CBS' 60 Minutes had a shocking story last night on the almost total obliteration of the Christian community in Iraq, all of it happening under the US occupation. And no one seemed more shocked than the CBS reporter, Scott Pelley, who apparently did not know that a brutally thorough sectarian cleansing has been going on under our watch. And the worst of it apparently happened in the last six months.
Christians have been in the area now known as Iraq for almost two thousand years, and by 2000, their numbers had grown to over 1 million. Part of the reason for that, it seems, is that Saddam Hussein's regime, as brutal and murderous as it was towards those who challenged his rule, remained somewhat tolerant of Christians in a land otherwise dominated by different Islamic sects. There were hundreds of Christian churches in and around Baghdad, and they operated in the open.
The US occupation and overthrow of Saddam changed that. Extremist Sunni and Shia militia began their sectarian cleansing, and it seems the only thing they agreed on was that neither wanted the Christians in their religiously segregated neighborhoods. Christians were intimidated, threatened, kidnapped and forced to leave or be killed. According to 60 Minutes, the few Christians remaining in Iraq live in fear and worship only in secret underground places, unable to attend their now bombed or boarded-up churches. Most Iraqi Christians are either dead, refugees in other countries, or in hiding.
Pelley followed the last remaining Anglican chaplain, Reverend Canon Andrew White to a secret undergound service:
"The room is full of children, it’s full of women, but I don’t see the men. Where are they?" Pelley remarked.
"They are mainly killed. Some are kidnapped. Some are killed. In the last six months things have got particularly bad for the Christians. Here in this church, all of my leadership were originally taken and killed," White explained. "All dead. But we never got their bodies back. This is one of the problems. I regularly do funerals here but it's not easy to get the bodies."
Pelley seemed shocked and genuinely surprised when the Reverend told him how bad things have been recently:
"You were here during Saddam’s reign. And now after. Which was better? Which was worse?" Pelley asked.
"The situation now is clearly worse” than under Saddam, White replied.
"There’s no comparison between Iraq now and then," he told Pelley. "Things are the most difficult they have ever been for Christians. Probably ever in history. They’ve never known it like now."
60 Minutes also helped CBS' viewers make the connection between sectarian cleansing and the lower levels of reported violence since last year. While overall violence is down in neighborhoods like Dora, which used to have over a dozen operating Christian churches, that is because the "cleansing" is complete. Everyone the militias wanted out is dead, fled as displaced persons/refugees, or in hiding.
A woman Pelley interviewed explained how her small sons would be kidnapped and disappear if they went out. Another man shows pictures of his children, all shot. A US Colonel explains that the remaining Christians don't want overt US protection because they would quickly become targeted as collaborators. Pelley reads a letter one family received, threatening everyone with death. He follows story after story, all the same. C&L has more.
All of the major Republican presidential candidates, echoing the White House, assure us the surge is working, that things are much better in Iraq. They say we're winning, that Iraq is a generational ideological battlefield.
These men believe invading a Muslim country that posed no threat to America was a good idea, but not one of them has explained to their predominantly Christian base that the policies they embraced not only killed or displaced milliions of Muslims but also opened a pandora's box that obliterated a million member Christian community. Someone should ask them about that.
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“The last six months” — the time of The Surge, in other words.
Meanwhile, the Brits pull out of Basra in early September — and violence immediately drops by 90% and stays dropped.
Hello?!?! GOP/Media Complex, are you listening? Or do you still have your fingers in your ears?
Scarecrow!
Caw, caw! Good morning Scarecrow.
Shorter GOP/Media Complex: la, la, la, la, la, la, we can’t hear you.
Good morning. We have a think blanket of wet snow, this a.m. Interesting how things are so much quieter when it snows.
I caught onto this early on. I forget when, but perhaps autumn of 05, I figured out at the rate at which Christians were disappearing (being killed plus emigrating), they would all be gone from Iraq in 5 years. Sounds like it happened more quickly.
Not sure where their fingers are.
