miss Al’s contributions.
Apples and Cinnamon.
We have to move on.
You’re right. They want him there to influence discussions, to keep secrets, and to be certain of their place in history. What kind of FOOLS would bring this inflatable person back in?
Bada Bing!!
Impeach!!!
We haven’t been to the windy city for about ten years. When we go there we spend most of our time in the blues clubs. We love Chicago. But have no plans to go there soon. ;0)
Jayt, that’s it! It’s the freaking podium!
J:
I think it’s the podium in the WH Press Room. It’s cursed, or has had a spell put on it, or something. Whoever stands behinds it suddenly becomes immediately and absolutely incapable of telling the truth about anything.
whatever is driving it (and i’m agnostic about what it is) – it’s a problem with a large majority of the dems in both chambers of congress…. especially the dem leadership in the house and senate.
Hah! Good one!
The same ones that hired in the first place…???
Preverts.
But it’s fair to say he’s chickenshit.
especially the
dem leadershipinsane jackasses in the house and senate!Bush blowhard is outta his league in challenging Iran. Iran has the protection of Russia, India, and China. Ever wonder where all those US dollars were going for ‘made in China’ goods?: The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced 10th November 2007
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk – a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier….The Americans had no idea China’s fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pag…..ge_id=1811
China needs energy and will support Iran: Two examples of India and China investing in the same hydrocarbon exploration fields are in Iran and in Sudan. In the development and exploration of Yadavaran field in Iran, India’s ONGC Videsh Limited (OVL) has a 20% stake, while China holds a 50% stake. The exploration fields are estimated to have a daily production of 300,000 barrels of oil. Along with this, both India and China are investing in natural gas imports from Iran.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/S…..9Df04.html
And since China is the second largest holder of US debt, the US bombing Iran just ain’t gonna happen.
What did Schuster do for his nephew?
Do all you all know about this?http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news…..982640.ece
Funny,
Jerking in the Dark.
You know how they always introduce the oddballs section with some little blurb about some little known historical incident or something. Well, Shuster used that time to do a little thing on how his nephew won a spelling bee, saying his name on national TV. I bet the kid is on cloud nine.
Dangnabit. I am cursed by the gods tonight. That’s the last link. I’d use preview, but it’s not working for me, sorry. I’m trying to http://www.npr.org/news/specials/elec…..v-20071203
Article re: NPR and Iowa Public Radio Democratic Debate on radio Tuesday.
I know that, thanks. All registered and hoteled up! Just curious about who else is going, and would love to meet more pups! Just blew it saying Chicago.
I just had a thought… as wild ass guess as it gets… I wonder if the NIE was released under pressure from the Saudis, in a “stop threatening, release the report or we will go to petro-euros”….
certainly comes close on the heels of the “peace conference”
who knows?
Sigh, drop the ‘c’… He announced his nephew’s elementary school achievement in learning the Times Table up to 12 the quickest… Pretty classy… *g*
You know, I meant to read that article today when I saw it (I think it was on the headline news section on the front page.) Guess I’ll read it now. Thanks for reminding me.
I’ve linked a few. The front page is about the Iraqis in Syria suffering for lack of food. The one @ 150 is about the U.S. stating it has the right to kidnap foreign citizens (if they’re suspected of crimes). Who’d they say this to? The British gov.’t. The latest link @153 is about a Dem. debate on NPR tomorrow.
I found a new post upstairs.
The Bush administration is exploding or imploding over Iran. The distinction could be critical.
PW up top with a new thread.
But I don’t think either Bush or Cheney cares about what happens to our economy. Maybe you’re right, but it would be something else. Something more close to home for them. It’s clear they couldn’t give a rip about what happens to us.
I’m telling you the British Judiciary is gonna rebuff America’s extraterritorial claims… Kagan is getting his *ss handed to him by Dan Abrams about the Iran NIE, must see tv… ;-)
Cool of Schuster! I hope is was his nephew through his new marriage. That would make it even more special!
Just read the first three paragraphs, and my impression is already that we are fast becoming the scourge of the world.
Does anyone know anything about Obama’s “present” votes in the IL Senate on choice issues?
Have to amend. CTuttle was right. It was the times tables to 12. The kid is probably still on cloud nine.
Gay rumours eclipse Condi’s glory moment
Say it. The AIPAC Lobby. Lots of fly paper to get stuck in. I didn’t say ‘bad jews’ or any such nonsesne like that.
AIPAC as a singularly strong influence on politicians.