Actually I’m surprised that 60 minutes is interested in this. I used to watch that program like clockwork. Stopped a few years ago when it became irrelevant (and when I found the blogs).
Good morning Scarecrow!
Trying to get used to the new digs. I sure hope they will resurrect the archive access and tags.
My sister married into the Armenian Orthodox Church. They are currently worried about the friends/relatives in Iraq. The Bishop of that church in Iraq is currently in Scandinavia with no ability to return to his flock. The blind eye to the persecution of the Christians (of all stripes) has been part of the war’s unintended consequences.
I love the quiet of snow
oohh . . . . we just got a whole lot of cold rain. I love snow. And yes, snow is a great sound absorber, one of my favorite things about it.
Now if they could only do that with the Moslems, there would be either no people left there or no religion to fight about.
I vote for erasing religion and building secular societies.
Muslim distrust and dislike of Christians is regrettably pretty understandable at the moment, given the predominant religion of their oppressors.
I’m with SanderO @ 11.
Yeah, right, McCain, the surge is working…if you don’t think about those pesky suffering Iraqis, Christian and Muslim and…..
Thanks for this posting, Scarecrow. Watching Scott Pelley’s report on 60 Minutes was heart-wrenching. That Anglican bishop who walks in public wearing his cross and carrying his Bible has more courage than all of BushCo.
George Bush and Dick Chee-knee, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell, and the vampirish Wolfowitz who has risen from his political crypt…and the truly evil Karl Rove…are …. well, I’ll let you guys fill in the blank/s. Never have I found more contemptible “human” beings.
Look at the surge, don’t look at the reality. Somebody observed some threads back that BushCo uses “support the troops” as their human shields. Surely there must be a special place in hades for this corrupt gang.
The problem isn’t with religion itself, it’s with the practice of it. Just like with communism, no one has ever tried to follow it they way it was designed.
Oh puleease. That’s the oldest excuse in the book. If you design a system that no one can follow, the problem is with the system, not with the followers.
Hard to get rid of ego, greed and lust for power. Not everyone has it, but those who are in the public eye are the ones who tend to be the most corrupt.
There really are lots of people who have faith and beliefs and live good lives. They just don’t happen to be the ones in charge. So what else is new?
George Bush is enjoying his genocide. He really is. He could care less if IRAQI Christians are losing their lives under his nose. He sleeps well.
Wonder if the ever so offended Dana Perino was trying to divert Helen from inquiring into this.. The base just might find this troublesome (or they might not, who knows).
Has anyone noticed a reaction to this story in the MSM this morning, I don’t have the 24 hour news channels.
Isn’t it sad that it takes the killing and cleansing of Christians to make some Americans sit up and get concerned about what’s happening in Iraq?
Muslims die and are forced to move and become refugees, some forced to send their daughters out to be prostitutes in order to survive.
But only till it’s Christians being killed and made refugees do people really get upset!
Scarecrow, thanks, as always.
Snark
But, but, I thought the surge was working.
End snark.
RevDeb,
Unfortunately within religious texts are the roots of the problems of bigotry, and division. Sure there is a lot of “good stuff” in most religions. But they can’t seem to remove the bad stuff. It’s like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
Religion has oppressed women and continues to. And the justification is found in their “books”. Religion enforces tribalism and separation. I don’t see some religions coexisting with others. At best they retreat and life apart, as do the ultra orthodox jews and so forth.
Religion divides. It’s just another means of dividing. That’s how I see it.
I think they are more concerned about the “War on Christmas.” That’s what their icons dwell on. War on Christians, not so much.
So much for the leadership of the so-called “values voters.”
The Republicans will bring their own sectarian wars into America this week. Baptist Minister Mike Huckabee has become a serious candidate, challenging Mormon Mitt Romney’s leads in Iowa and New Hampshire. In the meantime, there are reports that Romney has decided to make a speech on his religion — a la John Kennedy — on Thursday.
One group thinks the other is a bunch of cultists, and the other thinks the others are illiterate fundies. And CNN will be touting the religious wars in America, while Bill O worries about the war on Christmas. Meanwhile, a million Iraqi Christions are missing.
Yep. So any system you design should have that as an integral motivator. Don’t deny it, embrace it.
But that is not the sole aspect of human nature so the system design (Ha ha ha, here I am referring obliquely to intelligent desig. Not.) should allow plenty of range for the full human being.
Religion focuses on being good, except when religion itself decides it’s time to be massively bad. It’s not comprehensive for humans.
I’m for secularism and the Golden Rule. Can’t see why you need a lot more than that as yor guide.
That nails it, TheraP. That’s what’s at the root of our problems.
Creationism will be debated in presidential politics.
This is a joke in the 21st century. Huckie believes the earth is 6,000 years old.
Can’t we just get on with progress and rid ourselves of these silly religious debates which waste ink and always proves that there is no evidence of god.
Missing: A Million Iraqi Christians
is there yet another opportunity for george bush to make a comedy routine?
george bush’s criminally unnecessary Iraq war: the gift that keeps on giving.
.
and on that subject of mitt’s problem-I like this
http://www.thecarpetbaggerrepo…..more-13787
Great thought. Hadn’t considered the domestic political aspects if this particurlar genocide. It’s a lot smaller than the others going on in Iraq, but could roil the “base.”
I don’t disagree. That’s the way it has been throughout history, mainly because the it has always been conflated with politics. It has been about power and keeping people in line. If you can manufacture a system that lays out the rules and hierarchy and tie it to superstition, so much the better.
Frankly I’ve had my fill of that kind of religion. But it won’t stop me from practicing mine with the intent of making this a better place and lifting up the values of justice, equity and compassion.
makes me think about what will happen to the jews living in iran if we or israel attack.
good morning, all… coffee is ready.
the MSM noticing 60 Minutes report? nah… Scarbororough’s panel is still having hissy fits over the general that asked questions at the You Tube debate the other night…
much more important, doncha know…
Before we get into religious wars on FDL, I think this was probably a pretty good idea.
Good morning!
Wow. And we talk about the oppression under Saddam!
Check. Don’t suppose the Israeli neocons are concerned about this any more than the U.S. neocons are concerned about Christians in Iraq.
I don’t know if it’s the same kind of situation. There seems to be a very distinct difference in how the Iranians view Judaism vs The State of Is**al
OT Good news for Edwards
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes…..dsendorse/
Nor will I permit my lack of belief to prevent me from pursuing the same goals. Sounds like there’s room for common cause.
i agree with “don’t deny it” but i think we’ve made a mistake by embracing it.
Now if we could only get the dems to let the repigs have their own religious battles and stay away from it I’d be happy. The fact that the dem candidates feel the need to do religious pandering makes me so uneasy. They’d be better off staying out of that arena.
Okay, are the MSM gonna ask any of those dogly…er godly Christian preznitial candidates ’bout this?
I don’t know if it has been talked about at the lake, the very popular Iranian TV show about Jews in WW2?
This is not where I had first seen it, but it gives you the idea.
*crickets*
Yep. But to take D candidates’ sides for the moment, they got pummeled for years by the religious right before they caved in. I hope they realized that erea is over soon, and stop it quickly, though.
I think the founders thought they’d designed a Constitution that would withstand ego, greed and lust for power over time. And in most situations, it worked pretty well. They did not forsee what happens when the govt becomes captured by a radical regime that does not accept the Constitutional structure during a period in which the Congress is corrupted, the Courts are co-opted, and the media is complicity.
I left my take on religion versus secular on the prior thread. Unfortunately, it’s not nearly as succinct, accurate or appropriate as quoting the first Amendment.
the problem is that it was blatant pandering. And it looked like it. The reactions they got were pretty predictable.
There is some good news today. Chavez lost his bid for the perpetual presidency at the ballot box.