I have heard he hates the gays with a passion. (I’m joking)
Always late, so always EPU’d, usually to thank someone. This time two someones: Sara@57 and Eureka Springs@70. What an interesting interview of political feminist Arvonne Fraser by Garrison Keillor. Thanks so much.
Y’know Jane. All three of the major Democratic candidates have been tainted indelibly with the A*P*C influenza.
Recall that Obama said in 20004: “[A] nuclear-armed Iran is an unacceptable risk to us and our allies…With John Kerry as commander-in-chief, we will never wait for a green light from abroad when our safety is at stake.” So much with having a unified effort to deal with Iran, and there is not a hint that he wouldn’t attack without provocation. Iran obtaining nuclear weapons would be sufficient to trigger it.
Obama on September 24, 2006 suggested “surgical missile strikes” on Iran may become necessary. “[L]aunching some missile strikes into Iran is not the optimal position for us to be in” given the ongoing war in Iraq, Obama told the Chicago Tribune. “On the other hand, having a radical Muslim theocracy in possession of nuclear weapons is worse,” he said. Obama went on to argue that military strikes on Pakistan should not be ruled out if “violent Islamic extremists” were to “take over.”
Uhmmmm!! That sounds like pre-emptive attacks are just part and parcel of Obama’s policy repertoire as well.
Obama was one of the first Democratic Co-Sponsor’s of S.970, a bill many feel was even more provocative towards Iran than the Kyl-Lieberman Resolution, containing almost identical language designating the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a “terrorist organization” while lacking the Dodd Amendment specifically stating the Bill did not represent an authorization for any attack on Iran.
And John Edward’s speeches to the Herzliya Conference and AIPAC earlier this year show that he is just as supportive of preemptive attacks on Iran and considers Iran a “terrorist state” just as much as Obama and Clinton. Edward’s has attacked Obama’s willingness to have unconditional talks with Iran, saying that he would require such fantastic requirements as making Iran recognize Israel, admit and terminate their support to Palestinian and Lebanese groups fighting Israel, and to agree that they would reach an agreement with the US in any negotiation or face international sanctions. These are preconditions that no Iranian leader would agree to. In fact the former President of Iran, Khatami, as well as the Nobel Peace Prize Winner, Shirin Ebadi, has warned the West against making any such “preconditions” as they would simply sabotage the negotiations before they started.
Yet Edwards has insisted of “poisoning” the effort before they can even occur.
your comment describes one of the reasons i’m so unenthusiastic about the 2008 elections.
Obama was one of the first Democratic Co-Sponsors of S.970 which stated
“8) The Secretary of State should designate the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a Foreign Terrorist Organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1189) and the Secretary of the Treasury should place the Iranian Revolutionary Guards on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists under Executive Order 13224 (66 Fed. Reg. 186; relating to blocking property and prohibiting transactions with persons who commit, threaten to commit, or support terrorism).”
http://www.govtrack.us/congres…..l=s110-970
He’s also the Co-AUTHOR of the IRAN SANCTIONS ENABLING ACT (H.R. 2347/S. 1430), legislation he sponsored in May. The bill would clear the way for more states to divest their pension funds from companies that support Iran’s oil and gas industry. Iran uses the revenue it generates from its energy sector to finance its pursuit of nuclear weapons and support for terrorist groups.
He stated:
“Today’s passage of the Iran Sanctions Enabling Act by the House of Representatives is an important step forward in our efforts to stop Iran from acquiring the nuclear weapons it seeks. Allowing a radical theocracy that sponsors terrorism and threatens its neighbors to possess such dangerous weapons is a risk we cannot afford to take.”
“ We have the ability to take more action unilaterally. Citizens in many states have taken matters into their own hands, moving to divest their pension funds of companies that support Iran’s oil and gas industry, which provides the revenue Iran uses to pursue nuclear weapons and sponsor terrorist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas.”
“The Iran Sanctions Enabling Act, once enacted, will provided needed information about which companies are supporting Iran’s energy industry, clarify that state and local governments have the authority to divest of such companies, and provide legal protection for those governments that wish to do so.”
“I am very encouraged by this important step forward in our campaign to prevent Iran from gaining nuclear weapons. I will work closely with the Senate leadership and my colleagues to get this bill passed and to the President’s desk as quickly as possible.”
http://obama.senate.gov/press/…..urges_swi/
Looks like McCain’s revival was heralded too soon.
What I want to know is whether Hillary (and the other Dem Senators) knew Iran was no nuke threat when they voted for Kyl-Lieberman. If they did, then it was all for show and Hillary let us believe she was ’strong’ when it was really b.s. Her continual triangulation is getting very annoying.