Awfully quite here this morning.
ot - congress is back in session this week (senate today, house tomorrow). there are only about a third the typical number (60-80) of congressional hearings scheduled for the week (i’ll update tomorrow morning in case more get added today).
here are some that might be of interest:
tuesday, 10:30 am - Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions
To hold hearings to examine developing a comprehensive response to food safety.
wednesday, 9:30 am - House Energy and Commerce
Subcommittee on Telecommunications and the Internet Hearing
Oversight of the Federal Communications Commission: Media Ownership
wednesday, 2:30 pm Senate Judiciary
To hold hearings to examine the foreclosure crisis, focusing on helping families save their homes.
wednesday, 2:30 pm - House Foreign Affairs
After Annapolis: Next Steps in the Middle East Peace Process
thursday, 2:30 pm - Senate Foreign Relations
U.S. Foreign assistance to Pakistan
i’m not so sure i think that’s good news.
How we are informed about our actions and ethics is at the heart of the religious debate.
I don’t practice a religion. I practice ethical and moral behavior. How is that possible? I don’t need to read allegories and model my life after something someone else figured out was “right” behavior.
I simply treat all with respect and dignity and expect them to do the same, and not because they read it in some book. There are many examples of non religious right thinking and acting people to know that one does not “need” religion to behave properly in society and to know right from wrong.
The problem with religion as I see it, is that it so terribly flawed and has such a violent and ugly history how could one want to claim that as their heritage? All one needs to do is look at how the Catholic church as acted for the last 600 years and that should have anyone with a brain running in the opposite direction. Why can’t people be rational when it comes to religion?
Wow…a “dictator” who abides by elections. How quaint. ;)
It sure is quiet,
RevDeb, what’s being done for the Iraqi Christians in the church community?
Just as Bush/Cheney et al do not speak for all Americans, certain so-called Christian leaders do not speak for all of us who call ourselves Christians. I am neither leaving the country nor leaving the church, but working where I can to make them better places.
It is regrettable but probably human nature to identify with people who look like us or share common beliefs. Yes we all should be up in arms about the slaughter of Iraqi Muslims, as I believe most of us are here at FDL. But for the wider American public, if the loss of a million Christians finally becomes the 2×4 that gets them outraged, isn’t that a good thing?
Scarecrow! Where have you been? Mui now Mui1 (I hate being a four letter word.)
Hi selise, how was your vacation? *g*
The dems who start wearing their faith on their sleeves are making a bad move.
All the need to say is that we are all granted the right to practice our faith or even not have one and it is not a matter for the public square. If you want to discuss religion go to your church, temples, mosques and so forth. No discussion of religion.
Chavez will probably accept his defeat and try to work with what he has.
When anyone tries to attain dictatorial powers and is denied same is good news to me. The fact that it was a vote of the people and the results came out the way they did is also good news. Now if Chavez decides not to respect the will of the people and takes over anyway, that will not be good news.
Though we have cheered him on occasions when he has given 43 the finger, on the whole he’s not such a nice guy. It will be interesting to watch.
Doesn’t it depend on whom they decide to blame it on?
wasn’t tariq azziz a christian? Whatever happened to him. I wonder.
I wouldn’t know. I’m not a Christian and we’re not plugged into the network that would be paying attention—if there is such a network.
If NPR can be believed (never sure these days…) Chavez did a bit of hedging. And he still has power for 5 more years, and a lot can happen in that interim.
Did anyone watch MtP? Webb almost gave a kind of cherry view of Iraqi “progress.”
Sure wish we had a better fix on exactly what is going on down there. Hard to trust anything when oil is in the game. NPR quoted a conciliatory concession by Chavez.
It’s a nice day for contrasts. The purported U.S. enemy, Hugo Chavez, holds honest elections & doesn’t try to reverse them when he loses (and as it was his to lose, and his record on the economy has been very good; he pulled a real boner here). Meanwhile, U.S. purported ally, Prez Putin, pulls off a glorious victory in a rigged election.
By your friends (and your enemies) ye shall be known.
I’m wondering how one million people can disappear. They weren’t all killed, the statistics don’t support that number of deaths. They must have left Iraq, which is supported by the numbers. That means they are in Syria or Jordan. Iraqis are being kicked out of those countries, so where will they go? One of the issues of the religious right is worldwide persecution of Christians for their beliefs. They may have the problem of deciding whether to let them in here or sending them back to a dangerous future in Iraq.
to aid with lobbying of congress by phone and fax, i put together contact info for all 532 congress critters in the form of vCards (which can be used with most address book / email programs on pcs, macs and even some smart cell phones). you can download them from the following links (there’s also some additional info on their use):
House
Senate
Mr Chavez described the defeat as a “photo finish”, and urged followers not to turn it into a point of conflict.
Correspondents say the opposition could barely hide their delight and that the victory will put a brake on Mr Chavez’s self-styled “Socialist revolution”.
Celebrations by the opposition began almost immediately in the capital, Caracas, with activists cheering, beeping car horns and waving flags.
“Venezuela won today, democracy won today, and I am sure that this victory for the Venezuelan people will have a very important impact in the rest of Latin America,” Leopoldo Lopez, opposition mayor of Caracas’ Chaqua municipality, told the BBC.
‘Don’t feel sad’
The BBC’s James Ingham in Caracas says Mr Chavez had expected a big win and will be very disappointed.
However, he swiftly conceded and urged the opposition to show restraint.
“To those who voted against my proposal, I thank them and congratulate them,” he said. “I ask all of you to go home, know how to handle your victory.”
My Cuban friends worry about Chavez a lot.
I think it probably is good news, because it means Chavez didn’t fix the ballot, unlike our good non-communist friends in Russia. It’s about, what’s the word again?, democracy.As long as Chavez accepts it, it will make it harder for the right to question his legitimacy.
Ahem. I think Chavez was just trying to get rid of term limits. If you think tht’s equivalent to “dictatorial powers,” you must have the same problem with the U.S. constitution up unitl 1951.
BTW, if he were trying for dictatorial powers, he certainly wouldn’t have put it to a vote.
Meanwhile, U.S. purported ally, Prez Putin, pulls off a glorious victory in a rigged election.
chimp done looked into pooty-poot’s soul, so it’s all good. ;)
wow thanks selise, that’s incredible!
lots of countries don’t have term limits for president. i don’t think that’s necessarily a “dictatorial power”
do not the UK and germany not have term limits for their political leaders?
I honestly don’t know all that much about Chavez except that he pissed off big oil. I’d be interested to know his good and bads without the whole baggage of commie hating, special interest-type stuff.
I didn’t see 60 Minutes, but wonder if Scott Pelley’s horror was as great over the Iraqi Christians as it was over Monica Lewensky. He just couldn’t seem to grasp the lack of public outrage over that.
Brian Lehrer on wnyc.org, starting at 10:00EST has Facebook mess & voting results in Venzuela & Russia as his topics.
http://www.wnyc.org/shows/bl/episodes/2007/12/03
It was reported this morning on CNN that Chavez held this vote to prove to the world that Venezuela is a democracy. Had George Bush held a similar vote to prove America is, it would have been rigged by them for pro-fascist outcome. See?
We have a fig leaf democracy with rigged elections where only the rich can play.
I don’t think the course has been changed in Venezuela. Chavez was trying to help the people not the rich and powerful.
Are you aware of how many classical musicians there are in Venezuela? All the kids are into the classics. Here, rap, hip hop and who knows what they call music.
Part of Chavez’s referendum would have reduced Venezuela’s 8-hour working day to 6 hours.
One blog I’ve found that seems a little more sensible is
http://www.lanr.blogspot.com/
However, he doesn’t have the heft of Juan Cole, and he missed the vote outcome bigtime. If anyone knows of a more balanced, informative source on Latin America, do tell.
Face book is yest another way to have your life data mined.
What’s the point of these things like face book and my space? And I’ll add web cams to that.
People are opening up their lives to big brother and he is not even having to work to get in. WAKE UP!
Oops. Wrong link in my 84. Here’s the right one:
http://www.lanr.blogspot.com/
Clinton trying to help on the home mortgage/foreclosure front… at first glance, looks like it might be a good idea.
we need some leadership…
Ooh I like it. Naps in the middle of the day. Sounds like China.