What I want to know is how exactly Obama plans to end the nasty partisanship Republicans have been using for several decades now as their primary means of getting elected. His naivete is getting annoying.
Get past the garbage and just vote for Edwards.
Selise…what I’m upset about is the unbridled enthusiasm…bordering on hero-worship of various candidates. The fact that so many progressives have started attacking Clinton while ignoring the fact that those that they support have very deep flaws is just incredible to me. Yet their own candidates successfully, and not a little hypocritically, allow their supporters to think that THEY are extremely different from Clinton.
Edwards has benefitted from his being out of the Senate for several years. He thus hasn’t been tied to a legislative record. But when one looks at his statements before groups like A*P*C he is demonstrably just as oily a politician as Clinton. He says one thing to the Zionist lobby and another before progressives. For example, when Ezra Klein called Edwards on his hawkish statements to Herzliya…Edwards basically lied about what he said there. He said that he really hadn’t stated that the US would NEVER allow Iran to develop nuclear weapons…instead he said that he wouldn’t consider hypotheticals.
It seems that Edwards and Obama are quite adept at this capacity to sound “all things to all people”. They almost never provide enough clarity to really offend people. In that regard, at least Hillary is much more of a target.
imo, your analysis is on the money. there are, apparently, deep flaws in each of the three candidates. we do our selves no help by ignoring these problems now – when we have the most (still only a little) power to persuade the candidates to reconsider.
Isn’t the position that Iran will not be allowed to have nuclear weapons the standard Democratic Party position which has existed for decades? Isn’t the idea to defend Israel’s existence against stated opponents?
Show where Edwards position isn’t standard issue?
Are you suggesting that a candidate or president wouldn’t continue to make such statements, even if they were in fact having discussions behind closed doors?
One criticism of Obama was that he appeared willing to naively rush to a summit meeting without any preparations by State and risk embarrassment. Are you suggesting that’s better than maintaining the public appearance of continuing our standard policy toward Iran before anything substantial could be achieved?
I don’t like Hillary’s sabre rattling (”prepare for the next war”) or vote on Kyl-Lieberman, but Obama’s senate bill (what was it S-970?) was no better.
Aren’t they deviating from the standard Democratic Party line and free-lancing it? Isn’t it better to ‘keep all the options on the table’ as Edwards has suggested?
I think your reading of their behaviors doesn’t differentiate very well. I feel certain that if we were talking about relations with the former Soviet Union there would be more interest in the details of their statements and votes. You reduce it to muddle and lump Edwards in without proper attention to their differences.
Mark H…ALL the Democratic candidates have said “I keep all options on the table”…particularly when they are speaking of compelling Iran to stop their nuclear programs. Obama has been the one that said he wouldn’t require preconditions on negotiations. Edwards has been the most specific over what he would require of Iranian leaders even before he would talk with them. And his preconditions would essentially prevent any negotiations.
Of course, like Reagan with the Ayatollah Khomenei, he might actually “negotiate with terrorists” even when he said he wouldn’t. I guess that is what you are saying. But it seems to me that there would never be any way out of the situation.
As regards to Edward’s stand on Israel I believe that his position is actually to the right of Clinton and Obama. He praised Sharon, has argued that Israel has an absolute right to pre-emptively attack any threats to its security. He supported the invasion of Lebanon…perhaps the most extreme case of disproportionate response since the Iraq invasion. Clinton was actually BOOED by A*P*C for insisting that a two-state solution required Israel required territorial concessions by Israel to create a climate of success for Abbas. Edwards said that Isarel should make no more concessions and that he would work for Israel to be admitted to NATO, an utterly implausible idea that demonstrates just how isolated Edwards is from international opinion.
May I suggest another way of looking at this: no candidate will have a perfect history on past voting. In Obama’s case missed votes may be an issue but there is simply too little to go when it comes to the national scene. Not to diss his Chicago experience. But getting Iraq right is not a key to the White House IMHO. All three Democrats have strenghths and weaknesses. The infighting is damaging. When Hillary led the MSM urged Obama to attack her and they cheered. When Hillary struck back they complained that she was being negative. With Rove in the mix one would think Democrats would stop and think. But no Robert Reich whacks Hillary and raises Obama the noble one. Then Arianna disses Bill for his stand on the Iraq War (she is reflexively anti Clintons) but David Fiderer comes out in HuffPost with a piece that backs Bill’s assertions. But will the MSM take the trouble to read it. No. Dissing Hill and Bill is so easy, cheap and fits in with the narrative. The Rove intervention tells me a lot about the Democrats capacity (very limited) to win an election as opposed to winning an argument.