Thanks. Will definitely check it out. I tend to think that I am not getting a very clear picture of Chavez via MSM or NPR.
And just for balance and to support us “Plague on both your houses” people (should that be “all”?), read the piece by Ed Vuillamy in yesterday’s Observer (on Guardian Unlimited)about the failure to find Radavan Karadijc and Ratko Mladijc, Christians who did the same to Moslems in Bosnia with, perhaps, too much help or at least not enough discouragement from the UK and the USA
Make sure you click on the corrected link at 86 or here it is again
http://www.lanr.blogspot.com/
Scarecrow -
60 Minutes never showed up on any of my stations last nite…..thanks so much for the update on this aspect of the war.
I remember Greg Palast writing that Chavez was trying to give Venezuala a Scandinavian style economy. Now am not sure Palast is not seeing with rosey vision, but it gives me something to chew on.
demi - if you are around, your email is not working.
Has anyone seen any response in the media to the 60 Minute report on the disappearance of Christians?
(I was “NZ Expat, now in KS,” but I couldn’t get in for a long time. It looks like I will be in the States for longer than a year now….maybe three or four, so I needed to change my tag. Ad Astra per Aspera is the Kansas state motto, meaning “To the stars through difficulties.” One of the better aspects of Kansas.)
Yep. Hard to get to the reality behind the “partisan” sides.
As an economist, I think I find some of his economic policies wrongheaded. I say “I think” because I really don’t know the details well enough to judge. The aim: to try tp bridge the “two economies” gap, couldn’t be more laudable. It’s a Q of how you try to do it.
But whatever your serious analysis of Chavez is, you gotta luv his performance at the U.N.
Okay so this was a referendum that was voted on accorting to eCAHNs link. And Chavez’s opposition looks pretty god darned thug like whether in Colombia or Venezuala.
Reminder that almost always you can find these reports online at the medium’s website. I’d expect to find Pelley’s report at cbsnews.com
Good morning
I’m thinking that when lookng back, if it will be us, the bloggers that will have saved this country.
In the same thread is the pundit reference to Iraqis returning to Baghdad in large numbers. Implying that it is willingly, not because they’re getting evicted from Syria and Jordan.
This will be spun to the base as:
“We must stay in Iraq to protect the remaining Christian women and children”
Good article in Guardian on how Iraqi insurgents are waiting out the U.S. surge, as well as going elsewhere. Here’s one key paragraph:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq…..68,00.html
That was a hoot. El Diablo.
The post has a link to last night’s show. See the words, “obliteration of the Christian community . . .” in the first line. If you’re color blind, as I am, it may be hard to see the different color for links.
Con pero sulphuric.
OT
on CSPAN now is a forum on the outloook in the housing market:
Annual Housing Forum
Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson will make remarks at the Second Annual Housing Forum, sponsored by the Office of Thrift Super-
vision. The forum will address the outlook for housing markets nationwide, the challenges and risks in the home mortgage market, key consumer protection issues and other topics.
Oh goody. Toll Brothers live on C-SPAN. I say goody because they moved into the town where my country house is and I’ve been hoping they’d go bust ever since. Last I bicycled thru, there were 9 McMansions on 30+ building sites, after 1-1/2 years.
A friend told me that Toll Brothers, pious R.C.s, made their big money by buying R.C. property that the church had to sell to settle sex abuse lawsuits.
Says that we should learn from this debacle so we don’t fo thru it again. Ahem. Plenty of other debacles preceding this that he could have learned from, had he a mind to learn.
a referendum that is voted on doesn’t exactly seem like a Machtergreifung
Chavez obviously got Chimpy mixed up with Cheney. Darth is the sulfur king.
2008 mortgage a.r.m. “reset’s” are going to be a doozy…
I scanned some other news sites and didn’t see that anyone else has picked this story up. Anyone see any MSM coverage of this besides/since the 60min piece?
I heard about this here. My initial thought was that this would be all over once I saw it here, especially with 60min breaking the story…